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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
Hello. I have attempted to add the words "called Judea and Samaria by Israel" at the start of this article. In truth, even the title "Palestinian territories" biases the article, since Israel has long been on record that it has valid (if negotiable) claims on the territories. But at minimum, the article should include the terminology by which Israel calls these areas. Comments, please? Thanks Avigoldstein ( talk) 19:46, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you, Sol and Harlan, for your input and these references. I see now that Judea and Samaria will not fly as terms in this article. But I wish to put the title of the article up for discussion. The expression "Palestinian territories" presumes that the West Bank belongs to the Palestinian Arabs. The title therefore does express a POV. The equivalent opposing term would be "liberated territories," which would presuppose that the West Bank belongs to Israel. How about a more neutral term such as "disputed territories" or "administered territories"? Avigoldstein ( talk) 00:14, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I do see this; however, the title of an article carries enormous weight. The NPOV would be that these are disputed areas; the fact that the UN considers the territories "Palestinian" does no more than demonstrate the bias of the UN. Avigoldstein ( talk) 03:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Then why not title the article "West Bank and Gaza," terms that clearly define the territories being discussed, terms that are recognized by readers, yet terms that demonstrate much less bias than "Palestinian territories"? Avigoldstein ( talk) 16:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Nothing was "taken" by Jewish forces. The U.N. voted to divide the British Mandate into two states. Israel would be the state of the Jewish people, in a small sliver of their ancestral homeland. The other state (I don't know what it's name would have been) would have been the state of the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine. But the Arabs turned down this division and instead invaded the nascent state of Israel. If you wish to challenge the legitimacy of Israel (something that even the Palestinian Authority and the PLO claim to have accepted), you should also challenge the legitimacy of Jordan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia, all of whom are basically carved-out states rewarded to influential Arab families. Avigoldstein ( talk) 17:58, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Uncivil side discussion
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I think you are supposed to be commenting on the content, not on the character. Regardless, I have read many books, from many sides of the conflict. If you wish to join those who question the right of Jews to a state in their ancestral homeland (a land in which, despite attempts to expel us, we have lived uninterrupted for thousands of years), then I think that puts you beyond the pale of those who engage in reasoned discussion. Perhaps the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions page would be a good home for your view. Avigoldstein ( talk) 19:10, 24 October 2010 (UTC) Avigoldstein ( talk) 04:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC) |
Malik, yes, there are such articles, and the article titled West Bank is actually pretty good. And the present article is not bad. I wonder whether they should be merged, since there is considerable overlapping. Please excuse me if I miss some things that are obvious to you; I am very new at Wikipedia! Avigoldstein ( talk) 17:58, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm opening this discussion section per WP:EDSUM and this diff. I've added link for the online document, per SD request. Request quotation is used to request a direct quote from the cited source, to be provided on the discussion page so that it may be verified that the source can verify the statement or has been interpreted correctly. This is particularly helpful for sources that are not available online or are difficult to obtain in order to check the editor's interpretation. I guess SD request was reasonable, when link was missing. Do we need RQ now? AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 19:02, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Agada (im tirtzu, ein zu...), please indulge me here, since I am new at this. What is a diff? I understood an edit war to refer to someone consistently trying to change something and someone else undoing it. Here I added a sourced sentence over three days ago. No one has disputed this line (and indeed it is a fact, with other sources to back it up). So I am not sure why this might constitute an edit war. Avigoldstein ( talk) 00:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Fred Gottheil was the source of the statistics used in the highly discredited book From Time Immemorial. Far from being a scholarly point of view among others, it is a fringe view that is not accepted by the great majority of scholars. Bacchi was the first Official Statistician (or similar title) of the state of Israel, so was hardly biased against an Israeli perspective. McCarthy is one of the leading demographers of the Ottoman region. If Gottheil is cited, then others more eminent than him must be cited as well and the conclusions of the many official enquiries of the mandate period, all of which state explicitly that the Arab increase was overwhelmingly natural, should be cited too. Zero talk 05:37, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Comment: I have nothing new to add on the text, but want to thank everyone for combining reasonableness with a search for facts. Avi, four things for you as a newcomer: (1) this is what Wikipedia at its best looks like, where we learn things and potentially improve articles without too much hostility; (2) adding a source which doesn't seem to say what it's summary sentence says will often got checked out and changed, especially in controversial areas like Israel/Palestine; (3) when there is such a discrepancy, everyone's level of annoyance and skepticism rises, so it's best to fully read through sources you use, describe their opinion in full, and write for both sides in one's description; (4) as was the case here, many side issues to one article are the subject of another article (like Demographics of Palestine), so prioritize linking to an existing discussion, which may have been worked through to make it more NPOV-- Carwil ( talk) 11:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC).
Carwil, thanks for your input; yes, as a newcomer I am finding Wikipedia a bit cumbersome. As for sourcing, whereas one of the sources quoted is the radical Noam Chomsky, who never lets facts get in the way of his anti-Israel opinions, for me to quote a source that I did read thoroughly and seems to confirm what I wrote seems reasonable. Re From Time Immemorial, contrary to what is written above, the book is most certainly not discredited. Written in the early eighties by journalist Joan Peters, it set out to prove how Jews had usurped Arabs in Palestine. What Peters found was the opposite, that a large number of the Arab population came to Palestine in the wake of the Jewish immigrations of the late 18th and early 19th century. After initial raves (including a NYTimes Book Review piece), the book was subjected to a bombardment of politically motivated attacks. While there may be parts of the book that are not well done (yes, it is a laborious read!), Peters' underlying thesis has never been successfully challenged. I would be quite comfortable quoting her instead of the citation I gave, except that the one I gave is online and easily verifiable while I don't think hers is. I highly recommend From Time Immemorial. Avigoldstein ( talk) 17:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Carwil, I read the book some time ago, and yes, I believe that it is a reliable source, at least on this point. And keep in mind, Peters actually started from the other point of view! Just to clarify, and again, I am grateful for this discussion, which has been very helpful for a newcomer, there is nothing wrong with Arabs having immigrated to Mandatory Palestine. Israel guarantees rights for the Arab minority, as stated in the Declaration of Independence and in many subsequent statements. What is wrong is that those who are anti-Israel have tried to claim that the Arabs, especially those who left in the wake of the 1948 War of Independence, were there for centuries, making the Jews usurpers. While I don't agree that this would make the Jews usurpers, for many reasons, Peters proved that even the premise was inaccurate. Hey, can anyone explain this thing about the four tildes? I don't even have a tilde on my keyboard. I have to copy and paste! Avigoldstein ( talk) 18:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Yehoshua Porath is a founder of the radical Peace Now movement. I would hardly count him among unbiased reporters. Please keep in mind that the Arab migrations (which it appears you acknowledge took place) may have come from other regions of Mandatory Palestine, including the seventy-eight percent of Palestine today known as Jordan. The specific focus here is Arab migration to areas within the June 4, 1967, boundaries or at least within the June 10, 1967, boundaries, from areas outside those boundaries. I don't see, Carwil, you denying that those movements took place. Avigoldstein ( talk) 19:36, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Wrong, Nab, the Balfour Declaration included ALL of Mandatory Palestine, which was treated as one entity. This is clearly indicated in the White Paper report of 1922, which split off Transjordan from the rest of Palestine regarding the proposed homeland for the Jewish people. See http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_transjordan.php. A quote from there: "The 1922 White Paper (also called the Churchill White Paper) was the first official manifesto interpreting the Balfour Declaration. It was issued on June 3, 1922, after investigation of the 1921 disturbances. Although the White Paper stated that the Balfour Declaration could not be amended and that the Jews were in Palestine by right, it partitioned the area of the Mandate by excluding the area east of the Jordan River from Jewish settlement. That land, 76% of the original Palestine Mandate land, was renamed Transjordan and was given to the Emir Abdullah by the British." Avigoldstein ( talk) 21:27, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Nab, could you explain this revert, please? Basically we're here to discuss before editing. Please try not to disrupt the careful consensus building process. There were number of options considered. For instance we could wiki link the already mentioned debate in another article, alternatively we can add a fair attribution and brining opposing opinions, per WP:SUMMARIZE. Removing the external immigration claim completely is also an option, it is not that important, it is relatively a minor issue comparing to the large topic of this article. I have not seen an RSN request raised though. I guess question of balance and symmetry are also still open. Feel free to contribute. AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 20:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Agada, does Nab have th::e right to simply remove an edit he does not like? I sourced my comment; I can source my comment as well with quotes from From Time Immemorial. Wikipedia guidelines seem to be met here. If we wish to edit out sources we don't like, how about starting with the radical linguist (that is his expertise, not politics) Noam Chomsky? Avigoldstein ( talk) 21:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
To clarify: I need to know the rules for how to proceed. Can someone just remove edits they don't like? Is there a hierarchy among Wikipedia users that permits some contributors to decide what they like or don't like? Nab, besides resorting to what amounts to street language in his comments, has decided to delete my comment. How do I proceed to restore my edit? thanks. Avigoldstein ( talk) 21:45, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Carwil, I think I could live with your edit, especially if it links to the Demographics of Palestine wiki, where the controversy is aired out. Avigoldstein ( talk) 22:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, guys, but let's hold on a minute. If you read the FTM wiki, you will find that the book most certainly was not discredited. If one reads the FTM wiki, one finds that among its sources (perhaps the primary source) is an article in CounterPunch, which states that "a number of scholars" condemned the book. Yet he fails to cite these scholars, except for one, the anti-Zionist Norman Finkelstein. Who are these eminent scholars? Does he mean the post-Zionist Avi Shlaim? Or Robert Olson, whose credentials in this area I have been unable to determine? Or Yehoshua Porath, who at least at the time was prominent in Peace Now (this does not discredit him, but it does establish his POV). How about Barbara Tuchman, a truly eminent historian who supported Peters? Or Ted White? Or Alan Dershowitz? To say that FTM is discredited and then to repeat the statement as common knowledge does not make the statement true. So I continue to maintain, Nab, that FTM is a credible source. And so is Uriel Schmelz, who long ago chronicled the Arab migration into Palestine. Avigoldstein ( talk) 00:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Sol, Cockburn is, and Said was, radically anti-Zionist and anti-Israel. Yet if one wants to question FTI, that is fine. But to simply discredit based on specious sources is untenable. Avigoldstein ( talk) 01:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Sol, you are just repeating yourself; and no matter how often you say it, repetition does not make something true. Avigoldstein ( talk) 03:21, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Anyway, I do favor compromise wording that gives voice to both sides of the debate, linking to the Demographics of Palestine wiki. Should I try a more concise wording than above suggestion? Will be happy to, but exhausted and not feeling well and could probably do so tomorrow. Avigoldstein ( talk) 03:30, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
How does this sound? "A body of opinion maintains that significant Arab immigration into Palestine accompanied the influx of Jews. The matter is not settled, with other scholars insisting that the Arab population increase is mostly attributable to natural increase." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine for a detailed discussion. Avigoldstein ( talk) 03:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
First, Nableezy continues to repeat the line that "reliable sources" call this a fraud, yet almost every source yet produced by those who disagree with me is far from reliable and certainly not peer-reviewed. I thought we had put this part to rest, but I guess not. Second, no one disputes that there was an Arab majority in large parts of Mandatory Palestine for a considerable period. Moreover, it is not my intention to imply that "these are all just Arabs from other places." Neither do I think that Arabs had no right to move into Palestine (if indeed they did).The issue here is whether the sentences describing Jewish immigration lend the impression that the Jews are interlopers when there may have been a significant consequent Arab immigration. I think this is a legitimate concern of mine. I thought we were moving to consensus; looks like Nableezy is not yet part of that consensus. Perhaps we can have input from the other interested parties. Avigoldstein ( talk) 05:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Carwil, I can live with your phrasing with a link to Demographics. What do the rest of you think? (I wonder, as an aside, what Tessler means by "born outside the country." The terminology seems anachronistic, since there technically was a Mandate, not a country. And does he include the three-quarters of Palestine that had been chopped off the promised Jewish national home in 1922 and made into Jordan as part of the country or outside the country?) At any rate, sounds good, Carwil. Avigoldstein ( talk) 13:55, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Agada, looks like more credit to Carwil for creating this formulation. Very interesting process here, as we seek to present verifiable information and avoid ... um... urban legends. Avigoldstein ( talk) 15:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
I believe the infobox on Palestinian National Authority should be moved to this page, but would like to prompt discussion on the matter on its page, first, so feel free to head over there and voice your thoughts. ~ Araignee ( talk • contribs) 18:09, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
The map currently featured at the top of this page ('West Bank & Gaza Map 2007 (Settlements).png') inaccurately represents the extent of the area controlled by the Palestinian National Authority. Areas under PNA control in the West Bank are significantly exaggerated on the map, as is apparent from reviewing the source materials listed on the map file's own info page. I suggest that the green areas on the map be changed to more accurately represent the extent of Areas A and B, or be replaced with a map that does so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evzob ( talk • contribs) 07:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm done. I was looking for a non-biased, non-partisan article. Guess I'll keep looking. The load of shit I found here reads more like something published by the PNA Public Relations Office.-- 72.47.85.22 ( talk) 03:54, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Is there a reason that East Jerusalem is excluded from this article in the definition and maps of the Palestinian Territories? 97.91.176.159 ( talk) 20:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Someone should add information because it is missing from the article but very relevant. Specifically, page 8: http://www.iasps.org/policystudies/ps49.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.77.156.152 ( talk) 02:27, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
The phrase "Under Israeli Occupation Since 1967" as part of the title of the map is not accurate. Being it a subjective statement, it should not be included in such map and in Wikipedia. Israeli forces withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 1994 [ref: http://www.actforpeace.org.au/What_We_Do/Where_We_Work/Middle_East/Israel_Palestine/Israel_Palestine_Timeline.aspx] and in 2005 from most areas of the West Bank. In spite of later sporadic and brief Israeli incursions into part of those territories as a response to Palestinian rocket bombardment of Israel, etc., those territories are actually under Palestinian control. Analogously for example, any blockade of American trade, flow of goods and sanctions we have against Cuba do not mean that we are occupying Cuba. (If Havana were to retaliate against the US by launching missiles into Florida, I would not be surprised if we punished Cuba severely.) If there are settlements and areas that are occupied by Israel, they can be specifically demarcated on the map, and the phrase in question could be used to qualify those specific areas only (for example, like Guantanamo is demarcated on a map of Cuba.) Therefore I request that the phrase in question be deleted from the title on the map, or the map itself be replaced with an updated one. 98.217.147.183 ( talk) 18:49, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
I think you are confused by saying "These are the territories of "Palestine" in which the Palestinians define as their own state and the majority of the recogni...", because this article is defined as geographic, while for the State of Palestine and the Palestinian National Authority you can find separate articles. By putting "country" template you are just hurting the reader's comprehension. Let's clarify:
Can we be clear on this? Greyshark09 ( talk) 21:01, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, Puerto Rico is the name of a Commonwealth, as well as "territory" (island). It is not the case for "Palestinian territories" - an area only theoretically identified with the State of Palestine, but actually controlled by three parties - Israel, PNA and Hamas-led government of Gaza. Claiming Palestinian Territories is a "state" you practically denounce the "State of Palestine", as the name of the entity. I bet you didn't mean to... Greyshark09 ( talk) 18:33, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
[4] "'Against whom could we demonstrate in the Gaza Strip? When Gaza was occupied, that model was applicable,' Zahar said." Retrieved from Ma'an News Agency, January 5, 2012
This statement was deleted from the article, on the premise that Zahar also said "since we are resisting occupation, we should use all means including armed resistance." But the full paragraph in which he says that is:
"We can't use the same means seen in Egypt, Syria, and Tunisia because they are inappropriate in the West Bank. Egypt got rid of the British occupation with arms, and since we are resisting occupation, we should use all means including armed resistance."
He is saying that the West Bank is occupied, not Gaza. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 15:08, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Which part of this edit that you reverted do you have a problem with? Thanks.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 19:05, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Currently, the first sentence does not say what "Palestinian territores" actually are. It just mention the historical fact that they're "part of the area predestined by the United Nations to become the territory of the future arabic/Palestinian state". While that certainly is an important fact which is approprate to include in the lead, I don't think it should be the first sentence the reader sees. The first sentence should say what the article topic actually is about.-- Frederico1234 ( talk) 15:05, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Please state who makes which claims about terms such as "occupied", rather than simply asserting that the "international community" claims this. There is no way to gauge what the "international community" believes because countries do not speak with one voice and there is no world government to speak for them. Also, please be careful using citations that refer to the "Occupied Territories" as proof that a particular organization has a particular view. An organization like the EU is very big; if some press releases (perhaps only a few, cherry-picked) say "Occupied Terroritories" and some (perhaps a lot more) say "West Bank", does that "prove" that the EU has a particular view as a whole, or simply that whoever wrote the cherry-picked press release uses this term? Furthermore, if an EU press release says "Occupied" in reference to Gaza pre-2005, that is NOT in any way relevant to the situation post-2005.
In short: Because this issue is so controversial, please hew closely to the undisputed facts. A claim that the EU has a particular view should be sourced to an EU statement asserting such a view, not simply a passing reference. A couple references by random NGO's is hardly evidence of the "international community"; I'm sure plenty of other NGO's have opposite views. Benwing ( talk) 21:39, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
I deleted the following:
The reason is that nearly all the links refer to pre-2005 (i.e. when Israel exited Gaza), and most are dead. As a result they are highly unlikely to be relevant today. I seriously doubt very many US government officials will claim that Gaza is occupied by Israel. The sole reference is to a CNN article with a claim to "some US government web sites" without identifying which ones. See my comment above about distinguishing official policy with occasional references. Benwing ( talk) 21:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Palestine officially declared statehood in the 80's. Only hostile countries refer to them as territories and not a state. This needs to be changed. 24.207.129.95 ( talk) 14:56, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi,
I would like that who ever support the term "occupied" for those territories, will answer the legal claims of the Israeli goverment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGYxLWUKwWo
otherwise, it shouldn't be names as "occupied" but "controversial".
Wikipedia shouldn't decide by political intrests, but only a true justice. Exx8 ( talk) 23:29, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
The infobox of the Palestinian Authority should not be used here as copy-paste - this is just confusing. This article is about geography and history of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, not the geopolitical entitities, currently existing there (PNA and Hamas Administration). "Palestinian territories" don't have President and government and a representative in the UN - this is the Palestinian Authority. In addition, oPt term had been largely in use before 1993, when the PA was established. Greyshark09 ( talk) 06:43, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
User @Emmette Hernandez Coleman, i herewith assume WP:GF and kindly ask you to return the infobox to its original structure prior your edit a few days ago [27], in accordance with editors' consensus from December 2011 [28].If a new consensus is reached then you would be able to change the infobox contents. Greyshark09 ( talk) 11:12, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Greyshark, this is nonsense. I'm not denying that the PA will be discussed by RS. The point is that it is not used to describe the same thing as the Palestinian Territories. Comparing google hits for two terms that describe different things makes no sense at all. Dlv999 ( talk) 11:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
@Dlv, I'm speaking only of WP:RS, but i also would like you to see the whole picture per WP:COMMONNAME. Let's try this simplified - The President of PNA (geopolitical entity) came to the UN last year and asked that the UN will recognize PNA rights over Pt (geographic area) and the PNA (current geopolitical entity) will become promoted to be the State of Palestine (currently not existent). In case UN does so and promotes PNA status from autonomy to statehood, then parts of Palestinian territories (their status now being disputed), which are not under actual control of the State of Palestine will be defined as Palestinian state territories occupied by Israel (a.k.a Judea and Samaria area) and Hamas (Gaza administration). And please don't base yourself too much on journalist reviews - this is improper. And if speaking of BBC - see this map [38]. Here are some sources treating PNA as an entity:
In any case, if so many people don't see PNA as an entity, i guess its Palestinian cause is lost - occupied forever. Greyshark09 ( talk) 16:44, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't think there's a real problem with including the flag in the infobox, since that's been a general broad "movement" symbol for more than 40 years. However, including a coat of arms is a different question, since each such emblem is associated with one specific political grouping, and not with the "Palestinian territories" in general... AnonMoos ( talk) 17:59, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
Hello. I have attempted to add the words "called Judea and Samaria by Israel" at the start of this article. In truth, even the title "Palestinian territories" biases the article, since Israel has long been on record that it has valid (if negotiable) claims on the territories. But at minimum, the article should include the terminology by which Israel calls these areas. Comments, please? Thanks Avigoldstein ( talk) 19:46, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you, Sol and Harlan, for your input and these references. I see now that Judea and Samaria will not fly as terms in this article. But I wish to put the title of the article up for discussion. The expression "Palestinian territories" presumes that the West Bank belongs to the Palestinian Arabs. The title therefore does express a POV. The equivalent opposing term would be "liberated territories," which would presuppose that the West Bank belongs to Israel. How about a more neutral term such as "disputed territories" or "administered territories"? Avigoldstein ( talk) 00:14, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I do see this; however, the title of an article carries enormous weight. The NPOV would be that these are disputed areas; the fact that the UN considers the territories "Palestinian" does no more than demonstrate the bias of the UN. Avigoldstein ( talk) 03:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Then why not title the article "West Bank and Gaza," terms that clearly define the territories being discussed, terms that are recognized by readers, yet terms that demonstrate much less bias than "Palestinian territories"? Avigoldstein ( talk) 16:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Nothing was "taken" by Jewish forces. The U.N. voted to divide the British Mandate into two states. Israel would be the state of the Jewish people, in a small sliver of their ancestral homeland. The other state (I don't know what it's name would have been) would have been the state of the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine. But the Arabs turned down this division and instead invaded the nascent state of Israel. If you wish to challenge the legitimacy of Israel (something that even the Palestinian Authority and the PLO claim to have accepted), you should also challenge the legitimacy of Jordan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia, all of whom are basically carved-out states rewarded to influential Arab families. Avigoldstein ( talk) 17:58, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Uncivil side discussion
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I think you are supposed to be commenting on the content, not on the character. Regardless, I have read many books, from many sides of the conflict. If you wish to join those who question the right of Jews to a state in their ancestral homeland (a land in which, despite attempts to expel us, we have lived uninterrupted for thousands of years), then I think that puts you beyond the pale of those who engage in reasoned discussion. Perhaps the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions page would be a good home for your view. Avigoldstein ( talk) 19:10, 24 October 2010 (UTC) Avigoldstein ( talk) 04:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC) |
Malik, yes, there are such articles, and the article titled West Bank is actually pretty good. And the present article is not bad. I wonder whether they should be merged, since there is considerable overlapping. Please excuse me if I miss some things that are obvious to you; I am very new at Wikipedia! Avigoldstein ( talk) 17:58, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm opening this discussion section per WP:EDSUM and this diff. I've added link for the online document, per SD request. Request quotation is used to request a direct quote from the cited source, to be provided on the discussion page so that it may be verified that the source can verify the statement or has been interpreted correctly. This is particularly helpful for sources that are not available online or are difficult to obtain in order to check the editor's interpretation. I guess SD request was reasonable, when link was missing. Do we need RQ now? AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 19:02, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Agada (im tirtzu, ein zu...), please indulge me here, since I am new at this. What is a diff? I understood an edit war to refer to someone consistently trying to change something and someone else undoing it. Here I added a sourced sentence over three days ago. No one has disputed this line (and indeed it is a fact, with other sources to back it up). So I am not sure why this might constitute an edit war. Avigoldstein ( talk) 00:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Fred Gottheil was the source of the statistics used in the highly discredited book From Time Immemorial. Far from being a scholarly point of view among others, it is a fringe view that is not accepted by the great majority of scholars. Bacchi was the first Official Statistician (or similar title) of the state of Israel, so was hardly biased against an Israeli perspective. McCarthy is one of the leading demographers of the Ottoman region. If Gottheil is cited, then others more eminent than him must be cited as well and the conclusions of the many official enquiries of the mandate period, all of which state explicitly that the Arab increase was overwhelmingly natural, should be cited too. Zero talk 05:37, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Comment: I have nothing new to add on the text, but want to thank everyone for combining reasonableness with a search for facts. Avi, four things for you as a newcomer: (1) this is what Wikipedia at its best looks like, where we learn things and potentially improve articles without too much hostility; (2) adding a source which doesn't seem to say what it's summary sentence says will often got checked out and changed, especially in controversial areas like Israel/Palestine; (3) when there is such a discrepancy, everyone's level of annoyance and skepticism rises, so it's best to fully read through sources you use, describe their opinion in full, and write for both sides in one's description; (4) as was the case here, many side issues to one article are the subject of another article (like Demographics of Palestine), so prioritize linking to an existing discussion, which may have been worked through to make it more NPOV-- Carwil ( talk) 11:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC).
Carwil, thanks for your input; yes, as a newcomer I am finding Wikipedia a bit cumbersome. As for sourcing, whereas one of the sources quoted is the radical Noam Chomsky, who never lets facts get in the way of his anti-Israel opinions, for me to quote a source that I did read thoroughly and seems to confirm what I wrote seems reasonable. Re From Time Immemorial, contrary to what is written above, the book is most certainly not discredited. Written in the early eighties by journalist Joan Peters, it set out to prove how Jews had usurped Arabs in Palestine. What Peters found was the opposite, that a large number of the Arab population came to Palestine in the wake of the Jewish immigrations of the late 18th and early 19th century. After initial raves (including a NYTimes Book Review piece), the book was subjected to a bombardment of politically motivated attacks. While there may be parts of the book that are not well done (yes, it is a laborious read!), Peters' underlying thesis has never been successfully challenged. I would be quite comfortable quoting her instead of the citation I gave, except that the one I gave is online and easily verifiable while I don't think hers is. I highly recommend From Time Immemorial. Avigoldstein ( talk) 17:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Carwil, I read the book some time ago, and yes, I believe that it is a reliable source, at least on this point. And keep in mind, Peters actually started from the other point of view! Just to clarify, and again, I am grateful for this discussion, which has been very helpful for a newcomer, there is nothing wrong with Arabs having immigrated to Mandatory Palestine. Israel guarantees rights for the Arab minority, as stated in the Declaration of Independence and in many subsequent statements. What is wrong is that those who are anti-Israel have tried to claim that the Arabs, especially those who left in the wake of the 1948 War of Independence, were there for centuries, making the Jews usurpers. While I don't agree that this would make the Jews usurpers, for many reasons, Peters proved that even the premise was inaccurate. Hey, can anyone explain this thing about the four tildes? I don't even have a tilde on my keyboard. I have to copy and paste! Avigoldstein ( talk) 18:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Yehoshua Porath is a founder of the radical Peace Now movement. I would hardly count him among unbiased reporters. Please keep in mind that the Arab migrations (which it appears you acknowledge took place) may have come from other regions of Mandatory Palestine, including the seventy-eight percent of Palestine today known as Jordan. The specific focus here is Arab migration to areas within the June 4, 1967, boundaries or at least within the June 10, 1967, boundaries, from areas outside those boundaries. I don't see, Carwil, you denying that those movements took place. Avigoldstein ( talk) 19:36, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Wrong, Nab, the Balfour Declaration included ALL of Mandatory Palestine, which was treated as one entity. This is clearly indicated in the White Paper report of 1922, which split off Transjordan from the rest of Palestine regarding the proposed homeland for the Jewish people. See http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_transjordan.php. A quote from there: "The 1922 White Paper (also called the Churchill White Paper) was the first official manifesto interpreting the Balfour Declaration. It was issued on June 3, 1922, after investigation of the 1921 disturbances. Although the White Paper stated that the Balfour Declaration could not be amended and that the Jews were in Palestine by right, it partitioned the area of the Mandate by excluding the area east of the Jordan River from Jewish settlement. That land, 76% of the original Palestine Mandate land, was renamed Transjordan and was given to the Emir Abdullah by the British." Avigoldstein ( talk) 21:27, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Nab, could you explain this revert, please? Basically we're here to discuss before editing. Please try not to disrupt the careful consensus building process. There were number of options considered. For instance we could wiki link the already mentioned debate in another article, alternatively we can add a fair attribution and brining opposing opinions, per WP:SUMMARIZE. Removing the external immigration claim completely is also an option, it is not that important, it is relatively a minor issue comparing to the large topic of this article. I have not seen an RSN request raised though. I guess question of balance and symmetry are also still open. Feel free to contribute. AgadaUrbanit ( talk) 20:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Agada, does Nab have th::e right to simply remove an edit he does not like? I sourced my comment; I can source my comment as well with quotes from From Time Immemorial. Wikipedia guidelines seem to be met here. If we wish to edit out sources we don't like, how about starting with the radical linguist (that is his expertise, not politics) Noam Chomsky? Avigoldstein ( talk) 21:20, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
To clarify: I need to know the rules for how to proceed. Can someone just remove edits they don't like? Is there a hierarchy among Wikipedia users that permits some contributors to decide what they like or don't like? Nab, besides resorting to what amounts to street language in his comments, has decided to delete my comment. How do I proceed to restore my edit? thanks. Avigoldstein ( talk) 21:45, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Carwil, I think I could live with your edit, especially if it links to the Demographics of Palestine wiki, where the controversy is aired out. Avigoldstein ( talk) 22:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, guys, but let's hold on a minute. If you read the FTM wiki, you will find that the book most certainly was not discredited. If one reads the FTM wiki, one finds that among its sources (perhaps the primary source) is an article in CounterPunch, which states that "a number of scholars" condemned the book. Yet he fails to cite these scholars, except for one, the anti-Zionist Norman Finkelstein. Who are these eminent scholars? Does he mean the post-Zionist Avi Shlaim? Or Robert Olson, whose credentials in this area I have been unable to determine? Or Yehoshua Porath, who at least at the time was prominent in Peace Now (this does not discredit him, but it does establish his POV). How about Barbara Tuchman, a truly eminent historian who supported Peters? Or Ted White? Or Alan Dershowitz? To say that FTM is discredited and then to repeat the statement as common knowledge does not make the statement true. So I continue to maintain, Nab, that FTM is a credible source. And so is Uriel Schmelz, who long ago chronicled the Arab migration into Palestine. Avigoldstein ( talk) 00:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Sol, Cockburn is, and Said was, radically anti-Zionist and anti-Israel. Yet if one wants to question FTI, that is fine. But to simply discredit based on specious sources is untenable. Avigoldstein ( talk) 01:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Sol, you are just repeating yourself; and no matter how often you say it, repetition does not make something true. Avigoldstein ( talk) 03:21, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Anyway, I do favor compromise wording that gives voice to both sides of the debate, linking to the Demographics of Palestine wiki. Should I try a more concise wording than above suggestion? Will be happy to, but exhausted and not feeling well and could probably do so tomorrow. Avigoldstein ( talk) 03:30, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
How does this sound? "A body of opinion maintains that significant Arab immigration into Palestine accompanied the influx of Jews. The matter is not settled, with other scholars insisting that the Arab population increase is mostly attributable to natural increase." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Palestine for a detailed discussion. Avigoldstein ( talk) 03:43, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
First, Nableezy continues to repeat the line that "reliable sources" call this a fraud, yet almost every source yet produced by those who disagree with me is far from reliable and certainly not peer-reviewed. I thought we had put this part to rest, but I guess not. Second, no one disputes that there was an Arab majority in large parts of Mandatory Palestine for a considerable period. Moreover, it is not my intention to imply that "these are all just Arabs from other places." Neither do I think that Arabs had no right to move into Palestine (if indeed they did).The issue here is whether the sentences describing Jewish immigration lend the impression that the Jews are interlopers when there may have been a significant consequent Arab immigration. I think this is a legitimate concern of mine. I thought we were moving to consensus; looks like Nableezy is not yet part of that consensus. Perhaps we can have input from the other interested parties. Avigoldstein ( talk) 05:36, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Carwil, I can live with your phrasing with a link to Demographics. What do the rest of you think? (I wonder, as an aside, what Tessler means by "born outside the country." The terminology seems anachronistic, since there technically was a Mandate, not a country. And does he include the three-quarters of Palestine that had been chopped off the promised Jewish national home in 1922 and made into Jordan as part of the country or outside the country?) At any rate, sounds good, Carwil. Avigoldstein ( talk) 13:55, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Agada, looks like more credit to Carwil for creating this formulation. Very interesting process here, as we seek to present verifiable information and avoid ... um... urban legends. Avigoldstein ( talk) 15:22, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
I believe the infobox on Palestinian National Authority should be moved to this page, but would like to prompt discussion on the matter on its page, first, so feel free to head over there and voice your thoughts. ~ Araignee ( talk • contribs) 18:09, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
The map currently featured at the top of this page ('West Bank & Gaza Map 2007 (Settlements).png') inaccurately represents the extent of the area controlled by the Palestinian National Authority. Areas under PNA control in the West Bank are significantly exaggerated on the map, as is apparent from reviewing the source materials listed on the map file's own info page. I suggest that the green areas on the map be changed to more accurately represent the extent of Areas A and B, or be replaced with a map that does so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evzob ( talk • contribs) 07:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm done. I was looking for a non-biased, non-partisan article. Guess I'll keep looking. The load of shit I found here reads more like something published by the PNA Public Relations Office.-- 72.47.85.22 ( talk) 03:54, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Is there a reason that East Jerusalem is excluded from this article in the definition and maps of the Palestinian Territories? 97.91.176.159 ( talk) 20:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Someone should add information because it is missing from the article but very relevant. Specifically, page 8: http://www.iasps.org/policystudies/ps49.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.77.156.152 ( talk) 02:27, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
The phrase "Under Israeli Occupation Since 1967" as part of the title of the map is not accurate. Being it a subjective statement, it should not be included in such map and in Wikipedia. Israeli forces withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 1994 [ref: http://www.actforpeace.org.au/What_We_Do/Where_We_Work/Middle_East/Israel_Palestine/Israel_Palestine_Timeline.aspx] and in 2005 from most areas of the West Bank. In spite of later sporadic and brief Israeli incursions into part of those territories as a response to Palestinian rocket bombardment of Israel, etc., those territories are actually under Palestinian control. Analogously for example, any blockade of American trade, flow of goods and sanctions we have against Cuba do not mean that we are occupying Cuba. (If Havana were to retaliate against the US by launching missiles into Florida, I would not be surprised if we punished Cuba severely.) If there are settlements and areas that are occupied by Israel, they can be specifically demarcated on the map, and the phrase in question could be used to qualify those specific areas only (for example, like Guantanamo is demarcated on a map of Cuba.) Therefore I request that the phrase in question be deleted from the title on the map, or the map itself be replaced with an updated one. 98.217.147.183 ( talk) 18:49, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
I think you are confused by saying "These are the territories of "Palestine" in which the Palestinians define as their own state and the majority of the recogni...", because this article is defined as geographic, while for the State of Palestine and the Palestinian National Authority you can find separate articles. By putting "country" template you are just hurting the reader's comprehension. Let's clarify:
Can we be clear on this? Greyshark09 ( talk) 21:01, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Well, Puerto Rico is the name of a Commonwealth, as well as "territory" (island). It is not the case for "Palestinian territories" - an area only theoretically identified with the State of Palestine, but actually controlled by three parties - Israel, PNA and Hamas-led government of Gaza. Claiming Palestinian Territories is a "state" you practically denounce the "State of Palestine", as the name of the entity. I bet you didn't mean to... Greyshark09 ( talk) 18:33, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
[4] "'Against whom could we demonstrate in the Gaza Strip? When Gaza was occupied, that model was applicable,' Zahar said." Retrieved from Ma'an News Agency, January 5, 2012
This statement was deleted from the article, on the premise that Zahar also said "since we are resisting occupation, we should use all means including armed resistance." But the full paragraph in which he says that is:
"We can't use the same means seen in Egypt, Syria, and Tunisia because they are inappropriate in the West Bank. Egypt got rid of the British occupation with arms, and since we are resisting occupation, we should use all means including armed resistance."
He is saying that the West Bank is occupied, not Gaza. - Lisa ( talk - contribs) 15:08, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Which part of this edit that you reverted do you have a problem with? Thanks.-- brew crewer (yada, yada) 19:05, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Currently, the first sentence does not say what "Palestinian territores" actually are. It just mention the historical fact that they're "part of the area predestined by the United Nations to become the territory of the future arabic/Palestinian state". While that certainly is an important fact which is approprate to include in the lead, I don't think it should be the first sentence the reader sees. The first sentence should say what the article topic actually is about.-- Frederico1234 ( talk) 15:05, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Please state who makes which claims about terms such as "occupied", rather than simply asserting that the "international community" claims this. There is no way to gauge what the "international community" believes because countries do not speak with one voice and there is no world government to speak for them. Also, please be careful using citations that refer to the "Occupied Territories" as proof that a particular organization has a particular view. An organization like the EU is very big; if some press releases (perhaps only a few, cherry-picked) say "Occupied Terroritories" and some (perhaps a lot more) say "West Bank", does that "prove" that the EU has a particular view as a whole, or simply that whoever wrote the cherry-picked press release uses this term? Furthermore, if an EU press release says "Occupied" in reference to Gaza pre-2005, that is NOT in any way relevant to the situation post-2005.
In short: Because this issue is so controversial, please hew closely to the undisputed facts. A claim that the EU has a particular view should be sourced to an EU statement asserting such a view, not simply a passing reference. A couple references by random NGO's is hardly evidence of the "international community"; I'm sure plenty of other NGO's have opposite views. Benwing ( talk) 21:39, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
I deleted the following:
The reason is that nearly all the links refer to pre-2005 (i.e. when Israel exited Gaza), and most are dead. As a result they are highly unlikely to be relevant today. I seriously doubt very many US government officials will claim that Gaza is occupied by Israel. The sole reference is to a CNN article with a claim to "some US government web sites" without identifying which ones. See my comment above about distinguishing official policy with occasional references. Benwing ( talk) 21:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Palestine officially declared statehood in the 80's. Only hostile countries refer to them as territories and not a state. This needs to be changed. 24.207.129.95 ( talk) 14:56, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi,
I would like that who ever support the term "occupied" for those territories, will answer the legal claims of the Israeli goverment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGYxLWUKwWo
otherwise, it shouldn't be names as "occupied" but "controversial".
Wikipedia shouldn't decide by political intrests, but only a true justice. Exx8 ( talk) 23:29, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
The infobox of the Palestinian Authority should not be used here as copy-paste - this is just confusing. This article is about geography and history of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, not the geopolitical entitities, currently existing there (PNA and Hamas Administration). "Palestinian territories" don't have President and government and a representative in the UN - this is the Palestinian Authority. In addition, oPt term had been largely in use before 1993, when the PA was established. Greyshark09 ( talk) 06:43, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
User @Emmette Hernandez Coleman, i herewith assume WP:GF and kindly ask you to return the infobox to its original structure prior your edit a few days ago [27], in accordance with editors' consensus from December 2011 [28].If a new consensus is reached then you would be able to change the infobox contents. Greyshark09 ( talk) 11:12, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Greyshark, this is nonsense. I'm not denying that the PA will be discussed by RS. The point is that it is not used to describe the same thing as the Palestinian Territories. Comparing google hits for two terms that describe different things makes no sense at all. Dlv999 ( talk) 11:17, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
@Dlv, I'm speaking only of WP:RS, but i also would like you to see the whole picture per WP:COMMONNAME. Let's try this simplified - The President of PNA (geopolitical entity) came to the UN last year and asked that the UN will recognize PNA rights over Pt (geographic area) and the PNA (current geopolitical entity) will become promoted to be the State of Palestine (currently not existent). In case UN does so and promotes PNA status from autonomy to statehood, then parts of Palestinian territories (their status now being disputed), which are not under actual control of the State of Palestine will be defined as Palestinian state territories occupied by Israel (a.k.a Judea and Samaria area) and Hamas (Gaza administration). And please don't base yourself too much on journalist reviews - this is improper. And if speaking of BBC - see this map [38]. Here are some sources treating PNA as an entity:
In any case, if so many people don't see PNA as an entity, i guess its Palestinian cause is lost - occupied forever. Greyshark09 ( talk) 16:44, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I don't think there's a real problem with including the flag in the infobox, since that's been a general broad "movement" symbol for more than 40 years. However, including a coat of arms is a different question, since each such emblem is associated with one specific political grouping, and not with the "Palestinian territories" in general... AnonMoos ( talk) 17:59, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
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