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Aside from being written in a tendentious over-the-top POV manner, the article fails the ten year test and does not satisfy Wikipedia criteria for notability. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 06:30, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
WP:NOTNEWS as well. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 06:30, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
The article is one sided and uses extreme language. For example:
-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:52, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
"As has been widely reported, the nationalist regime leading Poland since 2015 has pushed back against researchers who have turned up facts that are seen as blackening the good name of the Polish nation. Even after it was modified, a law passed in early 2018 made it illegal to publicly ascribe any Holocaust complicity to the Polish nation or people. ". Nor is this language particular to this source - see e.g. [5].
"In the Polish case, the best organized of these groups are Roman Catholics. Emigres of this group benefit from the institutional support of the Church in which parishes maintain Polish cultural identity via Polish language Sunday schools and other religious-traditional activities. While the version of Catholicism practiced in Poland (as well as the diaspora) often results in the making of strong distinctions between “us” (Catholics) and “them” (non-Catholics), in recent years anti-Semitism has become one of the strongest markers of this cultural identity.[3] With regard to the recent protests against the NPSHS, the Parisian Polish community, unified around Polish Catholic Mission, seems to have been mobilized by Fr. Jeż to protest against what they perceived as an attack on good image of Poland.". I will note that she cites a book by professor Joanna Tokarska-Bakir (cultural anthropologist, literary scholar, and religious studies scholar - chair of the ethnic and national relations study at the Polish Academy of Sciences's Institute of Slavic Studies.) - for this. This is a domain expert, back up by a citation by another domain expert, used in an attributed manner (which probably actually is not required). I will note that, as the source notes, those disrupting the conference were led by a senior Roman Catholic priest - which may be the reason this expert source considers this relevant.
Some editors apparently want to ban all Polish editors and continue their anti-Polish campaign without any resistance. Writing trash is on eof the methods. The name of the page is biased and misinforms. The name of the conference was different. I agree that the conference wasn't notable so the only notable fact was the critics succesfully banned by organizers.
Professor Ryszard Legutko has been invited by an US college and his lecture was banned when he alredy arrived from Europe. So the incident desrves at least Disruption of Ryszard Legutko's lecture. Similarly the former assault on a female college professor.08:05, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Opinions on renaming article to The New Polish School of Holocaust Scholarship (conference)? François Robere ( talk) 09:35, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
The weekly is published by pl:Leszek Bubel, it doesn't exist without Bubel. Bubel is persecuted and ridiculed in Poland, he has been examined by psychiatrists. Postmen refused to distribute his another paper, Empik refuses to distribute "Tylko Polska". I don't know any reader of the trash. Either the conference is anti-Polish, so "Tylko Polska" is notable, or the conference is academic so "Tylko Polska" isn't notable. Bubel has finished probably only a high school, so his opinions about academy aren't notable. Xx236 ( talk) 09:58, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
"The director of the Sejm Information Centre, Andrzej Grzegrzolka, initially said his office could not take action as the paper was being sold from kiosks inside the Sejm who were responsible for the choice of newspapers. He also suggested a court could .... However, Mr Grzegrzolka later announced his office would request the publication be removed from the Sejm’s press kit.. [7] So it was in some sort of press kit. Icewhiz ( talk) 12:24, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
"It's your task to prove the connection between texts in the issue. I don't know the weekly, but they probably publish an anti-Semitic article in any issue, so you invent things (WP:OR). Xx236 ( talk) 12:17, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your sincerity. I believe the authors weren't to shy to name their goal. so precisely. Do you know that the Germans designed and implemente dthe Holocaust? That they murdered about 1.7 milion of ethnic Poles? That the Germans punished any form of contact with Jews? According to this page the main goal of Poles was to kill or deliver Jews. Because they were anti-Semitic. Is this a Wikipedia or Antipolishpedia? Xx236 ( talk) 12:01, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
I merely attempt to summarize, paraphrase, and condense. Icewhiz ( talk) 12:19, 14 August 2019 (UTC)Among the subjects these academics have examined is the vexing question of the role played by Poles during World War II, both in turning Jews over to the German occupiers and in killing them. A newly published collection of Polish-language articles — comprising two volumes, each some 800 pages long, and called “Night Continues: The Fates of Jews in Selected Counties of Occupied Poland” — is among the fruits of their labors.
In any event - that's a PRIMARY description of the book, we're using a SECONDARY description that is furthermore SPECIFIC to this event. Icewhiz ( talk) 12:37, 14 August 2019 (UTC)The current group norms, anti-Semitism everywhere, and the mechanisms of social conformism did not favor this. The more we should admire those who were able to oppose not only German legal regulations, but also written and unwritten rules of group life. [break] The pronunciation of numbers is inexorable: two out of every three Jews seeking help - died. The studies contained in the volumes provide evidence indicating a significant - and greater than previously thought - scale of participation of Poles in the destruction of Jewish fellow citizens.
Yeah this part is clear attempt at WP:COATRACKing material that has been disputed elsewhere. It's WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:DISRUPTIVE. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 19:51, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
AFAICT only the French is available. François Robere ( talk) 15:25, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
The conference appears to be notable; not sure if this was tagged before it was moved. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 16:46, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
I am also concerned about notability of this, per WP:NEVENT. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:40, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
Please learn what is a confrence. It's not a "disruption", this page should inform about the conference. The alleged disruption is a detail. No lecture was canceled. Please compare cancellation of lecture of Ryszard Legutko in a US college. Xx236 ( talk) 07:08, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
How do you know that only nationalists protested? What about mathematicians? Grabowski uses false numbers. Xx236 ( talk) 09:11, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Please do not remove the notability tags since the concerns have not been addressed. The article fails WP:NOTNEWS and does not pass the WP:10YEARTEST. With one or two exceptions all the sources are from right around when the event happened. There has been no coverage of this in months.
Please also refrain from using false and misleading edit summaries such as here. Quote: "Seem to be resolved following page move. No reliable secondary sources have been produced to demonstrate any neutrality issue here"
The neutrality concerns most certainly have NOT been resolved as indicated on talk, and the fact that Icewhiz is blind reverting to "his" version [8] in violation of WP:OWN and WP:TEND. Also the edit summary fails to address the neutrality issue, yet the revert also removes the notability tag. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 10:33, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Umm no. This is also another instance where you used a false edit summary. The "blanket removal" occurred here - see the RED number with a big minus sign in front of it? It was done by Francois Robere. You then made the same "blanket removal" here (you and Francois Robere, once again, performed exactly the same edit).
Likewise, it's actually YOUR edit which has messed up formatting. See the lost little "{{" in your version?
If you have concerns about primary or OR then please articulate them properly. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 10:52, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
The conference was criticized for not allowing discussion and denying representation to scholars representing Institute of National Remembrance, an institution which was subject of lecture during the gathering [1].
Polish ambassador Jakub Kumoch and consul Markus Blechner in their official statement wrte that they requested recordings from the conference but were met with rejection, they did however received a private recording of the conference lasting 4 hours and 37 minutes in which no antisemitic slogans or shouting are visible, the only shouts visible are the ones directed at representative of Institue of National Rememberance. According to their statement the recording also shows organizers of the conference also tried to stop filming of the events [2]
he book has been criticized for using unreliable sources, for ignoring the context of Germany's draconian occupation policies and practices, for some authors' alleged personal interests, for selective treatment of witness statements (questioning Polish witnesses' statements, while taking at face value witness statements that were in line with authors' theses), and for presenting rumors and gossip as actual proven facts. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
References
I note that New Polish School of Holocaust Scholarship (conference) has exactly 0 results on google search. I propose to merge this with Polish Center for Holocaust Research which already has a section about the conference. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 22:56, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
This page was nominated by its author for DYK on 18 August. As a neutral observer I agree that as is the text pushes a point of view in a manner incompatible with encyclopedic presentation. My recommendation would be to shorten the text by at least 40%. Though I've eliminated a few, there are still far too many repetitions, for example. I also think it is inappropriate to provide translated titles without including the originals. If a Polish speaker could fix the Polish references (the embassy, for example) into a "proper" {{cite web}} template, it would be helpful. Festina lente ! 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 20:13, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Any reason to keep this template? What problems are there with neutrality? François Robere ( talk) 12:07, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Almost at the same time as the NZZ published the text of Mr Croitoru, the Ministry of Culture of the Republic of Poland granted the Grabowski Group a grant for the magazine it edited.
Revisionism is a test of our tolerance and democracy. Considering that our country subsidizes the books of Prof. Grabowski, as well as all other well-founded research projects, we think that Poland passed this test pretty well.
What is the source of the category? The lead says conference. Promotion of opinions is not always academic. Xx236 ( talk) 08:25, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
This is not about Xx236, answer is point. Slatersteven ( talk) 15:03, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
conference of Polish scholars of the Holocaust. Can you explain how this does not mean "academic"? The second source specifically says "academic conference". I see no synth going on here.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 19:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
Aside from being written in a tendentious over-the-top POV manner, the article fails the ten year test and does not satisfy Wikipedia criteria for notability. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 06:30, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
WP:NOTNEWS as well. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 06:30, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
The article is one sided and uses extreme language. For example:
-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 20:52, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
"As has been widely reported, the nationalist regime leading Poland since 2015 has pushed back against researchers who have turned up facts that are seen as blackening the good name of the Polish nation. Even after it was modified, a law passed in early 2018 made it illegal to publicly ascribe any Holocaust complicity to the Polish nation or people. ". Nor is this language particular to this source - see e.g. [5].
"In the Polish case, the best organized of these groups are Roman Catholics. Emigres of this group benefit from the institutional support of the Church in which parishes maintain Polish cultural identity via Polish language Sunday schools and other religious-traditional activities. While the version of Catholicism practiced in Poland (as well as the diaspora) often results in the making of strong distinctions between “us” (Catholics) and “them” (non-Catholics), in recent years anti-Semitism has become one of the strongest markers of this cultural identity.[3] With regard to the recent protests against the NPSHS, the Parisian Polish community, unified around Polish Catholic Mission, seems to have been mobilized by Fr. Jeż to protest against what they perceived as an attack on good image of Poland.". I will note that she cites a book by professor Joanna Tokarska-Bakir (cultural anthropologist, literary scholar, and religious studies scholar - chair of the ethnic and national relations study at the Polish Academy of Sciences's Institute of Slavic Studies.) - for this. This is a domain expert, back up by a citation by another domain expert, used in an attributed manner (which probably actually is not required). I will note that, as the source notes, those disrupting the conference were led by a senior Roman Catholic priest - which may be the reason this expert source considers this relevant.
Some editors apparently want to ban all Polish editors and continue their anti-Polish campaign without any resistance. Writing trash is on eof the methods. The name of the page is biased and misinforms. The name of the conference was different. I agree that the conference wasn't notable so the only notable fact was the critics succesfully banned by organizers.
Professor Ryszard Legutko has been invited by an US college and his lecture was banned when he alredy arrived from Europe. So the incident desrves at least Disruption of Ryszard Legutko's lecture. Similarly the former assault on a female college professor.08:05, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Opinions on renaming article to The New Polish School of Holocaust Scholarship (conference)? François Robere ( talk) 09:35, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
The weekly is published by pl:Leszek Bubel, it doesn't exist without Bubel. Bubel is persecuted and ridiculed in Poland, he has been examined by psychiatrists. Postmen refused to distribute his another paper, Empik refuses to distribute "Tylko Polska". I don't know any reader of the trash. Either the conference is anti-Polish, so "Tylko Polska" is notable, or the conference is academic so "Tylko Polska" isn't notable. Bubel has finished probably only a high school, so his opinions about academy aren't notable. Xx236 ( talk) 09:58, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
"The director of the Sejm Information Centre, Andrzej Grzegrzolka, initially said his office could not take action as the paper was being sold from kiosks inside the Sejm who were responsible for the choice of newspapers. He also suggested a court could .... However, Mr Grzegrzolka later announced his office would request the publication be removed from the Sejm’s press kit.. [7] So it was in some sort of press kit. Icewhiz ( talk) 12:24, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
"It's your task to prove the connection between texts in the issue. I don't know the weekly, but they probably publish an anti-Semitic article in any issue, so you invent things (WP:OR). Xx236 ( talk) 12:17, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your sincerity. I believe the authors weren't to shy to name their goal. so precisely. Do you know that the Germans designed and implemente dthe Holocaust? That they murdered about 1.7 milion of ethnic Poles? That the Germans punished any form of contact with Jews? According to this page the main goal of Poles was to kill or deliver Jews. Because they were anti-Semitic. Is this a Wikipedia or Antipolishpedia? Xx236 ( talk) 12:01, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
I merely attempt to summarize, paraphrase, and condense. Icewhiz ( talk) 12:19, 14 August 2019 (UTC)Among the subjects these academics have examined is the vexing question of the role played by Poles during World War II, both in turning Jews over to the German occupiers and in killing them. A newly published collection of Polish-language articles — comprising two volumes, each some 800 pages long, and called “Night Continues: The Fates of Jews in Selected Counties of Occupied Poland” — is among the fruits of their labors.
In any event - that's a PRIMARY description of the book, we're using a SECONDARY description that is furthermore SPECIFIC to this event. Icewhiz ( talk) 12:37, 14 August 2019 (UTC)The current group norms, anti-Semitism everywhere, and the mechanisms of social conformism did not favor this. The more we should admire those who were able to oppose not only German legal regulations, but also written and unwritten rules of group life. [break] The pronunciation of numbers is inexorable: two out of every three Jews seeking help - died. The studies contained in the volumes provide evidence indicating a significant - and greater than previously thought - scale of participation of Poles in the destruction of Jewish fellow citizens.
Yeah this part is clear attempt at WP:COATRACKing material that has been disputed elsewhere. It's WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:DISRUPTIVE. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 19:51, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
AFAICT only the French is available. François Robere ( talk) 15:25, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
The conference appears to be notable; not sure if this was tagged before it was moved. -- K.e.coffman ( talk) 16:46, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
I am also concerned about notability of this, per WP:NEVENT. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:40, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
Please learn what is a confrence. It's not a "disruption", this page should inform about the conference. The alleged disruption is a detail. No lecture was canceled. Please compare cancellation of lecture of Ryszard Legutko in a US college. Xx236 ( talk) 07:08, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
How do you know that only nationalists protested? What about mathematicians? Grabowski uses false numbers. Xx236 ( talk) 09:11, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Please do not remove the notability tags since the concerns have not been addressed. The article fails WP:NOTNEWS and does not pass the WP:10YEARTEST. With one or two exceptions all the sources are from right around when the event happened. There has been no coverage of this in months.
Please also refrain from using false and misleading edit summaries such as here. Quote: "Seem to be resolved following page move. No reliable secondary sources have been produced to demonstrate any neutrality issue here"
The neutrality concerns most certainly have NOT been resolved as indicated on talk, and the fact that Icewhiz is blind reverting to "his" version [8] in violation of WP:OWN and WP:TEND. Also the edit summary fails to address the neutrality issue, yet the revert also removes the notability tag. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 10:33, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Umm no. This is also another instance where you used a false edit summary. The "blanket removal" occurred here - see the RED number with a big minus sign in front of it? It was done by Francois Robere. You then made the same "blanket removal" here (you and Francois Robere, once again, performed exactly the same edit).
Likewise, it's actually YOUR edit which has messed up formatting. See the lost little "{{" in your version?
If you have concerns about primary or OR then please articulate them properly. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 10:52, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
The conference was criticized for not allowing discussion and denying representation to scholars representing Institute of National Remembrance, an institution which was subject of lecture during the gathering [1].
Polish ambassador Jakub Kumoch and consul Markus Blechner in their official statement wrte that they requested recordings from the conference but were met with rejection, they did however received a private recording of the conference lasting 4 hours and 37 minutes in which no antisemitic slogans or shouting are visible, the only shouts visible are the ones directed at representative of Institue of National Rememberance. According to their statement the recording also shows organizers of the conference also tried to stop filming of the events [2]
he book has been criticized for using unreliable sources, for ignoring the context of Germany's draconian occupation policies and practices, for some authors' alleged personal interests, for selective treatment of witness statements (questioning Polish witnesses' statements, while taking at face value witness statements that were in line with authors' theses), and for presenting rumors and gossip as actual proven facts. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
References
I note that New Polish School of Holocaust Scholarship (conference) has exactly 0 results on google search. I propose to merge this with Polish Center for Holocaust Research which already has a section about the conference. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 22:56, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
This page was nominated by its author for DYK on 18 August. As a neutral observer I agree that as is the text pushes a point of view in a manner incompatible with encyclopedic presentation. My recommendation would be to shorten the text by at least 40%. Though I've eliminated a few, there are still far too many repetitions, for example. I also think it is inappropriate to provide translated titles without including the originals. If a Polish speaker could fix the Polish references (the embassy, for example) into a "proper" {{cite web}} template, it would be helpful. Festina lente ! 🌿 SashiRolls t · c 20:13, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
Any reason to keep this template? What problems are there with neutrality? François Robere ( talk) 12:07, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Almost at the same time as the NZZ published the text of Mr Croitoru, the Ministry of Culture of the Republic of Poland granted the Grabowski Group a grant for the magazine it edited.
Revisionism is a test of our tolerance and democracy. Considering that our country subsidizes the books of Prof. Grabowski, as well as all other well-founded research projects, we think that Poland passed this test pretty well.
What is the source of the category? The lead says conference. Promotion of opinions is not always academic. Xx236 ( talk) 08:25, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
This is not about Xx236, answer is point. Slatersteven ( talk) 15:03, 1 October 2019 (UTC)
conference of Polish scholars of the Holocaust. Can you explain how this does not mean "academic"? The second source specifically says "academic conference". I see no synth going on here.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 19:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)