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I will try to work on this page in the next few months, all those who are interested are invited to join forces. It is clear that in the 1990s a new painting emerges in Europe with clear connections to American legacy of painting and to European history and questions of archive and traces of the war, and it is clearly different than other categories of painting of that time. This new kind of painting slowly begins in the 1970 in close relations to photography, reaches maturity during the 1980s-1990s, continues into the 21st century and become a distinct infleunce on a new generation of painters. We will have to examine its connection to question of archive - so to artists like Christian Boltanski for example and Jochen Gerz, and to the questions of abstract and color field Artethical ( talk) 02:02, 10 March 2010 (UTC) Artethical ( talk) 01:35, 10 March 2010 (UTC) Artethical ( talk) 11:18, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
there are 2 real movements in europe that wikipedia ignored. one is the "archivist" art (connected to the new painting) and one is the new painting which is usually concerned as connected to photography, xerox and new madia, also ignored by wikipedia . this new painting is documented in thousands of essays, and in fact; take for example Richter, it is not included in any category and it is surely not the new expressionism and it is this special tendency. I too hesitated about the title - we will need some patience on all this, to build this correctly, as it will take time. I am adding Dumas and Ofili for the moment, feel free to add more - and the references will slowly follow in a joint effort. Artethical ( talk) 15:36, 10 March 2010 (UTC) I agree that perhaps it is not "European" but perhaps simple "New Painting". I am not sure about this yet - it is defined differently in different sources - from New Painting to "New European Painting". There is also the move of "Archive Art" which is already clearly marked in contemporry art history and hasn't a category in Wikipedia. Artethical ( talk) 15:41, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
This article appears to be a violation of WP:NOR, namely "any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position", namely a specific art movement that has certain parameters, which therefore include and exclude particular artists. I'm not disputing that there is valid information which has a place on wiki (somewhere), but I am questioning the current way it is being used and presented. Please present a proposal for a way forward, as the article is ripe for AfD at the moment. Foreign language sources are acceptable where no English language equivalent exists. Ty 20:31, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
First attempt to reply to the request for citations (If more is needed I will continue the research). According to the historical book that accompanied the exhibition Face a l'Histoire in Pompidou Centre, Paris [Centre george Pompidou / Flammarion, 1996, that suggested a certain organising of Europen art into periods from 1933 onward with Curators Jean-Paul Ameline, Brigitte Leal, Marc Bormand (1960-1979) and Chris Dercon (1980-1996)], the period 1980-1996 in painting, with emphasize on Richter and on Ettinger, opens a new page. Each of these two opens a different new page. The arguments are in pp. 535-547 of the book. Citation below. I begin with actual citation is in Amir Khatib, editorial in page 22 of a recent Universal Colours 4-5, 2009: "Ettinger is associated with contemporary painting (Richter, Tuymans) and with "archivist" research in art (Messager, Boltanski)" at < http://www.eu-man.org/magazine/409.pdf>. Quotations by art historian Griselda Pollock): "Bracha L. Ettinger's artistic ouevre has already gained major historical significance " (in Introduction, The Matrixial Borderspace, 2006, p. 25.) In the French version of this book from 1999 she writes (translated freely): "The influence of her oeuvre is already considerable...source of considerable inspiration for the young generation of artists...artistic practice with major historical implications that radically opens new perspective... that inscribes her in the most distinguished milieu of contemporary artists that deal with trauma, memory..." (p. 7-8). And: "painting after painting...interrupting the reproduction process of photocopy... using potocopic dust...This movement takes roots of necessity in a moment of rupture. . . in modernity. . . With this work (Ettinger in 1985) started a long meditation on...the atrocities of History". Griselda Pollock, in Face a l'Histoire (Centre G. Pompidou, Paris, 1996, pages 535-540), p. 538. See also University of Puerto Rico at < http://cmcep.uprrp.edu/Bracha_Ettinger/index.html> Quotations by Stefan Germer on Gerhard Richter, in Face a l'Histoire (Centre G. Pompidou, Paris, 1996, pages 544-547, freely translated): "The point of departure of most of Richter's ouevres is the exact transcription of photographic sources on canvas, but its form of painting emerges exclusively from the destruction of the basic material... when it opens a certain distance from the photographic interpretation...Painting affirms itself vis-a-vis photography. . .these paintings...escapes our quick categories...". See also Gerhard Richter on the site of Staatliche Kunstsammlungen: "Gerhard Richter counts among the world's most important and at the same time most popular contemporary artists. His oeuvre has had a not inconsiderable influence on younger generations of artists." (Staatliche Kunstsammlungen) < http://www.skd-dresden.de/en/info/Gerhard_Richter_Archiv/gerhard_richter.html>. I still look for appropriate quotations for Tuymans. Artethical ( talk) 14:41, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
None of this addresses the post I made above, which I repeat: "This article appears to be a violation of WP:NOR, namely 'any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position', namely a specific art movement that has certain parameters, which therefore include and exclude particular artists. I'm not disputing that there is valid information which has a place on wiki (somewhere), but I am questioning the current way it is being used and presented. Please present a proposal for a way forward, as the article is ripe for AfD at the moment."
I am not contesting individual points made about Ettinger or about Richter, but about the synthesis of these points along with others to present a coherent theory of a definable movement. Unless this theory has been made explicitly by significant sources, it cannot be the basis for an article.
There could be some other basis for an article to include these points, e.g. "European painting since 1980" (this is just an example, not a suggestion), but that would encompass other tendencies also, not just those which the current article is aiming for.
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I will try to work on this page in the next few months, all those who are interested are invited to join forces. It is clear that in the 1990s a new painting emerges in Europe with clear connections to American legacy of painting and to European history and questions of archive and traces of the war, and it is clearly different than other categories of painting of that time. This new kind of painting slowly begins in the 1970 in close relations to photography, reaches maturity during the 1980s-1990s, continues into the 21st century and become a distinct infleunce on a new generation of painters. We will have to examine its connection to question of archive - so to artists like Christian Boltanski for example and Jochen Gerz, and to the questions of abstract and color field Artethical ( talk) 02:02, 10 March 2010 (UTC) Artethical ( talk) 01:35, 10 March 2010 (UTC) Artethical ( talk) 11:18, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
there are 2 real movements in europe that wikipedia ignored. one is the "archivist" art (connected to the new painting) and one is the new painting which is usually concerned as connected to photography, xerox and new madia, also ignored by wikipedia . this new painting is documented in thousands of essays, and in fact; take for example Richter, it is not included in any category and it is surely not the new expressionism and it is this special tendency. I too hesitated about the title - we will need some patience on all this, to build this correctly, as it will take time. I am adding Dumas and Ofili for the moment, feel free to add more - and the references will slowly follow in a joint effort. Artethical ( talk) 15:36, 10 March 2010 (UTC) I agree that perhaps it is not "European" but perhaps simple "New Painting". I am not sure about this yet - it is defined differently in different sources - from New Painting to "New European Painting". There is also the move of "Archive Art" which is already clearly marked in contemporry art history and hasn't a category in Wikipedia. Artethical ( talk) 15:41, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
This article appears to be a violation of WP:NOR, namely "any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position", namely a specific art movement that has certain parameters, which therefore include and exclude particular artists. I'm not disputing that there is valid information which has a place on wiki (somewhere), but I am questioning the current way it is being used and presented. Please present a proposal for a way forward, as the article is ripe for AfD at the moment. Foreign language sources are acceptable where no English language equivalent exists. Ty 20:31, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
First attempt to reply to the request for citations (If more is needed I will continue the research). According to the historical book that accompanied the exhibition Face a l'Histoire in Pompidou Centre, Paris [Centre george Pompidou / Flammarion, 1996, that suggested a certain organising of Europen art into periods from 1933 onward with Curators Jean-Paul Ameline, Brigitte Leal, Marc Bormand (1960-1979) and Chris Dercon (1980-1996)], the period 1980-1996 in painting, with emphasize on Richter and on Ettinger, opens a new page. Each of these two opens a different new page. The arguments are in pp. 535-547 of the book. Citation below. I begin with actual citation is in Amir Khatib, editorial in page 22 of a recent Universal Colours 4-5, 2009: "Ettinger is associated with contemporary painting (Richter, Tuymans) and with "archivist" research in art (Messager, Boltanski)" at < http://www.eu-man.org/magazine/409.pdf>. Quotations by art historian Griselda Pollock): "Bracha L. Ettinger's artistic ouevre has already gained major historical significance " (in Introduction, The Matrixial Borderspace, 2006, p. 25.) In the French version of this book from 1999 she writes (translated freely): "The influence of her oeuvre is already considerable...source of considerable inspiration for the young generation of artists...artistic practice with major historical implications that radically opens new perspective... that inscribes her in the most distinguished milieu of contemporary artists that deal with trauma, memory..." (p. 7-8). And: "painting after painting...interrupting the reproduction process of photocopy... using potocopic dust...This movement takes roots of necessity in a moment of rupture. . . in modernity. . . With this work (Ettinger in 1985) started a long meditation on...the atrocities of History". Griselda Pollock, in Face a l'Histoire (Centre G. Pompidou, Paris, 1996, pages 535-540), p. 538. See also University of Puerto Rico at < http://cmcep.uprrp.edu/Bracha_Ettinger/index.html> Quotations by Stefan Germer on Gerhard Richter, in Face a l'Histoire (Centre G. Pompidou, Paris, 1996, pages 544-547, freely translated): "The point of departure of most of Richter's ouevres is the exact transcription of photographic sources on canvas, but its form of painting emerges exclusively from the destruction of the basic material... when it opens a certain distance from the photographic interpretation...Painting affirms itself vis-a-vis photography. . .these paintings...escapes our quick categories...". See also Gerhard Richter on the site of Staatliche Kunstsammlungen: "Gerhard Richter counts among the world's most important and at the same time most popular contemporary artists. His oeuvre has had a not inconsiderable influence on younger generations of artists." (Staatliche Kunstsammlungen) < http://www.skd-dresden.de/en/info/Gerhard_Richter_Archiv/gerhard_richter.html>. I still look for appropriate quotations for Tuymans. Artethical ( talk) 14:41, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
None of this addresses the post I made above, which I repeat: "This article appears to be a violation of WP:NOR, namely 'any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position', namely a specific art movement that has certain parameters, which therefore include and exclude particular artists. I'm not disputing that there is valid information which has a place on wiki (somewhere), but I am questioning the current way it is being used and presented. Please present a proposal for a way forward, as the article is ripe for AfD at the moment."
I am not contesting individual points made about Ettinger or about Richter, but about the synthesis of these points along with others to present a coherent theory of a definable movement. Unless this theory has been made explicitly by significant sources, it cannot be the basis for an article.
There could be some other basis for an article to include these points, e.g. "European painting since 1980" (this is just an example, not a suggestion), but that would encompass other tendencies also, not just those which the current article is aiming for.
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
New European Painting. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
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nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 07:59, 25 February 2016 (UTC)