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First of all, I just want to say I have no connection to anything here, and have just been following along the conversation just out of an interest in how Wikipedia works -- and I still have little interest in editing this article -- I am not even sure why this is seen as notable, to be honest. But, I did live in Japan for some time, and remember reading the article about Nick Baker in Metropolis.
That being said, why are fairtrails.org, www.sarahludford.org.uk, or theforeigner-japan.com allowed to be used as sources? In spite of any COI problems, Metropolis is a major source of information for English speaking residents of Tokyo -- which currently boasts writers such as Oscar Johnson and Fred Varcose who have written for the Asahi Shimbun's English language edition and the Japan Times respectively. Can anyone find any source for this in the Japanese language press? If not, then why are the views of Mark Devlin, as publisher of a magazine that is well known in the foreign community in Japan, not notable but a MEP who is not notable enough to have her own article in Wikipedia is -- plus whose website is being used as a primary source in this article.
I don't know whose story to believe, but Nick Baker was convicted by a court of law in Japan, but the article seems to go out of its way to discredit the Japanese justice system. In its present state, it seems to have POV problems of its own. No matter what comes of the issue with user:sparkzilla, that will still need to be addressed. XinJeisan 11:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Nothing that derives from an editorial constitutes a reliable source. See Wikipedia:Fact laundering. If a reliable source reported as fact that certain things happened, that is reliable, under our meaning of the word. If a reliable source reports, "John Smith, publisher of the Arkham Advertiser, today accused Dr. Henry Armitage of Miskatonic University of dabbling in the dark arts," that is merely proof that John Smith made a certain accusation. Any attempt to use such a source as proof that Armitge does in fact dabble in the dark arts is merely Fact laundering.
The fact laundering essay was written in response to an Arbitration case regarding Jack Hyles, a controversial religious leader. One of the issues in that case is that a former colleague had self-published a critical newsletter against Hyles, alleging marital infidelity and other misdeeds. At one point, the Chicago Post, in reporting on Hyles, wrote, "a former friend and colleague has accused Hyles of infidelity and other misdeeds." At the time, I too thought this was sufficiently reliable to include in the article. I have since changed my view, and parties here are advised to read through the case itself. If it is impermissable for Wikipedia to report "John Smith cheated on his wife" because the only source is unreliable for some reason (celebrity gossip magazine, self-published by Smith's political or business rivals, etc) then it is also impermissable to suggest that Smith cheated on his wife by referring to an unreliable accusation. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Vivaldi and especially Quotation_of_material_from_an_unreliable_source. Thatcher131 16:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
What do others think?-- Slp1 22:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
outdent - I understand you concerns Slp1. There are two problematic areas here. 1) There is very little out actually out there critical of Baker and his Mother/support group from which to source information. Secondly, and this is also in response to JReadings above. In a biography, especially of a living person, the more negative the information becomes the more strict we have to be with the sources, which is why you arrive at a situation where it might be acceptable to use a local newspaper for a fairly non-contentious issue, but the same source should not be used for potentially libelous information. David Lyons 01:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Can I suggest that this go under the section Reactions to the trail and that it be written. "However, Mark Devlin, publisher of Metropolis Magazine, withdrew his initial support for Nick Baker and pubically opposed their efforts." That edit would logically fit into the article. or, "However, In 2004, Mark Devlin, the publisher of Japan Today, criticized the Nick Baker campaign and withdrew his support from it" I think the using the word However, and placing it at the end of the Reactions section is the best way both from both a logic and aestetic (sp) standpoint for this sentence. XinJeisan 03:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
In reading through the dozens of newspaper articles written on this subject over the past couple days on Lexis-Nexis, I stumbled across an article interviewing James Prunier. It reads in part:
"The idea that I set him up and put somebody in prison, a friend or not a friend ... to me that is the pits," he had said then. Sadly everyone thinks I did round here." Mr Prunier admitted he was no angel and he had been involved in criminal activities.
"Everyone was just so caught up in this idea of this sort of Hollywood - loads of money, everybody travelling around the world," he said. "We were all really taken up by it and to be quite honest, really stupid.
"I should have stopped...if I was any sort of man I would have stopped him (Baker) and I wouldn't have been doing it myself.
(Source: "I didn'd dupe nick into carrying drugs," The Gloucester Citizen, People Section, August 20, 2004, pg. 9)
In an effort to provide more balance to this article, I believe that the reader should be presented with a *very brief* one sentence statement to the effect that the late James Prunier publicly asserted before his death that he did not dupe Nick Baker into carrying drugs. My reasoning: (1) it brings a little more balance to an article that is already perceived by some editors to have a selection bias in favor of exonerating Nick Baker (i.e., the article does not seem very neutral and encylopedic), (2) the Prunier statement is a publicly verifiable citation in a reliable third-party source, (3) Mr. Prunier is directly involved in the events of this case (therefore, he is a notable figure whose comments related to this case are obviously relevant).
If editors have any objections or comments, we should discuss them before the article is editted to reflect briefly this citation. J Readings 22:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
(< Xin, I remember reading somethig about the threats against Prunier, but I am not sure if it was in a discussion or in a source. As for Bakers comment, "I'll kill him/her" isn't always meant or accepted as a serious threat to the life of a person. The quote "I'll kill him" works well in the prose of the article, but would it be right to include a sentence like "Baker threatened Pruner's life from prison"? Statisticalregression 01:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)\
If other editors are in agreement, I propose adding in a new section entitled "James Prunier" something along the lines of:
James Prunier
James Edward Leon Prunier, eight years Baker's senior met Baker, according to Baker's Mother "through football" two to three years prior to Baker's arrest.
After fleeing the airport when Baker was detained, his movements and mobile telephone conversations were monitored by Japanese police, who also photographed him leaving the country two days later. He was not questioned or detained by the Japanese authorities.
Some three months after Baker's arrest, Prunier was detained in Belgium, along with three other young British citizens for allegedly trying to smuggle ecstasy out of the country. Reports have claimed that Prunier's three companions were released without charge, whilst another has claimed they were convicted of the crime.
In August 2003, whilst awaiting trial, Prunier gave an interview with Britain's Central Television in which he denied he had set up Baker and claimed to have received death threats relating to Baker's case.
In August 2004, Prunier, an unstable cocaine and alcohol addict, was found dead on a railway track in Gloucester, aged 42. An inquest returned a suicide verdict.
I believe I can reliably source all of the above. Comments please. David Lyons 02:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
This is the quote about the death threats from reference #1 "The idea that I set him up and put somebody in prison, a friend or not a friend, anybody in the world, the thought that I would do that, is the pits. Sadly, everyone thinks I did round here. And it's getting too much to bear."
Mr Prunier says that since the news broke, he has had death threats, but says he will not be driven out of Stroud.
He also denies claims that he has tricked other people into carrying drugs through customs and destinations around the world.
That seems to me that Prunier is claiming to have received death threats from people who think he set up Nick Baker. If you have another interpretation, I am happy to hear it. However, I didn't say nor do I have any problem with how you stated the information in your writeup. XinJeisan 03:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear, by Baker supporters I did in no way mean anyone connected to an organized support group. XinJeisan 05:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
(< question - did Prunier comment on Nick's version of events pertaining to the luggage exchange at the airport? Statisticalregression 00:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Fellow editors. I am thinking perhaps it would be better to remove the name of Baker's son from the main article. Mindful of the nature of internet archives and caches and so-forth, I think it inappropriate that an innocent in this affair remains indentifiable by name. I seem to remember that Baker's website made reference to the boy (which I now cannot find) but even so I feel we should show some sensitivity in this issue. David Lyons 10:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Hello All:
I hope everyone is having a more productive morning than I am. I wanted to share a few thoughts about this article in the hopes that a re-working will provide more stability and legitimacy to a greater readership.
First, let me state quite clearly that I hold no brief for Mark Devlin or Sparkzilla; I don’t know him nor do I know anyone associated with the Baker campaign; I share David Lyons’ legitimate concerns about undue weight and BLP concerns; that I only recently started to edit this article as of last week (having been busy with other articles); and that we should try our best to be both consistent and fair (Indeed, that’s my mantra for Wikipedia. Be consistent and fair!). That said, here are some of the more serious problems that arise, in my view, the moment we attempt to censor Metropolis and JapanToday from this article, as a couple of editors are now slowly but surely doing. As a compromise, I have a few suggestions below that I'm hoping can diplomatically resolve this mounting tension.
There is the clear perception of partisanship. It could be entirely innocent and circumstantial, granted, but here is a situation where Metropolis is slowly being removed from the article to source any material, but partisan sources such as Fair Trials Abroad and sarahludford.org.uk continue to be used to describe events in which allegedly neutral “facts” cannot be cross-referenced in reliable, independent third-party sources. (See footnotes 6, 7, 12, 13, 17, 18, and 21).
There are many reasons why we should adopt cross-referencing on these two aforementioned sources:
1. They're questionable sources writing about third-parties. See
WP:V
2. They're making contentious political claims against the Japanese judicial system.
3. They're partisan sources.
4. They're self-serving sources.
5. They're not academic or peer-reviewed publications in any conventional sense.
I accept the argument that many newspapers also do not do real investigative journalism for the benefit of the people, that they're fed stories by partisan sources, and that they simply repeat them because they make good stories and sell more newspapers. That said, let me make this compromise.
If two or more newspaper sources cannot be found to cross-reference these seven footnoes, these "facts" really should be removed immediately from the article and placed on the talk page until they can be sourced by neutral, third-party venues. If the argument then becomes, "but these are the only sources that exist!," then I would reply per policy "then obviously the mainstream newspapers did not believe it was worth writing about or mentioning."
Another editor raises the ad hominem issue of credentials FOR THE PARTISAN "REACTION TO TRIAL" SECTION (let me emphasize that). If legal credentials and “expertise” (whatever that may mean for the purpose of that section) becomes the benchmark through which publicly verifiable editorials may be sorted, then the obvious question of fairness arises: how many of these cited petitioners, politicians, etc. are really appropriate for this WP article, either? How many of the cited 10,000 petitioners and politicians are lawyers? How many are “Japan Specialists”? How many of the cited politicians intimately know the Nick Baker case, and how does one prove that using publicly verifiable, third-party sources? I notice from the archives that Havard University Law professor, J. Mark Ramseyer's negative (albeit tangential) commentary regarding the case was deleted, but those positive comments made by others towards Nick Baker's case were surprisingly allowed to stay. Clearly if legal credentials and expertise are invoked for one person being allowed to comment on the case for a WP article, that standard should be invoked for all, no? Otherwise, it should not be used as an excuse to delete material from that section. Granted, there can be far more compelling reasons for removing materials, but it should be consistently applied.
I fear that I'm beginning to write too much on this subject, so I'll stop. Thanks for your time and patience, and I sincerely hope that my suggestions will be taken on board. J Readings 01:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
re wasted morning: but it's nighttime here! I also support this analysis and the suggested action. In fact, judging by [14] we must do it, ruling out David's proposal, I fear, since "Material from third-party primary sources should not be used unless it has first been published by a reliable secondary source". The facts tagged with citation needed should also be moved to this page. They have been there for a while now, and can be reinserted later if sourced. For myself, I am not yet convinced that Metropolis etc is an unreliable source, (though I admit I have yet to read through the archives on this subject!, but I will, I will!). Slp1 02:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- In regards to the Ramseyer report, it seems the PDF is no longer available, but my impression from a google search is that it was only about the Japanese legal system. Perhaps someone who has access to it or has read it can tell us if it mentioned anything about Baker or Baker's trial? From the diff I found it was included on the page as an external link but didn't see one that used it as a source. Statisticalregression 02:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
which discusses the translation aspects of the situation. However, they too seem to have used nickbakerforjustice.com as a source of their information see [16]
Here is a reference and link from JSTOR if anyone is lucky like me and has access to it. Why Is the Japanese Conviction Rate so High?
J. Mark Ramseyer; Eric B. Rasmusen The Journal of Legal Studies, Vol. 30, No. 1. (Jan., 2001), pp. 53-88. XinJeisan 03:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi SR. I was just about to post the JSTOR link (a useful search engine for academic journal papers) when I noticed that XinJeisan beat me to it! In any case, several publications seem to have used the Ramseyer analysis in connection with the Baker case: for example, here, here, and here. But we should probably talk about whether the sources are acceptable for inclusion into the partisan "Reactions to trial" section. My opinion is that it would be okay. (Note to David, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'll respond after lunch.) Best, J Readings 03:17, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Given the obvious conflict of interest, lack of real editorial oversight, and clear attempt at ax-grinding, no, Metropolis is completely unsuitable as a reliable source. It's been contaminated beyond redemption, so you need to find an actual reliable source independent of it. -- Calton | Talk 11:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
So, what Carlton is saying is that not only is Mark Devlin unsuited to edit Wikipedia, he is unsuited to be a publisher? That is an interesting perspective. At the same time, if you have been following along in our discussion, you would see we have been discussing the fact that many primary and partisan sources with obvious COI issues are being used as sources of fact in this article as well.
There are so few actual known facts in this that just like User:Slp1 says, most everything that has been said even in the Metropolis artices as well as in the pro-Baker sources, can be found pretty much word for word in other newspaper sources -- most likely because the only source of information in this case is the Nick Baker group, and if you read through the articles no journalist has seemed to done any major investigation into this story. (If there is one, let me know)There is this article which is used as a reference from the Japan Times, but it is not a news story as well, but a commentary column that runs in the community section of the Japan Times, and I am personally unsure if any editoral oversight or fact checking occurs in these Zeit Gist columns. All Metropolis is guilty of doing is being the only media outlet to actually take a critical look at the information the pro-Baker group is handing out. That sounds pretty journalistic to me.
And, in that regard, I really agree with user:Spellin and wonder if a round of AfD wouldn't be a good idea before attempting to re-write the article. If the British Government had gotten involved in some open and formal way, this case would be notable, as I mentioned above. However, the British Government has not made a public statement in any way as far as I can find, save for answering direct questions at a ministerial question time. As noted above, there were not many references to this case in Japanese.
To sum, I agree with everything that JR has said up until now, and from what I saw of his work on the talk page at gaijin, there is really no worry that this article will be anything except NPOV at the end of the process, I just wonder if the effort and thought that JR and others is willing to put into this article is worthwhile. XinJeisan 14:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is my email and response from the Japan Times about the ZeitGist section. I took out all the proper names and my email. The editor didn't seem to answer the question directly, and referenced only the current article by Debito. I am not sure what this means in relation to using Zeit Gist columns for articles, but, I guess it is up to the community...
My advice would be to check out the extensive sources for Debito's writing, which can be found on his website, referenced at the end of the article in the newspaper or online. I think it's clear that Debito is using facts selectively to make a point - as any writer does to some degree - and it's up to the reader to decide based on the sources whether the writer has come to logical conclusions based on these "facts" or not.
Regards
Community Editor The Japan Times
>From: JT.HomePage.-.English@form2.japantimes.co.jp >To: community@japantimes.co.jp >Subject: JTO - Contact us >Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:29:15 +0900 > >
>Comment : Hello. I am a long time reader of the Japan Times, and I >have a question about the Zeit Gist section. It is kind of silly, >because it comes out of a discussion on editing articles at Wikipedia >(it is summer vacation at my grad school....) but I am wondering if >Zeit Gist articles can be considered as sources. I always thought that >The Japan Times solicits these articles through the statement at the >bottom of the page, and that these would fit in more on the opinion >page than the front page, if the Japan Times was the Wall Street >Journal or something like that. I notice that Debito is doing a good >job at interviewing and writing in a journaistic fashion, but, we all >know his point of view, and we know the article is written as such, >while not commenting on the accuracy in and of itself, we cannot take >it for a balanced perspective nor as objective journalistic truth >(maybe it isn't possible, but people who edit Wikipedia seem to believe so..) Anyways, thanks for! > taking the time to answer my question about the Zeit Gist section. >Keep up the good work!
XinJeisan 05:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
<- well, with the world cup coming I can see how they might not make it 'front page' news, but it seems very unlikely that they ignored the incident. Perhaps a search with 成田国際空港 + MDMA would yield results, I will try it myself. I wouldn't assign much importance to the apparent lack of sources in Japanese language media, we haven't been looking long at all, and besides we have English language sources from Japan... Statisticalregression 17:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Writing from the library, so this will need to be short and sweet.
Mainichi Shimbun: zero coverage.
Nihon Keizai Shimbun: zero coverage.
Sankei Shimbun: zero coverage.
Asahi Shimbun: one article only.
On the Asahi article, the title reads in Japanese: 「英国籍の被告が判決不服と控訴MDMA密輸事件」
That article was written on 14 June, 2003 for the morning edition of the paper, and put way in the back on page 31. They also didn't give it much space--122 words total. Not a lot, really. It was just a few sentences, actually.
Sankei Shimbun doesn't have any database results that I trust (but I couldn't find anything there either), and Yomiuri Shimbun has great coverage from the Meiji era until 1960, but unfortunately doesn't offer this library any coverage thereafter. Strange database, I thought. Anyway, I hope that helps to give everyone a little better idea of what the Japanese press corps seems to think of this subject. Looks like XinJeisan was right. J Readings 09:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Shunji Miyake, attorney-at-law and counsel to Baker, and Jake Adelstein, a journalist with extensive experience in criminal cases and court and government proceedings, will discuss the difficulties inherent in defending criminal cases in Japan and how the media has reported on the Baker case, the broad international interest in the case and reactions to it overseas.
On May 10, 2003, almost a month before Baker's verdict was scheduled, this letter and the growing concerns surrounding the trial were reported in detail in Japan's largest newspaper, the Yomiuri Shimbun.
Following the apparent consensus in "Partisan Sources, Neutral Sources, Reliable Sources, and Fairness" section above, I have given myself 90 minutes to begin the pruning. As a start, I will be removing any "facts" not supported by at least one independent source, as well as information followed by a 'fact' tag. I will be placing the deleted sentences here.
Slp1
13:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
--
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I have a source here for "Japan does not have a jury system - trials are overseen by three judges" Please check it and re-add if you think it suitable. [24] David Lyons 14:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please explain a small technical issue to me/us? How does this double footnote column work now that it's been added to the Nick Baker article here? Does it literally create two columns? If so, at what number of footnotes does that function usually kick in? Does it only work on certain internet browsers (I use MS IE)because I don't see any difference yet? What am I missing here? FYI, I'm thinking about adding it to the articles that I edit. Thanks in advance. J Readings 23:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi all,
I have been working on a bit of a reorganization of the material here, with some additions and a bit of a pruning of repetitive stuff. But I have a question or two for the troops.
Looking forward to your comments.-- Slp1 00:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
As you will see, I have spent way too long today on a reorganization and continued with sourcing, etc, though there remains stuff to be done. I have deleted a few bits of sourced material that I either did not feel added much to the story or was repetitious. I have also added information about Prunier etc, as well as other aspects of the story that I noted in my research. I would be glad for comments and improvements as required! -- Slp1 20:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
An article from Metropolis appears to be used quite a lot as a source for this article [26] . I am curious as to why this article is included as a repetitive source, when in recent confrontations an editorial by Metropolis' Mark Devlin was shot down due to Metropolis being an unnoteworthy rag. I will be reinstating a non BLP-violating version of the text referenced to Devlin's editorial if noone disputes it on any real basis.-- ZayZayEM 04:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Along the lines of:
Content no longer refers to any LP. (No comments directed at I. Baker). I have read the Metropolis article and cannot find any specific BLP violating material. No contentious claims are made regarding Baker. Devlin repeatedly states he is not calling Nick guilty. Comments are levelled at behaviour of I. Baker, support groups and the press regarding the case.
The text uses a non-Metropolis source that verifies Devlin's status as a notable commentator.
I welcome any comments on the wording of this text before insertion. I'm tired and stressed from uni, and have embroilled myself in issues over at Influenza pandemic.-- ZayZayEM 13:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
On second reading of the sentance included, which I have edited a little, I don't mind just leaving it that. I would however like to understand why the editorial itself cannot be linked. Please specify the BLP-violating material. Any attacks in the editorial are directed at the support group, which is not a Living Person.--
ZayZayEM
00:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
<- Zay, I moved the devlin sentence up to the first paragraph in the 'reactions to trials' section as it seems to fit there date wise and subject wise, although maybe a seperate paragraph in the middle would be better? Pls take a look at it and change it if you feel otherwise. Also I was thinking of adding one bit of info to the end of the devlin sentence....something to this effect:
but not sure if it's good or not Statisticalregression 07:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
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Hello All:
I'm typing from the library, so this post will have to be short. First, apologies for the delay. I wasn't able to get to the library until today.
Second, a special thanks to David Lyons for his suggested dates. They were quite helpful in reading through the backpages which (surprise, surprise) is exactly where the Yomiuri editors decided to place these very short articles (in the evening editions, no less!).
Of the 8 suggested dates, I was only able to confirm the existence of 5 articles. No Yomiuri editorials, unfortunately.
The good news is that I found one op-ed piece dated 28 June, 2003 written by a 「J・アデルステイン」(English spelling?) in Japanese. I haven't actually read the op-ed yet (and the library is closing shortly, so I don't have the chance to copy it and take it home), but I'll return when the library opens again on Thursday in order to copy it and perhaps translate the relevant parts for the Reactions section.
I hope that helps.
Best, J Readings 09:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Please add inline citations to the lead as per WP:LEAD. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 13:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
User:Statisticalregression made this today. I think we really need to change it back. If you take a look at the page now using a MS IE Browser, you'll automatically know what I'm talking about. The Nick Baker image is now floating way above the rest of the body text. Sorry, J Readings 11:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Couple of recent edits to the article have brought up the question of whether or not Metropolis can be used as a source. I've already left a mssg on Cla68's talk but though I would copy/paste my observations here for further discussion:
Statisticalregression ( talk) 08:32, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
<-:::Further up this discussion page it was explained a little better in this diff the key point is that material or sources that contain potentially libelous claims about living persons (which the Metropolis article does) per WP policy doesn't have a place here, especially considering the direct involvement of Devlin & Metropolis in the controversy.
-In your edit summary you wrote: "talk page consensus was to keep this and it has remained here for a long time" but as the admin at the time explained already, one article RFC does not change BLP policy. -The length of time it remained in the article has no bearing when BLP policy is concerned -A place to start to understand Devlin's conflict of interest is here, a discussion that you may have forgotten about but did participate in.
Reading through the archives, it's clear that you felt Metropolis to be a RS, & Devlin's participation in the discussion of this article. I doubt very much at this point that any of the previously discussed reasons why it's not an appropriate source here that I could reiterate would convince you as they don't seemed to have at the time. Statisticalregression ( talk) 15:04, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
I truely think for the sake of balancing thing out that there should be a controversy section that points out the loopholes in Nick Baker's story the Mark Devlin mentioned. There's been alot of shock focus that the media puts out in an unbalanced manner just to get people emotionally invested. Granted Japanese prisons are indeed strict, but nowhere never as much as activists make them out to be seeing how their tactics are more about catching attention than anything: http://www.markdevlin.com/NickBaker/thenickbakerdeception.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graylandertagger ( talk • contribs) 23:50, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
No opposition. Controversy section added. If anyones against it, please respond. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graylandertagger ( talk • contribs) 20:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
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"Nick has been released now for several years." This was preceding the lead section. Schwede 66 17:17, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
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First of all, I just want to say I have no connection to anything here, and have just been following along the conversation just out of an interest in how Wikipedia works -- and I still have little interest in editing this article -- I am not even sure why this is seen as notable, to be honest. But, I did live in Japan for some time, and remember reading the article about Nick Baker in Metropolis.
That being said, why are fairtrails.org, www.sarahludford.org.uk, or theforeigner-japan.com allowed to be used as sources? In spite of any COI problems, Metropolis is a major source of information for English speaking residents of Tokyo -- which currently boasts writers such as Oscar Johnson and Fred Varcose who have written for the Asahi Shimbun's English language edition and the Japan Times respectively. Can anyone find any source for this in the Japanese language press? If not, then why are the views of Mark Devlin, as publisher of a magazine that is well known in the foreign community in Japan, not notable but a MEP who is not notable enough to have her own article in Wikipedia is -- plus whose website is being used as a primary source in this article.
I don't know whose story to believe, but Nick Baker was convicted by a court of law in Japan, but the article seems to go out of its way to discredit the Japanese justice system. In its present state, it seems to have POV problems of its own. No matter what comes of the issue with user:sparkzilla, that will still need to be addressed. XinJeisan 11:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Nothing that derives from an editorial constitutes a reliable source. See Wikipedia:Fact laundering. If a reliable source reported as fact that certain things happened, that is reliable, under our meaning of the word. If a reliable source reports, "John Smith, publisher of the Arkham Advertiser, today accused Dr. Henry Armitage of Miskatonic University of dabbling in the dark arts," that is merely proof that John Smith made a certain accusation. Any attempt to use such a source as proof that Armitge does in fact dabble in the dark arts is merely Fact laundering.
The fact laundering essay was written in response to an Arbitration case regarding Jack Hyles, a controversial religious leader. One of the issues in that case is that a former colleague had self-published a critical newsletter against Hyles, alleging marital infidelity and other misdeeds. At one point, the Chicago Post, in reporting on Hyles, wrote, "a former friend and colleague has accused Hyles of infidelity and other misdeeds." At the time, I too thought this was sufficiently reliable to include in the article. I have since changed my view, and parties here are advised to read through the case itself. If it is impermissable for Wikipedia to report "John Smith cheated on his wife" because the only source is unreliable for some reason (celebrity gossip magazine, self-published by Smith's political or business rivals, etc) then it is also impermissable to suggest that Smith cheated on his wife by referring to an unreliable accusation. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Vivaldi and especially Quotation_of_material_from_an_unreliable_source. Thatcher131 16:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
What do others think?-- Slp1 22:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
outdent - I understand you concerns Slp1. There are two problematic areas here. 1) There is very little out actually out there critical of Baker and his Mother/support group from which to source information. Secondly, and this is also in response to JReadings above. In a biography, especially of a living person, the more negative the information becomes the more strict we have to be with the sources, which is why you arrive at a situation where it might be acceptable to use a local newspaper for a fairly non-contentious issue, but the same source should not be used for potentially libelous information. David Lyons 01:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Can I suggest that this go under the section Reactions to the trail and that it be written. "However, Mark Devlin, publisher of Metropolis Magazine, withdrew his initial support for Nick Baker and pubically opposed their efforts." That edit would logically fit into the article. or, "However, In 2004, Mark Devlin, the publisher of Japan Today, criticized the Nick Baker campaign and withdrew his support from it" I think the using the word However, and placing it at the end of the Reactions section is the best way both from both a logic and aestetic (sp) standpoint for this sentence. XinJeisan 03:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
In reading through the dozens of newspaper articles written on this subject over the past couple days on Lexis-Nexis, I stumbled across an article interviewing James Prunier. It reads in part:
"The idea that I set him up and put somebody in prison, a friend or not a friend ... to me that is the pits," he had said then. Sadly everyone thinks I did round here." Mr Prunier admitted he was no angel and he had been involved in criminal activities.
"Everyone was just so caught up in this idea of this sort of Hollywood - loads of money, everybody travelling around the world," he said. "We were all really taken up by it and to be quite honest, really stupid.
"I should have stopped...if I was any sort of man I would have stopped him (Baker) and I wouldn't have been doing it myself.
(Source: "I didn'd dupe nick into carrying drugs," The Gloucester Citizen, People Section, August 20, 2004, pg. 9)
In an effort to provide more balance to this article, I believe that the reader should be presented with a *very brief* one sentence statement to the effect that the late James Prunier publicly asserted before his death that he did not dupe Nick Baker into carrying drugs. My reasoning: (1) it brings a little more balance to an article that is already perceived by some editors to have a selection bias in favor of exonerating Nick Baker (i.e., the article does not seem very neutral and encylopedic), (2) the Prunier statement is a publicly verifiable citation in a reliable third-party source, (3) Mr. Prunier is directly involved in the events of this case (therefore, he is a notable figure whose comments related to this case are obviously relevant).
If editors have any objections or comments, we should discuss them before the article is editted to reflect briefly this citation. J Readings 22:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
(< Xin, I remember reading somethig about the threats against Prunier, but I am not sure if it was in a discussion or in a source. As for Bakers comment, "I'll kill him/her" isn't always meant or accepted as a serious threat to the life of a person. The quote "I'll kill him" works well in the prose of the article, but would it be right to include a sentence like "Baker threatened Pruner's life from prison"? Statisticalregression 01:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)\
If other editors are in agreement, I propose adding in a new section entitled "James Prunier" something along the lines of:
James Prunier
James Edward Leon Prunier, eight years Baker's senior met Baker, according to Baker's Mother "through football" two to three years prior to Baker's arrest.
After fleeing the airport when Baker was detained, his movements and mobile telephone conversations were monitored by Japanese police, who also photographed him leaving the country two days later. He was not questioned or detained by the Japanese authorities.
Some three months after Baker's arrest, Prunier was detained in Belgium, along with three other young British citizens for allegedly trying to smuggle ecstasy out of the country. Reports have claimed that Prunier's three companions were released without charge, whilst another has claimed they were convicted of the crime.
In August 2003, whilst awaiting trial, Prunier gave an interview with Britain's Central Television in which he denied he had set up Baker and claimed to have received death threats relating to Baker's case.
In August 2004, Prunier, an unstable cocaine and alcohol addict, was found dead on a railway track in Gloucester, aged 42. An inquest returned a suicide verdict.
I believe I can reliably source all of the above. Comments please. David Lyons 02:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
This is the quote about the death threats from reference #1 "The idea that I set him up and put somebody in prison, a friend or not a friend, anybody in the world, the thought that I would do that, is the pits. Sadly, everyone thinks I did round here. And it's getting too much to bear."
Mr Prunier says that since the news broke, he has had death threats, but says he will not be driven out of Stroud.
He also denies claims that he has tricked other people into carrying drugs through customs and destinations around the world.
That seems to me that Prunier is claiming to have received death threats from people who think he set up Nick Baker. If you have another interpretation, I am happy to hear it. However, I didn't say nor do I have any problem with how you stated the information in your writeup. XinJeisan 03:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear, by Baker supporters I did in no way mean anyone connected to an organized support group. XinJeisan 05:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
(< question - did Prunier comment on Nick's version of events pertaining to the luggage exchange at the airport? Statisticalregression 00:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Fellow editors. I am thinking perhaps it would be better to remove the name of Baker's son from the main article. Mindful of the nature of internet archives and caches and so-forth, I think it inappropriate that an innocent in this affair remains indentifiable by name. I seem to remember that Baker's website made reference to the boy (which I now cannot find) but even so I feel we should show some sensitivity in this issue. David Lyons 10:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Hello All:
I hope everyone is having a more productive morning than I am. I wanted to share a few thoughts about this article in the hopes that a re-working will provide more stability and legitimacy to a greater readership.
First, let me state quite clearly that I hold no brief for Mark Devlin or Sparkzilla; I don’t know him nor do I know anyone associated with the Baker campaign; I share David Lyons’ legitimate concerns about undue weight and BLP concerns; that I only recently started to edit this article as of last week (having been busy with other articles); and that we should try our best to be both consistent and fair (Indeed, that’s my mantra for Wikipedia. Be consistent and fair!). That said, here are some of the more serious problems that arise, in my view, the moment we attempt to censor Metropolis and JapanToday from this article, as a couple of editors are now slowly but surely doing. As a compromise, I have a few suggestions below that I'm hoping can diplomatically resolve this mounting tension.
There is the clear perception of partisanship. It could be entirely innocent and circumstantial, granted, but here is a situation where Metropolis is slowly being removed from the article to source any material, but partisan sources such as Fair Trials Abroad and sarahludford.org.uk continue to be used to describe events in which allegedly neutral “facts” cannot be cross-referenced in reliable, independent third-party sources. (See footnotes 6, 7, 12, 13, 17, 18, and 21).
There are many reasons why we should adopt cross-referencing on these two aforementioned sources:
1. They're questionable sources writing about third-parties. See
WP:V
2. They're making contentious political claims against the Japanese judicial system.
3. They're partisan sources.
4. They're self-serving sources.
5. They're not academic or peer-reviewed publications in any conventional sense.
I accept the argument that many newspapers also do not do real investigative journalism for the benefit of the people, that they're fed stories by partisan sources, and that they simply repeat them because they make good stories and sell more newspapers. That said, let me make this compromise.
If two or more newspaper sources cannot be found to cross-reference these seven footnoes, these "facts" really should be removed immediately from the article and placed on the talk page until they can be sourced by neutral, third-party venues. If the argument then becomes, "but these are the only sources that exist!," then I would reply per policy "then obviously the mainstream newspapers did not believe it was worth writing about or mentioning."
Another editor raises the ad hominem issue of credentials FOR THE PARTISAN "REACTION TO TRIAL" SECTION (let me emphasize that). If legal credentials and “expertise” (whatever that may mean for the purpose of that section) becomes the benchmark through which publicly verifiable editorials may be sorted, then the obvious question of fairness arises: how many of these cited petitioners, politicians, etc. are really appropriate for this WP article, either? How many of the cited 10,000 petitioners and politicians are lawyers? How many are “Japan Specialists”? How many of the cited politicians intimately know the Nick Baker case, and how does one prove that using publicly verifiable, third-party sources? I notice from the archives that Havard University Law professor, J. Mark Ramseyer's negative (albeit tangential) commentary regarding the case was deleted, but those positive comments made by others towards Nick Baker's case were surprisingly allowed to stay. Clearly if legal credentials and expertise are invoked for one person being allowed to comment on the case for a WP article, that standard should be invoked for all, no? Otherwise, it should not be used as an excuse to delete material from that section. Granted, there can be far more compelling reasons for removing materials, but it should be consistently applied.
I fear that I'm beginning to write too much on this subject, so I'll stop. Thanks for your time and patience, and I sincerely hope that my suggestions will be taken on board. J Readings 01:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
re wasted morning: but it's nighttime here! I also support this analysis and the suggested action. In fact, judging by [14] we must do it, ruling out David's proposal, I fear, since "Material from third-party primary sources should not be used unless it has first been published by a reliable secondary source". The facts tagged with citation needed should also be moved to this page. They have been there for a while now, and can be reinserted later if sourced. For myself, I am not yet convinced that Metropolis etc is an unreliable source, (though I admit I have yet to read through the archives on this subject!, but I will, I will!). Slp1 02:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- In regards to the Ramseyer report, it seems the PDF is no longer available, but my impression from a google search is that it was only about the Japanese legal system. Perhaps someone who has access to it or has read it can tell us if it mentioned anything about Baker or Baker's trial? From the diff I found it was included on the page as an external link but didn't see one that used it as a source. Statisticalregression 02:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
which discusses the translation aspects of the situation. However, they too seem to have used nickbakerforjustice.com as a source of their information see [16]
Here is a reference and link from JSTOR if anyone is lucky like me and has access to it. Why Is the Japanese Conviction Rate so High?
J. Mark Ramseyer; Eric B. Rasmusen The Journal of Legal Studies, Vol. 30, No. 1. (Jan., 2001), pp. 53-88. XinJeisan 03:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi SR. I was just about to post the JSTOR link (a useful search engine for academic journal papers) when I noticed that XinJeisan beat me to it! In any case, several publications seem to have used the Ramseyer analysis in connection with the Baker case: for example, here, here, and here. But we should probably talk about whether the sources are acceptable for inclusion into the partisan "Reactions to trial" section. My opinion is that it would be okay. (Note to David, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'll respond after lunch.) Best, J Readings 03:17, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Given the obvious conflict of interest, lack of real editorial oversight, and clear attempt at ax-grinding, no, Metropolis is completely unsuitable as a reliable source. It's been contaminated beyond redemption, so you need to find an actual reliable source independent of it. -- Calton | Talk 11:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
So, what Carlton is saying is that not only is Mark Devlin unsuited to edit Wikipedia, he is unsuited to be a publisher? That is an interesting perspective. At the same time, if you have been following along in our discussion, you would see we have been discussing the fact that many primary and partisan sources with obvious COI issues are being used as sources of fact in this article as well.
There are so few actual known facts in this that just like User:Slp1 says, most everything that has been said even in the Metropolis artices as well as in the pro-Baker sources, can be found pretty much word for word in other newspaper sources -- most likely because the only source of information in this case is the Nick Baker group, and if you read through the articles no journalist has seemed to done any major investigation into this story. (If there is one, let me know)There is this article which is used as a reference from the Japan Times, but it is not a news story as well, but a commentary column that runs in the community section of the Japan Times, and I am personally unsure if any editoral oversight or fact checking occurs in these Zeit Gist columns. All Metropolis is guilty of doing is being the only media outlet to actually take a critical look at the information the pro-Baker group is handing out. That sounds pretty journalistic to me.
And, in that regard, I really agree with user:Spellin and wonder if a round of AfD wouldn't be a good idea before attempting to re-write the article. If the British Government had gotten involved in some open and formal way, this case would be notable, as I mentioned above. However, the British Government has not made a public statement in any way as far as I can find, save for answering direct questions at a ministerial question time. As noted above, there were not many references to this case in Japanese.
To sum, I agree with everything that JR has said up until now, and from what I saw of his work on the talk page at gaijin, there is really no worry that this article will be anything except NPOV at the end of the process, I just wonder if the effort and thought that JR and others is willing to put into this article is worthwhile. XinJeisan 14:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is my email and response from the Japan Times about the ZeitGist section. I took out all the proper names and my email. The editor didn't seem to answer the question directly, and referenced only the current article by Debito. I am not sure what this means in relation to using Zeit Gist columns for articles, but, I guess it is up to the community...
My advice would be to check out the extensive sources for Debito's writing, which can be found on his website, referenced at the end of the article in the newspaper or online. I think it's clear that Debito is using facts selectively to make a point - as any writer does to some degree - and it's up to the reader to decide based on the sources whether the writer has come to logical conclusions based on these "facts" or not.
Regards
Community Editor The Japan Times
>From: JT.HomePage.-.English@form2.japantimes.co.jp >To: community@japantimes.co.jp >Subject: JTO - Contact us >Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:29:15 +0900 > >
>Comment : Hello. I am a long time reader of the Japan Times, and I >have a question about the Zeit Gist section. It is kind of silly, >because it comes out of a discussion on editing articles at Wikipedia >(it is summer vacation at my grad school....) but I am wondering if >Zeit Gist articles can be considered as sources. I always thought that >The Japan Times solicits these articles through the statement at the >bottom of the page, and that these would fit in more on the opinion >page than the front page, if the Japan Times was the Wall Street >Journal or something like that. I notice that Debito is doing a good >job at interviewing and writing in a journaistic fashion, but, we all >know his point of view, and we know the article is written as such, >while not commenting on the accuracy in and of itself, we cannot take >it for a balanced perspective nor as objective journalistic truth >(maybe it isn't possible, but people who edit Wikipedia seem to believe so..) Anyways, thanks for! > taking the time to answer my question about the Zeit Gist section. >Keep up the good work!
XinJeisan 05:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
<- well, with the world cup coming I can see how they might not make it 'front page' news, but it seems very unlikely that they ignored the incident. Perhaps a search with 成田国際空港 + MDMA would yield results, I will try it myself. I wouldn't assign much importance to the apparent lack of sources in Japanese language media, we haven't been looking long at all, and besides we have English language sources from Japan... Statisticalregression 17:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Writing from the library, so this will need to be short and sweet.
Mainichi Shimbun: zero coverage.
Nihon Keizai Shimbun: zero coverage.
Sankei Shimbun: zero coverage.
Asahi Shimbun: one article only.
On the Asahi article, the title reads in Japanese: 「英国籍の被告が判決不服と控訴MDMA密輸事件」
That article was written on 14 June, 2003 for the morning edition of the paper, and put way in the back on page 31. They also didn't give it much space--122 words total. Not a lot, really. It was just a few sentences, actually.
Sankei Shimbun doesn't have any database results that I trust (but I couldn't find anything there either), and Yomiuri Shimbun has great coverage from the Meiji era until 1960, but unfortunately doesn't offer this library any coverage thereafter. Strange database, I thought. Anyway, I hope that helps to give everyone a little better idea of what the Japanese press corps seems to think of this subject. Looks like XinJeisan was right. J Readings 09:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Shunji Miyake, attorney-at-law and counsel to Baker, and Jake Adelstein, a journalist with extensive experience in criminal cases and court and government proceedings, will discuss the difficulties inherent in defending criminal cases in Japan and how the media has reported on the Baker case, the broad international interest in the case and reactions to it overseas.
On May 10, 2003, almost a month before Baker's verdict was scheduled, this letter and the growing concerns surrounding the trial were reported in detail in Japan's largest newspaper, the Yomiuri Shimbun.
Following the apparent consensus in "Partisan Sources, Neutral Sources, Reliable Sources, and Fairness" section above, I have given myself 90 minutes to begin the pruning. As a start, I will be removing any "facts" not supported by at least one independent source, as well as information followed by a 'fact' tag. I will be placing the deleted sentences here.
Slp1
13:15, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
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I have a source here for "Japan does not have a jury system - trials are overseen by three judges" Please check it and re-add if you think it suitable. [24] David Lyons 14:35, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please explain a small technical issue to me/us? How does this double footnote column work now that it's been added to the Nick Baker article here? Does it literally create two columns? If so, at what number of footnotes does that function usually kick in? Does it only work on certain internet browsers (I use MS IE)because I don't see any difference yet? What am I missing here? FYI, I'm thinking about adding it to the articles that I edit. Thanks in advance. J Readings 23:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi all,
I have been working on a bit of a reorganization of the material here, with some additions and a bit of a pruning of repetitive stuff. But I have a question or two for the troops.
Looking forward to your comments.-- Slp1 00:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
As you will see, I have spent way too long today on a reorganization and continued with sourcing, etc, though there remains stuff to be done. I have deleted a few bits of sourced material that I either did not feel added much to the story or was repetitious. I have also added information about Prunier etc, as well as other aspects of the story that I noted in my research. I would be glad for comments and improvements as required! -- Slp1 20:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
An article from Metropolis appears to be used quite a lot as a source for this article [26] . I am curious as to why this article is included as a repetitive source, when in recent confrontations an editorial by Metropolis' Mark Devlin was shot down due to Metropolis being an unnoteworthy rag. I will be reinstating a non BLP-violating version of the text referenced to Devlin's editorial if noone disputes it on any real basis.-- ZayZayEM 04:42, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Along the lines of:
Content no longer refers to any LP. (No comments directed at I. Baker). I have read the Metropolis article and cannot find any specific BLP violating material. No contentious claims are made regarding Baker. Devlin repeatedly states he is not calling Nick guilty. Comments are levelled at behaviour of I. Baker, support groups and the press regarding the case.
The text uses a non-Metropolis source that verifies Devlin's status as a notable commentator.
I welcome any comments on the wording of this text before insertion. I'm tired and stressed from uni, and have embroilled myself in issues over at Influenza pandemic.-- ZayZayEM 13:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
On second reading of the sentance included, which I have edited a little, I don't mind just leaving it that. I would however like to understand why the editorial itself cannot be linked. Please specify the BLP-violating material. Any attacks in the editorial are directed at the support group, which is not a Living Person.--
ZayZayEM
00:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
<- Zay, I moved the devlin sentence up to the first paragraph in the 'reactions to trials' section as it seems to fit there date wise and subject wise, although maybe a seperate paragraph in the middle would be better? Pls take a look at it and change it if you feel otherwise. Also I was thinking of adding one bit of info to the end of the devlin sentence....something to this effect:
but not sure if it's good or not Statisticalregression 07:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
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Hello All:
I'm typing from the library, so this post will have to be short. First, apologies for the delay. I wasn't able to get to the library until today.
Second, a special thanks to David Lyons for his suggested dates. They were quite helpful in reading through the backpages which (surprise, surprise) is exactly where the Yomiuri editors decided to place these very short articles (in the evening editions, no less!).
Of the 8 suggested dates, I was only able to confirm the existence of 5 articles. No Yomiuri editorials, unfortunately.
The good news is that I found one op-ed piece dated 28 June, 2003 written by a 「J・アデルステイン」(English spelling?) in Japanese. I haven't actually read the op-ed yet (and the library is closing shortly, so I don't have the chance to copy it and take it home), but I'll return when the library opens again on Thursday in order to copy it and perhaps translate the relevant parts for the Reactions section.
I hope that helps.
Best, J Readings 09:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Please add inline citations to the lead as per WP:LEAD. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 13:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
User:Statisticalregression made this today. I think we really need to change it back. If you take a look at the page now using a MS IE Browser, you'll automatically know what I'm talking about. The Nick Baker image is now floating way above the rest of the body text. Sorry, J Readings 11:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Couple of recent edits to the article have brought up the question of whether or not Metropolis can be used as a source. I've already left a mssg on Cla68's talk but though I would copy/paste my observations here for further discussion:
Statisticalregression ( talk) 08:32, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
<-:::Further up this discussion page it was explained a little better in this diff the key point is that material or sources that contain potentially libelous claims about living persons (which the Metropolis article does) per WP policy doesn't have a place here, especially considering the direct involvement of Devlin & Metropolis in the controversy.
-In your edit summary you wrote: "talk page consensus was to keep this and it has remained here for a long time" but as the admin at the time explained already, one article RFC does not change BLP policy. -The length of time it remained in the article has no bearing when BLP policy is concerned -A place to start to understand Devlin's conflict of interest is here, a discussion that you may have forgotten about but did participate in.
Reading through the archives, it's clear that you felt Metropolis to be a RS, & Devlin's participation in the discussion of this article. I doubt very much at this point that any of the previously discussed reasons why it's not an appropriate source here that I could reiterate would convince you as they don't seemed to have at the time. Statisticalregression ( talk) 15:04, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
I truely think for the sake of balancing thing out that there should be a controversy section that points out the loopholes in Nick Baker's story the Mark Devlin mentioned. There's been alot of shock focus that the media puts out in an unbalanced manner just to get people emotionally invested. Granted Japanese prisons are indeed strict, but nowhere never as much as activists make them out to be seeing how their tactics are more about catching attention than anything: http://www.markdevlin.com/NickBaker/thenickbakerdeception.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graylandertagger ( talk • contribs) 23:50, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
No opposition. Controversy section added. If anyones against it, please respond. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graylandertagger ( talk • contribs) 20:06, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
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"Nick has been released now for several years." This was preceding the lead section. Schwede 66 17:17, 18 December 2017 (UTC)