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Ethnicity/nationality hasn't been in the lede since August. Its removal wasn't disputed, hence any changes to it should find consensus. I oppose any inclusion of ethnicity/nationality in the lede for individuals who were neither ethnically nor nationally part of any community. Ethnic labeling and classification schemes obscure the historical reality.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 05:35, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
His father was Andreas Verousis, a klepht from Livanates, while his mother, Akrivi Tsarlampa was from Preveza- no edit mistakes by Botushali. It's bad use of bibliography to mix random books with historiographical publications. And it's not related to nationality. @ Botushali: placed a very interesting expansion of his activity. I'm not familiar with Greek bibliography but I don't know why you want to call a "main hero of the Greek revolution" someone who was executed by the Greek government because he murdered other rebels, pillaged the poor and the wealthy alike and before his death fought with the Ottomans against the uprising. You can file a discussion at RfC if you want to call him that and I'll read with great interest how other editors from WP Greece respond to ahistorical WP:PEACOCK narratives. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 11:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Khirurg's edit is an acceptable descriptionWhat changed now? The bottom line of the dispute is that now you want to add something which a month ago wasn't added. To do that you either have to get consensus from existing editors or search for a wider consensus. I don't know why the dispute restarted but it can't be expected that something which we settled on November 17 is going to be repeated with a different outcome on December 10. I'm open to all proposals as always.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 01:52, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
What his "nationality" was is open to debate, because the Greek government at the time of his death apparently was still an internationally unrecognized one" Ktrimi, first of all, none conditioned nationality to the diplomatic status of a country. Had this been ever the case, then the Kosovarians shouldn't been called as such during the early days of the independent, and rather be called Serbians. Or the Taiwanese people shouldnt becalled as such but as Chinese. Your logic is very flawed. Your role as an editor isn't to question what the sources do say using such flawed arguments. If the majority consensus in the sources do state that this person is of Greek nationality, then you ought to respect that and Wikipedia has to reflect on it. Simple as that. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 02:31, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
In older texts or other languages the word "nationality", rather than "ethnicity", is often used to refer to an ethnic group (a group of people who share a common ethnic identity, language, culture, lineage, history, and so forth). This older meaning of "nationality" is not defined by political borders or passport ownership and includes nations that lack an independent state(bolt in emphasis) So, considering that nationality is not defined or determined by wether a state was independent or not, or lacked recognition, I will ask this very simple question and I expect an answer: If the majority of the academic scholars have reached a consensus about this person's nationality, then shouldn't Wikipedia reflect on it? Its a very simple question, really!--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 03:02, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Comment:Why editors confuse ethnicity with nationality? Please note that:
Wikipedia reflects collectively on what the majority of the sources and scholars do say, not on editorial opinions based on selective WP:CHERRYPICKING of sources such as Mazower. Can the editors explain why what the sources do say on the matter, shouldn't be reflected on the article about that person? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 02:26, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Comment: Ok, something which I don't understand about nationality - if he died in 1825 and Greece became a state in 1828 or maybe 1830 eventually, why is he a Greek national? Botushali ( talk) 04:02, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Comment: Androutsos was a commander of the Greek revolutionary army, he was also one of the distinguished Greeks in the court of Ali Pasha. @Botushali: it's like saying that Skenderbeu was NOT Albanian because Albania was created in 1912. We have a ton of evidence and bibliography for both of them. Alexikoua ( talk) 08:13, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
We will either mention him as a Greek Arvanite (Greco-Albanian) or nothing at all. I hope this article becomes unbiased RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 19:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Is primarily known in Greece as Greek Revolutionary. In Albania its known as an Arvanite revolutionary. So he is an arvanite as it is Widely Sourced. So either "Albanian Greek" or nothing at all. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 23:45, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Doesnt matter how many hits there are if there is the truth. Down at the article there is mentioned and referenced that he was an arvanite. It is confirmed that he was an arvanite. So if you will simply revert it until you are satisfied doesnt make it right. And that will make me and a lot of others question your neutrality. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 01:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
So for the sake of professional history lets solve it neutrally how it needs to be. Is it allegiance or ethnicity or nationality? Allegiqnce doesnt make him greek. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 01:03, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Also there are hundreds of hits for Androutsos "arvanite revolutionary" RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 01:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
I dont know how to provide the link. If you click at the pseudo 0 hits link that you provided there it is. We must solve this once and for all anyway. Why was he greek? Ethnically Arvanite. Nationality during ottoman empire cant be greek. A nation its defined mainly by Language and culture group. Citizenship.... Ottoman. So i am waiting for an answer which is it? RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 19:02, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
According to MOS:ETHNICITY the "Greek" part should not be in the lead section. If you would change it as a military leader/revolutionary of greek revolutionary forces that should be okay. The first example mistakenly implies his ethnicity/nationality the second one its the "group" he represented at a certain period. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 14:38, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Commandin the Greek Revolutionary troops doesn't make you a Greek Commander. It makes you a commander of Greek Revolutionary troops. Just like Che Guevara it's not a Cuban Commander, But an Argentinian commanding the Cuban revolutionary troops. Since we dont want ethnicity in the Lead, it should be a commander of the Greek Revolutionary Troops or whatever official name the troops had. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 12:52, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
How can we add a neutral third party to judge this case? RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 12:13, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
I never claimed he was a commander of arvanite revolutionaries. He was a commander of revolutionary forces of greece. But he wasnt Greek. Its simple. He wasn't ethnically greek and he never had greek citizenship or nationality. Phyrros Dimas represented both Albania and Greece too but in his article he is mentioned as Greek. We can play how much you want with words but this information is a mistake and should be removed. He wasnt a Greek Commander. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 14:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Commanding the greek army doesnt make you A Greek commander. It doesnt matter how known Dimas was while representing albania. He represented albania so he is an albanian-greek sportsman according to your example. So either we will write Arvanite comanding the Greek revolution or nothing at all. Not a Greek Commander. Its a wrong information. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 09:07, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
We are not talking about the citizenship. These are citizenships. While Androutsos didnt had a greek citizenship. Nor did he ever lived in independent greek country RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 08:57, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Also if it is how you say it. Why is marko botsaris first a captain of suliotes then a hero of greek war of indipendence. Why isnt him "Greek Captain"? RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 12:36, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with it. I repeat saying that someone is a Greek Commander implies its nationality / ethnicity which is wrong and should not be there. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 08:44, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
Two years+ and the same kind of disruption again. Androutsos is describeδ a Greek military commander even during his service in Ali Pasha's court. It's a clear case of wp:MOSBIO to describe him as such from the lead. Scholarship is also clear on that. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
According to Koliopoulos and Vermis (2002), the heroes of the Revolution may have not had a Greek consciousness but fought against the Ottomans to rid themselves of their oppressors.Regarding Ali and his rulership, it obviously was Albanian, and his administered terriotory was officially called Albania by the western powers. I do not need history lessons, thanks. – Βατο ( talk) 21:09, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
I wonder if there is a single source that describes him as a traitor. By the way only Stavrou mentions the word 'traitor' but under a limited context and not considering him a traitor, saying: "That Odysseus Androutsos ended his days less a hero than a traitor is simply ignored". To sum up the claim that some scholars described him as a traitor isn't supported by the available scholarship. We should be precise on what the given sholarship states. Alexikoua ( talk) 05:28, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Alexikoua, explain exactly how Androutsos qualifies as a Greek. Your arguments above are completely unsatisfactory. Provide RS bibliography that logically supports your claim. He was born an Albanian, raised in a court dominated by Albanians, abandoned the Greek side for the Ottoman side, and died an Ottoman soldier of Albanian origin who was held captive by Greeks. Simple as that, build consensus for such illogical additions rather than disruptive edit warring. Botushali ( talk) 07:06, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Nothing makes him Greek. Did read the multitude of sources in the article? Your own criteria for what makes someone Greek are of no relevance. Khirurg ( talk) 15:17, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
The fluidity between the groups was also marked in specific territories where local Ottoman governors attempted to replace an old Greek armatoloi establishment with new hand-picked armatoloi of their own choosing. The most dramatic example of this is seen in the Epirot lands of Ali Pasha of Ioannina, who in the latter half of the 18th century made the region's armatoloi almost exclusively Albanian. Deposed Greek armatoloi in such areas became klephts instead, and understood their subsequent anti-armatoloi behaviour to constitute not just a form of brigandry, but also a sort of resis-tance to Ottoman domination."So, do not insert out of context material that makes the article ahistorical. – Βατο ( talk) 12:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
*Gallant, Thomas W. (21 January 2015). Edinburgh History of the Greeks, 1768 to 1913. Edinburgh University Press. p. 87. ISBN 978-0-7486-3607-5. "His top military commanders were men like the Muslim Omar Vryonis from Berat and the Greek Odysseus Androutsos (no word about the later era as Bato claims.)
Alexikoua (
talk)
19:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
You are obviously talking about another person & not this one. Androutsos was a Greek military commander and sholarship is in agreement that he was a Greek military personality.@ Alexikoua: The article, its lede and its infobox say his last military allegiance was with the Ottoman Empire, not with the Greek state. But you might have a point: in nationalist narratives, such as the ones of Balkan state-building fairy tales, the term "hero" might have a different meaning. After all, other "heroes" started to kill each other when political and economic interests came to conflict. Very "heroic" and "patriotic", right? Anyways, this tp is not about Skanderbeg and Androutsos' Ottoman and Greek opponents. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 14:25, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
( ←) I am not in a position to properly enter a discussion that would communicate the apparent misunderstanding of the concept of ethnicity as identical to biological descent on the part of some editors above. Nonetheless, I would like to note that it would be helpful if everyone took into account what is properly stated in the lead of the relevant article of this encyclpedia, i.e. that a person's or a group's ethnic identity relates to "*perceived* shared attributes".
I also understand that a further complication (making claims without proper reference to source material) derives from the fact that Androutsos's life has not been the subject of a comprehensive scholarly publication in recent years, with the exception of the MPhil thesis of Tatiana Menelaidou (who is sadly misnamed in the article's references) and despite the valuable discoveries in Ottoman archives that confirmed his being a traitor to the Greek revolution. A lengthy discussion of Androutsos's course up to the eruption of the Greek revolution has been the topic of a study by Panagiotis Stathis (see here or here for a short CV) -- who has been writing a PhD on the historiography of the Revolution and has already published a more general piece critizing the narrative of traditional Greek national(ist) historiography regarding the integration of armed chieftains in the Revolution (see Panagiotis Stathis, " From klephts and armatoloi to Revolutionaries", pp. 167 ff.). The study on Androutsos has not yet been published, for reasons that are not related to the present discussion; however, an early condensed form has been published by Stathis in a literary magazine aimed to promoting the public understanding of academic history. I hope it will be found useful in reaching an agreement to quote a relevant passage from this early version of Stathis's article:
The attempt of Odysseus to defect resulted in a curious episode which illustrated the difficulties with which the Philhellenes were struggling in attempting to understand the Greek political scene. Odysseus never had any higher ambition than to be a local chieftain and certainly cared nothing for any notion of Hellas or regeneration or the usual Greek and philhellenic myths. In this respect he was a typical Greek of the time, but his outlook was totally incomprehensible to many Philhellenes. To them Odysseus was a colourful and powerful figure with an eminently Greek sounding name. He had to be fitted into some philhellenic preconception. To Stanhope Odysseus represented the hope of turning Greece into a constitutional republic with free and representative institutions—perhaps the most misconceived of all views of his character. But Odysseus was also the cynosure of the type of Philhellenes whom I have called the romantic Byronists, the men who, unlike Byron himself, came to Greece in search of the exoticism of Byron’s Grecian and Turkish tales. Odysseus, to such men, was a true Greek, a Greek who lived among mountains and wore colourful clothes.– Βατο ( talk) 08:42, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
I see the nature of the discussion has changed in the short time since I began to participate in it. I first commented in reply to a request for a piece of contemporary (not "Old 20th century") scholarship that "would provide a reasonable explanation why Androutsos can be considered a "Greek" within the context of his service under Ali Pasha's authority", as this was presented as prohibitive for describing Odysseas as "Greek" in the first sentence of the article's lead and offered Mazower and Papastamatiou. I now read that all this is "irrelevant" as what matters is Odysseas's "allegiances", which supposedly render "undue" his description as "Greek". I (along with Papastamatiou and Mazower -- who, against the false claim that I now see has been made in previous discussions in this talk page that he "avoids national/ethnic description(s) for many figures including Androutsos", describes Odysseas as a "Greek" chieftain of Ali in contradistinction with his Albanian counterparts) would beg to say that this is puzzling.
I fail to see how the fact that Odysseas was an Ottoman subject for most of his life means that it is undue to describe him as Greek. Were there no Ottoman Greeks? Is the problem located in the fact that, as per Ottoman documentation, he commited treason in 1825 and was executed for this crime in the same year? I do not see Vidkun Quisling not being described as "Norwegian" or Georgios Poulos not being described as "Greek" on account of this -- and rightly so. Or, does a historical agent have to be a Greek citizen throughout or for the most part of his life to be described as "X"? If so, does this mean that the description of e.g. Mercurio Bua, who was certainly not an Albanian citizen at any point in his life, should be removed from the relevant article's introduction? I believe not and Odysseas presents a similar case. Now, St Clair (in whose hands, per the introduction (p. xviii) of Roderick Beaton, the editor of the book's second edition, Odysseus "fares even worse" than Kolokotronis, as "St Clair seems to share the preference of most philhellenes for those with a western education and values, such as Mavrokordatos"), when discussing -in the passage Bato quoted above (from p. 239)- the encounter of the Philhellens with the "political scene" of revolted Greece, presents Odysseas's securing of personal power at a local level as his sole "ambition" of Odysseas. May I add that this is not incongruous with being Greek or with the study I referred to by Panagiotis Stathis, who argues in the closing paragraph of his article on Odysseas's course until the Revolution (p. 16) that Odysseas's "strategic planning to act in these circumstances [of the eruption of the Greek Revolution] in a way that elevates him into a leading figure in the new political entity taking place". The fact that Odysseas was one of the persons engaging in revolutionary action also because "they see, in the framework of political limitations and tactical choices at display in given circumstance that their investment in the Revolution can elevate their socioeconomic place" (Stathis, ibid.) does not make him less of a "typical Greek of the time", as St Clair also states.
The only possibly legitimate objection I can fathom to inserting the word "Greek" in the article's first sentence is that the phrase "Greek military and political commander" can misleadingly communicate to the article's readers the false impression that the person hereby presented was indeed a Greek citizen active as a part of the Greek state's army throughout his life. In order to secure that any possible misunderstanding is avoided, the relevant part of the article's first sentence could be reformulated not with the phrase "was a Greek military and political commander" but with "was a Greek armatolos". An armatolos being by definition somebody operating with authority granted by the Ottoman state, no such misunderstanding could possibly arise. Ashmedai 119 ( talk) 05:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
"Der Aufstand erfasste bald viele Teile des heutigen Griechenlands. Ende Mârz erhoben sich unter Hadschi Maleti die christlichen albanischen Ka- pitâne einiger autonomer Bergdôrfer in Bôotien, der sogenannten Der- venochoria und verbündeten sich mit den ebenfalls albanischstâmmigen Armatolen Ali Paschas Dimitrios Panourgias, Odysseas Androutsos und Athanasios Diakos."In terms of ethnicity, as per WP:NPOV you should not neglect his Albanian strain and highlight his Greek strain. In terms of allegiance he began his career and ended it serving Ottoman Albanian rulers. Your WP:UNDUE proposal completely ignores current bibliography. Anyway, this is my last comment here, I am not so interested in Androutsos per se, but I strongly oppose the POV nonsense narrative that he was a "Greek armatole" of Ali Pasha. – Βατο ( talk) 08:14, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
Comment: I am not sure who thought that describing Odhise Andruci as being an Ottoman Greek was a good idea, needless to say that such absurd and provocative edits will not be maintained. Nishjan ( talk) 10:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
When reading the last comments in the discussion, I became confirmed in my previously expressed view that the disagreement regarding the description of Odysseas as Greek or not derives the combination of (a) an insufficient contact with or consideration for the sources dealing with Odysseas (both primary and secondary) and the historical circumstances of his live and (b) a fundamental misunderstanding of the notion of "ethnicity" and "ethnic identity".
I now understand that it is indispensable to deal with the latter issue first. I think that this becomes most apparent when reading the comments by RoyalHeritageAlb above. Royal Heritage Alb claims that for the article and its introduction to conform with the encyclopedia's policy on neutrality it is necessary to equally "highlight" both "sides" of Odysseas's descent, what s/he viewes -if I understand it correctly- as Greek and Albanian heritage, with the circumstances of his upbringing being a "detail" that should be ommitted from the introduction. "Is greek better and more important than arvanite?" s/he asks. For this editor, and it seems for other editors as well, ethnic descriptions are a matter of attributing equal value and importance in presenting a person's parentage and biological origins. However, a contemporary or historical agent's ethnic identity is not identical to biological descent. Ethnicity/Ethnic identity is not an objective given, that originates from the admixture of supposedly different biological traits that pertain to one's parents according to their origins. Ethnicity/Ethnic identity is part of a person's self-conception that is constructed as part of his/her identity formation and socialisation. Though it seems to treat the concept in a contemporary and not historical setting, referring primarily to the US, this encyclopedia's article on ethnic identity development is sufficient to provide a general view of the concept.
It is only when this misconception of ethnicity as a supposedly biological trait gives way to its proper understanding as part of a person's social self-perception that those insisting that Odysseas, being the son of an Arvanite, can not be Greek will be able to discuss relevant sources (secondary and also primary), that they understand why it is not against the encyclopedia's policy of neutrality to state that Odysseas was raised for the first (c.15-22) years of his life in an environment influenced by modern Greek Enlightenment ideas, that they will be able to fathom why it is not "absurd and provocative" [!] (as Nishjan asserted) to share -as I do- in Mazower's characterization of Odysseas as Greek when he served under Ali and that this discussion will have a chance of reaching a consensus on the increasingly various matters it has been dealing with. Ashmedai 119 ( talk) 07:43, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
Bato removed information sourced by several academic sources and replaced it with info by one unpublished PhD, nevertheless that's clear violation per wp:HISTRS. Published academic material should be preferred especially when unpublished material is in straight contradiction with scholarship. Alexikoua ( talk) 03:54, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
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Ethnicity/nationality hasn't been in the lede since August. Its removal wasn't disputed, hence any changes to it should find consensus. I oppose any inclusion of ethnicity/nationality in the lede for individuals who were neither ethnically nor nationally part of any community. Ethnic labeling and classification schemes obscure the historical reality.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 05:35, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
His father was Andreas Verousis, a klepht from Livanates, while his mother, Akrivi Tsarlampa was from Preveza- no edit mistakes by Botushali. It's bad use of bibliography to mix random books with historiographical publications. And it's not related to nationality. @ Botushali: placed a very interesting expansion of his activity. I'm not familiar with Greek bibliography but I don't know why you want to call a "main hero of the Greek revolution" someone who was executed by the Greek government because he murdered other rebels, pillaged the poor and the wealthy alike and before his death fought with the Ottomans against the uprising. You can file a discussion at RfC if you want to call him that and I'll read with great interest how other editors from WP Greece respond to ahistorical WP:PEACOCK narratives. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 11:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Khirurg's edit is an acceptable descriptionWhat changed now? The bottom line of the dispute is that now you want to add something which a month ago wasn't added. To do that you either have to get consensus from existing editors or search for a wider consensus. I don't know why the dispute restarted but it can't be expected that something which we settled on November 17 is going to be repeated with a different outcome on December 10. I'm open to all proposals as always.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 01:52, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
What his "nationality" was is open to debate, because the Greek government at the time of his death apparently was still an internationally unrecognized one" Ktrimi, first of all, none conditioned nationality to the diplomatic status of a country. Had this been ever the case, then the Kosovarians shouldn't been called as such during the early days of the independent, and rather be called Serbians. Or the Taiwanese people shouldnt becalled as such but as Chinese. Your logic is very flawed. Your role as an editor isn't to question what the sources do say using such flawed arguments. If the majority consensus in the sources do state that this person is of Greek nationality, then you ought to respect that and Wikipedia has to reflect on it. Simple as that. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 02:31, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
In older texts or other languages the word "nationality", rather than "ethnicity", is often used to refer to an ethnic group (a group of people who share a common ethnic identity, language, culture, lineage, history, and so forth). This older meaning of "nationality" is not defined by political borders or passport ownership and includes nations that lack an independent state(bolt in emphasis) So, considering that nationality is not defined or determined by wether a state was independent or not, or lacked recognition, I will ask this very simple question and I expect an answer: If the majority of the academic scholars have reached a consensus about this person's nationality, then shouldn't Wikipedia reflect on it? Its a very simple question, really!--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 03:02, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Comment:Why editors confuse ethnicity with nationality? Please note that:
Wikipedia reflects collectively on what the majority of the sources and scholars do say, not on editorial opinions based on selective WP:CHERRYPICKING of sources such as Mazower. Can the editors explain why what the sources do say on the matter, shouldn't be reflected on the article about that person? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 02:26, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Comment: Ok, something which I don't understand about nationality - if he died in 1825 and Greece became a state in 1828 or maybe 1830 eventually, why is he a Greek national? Botushali ( talk) 04:02, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Comment: Androutsos was a commander of the Greek revolutionary army, he was also one of the distinguished Greeks in the court of Ali Pasha. @Botushali: it's like saying that Skenderbeu was NOT Albanian because Albania was created in 1912. We have a ton of evidence and bibliography for both of them. Alexikoua ( talk) 08:13, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
We will either mention him as a Greek Arvanite (Greco-Albanian) or nothing at all. I hope this article becomes unbiased RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 19:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Is primarily known in Greece as Greek Revolutionary. In Albania its known as an Arvanite revolutionary. So he is an arvanite as it is Widely Sourced. So either "Albanian Greek" or nothing at all. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 23:45, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Doesnt matter how many hits there are if there is the truth. Down at the article there is mentioned and referenced that he was an arvanite. It is confirmed that he was an arvanite. So if you will simply revert it until you are satisfied doesnt make it right. And that will make me and a lot of others question your neutrality. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 01:00, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
So for the sake of professional history lets solve it neutrally how it needs to be. Is it allegiance or ethnicity or nationality? Allegiqnce doesnt make him greek. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 01:03, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Also there are hundreds of hits for Androutsos "arvanite revolutionary" RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 01:06, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
I dont know how to provide the link. If you click at the pseudo 0 hits link that you provided there it is. We must solve this once and for all anyway. Why was he greek? Ethnically Arvanite. Nationality during ottoman empire cant be greek. A nation its defined mainly by Language and culture group. Citizenship.... Ottoman. So i am waiting for an answer which is it? RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 19:02, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
According to MOS:ETHNICITY the "Greek" part should not be in the lead section. If you would change it as a military leader/revolutionary of greek revolutionary forces that should be okay. The first example mistakenly implies his ethnicity/nationality the second one its the "group" he represented at a certain period. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 14:38, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Commandin the Greek Revolutionary troops doesn't make you a Greek Commander. It makes you a commander of Greek Revolutionary troops. Just like Che Guevara it's not a Cuban Commander, But an Argentinian commanding the Cuban revolutionary troops. Since we dont want ethnicity in the Lead, it should be a commander of the Greek Revolutionary Troops or whatever official name the troops had. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 12:52, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
How can we add a neutral third party to judge this case? RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 12:13, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
I never claimed he was a commander of arvanite revolutionaries. He was a commander of revolutionary forces of greece. But he wasnt Greek. Its simple. He wasn't ethnically greek and he never had greek citizenship or nationality. Phyrros Dimas represented both Albania and Greece too but in his article he is mentioned as Greek. We can play how much you want with words but this information is a mistake and should be removed. He wasnt a Greek Commander. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 14:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Commanding the greek army doesnt make you A Greek commander. It doesnt matter how known Dimas was while representing albania. He represented albania so he is an albanian-greek sportsman according to your example. So either we will write Arvanite comanding the Greek revolution or nothing at all. Not a Greek Commander. Its a wrong information. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 09:07, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
We are not talking about the citizenship. These are citizenships. While Androutsos didnt had a greek citizenship. Nor did he ever lived in independent greek country RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 08:57, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Also if it is how you say it. Why is marko botsaris first a captain of suliotes then a hero of greek war of indipendence. Why isnt him "Greek Captain"? RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 12:36, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with it. I repeat saying that someone is a Greek Commander implies its nationality / ethnicity which is wrong and should not be there. RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 08:44, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
Two years+ and the same kind of disruption again. Androutsos is describeδ a Greek military commander even during his service in Ali Pasha's court. It's a clear case of wp:MOSBIO to describe him as such from the lead. Scholarship is also clear on that. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
According to Koliopoulos and Vermis (2002), the heroes of the Revolution may have not had a Greek consciousness but fought against the Ottomans to rid themselves of their oppressors.Regarding Ali and his rulership, it obviously was Albanian, and his administered terriotory was officially called Albania by the western powers. I do not need history lessons, thanks. – Βατο ( talk) 21:09, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
I wonder if there is a single source that describes him as a traitor. By the way only Stavrou mentions the word 'traitor' but under a limited context and not considering him a traitor, saying: "That Odysseus Androutsos ended his days less a hero than a traitor is simply ignored". To sum up the claim that some scholars described him as a traitor isn't supported by the available scholarship. We should be precise on what the given sholarship states. Alexikoua ( talk) 05:28, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Alexikoua, explain exactly how Androutsos qualifies as a Greek. Your arguments above are completely unsatisfactory. Provide RS bibliography that logically supports your claim. He was born an Albanian, raised in a court dominated by Albanians, abandoned the Greek side for the Ottoman side, and died an Ottoman soldier of Albanian origin who was held captive by Greeks. Simple as that, build consensus for such illogical additions rather than disruptive edit warring. Botushali ( talk) 07:06, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Nothing makes him Greek. Did read the multitude of sources in the article? Your own criteria for what makes someone Greek are of no relevance. Khirurg ( talk) 15:17, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
The fluidity between the groups was also marked in specific territories where local Ottoman governors attempted to replace an old Greek armatoloi establishment with new hand-picked armatoloi of their own choosing. The most dramatic example of this is seen in the Epirot lands of Ali Pasha of Ioannina, who in the latter half of the 18th century made the region's armatoloi almost exclusively Albanian. Deposed Greek armatoloi in such areas became klephts instead, and understood their subsequent anti-armatoloi behaviour to constitute not just a form of brigandry, but also a sort of resis-tance to Ottoman domination."So, do not insert out of context material that makes the article ahistorical. – Βατο ( talk) 12:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
*Gallant, Thomas W. (21 January 2015). Edinburgh History of the Greeks, 1768 to 1913. Edinburgh University Press. p. 87. ISBN 978-0-7486-3607-5. "His top military commanders were men like the Muslim Omar Vryonis from Berat and the Greek Odysseus Androutsos (no word about the later era as Bato claims.)
Alexikoua (
talk)
19:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
You are obviously talking about another person & not this one. Androutsos was a Greek military commander and sholarship is in agreement that he was a Greek military personality.@ Alexikoua: The article, its lede and its infobox say his last military allegiance was with the Ottoman Empire, not with the Greek state. But you might have a point: in nationalist narratives, such as the ones of Balkan state-building fairy tales, the term "hero" might have a different meaning. After all, other "heroes" started to kill each other when political and economic interests came to conflict. Very "heroic" and "patriotic", right? Anyways, this tp is not about Skanderbeg and Androutsos' Ottoman and Greek opponents. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 14:25, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
( ←) I am not in a position to properly enter a discussion that would communicate the apparent misunderstanding of the concept of ethnicity as identical to biological descent on the part of some editors above. Nonetheless, I would like to note that it would be helpful if everyone took into account what is properly stated in the lead of the relevant article of this encyclpedia, i.e. that a person's or a group's ethnic identity relates to "*perceived* shared attributes".
I also understand that a further complication (making claims without proper reference to source material) derives from the fact that Androutsos's life has not been the subject of a comprehensive scholarly publication in recent years, with the exception of the MPhil thesis of Tatiana Menelaidou (who is sadly misnamed in the article's references) and despite the valuable discoveries in Ottoman archives that confirmed his being a traitor to the Greek revolution. A lengthy discussion of Androutsos's course up to the eruption of the Greek revolution has been the topic of a study by Panagiotis Stathis (see here or here for a short CV) -- who has been writing a PhD on the historiography of the Revolution and has already published a more general piece critizing the narrative of traditional Greek national(ist) historiography regarding the integration of armed chieftains in the Revolution (see Panagiotis Stathis, " From klephts and armatoloi to Revolutionaries", pp. 167 ff.). The study on Androutsos has not yet been published, for reasons that are not related to the present discussion; however, an early condensed form has been published by Stathis in a literary magazine aimed to promoting the public understanding of academic history. I hope it will be found useful in reaching an agreement to quote a relevant passage from this early version of Stathis's article:
The attempt of Odysseus to defect resulted in a curious episode which illustrated the difficulties with which the Philhellenes were struggling in attempting to understand the Greek political scene. Odysseus never had any higher ambition than to be a local chieftain and certainly cared nothing for any notion of Hellas or regeneration or the usual Greek and philhellenic myths. In this respect he was a typical Greek of the time, but his outlook was totally incomprehensible to many Philhellenes. To them Odysseus was a colourful and powerful figure with an eminently Greek sounding name. He had to be fitted into some philhellenic preconception. To Stanhope Odysseus represented the hope of turning Greece into a constitutional republic with free and representative institutions—perhaps the most misconceived of all views of his character. But Odysseus was also the cynosure of the type of Philhellenes whom I have called the romantic Byronists, the men who, unlike Byron himself, came to Greece in search of the exoticism of Byron’s Grecian and Turkish tales. Odysseus, to such men, was a true Greek, a Greek who lived among mountains and wore colourful clothes.– Βατο ( talk) 08:42, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
I see the nature of the discussion has changed in the short time since I began to participate in it. I first commented in reply to a request for a piece of contemporary (not "Old 20th century") scholarship that "would provide a reasonable explanation why Androutsos can be considered a "Greek" within the context of his service under Ali Pasha's authority", as this was presented as prohibitive for describing Odysseas as "Greek" in the first sentence of the article's lead and offered Mazower and Papastamatiou. I now read that all this is "irrelevant" as what matters is Odysseas's "allegiances", which supposedly render "undue" his description as "Greek". I (along with Papastamatiou and Mazower -- who, against the false claim that I now see has been made in previous discussions in this talk page that he "avoids national/ethnic description(s) for many figures including Androutsos", describes Odysseas as a "Greek" chieftain of Ali in contradistinction with his Albanian counterparts) would beg to say that this is puzzling.
I fail to see how the fact that Odysseas was an Ottoman subject for most of his life means that it is undue to describe him as Greek. Were there no Ottoman Greeks? Is the problem located in the fact that, as per Ottoman documentation, he commited treason in 1825 and was executed for this crime in the same year? I do not see Vidkun Quisling not being described as "Norwegian" or Georgios Poulos not being described as "Greek" on account of this -- and rightly so. Or, does a historical agent have to be a Greek citizen throughout or for the most part of his life to be described as "X"? If so, does this mean that the description of e.g. Mercurio Bua, who was certainly not an Albanian citizen at any point in his life, should be removed from the relevant article's introduction? I believe not and Odysseas presents a similar case. Now, St Clair (in whose hands, per the introduction (p. xviii) of Roderick Beaton, the editor of the book's second edition, Odysseus "fares even worse" than Kolokotronis, as "St Clair seems to share the preference of most philhellenes for those with a western education and values, such as Mavrokordatos"), when discussing -in the passage Bato quoted above (from p. 239)- the encounter of the Philhellens with the "political scene" of revolted Greece, presents Odysseas's securing of personal power at a local level as his sole "ambition" of Odysseas. May I add that this is not incongruous with being Greek or with the study I referred to by Panagiotis Stathis, who argues in the closing paragraph of his article on Odysseas's course until the Revolution (p. 16) that Odysseas's "strategic planning to act in these circumstances [of the eruption of the Greek Revolution] in a way that elevates him into a leading figure in the new political entity taking place". The fact that Odysseas was one of the persons engaging in revolutionary action also because "they see, in the framework of political limitations and tactical choices at display in given circumstance that their investment in the Revolution can elevate their socioeconomic place" (Stathis, ibid.) does not make him less of a "typical Greek of the time", as St Clair also states.
The only possibly legitimate objection I can fathom to inserting the word "Greek" in the article's first sentence is that the phrase "Greek military and political commander" can misleadingly communicate to the article's readers the false impression that the person hereby presented was indeed a Greek citizen active as a part of the Greek state's army throughout his life. In order to secure that any possible misunderstanding is avoided, the relevant part of the article's first sentence could be reformulated not with the phrase "was a Greek military and political commander" but with "was a Greek armatolos". An armatolos being by definition somebody operating with authority granted by the Ottoman state, no such misunderstanding could possibly arise. Ashmedai 119 ( talk) 05:08, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
"Der Aufstand erfasste bald viele Teile des heutigen Griechenlands. Ende Mârz erhoben sich unter Hadschi Maleti die christlichen albanischen Ka- pitâne einiger autonomer Bergdôrfer in Bôotien, der sogenannten Der- venochoria und verbündeten sich mit den ebenfalls albanischstâmmigen Armatolen Ali Paschas Dimitrios Panourgias, Odysseas Androutsos und Athanasios Diakos."In terms of ethnicity, as per WP:NPOV you should not neglect his Albanian strain and highlight his Greek strain. In terms of allegiance he began his career and ended it serving Ottoman Albanian rulers. Your WP:UNDUE proposal completely ignores current bibliography. Anyway, this is my last comment here, I am not so interested in Androutsos per se, but I strongly oppose the POV nonsense narrative that he was a "Greek armatole" of Ali Pasha. – Βατο ( talk) 08:14, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
Comment: I am not sure who thought that describing Odhise Andruci as being an Ottoman Greek was a good idea, needless to say that such absurd and provocative edits will not be maintained. Nishjan ( talk) 10:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
When reading the last comments in the discussion, I became confirmed in my previously expressed view that the disagreement regarding the description of Odysseas as Greek or not derives the combination of (a) an insufficient contact with or consideration for the sources dealing with Odysseas (both primary and secondary) and the historical circumstances of his live and (b) a fundamental misunderstanding of the notion of "ethnicity" and "ethnic identity".
I now understand that it is indispensable to deal with the latter issue first. I think that this becomes most apparent when reading the comments by RoyalHeritageAlb above. Royal Heritage Alb claims that for the article and its introduction to conform with the encyclopedia's policy on neutrality it is necessary to equally "highlight" both "sides" of Odysseas's descent, what s/he viewes -if I understand it correctly- as Greek and Albanian heritage, with the circumstances of his upbringing being a "detail" that should be ommitted from the introduction. "Is greek better and more important than arvanite?" s/he asks. For this editor, and it seems for other editors as well, ethnic descriptions are a matter of attributing equal value and importance in presenting a person's parentage and biological origins. However, a contemporary or historical agent's ethnic identity is not identical to biological descent. Ethnicity/Ethnic identity is not an objective given, that originates from the admixture of supposedly different biological traits that pertain to one's parents according to their origins. Ethnicity/Ethnic identity is part of a person's self-conception that is constructed as part of his/her identity formation and socialisation. Though it seems to treat the concept in a contemporary and not historical setting, referring primarily to the US, this encyclopedia's article on ethnic identity development is sufficient to provide a general view of the concept.
It is only when this misconception of ethnicity as a supposedly biological trait gives way to its proper understanding as part of a person's social self-perception that those insisting that Odysseas, being the son of an Arvanite, can not be Greek will be able to discuss relevant sources (secondary and also primary), that they understand why it is not against the encyclopedia's policy of neutrality to state that Odysseas was raised for the first (c.15-22) years of his life in an environment influenced by modern Greek Enlightenment ideas, that they will be able to fathom why it is not "absurd and provocative" [!] (as Nishjan asserted) to share -as I do- in Mazower's characterization of Odysseas as Greek when he served under Ali and that this discussion will have a chance of reaching a consensus on the increasingly various matters it has been dealing with. Ashmedai 119 ( talk) 07:43, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
Bato removed information sourced by several academic sources and replaced it with info by one unpublished PhD, nevertheless that's clear violation per wp:HISTRS. Published academic material should be preferred especially when unpublished material is in straight contradiction with scholarship. Alexikoua ( talk) 03:54, 5 July 2023 (UTC)