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Horrendously POV. The article reads as a defense of sexual exploitation of minors and an attack on anyone who attempts to call "pederasty" what it is in most nations - a crime. | Klaw Talk 16:48, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page -- Mistress Selina Kyle ( Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 20:03, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that you have one of those user boxes where it says you are against censorship, and so am I. But I could not help being a bit amused by that in light of your attempted deletion of my notice on the GLBT board. It is neither fair nor true to conflate pedophilia with pederasty, and the last person I would expect that of is someone with a certain degree of sensitivity to gender issues, which you certainly seem to possess. If any disgreement remains between us on this topic and you wish to resolve it, please let me know. Haiduc 16:56, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I have made several changes to the text introduced today and around the deletions made today by Haiduc, but I'm posting my comments here for anyone else who may come along later to this discussion.
The salient point in most of these edits is that pederasty by definition refers to sexual activity between an adult male and an adolescent boy. This means that whether the contact is commercial or noncommercial, consensual or non-consensual (assuming consent is even possible), it is all pederasty.
In general, I think that Haiduc's changes today leaned heavily towards making this article more of a defense of pederasty, rather than an article on what pederasty is and its current legal and social status.| Klaw ¡digame! 23:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Keith, I am afraid that your arguments work against, and not for you. Your invocation of the soapbox rule cuts both ways. The material you have tried to introduce into this article is exactly the kind which has no place in a neutral document. Let's look at just the latest crop, so as to save everyone's time here:
You know, there are many aspects of this that we can agree on, and I am perfectly comfortable documenting and discussing the abuses which plague illegal relations between children and adults. You have no argument from me whatsoever. I am not looking to whitewash anything here. But neither are we here to tar and feather. Haiduc 06:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I would be thrilled to include here any number of organizations which had declared themselves against pederasty per se. If my memory serves me right, I was the one who introduced the Catholic church, because they came right out and said so. But to let you belabor the message of the good people at ECPAT to suit your views?! Inappropriate. But really, I am afraid that we are increasingly talking at cross purposes here. Like the endless argument of "It is legal!" "NO, it is illegal!" Can't you see that we are both saying the same thing, that we are busily arguing whether the cup is half empty or half full??? As for your age figures (where did you ever dig those up, they seem unrealistic, see here and here), for the map I intend to use the ones in the Wikipedia article. As for your attempt at reductio ad absurdum, trying to limit the scope of discourse to a couple of restrictive dictionary definitions, I think it is appropriate to use a more inclusive definition of the practice, a modern sexological one which is in keeping with the extensive body of published material on this practice, whether in the past or in the present. It is after all included in the article. And you have still not answered my challenge to your inappropriate use of the NPOV tag. Haiduc 04:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
The article cannot both portray pederasty as a practice whose allegedly universal abusive nature is subject to widespread dispute, then proceed in the "criticisms" section to push the POV that pederasty is abusive by dubbing pederastic acts as "abuse" and "child molestation." This is an encyclopedia, guys and girls, not a personal advocacy web page. Stick to the facts. Corax 05:26, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The DSM IV criteria for diagnosing pedophilia reads in part: "Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 or younger)."
Notice that "prepubescent child" is clearly specified as the criterion, not any specific age, and that "13 or under" is used only to give a general idea of the age range of prepubescent children. Rendering in the second paragraph the definition of pedophilia as "an attraction to children under the age of 13" is thus inaccurate. Not only does it fail to identify the key criterion laid down in DSM IV -- that of prepubescence -- but it wrong implies that the age of 13 enjoys some sort of status as an official age below which youngsters only attract pedophiles, and above which youngsters no longer attract pedophiles. Corax 00:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that this entire page should be done away with. It is just trying to hide the real truth about pedophiles by call it, pederastic love. Khalif 14:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
This page continues to read as a defense of pederasty, deprecating all considerations of the practice's illegality and lack of acceptance in most cultures. In particular, I object to the introduction, which currently reads:
Pederasty is defined as "The erotic relationship between an adult male and a boy, generally one between the ages of twelve and seventeen, in which the older partner is attracted to the younger one who returns his affection" Vern L. Bullough in glbtq (see also the Oxford Classical Dictionary).
First of all, using an LGBT source on this topic violates Wikipedia:Reliable sources, both because of its orientation and because that source is itself poorly sourced (such as the claim that most pederastic relationships are consensual, with no study or supporting evidence to back it up). Second, the claim that the younger partner "returns his affection" presents no end of problems, as it eliminates any consideration of pederasty as the abuse of a teenager by an adult, and it neatly avoids the question of whether, say, a 14-year-old has the maturity to consent to a relationship with an adult. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is a policy, not a guideline, and an article that defends pederasty directly or via obfuscation is a clear violation. | Klaw ¡digame! 15:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I really don't understand Keithlaw's problem here. The article gives as thorough of a treatment to the argument that pederasty is an unnatural, inherently harmful abomination, as it does to the argument that sex between men and teenage boys is not harmful under all conditions.
Is his problem that one side of the story is getting too much air time? If so, I fail to see how. Is his problem that the article does not conclude that pederasty is a codeword for universally destructive sexual molestation of small children? If so, he needs to consider that a variety of studies indicate that pederastic relationships are viewed positively by the younger participants long after they they've ended. As an encyclopedia, Wikipedia cannot make conclusive statements that are not backed by conclusive evidence. If his problem is that a definition of pederasty is given that he doesn't like, he needs to deal with it. Encyclopedias should not tailor their content according to people's preferences. It should conform solely to verifiable facts. And the fact is that the Oxford Classical Dictionary -- not a "gay" source by any stretch of the imagination -- gives a different definition of pederasty than webster's dictionary. Both meanings are frequently used. As such, both should be included. Corax 04:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Keith, you have not answered any of the four points I raised. Instead, you have proceded to flog a reductionist definition as the only definition that is valid. Unfortunately it is the one that is least valid since it does not address pederasty as a cultural phenomenon, the subject of countless academic and popular works. I will leave it to you to inform all those scholars and writers that they have misunderstood the field of discourse.
Part of the problem here is that "pederasty" refers to two separate groups of entities: relationships and activities. The term has been used (here too) interchangeably and I am not sure how to deal with this conflict. But subsuming the relationships into the activities, and then subsuming all activities into that subset which are against the law - which seems to be your aim - is propagandistic and neither reasonable nor viable.
As for your attempt to discredit the definition because it does not address all possible aspects of pederastic relationships, please take a look at the Marriage definition and picture to yourself (from personal experience or otherwise) how many aspects of marriage are not addressed there. Thus Bullough's definition is accurate but necessarily incomplete, as are all such short blurbs. Consider yourself countered. And please do not keep repeating that Bullough or glbtq are unreliable, since repetition will not make your argument any more plausible, and you have failed to adduce any evidence of their "unreliability." Haiduc 00:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Pederasty refers to a sexual relationship between an adult male and a teenager, typically male, always above the age of twelve. Such relationships may be consensual or nonconsensual, and may be legal or illegal depending on local laws on the age of consent and prohibitions on homosexuality. Pederasty is distinct from pedophilia, a mental illness that involves a sexual attraction to prepubescent children.
I think we are coming closer to a solution, but because the usages are so varied this will need some modification. Let me mull it over a bit. Haiduc 12:45, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
No matter what we'll do, people with a political or psychological agenda will still scream "pedophile" until the fad blows over. I agree we need to address the alternative usages. I notice you have French. Take a look at this, I think you will find it very interesting. It gives us a great deal more material to work with, since the article addresses a universal practice, not one restricted to the English world. Haiduc 23:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Interesting connection. Kuri seems to have earned his title by sleeping with underage girls. The Mexicans call him a "pederasta" while the Americans call him a pedophile. Yet the girl in question started being molested by him when she was thirteen, and apparently the abuse continued quite some time into her teens. And of course the French used "pede" for all male relations, regardless of age. Yes, we should note all that down, after we have dealt with the intro. Haiduc 02:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Keith, this version resolves some problems I see with your previous suggestion:
In the past century, the term pederasty has seen a number of different uses. In the classic and academic sense, it refers to the erotic relationship between an adult male and an adolescent boy. Such relationships may be sexually expressed or not, consensual or nonconsensual, sentimental or commercial, and their legality will vary depending on local age of consent laws and prohibitions on homosexuality. The term can also be employed of the attraction of the man to the boy, whether or not reciprocated. See Definitions below
Pederasty is contrasted with the other two forms of male homosexuality, androphilia and gender-structured relations, which are currently prevalent in modern industrialized societies. It is generally not used of lesbian relations.
The term has also been used, at times in legal parlance, to refer to relations with prepubescent or underage children of either sex. See Pedophilia, Child sexual abuse and Statutory rape
An alternative use has been to describe anal intercourse with either males or females, regardless of age. See sodomy and anal intercourse
Then I'd like to take the definitions presently in the intro and combine them with the dictionary definitions you brought up, as well as with the material from that French page, and lay out - in a separate section - what the "state of the art" is. Haiduc 16:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Nearly half of this section is devoted to the Rind, et al. study. Although it is appropriate to cite this study in this section, and to discuss the results of the study, it is not appropropriate to omit the criticisms and controversy associated with the study. The study provoked statements by the APA saying that pederasty is harmful, and the study suffered both scientific and political criticisms following its publication (see the article on the Rind, et al. study). There are clearly conflicting views about the merit of the study and its findings, and the critical views have been expressed in verifiable sources. The WP:NPOV policy states: "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted. All significant published points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It should not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions." By omitting the criticisms of this study, the section does not fairly present the conflicting views associated with the study, and thereby adopts a POV that the findings are relevant but the criticisms are not relevant. The omission of the criticisms associated with this study is a violation of the NPOV policy. Drop the study altogether or present both sides of the conflict about the merit of the study and its findings. Kelly 05:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Image:QAF1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 03:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to be in the process of merging all the notes (academic and whatever) into a single notes set, all using the ref tags. First, it's too complicated having different references formats on the same page and second, the academic splitting of notes is largely irrelevant. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 05:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Not to take away from the fact that the panel does play into the premise Wertham pushed, but it doesn't quite support the caption that was added here. "Loved ones" seems to fit, "lovers" doesn't, unless the argument is being put forward that "...everyone else you have touched!" is a euphemism for intercourse. - J Greb 00:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
This is hugely misleading--age of consent laws are not a guide to "lawful pederastic relationships." This refers to age of consent laws for boys and girls. Further, in Spain, the age of consent is 13, but the average age of first intercourse is 18, older than in countries where the age of consent is 16. This grapg belongs in the age of consent article, and it should be appropriately contextualized. - PetraSchelm ( talk) 23:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this edit: [4]--the cite is from 1980, so it cannot be used to verify any claims about "being in effect for 19 years," obviously, as that is a logical/temporal impossibility. I searched for another ref to verify the claim, and di not find one. I did find a ref for the resolution itself, so I added that. - PetraSchelm ( talk) 00:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I think this should be moved to the age of consent article; let me check if it is already there/wanted to preserve just in case. - PetraSchelm ( talk) 23:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
In some jurisdictions, as part of human rights campaigns granting the same freedoms to same-sex relationships as to heterosexual ones, the age of consent for homosexuals and heterosexuals is being equalized at age 16. [1] [2]
There are no sources in the article supporting contemporary use of the term "pederasty" as it's written on the page. I've searched for sources and not found any for current usage of the term other than either as a synonym for sodomy, or in discussions of pedophilia or child sexual abuse. The only significant sources on pederasty discuss it as a cultural practice is historical, from the Greek Age through even the 19th century - but nothing contemporary. As the article reads currently, the contemporary info is vague and unsupported, and even though the article refers to the modern world, most of the information is historical.
Mainstream definitions specifically do not refer to any cultural practices:
Scholarly sources I've been able to find use the term "pederasty" refer either to historical practices or use it in the context of abusive behaviors. Maybe there are some for other uses of the term and I missed them in my searches. If there are reliable sources that define pederasty in present day as anything like what is written in this article, those sources need to be added to the article. Unless that is done, the article is original research presenting a fringe theory. -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 17:58, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
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Horrendously POV. The article reads as a defense of sexual exploitation of minors and an attack on anyone who attempts to call "pederasty" what it is in most nations - a crime. | Klaw Talk 16:48, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page -- Mistress Selina Kyle ( Α⇔Ω ¦ ⇒✉) 20:03, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I noticed that you have one of those user boxes where it says you are against censorship, and so am I. But I could not help being a bit amused by that in light of your attempted deletion of my notice on the GLBT board. It is neither fair nor true to conflate pedophilia with pederasty, and the last person I would expect that of is someone with a certain degree of sensitivity to gender issues, which you certainly seem to possess. If any disgreement remains between us on this topic and you wish to resolve it, please let me know. Haiduc 16:56, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
I have made several changes to the text introduced today and around the deletions made today by Haiduc, but I'm posting my comments here for anyone else who may come along later to this discussion.
The salient point in most of these edits is that pederasty by definition refers to sexual activity between an adult male and an adolescent boy. This means that whether the contact is commercial or noncommercial, consensual or non-consensual (assuming consent is even possible), it is all pederasty.
In general, I think that Haiduc's changes today leaned heavily towards making this article more of a defense of pederasty, rather than an article on what pederasty is and its current legal and social status.| Klaw ¡digame! 23:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Keith, I am afraid that your arguments work against, and not for you. Your invocation of the soapbox rule cuts both ways. The material you have tried to introduce into this article is exactly the kind which has no place in a neutral document. Let's look at just the latest crop, so as to save everyone's time here:
You know, there are many aspects of this that we can agree on, and I am perfectly comfortable documenting and discussing the abuses which plague illegal relations between children and adults. You have no argument from me whatsoever. I am not looking to whitewash anything here. But neither are we here to tar and feather. Haiduc 06:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I would be thrilled to include here any number of organizations which had declared themselves against pederasty per se. If my memory serves me right, I was the one who introduced the Catholic church, because they came right out and said so. But to let you belabor the message of the good people at ECPAT to suit your views?! Inappropriate. But really, I am afraid that we are increasingly talking at cross purposes here. Like the endless argument of "It is legal!" "NO, it is illegal!" Can't you see that we are both saying the same thing, that we are busily arguing whether the cup is half empty or half full??? As for your age figures (where did you ever dig those up, they seem unrealistic, see here and here), for the map I intend to use the ones in the Wikipedia article. As for your attempt at reductio ad absurdum, trying to limit the scope of discourse to a couple of restrictive dictionary definitions, I think it is appropriate to use a more inclusive definition of the practice, a modern sexological one which is in keeping with the extensive body of published material on this practice, whether in the past or in the present. It is after all included in the article. And you have still not answered my challenge to your inappropriate use of the NPOV tag. Haiduc 04:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
The article cannot both portray pederasty as a practice whose allegedly universal abusive nature is subject to widespread dispute, then proceed in the "criticisms" section to push the POV that pederasty is abusive by dubbing pederastic acts as "abuse" and "child molestation." This is an encyclopedia, guys and girls, not a personal advocacy web page. Stick to the facts. Corax 05:26, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
The DSM IV criteria for diagnosing pedophilia reads in part: "Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 or younger)."
Notice that "prepubescent child" is clearly specified as the criterion, not any specific age, and that "13 or under" is used only to give a general idea of the age range of prepubescent children. Rendering in the second paragraph the definition of pedophilia as "an attraction to children under the age of 13" is thus inaccurate. Not only does it fail to identify the key criterion laid down in DSM IV -- that of prepubescence -- but it wrong implies that the age of 13 enjoys some sort of status as an official age below which youngsters only attract pedophiles, and above which youngsters no longer attract pedophiles. Corax 00:45, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
I think that this entire page should be done away with. It is just trying to hide the real truth about pedophiles by call it, pederastic love. Khalif 14:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
This page continues to read as a defense of pederasty, deprecating all considerations of the practice's illegality and lack of acceptance in most cultures. In particular, I object to the introduction, which currently reads:
Pederasty is defined as "The erotic relationship between an adult male and a boy, generally one between the ages of twelve and seventeen, in which the older partner is attracted to the younger one who returns his affection" Vern L. Bullough in glbtq (see also the Oxford Classical Dictionary).
First of all, using an LGBT source on this topic violates Wikipedia:Reliable sources, both because of its orientation and because that source is itself poorly sourced (such as the claim that most pederastic relationships are consensual, with no study or supporting evidence to back it up). Second, the claim that the younger partner "returns his affection" presents no end of problems, as it eliminates any consideration of pederasty as the abuse of a teenager by an adult, and it neatly avoids the question of whether, say, a 14-year-old has the maturity to consent to a relationship with an adult. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is a policy, not a guideline, and an article that defends pederasty directly or via obfuscation is a clear violation. | Klaw ¡digame! 15:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I really don't understand Keithlaw's problem here. The article gives as thorough of a treatment to the argument that pederasty is an unnatural, inherently harmful abomination, as it does to the argument that sex between men and teenage boys is not harmful under all conditions.
Is his problem that one side of the story is getting too much air time? If so, I fail to see how. Is his problem that the article does not conclude that pederasty is a codeword for universally destructive sexual molestation of small children? If so, he needs to consider that a variety of studies indicate that pederastic relationships are viewed positively by the younger participants long after they they've ended. As an encyclopedia, Wikipedia cannot make conclusive statements that are not backed by conclusive evidence. If his problem is that a definition of pederasty is given that he doesn't like, he needs to deal with it. Encyclopedias should not tailor their content according to people's preferences. It should conform solely to verifiable facts. And the fact is that the Oxford Classical Dictionary -- not a "gay" source by any stretch of the imagination -- gives a different definition of pederasty than webster's dictionary. Both meanings are frequently used. As such, both should be included. Corax 04:12, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Keith, you have not answered any of the four points I raised. Instead, you have proceded to flog a reductionist definition as the only definition that is valid. Unfortunately it is the one that is least valid since it does not address pederasty as a cultural phenomenon, the subject of countless academic and popular works. I will leave it to you to inform all those scholars and writers that they have misunderstood the field of discourse.
Part of the problem here is that "pederasty" refers to two separate groups of entities: relationships and activities. The term has been used (here too) interchangeably and I am not sure how to deal with this conflict. But subsuming the relationships into the activities, and then subsuming all activities into that subset which are against the law - which seems to be your aim - is propagandistic and neither reasonable nor viable.
As for your attempt to discredit the definition because it does not address all possible aspects of pederastic relationships, please take a look at the Marriage definition and picture to yourself (from personal experience or otherwise) how many aspects of marriage are not addressed there. Thus Bullough's definition is accurate but necessarily incomplete, as are all such short blurbs. Consider yourself countered. And please do not keep repeating that Bullough or glbtq are unreliable, since repetition will not make your argument any more plausible, and you have failed to adduce any evidence of their "unreliability." Haiduc 00:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Pederasty refers to a sexual relationship between an adult male and a teenager, typically male, always above the age of twelve. Such relationships may be consensual or nonconsensual, and may be legal or illegal depending on local laws on the age of consent and prohibitions on homosexuality. Pederasty is distinct from pedophilia, a mental illness that involves a sexual attraction to prepubescent children.
I think we are coming closer to a solution, but because the usages are so varied this will need some modification. Let me mull it over a bit. Haiduc 12:45, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
No matter what we'll do, people with a political or psychological agenda will still scream "pedophile" until the fad blows over. I agree we need to address the alternative usages. I notice you have French. Take a look at this, I think you will find it very interesting. It gives us a great deal more material to work with, since the article addresses a universal practice, not one restricted to the English world. Haiduc 23:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Interesting connection. Kuri seems to have earned his title by sleeping with underage girls. The Mexicans call him a "pederasta" while the Americans call him a pedophile. Yet the girl in question started being molested by him when she was thirteen, and apparently the abuse continued quite some time into her teens. And of course the French used "pede" for all male relations, regardless of age. Yes, we should note all that down, after we have dealt with the intro. Haiduc 02:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Keith, this version resolves some problems I see with your previous suggestion:
In the past century, the term pederasty has seen a number of different uses. In the classic and academic sense, it refers to the erotic relationship between an adult male and an adolescent boy. Such relationships may be sexually expressed or not, consensual or nonconsensual, sentimental or commercial, and their legality will vary depending on local age of consent laws and prohibitions on homosexuality. The term can also be employed of the attraction of the man to the boy, whether or not reciprocated. See Definitions below
Pederasty is contrasted with the other two forms of male homosexuality, androphilia and gender-structured relations, which are currently prevalent in modern industrialized societies. It is generally not used of lesbian relations.
The term has also been used, at times in legal parlance, to refer to relations with prepubescent or underage children of either sex. See Pedophilia, Child sexual abuse and Statutory rape
An alternative use has been to describe anal intercourse with either males or females, regardless of age. See sodomy and anal intercourse
Then I'd like to take the definitions presently in the intro and combine them with the dictionary definitions you brought up, as well as with the material from that French page, and lay out - in a separate section - what the "state of the art" is. Haiduc 16:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Nearly half of this section is devoted to the Rind, et al. study. Although it is appropriate to cite this study in this section, and to discuss the results of the study, it is not appropropriate to omit the criticisms and controversy associated with the study. The study provoked statements by the APA saying that pederasty is harmful, and the study suffered both scientific and political criticisms following its publication (see the article on the Rind, et al. study). There are clearly conflicting views about the merit of the study and its findings, and the critical views have been expressed in verifiable sources. The WP:NPOV policy states: "The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted. All significant published points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It should not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions." By omitting the criticisms of this study, the section does not fairly present the conflicting views associated with the study, and thereby adopts a POV that the findings are relevant but the criticisms are not relevant. The omission of the criticisms associated with this study is a violation of the NPOV policy. Drop the study altogether or present both sides of the conflict about the merit of the study and its findings. Kelly 05:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Image:QAF1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot 03:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to be in the process of merging all the notes (academic and whatever) into a single notes set, all using the ref tags. First, it's too complicated having different references formats on the same page and second, the academic splitting of notes is largely irrelevant. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 05:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Not to take away from the fact that the panel does play into the premise Wertham pushed, but it doesn't quite support the caption that was added here. "Loved ones" seems to fit, "lovers" doesn't, unless the argument is being put forward that "...everyone else you have touched!" is a euphemism for intercourse. - J Greb 00:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
This is hugely misleading--age of consent laws are not a guide to "lawful pederastic relationships." This refers to age of consent laws for boys and girls. Further, in Spain, the age of consent is 13, but the average age of first intercourse is 18, older than in countries where the age of consent is 16. This grapg belongs in the age of consent article, and it should be appropriately contextualized. - PetraSchelm ( talk) 23:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Regarding this edit: [4]--the cite is from 1980, so it cannot be used to verify any claims about "being in effect for 19 years," obviously, as that is a logical/temporal impossibility. I searched for another ref to verify the claim, and di not find one. I did find a ref for the resolution itself, so I added that. - PetraSchelm ( talk) 00:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I think this should be moved to the age of consent article; let me check if it is already there/wanted to preserve just in case. - PetraSchelm ( talk) 23:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
In some jurisdictions, as part of human rights campaigns granting the same freedoms to same-sex relationships as to heterosexual ones, the age of consent for homosexuals and heterosexuals is being equalized at age 16. [1] [2]
There are no sources in the article supporting contemporary use of the term "pederasty" as it's written on the page. I've searched for sources and not found any for current usage of the term other than either as a synonym for sodomy, or in discussions of pedophilia or child sexual abuse. The only significant sources on pederasty discuss it as a cultural practice is historical, from the Greek Age through even the 19th century - but nothing contemporary. As the article reads currently, the contemporary info is vague and unsupported, and even though the article refers to the modern world, most of the information is historical.
Mainstream definitions specifically do not refer to any cultural practices:
Scholarly sources I've been able to find use the term "pederasty" refer either to historical practices or use it in the context of abusive behaviors. Maybe there are some for other uses of the term and I missed them in my searches. If there are reliable sources that define pederasty in present day as anything like what is written in this article, those sources need to be added to the article. Unless that is done, the article is original research presenting a fringe theory. -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 17:58, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
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