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The result of the move request was: moved. By strength of the arguments presented, there is consensus for this name change. – bradv 🍁 19:33, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
– Hi. I have never edited on Wikipedia, so excuse any lack of familiarity with the common practices in place in this community. I take note of the previous arguments against changing the name of this page, which hinge on the claim that Peć is more common in English usage. Some users have used Google results to claim this, however this seems to produce inconclusive results, sometimes skewing to one side, sometimes to another.
In any case, it seems to me there are at least six good reasons to change the page name to Peja.
1) All other major cities in Kosovo are titled by their Albanian names, except Pristina. Gjakova, Ferizaj, Gjilan are in Albanian. Of course, Peć sees more English usage than Đakovica, Uroševac and Gnjilane, which is an argument against this reasoning. However, one should consider the matter of naming consistency across the territory of Kosovo.
2) The municipal government English language website, as well as documents issued from the municipality in English, all call the city either Pejë or Peja, and the Municipality either the Municipality of Pejë or the Municipality of Peja. As the article states, it is about the municipality. Municipal website: https://kk.rks-gov.net/peje/en/ [1]. Example document issued by the municipality https://kk.rks-gov.net/peje/wp-content/uploads/sites/24/2020/08/B05-Njoftim-per-Kontrat-2-1-1-1.pdf [2]. (See p. 2, which refers to the "Municipality of Peja".) I realize some have argued that official names do not constitute common usage. However, since there is no clear consensus, for example in Google results, as to which name is more commonly used in English, it makes more sense to take official names into account, as well as common practice with other Kosovar cities.
3) As many have pointed out, the use of diacritics is not preferred by English speakers. This has the effect that if one searches "Pec" (without the ć), one is referred to a disambiguation page. Same goes for "Pejë", "Peje" or "Peja". Therefore, for English speakers (who presumably do not have access to the letter ć or ë on their keyboards, all possible spellings currently lead to a disambiguation page. This could be confusing to many users, and is clearly not desirable. To avoid this, Peja is the most neutral and easily typed English spelling.
4) For what it's worth, most tourist websites and tourist materials for the city, seem to refer to it as Peja.
5) Some have argued that since the Germany page is not titled Deutschland, and the Belgrade is not titled Beograd, then this page should also not be called Peja, just because it is official. However the first example, Germany, is a native English exonym for the country, and is not comparable to Peć, which is the Serbian name for the city, adopted into English after the Balkan Wars. Prior to this the English name was based on the Turkish name for the city, Ipek. [3] [4]. As for Belgrade, this name has been in English usage and is undisputed, while the case of Peja/Pejë v. Peć is both disputed and there is no clear preference in English usage. Therefore, the argument that official usage (in English language municipal documents, for example) is irrelevant, is strange. Notwithstanding the usage of Pejë/Peja by, as an example, Britannica [5], because there is no clear English language preference, the official usage of the municipality (which this page is about) should be considered, and would be most neutral.
6) It is used, for example, by the Encyclopædia Britannica [6], which on the naming convention page [7], is listed as a sources for "widely accepted names".
References
– Best regards. Leokr ( talk) 14:40, 18 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. — Amakuru ( talk) 16:26, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
one solution is to follow English usage where it can be determined, and to adopt the name used by the linguistic majority where English usage is indecisive. In this case, English results are obviously indecisive. GB search does not lead to a clear conclusion. There are several untrue claims: that "Peja" was not used during the war by English-language sources (check online, it was used), the settlement is mostly known due to the Patriarchate (it is not, the very majority of online sources that mention the settlement do not even mention the Patriarchate), and that Peja/Pec are both equal in official terms (not so, English-speaking countries --including the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand-- recognize as offical the documents of the government of Kosovo, that for ethnic reasons prefers and uses the Albanian name Peja). Ktrimi991 ( talk) 11:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used." and yet Peja doesn't meet these criteria. I recommend that Peć's case is treated carefully also due to the politically complicated situation in Kosovo and the sensitive ethnic relations between Serbs and Albanians of the country Peć it is located to, which for us the Wiki editors is one more reason to stick with Wikipedia's rules and general practices for renaming city articles. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 23:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
was known historically and traditionally by that name (Peć)The town has actually been historically known by the Ottoman Turkish name Ipek because for most of its history, it has been an Ottoman town which actually developed in the Ottoman era. Peć is the name of a small settlement on top of which the town developed. Now, neither this, nor a political argument about "sensitive ethnic relations" affect how titles are decided in wikipedia. It's surprising that anyone would even refer to "sensitive ethnic relations between Albanians and Serbs" in order to argue for the Serbian-variant of the name of a town, where 90%+ are Albanians and there are very few Serbs who actually live there.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Comment by closer of previous move request My close explicitly stated that there was no prejudice to a further RM but with the implied condition that it should not simply be a rehash of what has occurred before. Unfortunately, it largely is.
My understanding of the issue herein is that, the official name of the place has changed since independence of Kosovo and that the name of the article should reflect this, with various arguments being made for and against the move.
The guidance to consider in determining the appropriate article title is:
WP:AT,
WP:COMMONNAME as part of
WP:AT,
WP:OFFICIALNAMES,
WP:NCPLACE and
WP:NAMECHANGES. The most pertinant guidance from these are as follows: As there has been a change of the official name, from
WP:NAMECHANGES: ... we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change.
From
WP:COMMONNAME: Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) ...
. Considering
WP:COMMONNAME more closely, it is not sufficient that the sources are written in English but they are also independent - this precludes authors with ethnic ties to the region. Also, inherent in the phrase "a significant majority", there must be a sufficient corpus of sources meeting the criteria for such a determination to be made. Where there is not a sufficient corpus to assert a common English name, the guidance is to defer to the official name - see
WP:NCPLACE etc.
In considering the evidence, a simple google search is of limited value. It does not discern whether a "hit" meets the criteria or even if the "hit" is on-topic versus other uses. Google books is more likely to return "reliable" sources but simple gross counts donot resolve whether all of the criteria are being met. In my close of the
previous RM I made reference to the observation by
Red Slash: ... (let's be real) neither name sees any real usage in English ...
. While this comment hits the nail on the head, it was not sufficiently developed (with enough weight) to carry the move. Scanning the evidence from Google Scholar (at the time) indicated that a large proportion of the hits had strong national/ethnic ties to the locallity and should be excluded on the basis of independence (ie, they were not sufficiently at arms length from the subject).
Most recently, I have looked at the evidence from google books but limited the search by time to either the last 10 or last 20 years: "Pec+Kosovo" (last 10 - 1910) (last 20 - 5920), "Peja+Kosovo" (last 10 - 2810), (last 20 - 5010). Limiting the search by date is consistent with WP:NAMECHANGES. These raw numbers may be a little misleading though. Scanning through the pages for each search, they quickly run out of hits - after about five pages for each of the 10 year searches and 10 (for Peja) to 15 (for Pec) for the 20 year searches. There is then the matter of determining if all of the hits meet the criteria (independent, reliable English-language sources) and are relevant to the subject (ie not a false hit). The raw data suggests that "Pec" does not meet the criteria of a "significant majority" to be the WP:COMMONNAME. The results also indicate that either name is not all that "common". Both observations tend toward adopting the official name in this case. Regards, Cinderella157 ( talk) 02:44, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. If neither of these English names exist, the modern official name (in articles dealing with the present) or the modern local historical name (in articles dealing with a specific period) should be used.At WP:WIAN (a following section) it is also suggested to consult
[current] disinterested, authoritative reference workssuch as Encyclopædia Britannica (already cited by the OP). There are other sources suggested, though access will be an issue. Out of interest, I consulted Google Maps, which gives the Latinised name as "Peja". Regards, Cinderella157 ( talk) 10:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
I contend that the current name is better known to people in general for precisely two reasons, the first is the notability of such establishments as the Patriarch of Peć which far outweighs fixed English titles using the alternative title such as the short-lived League of Peja. The second (and in my mind clinching argument) is that Peć was widely used when the town came to prominence among today's English-speaking community which was during the NATO conflict of 1999: see link. Since then, reference to Peja has featured in no major headlines, only minor[5], and even then there is mention of it being called Peć.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
The sovereignty of Kosovo is disputed, with more than half of countries with about 3/4 of world population having position that it belongs to Serbia.What you're basically saying is that because China doesn't recognize Kosovo, wikipedia shouldn't change the title of a small town in Europe, which almost all Chinese people have never even heard of. Fortunately for wikipedia, our guidelines for article titles don't include the geopolitical decisions of China as a criterion.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 11:28, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
more than half of countries with about 3/4 of world populationin the context of determining what is the official name. Peć is official name per legislative of Serbia and for all other countries who do not recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Having in mind that it is also one of the official names for Kosovo government, it would be a violation of WP:NPOV to proclaim Peja/Pejë as official.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 12:04, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
NOTE TO CLOSING ADMIN: This request is opened by users third edit of the never used account. Most of the Support users opened their account within days and one month to each other, at the end of 2019, during the Wiki Academy Kosovo event. The dates of duration of event lined with our "new neutral users" appearances on Wikipedia. It is obvious that Republic of Kosovo is using new editors again, as we have witnessed several times in the past years they already did, as their national agenda pov pushers and fighters. We already know that they educate new users to use English Wikipedia as pro-Albanian propaganda advocacy tool, and that is strictly forbidden by WP:ARBMAC. Therefor this coordinated list of renaming of established article name with attempt to rename them to Albanian language, that should be presented as new "commonname". And this is happening on at least 4 articles at the moment. Admins should be well aware that those requests are very much disputable, and therefor, consensus reached is actually not consensus, but organised and paid political advocacy. -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ) 08:42, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
A portion of text was added to the aforementioned section that claims that during the 15th and 16th century, the region of Peja and Suhogërla had a majority population of Orthodox Albanians according to the Ottoman defter. I have removed this text for a number of reasons. The text does not specifically mention the city of Peja itself. Secondly, the text is WP:EXTRAORDINARY in that it conflicts with other opinions of demographic history of the city and region. Ottoman narratives state that Peja had a Muslim majority population by the 16th century due to Islamization and colonization. [1] According to the Serbian narrative, Serbians represented the majority population of the region of Peja in the 16th century. [2] In reality, the Ottoman narrative ranks highest as the defter didn't recognize ones nationality, rather their religion. Hence, the one sourced text that pushes an Albanian nationalist narrative is extraordinary and its presence will only serve the purpose of creating an edit war, given that it conflicts with other narratives. I would be inclined to suggest putting the Ottoman narrative in to discuss the demographic history of the city of Peja itself. ElderZamzam ( talk) 00:42, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
Hi @ Botushali, what do you mean by "not cited" properly ? You can't even currently read the source, so how would you know its not citing content correctly? --Azor ( talk). 17:55, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
The citation was originally added on
9 Sep 2009. At the time, it included identifying information in addition to the url: La civilisation Serbe au moyen age, Paris 1920, p.15
I did a search, and that book is available at
the Internet Archive. I don't read French so can't tell if it supports the associated content. Hope that helps.
Schazjmd
(talk) 21:00, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Peja article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3Auto-archiving period: 120 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions:
|
The result of the move request was: moved. By strength of the arguments presented, there is consensus for this name change. – bradv 🍁 19:33, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
– Hi. I have never edited on Wikipedia, so excuse any lack of familiarity with the common practices in place in this community. I take note of the previous arguments against changing the name of this page, which hinge on the claim that Peć is more common in English usage. Some users have used Google results to claim this, however this seems to produce inconclusive results, sometimes skewing to one side, sometimes to another.
In any case, it seems to me there are at least six good reasons to change the page name to Peja.
1) All other major cities in Kosovo are titled by their Albanian names, except Pristina. Gjakova, Ferizaj, Gjilan are in Albanian. Of course, Peć sees more English usage than Đakovica, Uroševac and Gnjilane, which is an argument against this reasoning. However, one should consider the matter of naming consistency across the territory of Kosovo.
2) The municipal government English language website, as well as documents issued from the municipality in English, all call the city either Pejë or Peja, and the Municipality either the Municipality of Pejë or the Municipality of Peja. As the article states, it is about the municipality. Municipal website: https://kk.rks-gov.net/peje/en/ [1]. Example document issued by the municipality https://kk.rks-gov.net/peje/wp-content/uploads/sites/24/2020/08/B05-Njoftim-per-Kontrat-2-1-1-1.pdf [2]. (See p. 2, which refers to the "Municipality of Peja".) I realize some have argued that official names do not constitute common usage. However, since there is no clear consensus, for example in Google results, as to which name is more commonly used in English, it makes more sense to take official names into account, as well as common practice with other Kosovar cities.
3) As many have pointed out, the use of diacritics is not preferred by English speakers. This has the effect that if one searches "Pec" (without the ć), one is referred to a disambiguation page. Same goes for "Pejë", "Peje" or "Peja". Therefore, for English speakers (who presumably do not have access to the letter ć or ë on their keyboards, all possible spellings currently lead to a disambiguation page. This could be confusing to many users, and is clearly not desirable. To avoid this, Peja is the most neutral and easily typed English spelling.
4) For what it's worth, most tourist websites and tourist materials for the city, seem to refer to it as Peja.
5) Some have argued that since the Germany page is not titled Deutschland, and the Belgrade is not titled Beograd, then this page should also not be called Peja, just because it is official. However the first example, Germany, is a native English exonym for the country, and is not comparable to Peć, which is the Serbian name for the city, adopted into English after the Balkan Wars. Prior to this the English name was based on the Turkish name for the city, Ipek. [3] [4]. As for Belgrade, this name has been in English usage and is undisputed, while the case of Peja/Pejë v. Peć is both disputed and there is no clear preference in English usage. Therefore, the argument that official usage (in English language municipal documents, for example) is irrelevant, is strange. Notwithstanding the usage of Pejë/Peja by, as an example, Britannica [5], because there is no clear English language preference, the official usage of the municipality (which this page is about) should be considered, and would be most neutral.
6) It is used, for example, by the Encyclopædia Britannica [6], which on the naming convention page [7], is listed as a sources for "widely accepted names".
References
– Best regards. Leokr ( talk) 14:40, 18 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. — Amakuru ( talk) 16:26, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
one solution is to follow English usage where it can be determined, and to adopt the name used by the linguistic majority where English usage is indecisive. In this case, English results are obviously indecisive. GB search does not lead to a clear conclusion. There are several untrue claims: that "Peja" was not used during the war by English-language sources (check online, it was used), the settlement is mostly known due to the Patriarchate (it is not, the very majority of online sources that mention the settlement do not even mention the Patriarchate), and that Peja/Pec are both equal in official terms (not so, English-speaking countries --including the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand-- recognize as offical the documents of the government of Kosovo, that for ethnic reasons prefers and uses the Albanian name Peja). Ktrimi991 ( talk) 11:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used." and yet Peja doesn't meet these criteria. I recommend that Peć's case is treated carefully also due to the politically complicated situation in Kosovo and the sensitive ethnic relations between Serbs and Albanians of the country Peć it is located to, which for us the Wiki editors is one more reason to stick with Wikipedia's rules and general practices for renaming city articles. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 23:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
was known historically and traditionally by that name (Peć)The town has actually been historically known by the Ottoman Turkish name Ipek because for most of its history, it has been an Ottoman town which actually developed in the Ottoman era. Peć is the name of a small settlement on top of which the town developed. Now, neither this, nor a political argument about "sensitive ethnic relations" affect how titles are decided in wikipedia. It's surprising that anyone would even refer to "sensitive ethnic relations between Albanians and Serbs" in order to argue for the Serbian-variant of the name of a town, where 90%+ are Albanians and there are very few Serbs who actually live there.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 15:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Comment by closer of previous move request My close explicitly stated that there was no prejudice to a further RM but with the implied condition that it should not simply be a rehash of what has occurred before. Unfortunately, it largely is.
My understanding of the issue herein is that, the official name of the place has changed since independence of Kosovo and that the name of the article should reflect this, with various arguments being made for and against the move.
The guidance to consider in determining the appropriate article title is:
WP:AT,
WP:COMMONNAME as part of
WP:AT,
WP:OFFICIALNAMES,
WP:NCPLACE and
WP:NAMECHANGES. The most pertinant guidance from these are as follows: As there has been a change of the official name, from
WP:NAMECHANGES: ... we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change.
From
WP:COMMONNAME: Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) ...
. Considering
WP:COMMONNAME more closely, it is not sufficient that the sources are written in English but they are also independent - this precludes authors with ethnic ties to the region. Also, inherent in the phrase "a significant majority", there must be a sufficient corpus of sources meeting the criteria for such a determination to be made. Where there is not a sufficient corpus to assert a common English name, the guidance is to defer to the official name - see
WP:NCPLACE etc.
In considering the evidence, a simple google search is of limited value. It does not discern whether a "hit" meets the criteria or even if the "hit" is on-topic versus other uses. Google books is more likely to return "reliable" sources but simple gross counts donot resolve whether all of the criteria are being met. In my close of the
previous RM I made reference to the observation by
Red Slash: ... (let's be real) neither name sees any real usage in English ...
. While this comment hits the nail on the head, it was not sufficiently developed (with enough weight) to carry the move. Scanning the evidence from Google Scholar (at the time) indicated that a large proportion of the hits had strong national/ethnic ties to the locallity and should be excluded on the basis of independence (ie, they were not sufficiently at arms length from the subject).
Most recently, I have looked at the evidence from google books but limited the search by time to either the last 10 or last 20 years: "Pec+Kosovo" (last 10 - 1910) (last 20 - 5920), "Peja+Kosovo" (last 10 - 2810), (last 20 - 5010). Limiting the search by date is consistent with WP:NAMECHANGES. These raw numbers may be a little misleading though. Scanning through the pages for each search, they quickly run out of hits - after about five pages for each of the 10 year searches and 10 (for Peja) to 15 (for Pec) for the 20 year searches. There is then the matter of determining if all of the hits meet the criteria (independent, reliable English-language sources) and are relevant to the subject (ie not a false hit). The raw data suggests that "Pec" does not meet the criteria of a "significant majority" to be the WP:COMMONNAME. The results also indicate that either name is not all that "common". Both observations tend toward adopting the official name in this case. Regards, Cinderella157 ( talk) 02:44, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This will often be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. If neither of these English names exist, the modern official name (in articles dealing with the present) or the modern local historical name (in articles dealing with a specific period) should be used.At WP:WIAN (a following section) it is also suggested to consult
[current] disinterested, authoritative reference workssuch as Encyclopædia Britannica (already cited by the OP). There are other sources suggested, though access will be an issue. Out of interest, I consulted Google Maps, which gives the Latinised name as "Peja". Regards, Cinderella157 ( talk) 10:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
I contend that the current name is better known to people in general for precisely two reasons, the first is the notability of such establishments as the Patriarch of Peć which far outweighs fixed English titles using the alternative title such as the short-lived League of Peja. The second (and in my mind clinching argument) is that Peć was widely used when the town came to prominence among today's English-speaking community which was during the NATO conflict of 1999: see link. Since then, reference to Peja has featured in no major headlines, only minor[5], and even then there is mention of it being called Peć.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 10:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
The sovereignty of Kosovo is disputed, with more than half of countries with about 3/4 of world population having position that it belongs to Serbia.What you're basically saying is that because China doesn't recognize Kosovo, wikipedia shouldn't change the title of a small town in Europe, which almost all Chinese people have never even heard of. Fortunately for wikipedia, our guidelines for article titles don't include the geopolitical decisions of China as a criterion.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 11:28, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
more than half of countries with about 3/4 of world populationin the context of determining what is the official name. Peć is official name per legislative of Serbia and for all other countries who do not recognize Kosovo as an independent state. Having in mind that it is also one of the official names for Kosovo government, it would be a violation of WP:NPOV to proclaim Peja/Pejë as official.-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 12:04, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
NOTE TO CLOSING ADMIN: This request is opened by users third edit of the never used account. Most of the Support users opened their account within days and one month to each other, at the end of 2019, during the Wiki Academy Kosovo event. The dates of duration of event lined with our "new neutral users" appearances on Wikipedia. It is obvious that Republic of Kosovo is using new editors again, as we have witnessed several times in the past years they already did, as their national agenda pov pushers and fighters. We already know that they educate new users to use English Wikipedia as pro-Albanian propaganda advocacy tool, and that is strictly forbidden by WP:ARBMAC. Therefor this coordinated list of renaming of established article name with attempt to rename them to Albanian language, that should be presented as new "commonname". And this is happening on at least 4 articles at the moment. Admins should be well aware that those requests are very much disputable, and therefor, consensus reached is actually not consensus, but organised and paid political advocacy. -- Ąnαșταη ( ταlκ) 08:42, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
A portion of text was added to the aforementioned section that claims that during the 15th and 16th century, the region of Peja and Suhogërla had a majority population of Orthodox Albanians according to the Ottoman defter. I have removed this text for a number of reasons. The text does not specifically mention the city of Peja itself. Secondly, the text is WP:EXTRAORDINARY in that it conflicts with other opinions of demographic history of the city and region. Ottoman narratives state that Peja had a Muslim majority population by the 16th century due to Islamization and colonization. [1] According to the Serbian narrative, Serbians represented the majority population of the region of Peja in the 16th century. [2] In reality, the Ottoman narrative ranks highest as the defter didn't recognize ones nationality, rather their religion. Hence, the one sourced text that pushes an Albanian nationalist narrative is extraordinary and its presence will only serve the purpose of creating an edit war, given that it conflicts with other narratives. I would be inclined to suggest putting the Ottoman narrative in to discuss the demographic history of the city of Peja itself. ElderZamzam ( talk) 00:42, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)
Hi @ Botushali, what do you mean by "not cited" properly ? You can't even currently read the source, so how would you know its not citing content correctly? --Azor ( talk). 17:55, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
The citation was originally added on
9 Sep 2009. At the time, it included identifying information in addition to the url: La civilisation Serbe au moyen age, Paris 1920, p.15
I did a search, and that book is available at
the Internet Archive. I don't read French so can't tell if it supports the associated content. Hope that helps.
Schazjmd
(talk) 21:00, 27 April 2024 (UTC)