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This article is out of balance -- it needs a goodly paragraph on Italian patricianship, if that's the paradigm. DavidOaks 04:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion there is no point to having two articles that are so closely related as Patricianship and Patricians compete with each other. Therefore I propose that the parts of Patricians worth adding to Patricianship be merged into the latter and Patricians be deleted.-- Goodmorningworld ( talk) 16:05, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Not all those links go where you seem to think. I have to say that although I am myself more interested in later patricians, Roman patricians are pretty clearly the primary meaning in English, as the term was not used for modern figures in England until the 18th century I think, and then only figuratively, with Ancient Rome probably more in mind than Venice, let alone Hamburg. Renaming is possible, it would be Patrician (Ancient Rome) and I don't quite know what. I can't really see the benefits myself. Johnbod ( talk) 01:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Old | New |
patricians currently redirects to
Patrician, the page on the patricii of Rome. This redirect unduly privileges Patrician over the page now named Patricianship, the page on the patricians of medieval and later Europe. |
patricians redirects ( → ) to
Patrician (now the disambiguation page, see directly below); other redirects: patrician → Patrician, Patricians → Patrician, patricii → Patricians (Roman), Patrizier → Patricians (Middle and Modern Age)#German-speaking countries. |
patrician (disambiguation): needs to be renamed, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC | Patrician is the new disambiguation page. |
Patricians, currently the Article on the patricii of Ancient Rome and Late Roman Empire | Patricians (Roman), per the suggestion made by Skäpperöd. |
Patricianship, currently the Article on the patricians of medieval and later Europe | Patricians (Middle and Modern Age), per Skäpperöd. |
And of course, a WP:HATNOTE at the top of Patricians (Roman) alerts readers to the existence of Patricians (Middle and Modern Age), and vice versa.-- Goodmorningworld ( talk) 16:54, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)".
Burgher families There is confusion between the general classification of a "patrician" and the title of "Patrician of Venice" for example. Patricians of Venice are not burgher or bourgeois families- which would be essentially middle-class merchant families. The title Patrician of Venice is a title exclusive to nobility not one for the bourgeois. Venetian nobles did partake in mercantilism, but they are not the merchant middle class, they are nobility. The whole point of the burgher families in the introduction needs to be removed because it is innacuate, and beyond that, it is completely unreferrenced. Jurisdictoration ( talk) 18:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
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I was reading this article when I noticed something peculiar in the following passages under section entitled "Formation of the European patriciates", first paragraph:
"At Genoa the earliest records of trading partnerships are in documents of the early 11th century; there the typical sleeping partner is a member of the local petty nobility with some capital to invest, and in the expansion of trade leading roles were taken by men who already held profitable positions in the feudal order, who received revenues from rents or customs tolls or market dues."
At first, I was confused by the phrase "sleeping partner" and I thought it might have been a left-over from vandalism that was missed in some clean-up (it happened before, I've found some vandalism were missed in a clean-up and left over for several months or even years). But having looked through the page history to see if it was change of some words or was inserted, I did not find any indication that this was a remnant of vandalism from the past. I then thought it might have been a mistranslation but I then realized it could be that this phrase is also synonymous with 'silent partner' which I am familiar with. But I am not so sure if that is what whoever added this phrase meant. In any case, I don't know how common the phrase "sleeping partner" is relative to "silent partner" so perhaps linking it to a Wiktionary definition or even the article's section I linked above here might be advisable.
Anyway, thought you'd all like to be aware of this. Thanks and have a great day. Legion ( talk) 23:09, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
Please I need an appointment to renew my daughter’s passport can you please help me 2A04:4A43:4CAF:D65C:C96C:2E8E:1F4B:60FE ( talk) 12:33, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
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This article is out of balance -- it needs a goodly paragraph on Italian patricianship, if that's the paradigm. DavidOaks 04:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion there is no point to having two articles that are so closely related as Patricianship and Patricians compete with each other. Therefore I propose that the parts of Patricians worth adding to Patricianship be merged into the latter and Patricians be deleted.-- Goodmorningworld ( talk) 16:05, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Not all those links go where you seem to think. I have to say that although I am myself more interested in later patricians, Roman patricians are pretty clearly the primary meaning in English, as the term was not used for modern figures in England until the 18th century I think, and then only figuratively, with Ancient Rome probably more in mind than Venice, let alone Hamburg. Renaming is possible, it would be Patrician (Ancient Rome) and I don't quite know what. I can't really see the benefits myself. Johnbod ( talk) 01:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Old | New |
patricians currently redirects to
Patrician, the page on the patricii of Rome. This redirect unduly privileges Patrician over the page now named Patricianship, the page on the patricians of medieval and later Europe. |
patricians redirects ( → ) to
Patrician (now the disambiguation page, see directly below); other redirects: patrician → Patrician, Patricians → Patrician, patricii → Patricians (Roman), Patrizier → Patricians (Middle and Modern Age)#German-speaking countries. |
patrician (disambiguation): needs to be renamed, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC | Patrician is the new disambiguation page. |
Patricians, currently the Article on the patricii of Ancient Rome and Late Roman Empire | Patricians (Roman), per the suggestion made by Skäpperöd. |
Patricianship, currently the Article on the patricians of medieval and later Europe | Patricians (Middle and Modern Age), per Skäpperöd. |
And of course, a WP:HATNOTE at the top of Patricians (Roman) alerts readers to the existence of Patricians (Middle and Modern Age), and vice versa.-- Goodmorningworld ( talk) 16:54, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
If there is extended discussion about which article truly is the primary topic, that may be a sign that there is in fact no primary topic, and that the disambiguation page should be located at the plain title with no "(disambiguation)".
Burgher families There is confusion between the general classification of a "patrician" and the title of "Patrician of Venice" for example. Patricians of Venice are not burgher or bourgeois families- which would be essentially middle-class merchant families. The title Patrician of Venice is a title exclusive to nobility not one for the bourgeois. Venetian nobles did partake in mercantilism, but they are not the merchant middle class, they are nobility. The whole point of the burgher families in the introduction needs to be removed because it is innacuate, and beyond that, it is completely unreferrenced. Jurisdictoration ( talk) 18:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Patrician (post-Roman Europe). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:58, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
I was reading this article when I noticed something peculiar in the following passages under section entitled "Formation of the European patriciates", first paragraph:
"At Genoa the earliest records of trading partnerships are in documents of the early 11th century; there the typical sleeping partner is a member of the local petty nobility with some capital to invest, and in the expansion of trade leading roles were taken by men who already held profitable positions in the feudal order, who received revenues from rents or customs tolls or market dues."
At first, I was confused by the phrase "sleeping partner" and I thought it might have been a left-over from vandalism that was missed in some clean-up (it happened before, I've found some vandalism were missed in a clean-up and left over for several months or even years). But having looked through the page history to see if it was change of some words or was inserted, I did not find any indication that this was a remnant of vandalism from the past. I then thought it might have been a mistranslation but I then realized it could be that this phrase is also synonymous with 'silent partner' which I am familiar with. But I am not so sure if that is what whoever added this phrase meant. In any case, I don't know how common the phrase "sleeping partner" is relative to "silent partner" so perhaps linking it to a Wiktionary definition or even the article's section I linked above here might be advisable.
Anyway, thought you'd all like to be aware of this. Thanks and have a great day. Legion ( talk) 23:09, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
Please I need an appointment to renew my daughter’s passport can you please help me 2A04:4A43:4CAF:D65C:C96C:2E8E:1F4B:60FE ( talk) 12:33, 3 January 2023 (UTC)