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Non-vegetarian food in India article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This article seems to be written with a propaganda against vegetarianism and doesn't suggest the meaning of non-vegetarianism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.14.130 ( talk) 19:07, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
J mareeswaran ( talk) 08:57, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
This article can be renamed as view of meat eating in Hindu cultural traditions? J mareeswaran ( talk) 14:44, 20 January 2018 (UTC) J mareeswaran ( talk) 14:44, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
Hi Nonwiktion, I'd like to avoid an edit war with you. Here is my reasoning for defining nonvegetarian as "someone who eats meat" instead of "someone who does not abstain from eating meat".
It seems like you feel strongly about the use of the word nonvegetarian in the Indian context. But Wikipedia is no place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, but to present information in a neutral, simple ( WP:MOS: "Since using plain English makes the encyclopedia easier and more intuitive to read, editors should avoid ambiguity, jargon, and vague or unnecessarily complex wording"), and verifiable way. ⠀Trimton⠀ 21:44, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
Hi Trimton, thanks for initiating a talk about this. Here's my reasoning:
Therefore, I believe defining non-vegetarian as the practice of "not abstaining from meat" makes more sense. Remember that the word non-vegetarian is dependent entirely on the word "vegetarian" and hence must have a definition that explicitly negates the definition of "vegetarian". Nonwiktion ( talk) 05:27, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Venkat TL: Can you point out where it says that, because I can't find it. (Referring to 3rd bullet point in "In Popular Usage" section)
@ Venkat TL: I don't see any source saying that it originated in Indian English. But even if it did, as long as it's used outside of Indian English, it can't just be called an "Indian English" term. The statement that it's an Indian English word inherently implies that it's not used outside of Indian English.
This page, though named as if it is worldwide, applies to the term "non-vegetarian" in India alone.
The page started out in 2012 as a link to the Wiktionary definition of "nonvegetarian". Even today, googling for "non-vegetarian" gets you pages of dictionary definitions as search results, rather than articles.
Someone started to edit this article six years later — coincidentally the same day as the publishing in Indian online magazine
DailyO of
an essay on January 19, 2018 titled "'Non-vegetarian' is the biggest casteist scam that has ever been pulled on Indians" in which the author moaned "At the time of drafting this article, Wikipedia does not even have an entry for the phrase 'non-vegetarian'"
, accompanied by a screenshot of the then-extant
June 12, 2017 version of this article from Wikipedia.
The first appearance of any citations occurred the following day and included the DailyO essay (the only original citation surviving today), then follows a series of edits from India-article-focused editors and IP editors geolocated to India, all fighting over content for the following 10 days.
On February 2, 2018, the article finally lost its Template:Wiktionary redirect. [1]
The article continued to gain citations and be contentious amongst editors (mostly Indian). A few months ago a non-Indian editor, perhaps not realizing this is an Indian-based essay, again took up the fight to remove the phrase "is an
Indian English word
" from the opening sentence.
Starting here and continuing over several months, gathering a few more editors along the way, they have tried to downplay the original DailyO essay — presumably to give the article a more worldwide view and be less India-focused.
Until this article is renamed to make it clear that this article is about an Indian issue, it will continue to attract non-Indian editors (vegetarian or non-vegetarian) to try to co-opt the article for a worldwide viewpoint. Please stop the edit warring and discuss whether to rename the article (and to what) or to open it up for a worldwide viewpoint and compartmentalize the India issue under appropriate section headers.
My opinion is that this article should be renamed — and the original link to Wiktionary stub be recreated back under the title "Non-vegetarian" under the reasoning that we have an article for vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism is simply its opposite or counterpoint. (It can then grow into a worldwide-view article if that is needed.)
Platonk ( talk) 19:05, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
Padati, You have been reverted once. Stop edit warring. Discuss your edits on the talk page. Venkat TL ( talk) 06:28, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
References
Greetings,
Though I came from 3rd opinion request board but I would not be touching that since English language grammar and Manual of style for Wikipedia articles are not my forte.
I am leaving a note here because I was not clear about certain things about the article.
Thanks
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 09:54, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Femkemilene: Since already you seem to have gone through the article at least a little, I would request your at least preliminary input what will be more suitable article title for this article or let that be as is? Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 06:47, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
If at all article wants capture Veg and Non Veg debate too then let that be more nuanced coverage, for example, to my knowledge in India many regularly non vegetarian people too compromise with non vegetarian and follow vegetarian for certain days weeks or months as part of religious obligation etc. Some of such people seem to have special Non vegetarian days before starting Vegetarian weeks and after completion of Vegetarian weeks. And these people might follow as pure vegetarianism as those people follow pure vegetarianism through out the life.
Present sourcing from Daily opinion describes all vegetarian as 'poor choices' but where one would put those people who are vegetarian on certain days.
Secondly restaurant name plate describing 'pure veg' are their to attract people who are on 'pure veg' diet. In my studies I have not come across any Indian law or social practice that makes mandatory on Non Vegetarian restaurants to declare so through their name plates so. Non vegeterian restaurants may be declaring on name boards so since they might wish to attract non vegetarian customers. Nothing wrong in criticism even strong one but let that be more nuanced and from balanced credible sources like journals books etc. not just sources interested in criticism of criticism sake.
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 10:43, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Greetings @ Venkat TL,
IDK MoS about using Indic language synonyms for term the 'Non-vegetarian' in the article. But what I suggest is to have a list of Indic synonyms at least here on the talk page which will help searching and cross checking various RS vis a vis Indic languages whenever required in future.
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 17:39, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
An input request about 'Indian Non-vegetarian food culture' @ WP:DUE Bookku ( talk) 07:58, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Please note in Indian context vegetarians are Lactarians and vegetarianism refers strictly to Lacto vegetarianism J mareeswaran ( talk) 18:05, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Non-vegetarian food in India article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is written in Indian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, analysed, defence) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article seems to be written with a propaganda against vegetarianism and doesn't suggest the meaning of non-vegetarianism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.14.130 ( talk) 19:07, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
J mareeswaran ( talk) 08:57, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
This article can be renamed as view of meat eating in Hindu cultural traditions? J mareeswaran ( talk) 14:44, 20 January 2018 (UTC) J mareeswaran ( talk) 14:44, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
Hi Nonwiktion, I'd like to avoid an edit war with you. Here is my reasoning for defining nonvegetarian as "someone who eats meat" instead of "someone who does not abstain from eating meat".
It seems like you feel strongly about the use of the word nonvegetarian in the Indian context. But Wikipedia is no place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, but to present information in a neutral, simple ( WP:MOS: "Since using plain English makes the encyclopedia easier and more intuitive to read, editors should avoid ambiguity, jargon, and vague or unnecessarily complex wording"), and verifiable way. ⠀Trimton⠀ 21:44, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
Hi Trimton, thanks for initiating a talk about this. Here's my reasoning:
Therefore, I believe defining non-vegetarian as the practice of "not abstaining from meat" makes more sense. Remember that the word non-vegetarian is dependent entirely on the word "vegetarian" and hence must have a definition that explicitly negates the definition of "vegetarian". Nonwiktion ( talk) 05:27, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Venkat TL: Can you point out where it says that, because I can't find it. (Referring to 3rd bullet point in "In Popular Usage" section)
@ Venkat TL: I don't see any source saying that it originated in Indian English. But even if it did, as long as it's used outside of Indian English, it can't just be called an "Indian English" term. The statement that it's an Indian English word inherently implies that it's not used outside of Indian English.
This page, though named as if it is worldwide, applies to the term "non-vegetarian" in India alone.
The page started out in 2012 as a link to the Wiktionary definition of "nonvegetarian". Even today, googling for "non-vegetarian" gets you pages of dictionary definitions as search results, rather than articles.
Someone started to edit this article six years later — coincidentally the same day as the publishing in Indian online magazine
DailyO of
an essay on January 19, 2018 titled "'Non-vegetarian' is the biggest casteist scam that has ever been pulled on Indians" in which the author moaned "At the time of drafting this article, Wikipedia does not even have an entry for the phrase 'non-vegetarian'"
, accompanied by a screenshot of the then-extant
June 12, 2017 version of this article from Wikipedia.
The first appearance of any citations occurred the following day and included the DailyO essay (the only original citation surviving today), then follows a series of edits from India-article-focused editors and IP editors geolocated to India, all fighting over content for the following 10 days.
On February 2, 2018, the article finally lost its Template:Wiktionary redirect. [1]
The article continued to gain citations and be contentious amongst editors (mostly Indian). A few months ago a non-Indian editor, perhaps not realizing this is an Indian-based essay, again took up the fight to remove the phrase "is an
Indian English word
" from the opening sentence.
Starting here and continuing over several months, gathering a few more editors along the way, they have tried to downplay the original DailyO essay — presumably to give the article a more worldwide view and be less India-focused.
Until this article is renamed to make it clear that this article is about an Indian issue, it will continue to attract non-Indian editors (vegetarian or non-vegetarian) to try to co-opt the article for a worldwide viewpoint. Please stop the edit warring and discuss whether to rename the article (and to what) or to open it up for a worldwide viewpoint and compartmentalize the India issue under appropriate section headers.
My opinion is that this article should be renamed — and the original link to Wiktionary stub be recreated back under the title "Non-vegetarian" under the reasoning that we have an article for vegetarianism and non-vegetarianism is simply its opposite or counterpoint. (It can then grow into a worldwide-view article if that is needed.)
Platonk ( talk) 19:05, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
Padati, You have been reverted once. Stop edit warring. Discuss your edits on the talk page. Venkat TL ( talk) 06:28, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
References
Greetings,
Though I came from 3rd opinion request board but I would not be touching that since English language grammar and Manual of style for Wikipedia articles are not my forte.
I am leaving a note here because I was not clear about certain things about the article.
Thanks
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 09:54, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
@ Femkemilene: Since already you seem to have gone through the article at least a little, I would request your at least preliminary input what will be more suitable article title for this article or let that be as is? Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 06:47, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
If at all article wants capture Veg and Non Veg debate too then let that be more nuanced coverage, for example, to my knowledge in India many regularly non vegetarian people too compromise with non vegetarian and follow vegetarian for certain days weeks or months as part of religious obligation etc. Some of such people seem to have special Non vegetarian days before starting Vegetarian weeks and after completion of Vegetarian weeks. And these people might follow as pure vegetarianism as those people follow pure vegetarianism through out the life.
Present sourcing from Daily opinion describes all vegetarian as 'poor choices' but where one would put those people who are vegetarian on certain days.
Secondly restaurant name plate describing 'pure veg' are their to attract people who are on 'pure veg' diet. In my studies I have not come across any Indian law or social practice that makes mandatory on Non Vegetarian restaurants to declare so through their name plates so. Non vegeterian restaurants may be declaring on name boards so since they might wish to attract non vegetarian customers. Nothing wrong in criticism even strong one but let that be more nuanced and from balanced credible sources like journals books etc. not just sources interested in criticism of criticism sake.
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 10:43, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
Greetings @ Venkat TL,
IDK MoS about using Indic language synonyms for term the 'Non-vegetarian' in the article. But what I suggest is to have a list of Indic synonyms at least here on the talk page which will help searching and cross checking various RS vis a vis Indic languages whenever required in future.
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 17:39, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
An input request about 'Indian Non-vegetarian food culture' @ WP:DUE Bookku ( talk) 07:58, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Please note in Indian context vegetarians are Lactarians and vegetarianism refers strictly to Lacto vegetarianism J mareeswaran ( talk) 18:05, 16 November 2022 (UTC)