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The result was: rejected by
BlueMoonset (
talk) 00:09, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Created by Onceinawhile ( talk). Self-nominated at 11:07, 20 February 2020 (UTC).
General: Article is new enough and long enough |
---|
Policy compliance:
Hook eligibility:
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px. |
---|
|
QPQ: Done. |
Overall: The article complies with almost all the requirements for DYK, but I see two problems: the first is that at the moment it is out of scope: it does not deal about the historic center of Hebron, but above all about the Israel occupation of the historic center of Hebron. It is not even explained why UNESCO considers it as a World Heritage Site. I think that first of all we need an "history" section where to put the info about the occupation, and then the article needs to be expanded, or to be renamed. Moreover, it is not completely neutral; for example, in the last sentence of the introduction, the source used (haaretz) is a liberal, left wing Israel newspaper. It would be good to know also the point of view of the government about the reason for the expulsion of the Temporary International Presence in Hebron. Alex2006 ( talk) 11:49, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Thanks @ Alessandro57 and Shrike: for your comments. I focused my efforts when building this article on setting out the main sights, the divisions of the city, the current legal status, and finding good maps (the maps bit being the most time consuming...) All these points are good and fair, but this article is not up for WP:FA so it isn’t expected to be a fulsome account of all the political and historical complexities. These points are all addressed in great detail in the parent article at Hebron.
How can we address your POV concerns without turning this into a very long and complex article and without duplicating all the information at Hebron?
Onceinawhile ( talk) 13:15, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Alessandro57: would you mind taking a look at the revised article and let me know if you would like any further changes? Onceinawhile ( talk) 16:39, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
Comment Nothing really has changed the article use the same POV language usage of partisan sites like +972 and Betzelem while no sites with opposites POVs provide only half truths for example it does mention IDF security measures and the Hardship of Palestinian Arabs but didn't say why they where in force. IMO in current form the article could not be promoted -- Shrike ( talk) 16:51, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
@ Shrike: you have provided a couple of non-specialist sources which make the claim that UNESCO "denied the city's Jewish character". Neither of these sources explain the rationale for the claim nor provide their own citations. Can you explain what you think they mean? The nomination text is there for all of us to see.
It strikes me that these claims are WP:FRINGE at best, as it contradicts what we can all see with our own eyes. We are allowed to rely on what we can see right in front of us.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 21:12, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Selfstudier: something is confusing here. The two laws are shown here: [2] Yet the 1994 law used the exact same text from S. 875 in 1989. Onceinawhile ( talk) 11:17, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
...1989 Senate and House efforts like Senate bill S 763, which were designed to ensure the PLO's "compliance with commitments to stop terrorist activities and to recognize Israel's right to exist," in addition to Senate Resolution 875 and House Resolution 2145, both of which contained language similar to that found in the public laws of 1990 and 1994. Sen. Robert Kasten, Jr. (R-Wl) was the primary sponsor of S 875, and Rep. Tom Lantos sponsored HR 2145. In a nutshell, recognition by any UN body of the Palestinians' right to statehood or their achievement of statehood status would trigger a suspension of US funding to the "offending" UN body under these laws. (I'll just note in passing that it was Sen. Kasten who was to be a major recipient of campaign funds that AIPAC's President David Steiner was soliciting from one Haim Katz. Katz surreptitiously taped and released to the public the conversation, much to AIPAC's embarrassment. The conversation can be found on-line and makes for an interesting read.
Who is Orly Noy? what expertise she have to have her opinion to be WP:DUE?-- Shrike ( talk) 16:53, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
Where does it say that it was expelled because it has issued the report? -- Shrike ( talk) 17:06, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
This material belongs in the UNESCO article, but has no direct relationship to the Old City of Hebron, or to the nomination of the latter to UNESCO. It does not belong in this article.
JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (
talk) 13:15, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
Struck comments by JungerMan Chips Ahoy!, a blocked and banned sockpuppet. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NoCal100/Archive § 06 May 2020 and Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/NoCal100 for details. — Newslinger talk 16:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
We have two conflicting sources on whether the city is mostly Mamluk or mostly Ottoman:
Anita Vitullo, a freelance writer, published in 2003 in the Journal of Palestine Studies, writes that "The majority of the buildings are Ottoman-era from the eighteenth century along with some half dozen Mamluk structures."
The 2017 UNESCO nomination document, written by Alaa Shahin Hebron's City Planner and Sandrine Bert Geith an Independent archaeologist, peer reviewed by Professor Nazmi Al Jubeh [3] and Giovanni Fontana Antonelli [4], says: "Today, the historic town centre is dominated by the Mamluk architecture style built between 1250 and 1517. However, the Ottoman Period (1517-1917) brought numerous architectural additions... Mamluk architecture is predominant in Hebron/Al-Khalil’s historic centre... Most of the public and religious buildings that are still intact date back to this period... During the Ottoman Period, the development of the town spread to the peripheral areas, which were then unoccupied. In the old neighourhoods, upper level extensions were added to the preexisting residential buildings. Few new public or religious buildings were erected; instead the Mamluk monuments were maintained and restored."
These seem to contradict each other. The UNESCO nomination document does mention on page 148 The Conference of Historic and Architectural Heritage of Hebron/Al-Khalil in Paris in 2011, stating that "Bringing together a panel of international experts, this meeting aims at going further in the historic information and analysis about the Mamluk inheritance in the Arab cities and in Hebron/ Al-Khalil in particular." It may be that research came out of this conference, which would explain the changed emphasis. Onceinawhile ( talk) 07:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
There is something seriously wrong with the second sentence of the article. I have no idea what it is meant to say, or I would fix it myself. ThoughtIdRetired ( talk) 07:22, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
I am trying to find out when, and on what evidence, it was decided that biblical Hebron was on Tel Rumeida only. It is odd, because the Old City itself has never been excavated. When Hammond excavated Tel Rumeida in the 1960s, there was a ban on any excavation within 1km of the Cave of the Patriarchs.
I have looked in a few tourist books: p98 of this 1942 tourist book says "The ancient city was situated on the hill of Rumeida, to the south-west, around the ruined Mosque of Deir el Arba'in". Baedeker 1876: "The modern Hebron lies in the narrow part of a valley descending from the N.W.; and, unless it be assumed that the ancient city was situated higher up on the slope to the K., it was one of the few towns of Palestine that did not stand on a hill. The hill on the S.W. side rises about 3000 ft. above the sea-level.", whereas Baedeker 1894: "Ancient Hebron lay to the W., opposite the modern town, on the olive-covered hill Rumeideh, N.W. of the Quarantine. On this hill are ruins of old cyclopean walls and modern buildings called Der el- Arba in, ‘the monastery of the forty’ (martyrs): within the ruins is the tomb of Jesse (Isai), David’s father. At the E. foot of the hill is the deep spring of Sarah, Ain Jedideh. Modern Hebron lies in the narrow part of a valley descending from the N.W. (3018 ft. above the sea-level) and, unless it be assumed that the ancient city extended further along the hill to the E., is one of the few towns of Palestine that are not built on a hill."
Important scholarly sources I have found so far:
Onceinawhile ( talk) 20:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
OK, I think I have (part of) the answer. In Biblical Researches in Palestine, Robinson writes: [5]
Thus far there is nothing to excite a doubt as to the identity of the site of the ancient and modern city. Arculfus near the close of the seventh century, found the place without walls, exhibiting only the vestiges of an ancient desolated city; although a multitude of people yet lived there in miserable dwellings scattered in the valley, partly within and partly without the ruins of the former walls. Yet Benjamin of Tudela, after A. D.
1660[presumed typo for 1160], affirms, that the ancient city was situated on a mountain, and was then desolate and deserted; the city of that day being in the valley. Brocardus, a century later, repeats this account, with more particulars; according to him, the ancient city was on the hill north of the slope on which we encamped, three bow-shots west of north from the modern town, where nothing was then visible except large ruins. This story is copied by writers of the following centuries; and the idea seems to have become current, that the ancient city lay upon the hill. Yet none of the travellers of the fourteenth, fifteenth, and sixteenth centuries, speak of any ruins there, on their own knowledge. We were not aware of this old report at the time of our visit; and therefore did not examine the hill in question. My companion has since informed me, that according to his impression, the site of a former village was spoken of on that hill, similar to several others in the neighbourhood of Hebron; but with the remark that there were no remains there of importance. Had we then known the circumstances above related, we should certainly have gone upon the hill, and ascertained the facts for ourselves. The later researches of friends show conclusively, that there is nothing on that hill to counterbalance the mention of "the valley of Hebron" in the book of Genesis, and the strong evidence of the ancient pools.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 21:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Another from the PEF Survey of Palestine: [6]
The ancient Jewish cemetery on the north side of the hill, called er Rumeidy, west of the town, is interesting. It contains at least 500 tombs, each covered with a stone five or six feet long. This cemetery is now disused, and appears to be very ancient. The curious tradition of the Mugharet edh Dhukkaah is noted in Section C.
It seems to have been supposed from an early period that ancient Hebron was not on the site of modern Hebron. The 'Onomasticon' makes the place near Drys (er Rameh). The Itin. Hierosol. gives this distance as 2 Roman miles. Sta. Paula (385 a.d.) visits the tombs of the Patriarchs, the oak, and then ' ascends ' to Hebron. Theodorus (in sixth century) finds the oak 4 Roman miles from the Spelunca Duplex, or cavern of the Patriarchs, and this cavern 2 miles from Hebron. Arculphus (700 A.D.) found the place in ruins, and west of the tombs of the Patriarchs. Ssewulf (1102 a.d.) gives the same account, the tombs being in a strong castle and the town in ruins. Benjamin of Tudela (i 163 a.d.) calls this castle St. Abraham, and speaks of the old city as on a hill and in ruins. Marino Sanuto (132 1 a.d.) places the old Hebron north of the cavern of Adam ('Ain el Judeideh), and north-west of Ebron Nova, in which he places the Spelunca Duplex. He also speaks of it as 'ad dextram Mambre.
The Oak or Terebinth of Abraham has been shown in two different sites. It seems probable, though not certain, that the present site is that shown from the twelfth century down.
So both Robinson and the PEF were conscious of the historical commentary that the original city was on a hill, but neither concluded that it was. That must have happened in the 1880s or 1890s.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 00:19, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Rabbi Jacob, The Messenger of
Rabbi Jechiel of Paris (1238-1244): On the road-side there is
Halhul, and another Saints' Cave, and in Hebron is the cave of Machpelah, where the Patriarchs are buried. Modern Hebron is near the cave ; ancient Hebron is at the top of the hill, where there are Jewish graves, and on one side there is a cave where Jesse is buried, but some say Joab, and in Hebron is also the grave of Abner, the son of Ner.
(Adler, Jewish Travellers in the Middle Ages, p120)
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Zero0000 (
talk •
contribs) 03:29, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Franciscus Quaresmius: "Leaving the church of the Forty Holy Martyrs, and directing one's step towards Hebron as far as a stone's throw, to the right of the church is shown a beautiful terebinth tree... The terebinth is on the top of the next to the place where old Hebron was built" (Pringle, Churches of the Crusader Kingdom, p.203)
Onceinawhile ( talk) 08:18, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
A David Ben-Shlomo talks about the various excavations (including his own, re Tel Hebron archaeological park refers, ugh) https://www.academia.edu/30600076/Tel_Hebron_during_the_Late_Roman_Early_Byzantine_Period and there is some material in Sharon as well. Selfstudier ( talk) 14:28, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Old City of Hebron article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
The result was: rejected by
BlueMoonset (
talk) 00:09, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Created by Onceinawhile ( talk). Self-nominated at 11:07, 20 February 2020 (UTC).
General: Article is new enough and long enough |
---|
Policy compliance:
Hook eligibility:
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px. |
---|
|
QPQ: Done. |
Overall: The article complies with almost all the requirements for DYK, but I see two problems: the first is that at the moment it is out of scope: it does not deal about the historic center of Hebron, but above all about the Israel occupation of the historic center of Hebron. It is not even explained why UNESCO considers it as a World Heritage Site. I think that first of all we need an "history" section where to put the info about the occupation, and then the article needs to be expanded, or to be renamed. Moreover, it is not completely neutral; for example, in the last sentence of the introduction, the source used (haaretz) is a liberal, left wing Israel newspaper. It would be good to know also the point of view of the government about the reason for the expulsion of the Temporary International Presence in Hebron. Alex2006 ( talk) 11:49, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Thanks @ Alessandro57 and Shrike: for your comments. I focused my efforts when building this article on setting out the main sights, the divisions of the city, the current legal status, and finding good maps (the maps bit being the most time consuming...) All these points are good and fair, but this article is not up for WP:FA so it isn’t expected to be a fulsome account of all the political and historical complexities. These points are all addressed in great detail in the parent article at Hebron.
How can we address your POV concerns without turning this into a very long and complex article and without duplicating all the information at Hebron?
Onceinawhile ( talk) 13:15, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Alessandro57: would you mind taking a look at the revised article and let me know if you would like any further changes? Onceinawhile ( talk) 16:39, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
Comment Nothing really has changed the article use the same POV language usage of partisan sites like +972 and Betzelem while no sites with opposites POVs provide only half truths for example it does mention IDF security measures and the Hardship of Palestinian Arabs but didn't say why they where in force. IMO in current form the article could not be promoted -- Shrike ( talk) 16:51, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
@ Shrike: you have provided a couple of non-specialist sources which make the claim that UNESCO "denied the city's Jewish character". Neither of these sources explain the rationale for the claim nor provide their own citations. Can you explain what you think they mean? The nomination text is there for all of us to see.
It strikes me that these claims are WP:FRINGE at best, as it contradicts what we can all see with our own eyes. We are allowed to rely on what we can see right in front of us.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 21:12, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Selfstudier: something is confusing here. The two laws are shown here: [2] Yet the 1994 law used the exact same text from S. 875 in 1989. Onceinawhile ( talk) 11:17, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
...1989 Senate and House efforts like Senate bill S 763, which were designed to ensure the PLO's "compliance with commitments to stop terrorist activities and to recognize Israel's right to exist," in addition to Senate Resolution 875 and House Resolution 2145, both of which contained language similar to that found in the public laws of 1990 and 1994. Sen. Robert Kasten, Jr. (R-Wl) was the primary sponsor of S 875, and Rep. Tom Lantos sponsored HR 2145. In a nutshell, recognition by any UN body of the Palestinians' right to statehood or their achievement of statehood status would trigger a suspension of US funding to the "offending" UN body under these laws. (I'll just note in passing that it was Sen. Kasten who was to be a major recipient of campaign funds that AIPAC's President David Steiner was soliciting from one Haim Katz. Katz surreptitiously taped and released to the public the conversation, much to AIPAC's embarrassment. The conversation can be found on-line and makes for an interesting read.
Who is Orly Noy? what expertise she have to have her opinion to be WP:DUE?-- Shrike ( talk) 16:53, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
Where does it say that it was expelled because it has issued the report? -- Shrike ( talk) 17:06, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
This material belongs in the UNESCO article, but has no direct relationship to the Old City of Hebron, or to the nomination of the latter to UNESCO. It does not belong in this article.
JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (
talk) 13:15, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
Struck comments by JungerMan Chips Ahoy!, a blocked and banned sockpuppet. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NoCal100/Archive § 06 May 2020 and Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/NoCal100 for details. — Newslinger talk 16:12, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
We have two conflicting sources on whether the city is mostly Mamluk or mostly Ottoman:
Anita Vitullo, a freelance writer, published in 2003 in the Journal of Palestine Studies, writes that "The majority of the buildings are Ottoman-era from the eighteenth century along with some half dozen Mamluk structures."
The 2017 UNESCO nomination document, written by Alaa Shahin Hebron's City Planner and Sandrine Bert Geith an Independent archaeologist, peer reviewed by Professor Nazmi Al Jubeh [3] and Giovanni Fontana Antonelli [4], says: "Today, the historic town centre is dominated by the Mamluk architecture style built between 1250 and 1517. However, the Ottoman Period (1517-1917) brought numerous architectural additions... Mamluk architecture is predominant in Hebron/Al-Khalil’s historic centre... Most of the public and religious buildings that are still intact date back to this period... During the Ottoman Period, the development of the town spread to the peripheral areas, which were then unoccupied. In the old neighourhoods, upper level extensions were added to the preexisting residential buildings. Few new public or religious buildings were erected; instead the Mamluk monuments were maintained and restored."
These seem to contradict each other. The UNESCO nomination document does mention on page 148 The Conference of Historic and Architectural Heritage of Hebron/Al-Khalil in Paris in 2011, stating that "Bringing together a panel of international experts, this meeting aims at going further in the historic information and analysis about the Mamluk inheritance in the Arab cities and in Hebron/ Al-Khalil in particular." It may be that research came out of this conference, which would explain the changed emphasis. Onceinawhile ( talk) 07:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
There is something seriously wrong with the second sentence of the article. I have no idea what it is meant to say, or I would fix it myself. ThoughtIdRetired ( talk) 07:22, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
I am trying to find out when, and on what evidence, it was decided that biblical Hebron was on Tel Rumeida only. It is odd, because the Old City itself has never been excavated. When Hammond excavated Tel Rumeida in the 1960s, there was a ban on any excavation within 1km of the Cave of the Patriarchs.
I have looked in a few tourist books: p98 of this 1942 tourist book says "The ancient city was situated on the hill of Rumeida, to the south-west, around the ruined Mosque of Deir el Arba'in". Baedeker 1876: "The modern Hebron lies in the narrow part of a valley descending from the N.W.; and, unless it be assumed that the ancient city was situated higher up on the slope to the K., it was one of the few towns of Palestine that did not stand on a hill. The hill on the S.W. side rises about 3000 ft. above the sea-level.", whereas Baedeker 1894: "Ancient Hebron lay to the W., opposite the modern town, on the olive-covered hill Rumeideh, N.W. of the Quarantine. On this hill are ruins of old cyclopean walls and modern buildings called Der el- Arba in, ‘the monastery of the forty’ (martyrs): within the ruins is the tomb of Jesse (Isai), David’s father. At the E. foot of the hill is the deep spring of Sarah, Ain Jedideh. Modern Hebron lies in the narrow part of a valley descending from the N.W. (3018 ft. above the sea-level) and, unless it be assumed that the ancient city extended further along the hill to the E., is one of the few towns of Palestine that are not built on a hill."
Important scholarly sources I have found so far:
Onceinawhile ( talk) 20:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
OK, I think I have (part of) the answer. In Biblical Researches in Palestine, Robinson writes: [5]
Thus far there is nothing to excite a doubt as to the identity of the site of the ancient and modern city. Arculfus near the close of the seventh century, found the place without walls, exhibiting only the vestiges of an ancient desolated city; although a multitude of people yet lived there in miserable dwellings scattered in the valley, partly within and partly without the ruins of the former walls. Yet Benjamin of Tudela, after A. D.
1660[presumed typo for 1160], affirms, that the ancient city was situated on a mountain, and was then desolate and deserted; the city of that day being in the valley. Brocardus, a century later, repeats this account, with more particulars; according to him, the ancient city was on the hill north of the slope on which we encamped, three bow-shots west of north from the modern town, where nothing was then visible except large ruins. This story is copied by writers of the following centuries; and the idea seems to have become current, that the ancient city lay upon the hill. Yet none of the travellers of the fourteenth, fifteenth, and sixteenth centuries, speak of any ruins there, on their own knowledge. We were not aware of this old report at the time of our visit; and therefore did not examine the hill in question. My companion has since informed me, that according to his impression, the site of a former village was spoken of on that hill, similar to several others in the neighbourhood of Hebron; but with the remark that there were no remains there of importance. Had we then known the circumstances above related, we should certainly have gone upon the hill, and ascertained the facts for ourselves. The later researches of friends show conclusively, that there is nothing on that hill to counterbalance the mention of "the valley of Hebron" in the book of Genesis, and the strong evidence of the ancient pools.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 21:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
Another from the PEF Survey of Palestine: [6]
The ancient Jewish cemetery on the north side of the hill, called er Rumeidy, west of the town, is interesting. It contains at least 500 tombs, each covered with a stone five or six feet long. This cemetery is now disused, and appears to be very ancient. The curious tradition of the Mugharet edh Dhukkaah is noted in Section C.
It seems to have been supposed from an early period that ancient Hebron was not on the site of modern Hebron. The 'Onomasticon' makes the place near Drys (er Rameh). The Itin. Hierosol. gives this distance as 2 Roman miles. Sta. Paula (385 a.d.) visits the tombs of the Patriarchs, the oak, and then ' ascends ' to Hebron. Theodorus (in sixth century) finds the oak 4 Roman miles from the Spelunca Duplex, or cavern of the Patriarchs, and this cavern 2 miles from Hebron. Arculphus (700 A.D.) found the place in ruins, and west of the tombs of the Patriarchs. Ssewulf (1102 a.d.) gives the same account, the tombs being in a strong castle and the town in ruins. Benjamin of Tudela (i 163 a.d.) calls this castle St. Abraham, and speaks of the old city as on a hill and in ruins. Marino Sanuto (132 1 a.d.) places the old Hebron north of the cavern of Adam ('Ain el Judeideh), and north-west of Ebron Nova, in which he places the Spelunca Duplex. He also speaks of it as 'ad dextram Mambre.
The Oak or Terebinth of Abraham has been shown in two different sites. It seems probable, though not certain, that the present site is that shown from the twelfth century down.
So both Robinson and the PEF were conscious of the historical commentary that the original city was on a hill, but neither concluded that it was. That must have happened in the 1880s or 1890s.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 00:19, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Rabbi Jacob, The Messenger of
Rabbi Jechiel of Paris (1238-1244): On the road-side there is
Halhul, and another Saints' Cave, and in Hebron is the cave of Machpelah, where the Patriarchs are buried. Modern Hebron is near the cave ; ancient Hebron is at the top of the hill, where there are Jewish graves, and on one side there is a cave where Jesse is buried, but some say Joab, and in Hebron is also the grave of Abner, the son of Ner.
(Adler, Jewish Travellers in the Middle Ages, p120)
— Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Zero0000 (
talk •
contribs) 03:29, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
Franciscus Quaresmius: "Leaving the church of the Forty Holy Martyrs, and directing one's step towards Hebron as far as a stone's throw, to the right of the church is shown a beautiful terebinth tree... The terebinth is on the top of the next to the place where old Hebron was built" (Pringle, Churches of the Crusader Kingdom, p.203)
Onceinawhile ( talk) 08:18, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
A David Ben-Shlomo talks about the various excavations (including his own, re Tel Hebron archaeological park refers, ugh) https://www.academia.edu/30600076/Tel_Hebron_during_the_Late_Roman_Early_Byzantine_Period and there is some material in Sharon as well. Selfstudier ( talk) 14:28, 31 May 2020 (UTC)