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If you keep unconstructive editing, I will add also several scholars that consider the subject of this article an Illyrian harbor or an Illyrian city, like the sources you use in Amantia. Since you don't accept an Illyrian descriprion of Amantia into the lead, then I could ask for the removal of Ancient Greek from Oricum as well. Both the cities are clearly described in ancient sources, Amantia as Illyrian and Oricum as Greek. As I told you several times, double standards are not allowed, make your choice. – Βατο ( talk) 08:34, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
"Greek polis" will go. You know full well this was Euboean Greek colony, and sources only refer to it as "Illyrian" because of the location. The inhabitants were Greek and spoke Greek, there is nothing "Illyrian" about it. And there is no such thing as Roman protectorate of Illyricum, there is only Illyricum (Roman province) and the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum. This map clearly shows it was in Epirus Vetus, part of the province of Macedonia.
If you keep unconstructive editing, I will add also several scholars
Otherwise I will add many top notch scholars that consider it an Illyrian city. Hernandez 2010, one of the top sources on this topic, clearly considers Oricum a Greek colonial foundation:
rather they were southern Greek colonial foundations. These poleis were generally situated along the coast, at locations such as Ambracia, Amphilochian Argos, Buchetium, Buthrotum, Oricum, and Thronium.As for Epirus Nova, yes Shpuza considers it in Epirus Nova, but nowhere does he mention that Epirus Nova was
also called Illyris. He only says that Epirus Nova was part of Macedonia. You don't have a single source for
Greek colonists might well have been mixed with the local population., nothing, just speculation and WP:OR. What "local Illyrians"? The site was uninhabited. The map of the protectorate you posted, shows a protectorate, but does not call it "Illyricum". You don't have a single source that establishes the existence of a Roman protectorate of Illyricum. Khirurg ( talk) 16:42, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
"As a consequence, in 229 there followed a rapid war, which the Romans won. Queen Teuta, Agron's widow, was forced to retreat to the Bay of Kotor. In 228, the Romans imposed a protectorate on the islands of Issa (Vis) and Corfu, and on the cities of Epidamnos (Durrës), Apollonia (present-day Pojani) and Oricum (Orikum) in the bay of Vlorë. This protectorate coincided with the use of the Roman concept of Illyricum."The city of Oricum is considered a Greek foundation (different from the particular Euboean tradition, which would date back much earlier than the 6th century BC), but that does not imply that the context preceding the Greek colony/polis should be removed from the first sentence. – Βατο ( talk) 17:05, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
By the middle of the first century the Romans were using the name Illyricum for their Adriatic territories north of the Drin, south of which the province Macedonia began., and even then it referred only to the area in northern Albania. To use it to describe a protectorate of the 3rd century BC is anachronistic. I see your point about "Illyrian/Epirote", but there needs to be some kind of amendment to "Illyrian harbor". The area was uninhabited prior to the 6th century BC, which is when the colony was founded since that is the tail end of the age of Greek colonization. Many authors also place it in Epirus no matter the time period, so "Illyrian harbor" is POV. It has to change, something like "a harbor between Illyria and Epirus". Khirurg ( talk) 18:23, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
"Illyricum" began to be used only after the mid-1st century BC, that's your completely incorrect interpretation. Illyricum was the Latin term for Illyria, not just the term for the Province that was established in Imperial times. Also, Wilkes' includes Oricum in the "Illyrian Lands" map (Map 1). As stated by the sources, before the Greek colony it was an Illyrian port, and it should be explained in the first sentence. Before Dyrrhachium, it was the eastern principal harbor of the main sea route linking southern Illyrians with Iapygia. Mentioning "Illyrian harbor" is as relevant as mentioning that it was a Greek city in later times. – Βατο ( talk) 19:01, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Illyricum was the Latin term for Illyria, not just the term for the Province that was established in Imperial times.is unsourced and WP:OR. Khirurg ( talk) 20:48, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Illyricum was the Latin term for Illyria, not just the term for the Province that was established in Imperial times.is unsourced and WP:OR." WP:Competence is required. Read the reliable sources, I am not arguing about that anymore.
"Drawing upon earlier written sources about sailing voyages (periploi), the Periplous of Pseudo-Skylax (28–33) traces the coast of the Mediterranean and purports to be a “circumnavigation of the inhabited world”. The text was composed in the third quarter of the 4th century B.C. The description of Epeiros moves southward along the Adriatic and Ionian Seas in the direction of mainland Greece. It appears to represent Epeiros in the years ca. 380–360 B.C. In Illyria, Epidamnos and Apollonia are listed as Greek cities (πόλεις Ἑλληνίδες). Orikos is identified as a polis located within the territory of an Illyrian city, Amantia. After Illyria, the text lists Chaonia."Especially after this edit, it clearly illustrates your usage of double standards. Btw, the Euboean founding myth and the reason of its construction will be restored, no reason to remove it. Despite the fact that so far it appears to be a non-historical tradition, it evidently played a certain role in the history and culture of the city. – Βατο ( talk) 22:00, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
"since according to you it is "rejected"I did not say it, I said that "it is almost rejected in current scholarship". Despite that, my opinion is not relevant for it, it was made in another context. Scholars report and discuss the ancient tradition because it is relevant for the subject of the article, despite its dubious historicity, hence it can be included into the lede. – Βατο ( talk) 22:47, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Scholars report and discuss the ancient tradition because it is relevant for the subject of the article: Not really. For instance Hernandez doesn't mention is anywhere in his entire dissertation. Khirurg ( talk) 03:33, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
"Orikos, or Orikon (at modern Orikumi) is little known beyond having been a Euboean foundation.". It is the most renowned ancient description concerning the polis of Orikos, its existence in ancient literature and the reason of its construction are worth a mention into the lede. – Βατο ( talk) 08:23, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
"Cette po-sition frontalière a probablement occasionné des malentendus parmi les auteurs anciens sur son po-sitionnement en Illyrie ou en Épire. Cependant, tous ceux qui connaissent la géographie imaginent mal que le territoire d' Épire puisse aller au-delà des Monts Cérauniens, qui représentent une frontière naturelle difficilement franchissable. D'après les données à notre disposition, Orikos n'a fait partie de l'Épire que pendant le Royaume de Pyrrhos au début du 3e siècle avant J.C."["This border position probably caused misunderstandings among ancient authors about its position in Illyria or Epirus. However, anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross. According to the data at our disposal, Orikos was only part of Epirus during the Kingdom of Pyrrhos at the beginning of the 3rd century BC.6"].
Ὤρικος, πόλις ἐν τῷ Ἰονίῳ κόλπῳ. Ἑκαταῖος λιμένα καλεῖ Ἠπείρου τὸν Ὤρικον ἐν τῇ Εὐρώπῃ "μετὰ δὲ Βουθρωτὸς πόλις, μετὰ δὲ Ὤρικος λιμήν
Alexikoua (
talk)
21:14, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Ὤρικος, πόλις ἐν τῷ Ἰονίῳ κόλπῳ. Ἑκαταῖος λιμένα καλεῖ Ἠπείρου τὸν Ὤρικον ἐν τῇ Εὐρώπῃ "μετὰ δὲ Βουθρωτὸς πόλις, μετὰ δὲ Ὤρικος λιμήν
Alexikoua (
talk)
23:02, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
"Cette po-sition frontalière a probablement occasionné des malentendus parmi les auteurs anciens sur son po-sitionnement en Illyrie ou en Épire. Cependant, tous ceux qui connaissent la géographie imaginent mal que le territoire d' Épire puisse aller au-delà des Monts Cérauniens, qui représentent une frontière naturelle difficilement franchissable. D'après les données à notre disposition, Orikos n'a fait partie de l'Épire que pendant le Royaume de Pyrrhos au début du 3e siècle avant J.C."["This border position probably caused misunderstandings among ancient authors about its position in Illyria or Epirus. However, anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross. According to the data at our disposal, Orikos was only part of Epirus during the Kingdom of Pyrrhos at the beginning of the 3rd century BC.6"]. As for authors that mention it in Epirus, it could well be Epirus Nova, nevertheless, the Illyrian coast is clearly interrupted by the Acroceraunian promontory. We have already discussed this several times also in other articles, and the current lede of this article explains it extensively and accurately. – Βατο ( talk) 10:39, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
Also we need to avoid mixing up pre-Roman and Roma era information inside the 1st sentence and then again providing information of a previous era and then again going fast forward to Roman era administration. That's bad prose. Look for example in Amantia and Byllis; although they were Roman cities (Byllis even colonized by Romans) this is not mentioned at the very begininning. Alexikoua ( talk) 23:27, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
:::"Illyrii, a large group of related *Indo-European tribes, who occupied in classical times the western Side of the Balkan range from the head of the *Adriatic Sea to the hinterland of the gulf of Valona and extended northwards as far as the eastern *Alps and the Danube (see DANUVIUS) and eastwards into some districts beyond the Balkan range. The name was properly that of a small people between Scodra and the Mati river, and it was applied by the Greeks and later by the Romans to the other tribes with which they had regular contact. Thus Illyris meant to the Greeks the southern part of the area, that neighbouring *Mace-donia, *Epirus, and the Greek cities on the Adriatic coast and islands, and *Illyricum meant to the Romans the whole area from the eastern Alps to the gulf of Valona.". So, there is no need to continue this discussion any longer. – @Your comment in talk:Amantia
You gave an answer. It's not productive to change positions simply depending on a certain POV. By the way there is no guideline to turn a mountain of top graded authors completly useless and remove them altogether bacause there is one its fits your positions. We have a lot of authors on the issue: Hatzopoulos, Pliakou, Hernandes, Stocker etc. and their opinions need to be presented in the text.
Alexikoua (
talk)
02:45, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
"Illyrii, a large group of related *Indo-European tribes, who occupied in classical times the western Side of the Balkan range from the head of the *Adriatic Sea to the hinterland of the gulf of Valona [...] Thus Illyris meant to the Greeks the southern part of the area, that neighbouring *Mace-donia, *Epirus, and the Greek cities on the Adriatic coast and islands, and *Illyricum meant to the Romans the whole area from the eastern Alps to the gulf of Valona."Orikum is located in the southern end of the Gulf of Valona, on the north of the Dukat plain/valley. Dukat (south of Orikum) can't be considered part of Epirus proper, which began south of Keraunian Mts. And Shpuza (2022):
anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross. According to the data at our disposal, Orikos was only part of Epirus during the Kingdom of Pyrrhos at the beginning of the 3rd century BC.rejects your demands. Already said several times: some scholars who locate Orikum in Epirus (mainly in passing) mean nothing, it could well be Epirus Nova. Sources that specifically focus on the suject of this article should have priority. – Βατο ( talk) 10:24, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
All views should be mentioned in article as Stocker describes them in detail. Alexikoua ( talk) 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Elle s’applique en revanche moins bien au fleuve Aoos48 pour définir une frontière entre Épire et Illyrie. Pour les zones de montagnes, nous pouvons citer les monts Acrocérauniens49 qui pourraient marquer le passage entre la partie chaone de l’Épire et l’Illyrie. Mais la plupart du temps, la montagne est le lieu de vie de nombreuses populations de la Grèce du Nord. À ce titre, elle constitue plus un lieu de rencontre50 qu’une barrière51.
Alexikoua (
talk)
04:07, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
"Illyrii, a large group of related *Indo-European tribes, who occupied in classical times the western Side of the Balkan range from the head of the *Adriatic Sea to the hinterland of the gulf of Valona [...] Thus Illyris meant to the Greeks the southern part of the area, that neighbouring *Mace-donia, *Epirus, and the Greek cities on the Adriatic coast and islands, and *Illyricum meant to the Romans the whole area from the eastern Alps to the gulf of Valona.";
"one may say with some degree of certainty that from the 4th c. BC onwards the geographic boundaries of Epirus were by and large set as follows: the so called Keraunia or Akrokeraunia mountain range to the north (modern day S. Albania), ..."
"Cependant, tous ceux qui connaissent la géographie imaginent mal que le territoire d' Épire puisse aller au-delà des Monts Cérauniens, qui représentent une frontière naturelle difficilement franchissable. D'après les données à notre disposition, Orikos n'a fait partie de l'Épire que pendant le Royaume de Pyrrhos au début du 3e siècle avant J.C." ["anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross. According to the data at our disposal, Orikos was only part of Epirus during the Kingdom of Pyrrhos at the beginning of the 3rd century BC.]"
"Le difficoltà di collegamento tra la Baia di Valona e la costa albanese meridionale, a sud del promontorio di Karaburun, sono evidenziate nel De bello civili da Cesare, quando, nell’inverno del 48 a.C., ormeggiate le navi a Paleste, a nord di porto Palermo, è costretto, con grandi difficoltà, ad attraversare il Passo di Llogara alla volta di Oricum, allora nella mani di Pompeo" ["The difficulties of connection between the Bay of Vlora and the southern Albanian coast, south of the promontory of Karaburun, are highlighted in the De bello civil by Cesare, when, in the winter of 48 BC, the ships moored in Paleste, north of the port Palermo, is forced, with great difficulty, to cross the Llogara Pass towards Oricum, then in the hands of Pompey".
De celle-ci dépend la frontière entre Illyriens et Épirotes. Elle s'applique en revanche moins bien au fleuve Aoos pour définir une frontière entre Épire et Illyrie. Pour les zones de montagnes, nous pouvons citer les monts Acrocérauniens qui pourraient marquer le passage entre la partie chaone de l'Épire et l'Illyrie. Mais la plupart du temps, la montagne est le lieu de vie de nombreuses populations de la Grèce du Nord. À ce titre, elle constitue plus un lieu de rencontre qu'une barrière.Alexikoua ( talk) 02:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
As Beaumont observes, it had easy access to the small harbour Panormus across the peninsula over the Logara Pass, thus providing it with good communications with Corcyra and the Euboean position on the mainland opposite Corcyra.
Epirus is situated in the western Balkans and is today divided between southern Albania and northwest Greece (Fig. 3). Its coastline faces the Ionian Sea, from the Gulf of Aulon (located opposite Italy at the Strait of Otranto) to the Gulf of Arta, that is, from the ancient territories of Oricum and Amantia in the north to the ancient territories of Ambracia and Amphilochian Argos in the south, respectively.
Appian's description of the Illyrian territories records a southern boundary with Chaonia and Thesprotia, where ancient Epirus began south of the river Aous (Vijose).Alexikoua ( talk) 02:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
["anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross."]; Volpe et al. (2014):
["The difficulties of connection between the Bay of Vlora and the southern Albanian coast, south of the promontory of Karaburun, are highlighted in the De bello civil by Cesare, when, in the winter of 48 BC, the ships moored in Paleste, north of the port Palermo, is forced, with great difficulty, to cross the Llogara Pass towards Oricum, then in the hands of Pompey"].
"one may say with some degree of certainty that from the 4th c. BC onwards the geographic boundaries of Epirus were by and large set as follows: the so-called Keraunia or Akrokeraunia mountain range to the north (modern-day S. Albania), the Ambracian Gulf to the South, the Pindus (Pindos) mountain range to the east, and the Ionian Sea to the west"makes other statements selected by some sources that go against mainstream scholarship less relevant. Anyway, this discussion is about the first sentence of the lede, decided months ago by consensus with several editors including you. To change it a RfC is needed. No need to continue this discussion here. Cheers. – Βατο ( talk) 11:08, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
The paragraph about 5th century BC inscriptions is in part original research not supported by the reference provided. It should be reworded appropriately according to the sources. – Βατο ( talk) 11:47, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
It's supposed to be supported in Shpuza 2002, p. 553, but no such information exist there. Nevertheless Shpuza, Cipa (2021), locate the eastern borders of the territory of Oricum at Lungarë. This makes Dukat a part of the polis' territory. Alexikoua ( talk) 06:30, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
"Politiquement, le territoire d’Orikos se situait à la frontière entre l’Épire et l’Illyrie (fig. 3 ), le col de Llogara étant le seul point de passage terrestre entre ces deux régions." [Politically, the territory of Orikos was located on the border between Epirus and Illyria (fig. 3 ), the pass of Llogara being the only land crossing point between these two regions.], note that Oricum was located in the north of the Llogara Pass. It is further clarified in Shpuza (2022):
"Cependant, tous ceux qui connaissent la géographie imaginent mal que le territoire d' Épire puisse aller au-delà des Monts Cérauniens, qui représentent une frontière naturelle difficilement franchissable. D'après les données à notre disposition, Orikos n'a fait partie de l'Épire que pendant le Royaume de Pyrrhos au début du 3e siècle avant J.C." ["anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross. According to the data at our disposal, Orikos was only part of Epirus during the Kingdom of Pyrrhos at the beginning of the 3rd century BC.]"Oricum was a port of the Adriatic Sea, and this sea coast was inhabited by Illyrians. The tumuli in the hinterland similar to the tumuli in Apulia provide evidence of communication between Illyrians on the eastern Adriatic and Iapygians on the western Adriatic, and it should be obvious because Oricum-Brindisi is the simplest route to cross the Adriatic. The movement of Indo-European peoples from western Balkans to south-eastern Italy is what mainstream scholarship discusses today while studying the Messapic language. As for the presence of Illyrians in the hinterland of Oricum (coinciding with Dukat plain) before the arrival of Greek colonists:
the finds from the hinterland of Oricum offer no proof of any contacts of the Greeks with the local Illyrian population ."Also, Pseudo-Skylax's detailed description of the area clearly attests that it was inhabited by Illyrians. I don't understand what do you want to achieve in this discussion. – Βατο ( talk) 10:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Shpuza (2022) reports: "On ne connaît que peu de choses des origines de son urbani- sation. On ne sait pas non plus si elle fut à l'origine une colonie eubéenne. Le plus ancien témoignage de l'urbanisation de la ville est le mur d'enceinte, construit au IV siècle avant notre ère." ["Little is known about the origins of its urbanization. It is also not known whether it was originally a Euboean colony. The oldest evidence of the city's urbanization is the surrounding wall, built in the 4th century BC."]
The statement "The polis was founded as a southern Greek colony rather than an indigenous foundation." included into the article and based on Hernandez' thesis (2010) is not clear. He does not explain what he means by "southern Greek colony". Although being considered by most scholars as a Greek city, its exact origins are still uncertain as it could have started to develop its urbanisation under the influence of poleis like Korkyra and Apollonia. –
Βατο (
talk)
23:32, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
To clarify, ancient Epirus did possess poleis, but these were not generally indigenous foundations; rather they were southern Greek colonial foundations. These poleis were generally situated along the coast, at locations such as Ambracia, Amphilochian Argos,Buchetium, Buthrotum, Oricum, and Thronium.. What exactly makes this statement not clear? Obviously "southern Greek colony" means either Corinthian or Euboean or a colony established by any other Greek metropolis that's located south of Epirus. Shpuza is also uncertain about the founders of Oricum. Urbanization is yet another issue. Nevertheless there are no Illyrian traces in terms of archaeology. Alexikoua ( talk) 02:25, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
As a Euboean foundation it would date back to about the mid 8th century BC,
[1]
[2] probably established as an
Eretrian
emporium,
[3] or as a harbor by Eretrian refugees from
Kerkyra after this island was conquered by the
Corinthians, although the latter hypothesis is less likely.
[4]
I see no traces of mythology so there will be no issue to make the move to history.
Alexikoua (
talk)
03:34, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
References
The maritime routes toward the Strait of Otranto were frequented by Greeks as early as ca. 800 B.C., and the Euboeans settled in Corcyra and Oricum in the Bay of Valona (facing Otranto) about the mid - eighth century .
To sum up: a colonising Euboean presence at both Corcyra and Orikos may seem acceptable at least for the mid-eighth century, replaced at Corcyra by Corinth probably ca 733 (or possibly some twenty-five years later). The archaeological evidence from Otranto seems to suggest that this Greek presence was preceded by proto-colonial traffic and was directed not only with a view to commerce in the Epirote lands and the Ionian sea, sailing up the coasts, but also across the Otranto Straits, to Italy and possibly also to the Adriatic (the sea north of the Straits). The evidence points to contacts already ca 800 and the first half of the eighth century and may be thus termed proto-colonial
"As Beaumont observes, it had easy access to the small harbour Panormus across the peninsula over the Logara Pass, thus providing it with good communications with Corcyra and the Euboean position on the mainland opposite Corcyra."Boumont's publication dates back to 1936, it is an outdated source.
"Malkin suggests that Oricum was founded in the 8th century B.C., contemporary with the Euboean settlements on Pithekoussai and Corcyra, as a way station on voyages across the Adriatic to Otranto;817 there is currently, however, no archaeological evidence for an early settlement there.818 [...] Malkin 1998a, p. 5, 2001b, p. 189. He suggests (2001b, p. 192), however, that Oricum was then on Sazan island in the Bay of Vlora with a peraia on the shore of the mainland opposite. There is no evidence to support this hypothesis, which is refuted both by the geography of the bay itself and by excavations on the mainland at the site believed by most to be that of Oricum.Malkin has no knowledge about the geography of the area (he cites an observation made by Boumont in 1936).
"anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross."and Volpe et al. (2014):
["The difficulties of connection between the Bay of Vlora and the southern Albanian coast, south of the promontory of Karaburun, are highlighted in the De bello civil by Cesare, when, in the winter of 48 BC, the ships moored in Paleste, north of the port Palermo, is forced, with great difficulty, to cross the Llogara Pass towards Oricum, then in the hands of Pompey"]
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If you keep unconstructive editing, I will add also several scholars that consider the subject of this article an Illyrian harbor or an Illyrian city, like the sources you use in Amantia. Since you don't accept an Illyrian descriprion of Amantia into the lead, then I could ask for the removal of Ancient Greek from Oricum as well. Both the cities are clearly described in ancient sources, Amantia as Illyrian and Oricum as Greek. As I told you several times, double standards are not allowed, make your choice. – Βατο ( talk) 08:34, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
"Greek polis" will go. You know full well this was Euboean Greek colony, and sources only refer to it as "Illyrian" because of the location. The inhabitants were Greek and spoke Greek, there is nothing "Illyrian" about it. And there is no such thing as Roman protectorate of Illyricum, there is only Illyricum (Roman province) and the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum. This map clearly shows it was in Epirus Vetus, part of the province of Macedonia.
If you keep unconstructive editing, I will add also several scholars
Otherwise I will add many top notch scholars that consider it an Illyrian city. Hernandez 2010, one of the top sources on this topic, clearly considers Oricum a Greek colonial foundation:
rather they were southern Greek colonial foundations. These poleis were generally situated along the coast, at locations such as Ambracia, Amphilochian Argos, Buchetium, Buthrotum, Oricum, and Thronium.As for Epirus Nova, yes Shpuza considers it in Epirus Nova, but nowhere does he mention that Epirus Nova was
also called Illyris. He only says that Epirus Nova was part of Macedonia. You don't have a single source for
Greek colonists might well have been mixed with the local population., nothing, just speculation and WP:OR. What "local Illyrians"? The site was uninhabited. The map of the protectorate you posted, shows a protectorate, but does not call it "Illyricum". You don't have a single source that establishes the existence of a Roman protectorate of Illyricum. Khirurg ( talk) 16:42, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
"As a consequence, in 229 there followed a rapid war, which the Romans won. Queen Teuta, Agron's widow, was forced to retreat to the Bay of Kotor. In 228, the Romans imposed a protectorate on the islands of Issa (Vis) and Corfu, and on the cities of Epidamnos (Durrës), Apollonia (present-day Pojani) and Oricum (Orikum) in the bay of Vlorë. This protectorate coincided with the use of the Roman concept of Illyricum."The city of Oricum is considered a Greek foundation (different from the particular Euboean tradition, which would date back much earlier than the 6th century BC), but that does not imply that the context preceding the Greek colony/polis should be removed from the first sentence. – Βατο ( talk) 17:05, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
By the middle of the first century the Romans were using the name Illyricum for their Adriatic territories north of the Drin, south of which the province Macedonia began., and even then it referred only to the area in northern Albania. To use it to describe a protectorate of the 3rd century BC is anachronistic. I see your point about "Illyrian/Epirote", but there needs to be some kind of amendment to "Illyrian harbor". The area was uninhabited prior to the 6th century BC, which is when the colony was founded since that is the tail end of the age of Greek colonization. Many authors also place it in Epirus no matter the time period, so "Illyrian harbor" is POV. It has to change, something like "a harbor between Illyria and Epirus". Khirurg ( talk) 18:23, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
"Illyricum" began to be used only after the mid-1st century BC, that's your completely incorrect interpretation. Illyricum was the Latin term for Illyria, not just the term for the Province that was established in Imperial times. Also, Wilkes' includes Oricum in the "Illyrian Lands" map (Map 1). As stated by the sources, before the Greek colony it was an Illyrian port, and it should be explained in the first sentence. Before Dyrrhachium, it was the eastern principal harbor of the main sea route linking southern Illyrians with Iapygia. Mentioning "Illyrian harbor" is as relevant as mentioning that it was a Greek city in later times. – Βατο ( talk) 19:01, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Illyricum was the Latin term for Illyria, not just the term for the Province that was established in Imperial times.is unsourced and WP:OR. Khirurg ( talk) 20:48, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Illyricum was the Latin term for Illyria, not just the term for the Province that was established in Imperial times.is unsourced and WP:OR." WP:Competence is required. Read the reliable sources, I am not arguing about that anymore.
"Drawing upon earlier written sources about sailing voyages (periploi), the Periplous of Pseudo-Skylax (28–33) traces the coast of the Mediterranean and purports to be a “circumnavigation of the inhabited world”. The text was composed in the third quarter of the 4th century B.C. The description of Epeiros moves southward along the Adriatic and Ionian Seas in the direction of mainland Greece. It appears to represent Epeiros in the years ca. 380–360 B.C. In Illyria, Epidamnos and Apollonia are listed as Greek cities (πόλεις Ἑλληνίδες). Orikos is identified as a polis located within the territory of an Illyrian city, Amantia. After Illyria, the text lists Chaonia."Especially after this edit, it clearly illustrates your usage of double standards. Btw, the Euboean founding myth and the reason of its construction will be restored, no reason to remove it. Despite the fact that so far it appears to be a non-historical tradition, it evidently played a certain role in the history and culture of the city. – Βατο ( talk) 22:00, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
"since according to you it is "rejected"I did not say it, I said that "it is almost rejected in current scholarship". Despite that, my opinion is not relevant for it, it was made in another context. Scholars report and discuss the ancient tradition because it is relevant for the subject of the article, despite its dubious historicity, hence it can be included into the lede. – Βατο ( talk) 22:47, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Scholars report and discuss the ancient tradition because it is relevant for the subject of the article: Not really. For instance Hernandez doesn't mention is anywhere in his entire dissertation. Khirurg ( talk) 03:33, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
"Orikos, or Orikon (at modern Orikumi) is little known beyond having been a Euboean foundation.". It is the most renowned ancient description concerning the polis of Orikos, its existence in ancient literature and the reason of its construction are worth a mention into the lede. – Βατο ( talk) 08:23, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
"Cette po-sition frontalière a probablement occasionné des malentendus parmi les auteurs anciens sur son po-sitionnement en Illyrie ou en Épire. Cependant, tous ceux qui connaissent la géographie imaginent mal que le territoire d' Épire puisse aller au-delà des Monts Cérauniens, qui représentent une frontière naturelle difficilement franchissable. D'après les données à notre disposition, Orikos n'a fait partie de l'Épire que pendant le Royaume de Pyrrhos au début du 3e siècle avant J.C."["This border position probably caused misunderstandings among ancient authors about its position in Illyria or Epirus. However, anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross. According to the data at our disposal, Orikos was only part of Epirus during the Kingdom of Pyrrhos at the beginning of the 3rd century BC.6"].
Ὤρικος, πόλις ἐν τῷ Ἰονίῳ κόλπῳ. Ἑκαταῖος λιμένα καλεῖ Ἠπείρου τὸν Ὤρικον ἐν τῇ Εὐρώπῃ "μετὰ δὲ Βουθρωτὸς πόλις, μετὰ δὲ Ὤρικος λιμήν
Alexikoua (
talk)
21:14, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Ὤρικος, πόλις ἐν τῷ Ἰονίῳ κόλπῳ. Ἑκαταῖος λιμένα καλεῖ Ἠπείρου τὸν Ὤρικον ἐν τῇ Εὐρώπῃ "μετὰ δὲ Βουθρωτὸς πόλις, μετὰ δὲ Ὤρικος λιμήν
Alexikoua (
talk)
23:02, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
"Cette po-sition frontalière a probablement occasionné des malentendus parmi les auteurs anciens sur son po-sitionnement en Illyrie ou en Épire. Cependant, tous ceux qui connaissent la géographie imaginent mal que le territoire d' Épire puisse aller au-delà des Monts Cérauniens, qui représentent une frontière naturelle difficilement franchissable. D'après les données à notre disposition, Orikos n'a fait partie de l'Épire que pendant le Royaume de Pyrrhos au début du 3e siècle avant J.C."["This border position probably caused misunderstandings among ancient authors about its position in Illyria or Epirus. However, anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross. According to the data at our disposal, Orikos was only part of Epirus during the Kingdom of Pyrrhos at the beginning of the 3rd century BC.6"]. As for authors that mention it in Epirus, it could well be Epirus Nova, nevertheless, the Illyrian coast is clearly interrupted by the Acroceraunian promontory. We have already discussed this several times also in other articles, and the current lede of this article explains it extensively and accurately. – Βατο ( talk) 10:39, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
Also we need to avoid mixing up pre-Roman and Roma era information inside the 1st sentence and then again providing information of a previous era and then again going fast forward to Roman era administration. That's bad prose. Look for example in Amantia and Byllis; although they were Roman cities (Byllis even colonized by Romans) this is not mentioned at the very begininning. Alexikoua ( talk) 23:27, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
:::"Illyrii, a large group of related *Indo-European tribes, who occupied in classical times the western Side of the Balkan range from the head of the *Adriatic Sea to the hinterland of the gulf of Valona and extended northwards as far as the eastern *Alps and the Danube (see DANUVIUS) and eastwards into some districts beyond the Balkan range. The name was properly that of a small people between Scodra and the Mati river, and it was applied by the Greeks and later by the Romans to the other tribes with which they had regular contact. Thus Illyris meant to the Greeks the southern part of the area, that neighbouring *Mace-donia, *Epirus, and the Greek cities on the Adriatic coast and islands, and *Illyricum meant to the Romans the whole area from the eastern Alps to the gulf of Valona.". So, there is no need to continue this discussion any longer. – @Your comment in talk:Amantia
You gave an answer. It's not productive to change positions simply depending on a certain POV. By the way there is no guideline to turn a mountain of top graded authors completly useless and remove them altogether bacause there is one its fits your positions. We have a lot of authors on the issue: Hatzopoulos, Pliakou, Hernandes, Stocker etc. and their opinions need to be presented in the text.
Alexikoua (
talk)
02:45, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
"Illyrii, a large group of related *Indo-European tribes, who occupied in classical times the western Side of the Balkan range from the head of the *Adriatic Sea to the hinterland of the gulf of Valona [...] Thus Illyris meant to the Greeks the southern part of the area, that neighbouring *Mace-donia, *Epirus, and the Greek cities on the Adriatic coast and islands, and *Illyricum meant to the Romans the whole area from the eastern Alps to the gulf of Valona."Orikum is located in the southern end of the Gulf of Valona, on the north of the Dukat plain/valley. Dukat (south of Orikum) can't be considered part of Epirus proper, which began south of Keraunian Mts. And Shpuza (2022):
anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross. According to the data at our disposal, Orikos was only part of Epirus during the Kingdom of Pyrrhos at the beginning of the 3rd century BC.rejects your demands. Already said several times: some scholars who locate Orikum in Epirus (mainly in passing) mean nothing, it could well be Epirus Nova. Sources that specifically focus on the suject of this article should have priority. – Βατο ( talk) 10:24, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
All views should be mentioned in article as Stocker describes them in detail. Alexikoua ( talk) 23:13, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Elle s’applique en revanche moins bien au fleuve Aoos48 pour définir une frontière entre Épire et Illyrie. Pour les zones de montagnes, nous pouvons citer les monts Acrocérauniens49 qui pourraient marquer le passage entre la partie chaone de l’Épire et l’Illyrie. Mais la plupart du temps, la montagne est le lieu de vie de nombreuses populations de la Grèce du Nord. À ce titre, elle constitue plus un lieu de rencontre50 qu’une barrière51.
Alexikoua (
talk)
04:07, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
"Illyrii, a large group of related *Indo-European tribes, who occupied in classical times the western Side of the Balkan range from the head of the *Adriatic Sea to the hinterland of the gulf of Valona [...] Thus Illyris meant to the Greeks the southern part of the area, that neighbouring *Mace-donia, *Epirus, and the Greek cities on the Adriatic coast and islands, and *Illyricum meant to the Romans the whole area from the eastern Alps to the gulf of Valona.";
"one may say with some degree of certainty that from the 4th c. BC onwards the geographic boundaries of Epirus were by and large set as follows: the so called Keraunia or Akrokeraunia mountain range to the north (modern day S. Albania), ..."
"Cependant, tous ceux qui connaissent la géographie imaginent mal que le territoire d' Épire puisse aller au-delà des Monts Cérauniens, qui représentent une frontière naturelle difficilement franchissable. D'après les données à notre disposition, Orikos n'a fait partie de l'Épire que pendant le Royaume de Pyrrhos au début du 3e siècle avant J.C." ["anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross. According to the data at our disposal, Orikos was only part of Epirus during the Kingdom of Pyrrhos at the beginning of the 3rd century BC.]"
"Le difficoltà di collegamento tra la Baia di Valona e la costa albanese meridionale, a sud del promontorio di Karaburun, sono evidenziate nel De bello civili da Cesare, quando, nell’inverno del 48 a.C., ormeggiate le navi a Paleste, a nord di porto Palermo, è costretto, con grandi difficoltà, ad attraversare il Passo di Llogara alla volta di Oricum, allora nella mani di Pompeo" ["The difficulties of connection between the Bay of Vlora and the southern Albanian coast, south of the promontory of Karaburun, are highlighted in the De bello civil by Cesare, when, in the winter of 48 BC, the ships moored in Paleste, north of the port Palermo, is forced, with great difficulty, to cross the Llogara Pass towards Oricum, then in the hands of Pompey".
De celle-ci dépend la frontière entre Illyriens et Épirotes. Elle s'applique en revanche moins bien au fleuve Aoos pour définir une frontière entre Épire et Illyrie. Pour les zones de montagnes, nous pouvons citer les monts Acrocérauniens qui pourraient marquer le passage entre la partie chaone de l'Épire et l'Illyrie. Mais la plupart du temps, la montagne est le lieu de vie de nombreuses populations de la Grèce du Nord. À ce titre, elle constitue plus un lieu de rencontre qu'une barrière.Alexikoua ( talk) 02:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
As Beaumont observes, it had easy access to the small harbour Panormus across the peninsula over the Logara Pass, thus providing it with good communications with Corcyra and the Euboean position on the mainland opposite Corcyra.
Epirus is situated in the western Balkans and is today divided between southern Albania and northwest Greece (Fig. 3). Its coastline faces the Ionian Sea, from the Gulf of Aulon (located opposite Italy at the Strait of Otranto) to the Gulf of Arta, that is, from the ancient territories of Oricum and Amantia in the north to the ancient territories of Ambracia and Amphilochian Argos in the south, respectively.
Appian's description of the Illyrian territories records a southern boundary with Chaonia and Thesprotia, where ancient Epirus began south of the river Aous (Vijose).Alexikoua ( talk) 02:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
["anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross."]; Volpe et al. (2014):
["The difficulties of connection between the Bay of Vlora and the southern Albanian coast, south of the promontory of Karaburun, are highlighted in the De bello civil by Cesare, when, in the winter of 48 BC, the ships moored in Paleste, north of the port Palermo, is forced, with great difficulty, to cross the Llogara Pass towards Oricum, then in the hands of Pompey"].
"one may say with some degree of certainty that from the 4th c. BC onwards the geographic boundaries of Epirus were by and large set as follows: the so-called Keraunia or Akrokeraunia mountain range to the north (modern-day S. Albania), the Ambracian Gulf to the South, the Pindus (Pindos) mountain range to the east, and the Ionian Sea to the west"makes other statements selected by some sources that go against mainstream scholarship less relevant. Anyway, this discussion is about the first sentence of the lede, decided months ago by consensus with several editors including you. To change it a RfC is needed. No need to continue this discussion here. Cheers. – Βατο ( talk) 11:08, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
The paragraph about 5th century BC inscriptions is in part original research not supported by the reference provided. It should be reworded appropriately according to the sources. – Βατο ( talk) 11:47, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
It's supposed to be supported in Shpuza 2002, p. 553, but no such information exist there. Nevertheless Shpuza, Cipa (2021), locate the eastern borders of the territory of Oricum at Lungarë. This makes Dukat a part of the polis' territory. Alexikoua ( talk) 06:30, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
"Politiquement, le territoire d’Orikos se situait à la frontière entre l’Épire et l’Illyrie (fig. 3 ), le col de Llogara étant le seul point de passage terrestre entre ces deux régions." [Politically, the territory of Orikos was located on the border between Epirus and Illyria (fig. 3 ), the pass of Llogara being the only land crossing point between these two regions.], note that Oricum was located in the north of the Llogara Pass. It is further clarified in Shpuza (2022):
"Cependant, tous ceux qui connaissent la géographie imaginent mal que le territoire d' Épire puisse aller au-delà des Monts Cérauniens, qui représentent une frontière naturelle difficilement franchissable. D'après les données à notre disposition, Orikos n'a fait partie de l'Épire que pendant le Royaume de Pyrrhos au début du 3e siècle avant J.C." ["anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross. According to the data at our disposal, Orikos was only part of Epirus during the Kingdom of Pyrrhos at the beginning of the 3rd century BC.]"Oricum was a port of the Adriatic Sea, and this sea coast was inhabited by Illyrians. The tumuli in the hinterland similar to the tumuli in Apulia provide evidence of communication between Illyrians on the eastern Adriatic and Iapygians on the western Adriatic, and it should be obvious because Oricum-Brindisi is the simplest route to cross the Adriatic. The movement of Indo-European peoples from western Balkans to south-eastern Italy is what mainstream scholarship discusses today while studying the Messapic language. As for the presence of Illyrians in the hinterland of Oricum (coinciding with Dukat plain) before the arrival of Greek colonists:
the finds from the hinterland of Oricum offer no proof of any contacts of the Greeks with the local Illyrian population ."Also, Pseudo-Skylax's detailed description of the area clearly attests that it was inhabited by Illyrians. I don't understand what do you want to achieve in this discussion. – Βατο ( talk) 10:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Shpuza (2022) reports: "On ne connaît que peu de choses des origines de son urbani- sation. On ne sait pas non plus si elle fut à l'origine une colonie eubéenne. Le plus ancien témoignage de l'urbanisation de la ville est le mur d'enceinte, construit au IV siècle avant notre ère." ["Little is known about the origins of its urbanization. It is also not known whether it was originally a Euboean colony. The oldest evidence of the city's urbanization is the surrounding wall, built in the 4th century BC."]
The statement "The polis was founded as a southern Greek colony rather than an indigenous foundation." included into the article and based on Hernandez' thesis (2010) is not clear. He does not explain what he means by "southern Greek colony". Although being considered by most scholars as a Greek city, its exact origins are still uncertain as it could have started to develop its urbanisation under the influence of poleis like Korkyra and Apollonia. –
Βατο (
talk)
23:32, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
To clarify, ancient Epirus did possess poleis, but these were not generally indigenous foundations; rather they were southern Greek colonial foundations. These poleis were generally situated along the coast, at locations such as Ambracia, Amphilochian Argos,Buchetium, Buthrotum, Oricum, and Thronium.. What exactly makes this statement not clear? Obviously "southern Greek colony" means either Corinthian or Euboean or a colony established by any other Greek metropolis that's located south of Epirus. Shpuza is also uncertain about the founders of Oricum. Urbanization is yet another issue. Nevertheless there are no Illyrian traces in terms of archaeology. Alexikoua ( talk) 02:25, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
As a Euboean foundation it would date back to about the mid 8th century BC,
[1]
[2] probably established as an
Eretrian
emporium,
[3] or as a harbor by Eretrian refugees from
Kerkyra after this island was conquered by the
Corinthians, although the latter hypothesis is less likely.
[4]
I see no traces of mythology so there will be no issue to make the move to history.
Alexikoua (
talk)
03:34, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
References
The maritime routes toward the Strait of Otranto were frequented by Greeks as early as ca. 800 B.C., and the Euboeans settled in Corcyra and Oricum in the Bay of Valona (facing Otranto) about the mid - eighth century .
To sum up: a colonising Euboean presence at both Corcyra and Orikos may seem acceptable at least for the mid-eighth century, replaced at Corcyra by Corinth probably ca 733 (or possibly some twenty-five years later). The archaeological evidence from Otranto seems to suggest that this Greek presence was preceded by proto-colonial traffic and was directed not only with a view to commerce in the Epirote lands and the Ionian sea, sailing up the coasts, but also across the Otranto Straits, to Italy and possibly also to the Adriatic (the sea north of the Straits). The evidence points to contacts already ca 800 and the first half of the eighth century and may be thus termed proto-colonial
"As Beaumont observes, it had easy access to the small harbour Panormus across the peninsula over the Logara Pass, thus providing it with good communications with Corcyra and the Euboean position on the mainland opposite Corcyra."Boumont's publication dates back to 1936, it is an outdated source.
"Malkin suggests that Oricum was founded in the 8th century B.C., contemporary with the Euboean settlements on Pithekoussai and Corcyra, as a way station on voyages across the Adriatic to Otranto;817 there is currently, however, no archaeological evidence for an early settlement there.818 [...] Malkin 1998a, p. 5, 2001b, p. 189. He suggests (2001b, p. 192), however, that Oricum was then on Sazan island in the Bay of Vlora with a peraia on the shore of the mainland opposite. There is no evidence to support this hypothesis, which is refuted both by the geography of the bay itself and by excavations on the mainland at the site believed by most to be that of Oricum.Malkin has no knowledge about the geography of the area (he cites an observation made by Boumont in 1936).
"anyone who knows geography finds it hard to imagine that the territory of Epirus can go beyond the Ceraunian Mountains, which represent a natural border that is difficult to cross."and Volpe et al. (2014):
["The difficulties of connection between the Bay of Vlora and the southern Albanian coast, south of the promontory of Karaburun, are highlighted in the De bello civil by Cesare, when, in the winter of 48 BC, the ships moored in Paleste, north of the port Palermo, is forced, with great difficulty, to cross the Llogara Pass towards Oricum, then in the hands of Pompey"]