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There seems equal support for both years on Google. Who can tell us which is the correct date, and why?
U.S. Passport application (hand written) dated January 31, 1874, Oscar Hammerstein, born May 8, 1846 in Germany U.S. Passport Applications, 1795-1925 Ancestry.com John F. Barlow ( talk) 21:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
The Concise Oxford Dictionary; Hammerstein, Oscar; b Stettin 8 May, 1846; d New York; 1 August, 1919 The Concise Oxford Dictionary 1996 John F. Barlow ( talk) 21:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
In his memoir The Romance of an Emigrant Boy, which appeared in an 1898 issue of Cosmopolitan Magazine, Hammerstein states he was born in 1846 in Berlin. Cosmopolitan Magazine; vol. 25; May –October, 1898; pg. 571
From U. S. Naturalization and Passport records it would appear he changed his name from Otto Hammerstein to Oscar Hammerstein around January, 1874. Two passports were issued, the first to Otto in March, 1873, the second to Oscar in January, 1874. Both were born on May 8, 1846, both were 5' 5" and wore a mustache, both were N.Y.C. merchants and both used Adolph Blau (Adolf Blau on Otto's application) as a witness on their U. S. citizenship applications. The single difference between the two; Otto's birthplace was listed as Prussia and Oscar's as Germany. Perhaps Oscar Hammerstein wanted to distance his name from that of the Prussian leader Otto von Bismark. John F. Barlow ( talk) 05:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Regardless of what the description in the Times may have been, or the pretensions of the composer, "Santa Maria" is in today's terms a musical; at best an operetta, not an opera. Similarly Hammerstein's previous operetta, the Kohinoor. Thus the accuracy of the article in its current form is disputed. - Nunh-huh 03:03, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I have problems with both points. First, the biographies of the original performers has absolutely nothing to do with determining genre. Further, it is not unusual for singers to specialize in a particular area of opera. These singers happened to specialize in English language operetta just like other opera singers in the past may have specialized in areas like singspiel or opéra comique. Second, operetta is a type of opera just like a dog is a type of animal. So calling an operetta an opera is not incorrect just like calling a dog an animal is not incorrect. Operetta is just as much a part of opera as the Grand Operas and verismo operas you mentioned above. Notice that operetta is included in this template:
Singingdaisies ( talk) 06:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
It's not "my theory" or a theory at all. This is the basic structure of opera classification by genre that you'll find used consistantly throughout all scholarly publications on opera (including Grove and Oxford). You are correct that opera is a form a drama; a fact which you will find in any encyclopedic definition of the art form (usually in the first sentence). I agree that specific classifications are better when discussing individual works. In this case the specific classification is a " comic opera" (a term often interchanged with operetta) per the sources. As for singers moving between the artforms, it happens all the time. I can give you dozens upon dozens of examples of singers who have done work in both operas and musicals. Also since an operetta is an opera, technically anyone singing in an operetta is an "opera singer". The problem seems to me not with my thinking but with your prejudice. For some reason you are creating a false seperation between opera and operetta. That is like trying to make blue not a color. You have one narrow idea of what opera is when really it is so much more. Singingdaisies ( talk) 07:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
[Moving left] You can hardly dispute what I didn't say: what I said was "operetta" and "opera" are not synonyms. And they aren't. So now you have decided that the category you want applied to Oscar Hammerstein is "Comic Opera composers" and not "Opera composers", and the name you want to give the "Santa Maria" article is "Santa Maria (comic opera)" and not "Santa Maria (opera)"? - Nunh-huh 21:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
[Moving left] No, I get it; it's you who don't seem to. To describe a comic opera simply as an opera is misleading, and to intentionally exclude or obscure information other than "it's an opera" is not the job of an encyclopedia. SSilvers comments seem well-informed; I note that nowhere does he call Santa Maria an "opera" rather than an operetta or comic opera, and that he opines that it belongs in the musical comedy project. - Nunh-huh 22:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Hello! I see that you people are dancing very enthusiastically on the head of a pin. Comic operas and operettas in Wikipedia are named (opera). This is a naming convention that the WP:OPERA project has followed for about three years. See Dorothy (opera), Patience (opera) etc. The debate you are having seems pointless until somebody goes to the library, as I suggested at the Santa Maria talk page, to look up what Ganzl, Traubner, Kenrick or the other theatre writers call the work. I don't know whether it's an opera or a musical, because I don't have the score. However, I do know that Kosboot is wrong in saying that the word "musical" had not been invented in 1896. Not only had it been invented by the very early 1890s, but several of the early musical comedy blockbuster hits had already played on Broadway, as I noted on the Santa Maria talk page. Why is this discussion being carried on in multiple places? Please move it back to the Santa Maria talk page, which I am watching. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 00:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
What about a compromise: Call Santa Maria Santa Maria (opera) unless we find out that it was really a musical, but change Hammerstein's cat to American musical theatre composers, since he wrote both a comic opera/operetta and a musical? Note that Sigmud Romberg is also categorized as a musical theatre composer. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 00:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
There are newspaper reports ("Lure of the Footlights as Felt by a Manager's Daughter," New York Times, May 31, 1908) that refer to Oscar's daughter, Stella. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.247.189 ( talk) 21:47, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
According to the memoirs of the French actress Georgette Leblanc, Hammerstein’s widow committed suicide circa 1920, depressed by the financial ruin Oscar left on his death. I believe this must have been Emma Hammerstein. See G. Leblanc, La Machine à Courage (1947), p. 43. - Wwallacee ( talk) 17:36, 19 February 2018 (UTC) Wwallacee ( talk) 17:36, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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There seems equal support for both years on Google. Who can tell us which is the correct date, and why?
U.S. Passport application (hand written) dated January 31, 1874, Oscar Hammerstein, born May 8, 1846 in Germany U.S. Passport Applications, 1795-1925 Ancestry.com John F. Barlow ( talk) 21:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
The Concise Oxford Dictionary; Hammerstein, Oscar; b Stettin 8 May, 1846; d New York; 1 August, 1919 The Concise Oxford Dictionary 1996 John F. Barlow ( talk) 21:51, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
In his memoir The Romance of an Emigrant Boy, which appeared in an 1898 issue of Cosmopolitan Magazine, Hammerstein states he was born in 1846 in Berlin. Cosmopolitan Magazine; vol. 25; May –October, 1898; pg. 571
From U. S. Naturalization and Passport records it would appear he changed his name from Otto Hammerstein to Oscar Hammerstein around January, 1874. Two passports were issued, the first to Otto in March, 1873, the second to Oscar in January, 1874. Both were born on May 8, 1846, both were 5' 5" and wore a mustache, both were N.Y.C. merchants and both used Adolph Blau (Adolf Blau on Otto's application) as a witness on their U. S. citizenship applications. The single difference between the two; Otto's birthplace was listed as Prussia and Oscar's as Germany. Perhaps Oscar Hammerstein wanted to distance his name from that of the Prussian leader Otto von Bismark. John F. Barlow ( talk) 05:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Regardless of what the description in the Times may have been, or the pretensions of the composer, "Santa Maria" is in today's terms a musical; at best an operetta, not an opera. Similarly Hammerstein's previous operetta, the Kohinoor. Thus the accuracy of the article in its current form is disputed. - Nunh-huh 03:03, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I have problems with both points. First, the biographies of the original performers has absolutely nothing to do with determining genre. Further, it is not unusual for singers to specialize in a particular area of opera. These singers happened to specialize in English language operetta just like other opera singers in the past may have specialized in areas like singspiel or opéra comique. Second, operetta is a type of opera just like a dog is a type of animal. So calling an operetta an opera is not incorrect just like calling a dog an animal is not incorrect. Operetta is just as much a part of opera as the Grand Operas and verismo operas you mentioned above. Notice that operetta is included in this template:
Singingdaisies ( talk) 06:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
It's not "my theory" or a theory at all. This is the basic structure of opera classification by genre that you'll find used consistantly throughout all scholarly publications on opera (including Grove and Oxford). You are correct that opera is a form a drama; a fact which you will find in any encyclopedic definition of the art form (usually in the first sentence). I agree that specific classifications are better when discussing individual works. In this case the specific classification is a " comic opera" (a term often interchanged with operetta) per the sources. As for singers moving between the artforms, it happens all the time. I can give you dozens upon dozens of examples of singers who have done work in both operas and musicals. Also since an operetta is an opera, technically anyone singing in an operetta is an "opera singer". The problem seems to me not with my thinking but with your prejudice. For some reason you are creating a false seperation between opera and operetta. That is like trying to make blue not a color. You have one narrow idea of what opera is when really it is so much more. Singingdaisies ( talk) 07:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
[Moving left] You can hardly dispute what I didn't say: what I said was "operetta" and "opera" are not synonyms. And they aren't. So now you have decided that the category you want applied to Oscar Hammerstein is "Comic Opera composers" and not "Opera composers", and the name you want to give the "Santa Maria" article is "Santa Maria (comic opera)" and not "Santa Maria (opera)"? - Nunh-huh 21:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
[Moving left] No, I get it; it's you who don't seem to. To describe a comic opera simply as an opera is misleading, and to intentionally exclude or obscure information other than "it's an opera" is not the job of an encyclopedia. SSilvers comments seem well-informed; I note that nowhere does he call Santa Maria an "opera" rather than an operetta or comic opera, and that he opines that it belongs in the musical comedy project. - Nunh-huh 22:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Hello! I see that you people are dancing very enthusiastically on the head of a pin. Comic operas and operettas in Wikipedia are named (opera). This is a naming convention that the WP:OPERA project has followed for about three years. See Dorothy (opera), Patience (opera) etc. The debate you are having seems pointless until somebody goes to the library, as I suggested at the Santa Maria talk page, to look up what Ganzl, Traubner, Kenrick or the other theatre writers call the work. I don't know whether it's an opera or a musical, because I don't have the score. However, I do know that Kosboot is wrong in saying that the word "musical" had not been invented in 1896. Not only had it been invented by the very early 1890s, but several of the early musical comedy blockbuster hits had already played on Broadway, as I noted on the Santa Maria talk page. Why is this discussion being carried on in multiple places? Please move it back to the Santa Maria talk page, which I am watching. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 00:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
What about a compromise: Call Santa Maria Santa Maria (opera) unless we find out that it was really a musical, but change Hammerstein's cat to American musical theatre composers, since he wrote both a comic opera/operetta and a musical? Note that Sigmud Romberg is also categorized as a musical theatre composer. -- Ssilvers ( talk) 00:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
There are newspaper reports ("Lure of the Footlights as Felt by a Manager's Daughter," New York Times, May 31, 1908) that refer to Oscar's daughter, Stella. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.247.189 ( talk) 21:47, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
According to the memoirs of the French actress Georgette Leblanc, Hammerstein’s widow committed suicide circa 1920, depressed by the financial ruin Oscar left on his death. I believe this must have been Emma Hammerstein. See G. Leblanc, La Machine à Courage (1947), p. 43. - Wwallacee ( talk) 17:36, 19 February 2018 (UTC) Wwallacee ( talk) 17:36, 19 February 2018 (UTC)