Is there something wrong with freedom of speech? Is somthing wrong with being able to voice your opinion? PEople educated such as you must be able to put these together? By the way any one care looking up how the ADL was formed. It is a criminally openly one sided organization.
---
We forgot to add that Mr Finkelstein is called a 'self-hating Jew' as well (corrected). For sources see his webpage (mail section), there are Jewish leaders that name him so, so we could add who is saying that. Also it is important to add his email section for opinions and debate (added). I remember reading that he has shaken the hand of (now late) Hamas leader, will we add that he is associated with the terrorists, Al-Quaeda? And why not just reproduce the ADL backgrounder here in full (smartly, as copyright restrictions still apply)? Just email the ADL and they will be pleased to help.
And by the way, ADL recently lost in court specifically for defaming people (accused a pair in anti-Semitism, intimidated and forced them out of business), couple of millions were paid. I suggest adding this information where ADL's opinions are mentioned (specifically its "holocaust denial" claim, and Foxman's "self-hating Jew").
---
http://www.olokaustos.org/saggi/interviste/finkel-en4.htm Now, 81, there it is, in your Saint Finkelstein's own words, that people have accused him of Holocaust Denial. All we say, and all you keep deleting, is that he's been accused. That's it. It's been verified. It's accurate. Now stop this constant reverting. Leumi AdL was founded to fight anti-semitism and other forms of racism. It does support Israel no one callls simple criticism of Israel anti-semitic. Norman Finklestein come sup with all these big anti-semitic lies.-Dendoi
(sigh) 81, point your browser to this letter from the ADL, which explicitly calls Finkelstein a "Holocaust denier". Whatever the validity of the accusations, however ridiculous they are, they have been made, and made by an organization with some weight in the courts of public opinion. Is that enough? (And if you're going to keep up these edit wars, will you please log in?) -- Mirv 22:47, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
-Leumi
81, whether you like the accusations against Finkelstein or not, they do exist; they were made by an influential group with a noticeable public voice; they are not Leumi's, nor are they mine. May I suggest that you, for the sake of balance and neutrality, find and note Finkelstein's responses to the charges, rather than simply removing them from the article? Obviously he denies them -- as I've noted -- but more detail would be appropriate. -- Mirv 23:23, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Oh joy, another edit war over who made the accusations. To stop this one before it gets rolling, I'll just point out that Friedman used an ADL letterhead and said, in the last paragraph, "[w]e would be very pleased to meet with you" and "[w]e look forward to the opportunity to discuss this matter" thus making it quite clear that he was speaking for the ADL. "The Anti-Defamation League accused . . . " -- rather than "David Friedman of the Anti-Defamation League accused. . ." -- is a more accurate statement. -- Mirv 00:15, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This page is inaccuarate.
This page is inaccurate because of Leumi's continuing vandalism
I'll say it again: If you have a problem with the article, fix it: name the inaccuracies, show how they're wrong, and change them so they're right. Simply accusing Leumi of vandalism is neither constructive nor helpful; please don't do it. -- Mirv
Actually, I do have a big problem with you describing my edits of
Norman Finkelstein as "un-necessary reversions." Look again at the history and the changes and summary explanations closely. I made exactly one reversion and I provided what I considered to be a very good justification for it, but I found 81's response to it compelling. I believe the only reason that my edit is the last in the history is that I struck a compromise that both I and 81 were content with.
168... 16:58, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC) (That comment went out of date quickly
168... 17:06, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC))
I don't think I have been making too many "un-necessary revisions". The revisions I and 168.. made are essential parts of the back and forth process that creates an article, I felt. And I think calling 168...'s revisions unecessary is even less deserved, as he tends to be slightly more concise than I am about certain things. However, on the issues in the text and on most things, I think you've been perfectly reasonable and value your help here. Your mediation has helped things out a lot and I'd appreciate if you stick around. :) Leumi 17:07, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Anonymous IP, read the ADL letter again. Notice what it says about Finkelstein -- it's in the second paragraph. To assert that the ADL said what it said "without providing evidence" is an egregious falsehood. By all means use more neutral language, but don't make up lies. -- Mirv 14:46, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
And Leumi, the same admonition goes for you. The ADL letter complained of inciting hatred and condoning -- not inciting -- violence against Israel. -- Mirv 15:31, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Anonymous, he's very public and unashamed in his support for Hezbollah -- it's not "alleged". Read this letter, where he says, referring to a lecture he gave in Lebanon, "I did make a point of publicly honoring the heroic resistance of Hezbollah to foreign occupation." -- Mirv 15:47, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Two reasons, two charges: Holocaust denial because of The Holocaust Industry, the stuff about Israel because of Hezbollah. Is the rewrite clearer? -- Mirv 15:56, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Nevertheless, that's what they said. It is evidence, however specious. Saying that the ADL provided no evidence is intentional misinformation. Encyclopedia articles should not contain misinformation. Am I making myself clear?
The readers may decide for themselves whether the evidence warrants the accusations; it is not our business to take sides on the matter, only to report what happened. -- Mirv 16:03, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
If I'm reading your fragmented sentences correctly, you seem to have confused two issues here: the first is whether Finkelstein denies the Holocaust or not (he does not, and the article makes no claim that he does); the second is whether the Anti-Defamation League had any reason to think that Finkelstein denies the Holocaust -- which they said they did (read the letter again). Vague evidence is evidence; the reader should decide its validity, not you. -- Mirv 16:16, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
There is no evidence that the ADl has provided evidence that Fink is Holo Denier. Saying that the moon is made of cheese because I feel hungry is not evidence that the moon is made of cheese.
RE: "Holocaust denial because of The Holocaust Industry"
Even staunch Zionists such as [http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22969 Debbie Schlussel ]have criticised the 'holocaust industry'. Does this make her a holocaust-denier as well?-- Conch Shell 13:40, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous one, you can't blank large swathes of the article just because you don't like them. Controversies surrounding Finkelstein's public activities are a part of his life whether you like them or not; you can't just decide that they're "non-biographical". Why don't you do some research and find out more about Finkelstein if you so badly want to improve this article? -- Mirv 17:47, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Also to anonymous User: Why did you remove Finkelstein's own words on Hezbollah. You removed the words " for what he calls, "having inflicted an exceptional and deserving defeat on their foreign occupiers," which stated nothing more than a direct quote from Finkelstein. As stated above, you can't remove anything that you think will reflect badly on Finkelstein. It is a direct quote by him, and you haven't provided any justification for removing it. Leumi 23:37, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Re: Finkelstein on Hezbollah -- If nobody minds, we should go with the version from the letter from which I extracted the other pro-Hezbollah quotations, rather than the ADL's quotation of a speech/lecture that's not transcribed anywhere accessible; that'll avoid the problem of possible misquotation.
And anonymatron, please don't make major changes without an edit summary, and if you are going to keep up these edit wars, I reiterate my request that you log in. -- Mirv 23:40, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I love you class Dr. Finkelstein!! Farah Merchant
I am not involved in this article (though I have opinions on it), but it unavoidably and annoyingly keeps coming up in Recent Changes. I am not commenting on it in any way, except to ask 195.xxx.... to cut out the "Irgun supporter" silliness, whether you agree with Leumi or not. Just for the sake of clarity, leumi is the Hebrew adjective for "national" (masculine gender). It means nothing else. There is even a large bank in Israel called Bank Leumi. Yes, the Irgun Zvai Leumi (National Military Organization) used the term in their name. Calling him an Irgun supporter, however, is about as baseless as calling him a "bank supporter." Why not keep to the arguments at hand, which seem to be proceeding in a fairly civil manner, despite the differences. Danny 23:49, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
--
As Noam Chomsky once said "The Anti-Defamation League specializes in defamation". I dispute the claim in the article that the ADL fights anti-semitism, it seems especially curious that in the case of Mr. Finkelstein the person they would be calling anti-semitic is a Jew. Perhaps anti-Zionism would be a closer match? Anyhow, I have changed that the ADL fights anti-semitism, to the ADL says it fights anti-semitism, putting their claim that they do so is fine, but as a claim, not a fact. -- Lancemurdoch 06:39, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The problem that I have with that is it unduely emphasizes one part of the organization. This is the organization's mission statement:
If you look at the amicus curiae briefs filed by the ADL [2], you may decide that the organization is not conservative at all but rather liberal. such as:
There are a number of others listed on the website that call into question the characterization of the ADL as "conservative". OneVoice 18:52, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
In the 1960s. the FBI collaborated with the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) of B’nai B’rith to infiltrate and spy upon a wide variety of dissident American political organizations. The names of some 62,000 American political dissidents were held in the FBI’s files during that period. ... FBI guidelines were changed dramatically in the mid-1970s after widespread public outrage upon the discovery of the COINTELPRO operation—following the death of FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, who worked closely with the ADL. New protocols stipulated that the FBI was only permitted to deploy undercover operatives in churches and mosques or inside political organizations if investigators had first found “probable cause” that persons inside those groups may have committed a crime. After the institution of the guidelines restricting the FBI’s ability to spy on domestic political dissidents, however, the ADL rushed in to do the spying. The illicit fruits of the ADL’s intelligence ventures still ended up in the hands of the FBI, the BATF, the CIA, the IRS and other federal agencies with which the ADL maintained close contact. [3]
The ADL claims to be the nation's leading defender against prejudice and bigotry but in this instance its targets were members of the African National Congress and its supporters, and apparently everyone, Arab and non-Arab, who had the temerity to criticize Israel. This included some who drove to Arab community events where the ADL's "fact-finder", Roy Bullock, and the cop, Tom Gerard, took turns writing down their license plate numbers, which Gerard turned into addresses thanks to his access to California motor vehicle records. Their spying efforts proved to be part of a much larger intelligence gathering operation that targeted some 12,000 individuals and more than 600 left-of-center organizations in northern California. [...] Last November the California Court of Appeals handed down a decision that paves the way for a major test later this year of the ADL's penchant for spying on its enemies. It was the most significant episode in a slow-moving class-action case filed in 1993 by 19 pro-Palestinian and anti-apartheid activists who claim to be victims of the ADL's snooping operations. [4]
While the founding fathers may have opposed vouchers, there is no evidence they would have opposed it on 'separation of church and state' grounds. Thats the whole basis of the modern political argument--what a meaningful separation of church and state entails. Conservatives say that the founding fathers did not mean an absolute and complete legal disassociation between activities of the state and activities of the church---especially in the case of things like vouchers that may go to religious schools or funds that may go to faith-based organizations, when the religious group is just one of a number of organizations recieving funding. I haven't read most of the other discussion in this article; but I just wanted to comment on the fact that you didn't quite seem to get this fundamental point in the modern political debate. Would Eisenhower have argued against vouchers because he thought government money has to be discriminatory against ending up in the hands of religious groups, like many people today will argue? Brianshapiro
Today, largely as a result of Finkelstein's analysis and criticism, Peters' book is controversial among scholars and largely disregarded. I do not understand this sentence. Something largely disregarded cannot be controversial at the same time. Could we make a decision whether it is taken seriously or not? Any "scholars" here? at 0 09:12, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Jay has asked me to comment. Certainly Finkelstein should be noted as a critic of Peters, as this is a big part of Finkelstein's narrative. But I'm not sure about the idea that it was received with skepticism. What do you mean by "mainstream publication"? The mass media in the US certainly seems to have given a positive reception to the book. Part of the problem here may have to do with the way reviews are done in the US. Mainstream non-scholarly publications in the US generally invite broadly defined "Men (or Women) of Letters," or public intellectuals, or what have you, to review books, rather than actual experts in the field in question. Scholarly journals, on the other hand, usually take a while to review books. In Britain, as I understand it, things are different, and actual experts review books. So what's going on here isn't an American, or an American scholarly, bias towards nonsense like Peters. It's a bias towards nonsense like Peters from hackish "public intellectuals" like Barbara Tuchman and Lucy Dawidowicz, and so forth. American scholars didn't really get themselves involved until after Israeli and British scholars attacked it in mainstream reviews. Now, it seems to me that this is a problem, but it's a problem that says more about the way American scholarly or pseudo-scholarly books are reviewed than it does about American bias towards Israel. And I think that Finkelstein/Said/Chomsky's account of how the controversy worked itself out should be taken with a very large grain of salt. These people have an agenda to push. Why not simply say that "Finkelstein's charges initially aroused little attention"? This is undeniably true. john k 15:39, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, I could continue to argue. I will note that "arousing little attention" and "being ignored" are quite different things - the first implies no normative judgment, while the second does. But I will say no more than that, and just ask whether or not my formulation is generally acceptable. john k 16:24, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can you quit saying "journal," when you mean "mainstream press," Sneaky? Scholarly journals were pretty uniform in either ignoring or attacking Peters's book, and as I noted, scholarly journals take along time to print reviews, anyway. "Journal" is a term which suggests the American Historical Review, not the New Republic or the Atlantic Monthly. That the mainstream press did not publish Finkelstein's work seems to be true. To attribute a motive to this seems to me to be inherently POV, especially when one is doing so based entirely on the say so of an interested party. john k 07:18, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sneaky, do you object to just saying that "Finkelstein's work roused little attention?" If so, why? If not, what are we arguing about? john k 01:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, there's issues of balance. How important, in the scope of an encyclopedia article about Finkelstein in general, is it to put a lengthy quote from him about this particular issue? Doesn't this rather unbalance things? Furthermore, there are NPOV issues - it seems to me that quoting Finkelstein at length implies that his view is accurate. And adding weaselly stuff at the end makes it even worse. I'd much prefer to keep it simple. He wrote the critique, and it didn't arouse much attention. Then British reviewers and so forth savaged it, and it was revived. Perhaps some point could be made that for Finkelstein and others, this showed the dominance of the American media by pro-Israeli elements (or whatever it is that Finkelstein is arguing), and in that context, perhaps, Finkelstein's quote is relevant. I don't think it's relevant as an explanation of what actually happened. john k 03:41, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1) Well, there's some bits that are unclear. What does it mean that periodicals that hadn't reviewed the book rejected Finkelstein's work on the subject "as of little or no consequence?" Which is of little consequence - Finkelstein's work, or Peters's? 2) I mean, I don't want to have "Finkelstein says such and such, but others would disagree." That's just annoying. 3) Yes, you're right, in that limited context. But isn't this the broader point that Finkelstein is making? It's certainly the point that Said makes in his review of the affair. While, out of context, the quote seems largely fine, it is part of a larger argument, isn't it? As such, I don't think we can take it as a dispassionated account of the facts. john k 07:03, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
(1) In the abovementioned Thanksgiving Day, 1985 issue of the NYT, Yehoshua Porath was quoted as saying that the Peters book "is a sheer forgery....In Israel, at least, the book was almost universally dismissed as sheer rubbish, except maybe as a propaganda weapon" (Image and Reality, 46-7). Porath is perhaps Israel's foremost expert on Palestinian history. "Hoax" and "sheer forgery" are not readily distinguishable in my view. Reviewers' assessments aside, Peters plagiarized entire passages from Ernst Frankenstein's Justice for My People, a Zionist propaganda tract (cf. Image and Reality, pp. 42-5). Yet, according to Jayjg, "to describe it as a 'hoax'" is "overblown and POV". Presumably describing it as "'a sheer forgery' that plagiarizes generously from Zionist propaganda" is also "overblown and POV". (2) A truly delusional assessment. (3) I don't claim that the "silence" from Finkelstein's critics on this matter proves that people agree with Finkelstein; ergo, there's no "logical fallacy", as I assume Jayjg is aware despite his accusation. I said, "'POV' suggests that there is some dispute. Clearly there is none here among informed observers." That doesn't mean he's right; however, it does mean that no one's challenged him - so who are we, as Wikipedia editors, to be the first, when our challenge would be solely based on speculation? But anyway, my proposal addreses this. I repeat: "how about this, guys: 'Finkelstein's critique initially roused little attention. According to Finkelstein, "[excerpt]".' Does that seem reasonable?" I think it's eminently reasonable, because it begins with some anodyne "NPOV" glossing, and then clearly attributes the (undisputed) narrative of events to Finkelstein. I'll go ahead and make the change, and, having already made every conceivable argument to substantiate it, will henceforth withdraw from this debate. sneaky 03:12, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
Wow. It isn't that he ought to be ashamed for his name; it's that I don't see his motive. -- VKokielov 04:02, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Xed, do you imagine that insertions like "meticulous scholarship and advocacy of positions on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict which are viewed as controversial by Zionists. He has been highly critical of exploitation of Holocaust survivors by Zionist organizations and has written extensively on the ideological abuse of anti-semitism and the Holocaust by supporters of Zionism and of Israel" are at all NPOV? Do you understand that the claim that he is known for "meticulous scholarship", that only Zionists view him as controversial, that Holocaust survivors are "exploited" by Zionist organizations, that supporters of Zionism and Israel "ideologically abuse" anti-semitism and the Holocaust are POV claims? Please take WP:NPOV seriously. Jayjg 18:53, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Please respond to my comment above - do you recognize the difference between a POV assertion and a statement of fact? Jayjg 19:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I have documented specific POV issues, among many - please read the comment above. Again, do you honestly think that phrases that assert he "argues persuasively" or which describe his works as "devastating" are NPOV? Do you think that removing actual citations and insering POV about Gov Schwarzenegger follow Wikipedia's editing policies? If you want to defend all the POV insertions made by that IP editor, feel free to do so here. Jayjg (talk) 19:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
No, Xed, "argues persuasively" is a POV, as are all the other items I have brought up. If the Max Stirner article contains simlar POV, that does not make it acceptable here. Furthermore, the article cannot adopt Finkelstein's POV as fact, but must present it as his position. Please take these issues (and Wikipedia policy) seriously, and justify these attempted inclusions. Jayjg 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Xed, Talk: pages are for the purpose of discussing article content; please try to do so. See previous comments above as well. Jayjg (talk) 20:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The outsourced edit-warring continues ( User_talk:Mel_Etitis#Norman_Finkelstein). You would think Jayjg would be circumspect in going against Wikipedia (see [9]) - Xed 09:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
In order to avoid edit-wars, we can begin to assign sourced to all opinions. What has been eliminated are Norman's POVs, and since this is an article about him these opinions should be included. We can't describe his positions as controversial, because all opinions are when they are not agreed upon 100%. Certainly the sources included at the bottom of the article support that he does have some POV critical to certain movements. -- Vizcarra 21:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
How about this: changing
The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) called Finkelstein a " Holocaust denier" and accused him of pursuing an anti-Semitic agenda.
to
Predictably, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) called Finkelstein a " Holocaust denier" and accused him of pursuing an anti-Semitic agenda, accusations Finkelstein flatly dismisses. "
Do we need to discuss here how this is a POV edit, or is it obvious to all? Or how about changing
Finkelstein has expanded his findings in a book entitled Beyond Chutzpah...
to
Finkelstein subsequently expanded his findings in a devastating volume entitled Beyond Chutzpah...
I'm not sure if this is the proper venue to discuss why the insertion of "devastating" is purely POV. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 22:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
certainly isn't. It is a fact that he's been called such by the ADL. "Predictably" is certainly POV, I give you that. -- Vizcarra 23:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) called Finkelstein a " Holocaust denier" and accused him of pursuing an anti-Semitic agenda.
After reviewing the discussoin here and the recent edits, I have reverted the edits. They seem to have added a large amount of POV material. I'm sure we can improve this article, but let's not add POV in the process. - Willmcw 05:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Apparently is was not the linked Fisher ( Mark Fisher) who said it, but rather Marc Fisher, a columnist for the Washington Post. As such, I'm not sure it's encyclopedic, as I don't know enough about Marc Fisher. Jayjg (talk) 22:21, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Norman G. Finkelstein (born December 8, 1953) is an American who is an assistant professor of political science at DePaul University. Although he claims to be a full professor, he is an assistant professor. Finkelstein is infamous for his ad hominem debating style. During lectures, such as at Yale University, and on webcasts, he often calls another person an "imbecile", "idiot", "fraud", or "liar". Unlike most professors (even assistant professors), he has never published a scholarly or research paper in a peer reviewed journal. His books are not published in the mainstream press.
Last addition to introduction (Finkelstein only being accepted by the far-right) is too debatable to include.
-Finkelstein includes ad hominum articles on his website that he disagrees with, the fact that the quote was taken from his website proves nothing, see his letters section which includes viscous hate mail.-HW
This is another example of the failure of wikipedia: "owners" of site take control and through fair or foul means (e.g. claiming an editor is a "vandalizer" and barring that editor from further edits) prevent opposing credited viewpoints from being posted. This article is replete with personal opinions (e.g. a book by Peters is "widely discredited" - bs). - by finkelsein supporters, who fight to delete opposing validated additions. and btw, unfortunately a jew can be an antisemite, in addition to finkelstein himself there are dozens that role off the tongue (does the name Adam Shapiro ring any bells)? so have your fun all you little anti semites, edit the page to your hearts content, in the real world it won't make a bit of difference (and wikipedia as a valid source of information is further discredited). ag
Peters book "is widely discredited" bs - really, I thought her book was totally discredited. The book is a complete embarrasment - rarely even mentioned today. Finkelstein seems to put a lot of faith in Raul Hilberg - bad judgement on his part. Hilberg's major work has major unheralded revisions over time - many are a "denier's" dream come true. His testimony in the Zundel trial will live forever ( he cast more doubt on the Nuremberg trials than any "denier" could hope for.)
212.51.20.123 has reverted to the short version. I basically agree that this section shouldn't be so long, but the short version is strongly biased against Dershowitz, and contains many false statements.
1. The plagiarism charge isn't really "he said, she said." It isn't NPOV to say "Opinions differ on whether the earth is flat," and leave it at that.
Even assuming that Dershowitz has done all the things Finkelstein accuses him of, he's not guilty of plagiarism, as defined in many academic-writing manuals. The current version claims that F.'s book "documents" the plagiarism charge, when the opposite is true: it accuses him of some acts that don't add up to plagiarism (not to mention that F.'s editors forced him to remove the word "plagiarism."
2. Dersh. has said that he regards F.'s charge that he didn't write the book as the more important charge, and it is certainly more serious and specific than "plagiarism." The short version makes no mention of this charge.
3. It's the least important problem, but this is false too: "As evidenced by the reviews in the list that follows this article, the book has received a polarised reception: praise from fellow-critics of Israel (including a number of Jewish writers) and intense hostility from supporters of Israel."
First, there is no list of reviews. Second, the most important point about the reviews is that there have been almost none in the U.S.: I'm not even sure that it's accurate to use the plural "supporters." I'm aware of only one critical review in the U.S. (F. has mostly been ignored, not criticized). Finally, the opposition between "fellow-critics of Israel" and "supporters of Israel" is horribly biased. Many (even most) writers would claim to be both. Others are neither, and wrote their reviews from neutral points of view. Ragout 15:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
"Still others believe that supporters of Hizbullah and Holocaust minimizers like Norman Finkelstein - who uses his Jewish birth to cover for his anti-Semitism - are real Jews. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I now propose a new vocabulary for describing these imposters. From now on, the Neturei Karta should be known as Jews for Ahmadinejad, and Norman Finkelstein and his ilk should be known now as Jews for Hizbullah."- Jews for Ahmadinejad
Hi, everyone. I just want to point-out that my addition to the Finkelstein+Dershowitz section of this page was a single sentence describing Noam Chomsky's defense of Finkelstein on Democracy Now!. The other inflammatory statements concerning Robert Faurisson, Holocaust denial and anti-semitism were added by a third party. Thanks to the user 4.231.214.248 for cleaning-up that section, because I was unaware of the insertion. How was it possible for someone to paste something into my contribution to give it the appearance that I had written something I hadn't? Also, what is "rv"? Thanks, SK.
Deuterium says "Thee plagiarism claim has been taken seriously by the mainstream media and the academic world and has been presented as a serious debate and has _not_ been presented as a cut-and-dried issue where one side is correct and the other is wrong. There are at least two mainstream book reviews cited that agree with Finkelstein's argument.
Finkelstein - He is definitely ignored by the mainstream media, the question could be who controls the mainstream media. He can be silenced by showing his errors, or if that is impossible then never let him be heard.
The 2003 discussion on this page provided a complete guide to what is an argument and what is an opinion. Why repeat it??? But if somebody needs to discuss something, please do it here - my computer time is too limited for a revert war!
This section is growing excessively long. The article is about Norman Finkelstein in general, not just his conflict with Dershowitz. It should state only the major points of the D-F debate -- there is an entirely separate article discussing the Dershowitz-Finkelstein Affair.
Part of the problem is the redundancy of the article. There is no need to say twice that Dershowitz threatened to sue. There is no need to say three times that F. has accused D. of lacking knowledge about his book. Hence, I'm removing these redundencies. Ragout 05:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
1. Mentioning Dershowitz's letter to the governor makes D. look a little foolish, but has no relevance to the plagiarism charge or the ghostwriting charge. It belongs in the D-F Affair article, and I'm removing it from here.
2. Someone has written:
This is incoherent, mostly because the rebuttal (F. didn't remove ghostwriting charge) has swallowed the original claim (F. did remove ghostwriting charge). It is also poorly written. So I'm reverting it.
3. This statement from the article is extremely biased: Finkelstein expanded his findings in a book entitled Beyond Chutzpah, providing evidence that in at least two instances, Dershowitz reproduces errors in Peters' citiation of original sources, and so could not have checked the original sources he cited.
This statement says: F. ... provided evidence ... that D. could not have checked the original sources he cited. F. may claim this, but it is not a fact. There is not reason why D. could not have have reproduced the errors, and also checked the original sources. So I will edit this to make it NPOV.
4. The article says that citing original sources without consulting them violates rules in the CMS and WWS. This is true, but the article should make clear that neither source calls these violations "plagiarism." The WWS rule isn't even in the plagiarism chapter.
5. I've removed the cites to academic studies of citation practices, which Deuterium objects to on the grounds that they discuss scientific fields rather than history. This is true, but irrelevant, since the rules for plagiarism and citations are the same for those fields. WWS doesn't say "plagiarism is bad, except in scientific research" ! However, I'll move them to the D-F affair article in the interests of brevity and comity.
6. I've removed the sentence: When confronted by Finkelstein, Dershowitz admitted that if "somebody borrowed the quote without going to check back on whether Mark Twain had said that, obviously that would be a serious charge." [13]
This sentence is stripped of important context and so is misleading. So I'm deleting it.
In context it is clear that D.'s use of the phrase "the quote" does not refer to just any quotation. "The quote" refers specifically to inaccurate quotations that don't accurately reflect what the source said. No one has accused D. of this -- so he's being a little tricky, defending himself against something no one has alleged. Further, in context, D. is talking about quotes from Peters, which may be relevant to his point. He may be saying that it would be stupid to quote Peters without checking the original sources, since it is well known that some Peters quotes are inaccurate. Ragout 05:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
(copied from SV's talk page)
If I understand you correctly, you believe that citing the definition of plagiarism and attributing to a reputable source amount to "Original Research." In the Norman Finkelstein article I tried to describe the definition, and you deleted it on the grounds that it's OR. I don't see your logic here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ragout ( talk • contribs)
SlimVirgin says this debate over quoting the CMS is moot because he (or she) has fixed the article already, by quoting an alternate source. Obviously, SlimVirgin hasn't been following this page for too long. Already, a few hours later, somebody has raised the issue again, adding to the article:
The Chicago Manual of Style discourages the use of secondary ("quoted in..") citations with the expectation that the author will have consulted the originals. Ragout 10:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Ragout, his edits are clearly not OR. Cadr 15:10, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think SlimVirgin understands the WP:NOR policy, at least not as it was originally written. Now he has practically rewritten the policy to tailor fit it to his particular bias on the Dershowitz/Finkelstein debate. Then he has the Chutzpah to quote the policy back at you as an authority in this instance. The idea that you can't quote anything directly, but only in triangulation is nonsense. It creates bias rather than objectivity. Maybe we need to escalate his rewriting of the WP:NOR policy to the Council of Elders. -- 1010011010 18:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, WP:NOR does not say you can't use a primary source to refute an argument. It says precisely the opposite. OR "introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position." Hence siting a reputable source, whether primary or secondary, means that it is not OR. Citing original sources is actually encouraged. Ragout 03:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Some editors seem unhappy with the following language:
on the grounds that WWS calls borrowing ideas plagiarism.
But both are true. The WWS does not call citing w/o consulting "plagiarism." And it does call borrowing ideas "plagiarism." So, I think the article should explain that the WWS says both these things. So, please stop deleting the statement about quoting sources without consulting not being plagiarsim (according to WWS). Instead add a statement about what is plagiarism. Ragout 13:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Referencing a citation database is not original research. Citation records are only a partial measure of a work's scholarly reception, obviously, but they are verifiable. -- Danny Yee 05:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
ISI Web finds just one citation since 1988 -- and that's by Edward Said. And the earlier citations are mostly in e.g. the Times Literary Supplement and the New York Review of Books, which aren't primary scholarly journals. I think that's sufficient evidence for "not highly regarded among scholars", though I agree with Jayg that it's not evidence for "discredited". -- Danny Yee 05:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I see that MEMRI's severely edited Finkelstein interview is causing some misunderstandings. Readers are directed here for a correction. CJCurrie 03:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
At least Finkelstein is smart enough to note ( know) that you can't have too many survivors if you want to claim a holocaust. How come he seems to be the only one trying to get the numbers to add up who can count?
As a followup, Finkelstein I believe has pointed out that the Revisionists and the Historians seem to be converging to the same numbers. IE it is getting hard to point out the revisionists from the historians - only the politically correct seem to be on shore.
What a horrible page he has. It needs a redo. Especially separating facts and opinions. Why are we this bad & unreadable on wikipedia? I'll start changing, - DePiep 19:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the reference to the ADL's description of Finkelstein as a Holocaust denier. I had entered this material in a previous edit and somehow neglected to source it, my apologies. The NOR rule was also raised so I'd like to clarify. The ADL in this case was specifically responding to The Holocaust Industry and pointing to it as evidence for its claim that Finkelstein is a Holocaust denier. The Finkelstein quote is not a random one selected for juxtaposition with the ADL quote; it is rather the concluding sentence and argumentative summary of the very book the ADL is referring to. -- G-Dett 14:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, the ADL letter (to the president of Georgetown University) describing Finkelstein as a Holocaust denier has been quoted either in part or in its entirety in any number of publications. Is Frontpage Magazine considered reliable in this respect? If so, there's this article [20] as well as this one [21]. Also, Georgetown University published the letter itself online in pdf format here [22].
As for the NOR rule: the ADL's letter refers explicitly to The Holocaust Industry, but not this particular quote. The quote is not, however, in any sense a random one; it is the book's thesis. The book not only accepts but is indeed premised on the fact of the Holocaust; the argument is that both its victims and survivors have been abused, for financial and political reasons, by a reparations and commemoration "industry" that enriches those in charge of it while exploiting the suffering of those it claims to represent. The enormity of the Holocaust, what Finkelstein calls its "staggering proportions," is precisely what makes its exploitation so appalling from Finkelstein's point of view. That argument is repeated in countless formulations throughout the book; my selection was "random" only in the sense that it was taken from the last page, when virtually any other would have done just as well.
The anonymous editor of the the talk entry below writes that "what should be given is both whatever quote or fact the ADL has cited to claim that Finkelstein is a denier (or what there basis is, if it is based on private conversations whose contents are not a matter of record or something similar), as well as that quote that is already there as Finkelstein's response. This article just makes the ADL look completely ridiculous."
First of all, the quote we're discussing is not "Finkelstein's response." The ADL letter is a response to the book whose thesis consists of the quote in question. First comes NF's book, then the ADL's response. I thought I had made this sequence clear in the wording of the disputed edit.
Now, without lapsing into original research, or indeed speculation, I can't say why the ADL has responded to a book that begins with the fact of the Holocaust as its very foundation by describing its author as a "Holocaust denier." But that is what has happened. Here is the "quote or fact the ADL has cited to claim that Finkelstein is a denier," taken directly from the ADL letter: "in his highly publicized book, 'The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering,' Finkelstein argues that the Holocaust 'has become a straight-out extortion racket.'” Whether the ADL looks ridiculous or not depends on your POV, I suppose. What they've done here is simply to substitute the word "Holocaust" for Finkelstein's phrase, "Holocaust Industry."
I'll defer to Jayjig's authority and experience with regard to wikipedia protocol, but I have serious misgivings about this deletion. This section is about Finkelstein's feud with the ADL. The ADL's accusation of Holocaust denial is centrally relevant to that feud, as is the argument of the book that prompted the ADL to level the accusation in the first place. We should figure out how to get the material into the article without violating NOR.-- G-Dett 22:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The links to the ADL letter and the two FrontPageMagazine articles quoting the ADL letter? They seem right to me...
"""I can't say why the ADL has responded to a book that begins with the fact of the Holocaust as its very foundation by describing its author as a "Holocaust denier.""" - He's lucky he wasn't called anti-Semitic, self-hating Jew, etc - favorite ADL tactics ad nauseum. Truthfully, I believe Finkelstein is too smart to believe much of the Holocaust story - and too smart to say so publically. He certainly can't have read Hilberg and been convinced ( he has a PhD doesn't he ). (anonymous edit added by 159.105.80.92)
"a plant"? - you mean a denier? Anyone who delves into the subject with the smallest amount of effort ( that means reads more than one side of an issue ) soon sees where Finkelstein stopped reading ( he didn't want to know what the next page said - or he is dishonest/careful and protecting his career ). Finkelstein's own statements show that what he has read leads him to the "story" conclusion - he is just cagey.
Isn't the ADL classified as a terrorist organization - maybe it is the other DL group. Who cares what a group of loons calls him/you except from long distance.
This article is mostly ok but there is blatant POV in the ADL section as well as the Dershowitz section. In the ADL section, I'm quite certain that the ADL did not point to that particular quote to make their case. Nor does that quote necessarily prove anything, Finkelstein could have contradicted himself at some point. So, what should be given is both whatever quote or fact the ADL has cited to claim that Finkelstein is a denier (or what there basis is, if it is based on private conversations whose contents are not a matter of record or something similar), as well as that quote that is already there as Finkelstein's response. This article just makes the ADL look completely ridiculous. Similarly with Dershowitz. Even if all the facts presented in the section were true (and I somehow think there's more too it than that), there's clear bias in the writing. Further, of all the claims that Finkelstein made the article focuses to choose on one rather unique case where Dershowitz might have screwed up. This is not representative of the fact that Finkelstein probably made thousands of claims against Dershowitz and at least some of his claims are doubtless nonsense. In other words, this article only mentions Finkelstein's best and Dershowitz's worst performance. Further, the comments added on the quote presented near the end of the section are unnecessary, and are quite clearly POV.
Response: "This article just makes the ADL look completely ridiculous" for calling Finkelstein a denier, the editor above complains. I'm not sure I follow the implied logic here regarding POV. There are numerous citable instances of Finkelstein affirming the fact of the Holocaust; there are no citable instances of him denying it. He has never once shown any interest in doing primary historical research into the details of the Holocaust, and has affirmed again and again that he simply accepts the consensus findings of mainstream scholars regarding what he calls the "staggering dimensions of Hitler's Final Solution." He is the son of Holocaust survivors, and in the forthcoming Haunted House, portions of which have been published, he writes about his parents' experiences in the Warsaw Ghetto and in the concentration camps. And he periodically issues statements like the following: "No rational person disputes that the Nazis systematically exterminated 5-6 million Jews."
The ADL nevertheless describes him as a "Holocaust denier." Your understanding of the NPOV rule is that we should present the accusation in such a way that it appears plausible? Because otherwise the ADL might look ridiculous? -- G-Dett 18:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, I've reverted your latest edit, in which you deleted a sentence about Finkelstein dismissing the charge of "Holocaust denial" as libelous. Your reasoning that the reference should be moved to a page about a minor-league journalist is unconvincing. The ADL established the precedent for describing Finkelstein as a Holocaust denier. (Most of those who followed suit have been careful to quote the ADL rather than directly repeating the libel.) Finkelstein's general rejection of the charge absolutely belongs in this section.
In another context Jayjg has written, "If Michael Moore were to say George W. Bush is a bastard, NPOV does not demand we say 'His father was allegedly George Bush Sr., though Michael Moore claims he is a bastard.'" That was well said, Jayjg, and the same principle applies here. It is noteworthy when someone prominent says something demonstrably false about someone, but NPOV does not require that we treat an unsupported and unsupportable charge as somehow plausible.
I've also removed the following from Jayjg's edit: "Regarding his book The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering, the ADL states "Finkelstein argues that the Holocaust ‘has become a straight-out extortion racket.’ Finkelstein is well known for his anti-Israel rhetoric and his claims that Jews have exploited the Holocaust to make money. He has said that he ‘truly honored’ Hezbullah fighters from Lebanon for ‘having inflicted an exceptional and deserving defeat on their foreign occupiers,’ and that, ‘I can’t imagine why Israel’s apologists would be offended by a comparison to the Gestapo.’"
If you want to summarize the ADL's position on Finkelstein beyond what's given in the page as it is now, by all means do so. But there is no sound basis, in an article on Finkelstein, to extensively quote the ADL as it cobbles together quote-fragments from Finkelstein - unless the goal is simply to inject POV.
Furthermore, Jayjg's edit misleadingly makes it appear that all of the quote fragments cobbled together by the ADL somehow pertain to Finkelstein's book, The Holocaust Industry. In fact only one of them does. -- G-Dett 20:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The ADL section is bizarre. There are two whole paragraphs in which the ADL is quoted at length summarizing Finkelstein's arguments. Not making their own argument about him, just sort of speaking for him.
Just wondering Jay, how much of this edit do you suppose constitutes original research? CJCurrie 03:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Jayig, please do not get emotional. First of all, there is no incivility that I can see in your opponent's entries. When one can't rebut a valid criticism of his own position, an unsubstantiated attempt to turn the table by accusing an opponent of WP:PA and violation of WP:Civil is the wrong approach. I will not tell you "reread the WP:PA" because I am sure you know what's there. Just don't put the argument on its head by bringing up the policies that do not apply.
Now, to the specific of the argument. That "ADL does not support their accusations in Holocaust Denial by citing anything by F." is the statement of fact and not the interpretation. If you claim that this is a false statement of fact, the right way to proceed is to bring up any ADL's release where it accuses F in HD and adds examples of F's writings or speeches that he denies the Holocaust. When you come up with them, we will integrate them into the article. Until then, the statement of lack of substantiation of ADL accusation stands since ADL does not substantiate them in the Georgetown letter.
Finally, the article deflects significantly from an objective presentation tone by going at length to cite the ADL directly in the text. The lengthy quotations should be either eliminated or moved to refs. ADL is not an academic but a political organization. We should we wary of using the political quotes in encyclopedia article. Someone somewhere in a political speech said "Mission accomplished". Such statement cannot be used in Wikipedia article as a proof of a success of a certain mission. -- Irpen 23:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, telling that your responses and editing seems emotional is not an ad hominem in any way. My perception may be wrong and you are perfectly calm. If so, just say so. Now, you reverted me with no explanation whatsoever although I explained my edit above. Also, I tweaked the lead because the first phrase should say the most basic thing. Most basic is that he is a Political scientist and not that he is an assistant professor in DePaul. Please don't revert without explanation and don't cite NPA and Civil where this is unwarranted. TIA, -- Irpen 18:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, now user:Isarig made this revert in defiance on the ongoing talk discussion. Since he refused to provide the explanation at the article's talk, that I requested, I am posting here the message he left at my talk:
Since we have now two users who edit the article totally ignoring what their opponent are trying to say at talk, I see no other way as to POV label the appropriate sections until the dispute is resolved to, if not a consensus, but some form of a compromise between good-faith users.
As such, I will mark
One more time, I invite Jay to explain himself at talk. I am neither supporter or a hater of NF. All I want is the article to be moved forward from its current unacceptable state. -- Irpen 23:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Jay, I insist that there is no ad hominem in my entries. Also, there is plenty of explanations there. But I accept your offer to start this anew. Let's move forward in the next section. I will repeat my arguments there, if you wish. -- Irpen 23:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The controversy about OR here hinges on whether the disputed edit analyzes, rebuts, or refutes the ADL claim. I'll briefly state my position on this, with apologies to those who didn't pass over my previous posts.
Items 1 and 2 have been more or less pasted in from above – with all references to other editors removed, as per the guidelines for this new discussion. Item 3 is a proposed solution to the disputed edit.
1.It isn't a "novel claim" to write that the ADL's accusation was levelled "without specifically citing statements of doubt or denial." It's a straightforward presentation of the contents of a reliable source: a letter from the ADL to the president of Georgetown University, published online by Georgetown. That letter twice describes Finkelstein in general terms as a "known Holocaust denier." The letter does not point to instances of denial. It presents its description as a given, not as a case to be argued.
"How do you know [the ADL] haven't given evidence somewhere else?" it has been asked. The question is irrelevant. The edit in question doesn't say they haven't. It simply describes the nature of the accusation contained in the Georgetown letter. Elementary acts of reading comprehension do not constitute original research. The Georgetown letter is the reliable source. We don't need a second reliable source to say that the first reliable source says what it says. WP:V was not designed to create an infinite regress.
2.The edit does not attempt to refute or rebut the accusation in the ADL letter. That the accusation in question was made in general rather than specific terms, by appeal to consensus knowledge (Finkelstein is a “known Holocaust denier”) rather than cited examples, does not in itself discredit it. Any more than saying, “The president of the MLA referred to Walt Whitman as ‘the greatest poet in American history,’ without elaborating,” would discredit that worthy judgment.
3. My proposed solution would make clear that no analysis, rebuttal, or refutation is implied: "In a letter to the president of Georgetown University in 2002, the ADL expressed dismay about a Finkelstein event hosted by the university, and alleged in passing that Finkelstein was a 'known Holocaust denier.'"
I hope this provides a basis on which to move forward. -- G-Dett 03:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
"If all something requires is 'elementary acts of reading comprehension', then we certainly don't need to point it out to the reader," an editor ripostes. This is a red herring pickled in sophistry. Of course we don't point out to our readers what is obvious in the article itself. But we do make an effort to describe and summarize the secondary materials we link to with maximum accuracy and specificity, don't we? Otherwise Wikipedia would just be a metastasizing collage of unassimilated direct quotes and fragments thereof. Even the sentence here beginning, "Foxman also criticizes Beyond Chutzpah on similar grounds" would run afoul of the rather extreme version of original research being invoked on this page. 'After all,' an editor might object, 'what reliable source describes those grounds as similar? Oh, it's just obvious? Well then, if the grounds are so obviously similar, then we certainly don't need to point it out,' and so on, ad absurdum. -- G-Dett 05:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, let me remind you that we are repeating this discussion in the second thread (basically rewriting it) only because you made a groundless accusation that those expressing the disagreement with you above were guilty of WP:PA, WP:Civil and WP:whatever. In fact, there was none of any of that. The discussions were mutually respectful. Then you claimed that you did not read the responses. I, actually, think your even saying so is grossly disrespectful. Reasonable editors try to work out their disagreements here in good faith and in the middle of this you, basically, say: "I don't read your arguments. So, I don't care". Now, THAT 's disrespect. So, may I please ask you to stay on topic, that it the article's content, and if you have anything to refute the points presented to you, do just that. If you, OTOH, just can't come up with any rebuttal, please just say so or accept the change rather than find a non-existing PA, ad hominem and claim there is nothing to talk about.
Now, to the points. As I said earlier, "ADL does not support their accusations in Holocaust Denial by citing anything by F.", at least not in Georgetown letter. This is a statement of fact and not the interpretation thereof. If you find the statement itself disputable, fine. Show how is that a false statement but there is no original research in stating that black color is darker than the white color, even when a particular source just mentions the colors of two objects and does not say which one is darker. Demanding to prove lack of substantiations is simply illogical. If you claim the statement is false, come up with the quote on where ADL in that letter cites any specifics and we will close the matter. Until then, the statement of lack of substantiation of ADL accusation stands since ADL does not substantiate them in the Georgetown letter. Besides, the article deflects significantly from an objective presentation tone by going at length to cite the ADL directly in the text. The lengthy quotations should be either eliminated or moved to refs. ADL is not an academic but a political organization. We should we wary of using political quotes in encyclopedia article. We should simply say: "ADL claimed that..." <ref> and have a quote in the refs section not a lengthy quote by such a political and non-academic organization as ADL inside the article's body.
My second significant problem with the article is the "criticism" section. It is basically a collection of cherry-picked lengthy quotes by his detractors not balanced by F's responses, but merely links that F. said something too. I don't think that the way to address it is to add equally lengthy quotes by F. The right way is to rewrite the whole thing as such: "Benny Morris wrote on F's writing that...<ref> to which F responded that...<ref>". The article in its current form merely gives an undue weight to F's criticism by supplying it with lengthy quotes, thus loosing any virtue of NPOV.
I hope I made my points clear and we will have a discussion to achieve some NPOV in this article. I would much prefer a reasonable solution coming out of this discussion quickly to keeping "POV-section" tags for an extended time, which may happen if the supporters of the current version simply refuse to talk and write here: "You can say whatever you want, we won't listen". Let's listen to each other and try to make one more article better. Cheers, -- Irpen 23:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with G-Dett's proposal with one correction. "...made passing but pointed reference to Finkelstein as a ‘known Holocaust denier' without citing any of his statements to substantiate such allegations". I absolutely disagree that calling a black color "dark" is "editorializing" (see my post above). ADL is a serious organization and we may expect the reader to be familiar with it (while not necessarily so). As such, the reader may expect that accusations from organization with such clout are somehow substantiated. The truth is that in this case they are not and the reader needs to know about this abnormalcy. If, OTOH, anyone can show the substantiation in ADL's letter, this is sufficient grounds to dismiss my correction. Also, if ADL substantiated those allegations elsewhere, it is fine to say so right after this phrase in the form of smth like: "In its earlier press-release of ... ADL cited the ... statement of F. as an example of his Denial of Holocaust".
What should be supported by refs in the article is the "presence" of substantiations, not lack of them. Absence of any example of presence means lack. Sorry, I am not an en-N user. Regards, -- Irpen 03:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
We don't need to say the car is dark when we know it is black, true enough. But there is no harm to say so when it is relevant. Similar, if we have a ref that someone is a New Yorker we are allowed to bring up that he was non-Bostonian if the context warrants that, while the ref we are using simply states that he was a New Yorker. Doing so is not adding or inventing content. Same here, lack of specifics in ADL letter is a fact. We just say so. It is up to you to show otherwise if you dispute their absense in ADL letter. It's presence, rather than absence is what has to be proven. As G-Dett said above, "elementary acts of reading comprehension do not constitute original research". That's an excellent way to say it. -- Irpen 04:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Isarig, when discussing POV, editorializing, etc., do try to distinguish between their proper use on the talk page, and alleged infractions in the article itself.
Isarig and Jayjg, could you say once and for all, what cited Finkelstein sentence in the Georgetown letter could be understood, by a person with normal reading comprehension skills, as indicative of Holocaust denial? -- G-Dett 23:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOR has no bearing on the talk page. I note, with some regret, the persistent confusion about protocol.
If elementary reading comprehension permits no ambiguity about the disputed edit, then there is no question of original research, and hence no valid objection, no basis for the revert war, and no basis even for this protracted debate. So, once again: what cited Finkelstein sentence in the Georgetown letter could be understood, by a person with normal reading comprehension skills, as indicative of Holocaust denial?-- G-Dett 23:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
As to your question: "referred to Finkelstein as" is better than "claimed that Finkelstein was," because the latter falsely suggests that an argument has been made. Beyond that, the words are OK. I propose to add, not delete, remember?
As to my question: the point of the exercise would be to determine, once and for all, whether we actually have a substantive dispute about the letter, or whether this has all been wikilawyering. Don't dodge.-- G-Dett 00:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Again: what cited Finkelstein sentence in the Georgetown letter could be understood, by a person with normal reading comprehension skills, as indicative of Holocaust denial?-- G-Dett 00:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Now, Jayjg, THAT above is of course civil right? Condescending tone plus making fun of your opponent's being non-native speaker who used a non-optimal and, perhaps, a non-existing word. I checked the dictionary and found out that such word is indeed not there. Should have said "abnormality". Please accept my apology for that.
Am I still allowed argue my disagreement with you? Because you earlier labeled a phrase "Please don't get emotional" an ad hominem (!) right above and now with the tone I am getting from you, I feel more and more certain that I am somehow unwelcome at this article. In case I am still allowed to post here, please note that I am not arguing to have the word "abnormalcy" mentioned in the mainspace. Neither I argue for "abnormality" as I also restrict it to a talk page. As for the mainspace, I simply want an article to mention a hard fact, that is "lack of substantiation in ADL letter". I have a reliable source for that. A letter itself. The letter 1) Makes an allegation; 2) does not substantiate it. These are sourced facts. If you disagree, please argue facts. -- Irpen
By such logic, saying that 9827364 is greater than 3562 is also original research. I doubt you can find such exact statement. If there is no substantiation in the letter, its absence is a fact. Since the reader will be supplied with a link to a letter, s/he will certainly be able to check the statement if s/he wishes. However, lack of substantiation in such a horrific accusation as being a Holocaust denialist is a big deal when the allegation is voiced by such an organization as ADL rather than in the blog hosted by Irpen. Important facts belong to the article. Lack of substantiation is a fact. Please read the letter. -- Irpen 02:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Isarig and Jayjg, I have now asked the following three times:
If neither of you has an answer to that, there is no question of original research and no basis for your revert war. Period. Each time I ask this, one of you replies by asking me a question, which I faithfully answer. I think I am now entitled to a simple answer from one or both of you on this, as is every editor who has followed this wearying discussion to this point. -- G-Dett 02:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Very well, Isarig, let's have it: demonstrate that Statement X exists by telling us what it is.
And Jayjg?-- G-Dett 03:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The nerve.
Isarig: hit [ctrl]-F and type “Jayjg rightly describes” and read from there through to the end of that post. That is one of the many candid, careful, detailed and direct iterations of my answer to your first question. Then hit [ctrl]-F and type “The point of the exercise would be" and that will take you to one of several straightforward iterations of my answer to your second question.
When you’re done, then please, as a basic demonstration that you’re not simply bluffing on an empty hand, answer my question:
I am leaving town (and Wikipedia) for a week. All that's needed for the edit to be satisfactory in my mind is that it should not inaccurately suggest that the ADL argued that Finkelstein was a "Holocaust denier."
Here are the two possible edits I agree with:
1."In a letter to the president of Georgetown University in 2002, the ADL expressed dismay about a Finkelstein event hosted by the university, and alleged in passing that Finkelstein was a 'known Holocaust denier.'"
2."In a 2002 letter to the president of Georgetown University expressing dismay about a Finkelstein event hosted by the university, the ADL referred to Finkelstein as a 'known Holocaust denier,'" without specifically citing statements of doubt or denial.
Or any of myriad variations thereof.
Isarig and Jayjg have objected to the phrases "in passing" and "without specifically citing statements of doubt and denial,", citing WP:POV and WP:NOR. Other editors see these as part of a straightforward presentation of the contents of a reliable source. Meanwhile, Isarig and Jayjg have coyly refused to say what Finkelstein statement(s) cited in the Georgetown letter could be interpreted as indicative of Holocaust denial. This would seem to obviate their argument that the description is debatable. It also strongly suggests they have invoked WP:POV and WP:NOR in bad faith.
I hope that others step in here and we can resolve the dispute in a sensible way, so as to avoid mediation and, at all costs, arbitration. -- G-Dett 17:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Jay.
1. Reading me the definition of OR, yet again, this time in italics, serves only the rhetorical purpose of making it seem that your argument and wikipedia policy are one and the same – my point, of course, is that they are not;
2. "As has been explained, this is an analysis of the content of the letter," etc. This is simply more argument by assertion, and as such has no value;
3. The comparison of the ADL's letter about Finkelstein with a hypothetical letter about David Irving is weirdly misguided, and I think it points quite precisely to what's misguided about your rationale for deleting the phrase in the first place. Irving, unlike Finkelstein, has denied the Holocaust and is therefore generally regarded as a Holocaust denier. There are no doubt thousands, probably tens of thousands of references to him as such in countless reliable sources, popular and scholarly. So yes, it would indeed be POV-pushing (as well as just plain weird) for Wikipedia to zero in on one such reference and indicate whether it levels its allegation in general or specific terms.
The situation with Finkelstein is totally different. Only a tiny minority of people believe he's a Holocaust denier; perhaps about as many as believe the earth is flat. There are only a handful of references to him as such in reliable sources, and even then only if we count as reliable sources publications like FrontPageMagazine. Virtually all of these references, moreover, cite the ADL as authority and merely repeat their allegation. To the best of my knowledge, no scholar in a peer-reviewed book or article has ever described Finkelstein as a Holocaust denier, or described his work as an example of Holocaust denial or Holocaust revisionism. It would be fair, indeed, to ask whether the ADL allegation even belongs in the article ( WP:NOR says that "The inclusion of a view that is held only by a tiny minority may constitute original research because there may be a lack of sufficiently credible, third-party, published sources to back it up"). Given the prominence and pedigree of the ADL, however, I think the answer would have to be yes, their accusation is noteworthy. But given its anomalousness (echoed as it is only by a few fringe figures in the popular press, and no scholars anywhere) it seems important to be clear about the nature of the accusation: What is cited as evidence? Is it advanced as an argument or referred to as consensus knowledge? Is it presented in general or specific terms? Etc.
In any case, it should be clear that the comparison you've set up is wholly inappropriate. An appropriate comparison would be if Abraham Foxman were invited to speak at a university, and NOW wrote to the university president in protest, describing Foxman as a "serial fondler and well-known date rapist." If that happened, I would think it would be OK for the Wikipedia article on Foxman to say, "In a letter to the president of X university, NOW described Foxman as a 'serial fondler and well-known date rapist,' without specifically citing alleged incidents or legal charges." Assuming that were the case, would you, Jay, object tenaciously to the latter clause as original research?-- G-Dett 21:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Jay, the Finkelstein/Irving comparison isn't inappropriate on account of what I find plausible or outrageous; it's inappropriate because Irving has been described as a Holocaust denier by countless credible writers in thousands of citable sources, popular as well as scholarly, whereas Finkelstein has only been called a Holocaust denier by the ADL and a few fringe writers writing in semi-reputable fora. That's why the comparison doesn't make any sense. It is the anomolousness (not the outrageousness) of the accusation in Finkelstein's case that makes it significant, worthy of special note in Wikipedia.
I appreciate your latest input as well as SlimVirgin's, but both of your responses continue to beg the question. The very thing we're disputing is whether saying the ADL's accusation was made in general rather than specific terms constitutes a "rebuttal" of their position, or a novel theory about it, or whatever. I and other editors don't think it does, and I've outlined at length why not. For your part, you don't demonstrate that it does; you just continue to take it is as a given.
Of course I think the ADL accusation is outrageous; Holocaust denial is serious, and phony accusations about it shouldn't be used as a weapon. But that is neither here nor there. Please credit me with an intelligent and informed respect for what Wikipedia is and is not. I don't think the Wikipedia article should reflect my outrage, or "rebut" the ADL claim, or anything of the sort. And I am certainly not asking for some sort of 'exception' to the NOR rule. Wikipedia regularly presents relevant, indisputable information about cited sources, and this is no exception.
As far as why Finkelstein hasn't taken out a libel suit, I think he follows his mentor Chomsky in being opposed to them in principle. He's one of these so-called "free speech absolutists," if I'm not mistaken.-- G-Dett 05:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with John K. Summary and paraphrase are routine on Wikipedia. It seems pretty clear that the agenda at work here is not in the deleted phrase itself but rather in the editor who keeps deleting it. -- Hiramhamilton 20:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
From non-reconsability of the positions stated above, the compromise or an agreement here seems an impossibility. I hope this can be resolved at some point when more editors attend the article. Until then, the disputed sections will remain tagged as such. The options as I see are:
However, until more people show up, I see no point in continuing this discussion. -- Irpen 18:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Speaking of sources. http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:ytScaEO-KNQJ:israel.georgetown.edu/ADL-letter.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a is not opening for the obvious reasons. Frontpage is usually not considered WP:RS. Thus, we do not have any RS information about the content of the letter anyway. I guess if ADL pulled down the letter from the web there is something wrong with it. I propose to use WP:BLP and pull down the paragraph about the letter (and the tag) all together or at least put according to frontpage before it. abakharev 04:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The ADL neither published the letter online nor took it down. It was put up by Georgetown University, who has moved it to here: studentorgs.georgetown.edu/israel/ADL-letter.pdf. I'll fix the link accordingly.-- G-Dett 14:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe Finkelstein is a full tenured professor now, not an assistant professor. On his website, he posted a response by Alan Dershowitz to an article he wrote, and Dershowitz says that Finkelstein "is now up for tenure" at DePaul.
Yeah, I agree; I also checked his C.V. and it doesn't appear to have changed, so I guess if he is up for tenure, he's still undergoing that process. 152.23.84.168 17:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Why is there a section called "Finkelstein on David Irving and on numbers of Holocaust victims"? What do these two things have to do with one another? The information therein is OK, but packaging them together in this way, and with this kind of subtitle, is incredibly tendentious. Finkelstein passingly affirms consensus opinion about two different things, in two different contexts: 1) that David Irving is a "notorious" and "obtuse" Holocaust denier who was once a serious archival scholar; and 2) that he, Finkelstein, regards as definitive the three-volume historical account of the Nazi Holocaust by Raul Hilberg (described in his own Wikipedia article as "one of the best-known and most distinguished of genocide historians").
Bundling these two things together under this subtitle is multiply misleading: it suggests that his work is somehow related to Irving's, which it isn't; and it suggests that he has done his own research on the number of Holocaust victims, which he hasn't (he just cites a leading authority's account as definitive).
Let's get rid of the section, and assimilate the material elsewhere in the article. Maybe a new section called "Finkelstein and Allegations of Holocaust Denial." That's the implied subject of this section, as well as an explicit subject of the next.-- G-Dett 18:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
There is no way that Finkelstein can consider Hilberg definitive. Hilberg couldn't even - didn't try to - defend his own work in a courtroom cross examination. Finkelstein can't be that far out of the loop, I hope.
I'm glad you finally got the point aboout OR, [[User:G-Dett|G-Dett]. I think it's fair to say we can move on now, and pretend your rationalizations for your own OR regarding the ADL letter to Georgetown never happened. Isarig 01:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
An irony-free version, Isarig, if you're still lost in thought.
How does 'planting' an obvious case of one kind of OR (synthesizing, using source B to refute source A) settle a dispute about a different kind of OR (allegedly tendentious summary of single source A)? And how, for that matter, does planting irrelevant fake edits teach me to not "play little games"? How does following it up with a sort of triumphalist swagger, equal parts schoolmaster and bully ("I hope you have learned your lesson"), mingled with creepy endearments ("my dear"), set an example for how I can become "a better Wikipedian"?
To settle the earlier dispute in your favor, what you'd need to do is show that the summary is debatable (not "false," as you continue wilfully to misconstrue it). You never showed that; in fact you refused to try to show it, and it became quite clear that you were bluffing on an empty hand. Given the absurdity of your position (maintaining that a summary is debatable but refusing to say why), it's understandable that you should now wish to switch sides. I would even take heart in this, were it not so clear to me that you have not even understood the terms of the argument you lost.
To conclude, I want to pick up on something John K pointed out. The interpretation of OR variously advanced here by you, Jayjg, and SlimVirgin has been neither coherent nor compelling. What is coherent among the three of you is your ideological take on Israel/Palestine. By contrast, between myself, John K., Irpen, et al, there is no such ideological unity. We have, however, put forth a very detailed, cogent, and as of yet unanswered rebuttal to the spurious charge of original research. These distinctions are in themselves rather telling, in ways that anyone who's read this far into this debate will easily recognize.
You have gained your goal, not through serious negotiation or by winning an argument, but by organizing your ideological muscle as administrators. Big deal. Wikipedia will survive.-- G-Dett 15:19, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
"OR is OR" is about as nice an example as one could hope for of tautology (a common variant of which is known as begging the question). It has indeed been your key contribution here, as I've been pointing out for some time.
The dullness of the fool is the whetstone of the wit, says someone in As You Like It (Celia?). It's been fun, but there is such a thing as overhoning.-- G-Dett 17:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Welcome back, Rosencrantz.
Focus now: there is no Wikipedia rule about what editors want. There is no rule about intentions. If there were, someone would take a look at your 20,000 annual edits (by your count [25]), and you might well find yourself banned from making further contributions. As CJCurrie has pointed out [26], your prolific editing is not notable for its adherence to a single standard of Original Research. It is, however, ideologically consistent: taken together your tens of thousands of edits form the picture of a single-minded and truly epic undertaking, an awesome and impressively sustained POV-pushing effort. But NPOV applies to edits, not editors. Some of your edits have a coherent and compelling rationale; others, like the one we’ve discussed at length here, manifestly do not. That is all.
All are agreed that summarizing or paraphrasing a reliable source is standard practice in Wikipedia. All (I presume) would agree that summarizing is very different from, not “nearly identical” to, synthesis (defined as "A and B, therefore C"). Gildenstern’s irrelevant prank edit – after which he still wants me to assume his good faith [27] – is an example of the latter.
The issue with regards to the Georgetown letter was whether it was a fair summary to say that it leveled its accusation of Holocaust denial “in general terms,” or “without specifically citing statements of doubt or denial,” or “in passing,” etc. You and Gildenstern declared that none of these was a fair summary, while coyly refusing to say why. When pressed, you eventually mumbled something about how maybe the ADL has an idiosyncratic definition of Holocaust denial (and presumably therefore of the Holocaust itself) [28]. Given the transparent ridiculousness of your answer, I can well understand your chagrined reluctance to offer it in the first place.
Your partner has had the good sense to holler ‘nuff (“thrice” now). I suggest you follow his lead.-- G-Dett 01:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Come on, Jay. I've made you Shakespearean!-- G-Dett 02:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
At first I was enjoying this energetic discussion, but I am beginning to find the whole thing pointless and distasteful. G-Dett, comparing your opponents to waste matter and contemptible literary figures may give you a momentary thrill, but it does little to advance the discussion. We may not all be as erudite as you, but throwing out an insult and then compounding it by facetiously declaring it to be a compliment, is no way to treat people. I hardly need to point out that you have the intelligence and perspicacity to make a positive contribution to this community, but your disdain for those you have outsmarted is downright toxic. As for you, Isarig and Jayjg, employing chop-logic and misdirection in order to hold onto a line of argument that has been thoroughly discredited by an interlocutor reflects as badly on you as it does on our ability, as a community, to put aside ideological prejudices and adhere to the principles of wikipedia. Sorry for the sanctimony, but I think you should all be ashamed of yourselves. -- Hiramhamilton 04:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The last thing I wanted to do was invite G-Dett for another round of mischief-making at your expense. I think I'm as ready as you all are for her to put a cork in it. So please, help me by not setting her up.
Yes, you have many edits, Jayjg. As editors more sober than G-Dett have pointed out, they don't add up to a picture of impartiality. WP:NOR is a relatively simple rule. -- Hiramhamilton 02:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
If WP:NOR doesn't do justice to the subtlety of the rule it describes, then perhaps that page needs to be amended. Your application of the rule as it is currently defined is unconvincing. Setting aside your condescension, I hope we can move on to more productive matters. -- Hiramhamilton 20:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Why do the "Criticism of Finkelstein's scholarship" and "Finkelstein, the Anti-Defamation League, and the Allegation of Holocaust Denial" have NPOV tags on them? Criticism, by its very nature, are POV. I propose we remove both tags. -- GHcool 01:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
In the Post-Zionism article someone has listed Norman Finkelstein as a post-Zionist. There was no source listed. There is now a category for post zionists here Category:Post-Zionists. If someone finds a source for this, can you please add the category and describe him as such in the body of the article? Thanks. -- Deodar 14:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Finkelstein has suffered an extremely unpleasant slur on his mother, all the details and refutations of which are (rather unusually) available for all to see on the web.
Can anyone see any objection to a section like this:
"While Finkelstein likes to defend his own anti-Semitic ravings by claiming his parents are themselves Holocaust survivors, Dershowitz recently revealed that Finkelstein's mother was in fact a collaborator with German Nazis during the war."
"You’ve probably never heard of the author, unless you travel in neo-Nazi, radical Islamic or hard left circles. His name is Norman Finkelstein. Yes he is a Jew. His parents were even Holocaust survivors, though he suspects his mother of having been a kapo ("really, how else would she have survived?" he asks rhetorically)".
"The Jewish ghetto police always had the option, she said, of "throwing off their uniforms and joining the rest of us" – a point that Yitzak Zuckerman, a leader of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, made in his memoir. (It was always gratifying to find my mother's seemingly erratic or harsh judgments seconded in the reliable testimonial literature.) Still shaking her head in disbelief, she would often recall how, after Jews in the ghetto used the most primitive implements or even bare hands to dig bunkers deep in the earth and conceal themselves, the Jewish police would reveal these hideouts to the Germans, sending their flesh-and-blood to the crematoria in order to save their own skins. One of the first acts of the ghetto resistance was to kill an officer in the Jewish police. On a sign posted next to his corpse – my mother would recall with vengeful glee – read the epitaph: "Those who live like a dog die like a dog." Still, if she didn't cross fundamental moral boundaries, I glimpsed from her manner of pushing and shoving in order to get to the head of a queue, which mortified me, how my mother must have fought Hobbes's war of all against all many a time in the camps. Really, how else would she have survived?"
The only thing I object to is FrontPageMag's misleading statement that Dershowitz was the one that "revealed" this and presents the statement as fact. Instead of FrontPageMag, the document where Dershowitz first discussed this should be The Case For Peace (I own the book and can find the page number if necessary). -- GHcool 22:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
So we have a front page article alleging that Alan Dershowitz "revealed" that Finkelstein's mother was a collaborator. This is based on an Alan Dershowitz article in which he claims that Finkelstein suspects his mothers was a collaborator. This is based on a Finkelstein article where Dershowitz has taken a quote completely out of context, and Finkelstein never said anything of the kind. There is no basis for this claim, so far as I can tell. john k 22:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I think you have misread Finkelstein. He says, more or less "even if my mother did didn't cross fundamental moral boundaries, she must still have gotten really hard in the camps, or she wouldn't have been able to survive." He specifically notes her utter contempt for the kapos. What he is saying is that his mother didn't cross fundamental moral boundaries, but that she may have threaded the line, or else she wouldn't have been able to survive. But he specifically says she didn't cross those boundaries. john k 01:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
On the whole, this whole sorry incident is not an important thing about Finkelstein himself. It might be important for the article on the Finkelstein-Dershowitz affair that I believe exists, but given that it's basically just an entirely false insinuation more or less made up by Dershowitz, I don't see that it belongs here. john k 01:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe anyone would try to put such a smear of Finkelstein's mother in his article. Shall we also note that Finkelstein's ancestors are accused of killing Jesus Christ? Alan Dershowitz must be an extremely vile individual. -- DLH
PalestineRemembered, I quite agree with you that Dershowitz is playing a false game here. Finkelstein's portrait of his mother is all the more moving for its subtlety, and Dershowitz's attempt to exploit that subtlety for the tiniest ad hominem payoff amounts to a desecration, as well as a tawdry lie, and demonstrates quite vividly how phony his supposed reverence for Holocaust survivors is. But I agree with John K, GHCool and others that the whole sorry episode doesn't really belong here. I would also add that it doesn't do Finkelstein (whom I regard as a serious and courageous if masochistically tactless scholar) any favors to turn his whole Wikipedia article into a repository of Dershowitz's greatest hitjobs. I believe there is a page devoted just to the Finkelstein-Dershowitz affair; that might be a better home for the details of this particular libel.-- G-Dett 23:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there any dispute of his parents' status as holocaust survivors, or is this just an attempt to inject some POV doubt? Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 23:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I (and others) dispute that his parents were Holocaust survivors, based on what Finkelstein says about them. And since a great deal of his credibility is based on this claim, I think it is legitimate to label it for what it is -- "a claim".
Here are a few of the reasons I think it appropriate to characterize it as a claim:
1. Finkelstein talks about reparations paid to Holocaust survivors and seems not to know that all survivors, including HIS own parents and their children (including himself) were AUTOMATICALLY entitled to these payments under German law.
2. Finkelstein's mother is quoted as saying (by Finkelstein) that (and this is an approximate quote): "If there are so many survivors, whom did Hitler kill?". This is an extraordinary statement from someone who is really a survivor.
Thanks,
Robert E. Rubin Roberterubin 19:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)roberterubin
Anyway the entire article needs a thorough restructuring; the majority of it is pure quotes. This is an encyclopedia, not wikiquote. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 21:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I have not seen any reliable source question Finkelstein's assertion that his parents were Holocaust survivors. Even Alan Dershowitz, who can hardly be described as an ally of Finkelstein, did not make this claim in the attack-piece he wrote about NF's mother a few months ago. Adding the word "claims" to this article is entirely inappropriate, and only serves to undermine his family history without due cause.
Concerning the two arguments you've provided, (i) I might be mis-remembering this, but I believe Finkelstein's parents received a payment from the German government many years ago, (ii) the approximate quote you've provided was a rhetorical question, not a serious argument. NF has argued that certain organizations inflated the number of still-living Holocaust *survivors* during the reparations debates of the 1990s (I hasten to add that he has never questioned the reality of the Holocaust itself). Perhaps his mother has making the same point. One way or the other, this does nothing to disprove his family history. Please do not return the word "claims" to this article.
I am adding no analysis. I am simply reflecting the fact that Finkelstein is the only source of information concerning whether or not his parents were Holocaust survivors. This fact, if it is a fact, is important because Finkelstein repeatedly cites it to lend credibility to his positions. I think it is legitimate to point out that the account he provides comes from him alone.
If I were to write a book claiming that the Apollo missions to the moon were a hoax and I also provided as part of my biography that my father worked at NASA, I think it would be legitimate to explore the source of that claim of a personal connection to NASA. I am not taking a position here on Finkelstein's arguments per se, only on the factual information in the article and the source thereof.
I will remove the word "claim". And substitute more neutral language. And I am certainly open to suggestions on what that language should be. But I don't agree that it is inappropriate to reflect the fact that a key point that Finkelstein relies on to bolster his own credibility has not been verified independently.
Thanks,
Roberterubin 23:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)robererubin
I am not drawing an analogy between Apollo and the Holocaust, I am drawing an analogy between someone making a controversial claim while claiming special credentials -- in a hypothetical case involving Apollo -- and doing the same thing with respect to the Holocaust. The analogy is between one claiming a special connection via family who worked at NASA versus a special connection through parents who were Holocaust survivors.
Finkelstein has repeatedly emphasized his connection to the Holocaust via his parents while making very controversial and strong statements about core aspects of the Holocaust and the role of the Jewish community with respect to it. It seems to me perfectly legitimate to reflect the fact in the article that this special connection exists only through his own account. That is a fact, plain and simple. I suggest language like "According to Finkelstein's account of his family and background, his parents were..." That implies nothing but the fact that this information comes from Finkelstein himself. Why don't we compromise on that? It is much weaker than "claims" or "according to" and implies no doubt or deception.
I can find nothing in Wikipedia's guidelines, as I read them, against this proposed edit.
Roberterubin 06:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)robererubin
I've also restored the praise and criticism sections. Until someone paraphrases the section, this should be left in place. CJCurrie 00:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Robert, I hope this [37] will resolve your doubts. Generally speaking, however (setting aside the fact that there's a New York Times article to settle the matter in this case), I think your suggestion – that Wikipedia should get in the business of independently verifying who is a genuine Holocaust survivor and who might be a fraud, and then inserting wording suggestive of our suspicions of survivor claims when our cursory, haphazard original research techniques turn up no indepedent verification of these – would be a very bad one even if it weren't impracticable, vulnerable to abuse, and a standing invitation to the worst kinds of OR, all of which things it obviously is.–-- G-Dett 19:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
HIS MOTHER - if she was in a death camp, then her statement( if true ) seems to say that she didn't know of/believe the death camp story.
Yaocihuatl has edited the Norman Finkelstein page, changing "son of Holocaust survivors" to "son of Auschwitz survivors". Only one of Finkelstein's parents was at Auschwitz, so the edit is incorrect. See the Biography section on www.normanfinkelstein.com. I will revert this change within one week. I have left this message on Yacihautl's talk page and invited him/her to email for discussion. Roberterubin 01:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
If his mother appears to question the holocaust after being in Auschwitz, how many other survivors question it?
I removed the following, which was placed under "Criticisms of Finkelstein's Scholarship":
Saying that someone is despicable, lies to promote his own agenda and has "a formal psychological syndrome" is not a critique of his scholarship -- it's an ad hominem attack. Nor is the fact that someone thinks an individual is truly "a member of... a freak show..." appropriate for an encyclopedia entry. Unless, of course, they are. But only if it's a notable freak show. OhSusanne 08:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
'Shoah Biz' Critic Claims His Views Cost Him Prof Job -> doesnt work forward.com is notorious for this, must be how they archive their pages
This article is not NPOV. It appears to be an advertisement for the subject. All those external links are not in proper Wikipedia formatting for citations. All the sources being linked need to be re-formatted into proper citation format, checked for notability and reliability; many probably need to be deleted as there needs to be a rationale for including them in an enclopedia entry. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources; Wikipedia:Cite and other editing policies. This does not read like an encyclopedia article. It looks like an alternate website for the subject. Finkelstein's own website is a commercial site advertising his own publications and career. This article needs a complete overhaul. Sample structure is: Introduction; Biographical facts (e.g. Personal or Family life); Wikiquote; Bibliography; Notes (including all those not yet formatted properly as citations); References; External links; See also. --NYScholar 10:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Many "appearances" ("Speaking engagements" from 2000 to 2007) are listed on the subject's own website, which is already linked in "External links" section.
The entire section below needs to be checked for notability and reliability of sources and re-formatted in proper bibliographical format; it should not be a section of external links. They need to be citations (and checked) with dates accessed. [It is possible that a reverse-chronological order would make more sense than alphabetical after this list is checked, verified, and finalized, if it is to be included at all. (updated) --NYScholar 14:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)]
Appearances
- Burlington, VT: Finkelstein on Hamas, current crisis, Lebanon, Hezbollah ( 30 September 2006)
- Finkelstein at Columbia University ( 8 March 2006)
- Debate with Fmr. Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami on Israel, the Palestinians, and the Peace Process (Democracy Now!) ( 14 February 2006)
- On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History by Norman G. Finkelstein, School of Oriental and African Studies, London, UK, 28 November 2005 and Resonance FM Radio, 9 December 2005
- Flashpoints (KPFA) radio interview ( 28 December 2005)
- Al Jazeera Interview ( 30 November 2005)
- BBC World Service Interview ( 29 November 2005)
- Georgetown: Finkelstein Speech Contributes to Debate (The Hoya) ( 22 November 2005)
- Israel-Palestine: Roots of Conflict, Paths to Peace ( 17 November 2005)
- Finkelstein at Yale University ( 20 October 2005)
- Harvard Law: Amicus Curiae: Justice for Palestine or Jew-Baiting? (The Record) ( 20 October 2005)
- Finkelstein interview transcript (WNUR 89.3 Chicago) ( 17 September 2005)
- Carnegie Mellon talk: Don't Tell Anyone! ( 14 March 2005)
- Academia Threatened (The Tartan, by CMU Faculty) ( 25 April 2005)
- SayWhat? Controversial speakers need to be reviewed (The Tartan) ( 26 September 2005)
- Committee to review at-issue speakers (The Tartan) ( 26 September 2005)
- Do we need another committee? (The Tartan) ( 26 September 2005)
- Heckling is hateful (The Tartan) ( 3 October 2005)
- Ali Abunimah responds (The Tartan) ( 3 October 2005)
- Vancouver Public Library ( 15 May 2004)
- Debate with Alan Dershowitz ( 24 September 2003)
- Population Transfer: Is Israel Considering Expelling Palestinians to Jordan Under Cover of Iraq War? ( 18 September 2002)
- Progressive roundtable ( 21 August 2002)
- Ariel Sharon Plans to Annex Half of the West Bank: A Debate On the History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and Zionism ( 23 April 2002)
- Is criticizing Israel anti-Semitic? A debate ( 16 April 2002)
- Restoring the Debt: Descendents of Slaves File for Reparations From US Corporations That Profited From Slavery ( 28 March 2002)
- The Holocaust Industry ( 13 July 2000)
- German Government Announces Deal On Compensation for Former Jewish Slave Laborers ( 17 December 1999)
- Process Begins for Distributing Holocaust Reparations ( 1 December 1998)
- Palestinian Leader Arafat Visits Washington ( 1 December 1998)
All these so-called "appearances" and so-called "debates" need to be sorted out; some are "interviews" and need to be re-formatted as entries in a bibliography as such and placed in either the new section including "interviews with" or a new subsection for "interviews" can be developed. The so-called "debate" with Dershowitz is actually a joint interview conducted by Amy Goodman; whereas Finkelstein calls it a "debate" on his website and elsewhere, he knows that Dershowitz does not and that Dershowitz has refused to "debate" him. --NYScholar 10:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
If the material is already listed on Finkelstein's own Curriculum vitae, that CV is linked in "External links" and there is no rationale for listing the items already on it separately in an encyclopedia article such as this one is supposed to be. If the items are already listed on his commercial website, say at Upcoming (and past) speaking engagements, there is no need to list them here (again). --NYScholar 10:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why there is a section on the extreme right supporting Finkelstein. There could be as well a section on the extreme left supporting finkelstein. Or the moderate right. Or the moderate left. Or a section on "Hilberg supports Finkelstein". Shouldn't all these opinions just be put together in a section on "repercussion of his work"? It would be nice to say, as well, out of fairness, that Finkelstein has in more than one occasion, manifested absolute distance of these groups (explicitly extreme-right and holocaust deniers).-- Ninarosa 07:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC) Fine, then we should integrate the quotations into the rececption of his work section. -Bloon
This appears serious, see: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/arts/12tenu.html Involves Middle East Studies Association of North America and others now. (Also this talk page really needs to have some of its material archived. It is incredibly long.) --64.230.127.125 08:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Jay, how have you determined that Finkelstein is not a scholar of antisemitism?-- G-Dett 18:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys! Could somebody here please add our Scots Wikipedia article on the subject to your page along with the other versions? Thanx:} ممتاز 22:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC) http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein ممتاز 22:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Is there something wrong with freedom of speech? Is somthing wrong with being able to voice your opinion? PEople educated such as you must be able to put these together? By the way any one care looking up how the ADL was formed. It is a criminally openly one sided organization.
---
We forgot to add that Mr Finkelstein is called a 'self-hating Jew' as well (corrected). For sources see his webpage (mail section), there are Jewish leaders that name him so, so we could add who is saying that. Also it is important to add his email section for opinions and debate (added). I remember reading that he has shaken the hand of (now late) Hamas leader, will we add that he is associated with the terrorists, Al-Quaeda? And why not just reproduce the ADL backgrounder here in full (smartly, as copyright restrictions still apply)? Just email the ADL and they will be pleased to help.
And by the way, ADL recently lost in court specifically for defaming people (accused a pair in anti-Semitism, intimidated and forced them out of business), couple of millions were paid. I suggest adding this information where ADL's opinions are mentioned (specifically its "holocaust denial" claim, and Foxman's "self-hating Jew").
---
http://www.olokaustos.org/saggi/interviste/finkel-en4.htm Now, 81, there it is, in your Saint Finkelstein's own words, that people have accused him of Holocaust Denial. All we say, and all you keep deleting, is that he's been accused. That's it. It's been verified. It's accurate. Now stop this constant reverting. Leumi AdL was founded to fight anti-semitism and other forms of racism. It does support Israel no one callls simple criticism of Israel anti-semitic. Norman Finklestein come sup with all these big anti-semitic lies.-Dendoi
(sigh) 81, point your browser to this letter from the ADL, which explicitly calls Finkelstein a "Holocaust denier". Whatever the validity of the accusations, however ridiculous they are, they have been made, and made by an organization with some weight in the courts of public opinion. Is that enough? (And if you're going to keep up these edit wars, will you please log in?) -- Mirv 22:47, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
-Leumi
81, whether you like the accusations against Finkelstein or not, they do exist; they were made by an influential group with a noticeable public voice; they are not Leumi's, nor are they mine. May I suggest that you, for the sake of balance and neutrality, find and note Finkelstein's responses to the charges, rather than simply removing them from the article? Obviously he denies them -- as I've noted -- but more detail would be appropriate. -- Mirv 23:23, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Oh joy, another edit war over who made the accusations. To stop this one before it gets rolling, I'll just point out that Friedman used an ADL letterhead and said, in the last paragraph, "[w]e would be very pleased to meet with you" and "[w]e look forward to the opportunity to discuss this matter" thus making it quite clear that he was speaking for the ADL. "The Anti-Defamation League accused . . . " -- rather than "David Friedman of the Anti-Defamation League accused. . ." -- is a more accurate statement. -- Mirv 00:15, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
This page is inaccuarate.
This page is inaccurate because of Leumi's continuing vandalism
I'll say it again: If you have a problem with the article, fix it: name the inaccuracies, show how they're wrong, and change them so they're right. Simply accusing Leumi of vandalism is neither constructive nor helpful; please don't do it. -- Mirv
Actually, I do have a big problem with you describing my edits of
Norman Finkelstein as "un-necessary reversions." Look again at the history and the changes and summary explanations closely. I made exactly one reversion and I provided what I considered to be a very good justification for it, but I found 81's response to it compelling. I believe the only reason that my edit is the last in the history is that I struck a compromise that both I and 81 were content with.
168... 16:58, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC) (That comment went out of date quickly
168... 17:06, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC))
I don't think I have been making too many "un-necessary revisions". The revisions I and 168.. made are essential parts of the back and forth process that creates an article, I felt. And I think calling 168...'s revisions unecessary is even less deserved, as he tends to be slightly more concise than I am about certain things. However, on the issues in the text and on most things, I think you've been perfectly reasonable and value your help here. Your mediation has helped things out a lot and I'd appreciate if you stick around. :) Leumi 17:07, 5 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Anonymous IP, read the ADL letter again. Notice what it says about Finkelstein -- it's in the second paragraph. To assert that the ADL said what it said "without providing evidence" is an egregious falsehood. By all means use more neutral language, but don't make up lies. -- Mirv 14:46, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
And Leumi, the same admonition goes for you. The ADL letter complained of inciting hatred and condoning -- not inciting -- violence against Israel. -- Mirv 15:31, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Anonymous, he's very public and unashamed in his support for Hezbollah -- it's not "alleged". Read this letter, where he says, referring to a lecture he gave in Lebanon, "I did make a point of publicly honoring the heroic resistance of Hezbollah to foreign occupation." -- Mirv 15:47, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Two reasons, two charges: Holocaust denial because of The Holocaust Industry, the stuff about Israel because of Hezbollah. Is the rewrite clearer? -- Mirv 15:56, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Nevertheless, that's what they said. It is evidence, however specious. Saying that the ADL provided no evidence is intentional misinformation. Encyclopedia articles should not contain misinformation. Am I making myself clear?
The readers may decide for themselves whether the evidence warrants the accusations; it is not our business to take sides on the matter, only to report what happened. -- Mirv 16:03, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
If I'm reading your fragmented sentences correctly, you seem to have confused two issues here: the first is whether Finkelstein denies the Holocaust or not (he does not, and the article makes no claim that he does); the second is whether the Anti-Defamation League had any reason to think that Finkelstein denies the Holocaust -- which they said they did (read the letter again). Vague evidence is evidence; the reader should decide its validity, not you. -- Mirv 16:16, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
There is no evidence that the ADl has provided evidence that Fink is Holo Denier. Saying that the moon is made of cheese because I feel hungry is not evidence that the moon is made of cheese.
RE: "Holocaust denial because of The Holocaust Industry"
Even staunch Zionists such as [http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22969 Debbie Schlussel ]have criticised the 'holocaust industry'. Does this make her a holocaust-denier as well?-- Conch Shell 13:40, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous one, you can't blank large swathes of the article just because you don't like them. Controversies surrounding Finkelstein's public activities are a part of his life whether you like them or not; you can't just decide that they're "non-biographical". Why don't you do some research and find out more about Finkelstein if you so badly want to improve this article? -- Mirv 17:47, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Also to anonymous User: Why did you remove Finkelstein's own words on Hezbollah. You removed the words " for what he calls, "having inflicted an exceptional and deserving defeat on their foreign occupiers," which stated nothing more than a direct quote from Finkelstein. As stated above, you can't remove anything that you think will reflect badly on Finkelstein. It is a direct quote by him, and you haven't provided any justification for removing it. Leumi 23:37, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Re: Finkelstein on Hezbollah -- If nobody minds, we should go with the version from the letter from which I extracted the other pro-Hezbollah quotations, rather than the ADL's quotation of a speech/lecture that's not transcribed anywhere accessible; that'll avoid the problem of possible misquotation.
And anonymatron, please don't make major changes without an edit summary, and if you are going to keep up these edit wars, I reiterate my request that you log in. -- Mirv 23:40, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I love you class Dr. Finkelstein!! Farah Merchant
I am not involved in this article (though I have opinions on it), but it unavoidably and annoyingly keeps coming up in Recent Changes. I am not commenting on it in any way, except to ask 195.xxx.... to cut out the "Irgun supporter" silliness, whether you agree with Leumi or not. Just for the sake of clarity, leumi is the Hebrew adjective for "national" (masculine gender). It means nothing else. There is even a large bank in Israel called Bank Leumi. Yes, the Irgun Zvai Leumi (National Military Organization) used the term in their name. Calling him an Irgun supporter, however, is about as baseless as calling him a "bank supporter." Why not keep to the arguments at hand, which seem to be proceeding in a fairly civil manner, despite the differences. Danny 23:49, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
--
As Noam Chomsky once said "The Anti-Defamation League specializes in defamation". I dispute the claim in the article that the ADL fights anti-semitism, it seems especially curious that in the case of Mr. Finkelstein the person they would be calling anti-semitic is a Jew. Perhaps anti-Zionism would be a closer match? Anyhow, I have changed that the ADL fights anti-semitism, to the ADL says it fights anti-semitism, putting their claim that they do so is fine, but as a claim, not a fact. -- Lancemurdoch 06:39, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)
The problem that I have with that is it unduely emphasizes one part of the organization. This is the organization's mission statement:
If you look at the amicus curiae briefs filed by the ADL [2], you may decide that the organization is not conservative at all but rather liberal. such as:
There are a number of others listed on the website that call into question the characterization of the ADL as "conservative". OneVoice 18:52, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
In the 1960s. the FBI collaborated with the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) of B’nai B’rith to infiltrate and spy upon a wide variety of dissident American political organizations. The names of some 62,000 American political dissidents were held in the FBI’s files during that period. ... FBI guidelines were changed dramatically in the mid-1970s after widespread public outrage upon the discovery of the COINTELPRO operation—following the death of FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, who worked closely with the ADL. New protocols stipulated that the FBI was only permitted to deploy undercover operatives in churches and mosques or inside political organizations if investigators had first found “probable cause” that persons inside those groups may have committed a crime. After the institution of the guidelines restricting the FBI’s ability to spy on domestic political dissidents, however, the ADL rushed in to do the spying. The illicit fruits of the ADL’s intelligence ventures still ended up in the hands of the FBI, the BATF, the CIA, the IRS and other federal agencies with which the ADL maintained close contact. [3]
The ADL claims to be the nation's leading defender against prejudice and bigotry but in this instance its targets were members of the African National Congress and its supporters, and apparently everyone, Arab and non-Arab, who had the temerity to criticize Israel. This included some who drove to Arab community events where the ADL's "fact-finder", Roy Bullock, and the cop, Tom Gerard, took turns writing down their license plate numbers, which Gerard turned into addresses thanks to his access to California motor vehicle records. Their spying efforts proved to be part of a much larger intelligence gathering operation that targeted some 12,000 individuals and more than 600 left-of-center organizations in northern California. [...] Last November the California Court of Appeals handed down a decision that paves the way for a major test later this year of the ADL's penchant for spying on its enemies. It was the most significant episode in a slow-moving class-action case filed in 1993 by 19 pro-Palestinian and anti-apartheid activists who claim to be victims of the ADL's snooping operations. [4]
While the founding fathers may have opposed vouchers, there is no evidence they would have opposed it on 'separation of church and state' grounds. Thats the whole basis of the modern political argument--what a meaningful separation of church and state entails. Conservatives say that the founding fathers did not mean an absolute and complete legal disassociation between activities of the state and activities of the church---especially in the case of things like vouchers that may go to religious schools or funds that may go to faith-based organizations, when the religious group is just one of a number of organizations recieving funding. I haven't read most of the other discussion in this article; but I just wanted to comment on the fact that you didn't quite seem to get this fundamental point in the modern political debate. Would Eisenhower have argued against vouchers because he thought government money has to be discriminatory against ending up in the hands of religious groups, like many people today will argue? Brianshapiro
Today, largely as a result of Finkelstein's analysis and criticism, Peters' book is controversial among scholars and largely disregarded. I do not understand this sentence. Something largely disregarded cannot be controversial at the same time. Could we make a decision whether it is taken seriously or not? Any "scholars" here? at 0 09:12, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Jay has asked me to comment. Certainly Finkelstein should be noted as a critic of Peters, as this is a big part of Finkelstein's narrative. But I'm not sure about the idea that it was received with skepticism. What do you mean by "mainstream publication"? The mass media in the US certainly seems to have given a positive reception to the book. Part of the problem here may have to do with the way reviews are done in the US. Mainstream non-scholarly publications in the US generally invite broadly defined "Men (or Women) of Letters," or public intellectuals, or what have you, to review books, rather than actual experts in the field in question. Scholarly journals, on the other hand, usually take a while to review books. In Britain, as I understand it, things are different, and actual experts review books. So what's going on here isn't an American, or an American scholarly, bias towards nonsense like Peters. It's a bias towards nonsense like Peters from hackish "public intellectuals" like Barbara Tuchman and Lucy Dawidowicz, and so forth. American scholars didn't really get themselves involved until after Israeli and British scholars attacked it in mainstream reviews. Now, it seems to me that this is a problem, but it's a problem that says more about the way American scholarly or pseudo-scholarly books are reviewed than it does about American bias towards Israel. And I think that Finkelstein/Said/Chomsky's account of how the controversy worked itself out should be taken with a very large grain of salt. These people have an agenda to push. Why not simply say that "Finkelstein's charges initially aroused little attention"? This is undeniably true. john k 15:39, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, I could continue to argue. I will note that "arousing little attention" and "being ignored" are quite different things - the first implies no normative judgment, while the second does. But I will say no more than that, and just ask whether or not my formulation is generally acceptable. john k 16:24, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Can you quit saying "journal," when you mean "mainstream press," Sneaky? Scholarly journals were pretty uniform in either ignoring or attacking Peters's book, and as I noted, scholarly journals take along time to print reviews, anyway. "Journal" is a term which suggests the American Historical Review, not the New Republic or the Atlantic Monthly. That the mainstream press did not publish Finkelstein's work seems to be true. To attribute a motive to this seems to me to be inherently POV, especially when one is doing so based entirely on the say so of an interested party. john k 07:18, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sneaky, do you object to just saying that "Finkelstein's work roused little attention?" If so, why? If not, what are we arguing about? john k 01:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, there's issues of balance. How important, in the scope of an encyclopedia article about Finkelstein in general, is it to put a lengthy quote from him about this particular issue? Doesn't this rather unbalance things? Furthermore, there are NPOV issues - it seems to me that quoting Finkelstein at length implies that his view is accurate. And adding weaselly stuff at the end makes it even worse. I'd much prefer to keep it simple. He wrote the critique, and it didn't arouse much attention. Then British reviewers and so forth savaged it, and it was revived. Perhaps some point could be made that for Finkelstein and others, this showed the dominance of the American media by pro-Israeli elements (or whatever it is that Finkelstein is arguing), and in that context, perhaps, Finkelstein's quote is relevant. I don't think it's relevant as an explanation of what actually happened. john k 03:41, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
1) Well, there's some bits that are unclear. What does it mean that periodicals that hadn't reviewed the book rejected Finkelstein's work on the subject "as of little or no consequence?" Which is of little consequence - Finkelstein's work, or Peters's? 2) I mean, I don't want to have "Finkelstein says such and such, but others would disagree." That's just annoying. 3) Yes, you're right, in that limited context. But isn't this the broader point that Finkelstein is making? It's certainly the point that Said makes in his review of the affair. While, out of context, the quote seems largely fine, it is part of a larger argument, isn't it? As such, I don't think we can take it as a dispassionated account of the facts. john k 07:03, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
(1) In the abovementioned Thanksgiving Day, 1985 issue of the NYT, Yehoshua Porath was quoted as saying that the Peters book "is a sheer forgery....In Israel, at least, the book was almost universally dismissed as sheer rubbish, except maybe as a propaganda weapon" (Image and Reality, 46-7). Porath is perhaps Israel's foremost expert on Palestinian history. "Hoax" and "sheer forgery" are not readily distinguishable in my view. Reviewers' assessments aside, Peters plagiarized entire passages from Ernst Frankenstein's Justice for My People, a Zionist propaganda tract (cf. Image and Reality, pp. 42-5). Yet, according to Jayjg, "to describe it as a 'hoax'" is "overblown and POV". Presumably describing it as "'a sheer forgery' that plagiarizes generously from Zionist propaganda" is also "overblown and POV". (2) A truly delusional assessment. (3) I don't claim that the "silence" from Finkelstein's critics on this matter proves that people agree with Finkelstein; ergo, there's no "logical fallacy", as I assume Jayjg is aware despite his accusation. I said, "'POV' suggests that there is some dispute. Clearly there is none here among informed observers." That doesn't mean he's right; however, it does mean that no one's challenged him - so who are we, as Wikipedia editors, to be the first, when our challenge would be solely based on speculation? But anyway, my proposal addreses this. I repeat: "how about this, guys: 'Finkelstein's critique initially roused little attention. According to Finkelstein, "[excerpt]".' Does that seem reasonable?" I think it's eminently reasonable, because it begins with some anodyne "NPOV" glossing, and then clearly attributes the (undisputed) narrative of events to Finkelstein. I'll go ahead and make the change, and, having already made every conceivable argument to substantiate it, will henceforth withdraw from this debate. sneaky 03:12, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)
Wow. It isn't that he ought to be ashamed for his name; it's that I don't see his motive. -- VKokielov 04:02, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Xed, do you imagine that insertions like "meticulous scholarship and advocacy of positions on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict which are viewed as controversial by Zionists. He has been highly critical of exploitation of Holocaust survivors by Zionist organizations and has written extensively on the ideological abuse of anti-semitism and the Holocaust by supporters of Zionism and of Israel" are at all NPOV? Do you understand that the claim that he is known for "meticulous scholarship", that only Zionists view him as controversial, that Holocaust survivors are "exploited" by Zionist organizations, that supporters of Zionism and Israel "ideologically abuse" anti-semitism and the Holocaust are POV claims? Please take WP:NPOV seriously. Jayjg 18:53, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Please respond to my comment above - do you recognize the difference between a POV assertion and a statement of fact? Jayjg 19:12, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I have documented specific POV issues, among many - please read the comment above. Again, do you honestly think that phrases that assert he "argues persuasively" or which describe his works as "devastating" are NPOV? Do you think that removing actual citations and insering POV about Gov Schwarzenegger follow Wikipedia's editing policies? If you want to defend all the POV insertions made by that IP editor, feel free to do so here. Jayjg (talk) 19:21, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
No, Xed, "argues persuasively" is a POV, as are all the other items I have brought up. If the Max Stirner article contains simlar POV, that does not make it acceptable here. Furthermore, the article cannot adopt Finkelstein's POV as fact, but must present it as his position. Please take these issues (and Wikipedia policy) seriously, and justify these attempted inclusions. Jayjg 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Xed, Talk: pages are for the purpose of discussing article content; please try to do so. See previous comments above as well. Jayjg (talk) 20:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The outsourced edit-warring continues ( User_talk:Mel_Etitis#Norman_Finkelstein). You would think Jayjg would be circumspect in going against Wikipedia (see [9]) - Xed 09:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
In order to avoid edit-wars, we can begin to assign sourced to all opinions. What has been eliminated are Norman's POVs, and since this is an article about him these opinions should be included. We can't describe his positions as controversial, because all opinions are when they are not agreed upon 100%. Certainly the sources included at the bottom of the article support that he does have some POV critical to certain movements. -- Vizcarra 21:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
How about this: changing
The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) called Finkelstein a " Holocaust denier" and accused him of pursuing an anti-Semitic agenda.
to
Predictably, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) called Finkelstein a " Holocaust denier" and accused him of pursuing an anti-Semitic agenda, accusations Finkelstein flatly dismisses. "
Do we need to discuss here how this is a POV edit, or is it obvious to all? Or how about changing
Finkelstein has expanded his findings in a book entitled Beyond Chutzpah...
to
Finkelstein subsequently expanded his findings in a devastating volume entitled Beyond Chutzpah...
I'm not sure if this is the proper venue to discuss why the insertion of "devastating" is purely POV. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 22:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
certainly isn't. It is a fact that he's been called such by the ADL. "Predictably" is certainly POV, I give you that. -- Vizcarra 23:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) called Finkelstein a " Holocaust denier" and accused him of pursuing an anti-Semitic agenda.
After reviewing the discussoin here and the recent edits, I have reverted the edits. They seem to have added a large amount of POV material. I'm sure we can improve this article, but let's not add POV in the process. - Willmcw 05:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Apparently is was not the linked Fisher ( Mark Fisher) who said it, but rather Marc Fisher, a columnist for the Washington Post. As such, I'm not sure it's encyclopedic, as I don't know enough about Marc Fisher. Jayjg (talk) 22:21, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Norman G. Finkelstein (born December 8, 1953) is an American who is an assistant professor of political science at DePaul University. Although he claims to be a full professor, he is an assistant professor. Finkelstein is infamous for his ad hominem debating style. During lectures, such as at Yale University, and on webcasts, he often calls another person an "imbecile", "idiot", "fraud", or "liar". Unlike most professors (even assistant professors), he has never published a scholarly or research paper in a peer reviewed journal. His books are not published in the mainstream press.
Last addition to introduction (Finkelstein only being accepted by the far-right) is too debatable to include.
-Finkelstein includes ad hominum articles on his website that he disagrees with, the fact that the quote was taken from his website proves nothing, see his letters section which includes viscous hate mail.-HW
This is another example of the failure of wikipedia: "owners" of site take control and through fair or foul means (e.g. claiming an editor is a "vandalizer" and barring that editor from further edits) prevent opposing credited viewpoints from being posted. This article is replete with personal opinions (e.g. a book by Peters is "widely discredited" - bs). - by finkelsein supporters, who fight to delete opposing validated additions. and btw, unfortunately a jew can be an antisemite, in addition to finkelstein himself there are dozens that role off the tongue (does the name Adam Shapiro ring any bells)? so have your fun all you little anti semites, edit the page to your hearts content, in the real world it won't make a bit of difference (and wikipedia as a valid source of information is further discredited). ag
Peters book "is widely discredited" bs - really, I thought her book was totally discredited. The book is a complete embarrasment - rarely even mentioned today. Finkelstein seems to put a lot of faith in Raul Hilberg - bad judgement on his part. Hilberg's major work has major unheralded revisions over time - many are a "denier's" dream come true. His testimony in the Zundel trial will live forever ( he cast more doubt on the Nuremberg trials than any "denier" could hope for.)
212.51.20.123 has reverted to the short version. I basically agree that this section shouldn't be so long, but the short version is strongly biased against Dershowitz, and contains many false statements.
1. The plagiarism charge isn't really "he said, she said." It isn't NPOV to say "Opinions differ on whether the earth is flat," and leave it at that.
Even assuming that Dershowitz has done all the things Finkelstein accuses him of, he's not guilty of plagiarism, as defined in many academic-writing manuals. The current version claims that F.'s book "documents" the plagiarism charge, when the opposite is true: it accuses him of some acts that don't add up to plagiarism (not to mention that F.'s editors forced him to remove the word "plagiarism."
2. Dersh. has said that he regards F.'s charge that he didn't write the book as the more important charge, and it is certainly more serious and specific than "plagiarism." The short version makes no mention of this charge.
3. It's the least important problem, but this is false too: "As evidenced by the reviews in the list that follows this article, the book has received a polarised reception: praise from fellow-critics of Israel (including a number of Jewish writers) and intense hostility from supporters of Israel."
First, there is no list of reviews. Second, the most important point about the reviews is that there have been almost none in the U.S.: I'm not even sure that it's accurate to use the plural "supporters." I'm aware of only one critical review in the U.S. (F. has mostly been ignored, not criticized). Finally, the opposition between "fellow-critics of Israel" and "supporters of Israel" is horribly biased. Many (even most) writers would claim to be both. Others are neither, and wrote their reviews from neutral points of view. Ragout 15:01, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
"Still others believe that supporters of Hizbullah and Holocaust minimizers like Norman Finkelstein - who uses his Jewish birth to cover for his anti-Semitism - are real Jews. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I now propose a new vocabulary for describing these imposters. From now on, the Neturei Karta should be known as Jews for Ahmadinejad, and Norman Finkelstein and his ilk should be known now as Jews for Hizbullah."- Jews for Ahmadinejad
Hi, everyone. I just want to point-out that my addition to the Finkelstein+Dershowitz section of this page was a single sentence describing Noam Chomsky's defense of Finkelstein on Democracy Now!. The other inflammatory statements concerning Robert Faurisson, Holocaust denial and anti-semitism were added by a third party. Thanks to the user 4.231.214.248 for cleaning-up that section, because I was unaware of the insertion. How was it possible for someone to paste something into my contribution to give it the appearance that I had written something I hadn't? Also, what is "rv"? Thanks, SK.
Deuterium says "Thee plagiarism claim has been taken seriously by the mainstream media and the academic world and has been presented as a serious debate and has _not_ been presented as a cut-and-dried issue where one side is correct and the other is wrong. There are at least two mainstream book reviews cited that agree with Finkelstein's argument.
Finkelstein - He is definitely ignored by the mainstream media, the question could be who controls the mainstream media. He can be silenced by showing his errors, or if that is impossible then never let him be heard.
The 2003 discussion on this page provided a complete guide to what is an argument and what is an opinion. Why repeat it??? But if somebody needs to discuss something, please do it here - my computer time is too limited for a revert war!
This section is growing excessively long. The article is about Norman Finkelstein in general, not just his conflict with Dershowitz. It should state only the major points of the D-F debate -- there is an entirely separate article discussing the Dershowitz-Finkelstein Affair.
Part of the problem is the redundancy of the article. There is no need to say twice that Dershowitz threatened to sue. There is no need to say three times that F. has accused D. of lacking knowledge about his book. Hence, I'm removing these redundencies. Ragout 05:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
1. Mentioning Dershowitz's letter to the governor makes D. look a little foolish, but has no relevance to the plagiarism charge or the ghostwriting charge. It belongs in the D-F Affair article, and I'm removing it from here.
2. Someone has written:
This is incoherent, mostly because the rebuttal (F. didn't remove ghostwriting charge) has swallowed the original claim (F. did remove ghostwriting charge). It is also poorly written. So I'm reverting it.
3. This statement from the article is extremely biased: Finkelstein expanded his findings in a book entitled Beyond Chutzpah, providing evidence that in at least two instances, Dershowitz reproduces errors in Peters' citiation of original sources, and so could not have checked the original sources he cited.
This statement says: F. ... provided evidence ... that D. could not have checked the original sources he cited. F. may claim this, but it is not a fact. There is not reason why D. could not have have reproduced the errors, and also checked the original sources. So I will edit this to make it NPOV.
4. The article says that citing original sources without consulting them violates rules in the CMS and WWS. This is true, but the article should make clear that neither source calls these violations "plagiarism." The WWS rule isn't even in the plagiarism chapter.
5. I've removed the cites to academic studies of citation practices, which Deuterium objects to on the grounds that they discuss scientific fields rather than history. This is true, but irrelevant, since the rules for plagiarism and citations are the same for those fields. WWS doesn't say "plagiarism is bad, except in scientific research" ! However, I'll move them to the D-F affair article in the interests of brevity and comity.
6. I've removed the sentence: When confronted by Finkelstein, Dershowitz admitted that if "somebody borrowed the quote without going to check back on whether Mark Twain had said that, obviously that would be a serious charge." [13]
This sentence is stripped of important context and so is misleading. So I'm deleting it.
In context it is clear that D.'s use of the phrase "the quote" does not refer to just any quotation. "The quote" refers specifically to inaccurate quotations that don't accurately reflect what the source said. No one has accused D. of this -- so he's being a little tricky, defending himself against something no one has alleged. Further, in context, D. is talking about quotes from Peters, which may be relevant to his point. He may be saying that it would be stupid to quote Peters without checking the original sources, since it is well known that some Peters quotes are inaccurate. Ragout 05:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
(copied from SV's talk page)
If I understand you correctly, you believe that citing the definition of plagiarism and attributing to a reputable source amount to "Original Research." In the Norman Finkelstein article I tried to describe the definition, and you deleted it on the grounds that it's OR. I don't see your logic here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ragout ( talk • contribs)
SlimVirgin says this debate over quoting the CMS is moot because he (or she) has fixed the article already, by quoting an alternate source. Obviously, SlimVirgin hasn't been following this page for too long. Already, a few hours later, somebody has raised the issue again, adding to the article:
The Chicago Manual of Style discourages the use of secondary ("quoted in..") citations with the expectation that the author will have consulted the originals. Ragout 10:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Ragout, his edits are clearly not OR. Cadr 15:10, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't think SlimVirgin understands the WP:NOR policy, at least not as it was originally written. Now he has practically rewritten the policy to tailor fit it to his particular bias on the Dershowitz/Finkelstein debate. Then he has the Chutzpah to quote the policy back at you as an authority in this instance. The idea that you can't quote anything directly, but only in triangulation is nonsense. It creates bias rather than objectivity. Maybe we need to escalate his rewriting of the WP:NOR policy to the Council of Elders. -- 1010011010 18:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, WP:NOR does not say you can't use a primary source to refute an argument. It says precisely the opposite. OR "introduces an argument, without citing a reputable source, that purports to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position." Hence siting a reputable source, whether primary or secondary, means that it is not OR. Citing original sources is actually encouraged. Ragout 03:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Some editors seem unhappy with the following language:
on the grounds that WWS calls borrowing ideas plagiarism.
But both are true. The WWS does not call citing w/o consulting "plagiarism." And it does call borrowing ideas "plagiarism." So, I think the article should explain that the WWS says both these things. So, please stop deleting the statement about quoting sources without consulting not being plagiarsim (according to WWS). Instead add a statement about what is plagiarism. Ragout 13:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Referencing a citation database is not original research. Citation records are only a partial measure of a work's scholarly reception, obviously, but they are verifiable. -- Danny Yee 05:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
ISI Web finds just one citation since 1988 -- and that's by Edward Said. And the earlier citations are mostly in e.g. the Times Literary Supplement and the New York Review of Books, which aren't primary scholarly journals. I think that's sufficient evidence for "not highly regarded among scholars", though I agree with Jayg that it's not evidence for "discredited". -- Danny Yee 05:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
I see that MEMRI's severely edited Finkelstein interview is causing some misunderstandings. Readers are directed here for a correction. CJCurrie 03:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
At least Finkelstein is smart enough to note ( know) that you can't have too many survivors if you want to claim a holocaust. How come he seems to be the only one trying to get the numbers to add up who can count?
As a followup, Finkelstein I believe has pointed out that the Revisionists and the Historians seem to be converging to the same numbers. IE it is getting hard to point out the revisionists from the historians - only the politically correct seem to be on shore.
What a horrible page he has. It needs a redo. Especially separating facts and opinions. Why are we this bad & unreadable on wikipedia? I'll start changing, - DePiep 19:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I've restored the reference to the ADL's description of Finkelstein as a Holocaust denier. I had entered this material in a previous edit and somehow neglected to source it, my apologies. The NOR rule was also raised so I'd like to clarify. The ADL in this case was specifically responding to The Holocaust Industry and pointing to it as evidence for its claim that Finkelstein is a Holocaust denier. The Finkelstein quote is not a random one selected for juxtaposition with the ADL quote; it is rather the concluding sentence and argumentative summary of the very book the ADL is referring to. -- G-Dett 14:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, the ADL letter (to the president of Georgetown University) describing Finkelstein as a Holocaust denier has been quoted either in part or in its entirety in any number of publications. Is Frontpage Magazine considered reliable in this respect? If so, there's this article [20] as well as this one [21]. Also, Georgetown University published the letter itself online in pdf format here [22].
As for the NOR rule: the ADL's letter refers explicitly to The Holocaust Industry, but not this particular quote. The quote is not, however, in any sense a random one; it is the book's thesis. The book not only accepts but is indeed premised on the fact of the Holocaust; the argument is that both its victims and survivors have been abused, for financial and political reasons, by a reparations and commemoration "industry" that enriches those in charge of it while exploiting the suffering of those it claims to represent. The enormity of the Holocaust, what Finkelstein calls its "staggering proportions," is precisely what makes its exploitation so appalling from Finkelstein's point of view. That argument is repeated in countless formulations throughout the book; my selection was "random" only in the sense that it was taken from the last page, when virtually any other would have done just as well.
The anonymous editor of the the talk entry below writes that "what should be given is both whatever quote or fact the ADL has cited to claim that Finkelstein is a denier (or what there basis is, if it is based on private conversations whose contents are not a matter of record or something similar), as well as that quote that is already there as Finkelstein's response. This article just makes the ADL look completely ridiculous."
First of all, the quote we're discussing is not "Finkelstein's response." The ADL letter is a response to the book whose thesis consists of the quote in question. First comes NF's book, then the ADL's response. I thought I had made this sequence clear in the wording of the disputed edit.
Now, without lapsing into original research, or indeed speculation, I can't say why the ADL has responded to a book that begins with the fact of the Holocaust as its very foundation by describing its author as a "Holocaust denier." But that is what has happened. Here is the "quote or fact the ADL has cited to claim that Finkelstein is a denier," taken directly from the ADL letter: "in his highly publicized book, 'The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering,' Finkelstein argues that the Holocaust 'has become a straight-out extortion racket.'” Whether the ADL looks ridiculous or not depends on your POV, I suppose. What they've done here is simply to substitute the word "Holocaust" for Finkelstein's phrase, "Holocaust Industry."
I'll defer to Jayjig's authority and experience with regard to wikipedia protocol, but I have serious misgivings about this deletion. This section is about Finkelstein's feud with the ADL. The ADL's accusation of Holocaust denial is centrally relevant to that feud, as is the argument of the book that prompted the ADL to level the accusation in the first place. We should figure out how to get the material into the article without violating NOR.-- G-Dett 22:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
The links to the ADL letter and the two FrontPageMagazine articles quoting the ADL letter? They seem right to me...
"""I can't say why the ADL has responded to a book that begins with the fact of the Holocaust as its very foundation by describing its author as a "Holocaust denier.""" - He's lucky he wasn't called anti-Semitic, self-hating Jew, etc - favorite ADL tactics ad nauseum. Truthfully, I believe Finkelstein is too smart to believe much of the Holocaust story - and too smart to say so publically. He certainly can't have read Hilberg and been convinced ( he has a PhD doesn't he ). (anonymous edit added by 159.105.80.92)
"a plant"? - you mean a denier? Anyone who delves into the subject with the smallest amount of effort ( that means reads more than one side of an issue ) soon sees where Finkelstein stopped reading ( he didn't want to know what the next page said - or he is dishonest/careful and protecting his career ). Finkelstein's own statements show that what he has read leads him to the "story" conclusion - he is just cagey.
Isn't the ADL classified as a terrorist organization - maybe it is the other DL group. Who cares what a group of loons calls him/you except from long distance.
This article is mostly ok but there is blatant POV in the ADL section as well as the Dershowitz section. In the ADL section, I'm quite certain that the ADL did not point to that particular quote to make their case. Nor does that quote necessarily prove anything, Finkelstein could have contradicted himself at some point. So, what should be given is both whatever quote or fact the ADL has cited to claim that Finkelstein is a denier (or what there basis is, if it is based on private conversations whose contents are not a matter of record or something similar), as well as that quote that is already there as Finkelstein's response. This article just makes the ADL look completely ridiculous. Similarly with Dershowitz. Even if all the facts presented in the section were true (and I somehow think there's more too it than that), there's clear bias in the writing. Further, of all the claims that Finkelstein made the article focuses to choose on one rather unique case where Dershowitz might have screwed up. This is not representative of the fact that Finkelstein probably made thousands of claims against Dershowitz and at least some of his claims are doubtless nonsense. In other words, this article only mentions Finkelstein's best and Dershowitz's worst performance. Further, the comments added on the quote presented near the end of the section are unnecessary, and are quite clearly POV.
Response: "This article just makes the ADL look completely ridiculous" for calling Finkelstein a denier, the editor above complains. I'm not sure I follow the implied logic here regarding POV. There are numerous citable instances of Finkelstein affirming the fact of the Holocaust; there are no citable instances of him denying it. He has never once shown any interest in doing primary historical research into the details of the Holocaust, and has affirmed again and again that he simply accepts the consensus findings of mainstream scholars regarding what he calls the "staggering dimensions of Hitler's Final Solution." He is the son of Holocaust survivors, and in the forthcoming Haunted House, portions of which have been published, he writes about his parents' experiences in the Warsaw Ghetto and in the concentration camps. And he periodically issues statements like the following: "No rational person disputes that the Nazis systematically exterminated 5-6 million Jews."
The ADL nevertheless describes him as a "Holocaust denier." Your understanding of the NPOV rule is that we should present the accusation in such a way that it appears plausible? Because otherwise the ADL might look ridiculous? -- G-Dett 18:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, I've reverted your latest edit, in which you deleted a sentence about Finkelstein dismissing the charge of "Holocaust denial" as libelous. Your reasoning that the reference should be moved to a page about a minor-league journalist is unconvincing. The ADL established the precedent for describing Finkelstein as a Holocaust denier. (Most of those who followed suit have been careful to quote the ADL rather than directly repeating the libel.) Finkelstein's general rejection of the charge absolutely belongs in this section.
In another context Jayjg has written, "If Michael Moore were to say George W. Bush is a bastard, NPOV does not demand we say 'His father was allegedly George Bush Sr., though Michael Moore claims he is a bastard.'" That was well said, Jayjg, and the same principle applies here. It is noteworthy when someone prominent says something demonstrably false about someone, but NPOV does not require that we treat an unsupported and unsupportable charge as somehow plausible.
I've also removed the following from Jayjg's edit: "Regarding his book The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering, the ADL states "Finkelstein argues that the Holocaust ‘has become a straight-out extortion racket.’ Finkelstein is well known for his anti-Israel rhetoric and his claims that Jews have exploited the Holocaust to make money. He has said that he ‘truly honored’ Hezbullah fighters from Lebanon for ‘having inflicted an exceptional and deserving defeat on their foreign occupiers,’ and that, ‘I can’t imagine why Israel’s apologists would be offended by a comparison to the Gestapo.’"
If you want to summarize the ADL's position on Finkelstein beyond what's given in the page as it is now, by all means do so. But there is no sound basis, in an article on Finkelstein, to extensively quote the ADL as it cobbles together quote-fragments from Finkelstein - unless the goal is simply to inject POV.
Furthermore, Jayjg's edit misleadingly makes it appear that all of the quote fragments cobbled together by the ADL somehow pertain to Finkelstein's book, The Holocaust Industry. In fact only one of them does. -- G-Dett 20:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The ADL section is bizarre. There are two whole paragraphs in which the ADL is quoted at length summarizing Finkelstein's arguments. Not making their own argument about him, just sort of speaking for him.
Just wondering Jay, how much of this edit do you suppose constitutes original research? CJCurrie 03:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Jayig, please do not get emotional. First of all, there is no incivility that I can see in your opponent's entries. When one can't rebut a valid criticism of his own position, an unsubstantiated attempt to turn the table by accusing an opponent of WP:PA and violation of WP:Civil is the wrong approach. I will not tell you "reread the WP:PA" because I am sure you know what's there. Just don't put the argument on its head by bringing up the policies that do not apply.
Now, to the specific of the argument. That "ADL does not support their accusations in Holocaust Denial by citing anything by F." is the statement of fact and not the interpretation. If you claim that this is a false statement of fact, the right way to proceed is to bring up any ADL's release where it accuses F in HD and adds examples of F's writings or speeches that he denies the Holocaust. When you come up with them, we will integrate them into the article. Until then, the statement of lack of substantiation of ADL accusation stands since ADL does not substantiate them in the Georgetown letter.
Finally, the article deflects significantly from an objective presentation tone by going at length to cite the ADL directly in the text. The lengthy quotations should be either eliminated or moved to refs. ADL is not an academic but a political organization. We should we wary of using the political quotes in encyclopedia article. Someone somewhere in a political speech said "Mission accomplished". Such statement cannot be used in Wikipedia article as a proof of a success of a certain mission. -- Irpen 23:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, telling that your responses and editing seems emotional is not an ad hominem in any way. My perception may be wrong and you are perfectly calm. If so, just say so. Now, you reverted me with no explanation whatsoever although I explained my edit above. Also, I tweaked the lead because the first phrase should say the most basic thing. Most basic is that he is a Political scientist and not that he is an assistant professor in DePaul. Please don't revert without explanation and don't cite NPA and Civil where this is unwarranted. TIA, -- Irpen 18:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, now user:Isarig made this revert in defiance on the ongoing talk discussion. Since he refused to provide the explanation at the article's talk, that I requested, I am posting here the message he left at my talk:
Since we have now two users who edit the article totally ignoring what their opponent are trying to say at talk, I see no other way as to POV label the appropriate sections until the dispute is resolved to, if not a consensus, but some form of a compromise between good-faith users.
As such, I will mark
One more time, I invite Jay to explain himself at talk. I am neither supporter or a hater of NF. All I want is the article to be moved forward from its current unacceptable state. -- Irpen 23:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Jay, I insist that there is no ad hominem in my entries. Also, there is plenty of explanations there. But I accept your offer to start this anew. Let's move forward in the next section. I will repeat my arguments there, if you wish. -- Irpen 23:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The controversy about OR here hinges on whether the disputed edit analyzes, rebuts, or refutes the ADL claim. I'll briefly state my position on this, with apologies to those who didn't pass over my previous posts.
Items 1 and 2 have been more or less pasted in from above – with all references to other editors removed, as per the guidelines for this new discussion. Item 3 is a proposed solution to the disputed edit.
1.It isn't a "novel claim" to write that the ADL's accusation was levelled "without specifically citing statements of doubt or denial." It's a straightforward presentation of the contents of a reliable source: a letter from the ADL to the president of Georgetown University, published online by Georgetown. That letter twice describes Finkelstein in general terms as a "known Holocaust denier." The letter does not point to instances of denial. It presents its description as a given, not as a case to be argued.
"How do you know [the ADL] haven't given evidence somewhere else?" it has been asked. The question is irrelevant. The edit in question doesn't say they haven't. It simply describes the nature of the accusation contained in the Georgetown letter. Elementary acts of reading comprehension do not constitute original research. The Georgetown letter is the reliable source. We don't need a second reliable source to say that the first reliable source says what it says. WP:V was not designed to create an infinite regress.
2.The edit does not attempt to refute or rebut the accusation in the ADL letter. That the accusation in question was made in general rather than specific terms, by appeal to consensus knowledge (Finkelstein is a “known Holocaust denier”) rather than cited examples, does not in itself discredit it. Any more than saying, “The president of the MLA referred to Walt Whitman as ‘the greatest poet in American history,’ without elaborating,” would discredit that worthy judgment.
3. My proposed solution would make clear that no analysis, rebuttal, or refutation is implied: "In a letter to the president of Georgetown University in 2002, the ADL expressed dismay about a Finkelstein event hosted by the university, and alleged in passing that Finkelstein was a 'known Holocaust denier.'"
I hope this provides a basis on which to move forward. -- G-Dett 03:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
"If all something requires is 'elementary acts of reading comprehension', then we certainly don't need to point it out to the reader," an editor ripostes. This is a red herring pickled in sophistry. Of course we don't point out to our readers what is obvious in the article itself. But we do make an effort to describe and summarize the secondary materials we link to with maximum accuracy and specificity, don't we? Otherwise Wikipedia would just be a metastasizing collage of unassimilated direct quotes and fragments thereof. Even the sentence here beginning, "Foxman also criticizes Beyond Chutzpah on similar grounds" would run afoul of the rather extreme version of original research being invoked on this page. 'After all,' an editor might object, 'what reliable source describes those grounds as similar? Oh, it's just obvious? Well then, if the grounds are so obviously similar, then we certainly don't need to point it out,' and so on, ad absurdum. -- G-Dett 05:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg, let me remind you that we are repeating this discussion in the second thread (basically rewriting it) only because you made a groundless accusation that those expressing the disagreement with you above were guilty of WP:PA, WP:Civil and WP:whatever. In fact, there was none of any of that. The discussions were mutually respectful. Then you claimed that you did not read the responses. I, actually, think your even saying so is grossly disrespectful. Reasonable editors try to work out their disagreements here in good faith and in the middle of this you, basically, say: "I don't read your arguments. So, I don't care". Now, THAT 's disrespect. So, may I please ask you to stay on topic, that it the article's content, and if you have anything to refute the points presented to you, do just that. If you, OTOH, just can't come up with any rebuttal, please just say so or accept the change rather than find a non-existing PA, ad hominem and claim there is nothing to talk about.
Now, to the points. As I said earlier, "ADL does not support their accusations in Holocaust Denial by citing anything by F.", at least not in Georgetown letter. This is a statement of fact and not the interpretation thereof. If you find the statement itself disputable, fine. Show how is that a false statement but there is no original research in stating that black color is darker than the white color, even when a particular source just mentions the colors of two objects and does not say which one is darker. Demanding to prove lack of substantiations is simply illogical. If you claim the statement is false, come up with the quote on where ADL in that letter cites any specifics and we will close the matter. Until then, the statement of lack of substantiation of ADL accusation stands since ADL does not substantiate them in the Georgetown letter. Besides, the article deflects significantly from an objective presentation tone by going at length to cite the ADL directly in the text. The lengthy quotations should be either eliminated or moved to refs. ADL is not an academic but a political organization. We should we wary of using political quotes in encyclopedia article. We should simply say: "ADL claimed that..." <ref> and have a quote in the refs section not a lengthy quote by such a political and non-academic organization as ADL inside the article's body.
My second significant problem with the article is the "criticism" section. It is basically a collection of cherry-picked lengthy quotes by his detractors not balanced by F's responses, but merely links that F. said something too. I don't think that the way to address it is to add equally lengthy quotes by F. The right way is to rewrite the whole thing as such: "Benny Morris wrote on F's writing that...<ref> to which F responded that...<ref>". The article in its current form merely gives an undue weight to F's criticism by supplying it with lengthy quotes, thus loosing any virtue of NPOV.
I hope I made my points clear and we will have a discussion to achieve some NPOV in this article. I would much prefer a reasonable solution coming out of this discussion quickly to keeping "POV-section" tags for an extended time, which may happen if the supporters of the current version simply refuse to talk and write here: "You can say whatever you want, we won't listen". Let's listen to each other and try to make one more article better. Cheers, -- Irpen 23:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with G-Dett's proposal with one correction. "...made passing but pointed reference to Finkelstein as a ‘known Holocaust denier' without citing any of his statements to substantiate such allegations". I absolutely disagree that calling a black color "dark" is "editorializing" (see my post above). ADL is a serious organization and we may expect the reader to be familiar with it (while not necessarily so). As such, the reader may expect that accusations from organization with such clout are somehow substantiated. The truth is that in this case they are not and the reader needs to know about this abnormalcy. If, OTOH, anyone can show the substantiation in ADL's letter, this is sufficient grounds to dismiss my correction. Also, if ADL substantiated those allegations elsewhere, it is fine to say so right after this phrase in the form of smth like: "In its earlier press-release of ... ADL cited the ... statement of F. as an example of his Denial of Holocaust".
What should be supported by refs in the article is the "presence" of substantiations, not lack of them. Absence of any example of presence means lack. Sorry, I am not an en-N user. Regards, -- Irpen 03:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
We don't need to say the car is dark when we know it is black, true enough. But there is no harm to say so when it is relevant. Similar, if we have a ref that someone is a New Yorker we are allowed to bring up that he was non-Bostonian if the context warrants that, while the ref we are using simply states that he was a New Yorker. Doing so is not adding or inventing content. Same here, lack of specifics in ADL letter is a fact. We just say so. It is up to you to show otherwise if you dispute their absense in ADL letter. It's presence, rather than absence is what has to be proven. As G-Dett said above, "elementary acts of reading comprehension do not constitute original research". That's an excellent way to say it. -- Irpen 04:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Isarig, when discussing POV, editorializing, etc., do try to distinguish between their proper use on the talk page, and alleged infractions in the article itself.
Isarig and Jayjg, could you say once and for all, what cited Finkelstein sentence in the Georgetown letter could be understood, by a person with normal reading comprehension skills, as indicative of Holocaust denial? -- G-Dett 23:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOR has no bearing on the talk page. I note, with some regret, the persistent confusion about protocol.
If elementary reading comprehension permits no ambiguity about the disputed edit, then there is no question of original research, and hence no valid objection, no basis for the revert war, and no basis even for this protracted debate. So, once again: what cited Finkelstein sentence in the Georgetown letter could be understood, by a person with normal reading comprehension skills, as indicative of Holocaust denial?-- G-Dett 23:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
As to your question: "referred to Finkelstein as" is better than "claimed that Finkelstein was," because the latter falsely suggests that an argument has been made. Beyond that, the words are OK. I propose to add, not delete, remember?
As to my question: the point of the exercise would be to determine, once and for all, whether we actually have a substantive dispute about the letter, or whether this has all been wikilawyering. Don't dodge.-- G-Dett 00:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Again: what cited Finkelstein sentence in the Georgetown letter could be understood, by a person with normal reading comprehension skills, as indicative of Holocaust denial?-- G-Dett 00:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Now, Jayjg, THAT above is of course civil right? Condescending tone plus making fun of your opponent's being non-native speaker who used a non-optimal and, perhaps, a non-existing word. I checked the dictionary and found out that such word is indeed not there. Should have said "abnormality". Please accept my apology for that.
Am I still allowed argue my disagreement with you? Because you earlier labeled a phrase "Please don't get emotional" an ad hominem (!) right above and now with the tone I am getting from you, I feel more and more certain that I am somehow unwelcome at this article. In case I am still allowed to post here, please note that I am not arguing to have the word "abnormalcy" mentioned in the mainspace. Neither I argue for "abnormality" as I also restrict it to a talk page. As for the mainspace, I simply want an article to mention a hard fact, that is "lack of substantiation in ADL letter". I have a reliable source for that. A letter itself. The letter 1) Makes an allegation; 2) does not substantiate it. These are sourced facts. If you disagree, please argue facts. -- Irpen
By such logic, saying that 9827364 is greater than 3562 is also original research. I doubt you can find such exact statement. If there is no substantiation in the letter, its absence is a fact. Since the reader will be supplied with a link to a letter, s/he will certainly be able to check the statement if s/he wishes. However, lack of substantiation in such a horrific accusation as being a Holocaust denialist is a big deal when the allegation is voiced by such an organization as ADL rather than in the blog hosted by Irpen. Important facts belong to the article. Lack of substantiation is a fact. Please read the letter. -- Irpen 02:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Isarig and Jayjg, I have now asked the following three times:
If neither of you has an answer to that, there is no question of original research and no basis for your revert war. Period. Each time I ask this, one of you replies by asking me a question, which I faithfully answer. I think I am now entitled to a simple answer from one or both of you on this, as is every editor who has followed this wearying discussion to this point. -- G-Dett 02:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Very well, Isarig, let's have it: demonstrate that Statement X exists by telling us what it is.
And Jayjg?-- G-Dett 03:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The nerve.
Isarig: hit [ctrl]-F and type “Jayjg rightly describes” and read from there through to the end of that post. That is one of the many candid, careful, detailed and direct iterations of my answer to your first question. Then hit [ctrl]-F and type “The point of the exercise would be" and that will take you to one of several straightforward iterations of my answer to your second question.
When you’re done, then please, as a basic demonstration that you’re not simply bluffing on an empty hand, answer my question:
I am leaving town (and Wikipedia) for a week. All that's needed for the edit to be satisfactory in my mind is that it should not inaccurately suggest that the ADL argued that Finkelstein was a "Holocaust denier."
Here are the two possible edits I agree with:
1."In a letter to the president of Georgetown University in 2002, the ADL expressed dismay about a Finkelstein event hosted by the university, and alleged in passing that Finkelstein was a 'known Holocaust denier.'"
2."In a 2002 letter to the president of Georgetown University expressing dismay about a Finkelstein event hosted by the university, the ADL referred to Finkelstein as a 'known Holocaust denier,'" without specifically citing statements of doubt or denial.
Or any of myriad variations thereof.
Isarig and Jayjg have objected to the phrases "in passing" and "without specifically citing statements of doubt and denial,", citing WP:POV and WP:NOR. Other editors see these as part of a straightforward presentation of the contents of a reliable source. Meanwhile, Isarig and Jayjg have coyly refused to say what Finkelstein statement(s) cited in the Georgetown letter could be interpreted as indicative of Holocaust denial. This would seem to obviate their argument that the description is debatable. It also strongly suggests they have invoked WP:POV and WP:NOR in bad faith.
I hope that others step in here and we can resolve the dispute in a sensible way, so as to avoid mediation and, at all costs, arbitration. -- G-Dett 17:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Jay.
1. Reading me the definition of OR, yet again, this time in italics, serves only the rhetorical purpose of making it seem that your argument and wikipedia policy are one and the same – my point, of course, is that they are not;
2. "As has been explained, this is an analysis of the content of the letter," etc. This is simply more argument by assertion, and as such has no value;
3. The comparison of the ADL's letter about Finkelstein with a hypothetical letter about David Irving is weirdly misguided, and I think it points quite precisely to what's misguided about your rationale for deleting the phrase in the first place. Irving, unlike Finkelstein, has denied the Holocaust and is therefore generally regarded as a Holocaust denier. There are no doubt thousands, probably tens of thousands of references to him as such in countless reliable sources, popular and scholarly. So yes, it would indeed be POV-pushing (as well as just plain weird) for Wikipedia to zero in on one such reference and indicate whether it levels its allegation in general or specific terms.
The situation with Finkelstein is totally different. Only a tiny minority of people believe he's a Holocaust denier; perhaps about as many as believe the earth is flat. There are only a handful of references to him as such in reliable sources, and even then only if we count as reliable sources publications like FrontPageMagazine. Virtually all of these references, moreover, cite the ADL as authority and merely repeat their allegation. To the best of my knowledge, no scholar in a peer-reviewed book or article has ever described Finkelstein as a Holocaust denier, or described his work as an example of Holocaust denial or Holocaust revisionism. It would be fair, indeed, to ask whether the ADL allegation even belongs in the article ( WP:NOR says that "The inclusion of a view that is held only by a tiny minority may constitute original research because there may be a lack of sufficiently credible, third-party, published sources to back it up"). Given the prominence and pedigree of the ADL, however, I think the answer would have to be yes, their accusation is noteworthy. But given its anomalousness (echoed as it is only by a few fringe figures in the popular press, and no scholars anywhere) it seems important to be clear about the nature of the accusation: What is cited as evidence? Is it advanced as an argument or referred to as consensus knowledge? Is it presented in general or specific terms? Etc.
In any case, it should be clear that the comparison you've set up is wholly inappropriate. An appropriate comparison would be if Abraham Foxman were invited to speak at a university, and NOW wrote to the university president in protest, describing Foxman as a "serial fondler and well-known date rapist." If that happened, I would think it would be OK for the Wikipedia article on Foxman to say, "In a letter to the president of X university, NOW described Foxman as a 'serial fondler and well-known date rapist,' without specifically citing alleged incidents or legal charges." Assuming that were the case, would you, Jay, object tenaciously to the latter clause as original research?-- G-Dett 21:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Jay, the Finkelstein/Irving comparison isn't inappropriate on account of what I find plausible or outrageous; it's inappropriate because Irving has been described as a Holocaust denier by countless credible writers in thousands of citable sources, popular as well as scholarly, whereas Finkelstein has only been called a Holocaust denier by the ADL and a few fringe writers writing in semi-reputable fora. That's why the comparison doesn't make any sense. It is the anomolousness (not the outrageousness) of the accusation in Finkelstein's case that makes it significant, worthy of special note in Wikipedia.
I appreciate your latest input as well as SlimVirgin's, but both of your responses continue to beg the question. The very thing we're disputing is whether saying the ADL's accusation was made in general rather than specific terms constitutes a "rebuttal" of their position, or a novel theory about it, or whatever. I and other editors don't think it does, and I've outlined at length why not. For your part, you don't demonstrate that it does; you just continue to take it is as a given.
Of course I think the ADL accusation is outrageous; Holocaust denial is serious, and phony accusations about it shouldn't be used as a weapon. But that is neither here nor there. Please credit me with an intelligent and informed respect for what Wikipedia is and is not. I don't think the Wikipedia article should reflect my outrage, or "rebut" the ADL claim, or anything of the sort. And I am certainly not asking for some sort of 'exception' to the NOR rule. Wikipedia regularly presents relevant, indisputable information about cited sources, and this is no exception.
As far as why Finkelstein hasn't taken out a libel suit, I think he follows his mentor Chomsky in being opposed to them in principle. He's one of these so-called "free speech absolutists," if I'm not mistaken.-- G-Dett 05:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with John K. Summary and paraphrase are routine on Wikipedia. It seems pretty clear that the agenda at work here is not in the deleted phrase itself but rather in the editor who keeps deleting it. -- Hiramhamilton 20:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
From non-reconsability of the positions stated above, the compromise or an agreement here seems an impossibility. I hope this can be resolved at some point when more editors attend the article. Until then, the disputed sections will remain tagged as such. The options as I see are:
However, until more people show up, I see no point in continuing this discussion. -- Irpen 18:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Speaking of sources. http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:ytScaEO-KNQJ:israel.georgetown.edu/ADL-letter.pdf+&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a is not opening for the obvious reasons. Frontpage is usually not considered WP:RS. Thus, we do not have any RS information about the content of the letter anyway. I guess if ADL pulled down the letter from the web there is something wrong with it. I propose to use WP:BLP and pull down the paragraph about the letter (and the tag) all together or at least put according to frontpage before it. abakharev 04:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The ADL neither published the letter online nor took it down. It was put up by Georgetown University, who has moved it to here: studentorgs.georgetown.edu/israel/ADL-letter.pdf. I'll fix the link accordingly.-- G-Dett 14:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe Finkelstein is a full tenured professor now, not an assistant professor. On his website, he posted a response by Alan Dershowitz to an article he wrote, and Dershowitz says that Finkelstein "is now up for tenure" at DePaul.
Yeah, I agree; I also checked his C.V. and it doesn't appear to have changed, so I guess if he is up for tenure, he's still undergoing that process. 152.23.84.168 17:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Why is there a section called "Finkelstein on David Irving and on numbers of Holocaust victims"? What do these two things have to do with one another? The information therein is OK, but packaging them together in this way, and with this kind of subtitle, is incredibly tendentious. Finkelstein passingly affirms consensus opinion about two different things, in two different contexts: 1) that David Irving is a "notorious" and "obtuse" Holocaust denier who was once a serious archival scholar; and 2) that he, Finkelstein, regards as definitive the three-volume historical account of the Nazi Holocaust by Raul Hilberg (described in his own Wikipedia article as "one of the best-known and most distinguished of genocide historians").
Bundling these two things together under this subtitle is multiply misleading: it suggests that his work is somehow related to Irving's, which it isn't; and it suggests that he has done his own research on the number of Holocaust victims, which he hasn't (he just cites a leading authority's account as definitive).
Let's get rid of the section, and assimilate the material elsewhere in the article. Maybe a new section called "Finkelstein and Allegations of Holocaust Denial." That's the implied subject of this section, as well as an explicit subject of the next.-- G-Dett 18:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
There is no way that Finkelstein can consider Hilberg definitive. Hilberg couldn't even - didn't try to - defend his own work in a courtroom cross examination. Finkelstein can't be that far out of the loop, I hope.
I'm glad you finally got the point aboout OR, [[User:G-Dett|G-Dett]. I think it's fair to say we can move on now, and pretend your rationalizations for your own OR regarding the ADL letter to Georgetown never happened. Isarig 01:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
An irony-free version, Isarig, if you're still lost in thought.
How does 'planting' an obvious case of one kind of OR (synthesizing, using source B to refute source A) settle a dispute about a different kind of OR (allegedly tendentious summary of single source A)? And how, for that matter, does planting irrelevant fake edits teach me to not "play little games"? How does following it up with a sort of triumphalist swagger, equal parts schoolmaster and bully ("I hope you have learned your lesson"), mingled with creepy endearments ("my dear"), set an example for how I can become "a better Wikipedian"?
To settle the earlier dispute in your favor, what you'd need to do is show that the summary is debatable (not "false," as you continue wilfully to misconstrue it). You never showed that; in fact you refused to try to show it, and it became quite clear that you were bluffing on an empty hand. Given the absurdity of your position (maintaining that a summary is debatable but refusing to say why), it's understandable that you should now wish to switch sides. I would even take heart in this, were it not so clear to me that you have not even understood the terms of the argument you lost.
To conclude, I want to pick up on something John K pointed out. The interpretation of OR variously advanced here by you, Jayjg, and SlimVirgin has been neither coherent nor compelling. What is coherent among the three of you is your ideological take on Israel/Palestine. By contrast, between myself, John K., Irpen, et al, there is no such ideological unity. We have, however, put forth a very detailed, cogent, and as of yet unanswered rebuttal to the spurious charge of original research. These distinctions are in themselves rather telling, in ways that anyone who's read this far into this debate will easily recognize.
You have gained your goal, not through serious negotiation or by winning an argument, but by organizing your ideological muscle as administrators. Big deal. Wikipedia will survive.-- G-Dett 15:19, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
"OR is OR" is about as nice an example as one could hope for of tautology (a common variant of which is known as begging the question). It has indeed been your key contribution here, as I've been pointing out for some time.
The dullness of the fool is the whetstone of the wit, says someone in As You Like It (Celia?). It's been fun, but there is such a thing as overhoning.-- G-Dett 17:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Welcome back, Rosencrantz.
Focus now: there is no Wikipedia rule about what editors want. There is no rule about intentions. If there were, someone would take a look at your 20,000 annual edits (by your count [25]), and you might well find yourself banned from making further contributions. As CJCurrie has pointed out [26], your prolific editing is not notable for its adherence to a single standard of Original Research. It is, however, ideologically consistent: taken together your tens of thousands of edits form the picture of a single-minded and truly epic undertaking, an awesome and impressively sustained POV-pushing effort. But NPOV applies to edits, not editors. Some of your edits have a coherent and compelling rationale; others, like the one we’ve discussed at length here, manifestly do not. That is all.
All are agreed that summarizing or paraphrasing a reliable source is standard practice in Wikipedia. All (I presume) would agree that summarizing is very different from, not “nearly identical” to, synthesis (defined as "A and B, therefore C"). Gildenstern’s irrelevant prank edit – after which he still wants me to assume his good faith [27] – is an example of the latter.
The issue with regards to the Georgetown letter was whether it was a fair summary to say that it leveled its accusation of Holocaust denial “in general terms,” or “without specifically citing statements of doubt or denial,” or “in passing,” etc. You and Gildenstern declared that none of these was a fair summary, while coyly refusing to say why. When pressed, you eventually mumbled something about how maybe the ADL has an idiosyncratic definition of Holocaust denial (and presumably therefore of the Holocaust itself) [28]. Given the transparent ridiculousness of your answer, I can well understand your chagrined reluctance to offer it in the first place.
Your partner has had the good sense to holler ‘nuff (“thrice” now). I suggest you follow his lead.-- G-Dett 01:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Come on, Jay. I've made you Shakespearean!-- G-Dett 02:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
At first I was enjoying this energetic discussion, but I am beginning to find the whole thing pointless and distasteful. G-Dett, comparing your opponents to waste matter and contemptible literary figures may give you a momentary thrill, but it does little to advance the discussion. We may not all be as erudite as you, but throwing out an insult and then compounding it by facetiously declaring it to be a compliment, is no way to treat people. I hardly need to point out that you have the intelligence and perspicacity to make a positive contribution to this community, but your disdain for those you have outsmarted is downright toxic. As for you, Isarig and Jayjg, employing chop-logic and misdirection in order to hold onto a line of argument that has been thoroughly discredited by an interlocutor reflects as badly on you as it does on our ability, as a community, to put aside ideological prejudices and adhere to the principles of wikipedia. Sorry for the sanctimony, but I think you should all be ashamed of yourselves. -- Hiramhamilton 04:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The last thing I wanted to do was invite G-Dett for another round of mischief-making at your expense. I think I'm as ready as you all are for her to put a cork in it. So please, help me by not setting her up.
Yes, you have many edits, Jayjg. As editors more sober than G-Dett have pointed out, they don't add up to a picture of impartiality. WP:NOR is a relatively simple rule. -- Hiramhamilton 02:52, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
If WP:NOR doesn't do justice to the subtlety of the rule it describes, then perhaps that page needs to be amended. Your application of the rule as it is currently defined is unconvincing. Setting aside your condescension, I hope we can move on to more productive matters. -- Hiramhamilton 20:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Why do the "Criticism of Finkelstein's scholarship" and "Finkelstein, the Anti-Defamation League, and the Allegation of Holocaust Denial" have NPOV tags on them? Criticism, by its very nature, are POV. I propose we remove both tags. -- GHcool 01:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
In the Post-Zionism article someone has listed Norman Finkelstein as a post-Zionist. There was no source listed. There is now a category for post zionists here Category:Post-Zionists. If someone finds a source for this, can you please add the category and describe him as such in the body of the article? Thanks. -- Deodar 14:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Finkelstein has suffered an extremely unpleasant slur on his mother, all the details and refutations of which are (rather unusually) available for all to see on the web.
Can anyone see any objection to a section like this:
"While Finkelstein likes to defend his own anti-Semitic ravings by claiming his parents are themselves Holocaust survivors, Dershowitz recently revealed that Finkelstein's mother was in fact a collaborator with German Nazis during the war."
"You’ve probably never heard of the author, unless you travel in neo-Nazi, radical Islamic or hard left circles. His name is Norman Finkelstein. Yes he is a Jew. His parents were even Holocaust survivors, though he suspects his mother of having been a kapo ("really, how else would she have survived?" he asks rhetorically)".
"The Jewish ghetto police always had the option, she said, of "throwing off their uniforms and joining the rest of us" – a point that Yitzak Zuckerman, a leader of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, made in his memoir. (It was always gratifying to find my mother's seemingly erratic or harsh judgments seconded in the reliable testimonial literature.) Still shaking her head in disbelief, she would often recall how, after Jews in the ghetto used the most primitive implements or even bare hands to dig bunkers deep in the earth and conceal themselves, the Jewish police would reveal these hideouts to the Germans, sending their flesh-and-blood to the crematoria in order to save their own skins. One of the first acts of the ghetto resistance was to kill an officer in the Jewish police. On a sign posted next to his corpse – my mother would recall with vengeful glee – read the epitaph: "Those who live like a dog die like a dog." Still, if she didn't cross fundamental moral boundaries, I glimpsed from her manner of pushing and shoving in order to get to the head of a queue, which mortified me, how my mother must have fought Hobbes's war of all against all many a time in the camps. Really, how else would she have survived?"
The only thing I object to is FrontPageMag's misleading statement that Dershowitz was the one that "revealed" this and presents the statement as fact. Instead of FrontPageMag, the document where Dershowitz first discussed this should be The Case For Peace (I own the book and can find the page number if necessary). -- GHcool 22:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
So we have a front page article alleging that Alan Dershowitz "revealed" that Finkelstein's mother was a collaborator. This is based on an Alan Dershowitz article in which he claims that Finkelstein suspects his mothers was a collaborator. This is based on a Finkelstein article where Dershowitz has taken a quote completely out of context, and Finkelstein never said anything of the kind. There is no basis for this claim, so far as I can tell. john k 22:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I think you have misread Finkelstein. He says, more or less "even if my mother did didn't cross fundamental moral boundaries, she must still have gotten really hard in the camps, or she wouldn't have been able to survive." He specifically notes her utter contempt for the kapos. What he is saying is that his mother didn't cross fundamental moral boundaries, but that she may have threaded the line, or else she wouldn't have been able to survive. But he specifically says she didn't cross those boundaries. john k 01:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
On the whole, this whole sorry incident is not an important thing about Finkelstein himself. It might be important for the article on the Finkelstein-Dershowitz affair that I believe exists, but given that it's basically just an entirely false insinuation more or less made up by Dershowitz, I don't see that it belongs here. john k 01:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I can't believe anyone would try to put such a smear of Finkelstein's mother in his article. Shall we also note that Finkelstein's ancestors are accused of killing Jesus Christ? Alan Dershowitz must be an extremely vile individual. -- DLH
PalestineRemembered, I quite agree with you that Dershowitz is playing a false game here. Finkelstein's portrait of his mother is all the more moving for its subtlety, and Dershowitz's attempt to exploit that subtlety for the tiniest ad hominem payoff amounts to a desecration, as well as a tawdry lie, and demonstrates quite vividly how phony his supposed reverence for Holocaust survivors is. But I agree with John K, GHCool and others that the whole sorry episode doesn't really belong here. I would also add that it doesn't do Finkelstein (whom I regard as a serious and courageous if masochistically tactless scholar) any favors to turn his whole Wikipedia article into a repository of Dershowitz's greatest hitjobs. I believe there is a page devoted just to the Finkelstein-Dershowitz affair; that might be a better home for the details of this particular libel.-- G-Dett 23:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there any dispute of his parents' status as holocaust survivors, or is this just an attempt to inject some POV doubt? Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 23:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I (and others) dispute that his parents were Holocaust survivors, based on what Finkelstein says about them. And since a great deal of his credibility is based on this claim, I think it is legitimate to label it for what it is -- "a claim".
Here are a few of the reasons I think it appropriate to characterize it as a claim:
1. Finkelstein talks about reparations paid to Holocaust survivors and seems not to know that all survivors, including HIS own parents and their children (including himself) were AUTOMATICALLY entitled to these payments under German law.
2. Finkelstein's mother is quoted as saying (by Finkelstein) that (and this is an approximate quote): "If there are so many survivors, whom did Hitler kill?". This is an extraordinary statement from someone who is really a survivor.
Thanks,
Robert E. Rubin Roberterubin 19:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)roberterubin
Anyway the entire article needs a thorough restructuring; the majority of it is pure quotes. This is an encyclopedia, not wikiquote. Night Gyr ( talk/ Oy) 21:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I have not seen any reliable source question Finkelstein's assertion that his parents were Holocaust survivors. Even Alan Dershowitz, who can hardly be described as an ally of Finkelstein, did not make this claim in the attack-piece he wrote about NF's mother a few months ago. Adding the word "claims" to this article is entirely inappropriate, and only serves to undermine his family history without due cause.
Concerning the two arguments you've provided, (i) I might be mis-remembering this, but I believe Finkelstein's parents received a payment from the German government many years ago, (ii) the approximate quote you've provided was a rhetorical question, not a serious argument. NF has argued that certain organizations inflated the number of still-living Holocaust *survivors* during the reparations debates of the 1990s (I hasten to add that he has never questioned the reality of the Holocaust itself). Perhaps his mother has making the same point. One way or the other, this does nothing to disprove his family history. Please do not return the word "claims" to this article.
I am adding no analysis. I am simply reflecting the fact that Finkelstein is the only source of information concerning whether or not his parents were Holocaust survivors. This fact, if it is a fact, is important because Finkelstein repeatedly cites it to lend credibility to his positions. I think it is legitimate to point out that the account he provides comes from him alone.
If I were to write a book claiming that the Apollo missions to the moon were a hoax and I also provided as part of my biography that my father worked at NASA, I think it would be legitimate to explore the source of that claim of a personal connection to NASA. I am not taking a position here on Finkelstein's arguments per se, only on the factual information in the article and the source thereof.
I will remove the word "claim". And substitute more neutral language. And I am certainly open to suggestions on what that language should be. But I don't agree that it is inappropriate to reflect the fact that a key point that Finkelstein relies on to bolster his own credibility has not been verified independently.
Thanks,
Roberterubin 23:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)robererubin
I am not drawing an analogy between Apollo and the Holocaust, I am drawing an analogy between someone making a controversial claim while claiming special credentials -- in a hypothetical case involving Apollo -- and doing the same thing with respect to the Holocaust. The analogy is between one claiming a special connection via family who worked at NASA versus a special connection through parents who were Holocaust survivors.
Finkelstein has repeatedly emphasized his connection to the Holocaust via his parents while making very controversial and strong statements about core aspects of the Holocaust and the role of the Jewish community with respect to it. It seems to me perfectly legitimate to reflect the fact in the article that this special connection exists only through his own account. That is a fact, plain and simple. I suggest language like "According to Finkelstein's account of his family and background, his parents were..." That implies nothing but the fact that this information comes from Finkelstein himself. Why don't we compromise on that? It is much weaker than "claims" or "according to" and implies no doubt or deception.
I can find nothing in Wikipedia's guidelines, as I read them, against this proposed edit.
Roberterubin 06:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)robererubin
I've also restored the praise and criticism sections. Until someone paraphrases the section, this should be left in place. CJCurrie 00:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Robert, I hope this [37] will resolve your doubts. Generally speaking, however (setting aside the fact that there's a New York Times article to settle the matter in this case), I think your suggestion – that Wikipedia should get in the business of independently verifying who is a genuine Holocaust survivor and who might be a fraud, and then inserting wording suggestive of our suspicions of survivor claims when our cursory, haphazard original research techniques turn up no indepedent verification of these – would be a very bad one even if it weren't impracticable, vulnerable to abuse, and a standing invitation to the worst kinds of OR, all of which things it obviously is.–-- G-Dett 19:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
HIS MOTHER - if she was in a death camp, then her statement( if true ) seems to say that she didn't know of/believe the death camp story.
Yaocihuatl has edited the Norman Finkelstein page, changing "son of Holocaust survivors" to "son of Auschwitz survivors". Only one of Finkelstein's parents was at Auschwitz, so the edit is incorrect. See the Biography section on www.normanfinkelstein.com. I will revert this change within one week. I have left this message on Yacihautl's talk page and invited him/her to email for discussion. Roberterubin 01:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
If his mother appears to question the holocaust after being in Auschwitz, how many other survivors question it?
I removed the following, which was placed under "Criticisms of Finkelstein's Scholarship":
Saying that someone is despicable, lies to promote his own agenda and has "a formal psychological syndrome" is not a critique of his scholarship -- it's an ad hominem attack. Nor is the fact that someone thinks an individual is truly "a member of... a freak show..." appropriate for an encyclopedia entry. Unless, of course, they are. But only if it's a notable freak show. OhSusanne 08:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
'Shoah Biz' Critic Claims His Views Cost Him Prof Job -> doesnt work forward.com is notorious for this, must be how they archive their pages
This article is not NPOV. It appears to be an advertisement for the subject. All those external links are not in proper Wikipedia formatting for citations. All the sources being linked need to be re-formatted into proper citation format, checked for notability and reliability; many probably need to be deleted as there needs to be a rationale for including them in an enclopedia entry. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources; Wikipedia:Cite and other editing policies. This does not read like an encyclopedia article. It looks like an alternate website for the subject. Finkelstein's own website is a commercial site advertising his own publications and career. This article needs a complete overhaul. Sample structure is: Introduction; Biographical facts (e.g. Personal or Family life); Wikiquote; Bibliography; Notes (including all those not yet formatted properly as citations); References; External links; See also. --NYScholar 10:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Many "appearances" ("Speaking engagements" from 2000 to 2007) are listed on the subject's own website, which is already linked in "External links" section.
The entire section below needs to be checked for notability and reliability of sources and re-formatted in proper bibliographical format; it should not be a section of external links. They need to be citations (and checked) with dates accessed. [It is possible that a reverse-chronological order would make more sense than alphabetical after this list is checked, verified, and finalized, if it is to be included at all. (updated) --NYScholar 14:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)]
Appearances
- Burlington, VT: Finkelstein on Hamas, current crisis, Lebanon, Hezbollah ( 30 September 2006)
- Finkelstein at Columbia University ( 8 March 2006)
- Debate with Fmr. Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami on Israel, the Palestinians, and the Peace Process (Democracy Now!) ( 14 February 2006)
- On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History by Norman G. Finkelstein, School of Oriental and African Studies, London, UK, 28 November 2005 and Resonance FM Radio, 9 December 2005
- Flashpoints (KPFA) radio interview ( 28 December 2005)
- Al Jazeera Interview ( 30 November 2005)
- BBC World Service Interview ( 29 November 2005)
- Georgetown: Finkelstein Speech Contributes to Debate (The Hoya) ( 22 November 2005)
- Israel-Palestine: Roots of Conflict, Paths to Peace ( 17 November 2005)
- Finkelstein at Yale University ( 20 October 2005)
- Harvard Law: Amicus Curiae: Justice for Palestine or Jew-Baiting? (The Record) ( 20 October 2005)
- Finkelstein interview transcript (WNUR 89.3 Chicago) ( 17 September 2005)
- Carnegie Mellon talk: Don't Tell Anyone! ( 14 March 2005)
- Academia Threatened (The Tartan, by CMU Faculty) ( 25 April 2005)
- SayWhat? Controversial speakers need to be reviewed (The Tartan) ( 26 September 2005)
- Committee to review at-issue speakers (The Tartan) ( 26 September 2005)
- Do we need another committee? (The Tartan) ( 26 September 2005)
- Heckling is hateful (The Tartan) ( 3 October 2005)
- Ali Abunimah responds (The Tartan) ( 3 October 2005)
- Vancouver Public Library ( 15 May 2004)
- Debate with Alan Dershowitz ( 24 September 2003)
- Population Transfer: Is Israel Considering Expelling Palestinians to Jordan Under Cover of Iraq War? ( 18 September 2002)
- Progressive roundtable ( 21 August 2002)
- Ariel Sharon Plans to Annex Half of the West Bank: A Debate On the History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and Zionism ( 23 April 2002)
- Is criticizing Israel anti-Semitic? A debate ( 16 April 2002)
- Restoring the Debt: Descendents of Slaves File for Reparations From US Corporations That Profited From Slavery ( 28 March 2002)
- The Holocaust Industry ( 13 July 2000)
- German Government Announces Deal On Compensation for Former Jewish Slave Laborers ( 17 December 1999)
- Process Begins for Distributing Holocaust Reparations ( 1 December 1998)
- Palestinian Leader Arafat Visits Washington ( 1 December 1998)
All these so-called "appearances" and so-called "debates" need to be sorted out; some are "interviews" and need to be re-formatted as entries in a bibliography as such and placed in either the new section including "interviews with" or a new subsection for "interviews" can be developed. The so-called "debate" with Dershowitz is actually a joint interview conducted by Amy Goodman; whereas Finkelstein calls it a "debate" on his website and elsewhere, he knows that Dershowitz does not and that Dershowitz has refused to "debate" him. --NYScholar 10:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
If the material is already listed on Finkelstein's own Curriculum vitae, that CV is linked in "External links" and there is no rationale for listing the items already on it separately in an encyclopedia article such as this one is supposed to be. If the items are already listed on his commercial website, say at Upcoming (and past) speaking engagements, there is no need to list them here (again). --NYScholar 10:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand why there is a section on the extreme right supporting Finkelstein. There could be as well a section on the extreme left supporting finkelstein. Or the moderate right. Or the moderate left. Or a section on "Hilberg supports Finkelstein". Shouldn't all these opinions just be put together in a section on "repercussion of his work"? It would be nice to say, as well, out of fairness, that Finkelstein has in more than one occasion, manifested absolute distance of these groups (explicitly extreme-right and holocaust deniers).-- Ninarosa 07:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC) Fine, then we should integrate the quotations into the rececption of his work section. -Bloon
This appears serious, see: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/arts/12tenu.html Involves Middle East Studies Association of North America and others now. (Also this talk page really needs to have some of its material archived. It is incredibly long.) --64.230.127.125 08:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Jay, how have you determined that Finkelstein is not a scholar of antisemitism?-- G-Dett 18:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi guys! Could somebody here please add our Scots Wikipedia article on the subject to your page along with the other versions? Thanx:} ممتاز 22:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC) http://sco.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein ممتاز 22:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)