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This "article or section is in need of attention from an expert on the subject" tag currently at the top of the entry is certainly justified. Some of the content of the article is so bad it reduced me to laughter! The most giggle-rousing bit was where it was claimed that (in the 13th century Divrigi mosque portals) the Turks invented Baroque architecture and them passed the style on to Italy! Meowy 13:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
"The Ottomans achieved the highest level architecture in their lands hence or since" is a rather imprecise statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.14.157.74 ( talk) 16:37, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
why is turkish architecture redirecting here? Turkish is not the same as ottoman, they had seljuks and they have modern turkish architecture (after the proclamation of the republic) as well. -- Timish ¤ Gül Bahçesi 20:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Respectfully strongly disagree re: merge - Would be similar to merging Moorish architecture with Spanish architecture. There is not even a direct [or indirect] categories link from it to Category:Spanish architecture, as historic 'Moorish' was centered in but extended beyond present day Spain-the Iberian Peninsula. So with Ottoman architecture in the Ottoman Empire extending beyond present day Turkey, and belonging only in Category:Turkish architecture by period but Not merged into Culture of Turkey survey article.
Turkey and its rich architectural heritage deserves an independent new Turkish architecture. or Timeline of Turkish architecture survey article briefly covering the many eras-styles in Category:Early Turkish Anatolian architecture and Category:Turkish architecture, freestanding from the Culture of Turkey and Ottoman architecture articles. Perhaps similar in format to Timeline of Italian architecture with {See|Neo-baroque}}... {See|Gothic Revival architecture}}... {See|Art Deco}}...etc links within it--?--? — and — A separate new focused Turkish modern and contemporary architecture article, similar to Italian modern and contemporary architecture, on 20th-21st century Turkish architecture.--?--?---cheers--- Look2See1 t a l k → 04:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
There should have been only one merger discussion instead of two parallel ones. In any case both this and the merger discussion at Culture of Turkey have resulted in consensus not to merge, and have been closed. -- Elekhh ( talk) 07:24, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Contemporary (post-1923) Turkish Architecture categorized as 1st National, 2nd National etc. Onur T 17:40, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
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I am going to delete this section. I don't think it is necessarily bad to have a section about Ottoman Paradise gardens, but this section is mostly not specific to Ottomans. I think such a section fits better into the Islamic architechture wikipedia page. Alternatively it could be written more like a encyclopedia entry and reincluded, with more specifics to the Ottomans.
For example, the section starts off with a quote from the Quran, and proceeds to talk about how throughout the Muslim world mosques often have gardens next door, and these gardens fit with the content of the Quran. This discussion continues for several paragraphs.
In an article on Ottoman architecture, it would suffice to say that gardens are often built next to mosques throughout the Muslim world, and then link to the Islamic architecture page. Only the distinctive features of Ottoman gardens should then be included here. Again, I don't necessarily think there should not be a section on paradise gardens -- I just think it should focus on Ottomans rather than general Paradise gardens. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Veryshuai ( talk • contribs) 05:58, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
A style doesn't start & end like a military campaign. For instance "Baroque period (1757–1808)": who gave the starting shot for Baroque influence in 1757, and who stopped the race under threat of capital punishment in 1808 (NOT 1809 or 1810, may Allah forbid)? Can somebody who's well-versed in the topic please do something about it? Thanks, it's very important for the history of architecture in a lot of countries which emerged from the Ottoman Empire. Have a great year, Arminden ( talk) 18:57, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Ottoman Baroque is a style that has left its trace all over the former empire. It has its characteristics, representative architects & monuments, etc. It easily deserves its own article. There is a large monograph on the topic, Ünver Rüstem, Ottoman Baroque: The Architectural Refashioning of Eighteenth-Century Istanbul (2019) and probably much more in Turkish. Don't forget Ottoman Rococo, which is another term I came across and must be dealt with in this context, clarifying what's specific about it within Ottoman Baroque and in relation to European Rococo. I'm looking forward to see what's coming our way here. Arminden ( talk) 20:23, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
I have removed the following completely unsourced paragraph from the lead to be discussed here.
Ottoman architecture has a lot of interesting aspects, which should be presented concisely in the lead, along with its main achievements, but this is unbearably triumphalistic cultural nationalism - and factually wrong, as the Ottoman happened to inherit a territory heavy with artistic traditions, which have heavily influenced and actually have given birth to Ottoman art, as the (sourced) parts in the lead & article do show.
There are excellent scholars who have written with respect and knowledge about Ottoman architecture in the context of classical, Islamic, and European architecture. We need a summary of such a comment, not this.
Anyway, here is the composition "Why are we the best and have always been", which I've had the guts to remove from the lead:
"The Ottomans achieved the highest level architecture in their lands hence or since. [Says who? What about the ancient Greeks & Byzantines?] They mastered the technique of building vast inner spaces confined by seemingly weightless yet massive domes, [Hagia Sophia...?] and achieving perfect harmony between inner and outer spaces, as well as articulated light and shadow. Islamic religious architecture which until then consisted of simple buildings with extensive decorations, was transformed by the Ottomans through a dynamic architectural vocabulary of vaults, domes, semi-domes and columns. The mosque was transformed from being a cramped and dark chamber with arabesque-covered walls into a sanctuary of aesthetic and technical balance, refined elegance and a hint of heavenly transcendence." [Says who? What about the Umayyads, to mention just the best known Islamic precursors?]
Enjoy. Arminden ( talk) 20:31, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
the aforementioned mosque is called masjid e Al Shaikh Al Hafiz Ameen bin A.Rehman Syed Tariq Haider ( talk) 12:47, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
I've more or less finished some major expansions of the Early and Classical period sections. I'll continue to expand and/or revise sections, but I'll probably slow down for now, so this seems like a good time to make a few notes:
Any other feedback is also welcome. I hope the expansions are at least helpful in laying down foundations for a developed article. Cheers, R Prazeres ( talk) 23:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
I've created a new Early Ottoman architecture page to host the content of the "Early Ottoman period" section and allow for further expansion of related topics there instead of here. I believe the new page is needed for the sake of managing this page's length but it's worth noting again that there's no exact definition of "Early Ottoman architecture", it's more of a chronological label, so I was wary of how to define the scope of the new article. The label certainly applies up to the 15th century, but some authors treat pre-1453 and post-1453 architecture in different chapters or sections (for example). Still, as already discussed and cited in the main article here, the Classical period is generally considered to begin with Sinan, and the Bayezid II Mosque is often cited as the last stage before Sinan. So I figured the simplest and most useful option was to set the new article's scope as including everything up to Bayezid II's time (i.e. everything before the Classical period), which is how this article is currently divided too.
With that in mind, the lead of the new page currently starts with: "Early Ottoman architecture corresponds to the period of Ottoman architecture roughly up to the 15th century. This article covers the history of Ottoman architecture up to the end of Bayezid II's reign (r. 1447–1512), prior to the advent of what is generally considered "classical" Ottoman architecture in the 16th century.", followed by a footnote explaining that some authors divide their discussion of the period in different ways. Maybe this wording is fine, but if anyone can think of a better one, I'd welcome suggestions.
Lastly: now that this new page exists I will cut some of the less essential content from the "Early Ottoman period" section in this article (e.g. info on mosques built by viziers and other minor points), along with some of the images. The full content can still be found at the new page. R Prazeres ( talk) 01:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
The categories are a mess but it looks like they have been holding photo walks in Algiers. There are quite a few new images in categories for the casbah, the citadel and the Palace of the bey. Doublecheck the captions, I was having trouble with that at one point. Elinruby ( talk) 22:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Apparently we are not using these at Regency of Algiers, ity you can good if not do as you see fit:
And:
Elinruby ( talk) 10:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Short explanation: everything in the two sections called "19th-century eclecticism and other styles" and the "First National Architectural Movement (early 20th century)" will be copied to a new article called (provisionally) " Ottoman architecture in the 19th–20th centuries". This is partly in preparation for WP:SUMMARYSTYLE to reduce this article's length.
Long explanation: Each of the historical periods covered in the article already has its own main article (see previous discussions above), except for the 19th century section. I've been considering how to define and name a new article for that section and I think the easiest solution for now is to create it as " Ottoman architecture in the 19th–20th centuries", thus covering essentially everything after the Baroque style. Although there is a clear shift that happens in the first half of the 19th century, it does not involve a single style and there is no conventional name for this phase of Ottoman architecture history, so it needs to be a descriptive title. The trends of the late 19th century also continue into the early 20th century (the last Ottoman decades), hence why both centuries need to be mentioned. Likewise, the First national architectural movement overlaps with and emerges directly from the other architectural trends of that time, so I propose to treat that as a subtopic of this period (i.e. one of several styles that occur), as there's no clear and principled way to further subdivide this period, to my knowledge.
After this is done (assuming there are no objections), I plan to address the WP:LENGTH of the article (currently at 20545 words) by condensing each of the sections that have their own articles, thus introducing WP:SUMMARYSTYLE in this overview article. I'll make a new talk page section when I'm ready to do that, so that editors have a place to discuss that process as needed. R Prazeres ( talk) 22:32, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
As I mentioned above, one of the next steps to improve the article is to reduce its length (by at least half; see WP:LENGTH). Relevant subarticles for each period have now been created (see previous talk page sections above), so all of that content, plus some extra detail, can now be found at: Early Ottoman architecture, Classical Ottoman architecture, Tulip Period architecture, Ottoman Baroque architecture, and Ottoman architecture in the 19th–20th centuries. So my plan is to go through each of the corresponding sections in this article and condense them to perhaps just 3-4 paragraphs and a few images each, focusing on general developments and maybe mentioning the most strictly important monuments only. I think that'll be enough, but we can condense further if needed. That will also free up some space for this article to potentially cover other general subtopics relevant to Ottoman architectural history in the future.
I won't be starting right away, so feel free to bring any concerns or suggestions about this in the meantime. R Prazeres ( talk) 03:43, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
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This "article or section is in need of attention from an expert on the subject" tag currently at the top of the entry is certainly justified. Some of the content of the article is so bad it reduced me to laughter! The most giggle-rousing bit was where it was claimed that (in the 13th century Divrigi mosque portals) the Turks invented Baroque architecture and them passed the style on to Italy! Meowy 13:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
"The Ottomans achieved the highest level architecture in their lands hence or since" is a rather imprecise statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.14.157.74 ( talk) 16:37, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
why is turkish architecture redirecting here? Turkish is not the same as ottoman, they had seljuks and they have modern turkish architecture (after the proclamation of the republic) as well. -- Timish ¤ Gül Bahçesi 20:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Respectfully strongly disagree re: merge - Would be similar to merging Moorish architecture with Spanish architecture. There is not even a direct [or indirect] categories link from it to Category:Spanish architecture, as historic 'Moorish' was centered in but extended beyond present day Spain-the Iberian Peninsula. So with Ottoman architecture in the Ottoman Empire extending beyond present day Turkey, and belonging only in Category:Turkish architecture by period but Not merged into Culture of Turkey survey article.
Turkey and its rich architectural heritage deserves an independent new Turkish architecture. or Timeline of Turkish architecture survey article briefly covering the many eras-styles in Category:Early Turkish Anatolian architecture and Category:Turkish architecture, freestanding from the Culture of Turkey and Ottoman architecture articles. Perhaps similar in format to Timeline of Italian architecture with {See|Neo-baroque}}... {See|Gothic Revival architecture}}... {See|Art Deco}}...etc links within it--?--? — and — A separate new focused Turkish modern and contemporary architecture article, similar to Italian modern and contemporary architecture, on 20th-21st century Turkish architecture.--?--?---cheers--- Look2See1 t a l k → 04:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
There should have been only one merger discussion instead of two parallel ones. In any case both this and the merger discussion at Culture of Turkey have resulted in consensus not to merge, and have been closed. -- Elekhh ( talk) 07:24, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Contemporary (post-1923) Turkish Architecture categorized as 1st National, 2nd National etc. Onur T 17:40, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
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Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Ahmet Afif Pascha Yali.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 09:51, 24 March 2012 (UTC) |
I am going to delete this section. I don't think it is necessarily bad to have a section about Ottoman Paradise gardens, but this section is mostly not specific to Ottomans. I think such a section fits better into the Islamic architechture wikipedia page. Alternatively it could be written more like a encyclopedia entry and reincluded, with more specifics to the Ottomans.
For example, the section starts off with a quote from the Quran, and proceeds to talk about how throughout the Muslim world mosques often have gardens next door, and these gardens fit with the content of the Quran. This discussion continues for several paragraphs.
In an article on Ottoman architecture, it would suffice to say that gardens are often built next to mosques throughout the Muslim world, and then link to the Islamic architecture page. Only the distinctive features of Ottoman gardens should then be included here. Again, I don't necessarily think there should not be a section on paradise gardens -- I just think it should focus on Ottomans rather than general Paradise gardens. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Veryshuai ( talk • contribs) 05:58, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
A style doesn't start & end like a military campaign. For instance "Baroque period (1757–1808)": who gave the starting shot for Baroque influence in 1757, and who stopped the race under threat of capital punishment in 1808 (NOT 1809 or 1810, may Allah forbid)? Can somebody who's well-versed in the topic please do something about it? Thanks, it's very important for the history of architecture in a lot of countries which emerged from the Ottoman Empire. Have a great year, Arminden ( talk) 18:57, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
Ottoman Baroque is a style that has left its trace all over the former empire. It has its characteristics, representative architects & monuments, etc. It easily deserves its own article. There is a large monograph on the topic, Ünver Rüstem, Ottoman Baroque: The Architectural Refashioning of Eighteenth-Century Istanbul (2019) and probably much more in Turkish. Don't forget Ottoman Rococo, which is another term I came across and must be dealt with in this context, clarifying what's specific about it within Ottoman Baroque and in relation to European Rococo. I'm looking forward to see what's coming our way here. Arminden ( talk) 20:23, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
I have removed the following completely unsourced paragraph from the lead to be discussed here.
Ottoman architecture has a lot of interesting aspects, which should be presented concisely in the lead, along with its main achievements, but this is unbearably triumphalistic cultural nationalism - and factually wrong, as the Ottoman happened to inherit a territory heavy with artistic traditions, which have heavily influenced and actually have given birth to Ottoman art, as the (sourced) parts in the lead & article do show.
There are excellent scholars who have written with respect and knowledge about Ottoman architecture in the context of classical, Islamic, and European architecture. We need a summary of such a comment, not this.
Anyway, here is the composition "Why are we the best and have always been", which I've had the guts to remove from the lead:
"The Ottomans achieved the highest level architecture in their lands hence or since. [Says who? What about the ancient Greeks & Byzantines?] They mastered the technique of building vast inner spaces confined by seemingly weightless yet massive domes, [Hagia Sophia...?] and achieving perfect harmony between inner and outer spaces, as well as articulated light and shadow. Islamic religious architecture which until then consisted of simple buildings with extensive decorations, was transformed by the Ottomans through a dynamic architectural vocabulary of vaults, domes, semi-domes and columns. The mosque was transformed from being a cramped and dark chamber with arabesque-covered walls into a sanctuary of aesthetic and technical balance, refined elegance and a hint of heavenly transcendence." [Says who? What about the Umayyads, to mention just the best known Islamic precursors?]
Enjoy. Arminden ( talk) 20:31, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
the aforementioned mosque is called masjid e Al Shaikh Al Hafiz Ameen bin A.Rehman Syed Tariq Haider ( talk) 12:47, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
I've more or less finished some major expansions of the Early and Classical period sections. I'll continue to expand and/or revise sections, but I'll probably slow down for now, so this seems like a good time to make a few notes:
Any other feedback is also welcome. I hope the expansions are at least helpful in laying down foundations for a developed article. Cheers, R Prazeres ( talk) 23:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
I've created a new Early Ottoman architecture page to host the content of the "Early Ottoman period" section and allow for further expansion of related topics there instead of here. I believe the new page is needed for the sake of managing this page's length but it's worth noting again that there's no exact definition of "Early Ottoman architecture", it's more of a chronological label, so I was wary of how to define the scope of the new article. The label certainly applies up to the 15th century, but some authors treat pre-1453 and post-1453 architecture in different chapters or sections (for example). Still, as already discussed and cited in the main article here, the Classical period is generally considered to begin with Sinan, and the Bayezid II Mosque is often cited as the last stage before Sinan. So I figured the simplest and most useful option was to set the new article's scope as including everything up to Bayezid II's time (i.e. everything before the Classical period), which is how this article is currently divided too.
With that in mind, the lead of the new page currently starts with: "Early Ottoman architecture corresponds to the period of Ottoman architecture roughly up to the 15th century. This article covers the history of Ottoman architecture up to the end of Bayezid II's reign (r. 1447–1512), prior to the advent of what is generally considered "classical" Ottoman architecture in the 16th century.", followed by a footnote explaining that some authors divide their discussion of the period in different ways. Maybe this wording is fine, but if anyone can think of a better one, I'd welcome suggestions.
Lastly: now that this new page exists I will cut some of the less essential content from the "Early Ottoman period" section in this article (e.g. info on mosques built by viziers and other minor points), along with some of the images. The full content can still be found at the new page. R Prazeres ( talk) 01:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
The categories are a mess but it looks like they have been holding photo walks in Algiers. There are quite a few new images in categories for the casbah, the citadel and the Palace of the bey. Doublecheck the captions, I was having trouble with that at one point. Elinruby ( talk) 22:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Apparently we are not using these at Regency of Algiers, ity you can good if not do as you see fit:
And:
Elinruby ( talk) 10:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Short explanation: everything in the two sections called "19th-century eclecticism and other styles" and the "First National Architectural Movement (early 20th century)" will be copied to a new article called (provisionally) " Ottoman architecture in the 19th–20th centuries". This is partly in preparation for WP:SUMMARYSTYLE to reduce this article's length.
Long explanation: Each of the historical periods covered in the article already has its own main article (see previous discussions above), except for the 19th century section. I've been considering how to define and name a new article for that section and I think the easiest solution for now is to create it as " Ottoman architecture in the 19th–20th centuries", thus covering essentially everything after the Baroque style. Although there is a clear shift that happens in the first half of the 19th century, it does not involve a single style and there is no conventional name for this phase of Ottoman architecture history, so it needs to be a descriptive title. The trends of the late 19th century also continue into the early 20th century (the last Ottoman decades), hence why both centuries need to be mentioned. Likewise, the First national architectural movement overlaps with and emerges directly from the other architectural trends of that time, so I propose to treat that as a subtopic of this period (i.e. one of several styles that occur), as there's no clear and principled way to further subdivide this period, to my knowledge.
After this is done (assuming there are no objections), I plan to address the WP:LENGTH of the article (currently at 20545 words) by condensing each of the sections that have their own articles, thus introducing WP:SUMMARYSTYLE in this overview article. I'll make a new talk page section when I'm ready to do that, so that editors have a place to discuss that process as needed. R Prazeres ( talk) 22:32, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
As I mentioned above, one of the next steps to improve the article is to reduce its length (by at least half; see WP:LENGTH). Relevant subarticles for each period have now been created (see previous talk page sections above), so all of that content, plus some extra detail, can now be found at: Early Ottoman architecture, Classical Ottoman architecture, Tulip Period architecture, Ottoman Baroque architecture, and Ottoman architecture in the 19th–20th centuries. So my plan is to go through each of the corresponding sections in this article and condense them to perhaps just 3-4 paragraphs and a few images each, focusing on general developments and maybe mentioning the most strictly important monuments only. I think that'll be enough, but we can condense further if needed. That will also free up some space for this article to potentially cover other general subtopics relevant to Ottoman architectural history in the future.
I won't be starting right away, so feel free to bring any concerns or suggestions about this in the meantime. R Prazeres ( talk) 03:43, 28 April 2024 (UTC)