This sub-page is for the improvements done and comments given to move the the Opus Dei article towards Feature Article Status.
This is partially --very partially-- self nom because there are many others who helped in writing this article. From what I've read in the Talk Page, the article swung from an edit war last year to a stalemate, then a short NPOV issue last April due to some overenthusiastic newbies, and since May, a time of harmony and peace when NPOV rules were quoted, ratios established, and details worked on. It has grown since then. It has been under Peer Review since September 9: Peer Review of Opus Dei article And changes have been made based on the feedback. Please see Talk Page as well, for it contains many explanations on why the article appears as it is. Thomas S. Major 05:53, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
I checked out Wikipedia:Cite sources and it answers some of the questions. Please see below my reply to Bishonen. Thanks. :) Thomas S. Major 00:05, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Additional discussions from the Talk Page
Since people kept silent regarding the question of Thomas S. Major and of Davidson whether this article is using the credible experts, we presume that the answer is yes. With the new book of Allen (see above), the overwhelming majority position has been further strengthened. If we presume that there is both internal and external assent to this position, then the structure and main contents are correct in substance.
Thus, the penultimate stage for this article is to ensure that the intro summarizes the contents of this article. (The last stage is to ensure that all the details of attribution and flow are taken care of. ) Marax (forgot to sign last time: sorry)
I wrote the paragraphs. I forgot to sign, sorry. I fully agree with Bishonen that the question of credible experts has to be taken with full seriousness. It is indeed the central question. That is why I understand the plea of Tom Major. That is also why I waited for many days before I posted what I posted above. Today it is more than a week since Davidson asked Eloquence and Giano that question. The question continues to be unanswered.
I don't think though that citing policies is automatically a case of ruleslawyering--an attempt to annoy or to be pedantic, or to use the rule for personal benefit. I believe it is a sincere attempt to know the limits, to have a sense of order, to avoid anarchy, to be rational, reasonable and objective in our discussion, to be at peace while we work on this.
Again, I agree with you Bishonen that the question on credible experts is a serious question and has to be dealt with seriously. I hope you can help us figure that question out. As Davidson said, we are ready to change this article if necessary. I can personally say that I am sufficiently detached from it. But this objectivity also propels the mind to do what this encyclopedia is aimed at: to "create a reliable and free encyclopedia—indeed, the largest encyclopedia in history, in both breadth and depth. Wikipedia has some policies and guidelines that help us to work toward that common goal." Wikipedia is a "collection of synthesized knowledge presented from a neutral point of view," and here "research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is strongly encouraged." I understand that "It's an obligation of Wikipedia to its readers that the information they read here be reliable and reputable, and so we rely only on credible or reputable published sources." (From No Original Research.) Marax 03:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, Marax. In response to your request on my talk page, I've re-read the FAC discussion carefully, to try to figure out exactly how your reasoning above relates to it, and I have to say I'm a bit appalled by the consistency with which the article's defenders responding there assume on WP:FAC as well that silence gives consent. To improve the article, you really need to disabuse yourselves of that notion! Rama and Zantastic did not tacitly agree to the proposition that the sentence "Opus Dei's Christ-centeredness urges Christians to live like Christ in everything, even if their behaviour "clashes" with a "paganized environment"" can be NPOV'd by inserting "supporters say" into it. They merely didn't respond "in time". Perhaps they had other things to do..? Perhaps they gave up because nobody seemed to be listening? Anyway, when it was explicitly stated on FAC that they had tacitly agreed, they turned up, to say "not at all". I would have thought that that incident would suggest the dangers of your assumptions.
Eloquence and Giano did not respond to your rather imperious challenges to go read more ("I would like to ask both of you --and the others -- to read the NPOV tutorial rules"; "Kindly read the Talk Page of Opus": they went away, having said their say. I don't know Eloquence, but I happen to know Giano, and know how busy he is in Real Life. You guys don't sound on FAC quite like you realize that Wikipedia is a hobby, a spare-time activity, for the editors you try to browbeat (that's what it amounts to, IMO) into reading more--even, incredibly, into reading the whole content of your bibliography!
If one looks at the extensive bibliography, the proportions and the structure of the article reflect existing scholarship: a great deal of literature on theology, some juridical studies, historical and sociological literature, and some cult and anti-Opus Dei issues. The article also reflects the contents of the monographs. Anybody who wants to propose changes to the structure of the article should read these books written by credible experts." ( User:Marax, support vote.)
Let me say that I doubt any individual has read all these books, and I assume you're not seriously proposing that FAC editors go read them before commenting. The alternative meaning of what you say seems to be "Since you haven't read the books in the bibliography, you don't get to comment on the structure." Right...? Now that's not like inviting advice from the community, it's more like trying to preemptively prove that any outside criticism of the article's structure will necessarily be invalid.
When I read the FAC vote in order to add my own 2c, I speed-read it, and I was struck by the many courteous expressions, thanks and so on, from the article's defenders. Now that I look more carefully, this urbanity looks like a bit of a sham. You guys don't give an inch. You expect to be able to argue, bully (frankly), and, yes, ruleslawyer the commenters into withdrawing their objections. They didn't, though. I repeat: objections on FAC that haven't been withdrawn are assumed to still stand. That's how that page works, and it's the only possible way for it to work: articles aren't supposed to become featured merely because their proponents never stop arguing.
Iff Eloquence and Giano (and I, and a few more) had been convinced into withdrawing our original objections,
Opus Dei would be Featured now. Because of the intransigence of the defenders of status quo, I doubt that it ever will be.
This paragraph on the FAC vote worries me:
Kindly read the Talk Page of Opus where the editors have discussed (based on Wikipedia method of consensus) who the reputable, credible experts are in this field who use the common methods of the field. If both of you can mention other credible experts on the field, then all of us will listen, and then we can work out a consensus based on the above rules. If we agree that their credible expertise is above the following experts who support each other: John Paul II, Benedict XVI, John Allen, V. Messori, James V. Schall, Bryan R. Wilson, Dr. Kliever, St. Josemaria himself, and the Catholic leaders whose testimonies are found in a separate article, then I suppose we will just have to decide to give them more space than these people, and change the whole tone of this article. R Davidson 14:11, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
The trouble is that R. Davidson swallows the camel "the field" in passing, before going on to argue about some gnats. Which field? It's only if the field is "Catholic exegesis" or "Catholic theology" or suchlike that popes, or José Maria, are the experts. In the Catholic Encyclopedia, they surely are the experts, but, as Eloquence pointed out, that's not what Wikipedia is. Here, popes represent one POV; there are other equally valid POVs. Therefore R. Davidson's implicit assumption that popes are better than other experts because they are the ultimate authorities on Catholic theology is fundamentally misconceived. Popes need to have their say in the article, but because of their great "inside" authority, they actually need more, not less, balancing from the outside.
I hope I don't sound too negative. I'm actually trying to help. This is my best shot, though; I'm afraid I won't have time to dialogue any more. I wish I did, but it's the third time I've written--twice here, once on FAC--and that's it, sorry, I've got articles to write. Best wishes,
Bishonen |
talk
21:49, 5 October 2005 (UTC).
I am thankful for her feedback. I see her point that the article seems to have been written from only one point of view. People here on the other hand see that this is being written taking into account all the POVs together while giving a lopsided preponderance to a point of view which is supported by majority of experts--Catholic, non-catholic, and non-believer. I suppose one direction this article has to look at is to look for experts who, as fuddlemark says, have "no relationship towards OD, the Catholic Church, or any anti-cult group." This is also the preferred road offered by the NPOV policy:
We have to search for this type of sources. Marax 06:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Allen, Messori, Wilson, West, Kliever, Thierry, Rodriguez, Friedlander are not the Pope. Urquhart, Walsh, Hutchinson, Moncada are not the Pope.
I admire your courage, Bishonen. But clearly you are incorrect.
You are correct, Marax. But there shouldn't be any inferiority complex for the experts this article has. They are the most credible experts available and we report in proportion to the credibility of the experts.
Please see what I wrote below. This article is definitely not written from a Catholic Encyclopaedia point of view. Rabadur 07:47, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I said in the Peer Review that I don't understand why many Wikipedians think the photos of the girls doing good is promotional and the photos of Sex Positions informational. And now I also don't understand why many (some?) Wikipedians think that this is written as the Catholic Encyclopaedia would. Please! It won't even cross the mind of the CE to argue at length the utterly ridiculous notion that one of its strongly supported Catholic prelatures is a cult!! It's self-contradictory! It's irrational!! Untrue!! The CE won't refer to one of Church's much loved institutions as a right-wing fundamentalist secret society!! It won't try to use the arguments of the Catholics for Free Choice. It won't quote Urquhart and Hutchinson, etc. Hey guys, this article is much more of Wikipedia than other Featured Articles that are monopolized --tyrannized-- by ONE POV. Rabadur 09:58, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Neutrality = right proportion between credible experts and representation
I am happy to see the photos that Walter and Lafem have put in. Aside from making the article much, much more attractive and readable, this article is at last establishing the correct proportions based on Jimbo's NPOV rules. I am also happy that some people have erased the defensive sounding captions for supposedly NPOV purposes. The huge disparity between the two sides, which as Davidson says might even show a legitimate basis --on the part of some people-- for elimination of the criticisms, is a very strong basis for this "lop-sided" treatment. Of course, let me clarify that I agree that the minority has the right to be heard. But it should be clear over-all that they are part of a small minority. Up to now though there seems to have been not much attempt to cut the length of the criticisms which Davidson suggested as one of the two options. I will see what I can do regarding this.
Thomas S. Major
02:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
If we are talking about credibility and use the comparative list of Marax (John Paul II, Bryan Wilson vs Tammy DiNicola, C. del Tapia, etc) then it's 100-0. But if we are talking about representation and use Lafem's world-wide representation (secularist writers vs religious people around the world), then it could go to 90-10 or 80-20. So we end up with an average of 95-5 or 90-10: wow! your gut feel jives with this. Still, since there seems to be a consensus to air the negative views, these proportions can be stretched to 80-20, but that's just me talking... Others might just want to stick to your 95-5 or 90-10. Thomas S. Major 02:38, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
This is ok. It's a good move to have clear guidelines. I suppose this is possible now especially with the increase in break out articles where, as Samuel Howard put it, the disputes can be isolated--and aired accordingly. R Davidson 12:03, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Keep in mind also that all the four investigative journalists --non-members--who have intimate knowledge about Opus Dei and who wrote books not mere articles, take the majority position: V. Messori, John Allen, Thierry, and W. West who later became a member. Lafem 01:08, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Piotrus. Yes! I plan to propose that a part of the bibliography at least a basic core appear in the main article. Thanks again! :) Thomas S. Major 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest the removal of the section regarding The DaVinci Code as mostly irrelevant to the purpose of portraying Opus Dei and as more accurate belonging with a discussion of the book itself. Its being a work of fiction means that any and all claims and allegations included within are made to further the plot of the novel, not as a form of attack or commentary on any organization.
A mention of the reference and responses thereto are appropriate, but any further indepth discussion ought to take place on the page for the novel itself, where claims of its veracity can be placed into proper context.
-- Agamemnon2 13:59, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Rama and Zantastik, for responding. The Christ-centeredness is discussed in a subsection above that. Let's see what we can do about your comment...:) Thomas S. Major 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the tutorial, Bishonen! I will take your example into account when I try to rewrite the article to make it more encyclopedic and have more flow. I made a slight change to your version, but it has been useful. Thomas S. Major 02:40, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
OK. I see the point. In reality there were many in-text references with dates and pages.But they were removed as a way of cutting the bulk of the text. I will try to bring them back.
I will also work on inserting footnotes. However, I found this in the Wikipedia:Cite sources:
"On the other hand, in-text references can be very useful if there is a long list of references and it is not clear which one the reader should consult for more information on a specific topic. In-text citations can also be valuable if there is doubt or disagreement on some point—you can parenthetically indicate exactly what source made a particular claim. (Articles that involve strong opposing viewpoints may need to have numerous in-text citations for this reason.)
Footnotes are sometimes useful for relevant text that would distract from the main point if embedded in the main text, yet are helpful in explaining a point in greater detail. Such footnotes can be especially helpful for later fact-checkers, to ensure that the article text is well-supported. Thus, using footnotes to provide useful clarifying information outside the main point is fine where this is needed.
Footnotes can also be used to simply cite sources, and there are some styles which do so. However, citations using numbered footnotes are controversial in Wikipedia. The current MediaWiki software does not support footnotes very well. In particular, automatic numbering of footnotes conflicts with a common editing practice of bare URLs in single square brackets and the same footnote cannot be used multiple times with automatic numbering, rather a new number and note has to be used. In contrast, the software is currently quite sufficient to support the parenthetical author citation format suggested above."
The neutrality policy states:
"NPOV policy means that we say something like this: Many adherents of this faith believe X, which they believe that members of this group have always believed; however, due to the acceptance of some findings (say which) by modern historians and archaeologists (say which), other adherents (say which) of this faith now believe Z." Thomas S. Major 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
As regards the Catholic/Opus Dei POV, please read R Davidson's exchange with Eloquence regarding the Catholic tone of the article. That is the key to understand the neutrality of this article. That has to be resolved first before we can talk about NPOV here. Thanks for your comments. Thomas S. Major 00:05, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Additional Responses from Talk Page
I would like to explain the enmeshing of external and internal which eeblet saw. My take on how this article is approaching this material is this: it is trying to enter each camp from the best angle it has and using the leading proponents of each camp.
Thus, most of the perspectives are provided by writings of theologians about the subject. There is a plethora of literature on OD theology, the most profound of which is Holiness and the World, where prominent theologians like Ratzinger and William May have contributed. I intend to put this citation in the text since this is one of the most important books about the subject. Of course, it contains the theological writings of Escriva. He said he can only write about God....so they have to be theological...
Also many canon lawyers have already stated that the theological perspective is also the best way to understand Opus Dei. That is why one of the best books about Opus Dei is that of Pedro Rodriguez, Ocariz and Illanes: Opus Dei in the Church. Those are heavyweight theologians studying this phenomenon. Thus, this article puts the prelatic discussions after teachings. The external prelature status follows logically from the Opus Dei theological spirit.
Also, since the editors of this article have identified a majority position based on an analysis of experts, the minority camp accusations have to be answered by the majority position.
I also saw how the anti-cult part grew. There were quite a number of things written against Opus Dei as cult before I arrived last March: love bombing, threats, mortification of the flesh, cilice, blessed be pain, aggressive recruitment, etc. From what I know, those accusations were not touched at all, they were treated like sacred pieces and they kept on growing. Yes, they were edited for brevity recently and summarized. By me. But it was because of space agreements. And the main essence continues to be there. And I also treated them with much reverence. Marax 14:36, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Religious experience must be approached with religous categories
In my opinion, the deeper the understanding of the search for sanctity which defines Opus Dei, the deeper the understanding of Opus Dei will be. Lafem 02:15, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Great point, Lafem, and great edits. Let me explain further what you have just put down so well, but from another point of view. This article is about a Catholic organization studying first its origins and its main influencer (the Catholic Church), its place in the Church and what the Church wants from it, then second studying Opus Dei's influence and reach outside the Church. Since the origins of something determines its nature and all the aspects flowing from this nature, the greater part of the article should be devoted to Opus Dei in the Catholic Church, i.e. Opus Dei in its origins, its nature and rationale. There are 6 sections tackling all these. The last section tackles Opus Dei in Society: aims, members in society, work they do for society, paradigms for action, politics.
The first 6 sections develop (1) Opus Dei's creation within the Church and its role within it: a Catholic Catechesis, (2) Its Catholic teachings based on its specific lay spirituality, (3) Its structure within the Catholic Church, (4) Its Catholic Doctrine and Training Program, (5) Its Catholic Demands, their rationale and consequences. The last two sections do not overlap per se. Using the terminology of the sociologists of religion, "Doctrine" refers to its "qualitative aspects", and "Demands" refers to its "quantitative aspects" and its rationale.
I will do some more edits based on what I have just written. Perhaps the problem lies in the length of the treatment of these sections and not the sectioning per se as I wrote above. In fact, I've already done some work to make them more brief. But let's see what else can be done. And yes, thanks to Mozzerati for pushing more improvement. :-) Marax 09:48, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the article lingers a little too long on some of the more "sensational" criticisms. On the other hand I noticed two media pieces in the last fortnight that cited this piece as an important source (both Australian), and one of them called it called it even-handed, so what do I know? Re the comment that a long piece on Opus Dei should contain at most a brief mention of its aims, I can't help thinking that would be rather as if the article on General Motors were to contain no more than a brief mention that it sells cars. Asoane 20:17, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, jiy. I will study what I can do about your comments. Thanks again. :) Thomas S. Major 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
As regards the Catholic/Opus Dei POV, kindly read R Davidson's exchange with Eloquence regarding the Catholic tone of the article. That is the key to understand the neutrality of this article. That has to be resolved first before we can talk about NPOV here. The editors resolved in the Talk Page that the images should be proportionate to the credible experts view. Thanks for your comments. Thomas S. Major 00:05, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Mark. Sorry I was too much in a hurry I was not able to answer you properly. Yes I totally agree with you as regards weasel and peacock terms. Will also work on that :) Thomas S. Major 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks a million for all your comments: I see we still have a lot of work to do
Thanks a million for all those who spent some time to give detailed ways of improving this article to achieve feature article status. I am truly grateful, and I appreciate your efforts.
It is clear from the comments that this article has to do a lot of work in terms of attributions, footnotes, formatting, copyediting, style, flow, etc. etc. etc.
I just need your help to resolving once and for all the basic issue raised by my friend R Davidson as regards neutrality. It's an issue which will continue to hound this article if it is not resolved.
The basic issue is how this article is implementing the following NPOV policies:
From Jimbo:
From the NPOV tutorial:
Right now the editors are one in saying that the majority position is held by the following credible experts: reputable investigative journalists who studied Opus Dei: (John Allen, V. Messori, Thierry, West), theologians and philosophers: (James V. Schall, Fuenmayor, Rodriguez, Ocariz, et al), Sociology of religion scholars: (atheist Bryan R. Wilson, protestant Dr. Kliever and Jenkins), Catholic officials (John Paul II, Benedict XVI, JPI, bishops, etc.) ,St. Josemaria himself (JE=OD according to Samuel Howard and other scholars), and other Catholic leaders, and non-Catholic leaders (I intend to collect these as well in a separate sub-page).
According to the editors, the view of these experts and their credibility and expertise has an overwhelming and lopsided advantage over the other positions in terms of their view on Opus Dei, and thus most of their views are quoted or reported, giving what some people said is a "Catholic" tone to the article, or a “Pope’s point of view,” even if some of the sources are atheists or Protestants.
Should the editors change their opinion on who has the expertise? Are there other experts on these subject who should be given the majority position? That's basically the question of my friend, Davidson. And we still do not have a clear answer.
I need your help to resolve this basic issue. Of course, we can also assume that "silence means consent." But I'd prefer a clearer "outside" opinion on this.
Needless to say, I see the great need to address the other important issues brought up here to improve the article. Thanks again for your help. Thomas S. Major 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
This sub-page is for the improvements done and comments given to move the the Opus Dei article towards Feature Article Status.
This is partially --very partially-- self nom because there are many others who helped in writing this article. From what I've read in the Talk Page, the article swung from an edit war last year to a stalemate, then a short NPOV issue last April due to some overenthusiastic newbies, and since May, a time of harmony and peace when NPOV rules were quoted, ratios established, and details worked on. It has grown since then. It has been under Peer Review since September 9: Peer Review of Opus Dei article And changes have been made based on the feedback. Please see Talk Page as well, for it contains many explanations on why the article appears as it is. Thomas S. Major 05:53, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
I checked out Wikipedia:Cite sources and it answers some of the questions. Please see below my reply to Bishonen. Thanks. :) Thomas S. Major 00:05, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Additional discussions from the Talk Page
Since people kept silent regarding the question of Thomas S. Major and of Davidson whether this article is using the credible experts, we presume that the answer is yes. With the new book of Allen (see above), the overwhelming majority position has been further strengthened. If we presume that there is both internal and external assent to this position, then the structure and main contents are correct in substance.
Thus, the penultimate stage for this article is to ensure that the intro summarizes the contents of this article. (The last stage is to ensure that all the details of attribution and flow are taken care of. ) Marax (forgot to sign last time: sorry)
I wrote the paragraphs. I forgot to sign, sorry. I fully agree with Bishonen that the question of credible experts has to be taken with full seriousness. It is indeed the central question. That is why I understand the plea of Tom Major. That is also why I waited for many days before I posted what I posted above. Today it is more than a week since Davidson asked Eloquence and Giano that question. The question continues to be unanswered.
I don't think though that citing policies is automatically a case of ruleslawyering--an attempt to annoy or to be pedantic, or to use the rule for personal benefit. I believe it is a sincere attempt to know the limits, to have a sense of order, to avoid anarchy, to be rational, reasonable and objective in our discussion, to be at peace while we work on this.
Again, I agree with you Bishonen that the question on credible experts is a serious question and has to be dealt with seriously. I hope you can help us figure that question out. As Davidson said, we are ready to change this article if necessary. I can personally say that I am sufficiently detached from it. But this objectivity also propels the mind to do what this encyclopedia is aimed at: to "create a reliable and free encyclopedia—indeed, the largest encyclopedia in history, in both breadth and depth. Wikipedia has some policies and guidelines that help us to work toward that common goal." Wikipedia is a "collection of synthesized knowledge presented from a neutral point of view," and here "research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is strongly encouraged." I understand that "It's an obligation of Wikipedia to its readers that the information they read here be reliable and reputable, and so we rely only on credible or reputable published sources." (From No Original Research.) Marax 03:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi, Marax. In response to your request on my talk page, I've re-read the FAC discussion carefully, to try to figure out exactly how your reasoning above relates to it, and I have to say I'm a bit appalled by the consistency with which the article's defenders responding there assume on WP:FAC as well that silence gives consent. To improve the article, you really need to disabuse yourselves of that notion! Rama and Zantastic did not tacitly agree to the proposition that the sentence "Opus Dei's Christ-centeredness urges Christians to live like Christ in everything, even if their behaviour "clashes" with a "paganized environment"" can be NPOV'd by inserting "supporters say" into it. They merely didn't respond "in time". Perhaps they had other things to do..? Perhaps they gave up because nobody seemed to be listening? Anyway, when it was explicitly stated on FAC that they had tacitly agreed, they turned up, to say "not at all". I would have thought that that incident would suggest the dangers of your assumptions.
Eloquence and Giano did not respond to your rather imperious challenges to go read more ("I would like to ask both of you --and the others -- to read the NPOV tutorial rules"; "Kindly read the Talk Page of Opus": they went away, having said their say. I don't know Eloquence, but I happen to know Giano, and know how busy he is in Real Life. You guys don't sound on FAC quite like you realize that Wikipedia is a hobby, a spare-time activity, for the editors you try to browbeat (that's what it amounts to, IMO) into reading more--even, incredibly, into reading the whole content of your bibliography!
If one looks at the extensive bibliography, the proportions and the structure of the article reflect existing scholarship: a great deal of literature on theology, some juridical studies, historical and sociological literature, and some cult and anti-Opus Dei issues. The article also reflects the contents of the monographs. Anybody who wants to propose changes to the structure of the article should read these books written by credible experts." ( User:Marax, support vote.)
Let me say that I doubt any individual has read all these books, and I assume you're not seriously proposing that FAC editors go read them before commenting. The alternative meaning of what you say seems to be "Since you haven't read the books in the bibliography, you don't get to comment on the structure." Right...? Now that's not like inviting advice from the community, it's more like trying to preemptively prove that any outside criticism of the article's structure will necessarily be invalid.
When I read the FAC vote in order to add my own 2c, I speed-read it, and I was struck by the many courteous expressions, thanks and so on, from the article's defenders. Now that I look more carefully, this urbanity looks like a bit of a sham. You guys don't give an inch. You expect to be able to argue, bully (frankly), and, yes, ruleslawyer the commenters into withdrawing their objections. They didn't, though. I repeat: objections on FAC that haven't been withdrawn are assumed to still stand. That's how that page works, and it's the only possible way for it to work: articles aren't supposed to become featured merely because their proponents never stop arguing.
Iff Eloquence and Giano (and I, and a few more) had been convinced into withdrawing our original objections,
Opus Dei would be Featured now. Because of the intransigence of the defenders of status quo, I doubt that it ever will be.
This paragraph on the FAC vote worries me:
Kindly read the Talk Page of Opus where the editors have discussed (based on Wikipedia method of consensus) who the reputable, credible experts are in this field who use the common methods of the field. If both of you can mention other credible experts on the field, then all of us will listen, and then we can work out a consensus based on the above rules. If we agree that their credible expertise is above the following experts who support each other: John Paul II, Benedict XVI, John Allen, V. Messori, James V. Schall, Bryan R. Wilson, Dr. Kliever, St. Josemaria himself, and the Catholic leaders whose testimonies are found in a separate article, then I suppose we will just have to decide to give them more space than these people, and change the whole tone of this article. R Davidson 14:11, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
The trouble is that R. Davidson swallows the camel "the field" in passing, before going on to argue about some gnats. Which field? It's only if the field is "Catholic exegesis" or "Catholic theology" or suchlike that popes, or José Maria, are the experts. In the Catholic Encyclopedia, they surely are the experts, but, as Eloquence pointed out, that's not what Wikipedia is. Here, popes represent one POV; there are other equally valid POVs. Therefore R. Davidson's implicit assumption that popes are better than other experts because they are the ultimate authorities on Catholic theology is fundamentally misconceived. Popes need to have their say in the article, but because of their great "inside" authority, they actually need more, not less, balancing from the outside.
I hope I don't sound too negative. I'm actually trying to help. This is my best shot, though; I'm afraid I won't have time to dialogue any more. I wish I did, but it's the third time I've written--twice here, once on FAC--and that's it, sorry, I've got articles to write. Best wishes,
Bishonen |
talk
21:49, 5 October 2005 (UTC).
I am thankful for her feedback. I see her point that the article seems to have been written from only one point of view. People here on the other hand see that this is being written taking into account all the POVs together while giving a lopsided preponderance to a point of view which is supported by majority of experts--Catholic, non-catholic, and non-believer. I suppose one direction this article has to look at is to look for experts who, as fuddlemark says, have "no relationship towards OD, the Catholic Church, or any anti-cult group." This is also the preferred road offered by the NPOV policy:
We have to search for this type of sources. Marax 06:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Allen, Messori, Wilson, West, Kliever, Thierry, Rodriguez, Friedlander are not the Pope. Urquhart, Walsh, Hutchinson, Moncada are not the Pope.
I admire your courage, Bishonen. But clearly you are incorrect.
You are correct, Marax. But there shouldn't be any inferiority complex for the experts this article has. They are the most credible experts available and we report in proportion to the credibility of the experts.
Please see what I wrote below. This article is definitely not written from a Catholic Encyclopaedia point of view. Rabadur 07:47, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I said in the Peer Review that I don't understand why many Wikipedians think the photos of the girls doing good is promotional and the photos of Sex Positions informational. And now I also don't understand why many (some?) Wikipedians think that this is written as the Catholic Encyclopaedia would. Please! It won't even cross the mind of the CE to argue at length the utterly ridiculous notion that one of its strongly supported Catholic prelatures is a cult!! It's self-contradictory! It's irrational!! Untrue!! The CE won't refer to one of Church's much loved institutions as a right-wing fundamentalist secret society!! It won't try to use the arguments of the Catholics for Free Choice. It won't quote Urquhart and Hutchinson, etc. Hey guys, this article is much more of Wikipedia than other Featured Articles that are monopolized --tyrannized-- by ONE POV. Rabadur 09:58, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
Neutrality = right proportion between credible experts and representation
I am happy to see the photos that Walter and Lafem have put in. Aside from making the article much, much more attractive and readable, this article is at last establishing the correct proportions based on Jimbo's NPOV rules. I am also happy that some people have erased the defensive sounding captions for supposedly NPOV purposes. The huge disparity between the two sides, which as Davidson says might even show a legitimate basis --on the part of some people-- for elimination of the criticisms, is a very strong basis for this "lop-sided" treatment. Of course, let me clarify that I agree that the minority has the right to be heard. But it should be clear over-all that they are part of a small minority. Up to now though there seems to have been not much attempt to cut the length of the criticisms which Davidson suggested as one of the two options. I will see what I can do regarding this.
Thomas S. Major
02:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
If we are talking about credibility and use the comparative list of Marax (John Paul II, Bryan Wilson vs Tammy DiNicola, C. del Tapia, etc) then it's 100-0. But if we are talking about representation and use Lafem's world-wide representation (secularist writers vs religious people around the world), then it could go to 90-10 or 80-20. So we end up with an average of 95-5 or 90-10: wow! your gut feel jives with this. Still, since there seems to be a consensus to air the negative views, these proportions can be stretched to 80-20, but that's just me talking... Others might just want to stick to your 95-5 or 90-10. Thomas S. Major 02:38, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
This is ok. It's a good move to have clear guidelines. I suppose this is possible now especially with the increase in break out articles where, as Samuel Howard put it, the disputes can be isolated--and aired accordingly. R Davidson 12:03, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Keep in mind also that all the four investigative journalists --non-members--who have intimate knowledge about Opus Dei and who wrote books not mere articles, take the majority position: V. Messori, John Allen, Thierry, and W. West who later became a member. Lafem 01:08, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Piotrus. Yes! I plan to propose that a part of the bibliography at least a basic core appear in the main article. Thanks again! :) Thomas S. Major 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
I would suggest the removal of the section regarding The DaVinci Code as mostly irrelevant to the purpose of portraying Opus Dei and as more accurate belonging with a discussion of the book itself. Its being a work of fiction means that any and all claims and allegations included within are made to further the plot of the novel, not as a form of attack or commentary on any organization.
A mention of the reference and responses thereto are appropriate, but any further indepth discussion ought to take place on the page for the novel itself, where claims of its veracity can be placed into proper context.
-- Agamemnon2 13:59, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Rama and Zantastik, for responding. The Christ-centeredness is discussed in a subsection above that. Let's see what we can do about your comment...:) Thomas S. Major 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the tutorial, Bishonen! I will take your example into account when I try to rewrite the article to make it more encyclopedic and have more flow. I made a slight change to your version, but it has been useful. Thomas S. Major 02:40, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
OK. I see the point. In reality there were many in-text references with dates and pages.But they were removed as a way of cutting the bulk of the text. I will try to bring them back.
I will also work on inserting footnotes. However, I found this in the Wikipedia:Cite sources:
"On the other hand, in-text references can be very useful if there is a long list of references and it is not clear which one the reader should consult for more information on a specific topic. In-text citations can also be valuable if there is doubt or disagreement on some point—you can parenthetically indicate exactly what source made a particular claim. (Articles that involve strong opposing viewpoints may need to have numerous in-text citations for this reason.)
Footnotes are sometimes useful for relevant text that would distract from the main point if embedded in the main text, yet are helpful in explaining a point in greater detail. Such footnotes can be especially helpful for later fact-checkers, to ensure that the article text is well-supported. Thus, using footnotes to provide useful clarifying information outside the main point is fine where this is needed.
Footnotes can also be used to simply cite sources, and there are some styles which do so. However, citations using numbered footnotes are controversial in Wikipedia. The current MediaWiki software does not support footnotes very well. In particular, automatic numbering of footnotes conflicts with a common editing practice of bare URLs in single square brackets and the same footnote cannot be used multiple times with automatic numbering, rather a new number and note has to be used. In contrast, the software is currently quite sufficient to support the parenthetical author citation format suggested above."
The neutrality policy states:
"NPOV policy means that we say something like this: Many adherents of this faith believe X, which they believe that members of this group have always believed; however, due to the acceptance of some findings (say which) by modern historians and archaeologists (say which), other adherents (say which) of this faith now believe Z." Thomas S. Major 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
As regards the Catholic/Opus Dei POV, please read R Davidson's exchange with Eloquence regarding the Catholic tone of the article. That is the key to understand the neutrality of this article. That has to be resolved first before we can talk about NPOV here. Thanks for your comments. Thomas S. Major 00:05, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Additional Responses from Talk Page
I would like to explain the enmeshing of external and internal which eeblet saw. My take on how this article is approaching this material is this: it is trying to enter each camp from the best angle it has and using the leading proponents of each camp.
Thus, most of the perspectives are provided by writings of theologians about the subject. There is a plethora of literature on OD theology, the most profound of which is Holiness and the World, where prominent theologians like Ratzinger and William May have contributed. I intend to put this citation in the text since this is one of the most important books about the subject. Of course, it contains the theological writings of Escriva. He said he can only write about God....so they have to be theological...
Also many canon lawyers have already stated that the theological perspective is also the best way to understand Opus Dei. That is why one of the best books about Opus Dei is that of Pedro Rodriguez, Ocariz and Illanes: Opus Dei in the Church. Those are heavyweight theologians studying this phenomenon. Thus, this article puts the prelatic discussions after teachings. The external prelature status follows logically from the Opus Dei theological spirit.
Also, since the editors of this article have identified a majority position based on an analysis of experts, the minority camp accusations have to be answered by the majority position.
I also saw how the anti-cult part grew. There were quite a number of things written against Opus Dei as cult before I arrived last March: love bombing, threats, mortification of the flesh, cilice, blessed be pain, aggressive recruitment, etc. From what I know, those accusations were not touched at all, they were treated like sacred pieces and they kept on growing. Yes, they were edited for brevity recently and summarized. By me. But it was because of space agreements. And the main essence continues to be there. And I also treated them with much reverence. Marax 14:36, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Religious experience must be approached with religous categories
In my opinion, the deeper the understanding of the search for sanctity which defines Opus Dei, the deeper the understanding of Opus Dei will be. Lafem 02:15, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Great point, Lafem, and great edits. Let me explain further what you have just put down so well, but from another point of view. This article is about a Catholic organization studying first its origins and its main influencer (the Catholic Church), its place in the Church and what the Church wants from it, then second studying Opus Dei's influence and reach outside the Church. Since the origins of something determines its nature and all the aspects flowing from this nature, the greater part of the article should be devoted to Opus Dei in the Catholic Church, i.e. Opus Dei in its origins, its nature and rationale. There are 6 sections tackling all these. The last section tackles Opus Dei in Society: aims, members in society, work they do for society, paradigms for action, politics.
The first 6 sections develop (1) Opus Dei's creation within the Church and its role within it: a Catholic Catechesis, (2) Its Catholic teachings based on its specific lay spirituality, (3) Its structure within the Catholic Church, (4) Its Catholic Doctrine and Training Program, (5) Its Catholic Demands, their rationale and consequences. The last two sections do not overlap per se. Using the terminology of the sociologists of religion, "Doctrine" refers to its "qualitative aspects", and "Demands" refers to its "quantitative aspects" and its rationale.
I will do some more edits based on what I have just written. Perhaps the problem lies in the length of the treatment of these sections and not the sectioning per se as I wrote above. In fact, I've already done some work to make them more brief. But let's see what else can be done. And yes, thanks to Mozzerati for pushing more improvement. :-) Marax 09:48, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the article lingers a little too long on some of the more "sensational" criticisms. On the other hand I noticed two media pieces in the last fortnight that cited this piece as an important source (both Australian), and one of them called it called it even-handed, so what do I know? Re the comment that a long piece on Opus Dei should contain at most a brief mention of its aims, I can't help thinking that would be rather as if the article on General Motors were to contain no more than a brief mention that it sells cars. Asoane 20:17, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, jiy. I will study what I can do about your comments. Thanks again. :) Thomas S. Major 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
As regards the Catholic/Opus Dei POV, kindly read R Davidson's exchange with Eloquence regarding the Catholic tone of the article. That is the key to understand the neutrality of this article. That has to be resolved first before we can talk about NPOV here. The editors resolved in the Talk Page that the images should be proportionate to the credible experts view. Thanks for your comments. Thomas S. Major 00:05, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Mark. Sorry I was too much in a hurry I was not able to answer you properly. Yes I totally agree with you as regards weasel and peacock terms. Will also work on that :) Thomas S. Major 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks a million for all your comments: I see we still have a lot of work to do
Thanks a million for all those who spent some time to give detailed ways of improving this article to achieve feature article status. I am truly grateful, and I appreciate your efforts.
It is clear from the comments that this article has to do a lot of work in terms of attributions, footnotes, formatting, copyediting, style, flow, etc. etc. etc.
I just need your help to resolving once and for all the basic issue raised by my friend R Davidson as regards neutrality. It's an issue which will continue to hound this article if it is not resolved.
The basic issue is how this article is implementing the following NPOV policies:
From Jimbo:
From the NPOV tutorial:
Right now the editors are one in saying that the majority position is held by the following credible experts: reputable investigative journalists who studied Opus Dei: (John Allen, V. Messori, Thierry, West), theologians and philosophers: (James V. Schall, Fuenmayor, Rodriguez, Ocariz, et al), Sociology of religion scholars: (atheist Bryan R. Wilson, protestant Dr. Kliever and Jenkins), Catholic officials (John Paul II, Benedict XVI, JPI, bishops, etc.) ,St. Josemaria himself (JE=OD according to Samuel Howard and other scholars), and other Catholic leaders, and non-Catholic leaders (I intend to collect these as well in a separate sub-page).
According to the editors, the view of these experts and their credibility and expertise has an overwhelming and lopsided advantage over the other positions in terms of their view on Opus Dei, and thus most of their views are quoted or reported, giving what some people said is a "Catholic" tone to the article, or a “Pope’s point of view,” even if some of the sources are atheists or Protestants.
Should the editors change their opinion on who has the expertise? Are there other experts on these subject who should be given the majority position? That's basically the question of my friend, Davidson. And we still do not have a clear answer.
I need your help to resolve this basic issue. Of course, we can also assume that "silence means consent." But I'd prefer a clearer "outside" opinion on this.
Needless to say, I see the great need to address the other important issues brought up here to improve the article. Thanks again for your help. Thomas S. Major 02:07, 28 September 2005 (UTC)