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A fact from Palmire Dumont appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 17 July 2023 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
Did you know... that Palmire Dumont, a pioneer of LGBT nightlife in "Gay Paree", was among the first members of the French Bulldog-Owners Club (her dog pictured) and met other bulldog owners in her lesbian bar?
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
... that in Madame Palmyre's lesbian bar, her bulldog Bouboule (pictured), who did not like women, would sometimes urinate on the customers? Source: Mack 1989 p. 250: "Coquiot reports that Bouboule did not share his mistress's fondness for the society of women: the more Madame Palmyre tried to teach him to behave politely to her clients, the more obstinately savage Bouboule became. And if the women who frequented La Souris rashly persisted in fondling him against his will, he would manifest his displeasure by crawling under the table and, with infallible aim, drenching their exposed ankles."
[1]
ALT1: ... that Madame Palmyre was one of the first members of the French Bulldog-Owners Club (Palmyre's dog pictured) and met with other bulldog owners in her lesbian bar? Source: Haraway 2008
[2]: "One of the first members of the French bulldog owners club was Madame Palmyre, the proprietor of the club‘La Souris’ located in the lower reaches of Paris in the area of ‘Mont Martre’ and ‘Moulin Rouge: This was a gathering place for butchers, coachmen, rag traders, café owners, barrow boys, writers, painters, lesbians and hookers. Lesbian writers Renée Vivien and Natalie Clifford Barney and Colette, as well as modernist writers such as Catulle Mendes, Coppée, Henry Cantel, Albert Mérat and Léon Cladel gathered together with bulldogs at La Souris."
ALT2: ... that Palmire Dumont was a pioneer of LGBT nightlife in "Gay Paree"? Source: Choquette 2016
[3]: Palmyre Dumont [...] pioneered a business formula—the (homo)sexualized nocturnal restaurant and party bar—that would define “Gay Paree” in the interwar period and beyond.
Comment: This was first created by ABF992, and at the same time SusunW and Kusma wrote a draft (now in the history of the redirect
Palmire Louise Dumont). We then merged efforts. It would be great to see this on the Main Page during Pride Month! Additional hook suggestions welcome as usual. There are some sketches of Madamye Palmyre by
Henri Toulouse-Lautrec, who was a regular patron of her bar (this could also be used for hooks).
Wonderful stuff! I love seeing LGBT history written up this well on Wikipedia. Article was properly new at time of nomination, and easily long enough. Sourcing is thorough, wording is neutral and free from CV or close para. No other concerns about the article. As for hooks, all are sourced, so it's down to which is most interesting. I enjoy the silliness of ALT0, but I wonder if focusing on the dog doesn't overshadow the whole "pioneering lesbain bar owner" aspect. ALT2 is more straightforward about that, but less fun as a result. What if we combine ALT2 with a bit that plays on the source quote for ALT1, something about how her pioneering lesbian bar was known as a meeting place for XYZ classes of people you want to highlight and one ornery bulldog. Then you get the pioneering aspect but also get to be a bit more weird and hooky about it. (I'm deliberately not building the hook so I can review whatever y'all come up with). (Image is free by way of being old, and looks good at DYK size). ♠
PMC♠
(talk)08:57, 26 June 2023 (UTC)reply
ALT3: ... that Palmire Dumont, a pioneer of LGBT nightlife in "Gay Paree", was among the first members of the French Bulldog-Owners Club (her dog pictured) and met other bulldog owners in her lesbian bar?
I understand the concerns about putting too much focus on Bouboule. If Toulouse-Lautrec had made as nice pictures of Mme Palmyre as of Bouboule, this would not need a dog. (It is also easy to make hooks that focus too much on Toulouse-Lautrec). Do you think a simple combination as above, putting the "pioneer" first and talking about the dog later, works, or would you prefer further wordsmithing? —
Kusma (
talk)
09:27, 26 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks for picking it up. We appreciate you taking a look at it and look forward to collaborating with you to improve it.
SusunW (
talk)
12:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Feel free. We're a very cooperative group and have had no problems giving free reign to edit as we saw fit. Besides which, your changes are improvements, which is always a plus.
SusunW (
talk)
12:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The caption for the menu is overlong and has sentence fragments ended with periods. It might help to remove Stern and use Toulouse-Lautrec's last name only (as has been done for a while in the body and previous captions).
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Truth be told, I never heard it called that, until I was searching for an image to match her description. I live in a Spanish colonial city in Mexico and these balconies are everywhere in the old part of the city. Choquette calls it a Spanish balcony and immediately her description made me think of that. When I put in a search, to see if I could find an image, all the balconies that looked like this were in that category. Here we just call it a Spanish colonial balcony, so if we need to change the text, that isn't an issue.
SusunW (
talk)
13:13, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
It's a mystery. We have been unable to positively identify what work Choquette was referring to. As stated in the body, she said it might have been Dumont and the footnote says it sold in 2010. Kusma and I tried to find the sale. He found a potential sale, but we could not see any reference to Dumont in the Christie's blurb. I tried to verify what the descriptions were in the sources Christie's gave, but hit a brick wall. So I tried the
RX, which so far has yielded nada.
SusunW (
talk)
13:32, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Can we play it safe: remove the footnote, and change the body prose to something like "Other evidence that Toulouse-Lautrec and Dumont became acquainted early in her time in Paris comes from a portrait he made in 1892, which scholar Leslie Coquette writes may depict Dumont." ?
I think that would work (but I am happy to hear other opinions). We haven't been able to find any evidence behind Choquette's claim yet, and we can still add it back in once we get more from
WP:RX. (
This is my guess for the image; as you see, there is no information linking this to Dumont on the Christie's page. So we definitely can't add this image as the evidence is very flimsy). —
Kusma (
talk)
10:27, 29 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I think the main thing holding me back from a pass at this point is the need for an expanded lead.
MOS:LEAD suggests that a two or three paragraph lead would suit an article of this size. The current lead does a good job of summarizing her legacy. Expansion could help it cover her early life and career and maybe give a bit more detail on the bars.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
04:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I can say a few words but I am generally quite happy to let SusunW edit as she thinks best in this article; my contribution was mostly some fact checking, some source hunting and then working on merging Susun's draft and ABF992's article. Anyway, in my view the lead effectively covers what it needs to cover, at least briefly. I am not totally convinced by the sentence "Her life is an underpinning to understanding of the social history of the development of lesbian Montmartre"; I think this isn't quite stated in the body should rather be merged into the following sentence about her businesses. People (even Leslie Choquette) seem to be not really interested in her as an example of a lesbian in 1890s Paris, but really look at her as an entrepreneur and how she and her bars and restaurants helped shape the LGBT nightlife of the time. —
Kusma (
talk)
21:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I like the lead as well. I think Choquette's article, especially her introductory paragraphs, definitely focuses on Dumont as someone who "was important in the social history of the development of lesbian Montmartre", so perhaps we could tweak the existing sentence in lead to something like "her work as an entrepreneur was instrumental in the development of the social history of lesbian Montmartre" putting the focus more on her entrepreneurship and what it accomplished than her life 'as an example of a lesbian'
ABF992 (
talk)
04:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I have made two attempts to improve this (one closer to SusunW's version, one closer to ABF992's suggestion), see my last two edits to the article. Please tweak further. —
Kusma (
talk)
08:07, 6 July 2023 (UTC)reply
One page number was off, and one Choquette 2016 reference was actually supported by Choquette 2002. Can someone who's had their nose in the sources do a quick smell test for ones that seem off?
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
22:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Citation 5 (Stewart 1855, p. 128.) is used to support a definition for sous and a conversion to British pence. Is the conversion useful/accurate? Many readers will not find pence a useful comparison, and the conversion rate for 1855 may not match up with the time period covered in this article.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
22:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Personally, I find the comparison useful. We are talking about very small amounts of money and historical converters typically start with the major currency, i.e. Francs, Pounds Sterling, Dollars as opposed to sous, pence, pennies. If you look at
the chart on page 299 and text page 303, exchange rates were "relatively stable" to at least the 1870s.
SusunW (
talk)
19:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Our text says "She and Giguet were both discussed in the memoir Chez de Max (1918, At Max's) by Louis Delluc", which as far as I can tell is accurate. The book was clearly written by Delluc as per the
French Bibliothèque catalogue, but Choquette describes it as a memoir, which typically is autobiographical, and says "De Max recalled...in his memoir". I cannot find an open access copy of the book anywhere (looked on world cat, gallica, BFN, archive.org) so it is impossible to determine whether Delluc was actually writing a biographical account, interviewing de Max, or simply facilitating de Max in writing his own autobiography. Open to suggestions on how we avoid OR but remain true to what Choquette says.
SusunW (
talk)
19:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I suppose De Max have written his own memoir earlier, and Delluc may have written something like "De Max's memoir includes fond memories of the two." Hard to know for sure. I can't think of a way for Choquette to be accurate and our article language to be incorrect, so I'm fine with leaving it.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
04:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)reply
In §Death and legacy, "she helped propel Paris to a central position as a capital of entertainment" comes off a bit odd. As far as I know, Paris was already a capital of entertainment. The Choquette page cited focuses more on the establishment of Montmartre as a "raunchy entertainment capital".
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
17:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)reply
changed it to say "helped propel that area of Paris to hold a central position as a capital of gay entertainment"
SusunW (
talk)
17:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)reply
In §Assault incident and new management,"It has also been speculated that Palmyre paid the police protection money" is a bit unclear. Can we say "Choquette notes the possibility that Palmyre paid the police protection money"?
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
17:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Simon 1990 is not targeted by any citations. If it is only being used as a general reference, adding a "|ref=none" parameter will hide the Harv warning (most readers, and many editors, never see these errors anyway).
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The notes are labeled "Notes 1", etc., though "Note 1" would be preferable. This can be achieved by retitling the ref group name to "Note" in the #tags and the reflist template.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Probably a result of 3 different editors. I prefer yes, but I am not one to impose my preference on others, so if someone disagrees, please feel free to revert changes.
SusunW (
talk)
14:09, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I am not too well versed in French slang, but after looking at
fr:gouine and
wikt:gouine, I think equating the terms is appropriate. However, Choquette does not say that the terms were used to describe Dumont; she just thinks that the description in Davray's book (with Dumont as "Mme G.") hints at her being a lesbian because all those terms start with a G. My conclusion is we are better off without that footnote, so I have removed it. —
Kusma (
talk)
21:37, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
some weird coding thing on WP. If you put two ' around the title it should italicize the whole title, but apparently if you put the language template within the double ' (which I cannot type on this page as it overrides and makes everything in italics) it overrides whatever else is there? Don't ask me about coding, WP technology is insane. But, I think I fixed it.
SusunW (
talk)
18:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I am not a fan of one or two sentence paragraphs, but it's a personal preference and apparently a lot of WP editors like it. Added the break as per your suggestion.
SusunW (
talk)
18:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
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This article was created or improved during the
LGBTQ+ women edit-a-thon hosted by the Women in Red project in June 2023. The editor(s) involved may be new; please
assume good faith regarding their contributions before making changes.Women in RedWikipedia:WikiProject Women in RedTemplate:WikiProject Women in RedWomen in Red articles
This article was created or improved during
Wiki Loves Pride,
2023.Wiki Loves PrideWikipedia:Wiki Loves PrideTemplate:Wiki Loves Pride talkWiki Loves Pride articles
This article was created or improved during the Wildcard Edition GA edit-a-thon hosted by the Women in Green project in June 2023. The editor(s) involved may be new; please
assume good faith regarding their contributions before making changes.Women in GreenWikipedia:WikiProject Women in GreenTemplate:WikiProject Women in GreenWomen in Green articles
A fact from Palmire Dumont appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 17 July 2023 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
Did you know... that Palmire Dumont, a pioneer of LGBT nightlife in "Gay Paree", was among the first members of the French Bulldog-Owners Club (her dog pictured) and met other bulldog owners in her lesbian bar?
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
... that in Madame Palmyre's lesbian bar, her bulldog Bouboule (pictured), who did not like women, would sometimes urinate on the customers? Source: Mack 1989 p. 250: "Coquiot reports that Bouboule did not share his mistress's fondness for the society of women: the more Madame Palmyre tried to teach him to behave politely to her clients, the more obstinately savage Bouboule became. And if the women who frequented La Souris rashly persisted in fondling him against his will, he would manifest his displeasure by crawling under the table and, with infallible aim, drenching their exposed ankles."
[1]
ALT1: ... that Madame Palmyre was one of the first members of the French Bulldog-Owners Club (Palmyre's dog pictured) and met with other bulldog owners in her lesbian bar? Source: Haraway 2008
[2]: "One of the first members of the French bulldog owners club was Madame Palmyre, the proprietor of the club‘La Souris’ located in the lower reaches of Paris in the area of ‘Mont Martre’ and ‘Moulin Rouge: This was a gathering place for butchers, coachmen, rag traders, café owners, barrow boys, writers, painters, lesbians and hookers. Lesbian writers Renée Vivien and Natalie Clifford Barney and Colette, as well as modernist writers such as Catulle Mendes, Coppée, Henry Cantel, Albert Mérat and Léon Cladel gathered together with bulldogs at La Souris."
ALT2: ... that Palmire Dumont was a pioneer of LGBT nightlife in "Gay Paree"? Source: Choquette 2016
[3]: Palmyre Dumont [...] pioneered a business formula—the (homo)sexualized nocturnal restaurant and party bar—that would define “Gay Paree” in the interwar period and beyond.
Comment: This was first created by ABF992, and at the same time SusunW and Kusma wrote a draft (now in the history of the redirect
Palmire Louise Dumont). We then merged efforts. It would be great to see this on the Main Page during Pride Month! Additional hook suggestions welcome as usual. There are some sketches of Madamye Palmyre by
Henri Toulouse-Lautrec, who was a regular patron of her bar (this could also be used for hooks).
Wonderful stuff! I love seeing LGBT history written up this well on Wikipedia. Article was properly new at time of nomination, and easily long enough. Sourcing is thorough, wording is neutral and free from CV or close para. No other concerns about the article. As for hooks, all are sourced, so it's down to which is most interesting. I enjoy the silliness of ALT0, but I wonder if focusing on the dog doesn't overshadow the whole "pioneering lesbain bar owner" aspect. ALT2 is more straightforward about that, but less fun as a result. What if we combine ALT2 with a bit that plays on the source quote for ALT1, something about how her pioneering lesbian bar was known as a meeting place for XYZ classes of people you want to highlight and one ornery bulldog. Then you get the pioneering aspect but also get to be a bit more weird and hooky about it. (I'm deliberately not building the hook so I can review whatever y'all come up with). (Image is free by way of being old, and looks good at DYK size). ♠
PMC♠
(talk)08:57, 26 June 2023 (UTC)reply
ALT3: ... that Palmire Dumont, a pioneer of LGBT nightlife in "Gay Paree", was among the first members of the French Bulldog-Owners Club (her dog pictured) and met other bulldog owners in her lesbian bar?
I understand the concerns about putting too much focus on Bouboule. If Toulouse-Lautrec had made as nice pictures of Mme Palmyre as of Bouboule, this would not need a dog. (It is also easy to make hooks that focus too much on Toulouse-Lautrec). Do you think a simple combination as above, putting the "pioneer" first and talking about the dog later, works, or would you prefer further wordsmithing? —
Kusma (
talk)
09:27, 26 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Thanks for picking it up. We appreciate you taking a look at it and look forward to collaborating with you to improve it.
SusunW (
talk)
12:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Feel free. We're a very cooperative group and have had no problems giving free reign to edit as we saw fit. Besides which, your changes are improvements, which is always a plus.
SusunW (
talk)
12:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The caption for the menu is overlong and has sentence fragments ended with periods. It might help to remove Stern and use Toulouse-Lautrec's last name only (as has been done for a while in the body and previous captions).
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Truth be told, I never heard it called that, until I was searching for an image to match her description. I live in a Spanish colonial city in Mexico and these balconies are everywhere in the old part of the city. Choquette calls it a Spanish balcony and immediately her description made me think of that. When I put in a search, to see if I could find an image, all the balconies that looked like this were in that category. Here we just call it a Spanish colonial balcony, so if we need to change the text, that isn't an issue.
SusunW (
talk)
13:13, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
It's a mystery. We have been unable to positively identify what work Choquette was referring to. As stated in the body, she said it might have been Dumont and the footnote says it sold in 2010. Kusma and I tried to find the sale. He found a potential sale, but we could not see any reference to Dumont in the Christie's blurb. I tried to verify what the descriptions were in the sources Christie's gave, but hit a brick wall. So I tried the
RX, which so far has yielded nada.
SusunW (
talk)
13:32, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Can we play it safe: remove the footnote, and change the body prose to something like "Other evidence that Toulouse-Lautrec and Dumont became acquainted early in her time in Paris comes from a portrait he made in 1892, which scholar Leslie Coquette writes may depict Dumont." ?
I think that would work (but I am happy to hear other opinions). We haven't been able to find any evidence behind Choquette's claim yet, and we can still add it back in once we get more from
WP:RX. (
This is my guess for the image; as you see, there is no information linking this to Dumont on the Christie's page. So we definitely can't add this image as the evidence is very flimsy). —
Kusma (
talk)
10:27, 29 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I think the main thing holding me back from a pass at this point is the need for an expanded lead.
MOS:LEAD suggests that a two or three paragraph lead would suit an article of this size. The current lead does a good job of summarizing her legacy. Expansion could help it cover her early life and career and maybe give a bit more detail on the bars.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
04:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I can say a few words but I am generally quite happy to let SusunW edit as she thinks best in this article; my contribution was mostly some fact checking, some source hunting and then working on merging Susun's draft and ABF992's article. Anyway, in my view the lead effectively covers what it needs to cover, at least briefly. I am not totally convinced by the sentence "Her life is an underpinning to understanding of the social history of the development of lesbian Montmartre"; I think this isn't quite stated in the body should rather be merged into the following sentence about her businesses. People (even Leslie Choquette) seem to be not really interested in her as an example of a lesbian in 1890s Paris, but really look at her as an entrepreneur and how she and her bars and restaurants helped shape the LGBT nightlife of the time. —
Kusma (
talk)
21:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I like the lead as well. I think Choquette's article, especially her introductory paragraphs, definitely focuses on Dumont as someone who "was important in the social history of the development of lesbian Montmartre", so perhaps we could tweak the existing sentence in lead to something like "her work as an entrepreneur was instrumental in the development of the social history of lesbian Montmartre" putting the focus more on her entrepreneurship and what it accomplished than her life 'as an example of a lesbian'
ABF992 (
talk)
04:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I have made two attempts to improve this (one closer to SusunW's version, one closer to ABF992's suggestion), see my last two edits to the article. Please tweak further. —
Kusma (
talk)
08:07, 6 July 2023 (UTC)reply
One page number was off, and one Choquette 2016 reference was actually supported by Choquette 2002. Can someone who's had their nose in the sources do a quick smell test for ones that seem off?
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
22:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Citation 5 (Stewart 1855, p. 128.) is used to support a definition for sous and a conversion to British pence. Is the conversion useful/accurate? Many readers will not find pence a useful comparison, and the conversion rate for 1855 may not match up with the time period covered in this article.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
22:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Personally, I find the comparison useful. We are talking about very small amounts of money and historical converters typically start with the major currency, i.e. Francs, Pounds Sterling, Dollars as opposed to sous, pence, pennies. If you look at
the chart on page 299 and text page 303, exchange rates were "relatively stable" to at least the 1870s.
SusunW (
talk)
19:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Our text says "She and Giguet were both discussed in the memoir Chez de Max (1918, At Max's) by Louis Delluc", which as far as I can tell is accurate. The book was clearly written by Delluc as per the
French Bibliothèque catalogue, but Choquette describes it as a memoir, which typically is autobiographical, and says "De Max recalled...in his memoir". I cannot find an open access copy of the book anywhere (looked on world cat, gallica, BFN, archive.org) so it is impossible to determine whether Delluc was actually writing a biographical account, interviewing de Max, or simply facilitating de Max in writing his own autobiography. Open to suggestions on how we avoid OR but remain true to what Choquette says.
SusunW (
talk)
19:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I suppose De Max have written his own memoir earlier, and Delluc may have written something like "De Max's memoir includes fond memories of the two." Hard to know for sure. I can't think of a way for Choquette to be accurate and our article language to be incorrect, so I'm fine with leaving it.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
04:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)reply
In §Death and legacy, "she helped propel Paris to a central position as a capital of entertainment" comes off a bit odd. As far as I know, Paris was already a capital of entertainment. The Choquette page cited focuses more on the establishment of Montmartre as a "raunchy entertainment capital".
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
17:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)reply
changed it to say "helped propel that area of Paris to hold a central position as a capital of gay entertainment"
SusunW (
talk)
17:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)reply
In §Assault incident and new management,"It has also been speculated that Palmyre paid the police protection money" is a bit unclear. Can we say "Choquette notes the possibility that Palmyre paid the police protection money"?
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
17:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Simon 1990 is not targeted by any citations. If it is only being used as a general reference, adding a "|ref=none" parameter will hide the Harv warning (most readers, and many editors, never see these errors anyway).
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The notes are labeled "Notes 1", etc., though "Note 1" would be preferable. This can be achieved by retitling the ref group name to "Note" in the #tags and the reflist template.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
04:21, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Probably a result of 3 different editors. I prefer yes, but I am not one to impose my preference on others, so if someone disagrees, please feel free to revert changes.
SusunW (
talk)
14:09, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I am not too well versed in French slang, but after looking at
fr:gouine and
wikt:gouine, I think equating the terms is appropriate. However, Choquette does not say that the terms were used to describe Dumont; she just thinks that the description in Davray's book (with Dumont as "Mme G.") hints at her being a lesbian because all those terms start with a G. My conclusion is we are better off without that footnote, so I have removed it. —
Kusma (
talk)
21:37, 28 June 2023 (UTC)reply
some weird coding thing on WP. If you put two ' around the title it should italicize the whole title, but apparently if you put the language template within the double ' (which I cannot type on this page as it overrides and makes everything in italics) it overrides whatever else is there? Don't ask me about coding, WP technology is insane. But, I think I fixed it.
SusunW (
talk)
18:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)reply
I am not a fan of one or two sentence paragraphs, but it's a personal preference and apparently a lot of WP editors like it. Added the break as per your suggestion.
SusunW (
talk)
18:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)reply