This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Wouldn't Operation Wisła or Operation Vistula be more correct? Directly translating the Polish word "akcja" into English "action" does not convey the correct meaning. Furthermore, it sounds uncomfortably close to the German aktion.
To see my point, consider that Akcja Burza is usually translated as Operation Tempest, not Action Tempest or Action Burza.
Another example: Unternehmen Barbarossa is translated into English as Operation Barbarossa, not Enterprise Barbarossa which would be the literal meaning (see dictionary entry).
Balcer 20:06, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, I gave to it some thought before choosing the name. Here are my conclusions:
1. both "Wisla" Action and "Wisla" Operation (and also the same variants with Vistula) give similar number of google hits
2. Leon Kieres used the word "Action" referring to both "Wisła" Action and Anti-Polish Action OUN-UPA 1
3. definition from the American Heritage Dictionary 2 police action - A localized military action undertaken without a formal declaration of war. Which I think is the case here. It was an action undertaken by government against its own citizens, not a military operation against a hostile army. -- SylwiaS 21:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
But why the latinized "Vistula," and not the Polish "Wisła"? It is a Polish river, and we're no longer in the Middle Ages. logologist 23:30, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Some examples, availabe on Wikipedia, of " operations" that are not even military in nature — bearing out LuiKhuntek's observation above: " Operation Paperclip," " Operation Peter Pan," " Operation Provide Relief."
Conversely, the Polish authorities at the time may intentionally have used akcja to avoid military terminology and make Operation Wisła sound more like some sort of "civic action." logologist 21:00, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I have also seen reference to a US Navy program, likewise not of a belligerent nature, called " Operation KISS." (The KISS principle, incidentally, might be applicable in our Operation Wisła context.) logologist 21:11, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
The term "action" is, of course, used to denote "combat" or "a military encounter," but is not used in the name of a specific plan or project, e.g. " Operation Crossroads." logologist 21:36, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Some Google Books magic: Operation Wisla - 5 hits, Operation Vistula - 9 hits, Action Vistula - 5 hits, Action Wisla - no hits. Therefore seems that the most common name would be Operation Vistula, after all. See also discussion at Talk:Operation Tempest. Maybe we can devise a naming convention, similar to what is discussed at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions/Geographic names?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:17, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
All right, I assume we have reached consensus to rename it to "Operation Wisła", correct ? -- Lysy ( talk) 12:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Done - I deleted the redirect and moved this page there. Can you guys fix the double redirects? I don't have time right now. In future, such moves can be requested on Wikipedia:Requested moves.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I would still recommend Vistula. There is a Polish Wikipedia, but this the English Wikipedia. The Polish orthograpphy , particularly using the "ł" is a problem for native speakers of English, and for computerized searches. The river is usually called the Vistula in English, and it is an international river. I would think that this is similar to calling that Italian city Rome and not ROMA in Wikipedia. Pustelnik 12:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Removed, for clarification:
Executed? Died in prison? In the bed? Who and how counted "majority?" mikka (t) 17:13, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Nonprofessional appearance. Please put TO-DO things into talk pages instead. mikka (t) 20:22, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Since it was mentioned here, I would be interested to learn more about "Józef Piłsudski's forces plundering of the Western Ukraine". I have not really heard about the plundering aspect. Is it factual ? (BTW: maybe it's worth an article of its own ?) -- Lysy ( talk) 19:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
В сентябре 1919 года войска украинской Директории попали на Подолье в так называемый «треугольник смерти». Они были зажаты между красными русскими Ленина и Троцкого на северо-востоке, белыми русскими Деникина на юго-востоке и поляками на западе. Смерть смотрела в глаза. И не только людям — всему только что рожденному государству. Поэтому, верховный атаман Симон Петлюра просто вынужден был или согласиться на предложенный Пилсудским союз, или фактически капитулировать перед большевиками, как сделали тогда или через год-два Владимир Винниченко и Михаил Грушевский. Решение это — очень болезненное. Польская шляхта была историческим врагом украинского народа. Кровоточила свежая рана ЗУНР (Western Ukr. Republic) — именно в это время пилсудчики распинали украинскую Восточную Галичину (распинали exact translation "were crussifying", loosely means "torturing" or "plundering"). Но все же Петлюра согласился на мир и союз, признав украинско-польской границей будущую границу советско-польскую. Следует отметить, что при этом Пилсудский получал меньше земель, нежели ему предложил Ленин, и в придачу еще и войну с огромной Россией. Надднепрянцы же фактически бросали на произвол судьбы в беде своих братьев-галичан. Но Петлюра решил использовать последний шанс сохранить державу — в союзе с поляками. Попробовал. Было не суждено.
-- Irpen 19:17, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
OK, you can add a "dubious" tag to this claim for now if you wish. I will try to find more on this later. As soon as a bigger problem plundering the Ukrainian topics on Wikipedia is solved (which I see happening soon) I will have more time, I hope, if the work and personal matters allow. -- Irpen 20:42, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, may I say that I haven't heard about the Massacre of Poles in Volhynia from the Ukrainian or Russian sorces either. That only proves, that any national historiography is inherently biased. We certainly broaden our worldviews by participating in this international project. -- Irpen 15:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Earlier I was asked for more scholary metnions of the "brutality" of the suppression of Ukrainian independence by Pilsudski. We are talking only about the Western Ukrainian Republic here as mauradeering during the Kiev Offensive is a separate question. Here is the quote from
Quote:
I will try to find time to translate that, if needed. -- Irpen 01:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
It means "desperate". I left a message at MichaelZ' talk asking him to translate this paragraph. As a native EN-speaker, unlike myself, he will do that faster and more grammatically. -- Irpen 02:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Пощада means "mercy". "людське відношення" means "human treatment. I corrected in your text. Thanks so much for your effort! -- Irpen 05:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Many thanks. Still, it does not mention any brutality in Galicia. Do we have any specific information on what was this brutality ? -- Lysy ( talk) 16:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Irpen, you have added this link to "Формування модерної української нації" but this is very broad. Is there any more specific part of it that should be looked at, that would support the "brutality" ? -- Lysy ( talk) 16:51, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
In Serczyk's book, I've read that both sides of the conflict were desperate and brutal, which basically supports what you wrote, but still is quite general. Maybe we could try to formulate the sentence in another way ? -- Lysy ( talk) 16:57, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I have a question. In the beginning Akcja Wisła had another name. It was planned together with a similar operation which was undertaken by Russians in Ukraine. If I remember correctly, one was named "East" and the other "West". Does anyone know anything about the other action? Is there an article on Wiki about it?-- SylwiaS 16:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I move the quote here-- SylwiaS 18:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
The New York Times, April 18, 1946 wrote : SANOK, Poland, April 17 – "A strong, well-organized and elusive band of Ukrainian nationalists and German deserters, estimated at more than 3,000 under the leadership of a German colonel, in a fortnight have succeeded in transforming this sector of the Carpathian foothills of old Galicia into a virtual partisan stronghold. With the burning of three large villages on a single night two weeks ago, they have made 10,000 of this area's total pre-war population of 135,000 homeless and are resisting with complete success all efforts to quell what is tantamount to open insurrection. By burning an average of two bridges a day for the last three months, they have completely disrupted communications in this thickly populated but primitive backwoods country and have made it virtually impossible for security police and two Polish divisions to rout them out. By stealing cattle and demanding tributes of a million zlotys [about $10,000] they appear capable of holding out indefinitely in their wooded hide-outs ...".
I moved the following messages from my talk page since they belong to the article-- SylwiaS 18:48, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
(editing; however, I would like to see a source for the NYT article) ps. Pani Sylwio ! bardzo proszę o dokładne przetłumaczenie tego teksu na język polski 17:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC) Ruth
Guys, could you use English. I understand Polish writing but with a significant degree of difficulty.
Sylwia, I checked the quote and it is correct. I can email you a full article if you send me your address via "email this user" link. I am not sure though, that such an extensive quote belongs to the article. -- Irpen 17:19, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I entirely agree that this lengthy quote doesn't belong to this article. The article is about the action of PL gov and not about the Ukrainian nationalists. Yes, the context is needed but should not be made look like a justification of the deportation of an entire population. Sylvia, I emailed the NYT article to you. -- Irpen 17:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Sylwia !, czy ja dobrze zrozumiałam, czy ty napisałaś, że nie wiesz co masz robić, jeśli ma się poczucie bezsensu tego co się robi, lepiej się za to nie zabierać. Ps. dlaczego p. Irpen odnosi ten art. z NYT do kwesti usprawiedliwienia przesiedleń, przeciaż w tej relacji nie ma o tym mowy, ja bym raczej połączyła ten wątek z problematyką kolaboracji ukraińskiej w okresie 1939-1944, np. z przęjęciem władzy na tych ziemiach przez Ukrainców od wrzes. 1939 do maja 1940, formowaniem oddz. Waffen SS w sanockiem oraz Małp. Wsch. etc etc... 19:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC) Ruth
I think I'd like to remove the book of Edward Prus from the references. I've scanned it before and while struck by it's quite emotional tone, I have included it as I thought it could be useful for future references. Now I have read it more carefully and I'm afraid the major agenda of this book was to whitewash the operation. The conclusion is almost that the relocations were blessful for the backward Ukrainians as they got better homes in the west of Poland. Anyway, if it stays it should be used as a reference with caution. -- Lysy ( talk) 14:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
"the brutal suppression of the post-World War I Ukrainian drive for self-determination in Galicia by Józef Piłsudski's forces."
Ummm.. Ok, let's say the Polish-Ukrainian regular wr was brutal suppression, but by PILSUDSKI's forces? I cannot quite get why his forces, not "Polish" or something like that? Szopen 11:31, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
It would be interesting to mention how many of the resettled were able to return, when, where and how. I know that some of the Lemko returned after 1956 but do not have any specific information. -- Lysy ( talk) 18:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Why is does it link to the NSZ page? Am I missing something? radek 22:28, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Was this operation carried out solely by Polish People's Army, or was Red Army also involved?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Officials from Soviet Ukraine cooperated in the action.-- MarekZob 15:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Would it be correct to call this an act of Ethnic cleansing in the opening paragraph? It fits the definitions given in the ethnic cleansing article, and in that article it is given as an example. Ostap 03:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Image:Jaworzno trahicznyj symwol.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 16:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
As it is now - ... carried out by the Soviet installed communist authorities in Poland with assistance... - the headline may make some people think the action was carried out by Soviet authorities. Please rework. -- 193.151.57.7 ( talk) 19:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for tweaking the headline. Also the article has no sources about assistance from Soviet Union and Communist Czechoslovakia - please correct. -- 193.151.57.7 ( talk) 08:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Lets see, on the one hand we have Timothy Snyder [11], and on the other hand we have Paweł5586 [12]. Interesting. I wonder who is the more credible source? I reverted back to Snyder, but perhaps Pawel is more reliable. Ostap 02:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Polish Instytute of Membrance for example. Dr Zbigniew Palski. Snyder is pro Ukrainian. This is the new look of Polish historians on operation Vistula, page VI is begining.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 09:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Stop playing with Wnuk. He has no respect in Poland. He wrote only one book in this topic, and with cooperation with Motyka. Wnuk is unexperienced historian who shuldnt judge other historians becouse he was involved in conflict beetwen them. He didnt participate in conferences, his text is out of date. Actually he is unknown in Poland. At present only a Gazeta Wyborcza is supporting Ukrainian nationalists. At present day even Motyka claims it was genocide.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 06:40, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
A number of editors will not allow this article to use the term "ethnic cleansing".
This term correct defines actions undertaken by Poles. It can correctly by used to sumarize various references including the Polish ones.
The dictionary definition of ethnic cleansing is:"
ethnic cleansing
–noun
the elimination of an unwanted ethnic group or groups from a society, as by genocide or forced emigration. Bobanni ( talk) 14:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
According to our article, the encyclopedia of Ukraine is created and run by the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies at the University of Alberta published by the University of Toronto Press. How is this "bad"? Ostap 20:47, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was move. Jafeluv ( talk) 12:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Operation Wisla → Operation Vistula — Title should reflect common English name as per Naming Conventions. Bobanni ( talk) 07:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok for me-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 11:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I want this here so everyone can see it: [15] Ostap 22:20, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
>forcible repatriation of Ukrainians from Poland to the Soviet Union (Ukrainian SSR and Siberia) >repatriation to Siberia Strange as for repatriation? Isn't it? Smells like another soviet repatriations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.192.216.149 ( talk) 05:04, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
140 000 ? Xx236 ( talk) 07:12, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Sources? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:40, 24 March 2015 (UTC) http://www.naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,29004,akcja-wisla---kontrowersje-trwaja-do-dzis.html 140 575. Xx236 ( talk) 08:20, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
During Operation Vistula conditions of the United Nations Charter of June 26, 1945 on the right of self-determination and international laws have been respected. [1] The deported farmers received financial help from the Polish government, and took over homes and farms left behind by the Germans, in most cases improving their living conditions due to increased size of newly acquired properties, brick buildings, and running water. [1]
I don't think this is representative of general historians' opinions to be in the lede. While in some cases this was true, many of the deported did not wish to leave, they did not get compensation and obviously violence had to be used to move'em (that's why this was a military operation). Volunteer Marek ( talk) 17:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Państwo polskie udzieliło także pomocy finansowej i rzeczowej przesiedlonym Ukraińcom. Uzyskali oni kredyty i zapomogi, kartki żywnościowe, żywność i zboże. Remontom poddano wiele zdewastowanych zabudowań, np. w województwie olsztyńskim wyremontowano 2427 budynków, a w szczecińskim – 717. Potrzeby były oczywiście dużo większe (np. w województwie olsztyńskim remontu wymagało około 10 000 budynków zasiedlonych przez Ukraińców), ale natychmiastowe ich zaspokojenie przerastało ówczesne możliwości państwa. W latach 1956-1958 władze udzieliły przesiedleńcom kredytów na łączną kwotę 170 mln zł, co na owe czasy było sumą olbrzymią. Znaczna część tych kredytów była bezzwrotna lub została częściowo umorzona w latach następnych. Nie wolno twierdzić, że przesiedlenia w ramach operacji „Wisła” były dobrodziejstwem. Przymus opuszczenia stron rodzinnych to tragedia dla tysięcy rodzin ukraińskich. Niemniej jednak podjęcie w ramach operacji zdecydowanych, radykalnych i niewątpliwie bolesnych działań przyczyniło się do zahamowania przelewu krwi po obu stronach i dało szansę na rozpoczęcie normalnego życia. — Dr. Łukasz Kamiński, IPN
I would really like to ask editors to please stop pushing an extreme Polish POV in this article. Operation Vistula is clearly a case of ethnic cleansing, with an entire population being removed without considering who actively took part in the UPA and who did not. What is most shocking is that the Polish Wikipedia article on Operation Vistula is much more balanced. I could translate that article if noone will edit it back to reflect their radical Polish nationalist POV (unlikely unfortunately) as it would be a massive improvement over the sad piece of text that we have now.
The Problems:
1. No Ukrainian sources cited. Only Polish sources, quite extreme ones at that. The Polish parliament has condemned Operation Vistula and none of the country's leaders have defended it. Most of the article rests on material from some Zbigniew Palski
2. Completely irrelevant comparison with the NKVD's anti-UPA operations. Information on these belongs in another article.
3. Internment of Ukrainian intelligencia in the Jaworzno camp completely ignored
4. Polish killings of Ukrainians post-1945 completely ignored. If the UPA conducted "terror actions", then the massacres at Pavlokoma etc can only be considered government-sponsored terrorism. This should be explained in the "Background" section
5. Very much focus on how "good" the Polish government was to those deported. No mention of dispersion of Ukrainian deportees to facilitate assimilation, discrimination of Ukrainians in communist Poland
I would be very happy if a Polish editor would like to work with me on improving this article, making it neutral, including more informaion and sources (not along the lines of all Ukrainian are murderers/the Poles are always right). Right now I'm going to revert it to the (very lacking) version that I wrote because this misinformation shouldn't be allowed to remain on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.228.135.71 ( talk) 21:30, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Wouldn't Operation Wisła or Operation Vistula be more correct? Directly translating the Polish word "akcja" into English "action" does not convey the correct meaning. Furthermore, it sounds uncomfortably close to the German aktion.
To see my point, consider that Akcja Burza is usually translated as Operation Tempest, not Action Tempest or Action Burza.
Another example: Unternehmen Barbarossa is translated into English as Operation Barbarossa, not Enterprise Barbarossa which would be the literal meaning (see dictionary entry).
Balcer 20:06, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, I gave to it some thought before choosing the name. Here are my conclusions:
1. both "Wisla" Action and "Wisla" Operation (and also the same variants with Vistula) give similar number of google hits
2. Leon Kieres used the word "Action" referring to both "Wisła" Action and Anti-Polish Action OUN-UPA 1
3. definition from the American Heritage Dictionary 2 police action - A localized military action undertaken without a formal declaration of war. Which I think is the case here. It was an action undertaken by government against its own citizens, not a military operation against a hostile army. -- SylwiaS 21:50, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
But why the latinized "Vistula," and not the Polish "Wisła"? It is a Polish river, and we're no longer in the Middle Ages. logologist 23:30, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Some examples, availabe on Wikipedia, of " operations" that are not even military in nature — bearing out LuiKhuntek's observation above: " Operation Paperclip," " Operation Peter Pan," " Operation Provide Relief."
Conversely, the Polish authorities at the time may intentionally have used akcja to avoid military terminology and make Operation Wisła sound more like some sort of "civic action." logologist 21:00, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
I have also seen reference to a US Navy program, likewise not of a belligerent nature, called " Operation KISS." (The KISS principle, incidentally, might be applicable in our Operation Wisła context.) logologist 21:11, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
The term "action" is, of course, used to denote "combat" or "a military encounter," but is not used in the name of a specific plan or project, e.g. " Operation Crossroads." logologist 21:36, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Some Google Books magic: Operation Wisla - 5 hits, Operation Vistula - 9 hits, Action Vistula - 5 hits, Action Wisla - no hits. Therefore seems that the most common name would be Operation Vistula, after all. See also discussion at Talk:Operation Tempest. Maybe we can devise a naming convention, similar to what is discussed at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions/Geographic names?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:17, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
All right, I assume we have reached consensus to rename it to "Operation Wisła", correct ? -- Lysy ( talk) 12:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Done - I deleted the redirect and moved this page there. Can you guys fix the double redirects? I don't have time right now. In future, such moves can be requested on Wikipedia:Requested moves.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I would still recommend Vistula. There is a Polish Wikipedia, but this the English Wikipedia. The Polish orthograpphy , particularly using the "ł" is a problem for native speakers of English, and for computerized searches. The river is usually called the Vistula in English, and it is an international river. I would think that this is similar to calling that Italian city Rome and not ROMA in Wikipedia. Pustelnik 12:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Removed, for clarification:
Executed? Died in prison? In the bed? Who and how counted "majority?" mikka (t) 17:13, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Nonprofessional appearance. Please put TO-DO things into talk pages instead. mikka (t) 20:22, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Since it was mentioned here, I would be interested to learn more about "Józef Piłsudski's forces plundering of the Western Ukraine". I have not really heard about the plundering aspect. Is it factual ? (BTW: maybe it's worth an article of its own ?) -- Lysy ( talk) 19:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
В сентябре 1919 года войска украинской Директории попали на Подолье в так называемый «треугольник смерти». Они были зажаты между красными русскими Ленина и Троцкого на северо-востоке, белыми русскими Деникина на юго-востоке и поляками на западе. Смерть смотрела в глаза. И не только людям — всему только что рожденному государству. Поэтому, верховный атаман Симон Петлюра просто вынужден был или согласиться на предложенный Пилсудским союз, или фактически капитулировать перед большевиками, как сделали тогда или через год-два Владимир Винниченко и Михаил Грушевский. Решение это — очень болезненное. Польская шляхта была историческим врагом украинского народа. Кровоточила свежая рана ЗУНР (Western Ukr. Republic) — именно в это время пилсудчики распинали украинскую Восточную Галичину (распинали exact translation "were crussifying", loosely means "torturing" or "plundering"). Но все же Петлюра согласился на мир и союз, признав украинско-польской границей будущую границу советско-польскую. Следует отметить, что при этом Пилсудский получал меньше земель, нежели ему предложил Ленин, и в придачу еще и войну с огромной Россией. Надднепрянцы же фактически бросали на произвол судьбы в беде своих братьев-галичан. Но Петлюра решил использовать последний шанс сохранить державу — в союзе с поляками. Попробовал. Было не суждено.
-- Irpen 19:17, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
OK, you can add a "dubious" tag to this claim for now if you wish. I will try to find more on this later. As soon as a bigger problem plundering the Ukrainian topics on Wikipedia is solved (which I see happening soon) I will have more time, I hope, if the work and personal matters allow. -- Irpen 20:42, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, may I say that I haven't heard about the Massacre of Poles in Volhynia from the Ukrainian or Russian sorces either. That only proves, that any national historiography is inherently biased. We certainly broaden our worldviews by participating in this international project. -- Irpen 15:46, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Earlier I was asked for more scholary metnions of the "brutality" of the suppression of Ukrainian independence by Pilsudski. We are talking only about the Western Ukrainian Republic here as mauradeering during the Kiev Offensive is a separate question. Here is the quote from
Quote:
I will try to find time to translate that, if needed. -- Irpen 01:45, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
It means "desperate". I left a message at MichaelZ' talk asking him to translate this paragraph. As a native EN-speaker, unlike myself, he will do that faster and more grammatically. -- Irpen 02:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Пощада means "mercy". "людське відношення" means "human treatment. I corrected in your text. Thanks so much for your effort! -- Irpen 05:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Many thanks. Still, it does not mention any brutality in Galicia. Do we have any specific information on what was this brutality ? -- Lysy ( talk) 16:28, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Irpen, you have added this link to "Формування модерної української нації" but this is very broad. Is there any more specific part of it that should be looked at, that would support the "brutality" ? -- Lysy ( talk) 16:51, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
In Serczyk's book, I've read that both sides of the conflict were desperate and brutal, which basically supports what you wrote, but still is quite general. Maybe we could try to formulate the sentence in another way ? -- Lysy ( talk) 16:57, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I have a question. In the beginning Akcja Wisła had another name. It was planned together with a similar operation which was undertaken by Russians in Ukraine. If I remember correctly, one was named "East" and the other "West". Does anyone know anything about the other action? Is there an article on Wiki about it?-- SylwiaS 16:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I move the quote here-- SylwiaS 18:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
The New York Times, April 18, 1946 wrote : SANOK, Poland, April 17 – "A strong, well-organized and elusive band of Ukrainian nationalists and German deserters, estimated at more than 3,000 under the leadership of a German colonel, in a fortnight have succeeded in transforming this sector of the Carpathian foothills of old Galicia into a virtual partisan stronghold. With the burning of three large villages on a single night two weeks ago, they have made 10,000 of this area's total pre-war population of 135,000 homeless and are resisting with complete success all efforts to quell what is tantamount to open insurrection. By burning an average of two bridges a day for the last three months, they have completely disrupted communications in this thickly populated but primitive backwoods country and have made it virtually impossible for security police and two Polish divisions to rout them out. By stealing cattle and demanding tributes of a million zlotys [about $10,000] they appear capable of holding out indefinitely in their wooded hide-outs ...".
I moved the following messages from my talk page since they belong to the article-- SylwiaS 18:48, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
(editing; however, I would like to see a source for the NYT article) ps. Pani Sylwio ! bardzo proszę o dokładne przetłumaczenie tego teksu na język polski 17:52, 7 December 2005 (UTC) Ruth
Guys, could you use English. I understand Polish writing but with a significant degree of difficulty.
Sylwia, I checked the quote and it is correct. I can email you a full article if you send me your address via "email this user" link. I am not sure though, that such an extensive quote belongs to the article. -- Irpen 17:19, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
I entirely agree that this lengthy quote doesn't belong to this article. The article is about the action of PL gov and not about the Ukrainian nationalists. Yes, the context is needed but should not be made look like a justification of the deportation of an entire population. Sylvia, I emailed the NYT article to you. -- Irpen 17:49, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
Sylwia !, czy ja dobrze zrozumiałam, czy ty napisałaś, że nie wiesz co masz robić, jeśli ma się poczucie bezsensu tego co się robi, lepiej się za to nie zabierać. Ps. dlaczego p. Irpen odnosi ten art. z NYT do kwesti usprawiedliwienia przesiedleń, przeciaż w tej relacji nie ma o tym mowy, ja bym raczej połączyła ten wątek z problematyką kolaboracji ukraińskiej w okresie 1939-1944, np. z przęjęciem władzy na tych ziemiach przez Ukrainców od wrzes. 1939 do maja 1940, formowaniem oddz. Waffen SS w sanockiem oraz Małp. Wsch. etc etc... 19:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC) Ruth
I think I'd like to remove the book of Edward Prus from the references. I've scanned it before and while struck by it's quite emotional tone, I have included it as I thought it could be useful for future references. Now I have read it more carefully and I'm afraid the major agenda of this book was to whitewash the operation. The conclusion is almost that the relocations were blessful for the backward Ukrainians as they got better homes in the west of Poland. Anyway, if it stays it should be used as a reference with caution. -- Lysy ( talk) 14:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
"the brutal suppression of the post-World War I Ukrainian drive for self-determination in Galicia by Józef Piłsudski's forces."
Ummm.. Ok, let's say the Polish-Ukrainian regular wr was brutal suppression, but by PILSUDSKI's forces? I cannot quite get why his forces, not "Polish" or something like that? Szopen 11:31, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
It would be interesting to mention how many of the resettled were able to return, when, where and how. I know that some of the Lemko returned after 1956 but do not have any specific information. -- Lysy ( talk) 18:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Why is does it link to the NSZ page? Am I missing something? radek 22:28, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Was this operation carried out solely by Polish People's Army, or was Red Army also involved?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Officials from Soviet Ukraine cooperated in the action.-- MarekZob 15:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Would it be correct to call this an act of Ethnic cleansing in the opening paragraph? It fits the definitions given in the ethnic cleansing article, and in that article it is given as an example. Ostap 03:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Image:Jaworzno trahicznyj symwol.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 16:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
As it is now - ... carried out by the Soviet installed communist authorities in Poland with assistance... - the headline may make some people think the action was carried out by Soviet authorities. Please rework. -- 193.151.57.7 ( talk) 19:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for tweaking the headline. Also the article has no sources about assistance from Soviet Union and Communist Czechoslovakia - please correct. -- 193.151.57.7 ( talk) 08:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Lets see, on the one hand we have Timothy Snyder [11], and on the other hand we have Paweł5586 [12]. Interesting. I wonder who is the more credible source? I reverted back to Snyder, but perhaps Pawel is more reliable. Ostap 02:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Polish Instytute of Membrance for example. Dr Zbigniew Palski. Snyder is pro Ukrainian. This is the new look of Polish historians on operation Vistula, page VI is begining.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 09:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Stop playing with Wnuk. He has no respect in Poland. He wrote only one book in this topic, and with cooperation with Motyka. Wnuk is unexperienced historian who shuldnt judge other historians becouse he was involved in conflict beetwen them. He didnt participate in conferences, his text is out of date. Actually he is unknown in Poland. At present only a Gazeta Wyborcza is supporting Ukrainian nationalists. At present day even Motyka claims it was genocide.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 06:40, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
A number of editors will not allow this article to use the term "ethnic cleansing".
This term correct defines actions undertaken by Poles. It can correctly by used to sumarize various references including the Polish ones.
The dictionary definition of ethnic cleansing is:"
ethnic cleansing
–noun
the elimination of an unwanted ethnic group or groups from a society, as by genocide or forced emigration. Bobanni ( talk) 14:41, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
According to our article, the encyclopedia of Ukraine is created and run by the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies at the University of Alberta published by the University of Toronto Press. How is this "bad"? Ostap 20:47, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was move. Jafeluv ( talk) 12:07, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
Operation Wisla → Operation Vistula — Title should reflect common English name as per Naming Conventions. Bobanni ( talk) 07:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok for me-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 11:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I want this here so everyone can see it: [15] Ostap 22:20, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
>forcible repatriation of Ukrainians from Poland to the Soviet Union (Ukrainian SSR and Siberia) >repatriation to Siberia Strange as for repatriation? Isn't it? Smells like another soviet repatriations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.192.216.149 ( talk) 05:04, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
140 000 ? Xx236 ( talk) 07:12, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Sources? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:40, 24 March 2015 (UTC) http://www.naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,29004,akcja-wisla---kontrowersje-trwaja-do-dzis.html 140 575. Xx236 ( talk) 08:20, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
During Operation Vistula conditions of the United Nations Charter of June 26, 1945 on the right of self-determination and international laws have been respected. [1] The deported farmers received financial help from the Polish government, and took over homes and farms left behind by the Germans, in most cases improving their living conditions due to increased size of newly acquired properties, brick buildings, and running water. [1]
I don't think this is representative of general historians' opinions to be in the lede. While in some cases this was true, many of the deported did not wish to leave, they did not get compensation and obviously violence had to be used to move'em (that's why this was a military operation). Volunteer Marek ( talk) 17:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Państwo polskie udzieliło także pomocy finansowej i rzeczowej przesiedlonym Ukraińcom. Uzyskali oni kredyty i zapomogi, kartki żywnościowe, żywność i zboże. Remontom poddano wiele zdewastowanych zabudowań, np. w województwie olsztyńskim wyremontowano 2427 budynków, a w szczecińskim – 717. Potrzeby były oczywiście dużo większe (np. w województwie olsztyńskim remontu wymagało około 10 000 budynków zasiedlonych przez Ukraińców), ale natychmiastowe ich zaspokojenie przerastało ówczesne możliwości państwa. W latach 1956-1958 władze udzieliły przesiedleńcom kredytów na łączną kwotę 170 mln zł, co na owe czasy było sumą olbrzymią. Znaczna część tych kredytów była bezzwrotna lub została częściowo umorzona w latach następnych. Nie wolno twierdzić, że przesiedlenia w ramach operacji „Wisła” były dobrodziejstwem. Przymus opuszczenia stron rodzinnych to tragedia dla tysięcy rodzin ukraińskich. Niemniej jednak podjęcie w ramach operacji zdecydowanych, radykalnych i niewątpliwie bolesnych działań przyczyniło się do zahamowania przelewu krwi po obu stronach i dało szansę na rozpoczęcie normalnego życia. — Dr. Łukasz Kamiński, IPN
I would really like to ask editors to please stop pushing an extreme Polish POV in this article. Operation Vistula is clearly a case of ethnic cleansing, with an entire population being removed without considering who actively took part in the UPA and who did not. What is most shocking is that the Polish Wikipedia article on Operation Vistula is much more balanced. I could translate that article if noone will edit it back to reflect their radical Polish nationalist POV (unlikely unfortunately) as it would be a massive improvement over the sad piece of text that we have now.
The Problems:
1. No Ukrainian sources cited. Only Polish sources, quite extreme ones at that. The Polish parliament has condemned Operation Vistula and none of the country's leaders have defended it. Most of the article rests on material from some Zbigniew Palski
2. Completely irrelevant comparison with the NKVD's anti-UPA operations. Information on these belongs in another article.
3. Internment of Ukrainian intelligencia in the Jaworzno camp completely ignored
4. Polish killings of Ukrainians post-1945 completely ignored. If the UPA conducted "terror actions", then the massacres at Pavlokoma etc can only be considered government-sponsored terrorism. This should be explained in the "Background" section
5. Very much focus on how "good" the Polish government was to those deported. No mention of dispersion of Ukrainian deportees to facilitate assimilation, discrimination of Ukrainians in communist Poland
I would be very happy if a Polish editor would like to work with me on improving this article, making it neutral, including more informaion and sources (not along the lines of all Ukrainian are murderers/the Poles are always right). Right now I'm going to revert it to the (very lacking) version that I wrote because this misinformation shouldn't be allowed to remain on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.228.135.71 ( talk) 21:30, 20 January 2016 (UTC)