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This is Boundlessly Talk . I'm coming from the perspective of an intellectual property attorney who advises/negotiates on U.S. and multinational licensing and/or corporate merger/acquisition issues. The material I added on EPC, PCT and territorial effect of a patent are issues that come up all the time in my practice (my rule-of-thumb for relevance is "If I've encountered the issue for a paying client at least twice in the last few years, it's Wiki-able.") I'm only licensed to practice in the U.S., though I deal extensively with European patents, and I've gotten lots of second-hand advice from my European collegues and from treatises. The two folks who are most adamant about reverting my work out - EdColins and Kcordina - what's your perspective? What are the bases for your opinions on what belongs here and what doesn't? (Do either of you have practical experience in the full economic life process of patents that would give you a reliable basis to determine "If an edit does not improve an article" before you are "bold and react?")
A European "patent" is not a patent. It conveys no substantive rights. It is essentially a voucher that you have to take to a national patent office. EPC Art. 64. If you don't register within the time limit specified under national law, you have nothing. If you register in some countries and not others, you have nothing in the non-registered countries. Look more carefully at Part II of the EPC titled "Substantive Law" - it only governs "European patents." Since a "European patent" is not a substantive "patent," Part II cannot have any "substantive law" effect. (EdColins, in most U.S. jurisdictions, legal conclusions that are contrary to the text, and supported only by section titles, are frowned on - what's the rule in your jurisdiction?) Substantive rights are determined solely by national law (EPC Art 64(3)), and that national law varies significantly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction - it's resonably common for different states to apply different patentability criteria for the different national registrations of a single European patent. Do I recall correctly that an EP "patent" can be invalid in one jurisdiction and valid in others? EdColins' quote from EPC Art 65 proves my point, and has nothing to do with the proposition for which EdColins cites it - it only says that the applicant has to supply a translation - Art 65 says nothing about substantive effect of the European patent in any national jurisdiction.
EdColins is correct to the extent that the Strasbourg Convention is in essentially the same class as the Paris Convention, so my work has to be corrected in that respect. In American parlance, we would call it a treaty that is not "self executing." Neither Paris nor Strasbourg create substantive rights; accession to the treaty is merely a promise by the member states to conform their national substantive standards to those specified in the Convention. (Paris Convention is similarly "non self-executing," at least in the U.S.) Substantive rights arise only when the terms of the convention are enacted into national law. This contrasts to both the EPC and PCT, neither of which creates any substantive right (except the procedural effect of preserving priority claims during prosecution under EPC or PCT).
The paragraph about territorial and nature-of-infringement limits was added in answer to a specific question in this discussion page. This is something I have to advise clients on fairly regularly. I've had millions of dollars turn on this issue. One of the two of you has a strong feeling that this is not relevant, so you reverted it out, without leaving behind an explanation - please explain your objection, and your basis for so believing. If you addg a flag requesting a rewrite, it'll get rewritten. If you simply delete it, then the prompt to make something better is gone, and so is the answer to the question that some reader asked. That is not consistent with your roles as admins, is it.
So, I have a Strasbourg problem that is relatively easy to fix. In contrast, the existing text on EPC and PCT is at best misleading - I have had $x00 million deals get held up for days because someone on the deal held the erroneous impressions stated in the existing text. I would like to not have a deal held up because someone in the transaction is misguided because of an error here. How shall we meet in the middle?
It also appears that EdColins and Kcordina seem to have very definite and expansive defintions of material that is to be deleted or not useful - both seem to be very liberal in throwing out others' work (mine as well as others'), without moving it to somewhere else that might be more appropriate. This seems at the least to be extraordinarily rude, and is also remarkably counterproductive to encouraging knowledgable experts in the field to make useful contributions. Would we at least have an agreement that if you think material is appropriate (as opposed to bald spam) you will move it to some other article instead of discarding it outright?
Based on the not-entirely-correct facts that EdColins and Kcordina keep reverting to, and the important facts that they allege to be "not improvements," it's not at all clear that they have specific subject matter knowledge. Wouldn't it be appropriate for them to be be more deferential to those that do? (I've done three transactions in the last 13 years involving over $1 billion in patents, and have licensed a couple patents I wrote for over $1 million each - I have some idea what is commerically important and what isn't.) I will make no further contributions to any patent-related subject until EdColins and Kcordina both state on this page that they will be using a much lighter hand in policing content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.138.184 ( talk)
Thank you TimB, for finally adressing the substantive issue in a legally-relevant way. As I said, I am only an American lawyer, not a UK lawyer, and my understanding was wrong to the following extent. I agree that Section 77 of The Patents Act 1977 [12] under UK national law gives UK national law effect to EPO publication. Thus, as a practical matter, under UK law a "European patent (UK)" has all the attibutes of a patent in the UK. However, it's important to note that this is a quirk of UK law, which gives substantive effect under UK law to an action of a non-UK agency, the EPO (thus, by national law, defining the national condition for the limitation "in each Contracting State in respect of which it is granted" of EPC Art. 64(1)). UK section 77 and EPC Art. 64(1) both seem to confirm - correct me if I'm wrong - that the substantive right - even in the UK - does not arise by self-executing operation of the EPC itself, until there is a "grant" under national law.
I understand that other EPC member states do things differently, and it is therefore important not to state or imply that an EP patent is by that fact alone a patent. I understand that very few actions of any EU body are self-executing, they almost all require adoption into national law. I understand that the EPC is similar, in that it is not self-executing, and leaves the conditions for "national grant" to national law. The EPC only states the effect of national grant. So far, UK section 77 is the only text that has been mentioned in this discussion that states the conditions on which a "national grant" of an EP patent occurs. (Under U.S. practice, there would be no need for UK section 77 if the EPC and an EP B1 were self-executing in all designated states - how do things work in Europe?) I understand that it's fairly common for an EP application to designate 15 countries, then issue and mature into a "national grant" and right to exclude in only four - the treaty and the EP B1 issue are not self-executing as "national grants" in the other 11, because other countries do not have a national statute similar to UK Section 77. Is my understanding correct?
(If so, here's why we view this differently. Here in the states, we constantly have situations of multi-jurisdictional layering of law: there's a tort under the law of state A, the events took place in state B, the tort is relevant to determining breach of a contract that specified the law of state C, and the parties are in the courts of state D. Which law applies, and what effect does state D give to the law of the other states? So a U.S. lawyer has to be very attuned to multi-jurisdiction choice of law issues. In contrast, I suspect that, because of the way UK law adopts the acts of the EPO as if done by the UK Patent Office, a UK lawyer advising on a "European patent (UK)" can just ignore all the multi-jurisdictional choice of law issues - and can probably go through an entire career without even recognizing that they exist. However, for non-UK issues, the difference can be crucial.)
As I have said several times, I am entirely comfortable with the notion that "detail of US patents and European patents would be better off dealt with in their own separate articles." My objection is the repeated violations of this very principle by Kcordina and EdColins. Rather than rearranging and moving material to where they think it might be more approriate, or correcting errors, they have both repeatedly discarded work of a number of contributors. That must stop. Anyone is welcome to correct my work, to move it, to improve it, to add to it, to make it more precise (so long as they have the relevant knowledge and exercise the relevant care to do so correctly). But to make progress, we also need a clear statement that there will be no more destruction of content. OK? User:Boundlessly
Note that all I asked for was a stop to discarding and destruction of content, and I granted an express license to anyone - including Kcordina and EdColins - to "correct my work, to move it, to improve it, to add to it, to make it more precise (so long as they have the relevant knowledge and exercise the relevant care to do so correctly)." Kcordina's answer is not precisely responsive to my request. I therefore accept the part of Kcordina's promise that is responsive, and release him/her from the excess of the promise above my request. Thank you. EdColins? User:Boundlessly
I have just added a section "Coexistence of national and European patents" in European patent law, with sources, to build on the discussion (previous section). Cheers. -- Edcolins 09:27, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I've tidied this section up a bit. I think the wording is precise enough that the disputed tag can be removed - does anyone have any other thoughts? -- Harris 08:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
My edit summary on my recent revert might have sounded a little harsh. I just wanted to express that I didn't consider that the slides in the URL cited proved anything, the author wasn't cited and so there was no way to verify how widely held that argument is. I couldn't also see the relevance, or any evidence, that the cost of replicating software is zero. -- Harris 10:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Mashilamani Sambasivam noted that ideas (such as algorithms) and the expression of ideas (such as software) can be replicated at zero cost; [1] thus, the protection of patent rights preserves unfair profits for the inventor. citation needed
was removed. The reason cited for removal was 'no original research'. -Masi76 Masi76 05:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The Patent Reference site looks like an interesting venture, but it appears to be fairly redundant with other references listed. If is grows to the point of providing significant information not otherwise available, then I recommend it be reconsidered for inclusion at that time.
The Wiki it provides looks promising, but it's not at all clear what will be part of the collection. -- Nowa 00:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
There is some concern that the link to inventorbasics.com is an attempt at linkspam. After reviewing the site, however, appears to me to be a genuinely noncommercial web site devoted to providing practical information about patents and the commercialization thereof. It's particularly directed to those that are new to patenting and innovation. It provides useful information that is not readily found in the other sites listed in this section. I understand that with a .com address it may at first glance appear to be commercial but I could not find anything in its content that would violate the standards of Wikipedia. Have I missed something?-- Nowa 10:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
To the last editor that posted "inventor basics": We appreciate your contribution, but I think before you post on the main page, you should propose a posting here and address the concerns expressed above, particularly the need for unique content that is not otherwise available in Wikipedia. A glossary of patent legal terms, for example, is available at patent legal concepts.-- Nowa 01:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I created some problems. I'm Tyson Wilde who submitted inventorbasics.com to the main page. I am new to this and only submitted the website after some of my co-workers encouraged me to do so and I should have paid closer attention to the rules for external links. So let me put in my plug for inventorbasics.com and then I'll let you guys decide whether or not to include it. I do believe that it has some new content, especially on the "patent process" and "patent layout" pages. I'm in charge of the patenting department where I work and these pages are designed to answer (in a way that is easy to understand) questions that the engineers and managers at my work ask every week. I made the flowchart and also marked up a patent so they could have a "visual" explanation and not be required to read a lot text to get the same information. Later down the road I hope to "visually" explain more concepts through inventorbasics.com. Most people I talk to want to skim over a page to find the revelent material quickly and in the patent resources that I'm aware of require a lot of reading to get the gist of the information. You know what they say - a picture is worth a thousand words. So that is what I believe that inventorbasics.com has to offer - information presented to those who are unfamilar with patents in a easy to understand way. All most other patent resouces out their are really directed to people somewhat familar to patents. In light of the "visual" explanations, I ask that you reconsider a link to inventorbasics.com. Please let me know what you decide. Thank you -- Tysonwilde 03:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
When moving various US-specific links to US patent law, I noticed that IPMenu was a service provided by an AU/NZ firm of patent attorneys. I left the link there since it seems to be a useful and balanced set of resources. Advertising by the providers is fairly unobtrusive and links are included to lists of attorneys without the providers appearing first. Nevertheless, if there are any sites providing equivalent resources without advertising, it may desirable to replace this one. Tim B 11:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
As part of a discussion in the talk page for Juris Doctor (under the heading What is new knowledge?) I have pointed out that the Committee on Ways and Means of the U.S. House of Representatives held hearings in July of 2006 on the reported developing practice -- of the United States Patent Office -- of granting patents for tax reduction strategies inherently based on original legal research. I'd like to point out that anyone who is interested may want to see if any discussion develops there about the topic. I am a tax practitioner, not an IP practitioner, but somebody working on this Patent article might be interested in that discussion. Yours, Famspear 22:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this section from the article:
It does not appear popular and significant enough to be included in the article. It sounds rather obscure to me as well. -- Edcolins 07:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
30 August 2006, Mpa5220 added "abandoned":
"...Like any other property right, it may be sold, licensed, mortgaged, assigned or transfered, abandoned, or simply given away."
Is this correct generally? I would not understand abandoning a patent (as opposed to an application, perhaps) to have any specific legal effect. Under UK law, for example, you can allow it to lapse or you can surrender it, but I would not regard that as being the same as simply abandoning it in the most general sense (and it doesn't have a unique special sense around the world). If you simply decide to abandon a patent, you can pick it up again without any problem as long as it's not expired by more than six months (Paris Convention Article 5bis - and even then you may be able to get it restored), but unlike physical property, nobody else can pick it up in the meantime.
In fact, I don't think that there's an international concept of abandoning any sort of IP right other than through it lapsing through non-payment of fees or expiring - in many cases, deemed abandonment would depend on the local laws on estoppel or limitations - this is more likely to be relevant to copyright because patents in most countries would simply expire before the relevant periods had elapsed. If there's a more specific US sense, perhaps that would be better dealt with under US patent law. I would have suggested "allowed to lapse" as being more generic, but obviously that does not fit in with the analogy with property more generally. Tim B 08:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Deleted the example of computer software in the chapter "Economic rationale" in the following sentence:
Third, in many industries (especially those with high fixed costs and low marginal costs and low reverse engineering costs - pharmaceuticals and computer software being two prototypical examples), once an invention exists and has been tested, the cost of turning it into a product is typically less than one sixth the R&D cost.
While this is true for pharmaceuticals (it only takes a chemical laboratory and some time to find out, which chemical substance constitutes a certain pharmaceutical product), this is untrue for computer software. It is not impossible to reverse engineer software, but it takes long time and is not easy, see for example the efforts and slow progress of www.winehq.org and www.reactos.org to replicate MS Windows functionality. -- Schneedrache 10:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
My layman's understanding is that in the US the inventor is protected if s/he files within a certain amount of time following first public disclosure, but that in other important jurisdictions the inventor cannot disclose anything prior filing, and in still others, s/he cannot disclose before the patent is issued! Is this last condition actually true in any important jurisdiction? A table listing these and other conditions (time protected, fees, maintenance, etc.) for the major regions (US, Japan, Europe/International, etc.) would be nice... -- Wfaxon 05:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Template:PatentLaw has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- Edcolins 15:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Template:PatentTypes has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- Edcolins 15:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could put a more iconic image for a patent in the article than the current picture of the patent notices on a Martin ejector seat. I thought perhaps the drawing from one of the early light bulb patents might be better. Any thoughts?-- Nowa 03:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I like the picture of the ejector seat. It somehow shows that a patent is not just a piece of paper but relates to a tangible invention. Maybe the light bulb is a bit cliché. -- Edcolins 19:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous user added a section on patent wikis and it was subsequently removed by one of our more senior editors. It seems to me that links to patent wikis would be a reasonable addition to the article since they are publicly available resources. Beth Noveck's site in particular is designed to be a resource for patent examiners. Other thoughts?-- Nowa 20:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
-- Nowa 03:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
(rest of discussion moved into its own heading)
Alright, let's keep these external links. However, I would suggest to move them in another, new article. I suggest: Wiki review in patent prosecution. It is a notable reality, quite recent indeed but notable enough, to me. I haven't found a better title, yet accurately reflecting this topic. Feel free to suggest another title! And please help improving this stub. Thanks. -- Edcolins 23:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Hey you guys are moving too fast for me today. I went ahead and put a section on patent wikis in prior art. In the meantime, you created a whole new article. -- Nowa 17:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Is there a template that allows me to enter the basic information about a patent, and be redirected to an appropriate website? eg.
{{Template:PatentIndex|Country=US|Number=20040230959|Type=Software|Description=IS NOT OPERATOR}}
Would give me a the text "Patent: IS NOT OPERATOR (20040230959)" and an embedded link (↑) to the US Patent Office web site http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=20040230959&OS=20040230959&RS=20040230959
Pls show me how this is (can be) done.
ThanX NevilleDNZ 08:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Template:US patent will do the job nicely. And re: "patent type", it was just a thought, but clearly not a priority. I will use Template:US patent ThanX 18:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I tried to use [Template:Cite_Patent]] but it doesn't pull up this 2004 application (20040230959). eg http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=ALGOL_68&oldid=114858287#Assignation_and_Identity_Relations So I switched to Template:US_patent_application, and it worked dandy.
I am not sure what the problem is, it could be a cut off date problem, or that this number is only a patent application. Any hints?
NevilleDNZ 19:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, US 2004230959 refers to what appears to be the same idea. It seems reasonable to drop the "almost" leading zero, but it is odd. Also not that this idea is currently only an "application". I am guessing it gets a real/different number when the applications is granted? NevilleDNZ 19:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Wanna comment on points 3 and 4, since 1 and 2 seem standard. They are already marked citation needed and attribution needed, but I wanna point out some more:
These businesses don't have too much in common.
Also, assumed the comp was stupid enough to publish the R&D result, some other company would do it, since in economic theory there is competition even at the margin, and high FC, low MC businesses are not uncommon. So either I don't get it or there is no point here.
I don't exactly see the immediate econ. benefit here. Suppose A makes drug X, then B develops replacement Y, spending millions/billions, only to have two virtually identical products? Again, explanation and/or attribution would be needed.
I'm no expert here, but to put this under Rationale seems a little bold. There is a lot of talk out there about submarine patents, patent trolls and a general rise of misuse of the system. This paragraph would fit (among others) a patent troll.-- 83.189.75.134 12:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Any external link to the origin of software patents, and a general account of the early battles (Microsoft DOS etc)? Couldn't find a separate article.-- Shtove 21:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Software patents have been around as long as there has been software. They've only relatively recently come into the public eye, however, so more and more individuals are now filing patents and being affected by them, as illustrated in List of software patents. GDallimore ( Talk) 23:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
There was a recent edit introducing the term "patent grabbing". This was a potentially interesting addition, but needed to be sourced. A quick look at Google showed only 150 hits on "patent grabbing" and among these, the term was used in a number of different ways.-- Nowa 11:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
If I implement something covered by a paten for which I do not have a licence, but for which I do profit from, would I be breaking the law under most jursdictions? I.e. does a patent protect from all duplication or only duplication in a comercial context?
Is Egbert v. Lippman still valid precedent? Should this observation be moved to US patent law?-- Nowa 12:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
So, every (or almost all) patent granted before 1987 has expired?, for example MS-DOS, Windows 2.0, Intel 8086 architecture, PACMAN, PONG and such?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.222.157.49 ( talk) 10:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
"A patent is not a right to practice or use the invention." - This is rubbish. A patent is the exclusive right to do this. It is not merely a right to exclude others from doing so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.158.167 ( talk) 00:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
GDallimore, why did you integrally revert my edits on 9 february? 84.41.231.64 ( talk) 08:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Why is this sentence
in the criticism section? Besides, no source has been provided to verify this bold affirmation, for all patent offices throughout the world, not just in the US. I am planning to remove it again. Any thoughts? -- Edcolins ( talk) 20:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Small paragraph is all that's needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericg33 ( talk • contribs) 20:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I have started a section on costs, to be improved, updated and globalized. Litigation cost estimates would be interesting as well. Cheers. -- Edcolins ( talk) 11:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
(Note 3) DLA Piper Rudnick Gray Cary (2005) Patent Litigation across Europe, handout available as per this link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.95.99 ( talk) 08:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help) Link directly to
slides.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
This is Boundlessly Talk . I'm coming from the perspective of an intellectual property attorney who advises/negotiates on U.S. and multinational licensing and/or corporate merger/acquisition issues. The material I added on EPC, PCT and territorial effect of a patent are issues that come up all the time in my practice (my rule-of-thumb for relevance is "If I've encountered the issue for a paying client at least twice in the last few years, it's Wiki-able.") I'm only licensed to practice in the U.S., though I deal extensively with European patents, and I've gotten lots of second-hand advice from my European collegues and from treatises. The two folks who are most adamant about reverting my work out - EdColins and Kcordina - what's your perspective? What are the bases for your opinions on what belongs here and what doesn't? (Do either of you have practical experience in the full economic life process of patents that would give you a reliable basis to determine "If an edit does not improve an article" before you are "bold and react?")
A European "patent" is not a patent. It conveys no substantive rights. It is essentially a voucher that you have to take to a national patent office. EPC Art. 64. If you don't register within the time limit specified under national law, you have nothing. If you register in some countries and not others, you have nothing in the non-registered countries. Look more carefully at Part II of the EPC titled "Substantive Law" - it only governs "European patents." Since a "European patent" is not a substantive "patent," Part II cannot have any "substantive law" effect. (EdColins, in most U.S. jurisdictions, legal conclusions that are contrary to the text, and supported only by section titles, are frowned on - what's the rule in your jurisdiction?) Substantive rights are determined solely by national law (EPC Art 64(3)), and that national law varies significantly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction - it's resonably common for different states to apply different patentability criteria for the different national registrations of a single European patent. Do I recall correctly that an EP "patent" can be invalid in one jurisdiction and valid in others? EdColins' quote from EPC Art 65 proves my point, and has nothing to do with the proposition for which EdColins cites it - it only says that the applicant has to supply a translation - Art 65 says nothing about substantive effect of the European patent in any national jurisdiction.
EdColins is correct to the extent that the Strasbourg Convention is in essentially the same class as the Paris Convention, so my work has to be corrected in that respect. In American parlance, we would call it a treaty that is not "self executing." Neither Paris nor Strasbourg create substantive rights; accession to the treaty is merely a promise by the member states to conform their national substantive standards to those specified in the Convention. (Paris Convention is similarly "non self-executing," at least in the U.S.) Substantive rights arise only when the terms of the convention are enacted into national law. This contrasts to both the EPC and PCT, neither of which creates any substantive right (except the procedural effect of preserving priority claims during prosecution under EPC or PCT).
The paragraph about territorial and nature-of-infringement limits was added in answer to a specific question in this discussion page. This is something I have to advise clients on fairly regularly. I've had millions of dollars turn on this issue. One of the two of you has a strong feeling that this is not relevant, so you reverted it out, without leaving behind an explanation - please explain your objection, and your basis for so believing. If you addg a flag requesting a rewrite, it'll get rewritten. If you simply delete it, then the prompt to make something better is gone, and so is the answer to the question that some reader asked. That is not consistent with your roles as admins, is it.
So, I have a Strasbourg problem that is relatively easy to fix. In contrast, the existing text on EPC and PCT is at best misleading - I have had $x00 million deals get held up for days because someone on the deal held the erroneous impressions stated in the existing text. I would like to not have a deal held up because someone in the transaction is misguided because of an error here. How shall we meet in the middle?
It also appears that EdColins and Kcordina seem to have very definite and expansive defintions of material that is to be deleted or not useful - both seem to be very liberal in throwing out others' work (mine as well as others'), without moving it to somewhere else that might be more appropriate. This seems at the least to be extraordinarily rude, and is also remarkably counterproductive to encouraging knowledgable experts in the field to make useful contributions. Would we at least have an agreement that if you think material is appropriate (as opposed to bald spam) you will move it to some other article instead of discarding it outright?
Based on the not-entirely-correct facts that EdColins and Kcordina keep reverting to, and the important facts that they allege to be "not improvements," it's not at all clear that they have specific subject matter knowledge. Wouldn't it be appropriate for them to be be more deferential to those that do? (I've done three transactions in the last 13 years involving over $1 billion in patents, and have licensed a couple patents I wrote for over $1 million each - I have some idea what is commerically important and what isn't.) I will make no further contributions to any patent-related subject until EdColins and Kcordina both state on this page that they will be using a much lighter hand in policing content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.138.184 ( talk)
Thank you TimB, for finally adressing the substantive issue in a legally-relevant way. As I said, I am only an American lawyer, not a UK lawyer, and my understanding was wrong to the following extent. I agree that Section 77 of The Patents Act 1977 [12] under UK national law gives UK national law effect to EPO publication. Thus, as a practical matter, under UK law a "European patent (UK)" has all the attibutes of a patent in the UK. However, it's important to note that this is a quirk of UK law, which gives substantive effect under UK law to an action of a non-UK agency, the EPO (thus, by national law, defining the national condition for the limitation "in each Contracting State in respect of which it is granted" of EPC Art. 64(1)). UK section 77 and EPC Art. 64(1) both seem to confirm - correct me if I'm wrong - that the substantive right - even in the UK - does not arise by self-executing operation of the EPC itself, until there is a "grant" under national law.
I understand that other EPC member states do things differently, and it is therefore important not to state or imply that an EP patent is by that fact alone a patent. I understand that very few actions of any EU body are self-executing, they almost all require adoption into national law. I understand that the EPC is similar, in that it is not self-executing, and leaves the conditions for "national grant" to national law. The EPC only states the effect of national grant. So far, UK section 77 is the only text that has been mentioned in this discussion that states the conditions on which a "national grant" of an EP patent occurs. (Under U.S. practice, there would be no need for UK section 77 if the EPC and an EP B1 were self-executing in all designated states - how do things work in Europe?) I understand that it's fairly common for an EP application to designate 15 countries, then issue and mature into a "national grant" and right to exclude in only four - the treaty and the EP B1 issue are not self-executing as "national grants" in the other 11, because other countries do not have a national statute similar to UK Section 77. Is my understanding correct?
(If so, here's why we view this differently. Here in the states, we constantly have situations of multi-jurisdictional layering of law: there's a tort under the law of state A, the events took place in state B, the tort is relevant to determining breach of a contract that specified the law of state C, and the parties are in the courts of state D. Which law applies, and what effect does state D give to the law of the other states? So a U.S. lawyer has to be very attuned to multi-jurisdiction choice of law issues. In contrast, I suspect that, because of the way UK law adopts the acts of the EPO as if done by the UK Patent Office, a UK lawyer advising on a "European patent (UK)" can just ignore all the multi-jurisdictional choice of law issues - and can probably go through an entire career without even recognizing that they exist. However, for non-UK issues, the difference can be crucial.)
As I have said several times, I am entirely comfortable with the notion that "detail of US patents and European patents would be better off dealt with in their own separate articles." My objection is the repeated violations of this very principle by Kcordina and EdColins. Rather than rearranging and moving material to where they think it might be more approriate, or correcting errors, they have both repeatedly discarded work of a number of contributors. That must stop. Anyone is welcome to correct my work, to move it, to improve it, to add to it, to make it more precise (so long as they have the relevant knowledge and exercise the relevant care to do so correctly). But to make progress, we also need a clear statement that there will be no more destruction of content. OK? User:Boundlessly
Note that all I asked for was a stop to discarding and destruction of content, and I granted an express license to anyone - including Kcordina and EdColins - to "correct my work, to move it, to improve it, to add to it, to make it more precise (so long as they have the relevant knowledge and exercise the relevant care to do so correctly)." Kcordina's answer is not precisely responsive to my request. I therefore accept the part of Kcordina's promise that is responsive, and release him/her from the excess of the promise above my request. Thank you. EdColins? User:Boundlessly
I have just added a section "Coexistence of national and European patents" in European patent law, with sources, to build on the discussion (previous section). Cheers. -- Edcolins 09:27, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I've tidied this section up a bit. I think the wording is precise enough that the disputed tag can be removed - does anyone have any other thoughts? -- Harris 08:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
My edit summary on my recent revert might have sounded a little harsh. I just wanted to express that I didn't consider that the slides in the URL cited proved anything, the author wasn't cited and so there was no way to verify how widely held that argument is. I couldn't also see the relevance, or any evidence, that the cost of replicating software is zero. -- Harris 10:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
Mashilamani Sambasivam noted that ideas (such as algorithms) and the expression of ideas (such as software) can be replicated at zero cost; [1] thus, the protection of patent rights preserves unfair profits for the inventor. citation needed
was removed. The reason cited for removal was 'no original research'. -Masi76 Masi76 05:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The Patent Reference site looks like an interesting venture, but it appears to be fairly redundant with other references listed. If is grows to the point of providing significant information not otherwise available, then I recommend it be reconsidered for inclusion at that time.
The Wiki it provides looks promising, but it's not at all clear what will be part of the collection. -- Nowa 00:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
There is some concern that the link to inventorbasics.com is an attempt at linkspam. After reviewing the site, however, appears to me to be a genuinely noncommercial web site devoted to providing practical information about patents and the commercialization thereof. It's particularly directed to those that are new to patenting and innovation. It provides useful information that is not readily found in the other sites listed in this section. I understand that with a .com address it may at first glance appear to be commercial but I could not find anything in its content that would violate the standards of Wikipedia. Have I missed something?-- Nowa 10:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
To the last editor that posted "inventor basics": We appreciate your contribution, but I think before you post on the main page, you should propose a posting here and address the concerns expressed above, particularly the need for unique content that is not otherwise available in Wikipedia. A glossary of patent legal terms, for example, is available at patent legal concepts.-- Nowa 01:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry if I created some problems. I'm Tyson Wilde who submitted inventorbasics.com to the main page. I am new to this and only submitted the website after some of my co-workers encouraged me to do so and I should have paid closer attention to the rules for external links. So let me put in my plug for inventorbasics.com and then I'll let you guys decide whether or not to include it. I do believe that it has some new content, especially on the "patent process" and "patent layout" pages. I'm in charge of the patenting department where I work and these pages are designed to answer (in a way that is easy to understand) questions that the engineers and managers at my work ask every week. I made the flowchart and also marked up a patent so they could have a "visual" explanation and not be required to read a lot text to get the same information. Later down the road I hope to "visually" explain more concepts through inventorbasics.com. Most people I talk to want to skim over a page to find the revelent material quickly and in the patent resources that I'm aware of require a lot of reading to get the gist of the information. You know what they say - a picture is worth a thousand words. So that is what I believe that inventorbasics.com has to offer - information presented to those who are unfamilar with patents in a easy to understand way. All most other patent resouces out their are really directed to people somewhat familar to patents. In light of the "visual" explanations, I ask that you reconsider a link to inventorbasics.com. Please let me know what you decide. Thank you -- Tysonwilde 03:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
When moving various US-specific links to US patent law, I noticed that IPMenu was a service provided by an AU/NZ firm of patent attorneys. I left the link there since it seems to be a useful and balanced set of resources. Advertising by the providers is fairly unobtrusive and links are included to lists of attorneys without the providers appearing first. Nevertheless, if there are any sites providing equivalent resources without advertising, it may desirable to replace this one. Tim B 11:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
As part of a discussion in the talk page for Juris Doctor (under the heading What is new knowledge?) I have pointed out that the Committee on Ways and Means of the U.S. House of Representatives held hearings in July of 2006 on the reported developing practice -- of the United States Patent Office -- of granting patents for tax reduction strategies inherently based on original legal research. I'd like to point out that anyone who is interested may want to see if any discussion develops there about the topic. I am a tax practitioner, not an IP practitioner, but somebody working on this Patent article might be interested in that discussion. Yours, Famspear 22:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I have removed this section from the article:
It does not appear popular and significant enough to be included in the article. It sounds rather obscure to me as well. -- Edcolins 07:40, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
30 August 2006, Mpa5220 added "abandoned":
"...Like any other property right, it may be sold, licensed, mortgaged, assigned or transfered, abandoned, or simply given away."
Is this correct generally? I would not understand abandoning a patent (as opposed to an application, perhaps) to have any specific legal effect. Under UK law, for example, you can allow it to lapse or you can surrender it, but I would not regard that as being the same as simply abandoning it in the most general sense (and it doesn't have a unique special sense around the world). If you simply decide to abandon a patent, you can pick it up again without any problem as long as it's not expired by more than six months (Paris Convention Article 5bis - and even then you may be able to get it restored), but unlike physical property, nobody else can pick it up in the meantime.
In fact, I don't think that there's an international concept of abandoning any sort of IP right other than through it lapsing through non-payment of fees or expiring - in many cases, deemed abandonment would depend on the local laws on estoppel or limitations - this is more likely to be relevant to copyright because patents in most countries would simply expire before the relevant periods had elapsed. If there's a more specific US sense, perhaps that would be better dealt with under US patent law. I would have suggested "allowed to lapse" as being more generic, but obviously that does not fit in with the analogy with property more generally. Tim B 08:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Deleted the example of computer software in the chapter "Economic rationale" in the following sentence:
Third, in many industries (especially those with high fixed costs and low marginal costs and low reverse engineering costs - pharmaceuticals and computer software being two prototypical examples), once an invention exists and has been tested, the cost of turning it into a product is typically less than one sixth the R&D cost.
While this is true for pharmaceuticals (it only takes a chemical laboratory and some time to find out, which chemical substance constitutes a certain pharmaceutical product), this is untrue for computer software. It is not impossible to reverse engineer software, but it takes long time and is not easy, see for example the efforts and slow progress of www.winehq.org and www.reactos.org to replicate MS Windows functionality. -- Schneedrache 10:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
My layman's understanding is that in the US the inventor is protected if s/he files within a certain amount of time following first public disclosure, but that in other important jurisdictions the inventor cannot disclose anything prior filing, and in still others, s/he cannot disclose before the patent is issued! Is this last condition actually true in any important jurisdiction? A table listing these and other conditions (time protected, fees, maintenance, etc.) for the major regions (US, Japan, Europe/International, etc.) would be nice... -- Wfaxon 05:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Template:PatentLaw has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- Edcolins 15:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Template:PatentTypes has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- Edcolins 15:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could put a more iconic image for a patent in the article than the current picture of the patent notices on a Martin ejector seat. I thought perhaps the drawing from one of the early light bulb patents might be better. Any thoughts?-- Nowa 03:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I like the picture of the ejector seat. It somehow shows that a patent is not just a piece of paper but relates to a tangible invention. Maybe the light bulb is a bit cliché. -- Edcolins 19:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
An anonymous user added a section on patent wikis and it was subsequently removed by one of our more senior editors. It seems to me that links to patent wikis would be a reasonable addition to the article since they are publicly available resources. Beth Noveck's site in particular is designed to be a resource for patent examiners. Other thoughts?-- Nowa 20:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
-- Nowa 03:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
(rest of discussion moved into its own heading)
Alright, let's keep these external links. However, I would suggest to move them in another, new article. I suggest: Wiki review in patent prosecution. It is a notable reality, quite recent indeed but notable enough, to me. I haven't found a better title, yet accurately reflecting this topic. Feel free to suggest another title! And please help improving this stub. Thanks. -- Edcolins 23:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Hey you guys are moving too fast for me today. I went ahead and put a section on patent wikis in prior art. In the meantime, you created a whole new article. -- Nowa 17:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Is there a template that allows me to enter the basic information about a patent, and be redirected to an appropriate website? eg.
{{Template:PatentIndex|Country=US|Number=20040230959|Type=Software|Description=IS NOT OPERATOR}}
Would give me a the text "Patent: IS NOT OPERATOR (20040230959)" and an embedded link (↑) to the US Patent Office web site http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=20040230959&OS=20040230959&RS=20040230959
Pls show me how this is (can be) done.
ThanX NevilleDNZ 08:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Template:US patent will do the job nicely. And re: "patent type", it was just a thought, but clearly not a priority. I will use Template:US patent ThanX 18:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I tried to use [Template:Cite_Patent]] but it doesn't pull up this 2004 application (20040230959). eg http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=ALGOL_68&oldid=114858287#Assignation_and_Identity_Relations So I switched to Template:US_patent_application, and it worked dandy.
I am not sure what the problem is, it could be a cut off date problem, or that this number is only a patent application. Any hints?
NevilleDNZ 19:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, US 2004230959 refers to what appears to be the same idea. It seems reasonable to drop the "almost" leading zero, but it is odd. Also not that this idea is currently only an "application". I am guessing it gets a real/different number when the applications is granted? NevilleDNZ 19:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Wanna comment on points 3 and 4, since 1 and 2 seem standard. They are already marked citation needed and attribution needed, but I wanna point out some more:
These businesses don't have too much in common.
Also, assumed the comp was stupid enough to publish the R&D result, some other company would do it, since in economic theory there is competition even at the margin, and high FC, low MC businesses are not uncommon. So either I don't get it or there is no point here.
I don't exactly see the immediate econ. benefit here. Suppose A makes drug X, then B develops replacement Y, spending millions/billions, only to have two virtually identical products? Again, explanation and/or attribution would be needed.
I'm no expert here, but to put this under Rationale seems a little bold. There is a lot of talk out there about submarine patents, patent trolls and a general rise of misuse of the system. This paragraph would fit (among others) a patent troll.-- 83.189.75.134 12:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Any external link to the origin of software patents, and a general account of the early battles (Microsoft DOS etc)? Couldn't find a separate article.-- Shtove 21:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Software patents have been around as long as there has been software. They've only relatively recently come into the public eye, however, so more and more individuals are now filing patents and being affected by them, as illustrated in List of software patents. GDallimore ( Talk) 23:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
There was a recent edit introducing the term "patent grabbing". This was a potentially interesting addition, but needed to be sourced. A quick look at Google showed only 150 hits on "patent grabbing" and among these, the term was used in a number of different ways.-- Nowa 11:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
If I implement something covered by a paten for which I do not have a licence, but for which I do profit from, would I be breaking the law under most jursdictions? I.e. does a patent protect from all duplication or only duplication in a comercial context?
Is Egbert v. Lippman still valid precedent? Should this observation be moved to US patent law?-- Nowa 12:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
So, every (or almost all) patent granted before 1987 has expired?, for example MS-DOS, Windows 2.0, Intel 8086 architecture, PACMAN, PONG and such?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.222.157.49 ( talk) 10:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
"A patent is not a right to practice or use the invention." - This is rubbish. A patent is the exclusive right to do this. It is not merely a right to exclude others from doing so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.158.167 ( talk) 00:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
GDallimore, why did you integrally revert my edits on 9 february? 84.41.231.64 ( talk) 08:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Why is this sentence
in the criticism section? Besides, no source has been provided to verify this bold affirmation, for all patent offices throughout the world, not just in the US. I am planning to remove it again. Any thoughts? -- Edcolins ( talk) 20:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Small paragraph is all that's needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericg33 ( talk • contribs) 20:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I have started a section on costs, to be improved, updated and globalized. Litigation cost estimates would be interesting as well. Cheers. -- Edcolins ( talk) 11:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
(Note 3) DLA Piper Rudnick Gray Cary (2005) Patent Litigation across Europe, handout available as per this link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.95.99 ( talk) 08:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
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