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(Moved from up there ↑ somewhere)
Just had to say - the bit in the article about bal maidens standing at the top of the mineshaft calling "Oggy oggy oggy" to which the miners replied "oi oi oi" as they came to collect the pasties dropped down to them by the women - this is a joke right? It's so ludicrous I can't believe someone would even write it... ( Maryjane22 ( talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 15:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
What I meant was that mineshafts were/are hundreds and sometimes thousands of feet deep. The deepest, Robinson's Shaft at Dolcoath in Camborne, was 3300ft deep. After descending, miners would walk sometimes long distances to get to their area of work; my point is that once you were down there, you could hear no noise from the surface and also, anything thrown down the shaft would be smashed to pieces against the walls long before it hit the bottom. To be fair, the article you cite does not mention pasties being thrown down shafts, it refers to the call of travelling pasty sellers. I don't know whether such sellers ever existed, but I think that the word 'oggy' is of fairly recent usage in Cornwall and on the whole, disliked by Cornish people. I never heard my parents or grandparents use the word and I would not say that it is generally used even now, usually it is visitors and people who have moved from elsewhere to live in Cornwall who say 'oggy'. In the article, there is a reference to the song by Cyril Tawney about a pasty seller; Cyril was a Devon man, so perhaps 'oggy' is a Devon word which has crept over the border. One last thing, pasties now seem to have become associated almost entirely with miners, as if they were exclusively created for and used by them. The pasty was originally (and still is of course) the perfect 'packed lunch' and was eaten by farm workers, clay workers and all types of working people (the only exception being apparently, fishermen, who considered it unlucky to take a pasty on board boat). School children would take pasties to school and if they were lucky, the pasties would be warmed up on the school's iron stove so that could have them hot for dinner. My father used to say that the smell of the pasties warming would distract from his lessons - not that that was very difficult I gather! Having said that, a cold pasty is still a delicious thing; if a pasty could not be finished when hot, it would be saved for supper and enjoyed cold. ( Maryjane22 ( talk) 09:08, 18 April 2013 (UTC))
This is the problem. It is not enough to quote an article from a newspaper or magazine or other online site and present it as a fact. Hardly ever do the original articles cite properly detailed and authenticated sources and yet they are repeated as if they were gospel. For example, how do we know that miners held their pasty by the crimp? I've seen several old photos of miners underground eating their pasties 'end to end', held in paper or a piece of cloth, but not even one of anyone holding it by the crimp. Again, an online Cornish-English dictionary gives the meaning of "hogan" as "hawthorn" and gives "pasti" for "pasty"; this is similar to the Welsh "pastai", meaning "pie or pasty". I just mean that if a statement cannot be properly and reliably referenced and sourced, then it probably is as Bretonbanquet says, an urban myth. There is a relevant quote in this week's Radio Times p9; "Senator Daniel Moynihan once told Americans that they were entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts". I'm not sure why people want to create theories and stories about the pasty, it's just an item of food. Is there any other foodstuff anywhere in the world to have been the subject of so much myth and legend? ( Maryjane22 ( talk) 11:00, 24 April 2013 (UTC))
I vaguely remember a reference to "Oggie" being naval slang for a pasty in a Douglas Reeman book. That would be a long time before there were all intarwebs and stuff.
But I too have heard the salesman theory of the chant - it enables the seller & buyer to home in on each other in narrow city streets.
The dropping down a mineshaft idea is dumb. Even before the obsession with risk assessment the idea that there'd a be a hole in the ground you could just walk up to is ludicrous. Anyone who's actually seen a mine would know that you can't even see the shaft - there's all the winding gear on top of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.128.172.225 ( talk) 13:04, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Are the amount of categories this article is in a bit overkill?-- Porthenys ( talk) 17:00, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
I disagree that 'pasty' and 'Cornish pasty' are synonymous, especially in the UK. I've always thought that the latter is a variety of the former, made with specific ingredients. A cheese and onion pasty isn't a Cornish pasty but one made with beef and diced veg usually is, regardless of where they're made. VEO one five 22:50, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest that an item of food made by putting meat, fish, vegetables or fruit etc on a piece of pastry, sealing it and then cooking it by one or another means is an ancient and international method of preparing a conveniently portable meal. We know that such meals have been prepared and eaten in the UK for centuries and have been called pasties, turnovers and a dozen other things for all I know. In the days when working class families ate only what was available and what they could afford, it's probably safe to say that almost anything would have been used to make pies, pasties or turnovers. Cornwall would have been no different. I have an old cookbook of my mother's, produced locally by a Cornish W.I. which gives recipes for pasties using rabbit, fish, pork or bacon. The families of miners, farmers, clay workers, fishermen etc were poor; pasties were working men's food and wives and mothers, like working class women everywhere, used what they could to provide good, nourishing food. In those days, Cornwall was a very poor and remote county, so maybe Cornish women had to be even more resourceful; it was said that the Devil would never cross the Tamar into Cornwll for fear that he would be put into a pasty! At some point (and I would suggest that it was relatively recently, maybe the early nineteenth century?) what is now referred to as a Cornish pasty became the default recipe and was subsequently taken by Cornish miners to other parts of the world. It is true that the Cornish do not refer to a pasty as a Cornish pasty (anymore than they refer to it as an 'oggy'), it's just a pasty. If you are going to buy a veggie or a cheese pasty, you'd call it that. To the Cornish, a pasty is made with raw beef, potatoes and onion, with a bit of turnip (swede to the non-Cornish)if you like it. Within families, other things may be added or left out for individual preferences - my uncle liked a bit of chopped up kidney in his pasty - and that's why an initial may be put on the pasty so that each family member gets the one meant for him or her. I don't think we can claim that the pasty originated in Cornwall, but the Cornish pasty, with raw beef and vegetables, obviously did. We also should remember that the shop pasties bought in their millions by tourists come in infinite varieties, but in Cornish homes, only the traditional recipe is made, variously tweaked for individual family members as I have described. If a Cornish woman offers to make you a pasty, that's what you'll get. I made my first pasty when I was seven years old, at my mother's kitchen table and since then, I must have made thousands! Generally, pasties were made once a week for the midday meal, often on a Saturday and many Cornish families still adhere to this tradition. I still do, although these days there's usually only me to eat it! ( Maryjane22 ( talk) 09:20, 6 July 2013 (UTC))
Thank you. I had only intended to contribute towards the discussion; much of what we now take as 'fact' about the humble pasty is actually based on conjecture and guesswork rather than 'reliable sources'. I now feel appropriately patronised.( Maryjane22 ( talk) 10:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC))
Well said Maryjane22! The article puts far too much emphasis on the 'Cornish' over the 'pasty' - being half Cornish and half Devon i just dont see why the article is so exclusive - having made them in London (to the traditional Cornish/Devon recipe) i am inundated with comments from my European colleagues as to how they have them too - but they call them 'X' or 'Y' - similar dishes exist in Spain (empanada - different fillings but look identical) , Sicily & Italy (separately) and Poland (made with lamb i believe- dont remember the name) not to mention the various regional British versions ( Bridie Bedfordshire Clanger etc) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nenniu ( talk • contribs) 20:23, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Came here to say something similar, the article reads like an attempt to annex "pasty" to mean a Cornish Pasty. Viewed through the lens of controversy surrounding the geographic protection of the "Cornish Pasty" it seems blatantly revisionist. There is even a reference to an "official pasty" under variations (which is unsurprisingly of the Cornish variety.)
The vast majority of pasties in the UK are not Cornish, and are visually and culinarily distinct from Cornish pasties. No one would consider it acceptable to re-write the article on Cheese to refer specifically to Cheddar with only a begrudging footnote to acknowledge plethora of alternatives. Serious NPOV issues IMHO -- 86.140.100.93 ( talk) 12:26, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Having looked at the list of references at the end of the article, it seems that not all of them are as trustworthy as might be hoped. A good number, especially newspaper and magazine articles from both the UK and abroad, seem to do little more than perpetuate the misinformation currently presented as fact about the pasty and its origins. For serious students of the history of Cornish food, I thought it would be useful to suggest two very valuable sources of information:
WRIGHT, Mary, 'Cornish Treats' (Alison Hodge, 1986)
HAMILTON JENKIN, A.K., 'Cornwall and its People' (first published J M Dent 1945). There is a whole chapter entitled 'Food - Ordinary and Extraordinary.'
The latter title is a composite work of three titles originally published separately and is an invaluable source of information for anyone keen to know more about the true history of Cornwall and the Cornish. Both the titles I have listed are unfortunately out of print but are available from various online booksellers etc. I hope that this information will prove to be of use to interested parties. ( Primrosewoods ( talk) 14:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC))
How do I not see any mention of ketchup in this article? I eat pasties with my grandma from the U.P. (Michigan's Upper Peninsula) and it's practically unheard of to eat these things without ketchup! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sloth monkey ( talk • contribs) 07:38, 8 April 2014
They do shocking things to pastys in the states- the man v food episide featuring butte pastys had me speechless: they were upside down meat pies with chilli con carne and processed cheese dolloped on top! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.60.209.146 ( talk) 11:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Brears' comments on the origins of the pasty have been widely reported in reliable sources - [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], etc. Brears is a respected food historian with many publications - [6] - and is, for example, cited 10 times in the Oxford Companion to Food. So, his comments should be mentioned in this article. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 08:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
Just putting this heading up in case the IP who has been removing the term "national dish" wants to engage in any discussion. That's what numerous sources call it, and the term "nation" has many meanings. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 12:48, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
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I recently saw a printed ad for apple pie and pumpkin "pusties" from Caruso's bakery in Utica, NY. I'm from MI originally, where pasties (versus pusties) are well known meat pies of upstate tourism. In Wikipedia, "Pusty" redirects you to Pasticiotto (pastry), [1] while the Wikipedia Pasty article says, "Despite the modern pasty's strong association with Cornwall (U.K.), its exact origins are unclear." [2] I'm betting that the folks of Cornwall, England may have also used/modified the pasticiotti pastry for a meat pie versus a fruit pie (pusty). Abbreviating it as "pasti" would explain the name "pasties" (pronounced with a short A) that we've always known them by in Michigan--an even closer cognate than the "pusties" of Utica, NY. (There is also a plural form, "pasticiotti".) — Juliekadams ( talk) 23:23, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
References
In the picture at our Joan of Kent article, she’s holding what looks like a Cornish pasty. Is that what it is? Overlordnat1 ( talk) 23:36, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Pasty article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Pasty has been listed as one of the Agriculture, food and drink good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
|
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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(Moved from up there ↑ somewhere)
Just had to say - the bit in the article about bal maidens standing at the top of the mineshaft calling "Oggy oggy oggy" to which the miners replied "oi oi oi" as they came to collect the pasties dropped down to them by the women - this is a joke right? It's so ludicrous I can't believe someone would even write it... ( Maryjane22 ( talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 15:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
What I meant was that mineshafts were/are hundreds and sometimes thousands of feet deep. The deepest, Robinson's Shaft at Dolcoath in Camborne, was 3300ft deep. After descending, miners would walk sometimes long distances to get to their area of work; my point is that once you were down there, you could hear no noise from the surface and also, anything thrown down the shaft would be smashed to pieces against the walls long before it hit the bottom. To be fair, the article you cite does not mention pasties being thrown down shafts, it refers to the call of travelling pasty sellers. I don't know whether such sellers ever existed, but I think that the word 'oggy' is of fairly recent usage in Cornwall and on the whole, disliked by Cornish people. I never heard my parents or grandparents use the word and I would not say that it is generally used even now, usually it is visitors and people who have moved from elsewhere to live in Cornwall who say 'oggy'. In the article, there is a reference to the song by Cyril Tawney about a pasty seller; Cyril was a Devon man, so perhaps 'oggy' is a Devon word which has crept over the border. One last thing, pasties now seem to have become associated almost entirely with miners, as if they were exclusively created for and used by them. The pasty was originally (and still is of course) the perfect 'packed lunch' and was eaten by farm workers, clay workers and all types of working people (the only exception being apparently, fishermen, who considered it unlucky to take a pasty on board boat). School children would take pasties to school and if they were lucky, the pasties would be warmed up on the school's iron stove so that could have them hot for dinner. My father used to say that the smell of the pasties warming would distract from his lessons - not that that was very difficult I gather! Having said that, a cold pasty is still a delicious thing; if a pasty could not be finished when hot, it would be saved for supper and enjoyed cold. ( Maryjane22 ( talk) 09:08, 18 April 2013 (UTC))
This is the problem. It is not enough to quote an article from a newspaper or magazine or other online site and present it as a fact. Hardly ever do the original articles cite properly detailed and authenticated sources and yet they are repeated as if they were gospel. For example, how do we know that miners held their pasty by the crimp? I've seen several old photos of miners underground eating their pasties 'end to end', held in paper or a piece of cloth, but not even one of anyone holding it by the crimp. Again, an online Cornish-English dictionary gives the meaning of "hogan" as "hawthorn" and gives "pasti" for "pasty"; this is similar to the Welsh "pastai", meaning "pie or pasty". I just mean that if a statement cannot be properly and reliably referenced and sourced, then it probably is as Bretonbanquet says, an urban myth. There is a relevant quote in this week's Radio Times p9; "Senator Daniel Moynihan once told Americans that they were entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts". I'm not sure why people want to create theories and stories about the pasty, it's just an item of food. Is there any other foodstuff anywhere in the world to have been the subject of so much myth and legend? ( Maryjane22 ( talk) 11:00, 24 April 2013 (UTC))
I vaguely remember a reference to "Oggie" being naval slang for a pasty in a Douglas Reeman book. That would be a long time before there were all intarwebs and stuff.
But I too have heard the salesman theory of the chant - it enables the seller & buyer to home in on each other in narrow city streets.
The dropping down a mineshaft idea is dumb. Even before the obsession with risk assessment the idea that there'd a be a hole in the ground you could just walk up to is ludicrous. Anyone who's actually seen a mine would know that you can't even see the shaft - there's all the winding gear on top of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.128.172.225 ( talk) 13:04, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Are the amount of categories this article is in a bit overkill?-- Porthenys ( talk) 17:00, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
I disagree that 'pasty' and 'Cornish pasty' are synonymous, especially in the UK. I've always thought that the latter is a variety of the former, made with specific ingredients. A cheese and onion pasty isn't a Cornish pasty but one made with beef and diced veg usually is, regardless of where they're made. VEO one five 22:50, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest that an item of food made by putting meat, fish, vegetables or fruit etc on a piece of pastry, sealing it and then cooking it by one or another means is an ancient and international method of preparing a conveniently portable meal. We know that such meals have been prepared and eaten in the UK for centuries and have been called pasties, turnovers and a dozen other things for all I know. In the days when working class families ate only what was available and what they could afford, it's probably safe to say that almost anything would have been used to make pies, pasties or turnovers. Cornwall would have been no different. I have an old cookbook of my mother's, produced locally by a Cornish W.I. which gives recipes for pasties using rabbit, fish, pork or bacon. The families of miners, farmers, clay workers, fishermen etc were poor; pasties were working men's food and wives and mothers, like working class women everywhere, used what they could to provide good, nourishing food. In those days, Cornwall was a very poor and remote county, so maybe Cornish women had to be even more resourceful; it was said that the Devil would never cross the Tamar into Cornwll for fear that he would be put into a pasty! At some point (and I would suggest that it was relatively recently, maybe the early nineteenth century?) what is now referred to as a Cornish pasty became the default recipe and was subsequently taken by Cornish miners to other parts of the world. It is true that the Cornish do not refer to a pasty as a Cornish pasty (anymore than they refer to it as an 'oggy'), it's just a pasty. If you are going to buy a veggie or a cheese pasty, you'd call it that. To the Cornish, a pasty is made with raw beef, potatoes and onion, with a bit of turnip (swede to the non-Cornish)if you like it. Within families, other things may be added or left out for individual preferences - my uncle liked a bit of chopped up kidney in his pasty - and that's why an initial may be put on the pasty so that each family member gets the one meant for him or her. I don't think we can claim that the pasty originated in Cornwall, but the Cornish pasty, with raw beef and vegetables, obviously did. We also should remember that the shop pasties bought in their millions by tourists come in infinite varieties, but in Cornish homes, only the traditional recipe is made, variously tweaked for individual family members as I have described. If a Cornish woman offers to make you a pasty, that's what you'll get. I made my first pasty when I was seven years old, at my mother's kitchen table and since then, I must have made thousands! Generally, pasties were made once a week for the midday meal, often on a Saturday and many Cornish families still adhere to this tradition. I still do, although these days there's usually only me to eat it! ( Maryjane22 ( talk) 09:20, 6 July 2013 (UTC))
Thank you. I had only intended to contribute towards the discussion; much of what we now take as 'fact' about the humble pasty is actually based on conjecture and guesswork rather than 'reliable sources'. I now feel appropriately patronised.( Maryjane22 ( talk) 10:47, 6 July 2013 (UTC))
Well said Maryjane22! The article puts far too much emphasis on the 'Cornish' over the 'pasty' - being half Cornish and half Devon i just dont see why the article is so exclusive - having made them in London (to the traditional Cornish/Devon recipe) i am inundated with comments from my European colleagues as to how they have them too - but they call them 'X' or 'Y' - similar dishes exist in Spain (empanada - different fillings but look identical) , Sicily & Italy (separately) and Poland (made with lamb i believe- dont remember the name) not to mention the various regional British versions ( Bridie Bedfordshire Clanger etc) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nenniu ( talk • contribs) 20:23, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Came here to say something similar, the article reads like an attempt to annex "pasty" to mean a Cornish Pasty. Viewed through the lens of controversy surrounding the geographic protection of the "Cornish Pasty" it seems blatantly revisionist. There is even a reference to an "official pasty" under variations (which is unsurprisingly of the Cornish variety.)
The vast majority of pasties in the UK are not Cornish, and are visually and culinarily distinct from Cornish pasties. No one would consider it acceptable to re-write the article on Cheese to refer specifically to Cheddar with only a begrudging footnote to acknowledge plethora of alternatives. Serious NPOV issues IMHO -- 86.140.100.93 ( talk) 12:26, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Having looked at the list of references at the end of the article, it seems that not all of them are as trustworthy as might be hoped. A good number, especially newspaper and magazine articles from both the UK and abroad, seem to do little more than perpetuate the misinformation currently presented as fact about the pasty and its origins. For serious students of the history of Cornish food, I thought it would be useful to suggest two very valuable sources of information:
WRIGHT, Mary, 'Cornish Treats' (Alison Hodge, 1986)
HAMILTON JENKIN, A.K., 'Cornwall and its People' (first published J M Dent 1945). There is a whole chapter entitled 'Food - Ordinary and Extraordinary.'
The latter title is a composite work of three titles originally published separately and is an invaluable source of information for anyone keen to know more about the true history of Cornwall and the Cornish. Both the titles I have listed are unfortunately out of print but are available from various online booksellers etc. I hope that this information will prove to be of use to interested parties. ( Primrosewoods ( talk) 14:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC))
How do I not see any mention of ketchup in this article? I eat pasties with my grandma from the U.P. (Michigan's Upper Peninsula) and it's practically unheard of to eat these things without ketchup! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sloth monkey ( talk • contribs) 07:38, 8 April 2014
They do shocking things to pastys in the states- the man v food episide featuring butte pastys had me speechless: they were upside down meat pies with chilli con carne and processed cheese dolloped on top! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.60.209.146 ( talk) 11:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Brears' comments on the origins of the pasty have been widely reported in reliable sources - [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], etc. Brears is a respected food historian with many publications - [6] - and is, for example, cited 10 times in the Oxford Companion to Food. So, his comments should be mentioned in this article. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 08:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
Just putting this heading up in case the IP who has been removing the term "national dish" wants to engage in any discussion. That's what numerous sources call it, and the term "nation" has many meanings. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 12:48, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
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I recently saw a printed ad for apple pie and pumpkin "pusties" from Caruso's bakery in Utica, NY. I'm from MI originally, where pasties (versus pusties) are well known meat pies of upstate tourism. In Wikipedia, "Pusty" redirects you to Pasticiotto (pastry), [1] while the Wikipedia Pasty article says, "Despite the modern pasty's strong association with Cornwall (U.K.), its exact origins are unclear." [2] I'm betting that the folks of Cornwall, England may have also used/modified the pasticiotti pastry for a meat pie versus a fruit pie (pusty). Abbreviating it as "pasti" would explain the name "pasties" (pronounced with a short A) that we've always known them by in Michigan--an even closer cognate than the "pusties" of Utica, NY. (There is also a plural form, "pasticiotti".) — Juliekadams ( talk) 23:23, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
References
In the picture at our Joan of Kent article, she’s holding what looks like a Cornish pasty. Is that what it is? Overlordnat1 ( talk) 23:36, 9 May 2023 (UTC)