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![]() | On 26 December 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Pavlova (cake) to Pavlova (dessert). The result of the discussion was moved. |
This need’s correcting, the desert predates the 20th century claims of Australia & New Zealand
https://www.smh.com.au/goodfood/eating-out/pavlova-research-reveals-desserts-shock-origins-20151010-gk5yv9.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.98.27.211 ( talk) 10:34, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
I see Hollahollaholla03 has replaced the main image, what are other people's thoughts on this as opposed to the previous one? Personally I think the earlier one was better since it was sliced and you could see the interior 'pav', where as the one in this new picture is all but invisible under all that chocolate, strawberries and kiwifruit. And while it may look like it would be a very nice pav to eat, all that chocolate doesn't seem like very typical decoration, at least I've never seen that done before (hm, not that winegums are either for that matter, but at least with the slice taken out of it you can actually see the pav). Maybe somebody could just take a nice picture of a plain pav, with a slice out of it to show the interior texture. Number36 ( talk) 23:39, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
some people pronounce it the Russian way (stress on first syllable), which is surely preferable as the name is Russian. I have added this as an alternative. Seadowns ( talk) 13:57, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
I have read this entire talk page and it appears that most Australians have grown up with a myth, and upon having had that myth exposed, instead of accepting the new reality some have become pig headed about their myth. It's like the flat earth society - instead of accepting that the earth is a sphere they just come up with more and more tenuous arguements to assert what they want to believe. See confirmation bias
It is obvious that the New Zealand case is clearly the strongest and the Australian case lacks substance. Just as rugby has been adopted by New Zealanders as their national sport without any need to claim they invented it, pavlova should be accepted in the same way by Australians. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 09:49, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
its a non debate because the proof is in the newspaper in 1906...
When you read down, it says not to add (significant) flour.. That would mean...its a pavlova ! and its australian not NZ. This article shows that the recipe was the result of evolution and multiple small deviations of the recipe, not singular invention.
220.233.121.43 (
talk)
06:27, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Evidence shows that Pavlova originated in New Zealand, and then adapted in Australia shortly afterwards, yet very little is said of the Pavlova's Australian history, why it is considered by many to be Australian, and an Australian point of view on it. However, and with no disrespect to any NZ friends, much is said of the New Zealand point of view and origins. To me this shows a lack of depth on the subject of Pavlovas and fails to demonstrate a neutral point of view. It would be appropriate if more was explained in the article in this regard. -- Belfry ( talk) 13:37, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
The only rational I can see for including the reference to Anzac biscuits in this article is (petty) nationalistic debate--no pavlova I've ever eaten had a crumbled Anzac biscuit crust. Stevebeck ( talk) 14:54, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I intend to expand upon/rewrite some of this article in order to clarify some facts and correct a few inaccuracies. This will obviously be somewhat contentious, so I will trial any material here for comment and discussion. The reference for this will be the book 'The Pavlova Story' by Helen Leach. Here's my first submission -comments and criticisms welcome.
The pavlova is characterised by its crispy outer crust and soft inner centre. This is achieved by the addition of key ingredients of cornflour and vinegar, combined with a slow baking time. Until recently it was believed that by the addition of these ingredients the pavlova emerged from the general class of meringue cake recipes, which were thought to have lacked these ingredients. However more recent research by Helen Leach indicates that this was not in fact the case. Recipes for large meringue cakes which included the ingredients cornflour and vinegar existed prior to the first known published recipe for pavlova cake. In her book Leach concludes “Pavlova cakes emerged from meringue cakes not, as most of us formerly supposed, by the addition of key ingredients (cornflour, vinegar) believed to have been absent from meringue cake recipes, but by the simple act of renaming”. Leach points out that in New Zealand meringue cakes continued to exist under their own name side by side with pavlovas for the next two decades.
The most recent research by Helen Leach points to ‘Festival’s’ Pavlova Cake as the first known published recipe for a meringue cake with the name ‘pavlova’. It was published in the ‘N.Z. Diary Exporter Annual (Inc. Tui’s Annual)' in 1929, and consisted of two crisp meringue layers sandwiched together and topped with cream.
Ernest the Sheep ( talk) 22:43, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Is this section a joke? Please explain because it makes no sense to me. It is blatant POV. It is not relevant to an encyclopedia article about a dessert. It might be relevant in an article called " New Zealand's many issues with Australia". - Josette ( talk) 08:57, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Maybe of import. Article just appeared on MSN here, re the relaunched online Oxford English Dictionary stating that the first recorded pavlova recipe was from 1927 in 'Davis Dainty Dishes' a publication by Davis Gelatine in New Zealand. It's also one of the featured articles on the MSN NZ homepage. Number36 ( talk) 04:17, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
<re-indent>She just seems to be mirroring Hulton's claim that putting 'your' passionfruit on it proves it's Australian, saying neither would be a valid argument. Though kiwifruit is closely associated with New Zealand, we've been cultivating & developing unique varieties of it for over a hundred years, zespri kiwifruit for example can be said to be 'our kiwifruit', we're also one of the top two producers in the world and its name is connected to our native fauna/national nickname. But you're right we're getting a bit off track & franky I prefer strawberries anyway. Back to the article, I bet Prof. Leach was 'amused' when this story 'broke', I wonder if there was any publicity like this back when she published her book? Could be a source of refs if there are any old articles floating around in archives. You'd think a whole book would be a bit more note-worthy than one minor entry in a dictonary. Number36 ( talk) 20:23, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
Noticed the last couple of edits before mine; an IP adding 'New Years Day brunch' as an example alongside the already present Christmas lunch, someone removing it as unnecessary and the IP re-adding it with an argument in the edit summary that 'examples can serve to illustrate various occasions it can be consumed'. Which made me wonder if either example was actually necessary, 'celebratory or holiday meal' doesn't seem like a difficult concept which needs extensive illustrating. Though I could see an argument that it flows better with at least one example or maybe two, but 'New Years Day Brunch' might not be the best choice for a second example, it doesn't really seem like a traditional or particularly notable 'celebratory or holiday meal' but even with that aside it's another example of a holiday meal which already has Christmas dinner to illustrate it, so perhaps as an alternative 'birthday party' would be more suitable as an example of a celebratory occasion on which they are commonly served? Number36 ( talk) 21:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians. I have attempted a couple of edits to the article. On both occassions my edits were quickly reversed. As far as I can see, for no valid reason. I included a source to justify my edit. My proposed edit and quoted source would seem to fit in with the general feel of the article, at least as far as I can tell. My edit also provided a correction to a misleading statement included in the article. Although I don't feel the onus should be on me to spell out my source word for word, for the benefit of those who don't have access to the book by Prof Leach I'll do it on this occasion. On page 45 Prof Leach writes:
"There are fifty-two desserts in the sixth New Zealand edition of Davis Dainty Dishes (1927), and only one is named after the famous performer. Something must have prompted the Davis Gelatine Company's decision to create a new jelly in honour of Anna Pavlova. The recipe first appeared in the fifth Australian edition of Davis Dainty Dishes in 1926, the year Anna Pavlova visited Australia and New Zealand. It is likely that the reccipe was developed at the Botany Bay factory opened by Davis Gelatine in Jan 1999."
And on page 154, in a pavlova timeline box, in the entry for the year 1926 it is stated
"Davis gelatine publishes recipe for Gelatine Pavlova in Australia"
I hope that will be enough to satisfy any doubters.
Theodore D (
talk)
09:32, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Opinions sort on 3 issues:
1. I removed part of a sentence and it was undone. Those words I removed were "...but formal research indicates New Zealand as the more probable source". Upon reconsideration, the use of the term "formal research" and word "probable" in the same sentence is conflicting & poor use of the English language. Suggestion, the sentence needs a rework or deletion.
2. Stemming from issue (1) above, has the book by Leach (2008) undergone a Peer review or is it Reference work? If neither, the words "formal research" will be replaced with the word "opinions" if that part of the sentence is not deleted. Additional referencing to this sentence that is contra to Leach (2008) confirms a change is needed.
3. The section above the Table of Contents is meant to be a summary of what follows, even if references are duplicated. This article can be much better.
If no thoughtful replies are received relating to issue (1) and/or (2), issue (1) MAY be actioned in the way of deletion to that part of the sentence. Factrules ( talk) 02:15, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
From the OED, 1989 edition
"pavlova
Austral. and N.Z. [f. the name of Anna Pavlova (1885–1931), Russian ballerina.] A dessert or cake, now usually one made with meringue, whipped cream, and fruit. Also attrib. 1927 Davis Dainty Dishes (ed. 6) (Davis Gelatine, N.Z., Ltd.) Pavlova. Dissolve all but a teaspoonful of Gelatine in the hot water, and all the sugar except a dessertspoonful [etc.]. "
so that NZ news report mentioned in the main article is only a couple of decades out of date! Theodore D ( talk) 04:23, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Isn't the cake named in honour of Anna Pavlova, as the article says, because it was a favourite dessert of hers? ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 16:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
article states "The major difference between the pavlova and a large meringue is the addition of cornflour, which results in the pavlova having a crisp and crunchy outer shell, and a soft, moist marshmallow-like centre, unlike meringue which is usually solid throughout." This is plain wrong, as any accurate reading of Prof Leach's book would confirm. Indeed, neither vinegar or cornflour are necessary to achieve the desired crisp crust and soft centre. This can be obtained with a suitable proportion of sugar per egg white, added gradually, and a longer cooking time. The addition of vinegar will improve the quality of the meringue, while cornflour will, if a small quantity of water is also included in the recipe, enhance the marshmallow effect. It should also be added that the 1929 'pavlova' recipe referenced in the artice is simply a re-named meringue cake recipe, such dishes being fairly common at the time. Theodore D ( talk) 19:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Pardon me, but I would think that if you were going to include corn-anything in the pavlova shell, cornstarch--starch from maize--would be the product to use, and not cornflour--flour from ground maize. Is cornflour the down under term for cornstarch? Rootlet ( talk) 05:52, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
3 egg whites, 1 tsp essence of vanilla, 9 oz. castor sugar, 1 tsp vinegar, pinch of salt
Beat egg whites until quite stiff, fold in sugar, add vanilla and vinegar. Place on greased paper on greased tray and bake slowly about 1 to 1 ½ hours. (very slow oven 250 F). Pile whipped cream and chopped fruit on top and decorate with Edmonds jelly (chopped). Theodore D ( talk) 02:36, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
In the main article it is stated "The nationality of its creator has been a source of argument between the two nations for many years, but formal research indicates New Zealand as the source". This appears to indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts. It is also not supported by Prof Leach's book which is cited as the reference for the claim. Certainly no page number is indicated. In fact the dispelling of the "myth of the heroic inventor" is one of the central themes of the book. But it does require a thorough reading of the text, and I suspect few in here have gone to that trouble, at least judging by some of the contents of the article. As I pointed out above, and illustrated by citing the first Edmonds' recipe, the inclusion of cornflour is not what separates the pavlova from the large meringue. Large meringues with cornflour as an ingredient existed side by side with pavlova recipes. As Prof Leach has pointed out in her book, these first recipes called 'pavlova' were simply recipes for a large meringue cake renamed 'pavlova'. The 1929 recipe, ‘Festival’s’ Pavlova Cake, is simply a double layered meringue cake sandwiched and topped with cream. What we can say about this 1929 recipe is that it is the earliest example of a large meringue cake renamed as 'pavlova'. What appears to be less well known is that recipes for a large meringue cakes with vinegar as an ingredient (as with the Edmonds' first recipe) can be found in American cookbooks over a decade before the "Meringue with Fruit Filling" of 1926, which some have mistakenly called a prototype of the pavlova. Hopefully, with time, nationalistic sentiment will give way to accuracy, and this article can be written to more accurately reflect the story of the 'pavlova'. Theodore D ( talk) 23:03, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Quote from food historian Michael Symons very nicely sums up the situation: "In the 1920s and 30s, numerous large meringue cake recipes, and the pavlova name, circulated in both countries. After two or three decades, everyone gained an idea of the "real" pavlova, so expected some "original" recipe that never existed." Theodore D ( talk) 21:28, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
[44], not avaliable for free download alas, but does give an alternative view to the singular creation myth being pushed by the wikipedia article. Theodore D ( talk) 19:41, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
here's Bert's pavlova recipe (purported to be at least) from 1935 [45]. If this is indeed correct then it may well be the first example of a pavlova which used both vinegar and cornflour (and even cream of tartar). It is to be cooked in a tin, so it is not quite the classic free-form pavlova, but nevertheless is looks to be a not insignificant development on what was before. Theodore D ( talk) 05:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
this article [46] gives interesting (and maybe correct?) explanation of roles of various ingredients in a pav. Theodore D ( talk) 05:49, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
further illustation that pavlova was really just an alternative name for meringue cakes [47]. While this pavlova sponge [48] could possibly be a renamed 'foam torte', which can be found in jewish cookery books. Theodore D ( talk) 23:59, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Keith Money's biography of Anna Pavlova was published in 1982, well before research began into the origins of the dessert. Money's description of this alleged first pavlova would seems to fall into the category of what people would expect the original recipe to have been, based on their idea of the "real" pavlova that exists today (or in 1982). This first recipe apparently included kiwifruit (then called a Chinese gooseberry), so it was certainly a recipe well ahead of its time, if indeed it existed. However, there exists no verifiable source for the claims. Money, a New Zealander, writes that he knew the name Pavlova as he grew up in NZ, "the country that produced the cake which carries her name". Given the year was 1982, that claim would appear to be based on hearsay. Theodore D ( talk) 03:03, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
According to the opening paragraph in the origin section "Research shows the recipe originated in New Zealand". This is an incorrect statement. It is not supported by the reference cited. As I've mentioned many times before, Prof Leach in her book emphasizes evolution, not creation. There was no original recipe, there would instead probably be a moment when a large meringue cake was first given the name pavlova. That should be made clear in the article. Indeed, the first recorded example of a large meringue cake given the name is 'Festival's' Pavlova (1929). Here is that recipe, Whites of 4 eggs beaten very stiff, add 4 large tablespoons sugar. Beat and lastly add 1/2 tablespoon cornflour. Bake in very slow oven in greased sandwhich tins, and make filling of cream chopped nuts and cherries.-Festival. Here is another recipe, from a publication called The Portland Woman's Exchange Cook Book (1913). Beat well the whites of 6 eggs; add 2 cups of granulated sugar; beat again with eggbeater, then with perforated spoon. Add 1 tablespoon vinegar and 1 teaspoon vanilla. Beat with spoon 15 minutes. Put in 2 patent layer cake tins; bake in slowest possible oven 1 hour. Put between layers a filling of whipped cream, broken walnut meats and cut up marshmallows. Loosen cakes from tins while warm.- Mrs. Jesse Stearns. Given the Futter recipe dates from 1926, it appears that the large meringue cake took a while to reach both Aus and NZ. There is some conjecture as to whether either of these recipes possessed the soft-centre of the modern recipe. Festival's recipe includes cornflour only, while the US recipe included vinegar (so similar to the first Edmond's recipe). Both recipes are double-layered. Over time, recipes become single layered only, and included both cornflour and vinegar, while other ingredients, lemon juice and cream of tartar also make appearances. Another stage in the evolution was the use of baking paper instead of a cake tin. These developments in the evolution of pavlova were not especially notable in themselves, but were borrowed from other recipes, for example the Schaum Torte, a meringue based recipe similar to pavlova which often included both vinegar and cream of tartar as ingredients. Meringue cakes and pavlovas existed side by side for a number of years. The meringue cake went by various names 'Meringue Cake', 'Meringue Gateau', 'Meringue Cream Cake', 'Marshmallow Cake'. Over time, a form of 'natural selection' acted on these various names, along with the pavlova name, until eventually all of these recipes were known simply as pavlova. Theodore D ( talk) 03:03, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
One thing that seems to be a unique feature of the pavlova (the modern concept at least) is the addition of cornflour. According to Prof Leach's book (pg 64) the earliest known/recorded meringue recipes specifying the addition of cornflour date to 1896 in Aus, 'Cookery Book of Good and Tried Receipts'. The modern version of the pavlova specifies the adding of both cornflour and vinegar, while earlier versions of the 1930s could specify one, or both ingredients. Here's [49] an example of a meringue recipe from 1906, with cornflour added. Note that for the recipe in which the cornflour is not added, it is suggested the insides may be scooped out and filled with cream. The one with cornflour has no such recommendation. Although it is not clear, due to the brevity of the recipes, just what the purpose of using cornflour was. Theodore D ( talk) 23:16, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
This article should represent two things, the first of which that there are references that indicate origins for both Australia and New Zealand, so it would be unwise to portray one as the origin. Secondly, due to the controversial and questionable nature of the encyclopaedic content within this article, I propose that a header bar be placed to avoid confusion. Azirus ( talk) 12:19, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
there still seems to be an issue with this article's claim that addition of ingredient cornflour makes the difference between a pavlova and large meringue cake. This is plainly not so, as the first Edmonds recipe, from 1939, did not include cornflour. This recipe held its own in the Edmonds cookbook for some 40 odd more years. Theodore D ( talk) 00:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
In text of article it is stated "The nationality of its creator has been a source of argument between the two nations for many years, but formal research indicates New Zealand as the source". A reference is then given. As I happen to own a copy of the reference I looked through it, but alas, was unable to find any mention of the name of this original creator. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks! Theodore D ( talk) 00:17, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
That's the claim over at the Wikipedia article about the Flat White. But technically it could be said that the Flat White originated first in Oz, before being further developed in NZ. Which begs the question why a similar compromise has not been reached here. Clearly the pavlova was developed in both NZ and Oz. There is no evidence at all to support a single Kiwi creation. So what gives, Kiwi wikipedians Theodore D ( talk) 05:33, 28 April 2014 (UTC)?
here's a recipe for Meringue Cream Gateau -> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/139472148. A pavlova in all but name, it is certainly closer to the modern concept of what a pavlova is in comparison to Festival's named pavlova of 1929. As with the Anzac biscuit, I do not believe the renaming of something that already exists entitles one to then claim ownership. Theodore D ( talk) 22:55, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
If the body of the article clearly outlines the uncertainty of the pavlova's national origin, giving the case for both a New Zealand and an Australian origin, why then does the infobox not match this? Giving 'Place of origin' as only Australia is not only unverified, but also doesn't match the content of the article. I suggest the infobox be changed so as to include both countries, or perhaps omit 'Place of origin,' as it is, at this stage, apparently unknown
2602:301:77C7:9200:7DBB:E211:7645:C007 ( talk) 19:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
article here: http://www.goodfood.com.au/good-food/food-news/pavlova-research-reveals-desserts-shock-origins-20151010-gk5yv9.html
Maybe I'll try to update the article when I have time? Format ( talk) 03:02, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
An American icecream may have been named after Pavlova. However that is irrelevant to this article. Royalcourtier ( talk) 03:31, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Should a new section be added to include specific details on the rivalry over the pavlova? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lochlan Hanham ( talk • contribs) 12:40, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
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This edit does not conform to WP:NPOV. Please change "proved" to "said" or "wrote". Thank you. 70.162.235.236 ( talk) 20:41, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Admins should never abuse the privilege to protect an article, such as, trigger permanent protection for first time offence without an community arbitration. It’s better to adopt the three-strike system (if two non-permanent protection were triggered, third time can be permanent). Please revert to, at least, pending changes, then wait and see for a while. Thank you. 1.152.107.150 ( talk) 09:55, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
For many years, it has been widely known that neither the NZ or AU peoples created pavlova. Recipes have been noted originating in Germany, England, South America (found in kitchen staff's recipe books usually with notations about the people passing on the recipe as having 'strange' or 'far away' accents).
Below are a few relevant links, a couple of which are discussing how the Pavolva was originally a German torte and made into what we recognise today as being a Pav, in the US by migrants. There is also reference to the Austrian Schaum Torte.
If judging ownership or origin by what the Pavlova actually is, it's easy to see it didn't come from the NZ or AU people. If you judge it by it's name, 'Pavlova' has been used on a great many recipes in honour of Anna Pavlova, and again, is from neither AU or NZ.
The earliest NZ and AU recipes that have been found are far older than the earliest pavlovas form other countries. It is still disputed exactly where is first appeared (both in it's original form, and as the whipped egg white meringue we use today), but it is definitely from neither Australia or New Zealand.
As an Aussie myself, when I learnt this way back when I was taking Home Ec classes in school 15 years ago, I was needles to say, fairly disappointing, but I suppose at least NZ and AU don't need to be bickering about it any more...
https://food52.com/blog/16810-the-dessert-australians-and-new-zealanders-are-squabbling-over
https://ediblemilwaukee.ediblecommunities.com/recipes/schaum-torte-strawberries-lemon-curd
FlinginFlangin (
talk)
12:25, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
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Insert after fifth paragraph under heading "Origin and history":
By the early 1940s, home cooks in Australia were sharing a recipe for “Pavlova Cake” that is the recipe for what we now know as pavlova. In her handwritten recipe book, Hunter Valley woman Lydia Louisa Ling recorded a recipe for pavlova in October 1941.[17] The descriptive way she writes out the method indicates it’s something new for the time. She notes to “…turn off the gas when it is a deep creamy colour” and that it should be “… hard on the outside and like marshmallow inside”. She also describes leaving it in the oven to cool and filling the hollow with cream.
[17] Pavlova Recipe, originally recorded by hand in a small notebook and published on Cooking with Nana Ling recipe blog.
Also add to External links • Nana Ling’s 1941 Pavlova Recipe Libbyh1 ( talk) 23:47, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
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Please change the text: "Research conducted by New Zealander Dr Andrew Paul Wood and Australian Annabelle Utrecht found that the origins of the modern pavlova can be traced back to Germany, where it began life as a torte. It was later brought to America where it evolved into its final form."
to read as follows: "Research conducted by New Zealander Dr. Andrew Paul Wood and Australian Annabelle Utrecht found that the origins of the modern pavlova can be traced back to modern-day Austria or Germany, where it began life as the dessert Spanische windtorte. It was later brought to America where it evolved into its final form. German immigrants to the United States first streamlined the Spanische windtorte into a more simply-constructed meringue, whipped cream, and fruit dessert called schaum torte ("foam cake" in German). The main distinguishing feature between schaum torte and pavlova is that pavlova contains corn starch and schaum torte does not." Draco847 ( talk) 23:36, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
It's not a cake, should change page title — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.123.110.96 ( talk) 12:13, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
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Remove Maori translation from first line and "alternative names field".
The cake is not of Maori origin, and there is no Maori tie to the dish; it is European in origin and named after a Russian dancer. Compare with other New Zealand cuisine such as Cheese Roll and Lolly Cake.
Also given the controversy over the cake's origin, it would make even less sense to include a New Zealand specific language in the case that the cake originates from Australia. Elaborateshotput ( talk) 14:15, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
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Pavlova originally came from New Zealand 2407:7000:81E4:C600:E9FE:4C03:F37B:35B9 ( talk) 23:29, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Some cookes are trying to make pavlova in circular parametre. 136.158.59.116 ( talk) 04:37, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
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change /info/en/?search=Pavlova_(cake)#cite_note-24 to https://web.archive.org/web/20211109181354/https://edmondscooking.co.nz/recipes/desserts/pavlova/ RobDouglasNZ ( talk) 20:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Overwhelming consensus to move the page. Schwede66 may want to look into creating it the primary topic in a seperate RM, as no discussion has yet taken place regarding it. ( closed by non-admin page mover) echidnaLives - talk - edits 03:37, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Pavlova (cake) → Pavlova (dessert) – Pavlova is a type of dessert that Australians and New Zealanders overwhelmingly do not consider a cake, though it's challenging to find formal sources for an odd negative like this. The best I'm coming across is informal comments polling and comment threads talking about Australians getting upset when pavlova is called a cake. Pavlova certainly falls into the category of schaum torte ( foam cake) but as it is not considered as a cake in its home countries this page would better serve antipodeans as well as the rest of the world as "Pavlova (dessert)". 180.150.37.72 ( talk) 01:46, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
References
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's passionfruit pulp, not "lemon sauce" 124.168.179.114 ( talk) 06:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
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![]() | On 26 December 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Pavlova (cake) to Pavlova (dessert). The result of the discussion was moved. |
This need’s correcting, the desert predates the 20th century claims of Australia & New Zealand
https://www.smh.com.au/goodfood/eating-out/pavlova-research-reveals-desserts-shock-origins-20151010-gk5yv9.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.98.27.211 ( talk) 10:34, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
I see Hollahollaholla03 has replaced the main image, what are other people's thoughts on this as opposed to the previous one? Personally I think the earlier one was better since it was sliced and you could see the interior 'pav', where as the one in this new picture is all but invisible under all that chocolate, strawberries and kiwifruit. And while it may look like it would be a very nice pav to eat, all that chocolate doesn't seem like very typical decoration, at least I've never seen that done before (hm, not that winegums are either for that matter, but at least with the slice taken out of it you can actually see the pav). Maybe somebody could just take a nice picture of a plain pav, with a slice out of it to show the interior texture. Number36 ( talk) 23:39, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
some people pronounce it the Russian way (stress on first syllable), which is surely preferable as the name is Russian. I have added this as an alternative. Seadowns ( talk) 13:57, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
I have read this entire talk page and it appears that most Australians have grown up with a myth, and upon having had that myth exposed, instead of accepting the new reality some have become pig headed about their myth. It's like the flat earth society - instead of accepting that the earth is a sphere they just come up with more and more tenuous arguements to assert what they want to believe. See confirmation bias
It is obvious that the New Zealand case is clearly the strongest and the Australian case lacks substance. Just as rugby has been adopted by New Zealanders as their national sport without any need to claim they invented it, pavlova should be accepted in the same way by Australians. 121.73.7.84 ( talk) 09:49, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
its a non debate because the proof is in the newspaper in 1906...
When you read down, it says not to add (significant) flour.. That would mean...its a pavlova ! and its australian not NZ. This article shows that the recipe was the result of evolution and multiple small deviations of the recipe, not singular invention.
220.233.121.43 (
talk)
06:27, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Evidence shows that Pavlova originated in New Zealand, and then adapted in Australia shortly afterwards, yet very little is said of the Pavlova's Australian history, why it is considered by many to be Australian, and an Australian point of view on it. However, and with no disrespect to any NZ friends, much is said of the New Zealand point of view and origins. To me this shows a lack of depth on the subject of Pavlovas and fails to demonstrate a neutral point of view. It would be appropriate if more was explained in the article in this regard. -- Belfry ( talk) 13:37, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
The only rational I can see for including the reference to Anzac biscuits in this article is (petty) nationalistic debate--no pavlova I've ever eaten had a crumbled Anzac biscuit crust. Stevebeck ( talk) 14:54, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
I intend to expand upon/rewrite some of this article in order to clarify some facts and correct a few inaccuracies. This will obviously be somewhat contentious, so I will trial any material here for comment and discussion. The reference for this will be the book 'The Pavlova Story' by Helen Leach. Here's my first submission -comments and criticisms welcome.
The pavlova is characterised by its crispy outer crust and soft inner centre. This is achieved by the addition of key ingredients of cornflour and vinegar, combined with a slow baking time. Until recently it was believed that by the addition of these ingredients the pavlova emerged from the general class of meringue cake recipes, which were thought to have lacked these ingredients. However more recent research by Helen Leach indicates that this was not in fact the case. Recipes for large meringue cakes which included the ingredients cornflour and vinegar existed prior to the first known published recipe for pavlova cake. In her book Leach concludes “Pavlova cakes emerged from meringue cakes not, as most of us formerly supposed, by the addition of key ingredients (cornflour, vinegar) believed to have been absent from meringue cake recipes, but by the simple act of renaming”. Leach points out that in New Zealand meringue cakes continued to exist under their own name side by side with pavlovas for the next two decades.
The most recent research by Helen Leach points to ‘Festival’s’ Pavlova Cake as the first known published recipe for a meringue cake with the name ‘pavlova’. It was published in the ‘N.Z. Diary Exporter Annual (Inc. Tui’s Annual)' in 1929, and consisted of two crisp meringue layers sandwiched together and topped with cream.
Ernest the Sheep ( talk) 22:43, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Is this section a joke? Please explain because it makes no sense to me. It is blatant POV. It is not relevant to an encyclopedia article about a dessert. It might be relevant in an article called " New Zealand's many issues with Australia". - Josette ( talk) 08:57, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Maybe of import. Article just appeared on MSN here, re the relaunched online Oxford English Dictionary stating that the first recorded pavlova recipe was from 1927 in 'Davis Dainty Dishes' a publication by Davis Gelatine in New Zealand. It's also one of the featured articles on the MSN NZ homepage. Number36 ( talk) 04:17, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
<re-indent>She just seems to be mirroring Hulton's claim that putting 'your' passionfruit on it proves it's Australian, saying neither would be a valid argument. Though kiwifruit is closely associated with New Zealand, we've been cultivating & developing unique varieties of it for over a hundred years, zespri kiwifruit for example can be said to be 'our kiwifruit', we're also one of the top two producers in the world and its name is connected to our native fauna/national nickname. But you're right we're getting a bit off track & franky I prefer strawberries anyway. Back to the article, I bet Prof. Leach was 'amused' when this story 'broke', I wonder if there was any publicity like this back when she published her book? Could be a source of refs if there are any old articles floating around in archives. You'd think a whole book would be a bit more note-worthy than one minor entry in a dictonary. Number36 ( talk) 20:23, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
Noticed the last couple of edits before mine; an IP adding 'New Years Day brunch' as an example alongside the already present Christmas lunch, someone removing it as unnecessary and the IP re-adding it with an argument in the edit summary that 'examples can serve to illustrate various occasions it can be consumed'. Which made me wonder if either example was actually necessary, 'celebratory or holiday meal' doesn't seem like a difficult concept which needs extensive illustrating. Though I could see an argument that it flows better with at least one example or maybe two, but 'New Years Day Brunch' might not be the best choice for a second example, it doesn't really seem like a traditional or particularly notable 'celebratory or holiday meal' but even with that aside it's another example of a holiday meal which already has Christmas dinner to illustrate it, so perhaps as an alternative 'birthday party' would be more suitable as an example of a celebratory occasion on which they are commonly served? Number36 ( talk) 21:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians. I have attempted a couple of edits to the article. On both occassions my edits were quickly reversed. As far as I can see, for no valid reason. I included a source to justify my edit. My proposed edit and quoted source would seem to fit in with the general feel of the article, at least as far as I can tell. My edit also provided a correction to a misleading statement included in the article. Although I don't feel the onus should be on me to spell out my source word for word, for the benefit of those who don't have access to the book by Prof Leach I'll do it on this occasion. On page 45 Prof Leach writes:
"There are fifty-two desserts in the sixth New Zealand edition of Davis Dainty Dishes (1927), and only one is named after the famous performer. Something must have prompted the Davis Gelatine Company's decision to create a new jelly in honour of Anna Pavlova. The recipe first appeared in the fifth Australian edition of Davis Dainty Dishes in 1926, the year Anna Pavlova visited Australia and New Zealand. It is likely that the reccipe was developed at the Botany Bay factory opened by Davis Gelatine in Jan 1999."
And on page 154, in a pavlova timeline box, in the entry for the year 1926 it is stated
"Davis gelatine publishes recipe for Gelatine Pavlova in Australia"
I hope that will be enough to satisfy any doubters.
Theodore D (
talk)
09:32, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Opinions sort on 3 issues:
1. I removed part of a sentence and it was undone. Those words I removed were "...but formal research indicates New Zealand as the more probable source". Upon reconsideration, the use of the term "formal research" and word "probable" in the same sentence is conflicting & poor use of the English language. Suggestion, the sentence needs a rework or deletion.
2. Stemming from issue (1) above, has the book by Leach (2008) undergone a Peer review or is it Reference work? If neither, the words "formal research" will be replaced with the word "opinions" if that part of the sentence is not deleted. Additional referencing to this sentence that is contra to Leach (2008) confirms a change is needed.
3. The section above the Table of Contents is meant to be a summary of what follows, even if references are duplicated. This article can be much better.
If no thoughtful replies are received relating to issue (1) and/or (2), issue (1) MAY be actioned in the way of deletion to that part of the sentence. Factrules ( talk) 02:15, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
From the OED, 1989 edition
"pavlova
Austral. and N.Z. [f. the name of Anna Pavlova (1885–1931), Russian ballerina.] A dessert or cake, now usually one made with meringue, whipped cream, and fruit. Also attrib. 1927 Davis Dainty Dishes (ed. 6) (Davis Gelatine, N.Z., Ltd.) Pavlova. Dissolve all but a teaspoonful of Gelatine in the hot water, and all the sugar except a dessertspoonful [etc.]. "
so that NZ news report mentioned in the main article is only a couple of decades out of date! Theodore D ( talk) 04:23, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Isn't the cake named in honour of Anna Pavlova, as the article says, because it was a favourite dessert of hers? ACEOREVIVED ( talk) 16:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
article states "The major difference between the pavlova and a large meringue is the addition of cornflour, which results in the pavlova having a crisp and crunchy outer shell, and a soft, moist marshmallow-like centre, unlike meringue which is usually solid throughout." This is plain wrong, as any accurate reading of Prof Leach's book would confirm. Indeed, neither vinegar or cornflour are necessary to achieve the desired crisp crust and soft centre. This can be obtained with a suitable proportion of sugar per egg white, added gradually, and a longer cooking time. The addition of vinegar will improve the quality of the meringue, while cornflour will, if a small quantity of water is also included in the recipe, enhance the marshmallow effect. It should also be added that the 1929 'pavlova' recipe referenced in the artice is simply a re-named meringue cake recipe, such dishes being fairly common at the time. Theodore D ( talk) 19:45, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Pardon me, but I would think that if you were going to include corn-anything in the pavlova shell, cornstarch--starch from maize--would be the product to use, and not cornflour--flour from ground maize. Is cornflour the down under term for cornstarch? Rootlet ( talk) 05:52, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
3 egg whites, 1 tsp essence of vanilla, 9 oz. castor sugar, 1 tsp vinegar, pinch of salt
Beat egg whites until quite stiff, fold in sugar, add vanilla and vinegar. Place on greased paper on greased tray and bake slowly about 1 to 1 ½ hours. (very slow oven 250 F). Pile whipped cream and chopped fruit on top and decorate with Edmonds jelly (chopped). Theodore D ( talk) 02:36, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
In the main article it is stated "The nationality of its creator has been a source of argument between the two nations for many years, but formal research indicates New Zealand as the source". This appears to indicate a fundamental misunderstanding of the facts. It is also not supported by Prof Leach's book which is cited as the reference for the claim. Certainly no page number is indicated. In fact the dispelling of the "myth of the heroic inventor" is one of the central themes of the book. But it does require a thorough reading of the text, and I suspect few in here have gone to that trouble, at least judging by some of the contents of the article. As I pointed out above, and illustrated by citing the first Edmonds' recipe, the inclusion of cornflour is not what separates the pavlova from the large meringue. Large meringues with cornflour as an ingredient existed side by side with pavlova recipes. As Prof Leach has pointed out in her book, these first recipes called 'pavlova' were simply recipes for a large meringue cake renamed 'pavlova'. The 1929 recipe, ‘Festival’s’ Pavlova Cake, is simply a double layered meringue cake sandwiched and topped with cream. What we can say about this 1929 recipe is that it is the earliest example of a large meringue cake renamed as 'pavlova'. What appears to be less well known is that recipes for a large meringue cakes with vinegar as an ingredient (as with the Edmonds' first recipe) can be found in American cookbooks over a decade before the "Meringue with Fruit Filling" of 1926, which some have mistakenly called a prototype of the pavlova. Hopefully, with time, nationalistic sentiment will give way to accuracy, and this article can be written to more accurately reflect the story of the 'pavlova'. Theodore D ( talk) 23:03, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Quote from food historian Michael Symons very nicely sums up the situation: "In the 1920s and 30s, numerous large meringue cake recipes, and the pavlova name, circulated in both countries. After two or three decades, everyone gained an idea of the "real" pavlova, so expected some "original" recipe that never existed." Theodore D ( talk) 21:28, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
[44], not avaliable for free download alas, but does give an alternative view to the singular creation myth being pushed by the wikipedia article. Theodore D ( talk) 19:41, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
here's Bert's pavlova recipe (purported to be at least) from 1935 [45]. If this is indeed correct then it may well be the first example of a pavlova which used both vinegar and cornflour (and even cream of tartar). It is to be cooked in a tin, so it is not quite the classic free-form pavlova, but nevertheless is looks to be a not insignificant development on what was before. Theodore D ( talk) 05:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
this article [46] gives interesting (and maybe correct?) explanation of roles of various ingredients in a pav. Theodore D ( talk) 05:49, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
further illustation that pavlova was really just an alternative name for meringue cakes [47]. While this pavlova sponge [48] could possibly be a renamed 'foam torte', which can be found in jewish cookery books. Theodore D ( talk) 23:59, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Keith Money's biography of Anna Pavlova was published in 1982, well before research began into the origins of the dessert. Money's description of this alleged first pavlova would seems to fall into the category of what people would expect the original recipe to have been, based on their idea of the "real" pavlova that exists today (or in 1982). This first recipe apparently included kiwifruit (then called a Chinese gooseberry), so it was certainly a recipe well ahead of its time, if indeed it existed. However, there exists no verifiable source for the claims. Money, a New Zealander, writes that he knew the name Pavlova as he grew up in NZ, "the country that produced the cake which carries her name". Given the year was 1982, that claim would appear to be based on hearsay. Theodore D ( talk) 03:03, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
According to the opening paragraph in the origin section "Research shows the recipe originated in New Zealand". This is an incorrect statement. It is not supported by the reference cited. As I've mentioned many times before, Prof Leach in her book emphasizes evolution, not creation. There was no original recipe, there would instead probably be a moment when a large meringue cake was first given the name pavlova. That should be made clear in the article. Indeed, the first recorded example of a large meringue cake given the name is 'Festival's' Pavlova (1929). Here is that recipe, Whites of 4 eggs beaten very stiff, add 4 large tablespoons sugar. Beat and lastly add 1/2 tablespoon cornflour. Bake in very slow oven in greased sandwhich tins, and make filling of cream chopped nuts and cherries.-Festival. Here is another recipe, from a publication called The Portland Woman's Exchange Cook Book (1913). Beat well the whites of 6 eggs; add 2 cups of granulated sugar; beat again with eggbeater, then with perforated spoon. Add 1 tablespoon vinegar and 1 teaspoon vanilla. Beat with spoon 15 minutes. Put in 2 patent layer cake tins; bake in slowest possible oven 1 hour. Put between layers a filling of whipped cream, broken walnut meats and cut up marshmallows. Loosen cakes from tins while warm.- Mrs. Jesse Stearns. Given the Futter recipe dates from 1926, it appears that the large meringue cake took a while to reach both Aus and NZ. There is some conjecture as to whether either of these recipes possessed the soft-centre of the modern recipe. Festival's recipe includes cornflour only, while the US recipe included vinegar (so similar to the first Edmond's recipe). Both recipes are double-layered. Over time, recipes become single layered only, and included both cornflour and vinegar, while other ingredients, lemon juice and cream of tartar also make appearances. Another stage in the evolution was the use of baking paper instead of a cake tin. These developments in the evolution of pavlova were not especially notable in themselves, but were borrowed from other recipes, for example the Schaum Torte, a meringue based recipe similar to pavlova which often included both vinegar and cream of tartar as ingredients. Meringue cakes and pavlovas existed side by side for a number of years. The meringue cake went by various names 'Meringue Cake', 'Meringue Gateau', 'Meringue Cream Cake', 'Marshmallow Cake'. Over time, a form of 'natural selection' acted on these various names, along with the pavlova name, until eventually all of these recipes were known simply as pavlova. Theodore D ( talk) 03:03, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
One thing that seems to be a unique feature of the pavlova (the modern concept at least) is the addition of cornflour. According to Prof Leach's book (pg 64) the earliest known/recorded meringue recipes specifying the addition of cornflour date to 1896 in Aus, 'Cookery Book of Good and Tried Receipts'. The modern version of the pavlova specifies the adding of both cornflour and vinegar, while earlier versions of the 1930s could specify one, or both ingredients. Here's [49] an example of a meringue recipe from 1906, with cornflour added. Note that for the recipe in which the cornflour is not added, it is suggested the insides may be scooped out and filled with cream. The one with cornflour has no such recommendation. Although it is not clear, due to the brevity of the recipes, just what the purpose of using cornflour was. Theodore D ( talk) 23:16, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
This article should represent two things, the first of which that there are references that indicate origins for both Australia and New Zealand, so it would be unwise to portray one as the origin. Secondly, due to the controversial and questionable nature of the encyclopaedic content within this article, I propose that a header bar be placed to avoid confusion. Azirus ( talk) 12:19, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
there still seems to be an issue with this article's claim that addition of ingredient cornflour makes the difference between a pavlova and large meringue cake. This is plainly not so, as the first Edmonds recipe, from 1939, did not include cornflour. This recipe held its own in the Edmonds cookbook for some 40 odd more years. Theodore D ( talk) 00:51, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
In text of article it is stated "The nationality of its creator has been a source of argument between the two nations for many years, but formal research indicates New Zealand as the source". A reference is then given. As I happen to own a copy of the reference I looked through it, but alas, was unable to find any mention of the name of this original creator. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks! Theodore D ( talk) 00:17, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
That's the claim over at the Wikipedia article about the Flat White. But technically it could be said that the Flat White originated first in Oz, before being further developed in NZ. Which begs the question why a similar compromise has not been reached here. Clearly the pavlova was developed in both NZ and Oz. There is no evidence at all to support a single Kiwi creation. So what gives, Kiwi wikipedians Theodore D ( talk) 05:33, 28 April 2014 (UTC)?
here's a recipe for Meringue Cream Gateau -> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/139472148. A pavlova in all but name, it is certainly closer to the modern concept of what a pavlova is in comparison to Festival's named pavlova of 1929. As with the Anzac biscuit, I do not believe the renaming of something that already exists entitles one to then claim ownership. Theodore D ( talk) 22:55, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
If the body of the article clearly outlines the uncertainty of the pavlova's national origin, giving the case for both a New Zealand and an Australian origin, why then does the infobox not match this? Giving 'Place of origin' as only Australia is not only unverified, but also doesn't match the content of the article. I suggest the infobox be changed so as to include both countries, or perhaps omit 'Place of origin,' as it is, at this stage, apparently unknown
2602:301:77C7:9200:7DBB:E211:7645:C007 ( talk) 19:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
article here: http://www.goodfood.com.au/good-food/food-news/pavlova-research-reveals-desserts-shock-origins-20151010-gk5yv9.html
Maybe I'll try to update the article when I have time? Format ( talk) 03:02, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
An American icecream may have been named after Pavlova. However that is irrelevant to this article. Royalcourtier ( talk) 03:31, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Should a new section be added to include specific details on the rivalry over the pavlova? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lochlan Hanham ( talk • contribs) 12:40, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
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This edit does not conform to WP:NPOV. Please change "proved" to "said" or "wrote". Thank you. 70.162.235.236 ( talk) 20:41, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Admins should never abuse the privilege to protect an article, such as, trigger permanent protection for first time offence without an community arbitration. It’s better to adopt the three-strike system (if two non-permanent protection were triggered, third time can be permanent). Please revert to, at least, pending changes, then wait and see for a while. Thank you. 1.152.107.150 ( talk) 09:55, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
For many years, it has been widely known that neither the NZ or AU peoples created pavlova. Recipes have been noted originating in Germany, England, South America (found in kitchen staff's recipe books usually with notations about the people passing on the recipe as having 'strange' or 'far away' accents).
Below are a few relevant links, a couple of which are discussing how the Pavolva was originally a German torte and made into what we recognise today as being a Pav, in the US by migrants. There is also reference to the Austrian Schaum Torte.
If judging ownership or origin by what the Pavlova actually is, it's easy to see it didn't come from the NZ or AU people. If you judge it by it's name, 'Pavlova' has been used on a great many recipes in honour of Anna Pavlova, and again, is from neither AU or NZ.
The earliest NZ and AU recipes that have been found are far older than the earliest pavlovas form other countries. It is still disputed exactly where is first appeared (both in it's original form, and as the whipped egg white meringue we use today), but it is definitely from neither Australia or New Zealand.
As an Aussie myself, when I learnt this way back when I was taking Home Ec classes in school 15 years ago, I was needles to say, fairly disappointing, but I suppose at least NZ and AU don't need to be bickering about it any more...
https://food52.com/blog/16810-the-dessert-australians-and-new-zealanders-are-squabbling-over
https://ediblemilwaukee.ediblecommunities.com/recipes/schaum-torte-strawberries-lemon-curd
FlinginFlangin (
talk)
12:25, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
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Insert after fifth paragraph under heading "Origin and history":
By the early 1940s, home cooks in Australia were sharing a recipe for “Pavlova Cake” that is the recipe for what we now know as pavlova. In her handwritten recipe book, Hunter Valley woman Lydia Louisa Ling recorded a recipe for pavlova in October 1941.[17] The descriptive way she writes out the method indicates it’s something new for the time. She notes to “…turn off the gas when it is a deep creamy colour” and that it should be “… hard on the outside and like marshmallow inside”. She also describes leaving it in the oven to cool and filling the hollow with cream.
[17] Pavlova Recipe, originally recorded by hand in a small notebook and published on Cooking with Nana Ling recipe blog.
Also add to External links • Nana Ling’s 1941 Pavlova Recipe Libbyh1 ( talk) 23:47, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
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Please change the text: "Research conducted by New Zealander Dr Andrew Paul Wood and Australian Annabelle Utrecht found that the origins of the modern pavlova can be traced back to Germany, where it began life as a torte. It was later brought to America where it evolved into its final form."
to read as follows: "Research conducted by New Zealander Dr. Andrew Paul Wood and Australian Annabelle Utrecht found that the origins of the modern pavlova can be traced back to modern-day Austria or Germany, where it began life as the dessert Spanische windtorte. It was later brought to America where it evolved into its final form. German immigrants to the United States first streamlined the Spanische windtorte into a more simply-constructed meringue, whipped cream, and fruit dessert called schaum torte ("foam cake" in German). The main distinguishing feature between schaum torte and pavlova is that pavlova contains corn starch and schaum torte does not." Draco847 ( talk) 23:36, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
It's not a cake, should change page title — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.123.110.96 ( talk) 12:13, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
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Remove Maori translation from first line and "alternative names field".
The cake is not of Maori origin, and there is no Maori tie to the dish; it is European in origin and named after a Russian dancer. Compare with other New Zealand cuisine such as Cheese Roll and Lolly Cake.
Also given the controversy over the cake's origin, it would make even less sense to include a New Zealand specific language in the case that the cake originates from Australia. Elaborateshotput ( talk) 14:15, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
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Pavlova originally came from New Zealand 2407:7000:81E4:C600:E9FE:4C03:F37B:35B9 ( talk) 23:29, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Some cookes are trying to make pavlova in circular parametre. 136.158.59.116 ( talk) 04:37, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
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change /info/en/?search=Pavlova_(cake)#cite_note-24 to https://web.archive.org/web/20211109181354/https://edmondscooking.co.nz/recipes/desserts/pavlova/ RobDouglasNZ ( talk) 20:14, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Overwhelming consensus to move the page. Schwede66 may want to look into creating it the primary topic in a seperate RM, as no discussion has yet taken place regarding it. ( closed by non-admin page mover) echidnaLives - talk - edits 03:37, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Pavlova (cake) → Pavlova (dessert) – Pavlova is a type of dessert that Australians and New Zealanders overwhelmingly do not consider a cake, though it's challenging to find formal sources for an odd negative like this. The best I'm coming across is informal comments polling and comment threads talking about Australians getting upset when pavlova is called a cake. Pavlova certainly falls into the category of schaum torte ( foam cake) but as it is not considered as a cake in its home countries this page would better serve antipodeans as well as the rest of the world as "Pavlova (dessert)". 180.150.37.72 ( talk) 01:46, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
References
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's passionfruit pulp, not "lemon sauce" 124.168.179.114 ( talk) 06:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)