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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
... that the
Nizaris (Assassins) managed to disrupt their superior opponent, the
Seljuk Empire, through effective use of
assassination? Source: "The Nizari were a weak and relatively isolated group who could not confront the might of the Seljuk Empire and its allies directly, but in assassination they found an effective tool for disrupting the empire."
[1]
Unfortunately, the article fails the
supplementary criterion D7, completeness. There are several 'expand section' tags, and one section that is entirely missing. Until this is dealt with, the article is disqualified from the front page; even in the event this is rectified, it would fail the time constraint for DYK.
Constantine ā 17:02, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Actually, although a great deal of work is needed to satisfy D7, since the nomination has already been made within the seven days as required, the DYK time criterion is satisfied. The work should be done as soon as possible.
BlueMoonset (
talk)
14:27, 19 July 2020 (UTC)reply
ALT1: ... that the minority
Nizaris (Assassins) of medieval Persia disrupted their superior adversaries by effective use of strongholds and
assassination? ("socio-political power in the SaljÅ«q empire had come to be increasingly localized ... the strategy best suited to the objectives of a revolutionary movement had also to be decentralized. The Persian IsmÄ ļæ½ Ä±ĢlıĢs adopted precisely such a piecemeal strategy ... there scarcely existed a major or central target ... Consequently, the NizÄrıĢ strategy was based on the seizure of a host of strongholds ... so as to overwhelm the existing decentralized socio-political structure from within." Source: Daftary (2007), p.327)
@
ZxxZxxZ: Hmmm, I remain unconvinced, unfortunately. The article appears complete, content-wise, but even for me, who am somewhat knowledgeable on the subject, it is heavy going trying to read it. The prose needs extensive copyediting for grammar and typos, but more than that, the context is very poorly presented. Just a couple of examples out of many, you introduce terms and events (the Ilkhanate, the Mongol invasions) in the "Sources" section that are unlinked and unfamiliar to the vast majority of our readers, and in the 'The participants and the nature of the conflicts', where you should introduce just who the Nizaris and Seljuks are and why they were fighting, you write of a 'simple Nizari vs Seljuk [conflict]' as if readers are familiar with it. If I were to review this for GA, for example, the list of corrections, remarks and suggestions for improvement would be very long. Technically nothing in the DYK rules states anything about the article quality, but there is an unstated assumption that it should be well-written; after all, the aim of a DYK article is to get readers to read it and learn something new, and for me, at the present state, the article is frankly off-putting. I strongly recommend that you request a copyedit at
WP:GOCE and then submit it either for a peer review and/or a GA review, pinging the
Military History project for assistance by experienced editors. Then you can resubmit for DYK based on the eligibility of recent GAs. Added to the previous concerns, I object to the renaming of the article to "IsmailiāSeljuk conflicts", because the article does not cover the Fatimids' conflict with the Seljuks at all.
Constantine ā 16:16, 2 August 2020 (UTC)reply
I myself believe the most important problem is the prose, I was just unsure how bad it was. This is a broad subject and needs a lot of work to be an acceptable article; the GA route is probably a good idea. I hereby withdraw this nomination to make a new one in the future.
Regarding the title, I'm still thinking about a proper title (I'm also considering expanding the scope of the article to include conflicts with the succeeding
Khwarezmian Empire as well). The "Nizari" in "Nizari-Seljuk" was an imperfect word since the revolt took place before the Nziari-Musta'li Schism, i.e. at a time when there was no such thing as a Nizari, and those Isamilis were actually subordinate to the Fatimids, although this subordination was practically limited at that stage. --Z14:27, 5 August 2020 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The lead does not properly describe the subject. For one, it should introduce the subject as "The NizariāSeljuk conflicts refer to the wars and conflicts between the
Nizari IsmailiShi'as and the
SunniSeljuk Empire between 1090 and 1194." or something along these lines. Other than the introductory sentence, the lead needs to be expanded to summarize the article. Stylistically, passages should be more than one sentence or two, as is the current case. Also, please remove all duplicate links, which you can find via the 'Highlight duplicate links' tool in the right sidebar.
The references sections currently contains both citations to sources but also several footnotes, which should be in a separate section called 'Notes' or 'Footnotes'. Also, while GAN does not require consistent formatting of sources, I highly recommend you apply a single style by adding all the book and journal sources to a Bibliography section, the Daftary 2007 sources, which is just 'hanging' in the References section without a proper home. 80 out of 135 citations (rough count) are to Daftary 2007 (~60%), which should be OK for GA, but recommend further diversification of sources.
Regarding "The Ismailis in Persia, and by extension, Da'i Hassan-i Sabbah were already aware of the declining power of the Fatimids.[4] During his nine years of activity in service of the Fatimid da'wah in different parts of Persia, Hassan had evaluated the strengths and the weaknesses of the Seljuk military and government." Needs some dating: when were they already aware of the Fatimid decline? And specify the "nine years of activity".
Are Rudbar and Alamut interchangeable names for the same place. If so, any reason why articles uses both terms throughout? If they refer to separate places, then define Rudbar, since currently it just links to
Alamut.
The caption for the image depicting the assassination of Nizam al-Mulk contains specific information not found in the article. Either add a citation to the caption or better still, add the content to the article text itself.
Introduce Juwayni.
For historic regions like Egypt and Iraq that are also modern countries, links should directed to articles covering the historical region, as in
Egypt in the Middle Ages and
Medieval Iraq (or
Lower Mesopotamia), etc.
The sentence beginning "The Nizaris failed to establish ..." needs a citation.
Who are the
Banu Ulaym? Does this refer to the branch of the
Kalb tribe?
That's plausible, but unfortunately, my source (Daftary) does not provide any information about this name other than the strict transliteration (which makes the Arabic term ŲØŁŁ Ų¹ŁŁŁ ), so I'm not sure. I remove the wikilink for now. --Z18:54, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I couldn't find any information about it in The Eagle's Nest. It is possibly unlocated, which is understandable since it was a small castle that was demolished already in 12th century. --Z18:54, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Were the local hostile tribes in
Wadi al-Taym Druze? If so, mention this; if not or unclear, then ignore.
It mentions the name of the tribal chief (Baraq ibn Jandal and his brother Dahhak ibn Jandal) and that the population was mixed, but does not specify further. --Z13:09, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Can you identify "the prefect and the military governor of Damascus"? Is this one person or two people?
"The Nizari resistance amazed their adversary" should be reworded for objectivity.
Please clarify: "The nature of NizariāSeljuk relations gradually changed in this period: the ultimate Nizari aims were no longer renounced, but their subversion in inner Seljuk territories was halted and they began to consolidate the remote territories they held instead." what are the "ultimate Nizari aims"? The Seljuks were no longer renouncing these aims? Is renouncing the intended word? What is "their subversion in inner Seljuk territories"?
The heading of this section includes "recognization of the Nizari state". First, recommend replacing "recognization" with "tacit recognition", or just "Stalemate".
Specify the final years of Hassan-i-Sabbah (when he did he die).
Define "local support". Locals from Alamut?
"At the end of Buzurg-Ummid's reign ..." Specify when his reign ended.
Why did the Nizaris of Alamut rejoice at the assassination of al-Mustarshid? Did he oppress them or was it because he was the official head of the Sunni caliphate?
Were the attempts to penetrate Ghur successful or unsuccessful?
Regarding "... shortly after the toppling of the Fatimids by
Saladin six years earlier." Was this related to the Nizari assassination of the Abbasid vizier? Otherwise, there is no demonstrable relevance to this sentence and the fall of the Fatimids should be mentioned separately or elsewhere in the article. Also, "six years" should not be described as "shortly after".
Are the Zengids and other Turkish atabegs in Syria and Mosul being defined as Seljuks or their offshoots in this article? The relationship, if any, between them and the Seljuks should be explained briefly for context. If there is no relationship, then might need to rethink the whole "Nizari foothold in Jabal Bahra', Syria" section and its place and whether it belongs in this article.
"Hassan-i Sabbah's objective was not realized" What was his objective?
Who is Rukn al-Din?
Who is "Mar'ashi"?
Define the "many lands"
"These are attributed ..." Who attributes? Daftary? Modern historians?
"the genius of their early leaders" In wikivoice this is not objective language; suggest quoting and attributing to source or revising.
"total dedication to their ultimate ideal", again what is their ultimate ideal? The article does not define it anywhere.
For consistency, use either digits or spell out centuries, i.e. fourteenth century or 14th century.
In general, define the reigns of all Fatimid and Abbasid caliphs, Seljuk sultans, and the Nizari chief da'is.
Sourcing
Need complete citation information (i.e. original publication year/date not just access date) for the Iranica articles for Refs #3 (B. Hourcade), #34 (Daftary), #100 (B. Hourcade)
Need full page numbers for Ref #10 (Lewis).
Does Ref #30 have a specific author?
Need English translation for the titles of the Persian-language works cited in article (Ref #39, #67, #74). I am taking on good faith that they are reliable sources, since I cannot verify personally.
Fodor's Israel is a travel book/guide, not appropriate for a history article.
Need a full citation for Ref #79, which should be a footnote in any case.
Al Ameer,
ZxxZxxZ, what is the status of this nomination? It has been over six weeks since the review was posted, and no edits have been made to article since then to address the issues raised. Thank you.
BlueMoonset (
talk)
14:19, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
@
BlueMoonset: This slipped from the radar. If
ZxxZxxZ has been inactive or semi-active but wishes to continue with this nomination, I am happy to continue as well. Can we give the nominator another few days or a week to respond?
Al Ameer (
talk)
14:54, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Hi everybody, I'm sorry for the late responce. I'm looking at the issues right now, and trying to estimate how long it takes to fix them. If you give me a couple of days, I'll see if I can finish it or not. --Z15:04, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, one of the issues was make all the citations to Bernard Lewis more precise by mentioning the page number, but unfortunately, I no longer have access to that book, so I'm unable to fix it. --Z19:22, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
ZxxZxxZ: Thanks for taking care of some of the points above, especially in regard to the referencing; however, most of the points have not yet been addressed. If you believe you can tackle these under the current review, please provide an idea as to how long you will need. If it's more than a another 2 weeks, I'd suggest we close this review and re-nominate at a later time. Regards
Al Ameer (
talk)
15:54, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, I suggest closing this review, until I or another editor open it again in the future. Regards --Z15:20, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
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Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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join the project where you can contribute to the
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open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iraq, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Iraq on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Turkey and
related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
... that the
Nizaris (Assassins) managed to disrupt their superior opponent, the
Seljuk Empire, through effective use of
assassination? Source: "The Nizari were a weak and relatively isolated group who could not confront the might of the Seljuk Empire and its allies directly, but in assassination they found an effective tool for disrupting the empire."
[1]
Unfortunately, the article fails the
supplementary criterion D7, completeness. There are several 'expand section' tags, and one section that is entirely missing. Until this is dealt with, the article is disqualified from the front page; even in the event this is rectified, it would fail the time constraint for DYK.
Constantine ā 17:02, 12 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Actually, although a great deal of work is needed to satisfy D7, since the nomination has already been made within the seven days as required, the DYK time criterion is satisfied. The work should be done as soon as possible.
BlueMoonset (
talk)
14:27, 19 July 2020 (UTC)reply
ALT1: ... that the minority
Nizaris (Assassins) of medieval Persia disrupted their superior adversaries by effective use of strongholds and
assassination? ("socio-political power in the SaljÅ«q empire had come to be increasingly localized ... the strategy best suited to the objectives of a revolutionary movement had also to be decentralized. The Persian IsmÄ ļæ½ Ä±ĢlıĢs adopted precisely such a piecemeal strategy ... there scarcely existed a major or central target ... Consequently, the NizÄrıĢ strategy was based on the seizure of a host of strongholds ... so as to overwhelm the existing decentralized socio-political structure from within." Source: Daftary (2007), p.327)
@
ZxxZxxZ: Hmmm, I remain unconvinced, unfortunately. The article appears complete, content-wise, but even for me, who am somewhat knowledgeable on the subject, it is heavy going trying to read it. The prose needs extensive copyediting for grammar and typos, but more than that, the context is very poorly presented. Just a couple of examples out of many, you introduce terms and events (the Ilkhanate, the Mongol invasions) in the "Sources" section that are unlinked and unfamiliar to the vast majority of our readers, and in the 'The participants and the nature of the conflicts', where you should introduce just who the Nizaris and Seljuks are and why they were fighting, you write of a 'simple Nizari vs Seljuk [conflict]' as if readers are familiar with it. If I were to review this for GA, for example, the list of corrections, remarks and suggestions for improvement would be very long. Technically nothing in the DYK rules states anything about the article quality, but there is an unstated assumption that it should be well-written; after all, the aim of a DYK article is to get readers to read it and learn something new, and for me, at the present state, the article is frankly off-putting. I strongly recommend that you request a copyedit at
WP:GOCE and then submit it either for a peer review and/or a GA review, pinging the
Military History project for assistance by experienced editors. Then you can resubmit for DYK based on the eligibility of recent GAs. Added to the previous concerns, I object to the renaming of the article to "IsmailiāSeljuk conflicts", because the article does not cover the Fatimids' conflict with the Seljuks at all.
Constantine ā 16:16, 2 August 2020 (UTC)reply
I myself believe the most important problem is the prose, I was just unsure how bad it was. This is a broad subject and needs a lot of work to be an acceptable article; the GA route is probably a good idea. I hereby withdraw this nomination to make a new one in the future.
Regarding the title, I'm still thinking about a proper title (I'm also considering expanding the scope of the article to include conflicts with the succeeding
Khwarezmian Empire as well). The "Nizari" in "Nizari-Seljuk" was an imperfect word since the revolt took place before the Nziari-Musta'li Schism, i.e. at a time when there was no such thing as a Nizari, and those Isamilis were actually subordinate to the Fatimids, although this subordination was practically limited at that stage. --Z14:27, 5 August 2020 (UTC)reply
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The lead does not properly describe the subject. For one, it should introduce the subject as "The NizariāSeljuk conflicts refer to the wars and conflicts between the
Nizari IsmailiShi'as and the
SunniSeljuk Empire between 1090 and 1194." or something along these lines. Other than the introductory sentence, the lead needs to be expanded to summarize the article. Stylistically, passages should be more than one sentence or two, as is the current case. Also, please remove all duplicate links, which you can find via the 'Highlight duplicate links' tool in the right sidebar.
The references sections currently contains both citations to sources but also several footnotes, which should be in a separate section called 'Notes' or 'Footnotes'. Also, while GAN does not require consistent formatting of sources, I highly recommend you apply a single style by adding all the book and journal sources to a Bibliography section, the Daftary 2007 sources, which is just 'hanging' in the References section without a proper home. 80 out of 135 citations (rough count) are to Daftary 2007 (~60%), which should be OK for GA, but recommend further diversification of sources.
Regarding "The Ismailis in Persia, and by extension, Da'i Hassan-i Sabbah were already aware of the declining power of the Fatimids.[4] During his nine years of activity in service of the Fatimid da'wah in different parts of Persia, Hassan had evaluated the strengths and the weaknesses of the Seljuk military and government." Needs some dating: when were they already aware of the Fatimid decline? And specify the "nine years of activity".
Are Rudbar and Alamut interchangeable names for the same place. If so, any reason why articles uses both terms throughout? If they refer to separate places, then define Rudbar, since currently it just links to
Alamut.
The caption for the image depicting the assassination of Nizam al-Mulk contains specific information not found in the article. Either add a citation to the caption or better still, add the content to the article text itself.
Introduce Juwayni.
For historic regions like Egypt and Iraq that are also modern countries, links should directed to articles covering the historical region, as in
Egypt in the Middle Ages and
Medieval Iraq (or
Lower Mesopotamia), etc.
The sentence beginning "The Nizaris failed to establish ..." needs a citation.
Who are the
Banu Ulaym? Does this refer to the branch of the
Kalb tribe?
That's plausible, but unfortunately, my source (Daftary) does not provide any information about this name other than the strict transliteration (which makes the Arabic term ŲØŁŁ Ų¹ŁŁŁ ), so I'm not sure. I remove the wikilink for now. --Z18:54, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
I couldn't find any information about it in The Eagle's Nest. It is possibly unlocated, which is understandable since it was a small castle that was demolished already in 12th century. --Z18:54, 12 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Were the local hostile tribes in
Wadi al-Taym Druze? If so, mention this; if not or unclear, then ignore.
It mentions the name of the tribal chief (Baraq ibn Jandal and his brother Dahhak ibn Jandal) and that the population was mixed, but does not specify further. --Z13:09, 14 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Can you identify "the prefect and the military governor of Damascus"? Is this one person or two people?
"The Nizari resistance amazed their adversary" should be reworded for objectivity.
Please clarify: "The nature of NizariāSeljuk relations gradually changed in this period: the ultimate Nizari aims were no longer renounced, but their subversion in inner Seljuk territories was halted and they began to consolidate the remote territories they held instead." what are the "ultimate Nizari aims"? The Seljuks were no longer renouncing these aims? Is renouncing the intended word? What is "their subversion in inner Seljuk territories"?
The heading of this section includes "recognization of the Nizari state". First, recommend replacing "recognization" with "tacit recognition", or just "Stalemate".
Specify the final years of Hassan-i-Sabbah (when he did he die).
Define "local support". Locals from Alamut?
"At the end of Buzurg-Ummid's reign ..." Specify when his reign ended.
Why did the Nizaris of Alamut rejoice at the assassination of al-Mustarshid? Did he oppress them or was it because he was the official head of the Sunni caliphate?
Were the attempts to penetrate Ghur successful or unsuccessful?
Regarding "... shortly after the toppling of the Fatimids by
Saladin six years earlier." Was this related to the Nizari assassination of the Abbasid vizier? Otherwise, there is no demonstrable relevance to this sentence and the fall of the Fatimids should be mentioned separately or elsewhere in the article. Also, "six years" should not be described as "shortly after".
Are the Zengids and other Turkish atabegs in Syria and Mosul being defined as Seljuks or their offshoots in this article? The relationship, if any, between them and the Seljuks should be explained briefly for context. If there is no relationship, then might need to rethink the whole "Nizari foothold in Jabal Bahra', Syria" section and its place and whether it belongs in this article.
"Hassan-i Sabbah's objective was not realized" What was his objective?
Who is Rukn al-Din?
Who is "Mar'ashi"?
Define the "many lands"
"These are attributed ..." Who attributes? Daftary? Modern historians?
"the genius of their early leaders" In wikivoice this is not objective language; suggest quoting and attributing to source or revising.
"total dedication to their ultimate ideal", again what is their ultimate ideal? The article does not define it anywhere.
For consistency, use either digits or spell out centuries, i.e. fourteenth century or 14th century.
In general, define the reigns of all Fatimid and Abbasid caliphs, Seljuk sultans, and the Nizari chief da'is.
Sourcing
Need complete citation information (i.e. original publication year/date not just access date) for the Iranica articles for Refs #3 (B. Hourcade), #34 (Daftary), #100 (B. Hourcade)
Need full page numbers for Ref #10 (Lewis).
Does Ref #30 have a specific author?
Need English translation for the titles of the Persian-language works cited in article (Ref #39, #67, #74). I am taking on good faith that they are reliable sources, since I cannot verify personally.
Fodor's Israel is a travel book/guide, not appropriate for a history article.
Need a full citation for Ref #79, which should be a footnote in any case.
Al Ameer,
ZxxZxxZ, what is the status of this nomination? It has been over six weeks since the review was posted, and no edits have been made to article since then to address the issues raised. Thank you.
BlueMoonset (
talk)
14:19, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
@
BlueMoonset: This slipped from the radar. If
ZxxZxxZ has been inactive or semi-active but wishes to continue with this nomination, I am happy to continue as well. Can we give the nominator another few days or a week to respond?
Al Ameer (
talk)
14:54, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Hi everybody, I'm sorry for the late responce. I'm looking at the issues right now, and trying to estimate how long it takes to fix them. If you give me a couple of days, I'll see if I can finish it or not. --Z15:04, 11 May 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, one of the issues was make all the citations to Bernard Lewis more precise by mentioning the page number, but unfortunately, I no longer have access to that book, so I'm unable to fix it. --Z19:22, 16 June 2023 (UTC)reply
@
ZxxZxxZ: Thanks for taking care of some of the points above, especially in regard to the referencing; however, most of the points have not yet been addressed. If you believe you can tackle these under the current review, please provide an idea as to how long you will need. If it's more than a another 2 weeks, I'd suggest we close this review and re-nominate at a later time. Regards
Al Ameer (
talk)
15:54, 19 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Yes, I suggest closing this review, until I or another editor open it again in the future. Regards --Z15:20, 22 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.