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I am conscious of POV issues surrounding the name "Palestine", so I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but I would like to know what the best article link is for Wikipedia lists of nations etc. I am asking here purely from an implementation perspective, as I have been doing a lot of work recently for Wikipedia:WikiProject Flag Template. There are a lot of articles that contain lists of nations, dependencies, etc. List of countries is perhaps the best example. On those lists, there are flag icons followed by a wikilink to the main article for the nation. (e.g. France). What is the most appropriate article link to be used in conjunction with this region? Is it this article (e.g. Palestinian territories)? I have seen several instances where Palestinian National Authority is the wikilinked article, but that seems a bit odd to me, as it refers to the governing organization rather than the region, but perhaps for some NPOV reason, maybe it is the best choice. I don't know - that's why I'm asking here. Is there any consensus on what we should standardize upon for Wikipedia? Andrwsc 18:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I just stumbled on references to Kenneth W. Stein's book LAND QUESTION IN PALESTINE: 1917-1939. I haven't seen the book, but he has his final chapter "conclusions" online: http://www.ismi.emory.edu/Books/LQPConclusion.html and his bio, cv, pubs, etc are at http://www.ismi.emory.edu/Stein/cvpres.html. This final chapter, sans details, makes far more sense than the zionist mythology of a vacant land... And it provides hints of key British and other documents on Palestine land law during that era that might be online and original source material. As this paints a different picture than is found scattered in various articles, and that are totally unsatisfactory using limited census and land ownership snapshots, this seems to point to some significant research and editing. I trust that one of the projects has the perspective needed. Mulp 09:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Please see Category:Palestinian territories and:
I am following the request to "Go to talk, and explain why UN documentation and ICJ terms are POV." The 1947 UN Partition Plan does not mention the term "Palestinian territories". Instead, it says about "Arab State" and "Samaria and Judea" [1]. The rest of the rewrite seems to be of the same quality. Please walk us through your changes here at talk if you insist, but do not rewrite a stable article that was a subject of many compromises. As for the UN, since 1950s-60s it has been a part of the conflict, and therefore its terminology is partisan and its neutrality is questionable. Thanks. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 21:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
No, you are incorrect in making a complete revert if you have just one specific objection. Your objection is not quite clear, so I will analyse it.
It is not sufficient to have an 'impression'(seems to be of the same quality). The fact is that the rest of the rewrite documents quite closely that in UN documentation and the International Court of Justice document of 2004, which fully reviews the various issues from 1947 to 2003 and lays down a 14 to 1 judgement in favour of that territory being Occupied Palestinian Territory. The wording 'Palestinian territories' is a term widely used in the Israeli media: it is not a word that is accepted in serious internatinal forums. That was not clear, indeed it was obfuscated in the original article, which was almost wholly an Israeli POV for the first part. You may detect a POV in my alterations, and I would be glad if you show me where it subsists. But you damage the page by reverting it to a state whose POV is conspicuous for its lack of proper documentation on agreed international usage. This is not a page to put forth Israel's unique interpretation of the status of the Occupied Palestinian territories. It is a page devoted to the meaning of that term, which has currency only in Israeli usage.
I'd be glad to walk you through my changes. But I worked slowly waiting for someone to come in and challenge this, and no one seems to have looked. If you wish, I will answer any particular question, beginning with the original point you raised. Until tomorrow Nishidani 21:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
'The 1947 UN Partition Plan does not mention the term "Palestinian territories". Instead, it says about "Arab State" and "Samaria and Judea" '
In correct English, for one thing, that should be 'The term/phrase Palestinian territories . .btw) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nishidani ( talk • contribs).
p.s. if you see the earlier article to which you reverted, the article is implying, against UN deliberations and the UN Partition Plan, that 'Palestinian territories' refers to Jordanian and Egyptian territories conquered by Israel in 1967. In the UN Partition Plan of 1947, the Arab State prefigured was neither Jordanian nor Egyptian, and to use that phrasing is to argue that there was no project for a future Arab state, distinct from Jordan and Egypt, in the 1947 plan, which is patently untrue. That was my primary objection, and I have hewed strictly to the legal documentation of the UN in successive deliberations, and to the judgement of the International Court of Justice in 2004 to clarify the dangerous and misleading statements in that earlier version. I did not substantially alter the remaining text which presents the reasons for Israel's refusal to accept both the UN and the ICJ's judgements. Israel's POV is thus retained, but it is preceded by not a POV, but a statement of the legal situation in terms of international law, which is not a POV, but has the authority of law. Nishidani 22:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
whatsoever the Armistice Demarcation Lines . . . ,
tickle You ask
The source, if one is needed (all you need do is ask, without erasing everything. It's quicker.
'Zahal's (Israel Defense Force's) victory in the Six Day War placed the people and the state within a new and fateful period. The whole of Eretz Yisrael is now in the hands of the Jewish people, and just as we are not allowed to give up the State of Israel, so we are ordered to keep what we received there from Eretz Yisrael. We are bound to be loyal to the entirety of the country-for the sake of the people's past as well as its future, and no government in Israel is entitled to give up this entirety, which represents the inherent and in-alienable right of our people from the beginnings of its history n 2 cited Ian S.Lustik, chapter 3 ‘The Evolution of Gush Emunim’ in his ‘’For the Land and the Lordf (1988) Council on Foreign Relations, Washington 2nd ed.1994
'those who even discuss territorial concessions are committing the sin of "profanation of the Name of God." 10 Portions of the Land of Israel not yet ruled by Jews must, he writes, be acquired at any cost: We must settle the whole Land of Israel, and over all of it establish our rule. In the words of [Nachmanides]: "Do not abandon the land to any other nation." If that is possible by peaceful means, wonderful, and if not, we are commanded to make war to accomplish it.n 11'
, the Six Day War gave impetus to radical changes within this movement. Incubated within its schools, youth movement, and seminaries, and within the National Religious Party, was the Young Guard, which expressed disgust with the machine-style, status quo politics of the older generation. Instead, the tzeirim (youth) advanced a political program focusing on establishment of Jewish sovereignty over the whole Land of Israel as a decisive step toward hastening a divinely ordained process of redemption, which they believed had already begun. This leadership cadre, and the national religious subcultural cohort it represented, formed the basis of Israel's Jewish fundamentalist movement-dedicated to the uncompromising implementation of transcendental imperatives through political action.
Nishidani 13:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
There are several dozen passages from historians and settlers documents that I can provide you at request. They all underline what the phrase you questioned doubts. Therefore, the passage you have elided is perfectly justifiable. All one need do is add the above source (Lustik has a chair at Philadelphia University)
You question, legitimately the phrasing of the following passage.
Ironically, if such claims are indeed made, then they coincide with the same territorial boundaries that many Jewish fundamentalists assert to be the natural biblical boundaries which must be restored to Israel's sovereignty, from Lebanon to Cairo and Iraq'
That was written when I read this remark, which was in the text you keep reverting to:-
Some advocates have claimed that maps used in schools under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority depict this state as consisting of all the territory between the Mediterranean Sea, Lebanon, Syria, the Jordan River and Egypt — including Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip. [citation needed]
What was wrong with this? (1) It is unsourced. No one has protested that such an unsourced statement be removed. You appear not to be troubled by it, since you haven't touched it. But you do object to my balacing statement. Well that statement I can source:-
i.e.again from Lustik:
'One of the most respected scholars in Gush Emunim, Yehuda Elitzur, has outlined several more or less concentric territorial shapes for the Jewish state on the basis of biblical sources. He considers the "promised," or "patriarchal," boundaries-extending to the Euphrates River, southern Turkey, Transjordan, and the Nile Delta-"the ideal borders." The borders as reflected in the lands conquered by the "generation that left Egypt"-including northeastern Sinai, Lebanon and western Syria, the Golan Heights, and much of Transjordan-are the lands Israel is required eventually to conquer and settle.'
I put the word 'ironically' in, because that is exactly what it is. You don't like it? Well, we'll take it out. And leave the passage from Lustik above, sourcing it. Thus the emended text will run:-
Some advocates have claimed that maps used in schools under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority depict this state as consisting of all the territory between the Mediterranean Sea, Lebanon, Syria, the Jordan River and Egypt — including Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip. [citation needed]. These maps coincide with the same territorial boundaries that many Jewish fundamentalists assert to be the natural biblical boundaries which must be restored to Israel's sovereignty, from Lebanon to Cairo and Iraq'(Source. Ian Lustik, For the Lord and the Land' (1988) 2nd ed.1994 ch.3
I hope this rephrasing satisfies your concerns.
On that I agree thoroughly. The term 'Palestinian territories' is not controversial perhaps in Israel, it is controversial outside of Israel where universal usage refers to 'Cisjordan/Palestine/Palestinian Occupied Territories'. The phrase is current in Israeli usage.
So one could rewrite: 'The term 'Palestinian territories' is mainly one of Israeli usage, to denote what in International law, UN deliberations and general Western usage is referred to as 'The West Bank and Gaza', 'Occupied Palestinian territories' or 'Palestine'.
P.s. you are not exchanging lengthy essays: I am writing lengthy essays to reply minutely to every brief and to me incomprehensible objection you make in phrases or two or three words. I am justifying my choices, you are simply asserting your judgements by what strikes me as a vague and arbitrary claim of POV. So, please answer my earlier remarks and tell me why UN Documentation and ICJ rulings cannot be used, as I used them, to define the word 'Palestinian Territories'? You have asked Tiamut (sp?) and myself you explain ourselves here. All you have done is to revert and make a few quips. Nishidani 13:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
ps.The text you keep reverting to is POV-challenged, as the heading notes. You take my revision as POV (arguable. Let's argue it), but show a preference for the earlier text, which is labelled as 'neutrality disputed' and therefore subject to POV doubts. In reverting you are confirming an unreliable text against a text whose unreliability has yet to be formally challenged (except by these recent undocumented charges behind your reversions) This is not good Wiki practice, and you have interrupted another editor's attempt to mediate on the two. My revised text may be objectionable, but it is just as valid as the earlier one, and you show a bias in preferring the former one. These are texts that are under constant revision, and therefore this reverting practice is simply damaging to the collaborative work required. Regards Nishidani 13:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Nishidani - you have made extensive changes to a contentious topic, changes which were viewed by several editors as POV. It was sugegsted to you, and I repeat this suggestion, that you discuss the changes you wnat to intorduce, one by one, here on Talk, so we can evaluate their mertis.
I'll start with the very first sentence you wnat to include, which states:
The Palestinian territories is one of a number of designations for those portions of the British Mandate of Palestinewhich under the UN Partition Plan of 1947 were designated as constituting the territory of a future Arab state of Palestine,
This is simply false. As te harticle later describes, the term Palestinian territories is used to describe the Eastern parts of Jerusalem, but that territory was never 'designated as constituting the territory of a future Arab state of Palestine' by the UN partition plan. Th ecurrent article phrasing, which says 'The Palestinian territories is one of a number of designations for those portions of the British Mandate of Palestine captured and militarily occupied by Egypt and Jordan, and later, in the Six-Day War, by Israel.' is more accurate , and fully NPOV. Yours is not. Isarig 19:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
http://www.mideastweb.org/UNpartition.htm)
@nishidani
-- tickle me 08:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Please discuss any changes here. Further reverts will be reported as WP:3RR violations. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 23:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I can't say what documents are in the UN archives, but my parents own many records of "Palestinian folk songs" (i.e., pre-1948 Zionist folk songs).
Arise and Build, a 1960 history of the Labor Zionist youth movement Habonim, refers to " the Palestinian terrorist organization Irgun Zvai Leumi" ( Irgun). The publication of Arise and Build was 8 or 9 years before Golda Meir's "There were no such thing as Palestinians" comment.
If necessary, I will find dozens of references to the Jews of pre-1948 Palestine as Palestinians. There was never any question that they were Palestinians. The word sabra didn't come into use until the 1930s, and it was a Hebrew word. In English, the Jews of Palestine were Palestinians. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 23:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The UN has all the League of Nation documents in its archives. The term Palestinian was not used the phrase Jews in Palestine and Jews of Palestine, Arabs in Palestine and Arab of Palestine are the terms used repeatedly. I've gone from the Fisal letters to 1960 and there is no use of the term Palestinian for either Jews or Arabs in the UN docs. All the Palestine Post copies that are available on the net none again refer to Palestinians again in either context. The first use of the term Palestinian seems to have come in the early 60's and then when its use started to gain ground in use to refer to Arab refugees Golda then gave her quote about how she was a Palestinian. it is very difficult to prove a negative hence using "Bogus claim". nowhere have I every seen the claim substantiated.
If you do have any reference to its usage in the early 60's I would be very pleased to hear about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashley kennedy3 ( talk • contribs) 01:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC) PS how do I sign properly??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashley kennedy3 ( talk • contribs) 01:21, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The UN archives also has pre League of Nation Docs, principally McMahon-Hussein Correspondenceand Balfour Declaration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashley kennedy3 ( talk • contribs) 01:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The earliest use of the term Palestinian that I have found is 18 July 1966 used by Syrian Delegate to the UN. "Syria emphasized that its Government could not be held responsible for the activities of El-Fatah and El-Asefa, nor for the rise of Palestinian Arab organizations." Prior to that it is as with the Christian Science Monitor of 28 October 1966 they all say "Palestine Arab."
The link with Palestinian in referring to Jews in Palestine I believe has only come about from the Golda quote. Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 03:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
There reference to the Churchill white paper is to all the Citizens of Palestine not to one or other group but to the collective of both Arab and Jewish populations, it also occurs in one of the Royal Commissions as a collective for describing both groups together. When Arabs or Jews were mentioned as separate groups it was as Jews, Arabs, Jews of Palestine or Arabs of Palestine but never as Palestinians.
The cultural reference in "THE FOUNDING OF HABONIM (1930-1935") "It was decided to follow the Palestinian pattern and have a semi-formal gathering called pegisha". and your examples again refer to the practices found in the land of Palestine rather than to people. The Arabs had the semi-informal gatherings long before the Mandate period. Thanks for the sources, I shall go through them for provenance and context. 86.162.157.2 ( talk) 08:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC) Sorry I hadn't logged in, does anyone know what language the original was in? Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 09:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I have a sort of anecdote to add here. I have a reprint of a letter by Chaim Weizmann concerning a relative of mine, Prof. Yehuda Hirshberg. The letter is dated 20th January 1930, and is addressed to Professor Speyer at the University of Brussels, where Hirshberg was doing his PhD work, and in it Weizmann asks Speyer if he can do something to help Hirshberg financially. The letter begins with this: "I understand that at the university of Brussels there is a Palestinian boy, a Mr. Yehuda Hirshberg, who is supposed to be a brilliant chemist."
When I first read this it seemed quite amusing to me, the use of "Palestinian boy", but this was not unusual for that time. okedem ( talk) 12:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Hope that helps. Tiamut talk 13:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
That's more or less what I find. The Yishuv didn't seem to use the term Palestinian to refer to themselves and the term Palestinian was only used when referring to the whole population collectively.
On the "HaBonim Arise and Build" one of the articles is said to be dated 1946 yet I have it down as being written in 1985.
Engee Caller, “From Brooklyn to Palestine in 1939 (Kibbutz Kfar Blum, 1985) as quoted by David B. Ruderman and Guiseppe Veltri, eds. Cultural Intermediaries: Jewish Intellectuals in Early Modern Italy. Jewish Culture and Contexts. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2004. 293 pp.
So I'm a bit dubious about the provenance of the "HaBonim Arise and Build"
The SHIMON KAUFMAN, Los Angeles, 1958 can also be found at http://www.dpcamps.org/illegalimmigration.html So the claim rests on one article by Shimon Kaufman an American writing in 1958 about his experiences in 1947. No much to base a generalisation on?
The other articles had the context of borrowing from Arab culture and should be dismissed as references to Geographical location rather than to people. Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 15:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The Habonim Arise and Build shows up some funny pieces:
in “Builders and dreamers: Habonim Labor Zionist youth in North America” By J. J. Goldberg, Elliot King Illegal Immigration SHIMON KAUFMAN, Los Angeles, 1958 becomes: Cyprus 1947 “The British scarcely provided the Red Carpet Treatment SHIMON KAUFMAN, Los Angeles, 1958 And “Illegal Immigration” Laying the groundwork Akiva Skidell, Kfar Blum 1985
Looks like "HaBonim Arise and Build" has been tampered with. This should make for an interesting chapter. Thanks for the heads up on the "Habonim Arise and Build" Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 16:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
In HaBonim Arise and Build THE FOUNDING OF HABONIM SAADIA GELB, Kfar Blum. 1959
Becomes in “Builders and dreamers: Habonim Labor Zionist youth in North America” By J. J. Goldberg, Elliot King THE FOUNDING OF HABONIM Into the whirlwind of History SAADIA GELB, Kfar Blum. 1985
For HaBonim Arise and Build 1960 to have articles written in 1985 makes it well ahead of its time. I don't think HaBonim Arise and Build has a very good provenance. Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 17:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Arise and Build is a history of the first 25 years of Habonim, and it was published in 1960, the 25th anniversary of the founding. Perhaps Kfar Blum, a kibbutz largely established by Habonim members, reprinted the book in 1985, the 50th anniversary of Habonim's founding.
Builders and Dreamers is a different book that was written for the movement's 50th anniversary. It may have reprinted some of the essays from the older book.
Re: the publication of Arise and Build, see this citation in Essays in Modern Jewish History: A Tribute to Ben Halpern (note 5, page 307), this citation in Envisioning Israel: The Changing Ideals and Images of North American Jews (note 42, page 102), and this citation in American Jewish Women and the Zionist Enterprise (note 2, page 217). The book was brought out in 1961, one year following the 25th anniversary, not 1960. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 02:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
What was the original language of the "haBonim Arise and Build"?
Because in "Dreamers and Builders" it gives the essays as dated 1985, is this date of translation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.157.2 ( talk) 11:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry forgot to log in. Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 11:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The lead needs to be rewritten. In contemporary usage, Palestinian Territories means the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. That should be stated clearly right in the first sentence. No one uses the term to mean Areas A and B of the Oslo accords, as the second paragraph of the lead currently misleadingly suggests (Today, the designation typically refers to the territories governed in varying degrees by the Palestinian Authority (42% of the West Bank plus all of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip)). It should be noted that in the Declaration of Principles of the Oslo accords, it was agreed by both sides that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip consititute a "single territorial unit". It is true that Israel and the Palestinians disagree on exactly what territory is spanned by the West Bank. That should be mentioned also (and is).
Here are some sources that clearly use the term Palestinian Territories to mean the West Bank and Gaza:
The careful wording of the BBC profile (Palestinian Ministry of Information cites 5,970 sq km (2,305 sq miles) for West Bank territories and 365 sq km (141 sq miles) for Gaza) may be recommended as appropriate neutral wording for this article.
The whole bit in the article which claims that the term Palestinian Territories is used by "journalists to indicate lands where Palestinian people dwell" and "some Arab nationalists" is original research and plainly wrong, as the examples I've given above indicate.
Judea and Samaria does not have the same geographical meaning as Palestinian Territories. Judea and Samaria refers to the West Bank. Yesha does refer to the same geographical region as Palestinian Territories. A case can be made for merging that article into this one.
It needs to be mentioned, in the lead, that these territories are officially referred to as the Occupied Palestinian Territories by the United Nations. We can also mention in the lead that Israeli officials usually use the term "the territories", although as far as I'm aware the Israeli government has never made a formal objection to the term Palestinian Territories without Occupied in front. Sanguinalis 03:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
The term 'Palestinian' has its roots in the name of the ancient Philistines, a sea-faring people who settled in the Gaza area, adjacent to the Israelites. The Philistines were not Semites, did not speak a Semitic languague and were instead most likely of Mycenaean origin. Susequent to the full Roman conquest of ancient Israel and Judea, along with the Romans' 70 C.E. destruction of the Hebrew temple and capital in Jerusalem, and the expulsion of large numbers of the Jewish population, the Romans applied the Latin word "Palestine" to the entire area. This term was then periodically used in the Common Era to refer to the lands of Israel, Judea and Samaria, Gaza and the southern part of what was loosely termed Greater Syria. With the exception many smaller ethnic groups, including the indigenous Christians and Jews who continued to speak Aramean and Hebrew, respectively, Arabic became one of the dominant languages of the Greater Palestinian region after the Arabian Muslim conquests beginning in the 600-700s C.E.
This section and the one after it seem way too critical and biased against Israel. -- Erroneuz1 ( talk) 07:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Why was my edit rolled back? The current wording in the beginning is a biased POV as to what happened with the land. A Jew will say the 6 day war liberated Judea/Samaria and Gaza, while an Arab would say they captured those places. The only people who technically captured them were Egypt and Jordan. No sovereign country was ever conquered/captured. Relinquish is a word that plainly means let go of. The idea being that it's a neutral word for Egypt and Jordan no longer controlled the territories, and Israel now does. Further disputed territories makes most sense because if one group says one thing and another something else in which there is a dispute then they are disputed. Just because the whole world believes in one thing doesn't matter, the world isn't a democracy. -- Saxophonemn ( talk) 14:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
'The first charter for Israel was written down 3500 years ago in the Torah.'
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
I am conscious of POV issues surrounding the name "Palestine", so I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but I would like to know what the best article link is for Wikipedia lists of nations etc. I am asking here purely from an implementation perspective, as I have been doing a lot of work recently for Wikipedia:WikiProject Flag Template. There are a lot of articles that contain lists of nations, dependencies, etc. List of countries is perhaps the best example. On those lists, there are flag icons followed by a wikilink to the main article for the nation. (e.g. France). What is the most appropriate article link to be used in conjunction with this region? Is it this article (e.g. Palestinian territories)? I have seen several instances where Palestinian National Authority is the wikilinked article, but that seems a bit odd to me, as it refers to the governing organization rather than the region, but perhaps for some NPOV reason, maybe it is the best choice. I don't know - that's why I'm asking here. Is there any consensus on what we should standardize upon for Wikipedia? Andrwsc 18:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I just stumbled on references to Kenneth W. Stein's book LAND QUESTION IN PALESTINE: 1917-1939. I haven't seen the book, but he has his final chapter "conclusions" online: http://www.ismi.emory.edu/Books/LQPConclusion.html and his bio, cv, pubs, etc are at http://www.ismi.emory.edu/Stein/cvpres.html. This final chapter, sans details, makes far more sense than the zionist mythology of a vacant land... And it provides hints of key British and other documents on Palestine land law during that era that might be online and original source material. As this paints a different picture than is found scattered in various articles, and that are totally unsatisfactory using limited census and land ownership snapshots, this seems to point to some significant research and editing. I trust that one of the projects has the perspective needed. Mulp 09:39, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Please see Category:Palestinian territories and:
I am following the request to "Go to talk, and explain why UN documentation and ICJ terms are POV." The 1947 UN Partition Plan does not mention the term "Palestinian territories". Instead, it says about "Arab State" and "Samaria and Judea" [1]. The rest of the rewrite seems to be of the same quality. Please walk us through your changes here at talk if you insist, but do not rewrite a stable article that was a subject of many compromises. As for the UN, since 1950s-60s it has been a part of the conflict, and therefore its terminology is partisan and its neutrality is questionable. Thanks. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 21:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
No, you are incorrect in making a complete revert if you have just one specific objection. Your objection is not quite clear, so I will analyse it.
It is not sufficient to have an 'impression'(seems to be of the same quality). The fact is that the rest of the rewrite documents quite closely that in UN documentation and the International Court of Justice document of 2004, which fully reviews the various issues from 1947 to 2003 and lays down a 14 to 1 judgement in favour of that territory being Occupied Palestinian Territory. The wording 'Palestinian territories' is a term widely used in the Israeli media: it is not a word that is accepted in serious internatinal forums. That was not clear, indeed it was obfuscated in the original article, which was almost wholly an Israeli POV for the first part. You may detect a POV in my alterations, and I would be glad if you show me where it subsists. But you damage the page by reverting it to a state whose POV is conspicuous for its lack of proper documentation on agreed international usage. This is not a page to put forth Israel's unique interpretation of the status of the Occupied Palestinian territories. It is a page devoted to the meaning of that term, which has currency only in Israeli usage.
I'd be glad to walk you through my changes. But I worked slowly waiting for someone to come in and challenge this, and no one seems to have looked. If you wish, I will answer any particular question, beginning with the original point you raised. Until tomorrow Nishidani 21:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
'The 1947 UN Partition Plan does not mention the term "Palestinian territories". Instead, it says about "Arab State" and "Samaria and Judea" '
In correct English, for one thing, that should be 'The term/phrase Palestinian territories . .btw) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nishidani ( talk • contribs).
p.s. if you see the earlier article to which you reverted, the article is implying, against UN deliberations and the UN Partition Plan, that 'Palestinian territories' refers to Jordanian and Egyptian territories conquered by Israel in 1967. In the UN Partition Plan of 1947, the Arab State prefigured was neither Jordanian nor Egyptian, and to use that phrasing is to argue that there was no project for a future Arab state, distinct from Jordan and Egypt, in the 1947 plan, which is patently untrue. That was my primary objection, and I have hewed strictly to the legal documentation of the UN in successive deliberations, and to the judgement of the International Court of Justice in 2004 to clarify the dangerous and misleading statements in that earlier version. I did not substantially alter the remaining text which presents the reasons for Israel's refusal to accept both the UN and the ICJ's judgements. Israel's POV is thus retained, but it is preceded by not a POV, but a statement of the legal situation in terms of international law, which is not a POV, but has the authority of law. Nishidani 22:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
whatsoever the Armistice Demarcation Lines . . . ,
tickle You ask
The source, if one is needed (all you need do is ask, without erasing everything. It's quicker.
'Zahal's (Israel Defense Force's) victory in the Six Day War placed the people and the state within a new and fateful period. The whole of Eretz Yisrael is now in the hands of the Jewish people, and just as we are not allowed to give up the State of Israel, so we are ordered to keep what we received there from Eretz Yisrael. We are bound to be loyal to the entirety of the country-for the sake of the people's past as well as its future, and no government in Israel is entitled to give up this entirety, which represents the inherent and in-alienable right of our people from the beginnings of its history n 2 cited Ian S.Lustik, chapter 3 ‘The Evolution of Gush Emunim’ in his ‘’For the Land and the Lordf (1988) Council on Foreign Relations, Washington 2nd ed.1994
'those who even discuss territorial concessions are committing the sin of "profanation of the Name of God." 10 Portions of the Land of Israel not yet ruled by Jews must, he writes, be acquired at any cost: We must settle the whole Land of Israel, and over all of it establish our rule. In the words of [Nachmanides]: "Do not abandon the land to any other nation." If that is possible by peaceful means, wonderful, and if not, we are commanded to make war to accomplish it.n 11'
, the Six Day War gave impetus to radical changes within this movement. Incubated within its schools, youth movement, and seminaries, and within the National Religious Party, was the Young Guard, which expressed disgust with the machine-style, status quo politics of the older generation. Instead, the tzeirim (youth) advanced a political program focusing on establishment of Jewish sovereignty over the whole Land of Israel as a decisive step toward hastening a divinely ordained process of redemption, which they believed had already begun. This leadership cadre, and the national religious subcultural cohort it represented, formed the basis of Israel's Jewish fundamentalist movement-dedicated to the uncompromising implementation of transcendental imperatives through political action.
Nishidani 13:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
There are several dozen passages from historians and settlers documents that I can provide you at request. They all underline what the phrase you questioned doubts. Therefore, the passage you have elided is perfectly justifiable. All one need do is add the above source (Lustik has a chair at Philadelphia University)
You question, legitimately the phrasing of the following passage.
Ironically, if such claims are indeed made, then they coincide with the same territorial boundaries that many Jewish fundamentalists assert to be the natural biblical boundaries which must be restored to Israel's sovereignty, from Lebanon to Cairo and Iraq'
That was written when I read this remark, which was in the text you keep reverting to:-
Some advocates have claimed that maps used in schools under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority depict this state as consisting of all the territory between the Mediterranean Sea, Lebanon, Syria, the Jordan River and Egypt — including Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip. [citation needed]
What was wrong with this? (1) It is unsourced. No one has protested that such an unsourced statement be removed. You appear not to be troubled by it, since you haven't touched it. But you do object to my balacing statement. Well that statement I can source:-
i.e.again from Lustik:
'One of the most respected scholars in Gush Emunim, Yehuda Elitzur, has outlined several more or less concentric territorial shapes for the Jewish state on the basis of biblical sources. He considers the "promised," or "patriarchal," boundaries-extending to the Euphrates River, southern Turkey, Transjordan, and the Nile Delta-"the ideal borders." The borders as reflected in the lands conquered by the "generation that left Egypt"-including northeastern Sinai, Lebanon and western Syria, the Golan Heights, and much of Transjordan-are the lands Israel is required eventually to conquer and settle.'
I put the word 'ironically' in, because that is exactly what it is. You don't like it? Well, we'll take it out. And leave the passage from Lustik above, sourcing it. Thus the emended text will run:-
Some advocates have claimed that maps used in schools under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority depict this state as consisting of all the territory between the Mediterranean Sea, Lebanon, Syria, the Jordan River and Egypt — including Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip. [citation needed]. These maps coincide with the same territorial boundaries that many Jewish fundamentalists assert to be the natural biblical boundaries which must be restored to Israel's sovereignty, from Lebanon to Cairo and Iraq'(Source. Ian Lustik, For the Lord and the Land' (1988) 2nd ed.1994 ch.3
I hope this rephrasing satisfies your concerns.
On that I agree thoroughly. The term 'Palestinian territories' is not controversial perhaps in Israel, it is controversial outside of Israel where universal usage refers to 'Cisjordan/Palestine/Palestinian Occupied Territories'. The phrase is current in Israeli usage.
So one could rewrite: 'The term 'Palestinian territories' is mainly one of Israeli usage, to denote what in International law, UN deliberations and general Western usage is referred to as 'The West Bank and Gaza', 'Occupied Palestinian territories' or 'Palestine'.
P.s. you are not exchanging lengthy essays: I am writing lengthy essays to reply minutely to every brief and to me incomprehensible objection you make in phrases or two or three words. I am justifying my choices, you are simply asserting your judgements by what strikes me as a vague and arbitrary claim of POV. So, please answer my earlier remarks and tell me why UN Documentation and ICJ rulings cannot be used, as I used them, to define the word 'Palestinian Territories'? You have asked Tiamut (sp?) and myself you explain ourselves here. All you have done is to revert and make a few quips. Nishidani 13:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
ps.The text you keep reverting to is POV-challenged, as the heading notes. You take my revision as POV (arguable. Let's argue it), but show a preference for the earlier text, which is labelled as 'neutrality disputed' and therefore subject to POV doubts. In reverting you are confirming an unreliable text against a text whose unreliability has yet to be formally challenged (except by these recent undocumented charges behind your reversions) This is not good Wiki practice, and you have interrupted another editor's attempt to mediate on the two. My revised text may be objectionable, but it is just as valid as the earlier one, and you show a bias in preferring the former one. These are texts that are under constant revision, and therefore this reverting practice is simply damaging to the collaborative work required. Regards Nishidani 13:40, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Nishidani - you have made extensive changes to a contentious topic, changes which were viewed by several editors as POV. It was sugegsted to you, and I repeat this suggestion, that you discuss the changes you wnat to intorduce, one by one, here on Talk, so we can evaluate their mertis.
I'll start with the very first sentence you wnat to include, which states:
The Palestinian territories is one of a number of designations for those portions of the British Mandate of Palestinewhich under the UN Partition Plan of 1947 were designated as constituting the territory of a future Arab state of Palestine,
This is simply false. As te harticle later describes, the term Palestinian territories is used to describe the Eastern parts of Jerusalem, but that territory was never 'designated as constituting the territory of a future Arab state of Palestine' by the UN partition plan. Th ecurrent article phrasing, which says 'The Palestinian territories is one of a number of designations for those portions of the British Mandate of Palestine captured and militarily occupied by Egypt and Jordan, and later, in the Six-Day War, by Israel.' is more accurate , and fully NPOV. Yours is not. Isarig 19:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
http://www.mideastweb.org/UNpartition.htm)
@nishidani
-- tickle me 08:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Please discuss any changes here. Further reverts will be reported as WP:3RR violations. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 23:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I can't say what documents are in the UN archives, but my parents own many records of "Palestinian folk songs" (i.e., pre-1948 Zionist folk songs).
Arise and Build, a 1960 history of the Labor Zionist youth movement Habonim, refers to " the Palestinian terrorist organization Irgun Zvai Leumi" ( Irgun). The publication of Arise and Build was 8 or 9 years before Golda Meir's "There were no such thing as Palestinians" comment.
If necessary, I will find dozens of references to the Jews of pre-1948 Palestine as Palestinians. There was never any question that they were Palestinians. The word sabra didn't come into use until the 1930s, and it was a Hebrew word. In English, the Jews of Palestine were Palestinians. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 23:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The UN has all the League of Nation documents in its archives. The term Palestinian was not used the phrase Jews in Palestine and Jews of Palestine, Arabs in Palestine and Arab of Palestine are the terms used repeatedly. I've gone from the Fisal letters to 1960 and there is no use of the term Palestinian for either Jews or Arabs in the UN docs. All the Palestine Post copies that are available on the net none again refer to Palestinians again in either context. The first use of the term Palestinian seems to have come in the early 60's and then when its use started to gain ground in use to refer to Arab refugees Golda then gave her quote about how she was a Palestinian. it is very difficult to prove a negative hence using "Bogus claim". nowhere have I every seen the claim substantiated.
If you do have any reference to its usage in the early 60's I would be very pleased to hear about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashley kennedy3 ( talk • contribs) 01:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC) PS how do I sign properly??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashley kennedy3 ( talk • contribs) 01:21, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The UN archives also has pre League of Nation Docs, principally McMahon-Hussein Correspondenceand Balfour Declaration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashley kennedy3 ( talk • contribs) 01:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The earliest use of the term Palestinian that I have found is 18 July 1966 used by Syrian Delegate to the UN. "Syria emphasized that its Government could not be held responsible for the activities of El-Fatah and El-Asefa, nor for the rise of Palestinian Arab organizations." Prior to that it is as with the Christian Science Monitor of 28 October 1966 they all say "Palestine Arab."
The link with Palestinian in referring to Jews in Palestine I believe has only come about from the Golda quote. Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 03:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
There reference to the Churchill white paper is to all the Citizens of Palestine not to one or other group but to the collective of both Arab and Jewish populations, it also occurs in one of the Royal Commissions as a collective for describing both groups together. When Arabs or Jews were mentioned as separate groups it was as Jews, Arabs, Jews of Palestine or Arabs of Palestine but never as Palestinians.
The cultural reference in "THE FOUNDING OF HABONIM (1930-1935") "It was decided to follow the Palestinian pattern and have a semi-formal gathering called pegisha". and your examples again refer to the practices found in the land of Palestine rather than to people. The Arabs had the semi-informal gatherings long before the Mandate period. Thanks for the sources, I shall go through them for provenance and context. 86.162.157.2 ( talk) 08:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC) Sorry I hadn't logged in, does anyone know what language the original was in? Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 09:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I have a sort of anecdote to add here. I have a reprint of a letter by Chaim Weizmann concerning a relative of mine, Prof. Yehuda Hirshberg. The letter is dated 20th January 1930, and is addressed to Professor Speyer at the University of Brussels, where Hirshberg was doing his PhD work, and in it Weizmann asks Speyer if he can do something to help Hirshberg financially. The letter begins with this: "I understand that at the university of Brussels there is a Palestinian boy, a Mr. Yehuda Hirshberg, who is supposed to be a brilliant chemist."
When I first read this it seemed quite amusing to me, the use of "Palestinian boy", but this was not unusual for that time. okedem ( talk) 12:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Hope that helps. Tiamut talk 13:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
That's more or less what I find. The Yishuv didn't seem to use the term Palestinian to refer to themselves and the term Palestinian was only used when referring to the whole population collectively.
On the "HaBonim Arise and Build" one of the articles is said to be dated 1946 yet I have it down as being written in 1985.
Engee Caller, “From Brooklyn to Palestine in 1939 (Kibbutz Kfar Blum, 1985) as quoted by David B. Ruderman and Guiseppe Veltri, eds. Cultural Intermediaries: Jewish Intellectuals in Early Modern Italy. Jewish Culture and Contexts. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2004. 293 pp.
So I'm a bit dubious about the provenance of the "HaBonim Arise and Build"
The SHIMON KAUFMAN, Los Angeles, 1958 can also be found at http://www.dpcamps.org/illegalimmigration.html So the claim rests on one article by Shimon Kaufman an American writing in 1958 about his experiences in 1947. No much to base a generalisation on?
The other articles had the context of borrowing from Arab culture and should be dismissed as references to Geographical location rather than to people. Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 15:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The Habonim Arise and Build shows up some funny pieces:
in “Builders and dreamers: Habonim Labor Zionist youth in North America” By J. J. Goldberg, Elliot King Illegal Immigration SHIMON KAUFMAN, Los Angeles, 1958 becomes: Cyprus 1947 “The British scarcely provided the Red Carpet Treatment SHIMON KAUFMAN, Los Angeles, 1958 And “Illegal Immigration” Laying the groundwork Akiva Skidell, Kfar Blum 1985
Looks like "HaBonim Arise and Build" has been tampered with. This should make for an interesting chapter. Thanks for the heads up on the "Habonim Arise and Build" Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 16:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
In HaBonim Arise and Build THE FOUNDING OF HABONIM SAADIA GELB, Kfar Blum. 1959
Becomes in “Builders and dreamers: Habonim Labor Zionist youth in North America” By J. J. Goldberg, Elliot King THE FOUNDING OF HABONIM Into the whirlwind of History SAADIA GELB, Kfar Blum. 1985
For HaBonim Arise and Build 1960 to have articles written in 1985 makes it well ahead of its time. I don't think HaBonim Arise and Build has a very good provenance. Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 17:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Arise and Build is a history of the first 25 years of Habonim, and it was published in 1960, the 25th anniversary of the founding. Perhaps Kfar Blum, a kibbutz largely established by Habonim members, reprinted the book in 1985, the 50th anniversary of Habonim's founding.
Builders and Dreamers is a different book that was written for the movement's 50th anniversary. It may have reprinted some of the essays from the older book.
Re: the publication of Arise and Build, see this citation in Essays in Modern Jewish History: A Tribute to Ben Halpern (note 5, page 307), this citation in Envisioning Israel: The Changing Ideals and Images of North American Jews (note 42, page 102), and this citation in American Jewish Women and the Zionist Enterprise (note 2, page 217). The book was brought out in 1961, one year following the 25th anniversary, not 1960. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 02:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
What was the original language of the "haBonim Arise and Build"?
Because in "Dreamers and Builders" it gives the essays as dated 1985, is this date of translation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.157.2 ( talk) 11:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry forgot to log in. Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 11:16, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The lead needs to be rewritten. In contemporary usage, Palestinian Territories means the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. That should be stated clearly right in the first sentence. No one uses the term to mean Areas A and B of the Oslo accords, as the second paragraph of the lead currently misleadingly suggests (Today, the designation typically refers to the territories governed in varying degrees by the Palestinian Authority (42% of the West Bank plus all of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip)). It should be noted that in the Declaration of Principles of the Oslo accords, it was agreed by both sides that the West Bank and the Gaza Strip consititute a "single territorial unit". It is true that Israel and the Palestinians disagree on exactly what territory is spanned by the West Bank. That should be mentioned also (and is).
Here are some sources that clearly use the term Palestinian Territories to mean the West Bank and Gaza:
The careful wording of the BBC profile (Palestinian Ministry of Information cites 5,970 sq km (2,305 sq miles) for West Bank territories and 365 sq km (141 sq miles) for Gaza) may be recommended as appropriate neutral wording for this article.
The whole bit in the article which claims that the term Palestinian Territories is used by "journalists to indicate lands where Palestinian people dwell" and "some Arab nationalists" is original research and plainly wrong, as the examples I've given above indicate.
Judea and Samaria does not have the same geographical meaning as Palestinian Territories. Judea and Samaria refers to the West Bank. Yesha does refer to the same geographical region as Palestinian Territories. A case can be made for merging that article into this one.
It needs to be mentioned, in the lead, that these territories are officially referred to as the Occupied Palestinian Territories by the United Nations. We can also mention in the lead that Israeli officials usually use the term "the territories", although as far as I'm aware the Israeli government has never made a formal objection to the term Palestinian Territories without Occupied in front. Sanguinalis 03:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
The term 'Palestinian' has its roots in the name of the ancient Philistines, a sea-faring people who settled in the Gaza area, adjacent to the Israelites. The Philistines were not Semites, did not speak a Semitic languague and were instead most likely of Mycenaean origin. Susequent to the full Roman conquest of ancient Israel and Judea, along with the Romans' 70 C.E. destruction of the Hebrew temple and capital in Jerusalem, and the expulsion of large numbers of the Jewish population, the Romans applied the Latin word "Palestine" to the entire area. This term was then periodically used in the Common Era to refer to the lands of Israel, Judea and Samaria, Gaza and the southern part of what was loosely termed Greater Syria. With the exception many smaller ethnic groups, including the indigenous Christians and Jews who continued to speak Aramean and Hebrew, respectively, Arabic became one of the dominant languages of the Greater Palestinian region after the Arabian Muslim conquests beginning in the 600-700s C.E.
This section and the one after it seem way too critical and biased against Israel. -- Erroneuz1 ( talk) 07:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Why was my edit rolled back? The current wording in the beginning is a biased POV as to what happened with the land. A Jew will say the 6 day war liberated Judea/Samaria and Gaza, while an Arab would say they captured those places. The only people who technically captured them were Egypt and Jordan. No sovereign country was ever conquered/captured. Relinquish is a word that plainly means let go of. The idea being that it's a neutral word for Egypt and Jordan no longer controlled the territories, and Israel now does. Further disputed territories makes most sense because if one group says one thing and another something else in which there is a dispute then they are disputed. Just because the whole world believes in one thing doesn't matter, the world isn't a democracy. -- Saxophonemn ( talk) 14:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
'The first charter for Israel was written down 3500 years ago in the Torah.'
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