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Krzyzowiec removed a valid source with the comment "We can't include informations from Jewish organizations". Why in the world would this be the case? Is everything that he does not like or meet his POV an invalid source? ABANumber ( talk) 19:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
What vandalism ? Stop making POV and everything will be ok. I don't care about some organization/s from Israel who trying to show Poland and patriotic organizations as Nazi. No, we don't make Holocaust in Poland.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 02:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Piotrus for restoring the references —Preceding unsigned comment added by ABANumber ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
And what now ?
http://www.nacjonalista.pl/wiadomosci.php?id=3832
Polish Court in Strzelce Opolskie described Roman Salute as a patriotic acting which has nothing common to do with the Nazi's Salute. Read the link, I told you that I don't care about opinion of Israeli Organizations as long as they are not in Poland and they make propaganda. Polish law can make a law not israeli nor american organizations.
This is exactly what ONR, NOP members do - Roman salute, this is what Nazis do - Hitler salute. top making the propaganda about Poland.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 20:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Logo of ONR was a Falanga, not Chrobry Sword. Chrory sword was a symbol of National Democracy! Chrobry sword: http://www.nacjonalista.org/images/newsy/19976210664683decebab0d.jpg Crux16
Why is ONR considered to be fascist organization.It is NATIONAL RADICALIST organization, not fascist!Stop repeating left winged propaganda! StrumykNR ( talk) 13:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Lilek404 ( talk) 18:50, 19 February 2013 (UTC) Hello. "Wikipedia is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a neutral point of view. Your recent edit to National Radical Camp seemed less than neutral to me"
For first and second You have added refers to books about fascism in general, not about polish national movement in 1919-1939, which was very specific. As I can see, mentions about this movement do not refer to any books, declarations or reports from this time in Poland. In fact, Aristotle Kallis author of "Genocide and Fascism; The Eliminationist Drive in Fascist Europe" refers mainly to other author Jerzy Holzer (additionally, to his book from 1977 and every kid in Poland knows that historic books from time of PRL should always be doubted ;)). Much more useful would be "Krew i honor. Działalność bojówkarska ONR w Warszawie w latach 1934-1939" of Miłosz Sosnowski, which describes properly agressive activity of Radical National Camp, taking into account whole historic context. In fact, in Poland before 1939 there was no Jew pogroms... all political and ethnic groups fought with each other on streets and universities. Especially on universities. But never to death... Third point does not add any objective or academic fact. So-called szmalcowniks were divers betrayers from random groups, random families, their crimes were never justified by polish official parties or groups like ONR. National Radical Camp was anti-nazi. How did it come that You haven't read about it, since it was written in many texts of ONR members? Or maybe You did, but then why don't You refer to them? And why on earth have You considered refer to Jan Mosdorf's book "Wczoraj i dziś" not neutral? It is there when he says:
We [Polish nationalists] are not fascists, nor Hitlerites, for we are a native Polish movement, independent of foreign views. Additionally, we do not see ourselves as fascists or Nazis due to the many weaknesses, and even sins, these movements carry. These are not examples we would want to follow.- Jan Mosdorf "Wczoraj i Jutro", 1938
I haven't even added my opinion... but a simple, actual clarification of suggestions that You served as facts. On the other hand, how on earth anti-socialist and anti-totalitarian party would get 'nazified'? in 3 months of its existence? Have You noticed that You are talking about organisation formed in Poland - whose mortal enemy for 1000 years have been invariably... Germany? ONR never identified with Nazis. ONR never declared collaboration with Nazis. Nazis killed ONR members, as You have written Yourself. Also deletion of my mention about sanation can't be explained by being "less than neutral". Opposition of ONR to Piłsudki's policy was a very important element of their activity! Much more important than anti-semitic opinions. By the way, if You claim that some of ONR members had seen Jews as main threat to Poland, why don't You quote? Who is "some"? Because again, objective historic sources (like words of ONR members themselves) call Hitler and Nazis the main threat. Why haven't You included it in the article?
I'm sorry that I have edited this article about "ONR presumed as Jews killers", basing on books treating actually about Radical National Camp as it really was, not as it "was considered by 2 authors that aren't even talking about this topic".
So, other books to propose:
Biographies, articles, quotes, reports... very little of "POV".
"although it only had a few members"
It's not in the given source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.168.69.225 ( talk) 07:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
I quote the following excerpt from the text of the article:
Largely based on university campuses, it followed a policy of anti-Semitism and although it only had a few members[6] from this basis launched attacks on Jewish students and businesses.[7] Left-wing activists were also as part of this violent activity.[1]
I am questioning the meaning of the last sentence: does it mean that left-wing activists were also attacked by the Falanga, or that the Left-wing activists also took part in attacking Jewish students and businesses? I am guessing it is the former, not the latter, but since I do not have access to the source cited (I tried Google & Amazon; no luck at finding page 523!), I have no way of determining this. I believe the sentence should be reworded to eliminate this ambiguity, or else removed altogether (especially if it is intending to state that Left-wing activists attacked Jews too, because this has no place in the flow of the article, which is supposed to be about the National Radical Camp Falanga. It's tantamount to having an article about cheese, describing how it tastes, and then saying "Ice cream tastes creamy too!". It sounds like whoever inserted that is trying to downplay the severity of what the Falanga did by spreading the blame, or at the very least, taking any and every opportunity to malign Leftists). Shanoman ( talk) 00:17, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
This "stub" is worthless. There are no nazis in ONR, I know this people, they hate nazis! The founder of ONR, Jan Mosdorf was killed in Auschwitz-Birkenau. If you say that this people are nazis, you simply no nothing about Poland and are history. prof. Siekierski —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.24.175.97 ( talk) 22:11, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Again all sources are ONLY from Jewish Institute. ONR members can't be Nazi because their ancestors fought nazis in organziations such as NSZ or ZWZ (many ONR members fought in these organizations). Modern ONR is not a succesor of pre-war organization (Court Law). I will put POV because MORDOR will anyway do whatever he want so.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 04:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
The Stephen Roth Institute, Jewish.org. Plz, highly POV. One point of view is against the rules. This is not your play ground pal.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 15:14, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
You seem to miss the point, realiably sourced statements are not against the rules per
WP:RS;
WP:FRINGE views on the other hand should not be represented at all.
M0RD00R (
talk) 15:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Now is NPOV. Why won't u do like that in every article ?
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 22:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The National Radical Camp (Polish: Obóz Narodowo Radykalny, ONR) is a Polish nationalist youth Neo-Nazi movement.
How come ONR is a neo-nazi movement? ONR was created in '30s and recreated in 1993. ONR members fought during the war against Nazis. ONR's political and ideological platform is Endecja - pre war Polish nationalistic thought where many ONR members were killed by the Nazis for example Jan Mosdorf who helped Jews in concentration camp. ONR don't do any 'neo-nazi' related actions because they hate Nazis for what they did in Poland from '39 to '45. -- DumnyPolak ( talk) 01:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
don't tell lies nazi. why you listen to 88, make "rome greetings" on your meting and use fascistic emblems? you will be wiped out from poland, nazi scum — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.43.1.43 ( talk) 01:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
The recent changes to this article by User:Kaskusia, [1], violate Wikipedia policies on reliable sources ( WP:RS) as well as WP:NPOV. Primary sources such as the organization's website or its facebook page should not be used in this article.
Please do not restore this material and these sources again. Volunteer Marek 00:50, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
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I have just modified one external link on National Radical Camp (1993). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I hereby propose merging this article with National Radical Camp (1934) and National Radical Camp Falanga. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 19:06, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
I inserted the NPOV tag to the article after recent edits by User:Neutrality, who removed relevant sources from the article. Particularly troubling is the rewriting of the section on the pre-war ONR. The paragraph clearly stated that some historians consider the 1930s ONR a fascist movement, some not and some call it a "nazified" entity. After "Neutrality's" edits, only the "nazified" part stayed. I don't see a reason to omit the referenced opinion by well-respected scholar, historian Prof. Andrzej Friszke, just for the reason of "we need something newer than 1989 book". Historians with the highest academic level in Poland are omitted, while The Guardian journalists are being cited freely. That hardly creates a neutral piece of WP article. - Darwinek ( talk) 22:41, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Do other authors have the same view as Friszke? My concern is WP:WEIGHT here. Neutrality talk 23:09, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
And just for the record — the citation to The Guardian that I inserted replaced citations to the group’s own website and to “Teen Vogue” — I think it’s hard to credibly argue that that’s not an improvement. Neutrality talk 23:14, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Is there any evidence Polish courts said the modern NRC are not fascist. If so we should mention it. Slatersteven ( talk) 15:57, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Krzyzowiec removed a valid source with the comment "We can't include informations from Jewish organizations". Why in the world would this be the case? Is everything that he does not like or meet his POV an invalid source? ABANumber ( talk) 19:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
What vandalism ? Stop making POV and everything will be ok. I don't care about some organization/s from Israel who trying to show Poland and patriotic organizations as Nazi. No, we don't make Holocaust in Poland.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 02:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Piotrus for restoring the references —Preceding unsigned comment added by ABANumber ( talk • contribs) 01:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
And what now ?
http://www.nacjonalista.pl/wiadomosci.php?id=3832
Polish Court in Strzelce Opolskie described Roman Salute as a patriotic acting which has nothing common to do with the Nazi's Salute. Read the link, I told you that I don't care about opinion of Israeli Organizations as long as they are not in Poland and they make propaganda. Polish law can make a law not israeli nor american organizations.
This is exactly what ONR, NOP members do - Roman salute, this is what Nazis do - Hitler salute. top making the propaganda about Poland.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 20:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Logo of ONR was a Falanga, not Chrobry Sword. Chrory sword was a symbol of National Democracy! Chrobry sword: http://www.nacjonalista.org/images/newsy/19976210664683decebab0d.jpg Crux16
Why is ONR considered to be fascist organization.It is NATIONAL RADICALIST organization, not fascist!Stop repeating left winged propaganda! StrumykNR ( talk) 13:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Lilek404 ( talk) 18:50, 19 February 2013 (UTC) Hello. "Wikipedia is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a neutral point of view. Your recent edit to National Radical Camp seemed less than neutral to me"
For first and second You have added refers to books about fascism in general, not about polish national movement in 1919-1939, which was very specific. As I can see, mentions about this movement do not refer to any books, declarations or reports from this time in Poland. In fact, Aristotle Kallis author of "Genocide and Fascism; The Eliminationist Drive in Fascist Europe" refers mainly to other author Jerzy Holzer (additionally, to his book from 1977 and every kid in Poland knows that historic books from time of PRL should always be doubted ;)). Much more useful would be "Krew i honor. Działalność bojówkarska ONR w Warszawie w latach 1934-1939" of Miłosz Sosnowski, which describes properly agressive activity of Radical National Camp, taking into account whole historic context. In fact, in Poland before 1939 there was no Jew pogroms... all political and ethnic groups fought with each other on streets and universities. Especially on universities. But never to death... Third point does not add any objective or academic fact. So-called szmalcowniks were divers betrayers from random groups, random families, their crimes were never justified by polish official parties or groups like ONR. National Radical Camp was anti-nazi. How did it come that You haven't read about it, since it was written in many texts of ONR members? Or maybe You did, but then why don't You refer to them? And why on earth have You considered refer to Jan Mosdorf's book "Wczoraj i dziś" not neutral? It is there when he says:
We [Polish nationalists] are not fascists, nor Hitlerites, for we are a native Polish movement, independent of foreign views. Additionally, we do not see ourselves as fascists or Nazis due to the many weaknesses, and even sins, these movements carry. These are not examples we would want to follow.- Jan Mosdorf "Wczoraj i Jutro", 1938
I haven't even added my opinion... but a simple, actual clarification of suggestions that You served as facts. On the other hand, how on earth anti-socialist and anti-totalitarian party would get 'nazified'? in 3 months of its existence? Have You noticed that You are talking about organisation formed in Poland - whose mortal enemy for 1000 years have been invariably... Germany? ONR never identified with Nazis. ONR never declared collaboration with Nazis. Nazis killed ONR members, as You have written Yourself. Also deletion of my mention about sanation can't be explained by being "less than neutral". Opposition of ONR to Piłsudki's policy was a very important element of their activity! Much more important than anti-semitic opinions. By the way, if You claim that some of ONR members had seen Jews as main threat to Poland, why don't You quote? Who is "some"? Because again, objective historic sources (like words of ONR members themselves) call Hitler and Nazis the main threat. Why haven't You included it in the article?
I'm sorry that I have edited this article about "ONR presumed as Jews killers", basing on books treating actually about Radical National Camp as it really was, not as it "was considered by 2 authors that aren't even talking about this topic".
So, other books to propose:
Biographies, articles, quotes, reports... very little of "POV".
"although it only had a few members"
It's not in the given source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.168.69.225 ( talk) 07:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
I quote the following excerpt from the text of the article:
Largely based on university campuses, it followed a policy of anti-Semitism and although it only had a few members[6] from this basis launched attacks on Jewish students and businesses.[7] Left-wing activists were also as part of this violent activity.[1]
I am questioning the meaning of the last sentence: does it mean that left-wing activists were also attacked by the Falanga, or that the Left-wing activists also took part in attacking Jewish students and businesses? I am guessing it is the former, not the latter, but since I do not have access to the source cited (I tried Google & Amazon; no luck at finding page 523!), I have no way of determining this. I believe the sentence should be reworded to eliminate this ambiguity, or else removed altogether (especially if it is intending to state that Left-wing activists attacked Jews too, because this has no place in the flow of the article, which is supposed to be about the National Radical Camp Falanga. It's tantamount to having an article about cheese, describing how it tastes, and then saying "Ice cream tastes creamy too!". It sounds like whoever inserted that is trying to downplay the severity of what the Falanga did by spreading the blame, or at the very least, taking any and every opportunity to malign Leftists). Shanoman ( talk) 00:17, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
This "stub" is worthless. There are no nazis in ONR, I know this people, they hate nazis! The founder of ONR, Jan Mosdorf was killed in Auschwitz-Birkenau. If you say that this people are nazis, you simply no nothing about Poland and are history. prof. Siekierski —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.24.175.97 ( talk) 22:11, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Again all sources are ONLY from Jewish Institute. ONR members can't be Nazi because their ancestors fought nazis in organziations such as NSZ or ZWZ (many ONR members fought in these organizations). Modern ONR is not a succesor of pre-war organization (Court Law). I will put POV because MORDOR will anyway do whatever he want so.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 04:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
The Stephen Roth Institute, Jewish.org. Plz, highly POV. One point of view is against the rules. This is not your play ground pal.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 15:14, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
You seem to miss the point, realiably sourced statements are not against the rules per
WP:RS;
WP:FRINGE views on the other hand should not be represented at all.
M0RD00R (
talk) 15:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Now is NPOV. Why won't u do like that in every article ?
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 22:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
The National Radical Camp (Polish: Obóz Narodowo Radykalny, ONR) is a Polish nationalist youth Neo-Nazi movement.
How come ONR is a neo-nazi movement? ONR was created in '30s and recreated in 1993. ONR members fought during the war against Nazis. ONR's political and ideological platform is Endecja - pre war Polish nationalistic thought where many ONR members were killed by the Nazis for example Jan Mosdorf who helped Jews in concentration camp. ONR don't do any 'neo-nazi' related actions because they hate Nazis for what they did in Poland from '39 to '45. -- DumnyPolak ( talk) 01:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
don't tell lies nazi. why you listen to 88, make "rome greetings" on your meting and use fascistic emblems? you will be wiped out from poland, nazi scum — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.43.1.43 ( talk) 01:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
The recent changes to this article by User:Kaskusia, [1], violate Wikipedia policies on reliable sources ( WP:RS) as well as WP:NPOV. Primary sources such as the organization's website or its facebook page should not be used in this article.
Please do not restore this material and these sources again. Volunteer Marek 00:50, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on National Radical Camp (1993). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 04:04, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
I hereby propose merging this article with National Radical Camp (1934) and National Radical Camp Falanga. - Chumchum7 ( talk) 19:06, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
I inserted the NPOV tag to the article after recent edits by User:Neutrality, who removed relevant sources from the article. Particularly troubling is the rewriting of the section on the pre-war ONR. The paragraph clearly stated that some historians consider the 1930s ONR a fascist movement, some not and some call it a "nazified" entity. After "Neutrality's" edits, only the "nazified" part stayed. I don't see a reason to omit the referenced opinion by well-respected scholar, historian Prof. Andrzej Friszke, just for the reason of "we need something newer than 1989 book". Historians with the highest academic level in Poland are omitted, while The Guardian journalists are being cited freely. That hardly creates a neutral piece of WP article. - Darwinek ( talk) 22:41, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Do other authors have the same view as Friszke? My concern is WP:WEIGHT here. Neutrality talk 23:09, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
And just for the record — the citation to The Guardian that I inserted replaced citations to the group’s own website and to “Teen Vogue” — I think it’s hard to credibly argue that that’s not an improvement. Neutrality talk 23:14, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Is there any evidence Polish courts said the modern NRC are not fascist. If so we should mention it. Slatersteven ( talk) 15:57, 13 June 2019 (UTC)