![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Can't Wikipedia allow edits for simple things like grammar and usage? For example, this sounds terrible: "This, compounded with only 18 percent arable land..." There's a remote antecedent (pronoun reference problem) and a nonstandard preposition. It would sound better to write "The famine, compounded by..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.44.82.69 ( talk) 10:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Is total weasle wording - it's almost as bad as tagging "so-called" onto something. North Korea is so widely considered to be a dictatorship there's no need to mention the media at all. -- 129.67.116.164 ( talk) 23:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Reading the talk page it seems there has been some comical hair-splitting by people uninterested in reality. To ammend this I've found a number of citations of "non-western" or "2nd/3rd world" sources refering to North Korea as a dictatorship. I've got Nigeriaworld [1], The Times of India ("North Korea, officially known as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, is one of the world's most oppressive, closed, and vicious dictatorships") [2]), and The Journal of Turkish Weekly quoting some Namibian dude saying that NK is a "dictatorship" [3].
All from a five minute search of google news. Except none of these are needed now, as I think it's extremely easly to establish that public opinion in both developed and developing world (with the exception of China) is pretty united. -- 62.69.37.58 ( talk) 23:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Does this make sense? It was also considered the 2nd-least industrialized nation in Asia, after Japan. Japan is the least industrialized nation in asia? What about Bangladesh? This must be second most. I'm going to modify this. Dan ( talk) 07:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The Stalinist mention in the intro is highly propagandistic and undescriptive, during the Sino-Soviet Split the DPRK retained somewhat of a neutral stance on Stalin, in fact 'Juche' came about as a response to the pressure it felt to take one side or the other, instead it opted for self-reliance in such matters.
Furthermore it should be noted that the DPRK rejected Marxism-Leninism (Stalinism) decades ago, and removed all references in their Constitution to it etc, seeing as they think Juche and the 'Socialism of the Korean style' is superior to all ideologies.
As such, 'Stalinist state' in the intro is a little silly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.131.39.158 ( talk) 11:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
More or less undisputed characteristics of a 'Stalinist' state: an extensive use of propaganda to establish a personality cult around an absolute dictator, as well as extensive use of the secret police to maintain social submission and silence political dissent. Taken from the article on stalinism - i'd say this defeinition pretty much fits North Korea. It may not idolise Stalin or the USSR itself, and it did break with it, but its system of governance is a perfect example of a Stalinist state.
Your using the nominal perjorative form of Stalinism, not the substantive one, as such having 'Stalinist', especially at the top of the article, is highly propagandistic and not NPOV. Your using 'Stalinist' as a propaganda term for a dictatorship or totalitarian state, not the actual extensive writings and Marxist-Leninist concepts of Joseph Stalin himself. As such I am removing the reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.177.33.228 ( talk) 10:19, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I'm quite interested in North Korea in general (been there recently), and I'd like to contribute to the article. Maybe we could work together and first try to remove POV to get rid of the POV-check tag. I'll list what I think is POV-oriented and my proposals to fix it (forgive my english, not being a native speaker), please do the same if you can.
That's it I think, can you help? Do you see other required changes? Mthibault ( talk) 16:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
In North Korea it is illegal for other political parties to meet and take part in elections. Why is it when ever the phrase Single Party State is added to the article it is deleted? North Korea does only haee one legal political party and that is the Worker's Party of Korea. It even says in the article "Politics of North Korea" that the DPRK functions as a single party state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiDespot666 ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This needs to be discussed by the larger audience of editors and North Korea watchers who participate in Wikipedia. First there was some back-and-forth with arbitrarily deletions of my blog (which had been there for a couple of years prior) under the “External Links” and “Weblogs” header, then the deletion of the entire sub-category of “Weblogs.” I’ve restored these links myself a few times, but several others have also recognized the anarchic nature of the deletions and restored them. Mthibault is responsible for most of the deletions and has apparently taken it upon himself to judge that these blogs are either spam or promoting something other than analysis of North Korean issues. Note that these are *not* links or references to blogs being placed in the main article, but clearly under “Weblogs” in “External Links.” The blogs listed are in fact very serious, for the most part written by specialists, and well read among Korea watchers, which makes them particularly pertinent to this page. Let’s hear your thoughts, please. Dprkstudies ( talk) 00:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Responding to the Third opinion request - this dispute seems to involve more than two editors, so I'm not sure it's a good case for 3rdOp. Although only two editors had commented here (at the point the request was made, prior to LessHeard vanU's helpful comments), further editors had commented on Dprkstudies' talk page, and another editor has become involved in reinstating the blog links. I agree with the suggestion that a Request for comment would be more suitable, and also that the weblogs section is removed until the dispute reaches consensus. I have also asked Dprkstudies to consider removing the wikipedia-related post on his blog, per WP policy on recruiting allies in content disputes. Eve Hall ( talk) 11:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
As explained above, the weblogs section has been moved here from the article page until discussion reaches consensus:
- One Free Korea: Updated daily; focusing on human rights, political, economic, and military issues, often with Google-Earth tours of North Korea's most secret places
- NK Zone: Includes a variety of perspectives, with a greater focus on cultural and economic issues
- RU NK: Focusing primarily on human rights issues, by a member of Liberty in North Korea
- North Korean Economy Watch: Clearing house of informaiton on economic and cultural issues
- News of North Korea: news about North Korean refugees and the situation inside of the country
- Google Earth tour of Camp 22, a North Korean concentration camp, with embedded video descriptions by survivors and former guards
- DPRK Studies: Focused on North Korean security, political, and social issues
- North Korea Monitor: A blog on the latest news related to North Korea
There seems to be some confusion as to what the External Links Policy ( Wikipedia:EL) actually states. Please see item four (4) of the External Links policy under both, “What should be linked,” and “Links to be considered;”
Concerning blogs, note they are listed in item 11 under, “Links normally to be avoided,”
Mthibault has stated (in a comment on my blog) that, “links to blogs (of any kind) should be avoided,” which I believe misinterprets both the letter and spirit of the policy, and is more of an opinion. It should be noted that this did not start as the entire section (which had been there for a couple of years prior with no issue, including my own blog) being deleted, but one blog being arbitrarily singled out and deleted, for which an explanation was asked for a few times but never provided. I was under the impression that justifying such deletions, i.e. answering direction questions concerning them, was the norm. I don’t think anyone is arguing that the blogs listed are not entirely relevant to the topic of North Korea (under what should be linked). Even if one considers the blogs not to be “reliable sources,” they are definitely from “knowledgeable sources,” at least for this topic (under links to be considered). Also, there is no prohibition on linking to blogs in the External Links policy, unless you ignore the word “normally” in the heading for that section of the policy. The key here concerns, “those written by… recognized authorit[ies].” One could argue that the general public doesn’t know who, for example, Joshua Stanton or Richardson are, but most of the public won’t know where Pyongyang or Wonson are either. However these blogs are recognized authorities on North Korea within the Korea-blogosphere. The question to ask is this; what would be beneficial to the reader. Since the main article is not meant to cover closely current events (e.g. related to diplomacy, security, economics, human rights, etc.), linking to blogs that do should be beneficial to the reader looking for just such external links. Dprkstudies ( talk) 14:05, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I have been invited to review this matter again, and it is my conclusion that outside opinion is required to settle the matter of the validity of the named blogspaces under WP:EL. If someone wants to draft an RfC - in a neutral tone, simply requesting consensus on the application of policy - then I will certify it. I would, however, advise that http(colon)//www(dot)dprkstudies(dot)org/ will not be able to be linked, while User:Dprkstudies edits North Korea related articles, per Wikipedia:EL#Advertising and conflicts of interest and the wording "You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked." This policy point makes no claim on the validity of the blog, or its appropriateness otherwise under policy, but only that there cannot be a decision on merit where an editor has such a conflict of interest - it would be too much a debating point on where the line is drawn, and the wording seems to be that there is no instance where such a potential COI can be allowed. I suggest that removal of this bloglink/COI will allow Dprkstudies to more actively promote the inclusion of the other blogs without hinderance. As I said, I will certify a properly worded RfC and feel that this is the next (and hopefully final) step in resolving this matter. LessHeard vanU ( talk) 21:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I suggest we move on to build consensus on what external links should be in the article. May I suggest everyone looks around for articles that were given FA status in the same category? Again, if any link I left is not consensual, please remove it. I'll post the list I propose a bit later in the day. Mthibault ( talk) 06:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with having a consensus on what external links should be in the article. It should decrease amounts of non-credible resources.-- DavidD4scnrt ( talk) 04:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I thought it might help move the discussion on if I summarised some of the content and policy points that have been raised so far.
"Some external links are welcome (see What to link), but Wikipedia's purpose is not to include a comprehensive list of external links related to each topic. No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable." WP:EL, see also WP:NOT#LINKS
Eve Hall ( talk) 15:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm requesting for comments on the changes I made to remove the POV tag and on the EL conflict. Mthibault ( talk) 17:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes indeed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adomas21 ( talk • contribs) 02:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I'm mediating on behalf of the mediation cabal. For any outside commentators, here is the most recent version to contain the section in question. I'll point the editors to a couple of policies that are relevant: WP:LINKFARM and WP:EL. I want to make particular mention of the section WP:ELNO, or "Links to avoid", which specifically mentions blog links, unless "written by a recognized authority". There are two issues that need to be addressed here: 1) are any of these blogs written by a recognized authority, and 2) if so, are these blogs serving a purpose in the article that goes above WP:LINKFARM? JeremyMcCracken ( talk) ( contribs) 18:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Of the two issues I'd raised, the LINKFARM issue is gone, as the mass of ELs were removed. I'll point out that WP:EL doesn't exclude blogs outright- it requires an exception to include one. It requires each one to be assessed on an individual basis. Blogs can be included in they are by a "recognized authority".
In regards to OneFreeKorea, the blog's author is Joshua Stanton. Per the google books link above, we're told that Stanton was "a Judge Advocate Officer in the U.S. Army, U.S. Forces Korea, from 1998 to 2002." I can also find reference of the blog being used as a news source. Per that, I would consider Stanton to be a recognized authority.
Considering DPRK separately, we have to look at the qualifications of its creator, C. Richardson, a.k.a. User:Dprkstudies (I've left his full name off in case there are anonymity concerns; I found it on a linked article from the about link above). Richardson doesn't have the government involvement of Joshua Stanton; while he has worked with the Department of Defense, this doesn't imply a Korea tie. We therefore have to look at how widespread the blog is recognized by the community. I found one mention in a U.S. newspaper as to a posting on DPRK Studies. G-hits seem to be borderline on showing a widespread base of the blog, so I'm undecided as to its status as a "recognizable authority". Can any news sources be provided that would show a mention of it in the media, books, seral publications, etc., or something that could show a deeper involvement in Korean affaris? (e.g., a source to show that you've worked for the government, through the U.S. government in Korea, etc.) JeremyMcCracken ( talk) ( contribs) 06:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Let me make a couple of points. First, with the absence of a good definition of "recognized authority", I was using two criteria: 1) that the author could be considered an expert in the field; 2) that the blog has widespread acceptance. I felt that OneFreeKorea met that. In looking at the other blogs (excepting DPRK, which I'll get to), some don't work at all, but I can't find any from the working ones where the author has anything to declare them an expert. I wasn't going off of the congressional testimony from Stanton, but rather, his employment with the Army that specifically dealt with Korea. In that vein, I'll mention that I did find something to show Richardson of DPRK worked with Korea- his DoD work was related to southeast Asia, as mentioned in an article that was published by a another organization. Keep in mind, experts in any field often get published in other journals, and these publications are usually intended to push an argument.
In regards to the intelligence RfC, two points: 1) that looks to be in the "no consensus" zone (keep in mind, it's a discussion, not a tallied vote); 2) a number of those wishing exclusion had a problem with the blog's advertising and promotional tone, which varies per the EL. If there are concerns with either of these, please include them, for they're worth considering.
I've been trying to determine the circulation and use in regards to the DPRK blog, but google's throwing false hits, so I'm having to sift. As yet, I'm not finding much to show widespread use. If Dprkstudies could provide any instances of it being cited in a non-blog medium, that would be helpful.
I didn't make mention of it because we already know it- Dprkstudies is arguing for inclusion of his own blog. While that is a COI, I'd prefer to take each link on its own merits.
BTW everybody seems very angry today; please, we're all adults, lets not attack those who don't share our opinions. JeremyMcCracken ( talk) ( contribs) 20:10, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Answers:
JeremyMcCracken ( talk) ( contribs) 20:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd prefer you do this, as you'd know any additional involved parties. I was going by the parties listed at medcab, but if you feel there are more, they'd need to be included. JeremyMcCracken ( talk) ( contribs) 20:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Dprkstudies, do you think you could prove ownership of your blog by clearly laying out your credentials as an expert? Would that make it accepatable for inclusion? Geoff Plourde ( talk) 00:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
If I am not too late to the discussion, I'd like to voice my support for the inclusion of DPRK Studies and One Free Korea blogs to the EL section. I am a regular reader of both blogs and can vouch that these blogs are read by people seeking reliable information on North Korea. OFK in particular posts original content obtained from government and other authoritative sources. Both blogs are critical of the North Korean regime, but that should not disqualify them. Given the nature of the regime, it would be hard to find a reliable, trustworthy source with a NPOV since it's hard to be neutral about the serious accusations of gross human rights abuses. The hagiographic treatment of its former and present leader and fantastic claims found on authoritative DPRK government websites are balanced by including ELs with critical content.
Sonagi ( talk) 21:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)— sonagi ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
Can't Wikipedia allow edits for simple things like grammar and usage? For example, this sounds terrible: "This, compounded with only 18 percent arable land..." There's a remote antecedent (pronoun reference problem) and a nonstandard preposition. It would sound better to write "The famine, compounded by..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.44.82.69 ( talk) 10:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Is total weasle wording - it's almost as bad as tagging "so-called" onto something. North Korea is so widely considered to be a dictatorship there's no need to mention the media at all. -- 129.67.116.164 ( talk) 23:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Reading the talk page it seems there has been some comical hair-splitting by people uninterested in reality. To ammend this I've found a number of citations of "non-western" or "2nd/3rd world" sources refering to North Korea as a dictatorship. I've got Nigeriaworld [1], The Times of India ("North Korea, officially known as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, is one of the world's most oppressive, closed, and vicious dictatorships") [2]), and The Journal of Turkish Weekly quoting some Namibian dude saying that NK is a "dictatorship" [3].
All from a five minute search of google news. Except none of these are needed now, as I think it's extremely easly to establish that public opinion in both developed and developing world (with the exception of China) is pretty united. -- 62.69.37.58 ( talk) 23:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Does this make sense? It was also considered the 2nd-least industrialized nation in Asia, after Japan. Japan is the least industrialized nation in asia? What about Bangladesh? This must be second most. I'm going to modify this. Dan ( talk) 07:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The Stalinist mention in the intro is highly propagandistic and undescriptive, during the Sino-Soviet Split the DPRK retained somewhat of a neutral stance on Stalin, in fact 'Juche' came about as a response to the pressure it felt to take one side or the other, instead it opted for self-reliance in such matters.
Furthermore it should be noted that the DPRK rejected Marxism-Leninism (Stalinism) decades ago, and removed all references in their Constitution to it etc, seeing as they think Juche and the 'Socialism of the Korean style' is superior to all ideologies.
As such, 'Stalinist state' in the intro is a little silly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.131.39.158 ( talk) 11:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
More or less undisputed characteristics of a 'Stalinist' state: an extensive use of propaganda to establish a personality cult around an absolute dictator, as well as extensive use of the secret police to maintain social submission and silence political dissent. Taken from the article on stalinism - i'd say this defeinition pretty much fits North Korea. It may not idolise Stalin or the USSR itself, and it did break with it, but its system of governance is a perfect example of a Stalinist state.
Your using the nominal perjorative form of Stalinism, not the substantive one, as such having 'Stalinist', especially at the top of the article, is highly propagandistic and not NPOV. Your using 'Stalinist' as a propaganda term for a dictatorship or totalitarian state, not the actual extensive writings and Marxist-Leninist concepts of Joseph Stalin himself. As such I am removing the reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.177.33.228 ( talk) 10:19, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I'm quite interested in North Korea in general (been there recently), and I'd like to contribute to the article. Maybe we could work together and first try to remove POV to get rid of the POV-check tag. I'll list what I think is POV-oriented and my proposals to fix it (forgive my english, not being a native speaker), please do the same if you can.
That's it I think, can you help? Do you see other required changes? Mthibault ( talk) 16:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
In North Korea it is illegal for other political parties to meet and take part in elections. Why is it when ever the phrase Single Party State is added to the article it is deleted? North Korea does only haee one legal political party and that is the Worker's Party of Korea. It even says in the article "Politics of North Korea" that the DPRK functions as a single party state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiDespot666 ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This needs to be discussed by the larger audience of editors and North Korea watchers who participate in Wikipedia. First there was some back-and-forth with arbitrarily deletions of my blog (which had been there for a couple of years prior) under the “External Links” and “Weblogs” header, then the deletion of the entire sub-category of “Weblogs.” I’ve restored these links myself a few times, but several others have also recognized the anarchic nature of the deletions and restored them. Mthibault is responsible for most of the deletions and has apparently taken it upon himself to judge that these blogs are either spam or promoting something other than analysis of North Korean issues. Note that these are *not* links or references to blogs being placed in the main article, but clearly under “Weblogs” in “External Links.” The blogs listed are in fact very serious, for the most part written by specialists, and well read among Korea watchers, which makes them particularly pertinent to this page. Let’s hear your thoughts, please. Dprkstudies ( talk) 00:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Responding to the Third opinion request - this dispute seems to involve more than two editors, so I'm not sure it's a good case for 3rdOp. Although only two editors had commented here (at the point the request was made, prior to LessHeard vanU's helpful comments), further editors had commented on Dprkstudies' talk page, and another editor has become involved in reinstating the blog links. I agree with the suggestion that a Request for comment would be more suitable, and also that the weblogs section is removed until the dispute reaches consensus. I have also asked Dprkstudies to consider removing the wikipedia-related post on his blog, per WP policy on recruiting allies in content disputes. Eve Hall ( talk) 11:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
As explained above, the weblogs section has been moved here from the article page until discussion reaches consensus:
- One Free Korea: Updated daily; focusing on human rights, political, economic, and military issues, often with Google-Earth tours of North Korea's most secret places
- NK Zone: Includes a variety of perspectives, with a greater focus on cultural and economic issues
- RU NK: Focusing primarily on human rights issues, by a member of Liberty in North Korea
- North Korean Economy Watch: Clearing house of informaiton on economic and cultural issues
- News of North Korea: news about North Korean refugees and the situation inside of the country
- Google Earth tour of Camp 22, a North Korean concentration camp, with embedded video descriptions by survivors and former guards
- DPRK Studies: Focused on North Korean security, political, and social issues
- North Korea Monitor: A blog on the latest news related to North Korea
There seems to be some confusion as to what the External Links Policy ( Wikipedia:EL) actually states. Please see item four (4) of the External Links policy under both, “What should be linked,” and “Links to be considered;”
Concerning blogs, note they are listed in item 11 under, “Links normally to be avoided,”
Mthibault has stated (in a comment on my blog) that, “links to blogs (of any kind) should be avoided,” which I believe misinterprets both the letter and spirit of the policy, and is more of an opinion. It should be noted that this did not start as the entire section (which had been there for a couple of years prior with no issue, including my own blog) being deleted, but one blog being arbitrarily singled out and deleted, for which an explanation was asked for a few times but never provided. I was under the impression that justifying such deletions, i.e. answering direction questions concerning them, was the norm. I don’t think anyone is arguing that the blogs listed are not entirely relevant to the topic of North Korea (under what should be linked). Even if one considers the blogs not to be “reliable sources,” they are definitely from “knowledgeable sources,” at least for this topic (under links to be considered). Also, there is no prohibition on linking to blogs in the External Links policy, unless you ignore the word “normally” in the heading for that section of the policy. The key here concerns, “those written by… recognized authorit[ies].” One could argue that the general public doesn’t know who, for example, Joshua Stanton or Richardson are, but most of the public won’t know where Pyongyang or Wonson are either. However these blogs are recognized authorities on North Korea within the Korea-blogosphere. The question to ask is this; what would be beneficial to the reader. Since the main article is not meant to cover closely current events (e.g. related to diplomacy, security, economics, human rights, etc.), linking to blogs that do should be beneficial to the reader looking for just such external links. Dprkstudies ( talk) 14:05, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I have been invited to review this matter again, and it is my conclusion that outside opinion is required to settle the matter of the validity of the named blogspaces under WP:EL. If someone wants to draft an RfC - in a neutral tone, simply requesting consensus on the application of policy - then I will certify it. I would, however, advise that http(colon)//www(dot)dprkstudies(dot)org/ will not be able to be linked, while User:Dprkstudies edits North Korea related articles, per Wikipedia:EL#Advertising and conflicts of interest and the wording "You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked." This policy point makes no claim on the validity of the blog, or its appropriateness otherwise under policy, but only that there cannot be a decision on merit where an editor has such a conflict of interest - it would be too much a debating point on where the line is drawn, and the wording seems to be that there is no instance where such a potential COI can be allowed. I suggest that removal of this bloglink/COI will allow Dprkstudies to more actively promote the inclusion of the other blogs without hinderance. As I said, I will certify a properly worded RfC and feel that this is the next (and hopefully final) step in resolving this matter. LessHeard vanU ( talk) 21:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi everyone, I suggest we move on to build consensus on what external links should be in the article. May I suggest everyone looks around for articles that were given FA status in the same category? Again, if any link I left is not consensual, please remove it. I'll post the list I propose a bit later in the day. Mthibault ( talk) 06:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with having a consensus on what external links should be in the article. It should decrease amounts of non-credible resources.-- DavidD4scnrt ( talk) 04:20, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I thought it might help move the discussion on if I summarised some of the content and policy points that have been raised so far.
"Some external links are welcome (see What to link), but Wikipedia's purpose is not to include a comprehensive list of external links related to each topic. No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable." WP:EL, see also WP:NOT#LINKS
Eve Hall ( talk) 15:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm requesting for comments on the changes I made to remove the POV tag and on the EL conflict. Mthibault ( talk) 17:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes indeed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adomas21 ( talk • contribs) 02:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I'm mediating on behalf of the mediation cabal. For any outside commentators, here is the most recent version to contain the section in question. I'll point the editors to a couple of policies that are relevant: WP:LINKFARM and WP:EL. I want to make particular mention of the section WP:ELNO, or "Links to avoid", which specifically mentions blog links, unless "written by a recognized authority". There are two issues that need to be addressed here: 1) are any of these blogs written by a recognized authority, and 2) if so, are these blogs serving a purpose in the article that goes above WP:LINKFARM? JeremyMcCracken ( talk) ( contribs) 18:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Of the two issues I'd raised, the LINKFARM issue is gone, as the mass of ELs were removed. I'll point out that WP:EL doesn't exclude blogs outright- it requires an exception to include one. It requires each one to be assessed on an individual basis. Blogs can be included in they are by a "recognized authority".
In regards to OneFreeKorea, the blog's author is Joshua Stanton. Per the google books link above, we're told that Stanton was "a Judge Advocate Officer in the U.S. Army, U.S. Forces Korea, from 1998 to 2002." I can also find reference of the blog being used as a news source. Per that, I would consider Stanton to be a recognized authority.
Considering DPRK separately, we have to look at the qualifications of its creator, C. Richardson, a.k.a. User:Dprkstudies (I've left his full name off in case there are anonymity concerns; I found it on a linked article from the about link above). Richardson doesn't have the government involvement of Joshua Stanton; while he has worked with the Department of Defense, this doesn't imply a Korea tie. We therefore have to look at how widespread the blog is recognized by the community. I found one mention in a U.S. newspaper as to a posting on DPRK Studies. G-hits seem to be borderline on showing a widespread base of the blog, so I'm undecided as to its status as a "recognizable authority". Can any news sources be provided that would show a mention of it in the media, books, seral publications, etc., or something that could show a deeper involvement in Korean affaris? (e.g., a source to show that you've worked for the government, through the U.S. government in Korea, etc.) JeremyMcCracken ( talk) ( contribs) 06:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Let me make a couple of points. First, with the absence of a good definition of "recognized authority", I was using two criteria: 1) that the author could be considered an expert in the field; 2) that the blog has widespread acceptance. I felt that OneFreeKorea met that. In looking at the other blogs (excepting DPRK, which I'll get to), some don't work at all, but I can't find any from the working ones where the author has anything to declare them an expert. I wasn't going off of the congressional testimony from Stanton, but rather, his employment with the Army that specifically dealt with Korea. In that vein, I'll mention that I did find something to show Richardson of DPRK worked with Korea- his DoD work was related to southeast Asia, as mentioned in an article that was published by a another organization. Keep in mind, experts in any field often get published in other journals, and these publications are usually intended to push an argument.
In regards to the intelligence RfC, two points: 1) that looks to be in the "no consensus" zone (keep in mind, it's a discussion, not a tallied vote); 2) a number of those wishing exclusion had a problem with the blog's advertising and promotional tone, which varies per the EL. If there are concerns with either of these, please include them, for they're worth considering.
I've been trying to determine the circulation and use in regards to the DPRK blog, but google's throwing false hits, so I'm having to sift. As yet, I'm not finding much to show widespread use. If Dprkstudies could provide any instances of it being cited in a non-blog medium, that would be helpful.
I didn't make mention of it because we already know it- Dprkstudies is arguing for inclusion of his own blog. While that is a COI, I'd prefer to take each link on its own merits.
BTW everybody seems very angry today; please, we're all adults, lets not attack those who don't share our opinions. JeremyMcCracken ( talk) ( contribs) 20:10, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Answers:
JeremyMcCracken ( talk) ( contribs) 20:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd prefer you do this, as you'd know any additional involved parties. I was going by the parties listed at medcab, but if you feel there are more, they'd need to be included. JeremyMcCracken ( talk) ( contribs) 20:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Dprkstudies, do you think you could prove ownership of your blog by clearly laying out your credentials as an expert? Would that make it accepatable for inclusion? Geoff Plourde ( talk) 00:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
If I am not too late to the discussion, I'd like to voice my support for the inclusion of DPRK Studies and One Free Korea blogs to the EL section. I am a regular reader of both blogs and can vouch that these blogs are read by people seeking reliable information on North Korea. OFK in particular posts original content obtained from government and other authoritative sources. Both blogs are critical of the North Korean regime, but that should not disqualify them. Given the nature of the regime, it would be hard to find a reliable, trustworthy source with a NPOV since it's hard to be neutral about the serious accusations of gross human rights abuses. The hagiographic treatment of its former and present leader and fantastic claims found on authoritative DPRK government websites are balanced by including ELs with critical content.
Sonagi ( talk) 21:43, 22 April 2008 (UTC)— sonagi ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |