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This is pretty rough to start with, and is mainly a matter of discharging long-accumulated notes into sections. Once the bulk of the material has been dumped, (others are welcome with their ballast), the idea would be to cut and prune it into thematic divisions, and then revise it stylistically. Finally wikify. Nishidani ( talk) 15:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Tiamat has organized the . I suggest the following structure is what we should aim at.
(1) Lead, defining the term (Done!)
(2) History
(3) The festival's structure
(a) Assembly and departure from Jerusalem, district represented (Hebron and Nablus has specific contingents, unless I misrecall)
(b) The journey to Nabi Musa
(c) The nature of the festival on site (3 days or five days?). Religious organisation, vows, feasting etc.
(d) The return to Jerusalem through the Jaffa gate(?) and dispersal.
(4) The development of it as a symbol of Palestinian identity and nationalism.
(5)Incidental material, and the Moses' stone.
If one can gather it, details on costume etc., and folkloric beliefs associated with it. Nishidani ( talk) 17:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
See from the British Department of Antiquities in Palestine a description of the Mamluk inscription at the site.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 01:22, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
Arminden ( talk) 03:35, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Zero0000: Hi. I'm happy to see more or more specific material and sources added, but for now I don't see what could be wrong with a short outline based on Emma Aubin-Boltanski. She wrote for Week in Pal. on the subject she was preparing her PhD thesis for. She's a PhD social anthropologist and senior researcher at the CNRS now, which is a very hard to reach position. I did write down all there was to say in the source details: Week in Pal. is restructuring the website, original URL is not available, but this other Palestinian website received the article a few months after publication. Have a great day, Arminden ( talk) 05:31, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
To editor Arminden: On the other hand, Halabi's paper is a fine source. Can you please point me to the place where Halabi says the procession was banned in 1937? I can't find it. You also added without source "The 1937 ban on the procession from Jerusalem would be largely upheld until the present day." and there is a later mention of 1937 too. The problem is that the procession from Jerusalem in 1938 was reported by several articles in the Palestine Post. These articles say that the procession was smaller than in previous years because contingents from some towns like Hebron chose to not take part. That is quite different (and more interesting) than the procession being banned (unless "banned" does not mean "banned by the authorities"). (The PP website just went down; I'll write more when it comes back.) Zero talk 07:23, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
(PP is back). In 1939 there was no Nabi Musa procession but it is not reported as banned. There was also no Palm Sunday procession by the Christian churches. In 1940 it was reported that the ulemas of the former Sharia Court decided to hold Nabi Musa ceremonies but not a procession. A few days later, a small procession was reported. No mention of a ban in either article. In 1941, ceremonies but no procession. In 1942, only a local procession. The 1941–1942 articles mention pilgrims from Jerusalem with their banners, and high British official guests, but they don't actually say there was a procession from Jerusalem.
On the other hand, on 16 Apr 1943, PP reported a procession from Jerusalem. It is worth quoting: "The annual Nebi Musa celebrations began in Jerusalem yesterday when the Nablus contingent arrived in the morning and moved in traditional procession from Sheikh Jarah to Haram es Sharif via Damascus Gate. Village contingents will continue to arrive throughout today carrying banners and visiting the mosque before embarking on the pilgrimage to Nebi Musa. Jaffa and Ramle villagers arriving by train will march from the Railway Station through the Old City Suk and will link up with the Jerusalem contingent after the latter receive the banners from the District Commissioner.
" It also says that in the previous few years the Nablus contingent didn't come since the money had dried up when the mufti left. There is a follow-up on Apr 19. From this we learn that in 1943 there was a procession and it had government approval. In 1944 there is an eyewitness account of someone who travelled from Jerusalem with a group of dervishes who played kettledrums and cymbals. In 1945 there is something about Nebi Musa lying in "Controlled Area No. 3", whatever that means. However, permission must have been given as festivities at Nebi Musa were reported (though it says the notables came from Jerusalem by car). In 1946, large festivities in Jerusalem and Nebi Musa report, but whether anyone walked to Nebi Musa is unclear (mention of cars, buses and taxis). There was a "long procession" bringing the banners back to Jerusalem. In 1947, "the Moslem Nebi Musa procession from Jerusalem to Jericho on Friday was attended by fewer pilgrims than usual", but a large party of government and military officials attended. In 1948, no procession was mentioned. On 15 Apr 1949, PP reported "For the first time in almost eight centuries and indeed since the Nebi Musa pilgrimage was first introduced by Salah-ed-Din, there will be no Zafah procession this year".
We aren't allowed to craft an article out of newspaper reports, but they serve as a sanity check. It is certainly not true that the procession ceased in 1937, nor is it true that it was banned then.
Zero
talk
08:58, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
To sum up what is not very clear yet.
MAQAM, PILGRIMAGE
INHABITANTS, LANDS
"Around 1820, the Ottoman authorities had to almost fully rebuild the shrine complex, which had, over the previous centuries, fallen into a grave state of dilapidated disrepair.[see Murphy-O'Connor] In addition, they promoted a festive pilgrimage to the shrine that would always coincide with the Orthodox Christian celebration of Easter, creating a counter-balance to the Christian ceremonial activity in the city.[see Murphy-O'Connor] This 'invention of tradition', as such imaginative constructs are called,[see Hobsbawm] made the pageantry of the Nabi Musa pilgrimage a potent symbol of both political and religious identity among Muslims from the outset of the modern period.[see Friedland & Hecht, Murphy-O'Connor]"
Questions:
And here is the answer, at least for the 16th century, with less detail for later times: <ref>{{cite book |last= Cohen |first= Amnon |title= Al-Nabi Musa – an Ottoman festival (''mawsim'') resurrected? |pages= 34-44 |editor= David J Wasserstein, Ami Ayalon |work= Mamluks and Ottomans: Studies in Honour of Michael Winter |publisher= Routledge |series= Routledge Studies in Middle Eastern History |year= 2013 |edition= reprint |isbn= 9781136579172 |url= https://books.google.com/books?id=SMGSTgfU7CQC&pg=PA34 |access-date= 22 April 2021}}</ref> I have already used another article from this book as a source for the Baibars inscription (goes beyond Meyer's), and there might be more very useful material. Arminden ( talk) 02:28, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
To editor Arminden: Articles by students before graduation are not acceptable sources. I also noted several major problems with Boltanski's article. It all has to go, no question. Zero talk 15:07, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Zero0000: like I said, we started from considering Boltanski's main recommendation as being her PhD thesis, which is post-graduation. To make sure, I did a quick search. The result is even better. She's published in peer-reviewed journals on this specific topic in 2003 and 2005. The Week in Palestine article is from the end of 2005. Only her PhD thesis is from 2007, the articles came out before.
So perfectly legit in terms of academic qualification.
Again, I'm not sure that WP requires the same level of RS as an academic paper. Many WP fields don't go that far. Here it's necessary to find reliable sources because most sources are vague and skip 550 years of history. What journal or book the info comes from is not always by itself the right criterion for this kind of problem.
Look up: https://cv.archives-ouvertes.fr/emma-aubin-boltanski
Two publications: one with details and abstract, and one with full text under "File":
1. https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00290664
Emma Aubin-Boltanski. Salâh al-Din, un héros à l'épreuve : Mythe et pèlerinage en Palestine. Annales. Histoire, Sciences sociales, Armand Colin, 2005, pp.91-107. ⟨hal-00290664⟩
2. https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00292258
Emma Aubin-Boltanski. La réinvention du mawsim de Nabî Sâlih : Les territoires palestiniens (1997-2000). Archives de Sciences Sociales des Religions, Éditions de l’EHESS, 2003, pp.103-120. ⟨hal-00292258⟩ Arminden ( talk) 21:00, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Is there any more scientific evidence to support the claims that MoSeH's (Musa's) body is in the Tomb at Nabi Musa? (one person having a dream and claiming it is there can be said to be evidence [witness, etc.] if that witness/evidence is substantiated by further credible proof; however, if not, then the person is not a credible witness.)
I noticed that with the Christian claim that his body is at the Tomb on the top of the mountain peak now called "Siyagha" that the tomb is found empty and, as far as I am aware, no biological materials have been discovered (blood, or tissue, etc.).
I am not aware of any Zionists, or Judaists making any claims similar.
Thank you for your time, and I hope this is approached peacefully.
Respectfully, Zion.BenYaHoshuWaH ( talk) 00:36, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
If you think it is helpful to make the entry more colorful and interesting 05:21, 20 April 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agmonsnir ( talk • contribs)
Is it fine for the area to be converted to acres or hectares? i feel these would be more familiar to the English speaking wiki Roboduckdragon ( talk) 22:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
This is pretty rough to start with, and is mainly a matter of discharging long-accumulated notes into sections. Once the bulk of the material has been dumped, (others are welcome with their ballast), the idea would be to cut and prune it into thematic divisions, and then revise it stylistically. Finally wikify. Nishidani ( talk) 15:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Tiamat has organized the . I suggest the following structure is what we should aim at.
(1) Lead, defining the term (Done!)
(2) History
(3) The festival's structure
(a) Assembly and departure from Jerusalem, district represented (Hebron and Nablus has specific contingents, unless I misrecall)
(b) The journey to Nabi Musa
(c) The nature of the festival on site (3 days or five days?). Religious organisation, vows, feasting etc.
(d) The return to Jerusalem through the Jaffa gate(?) and dispersal.
(4) The development of it as a symbol of Palestinian identity and nationalism.
(5)Incidental material, and the Moses' stone.
If one can gather it, details on costume etc., and folkloric beliefs associated with it. Nishidani ( talk) 17:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
See from the British Department of Antiquities in Palestine a description of the Mamluk inscription at the site.
Onceinawhile ( talk) 01:22, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
Arminden ( talk) 03:35, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Zero0000: Hi. I'm happy to see more or more specific material and sources added, but for now I don't see what could be wrong with a short outline based on Emma Aubin-Boltanski. She wrote for Week in Pal. on the subject she was preparing her PhD thesis for. She's a PhD social anthropologist and senior researcher at the CNRS now, which is a very hard to reach position. I did write down all there was to say in the source details: Week in Pal. is restructuring the website, original URL is not available, but this other Palestinian website received the article a few months after publication. Have a great day, Arminden ( talk) 05:31, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
To editor Arminden: On the other hand, Halabi's paper is a fine source. Can you please point me to the place where Halabi says the procession was banned in 1937? I can't find it. You also added without source "The 1937 ban on the procession from Jerusalem would be largely upheld until the present day." and there is a later mention of 1937 too. The problem is that the procession from Jerusalem in 1938 was reported by several articles in the Palestine Post. These articles say that the procession was smaller than in previous years because contingents from some towns like Hebron chose to not take part. That is quite different (and more interesting) than the procession being banned (unless "banned" does not mean "banned by the authorities"). (The PP website just went down; I'll write more when it comes back.) Zero talk 07:23, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
(PP is back). In 1939 there was no Nabi Musa procession but it is not reported as banned. There was also no Palm Sunday procession by the Christian churches. In 1940 it was reported that the ulemas of the former Sharia Court decided to hold Nabi Musa ceremonies but not a procession. A few days later, a small procession was reported. No mention of a ban in either article. In 1941, ceremonies but no procession. In 1942, only a local procession. The 1941–1942 articles mention pilgrims from Jerusalem with their banners, and high British official guests, but they don't actually say there was a procession from Jerusalem.
On the other hand, on 16 Apr 1943, PP reported a procession from Jerusalem. It is worth quoting: "The annual Nebi Musa celebrations began in Jerusalem yesterday when the Nablus contingent arrived in the morning and moved in traditional procession from Sheikh Jarah to Haram es Sharif via Damascus Gate. Village contingents will continue to arrive throughout today carrying banners and visiting the mosque before embarking on the pilgrimage to Nebi Musa. Jaffa and Ramle villagers arriving by train will march from the Railway Station through the Old City Suk and will link up with the Jerusalem contingent after the latter receive the banners from the District Commissioner.
" It also says that in the previous few years the Nablus contingent didn't come since the money had dried up when the mufti left. There is a follow-up on Apr 19. From this we learn that in 1943 there was a procession and it had government approval. In 1944 there is an eyewitness account of someone who travelled from Jerusalem with a group of dervishes who played kettledrums and cymbals. In 1945 there is something about Nebi Musa lying in "Controlled Area No. 3", whatever that means. However, permission must have been given as festivities at Nebi Musa were reported (though it says the notables came from Jerusalem by car). In 1946, large festivities in Jerusalem and Nebi Musa report, but whether anyone walked to Nebi Musa is unclear (mention of cars, buses and taxis). There was a "long procession" bringing the banners back to Jerusalem. In 1947, "the Moslem Nebi Musa procession from Jerusalem to Jericho on Friday was attended by fewer pilgrims than usual", but a large party of government and military officials attended. In 1948, no procession was mentioned. On 15 Apr 1949, PP reported "For the first time in almost eight centuries and indeed since the Nebi Musa pilgrimage was first introduced by Salah-ed-Din, there will be no Zafah procession this year".
We aren't allowed to craft an article out of newspaper reports, but they serve as a sanity check. It is certainly not true that the procession ceased in 1937, nor is it true that it was banned then.
Zero
talk
08:58, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
To sum up what is not very clear yet.
MAQAM, PILGRIMAGE
INHABITANTS, LANDS
"Around 1820, the Ottoman authorities had to almost fully rebuild the shrine complex, which had, over the previous centuries, fallen into a grave state of dilapidated disrepair.[see Murphy-O'Connor] In addition, they promoted a festive pilgrimage to the shrine that would always coincide with the Orthodox Christian celebration of Easter, creating a counter-balance to the Christian ceremonial activity in the city.[see Murphy-O'Connor] This 'invention of tradition', as such imaginative constructs are called,[see Hobsbawm] made the pageantry of the Nabi Musa pilgrimage a potent symbol of both political and religious identity among Muslims from the outset of the modern period.[see Friedland & Hecht, Murphy-O'Connor]"
Questions:
And here is the answer, at least for the 16th century, with less detail for later times: <ref>{{cite book |last= Cohen |first= Amnon |title= Al-Nabi Musa – an Ottoman festival (''mawsim'') resurrected? |pages= 34-44 |editor= David J Wasserstein, Ami Ayalon |work= Mamluks and Ottomans: Studies in Honour of Michael Winter |publisher= Routledge |series= Routledge Studies in Middle Eastern History |year= 2013 |edition= reprint |isbn= 9781136579172 |url= https://books.google.com/books?id=SMGSTgfU7CQC&pg=PA34 |access-date= 22 April 2021}}</ref> I have already used another article from this book as a source for the Baibars inscription (goes beyond Meyer's), and there might be more very useful material. Arminden ( talk) 02:28, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
To editor Arminden: Articles by students before graduation are not acceptable sources. I also noted several major problems with Boltanski's article. It all has to go, no question. Zero talk 15:07, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
@ Zero0000: like I said, we started from considering Boltanski's main recommendation as being her PhD thesis, which is post-graduation. To make sure, I did a quick search. The result is even better. She's published in peer-reviewed journals on this specific topic in 2003 and 2005. The Week in Palestine article is from the end of 2005. Only her PhD thesis is from 2007, the articles came out before.
So perfectly legit in terms of academic qualification.
Again, I'm not sure that WP requires the same level of RS as an academic paper. Many WP fields don't go that far. Here it's necessary to find reliable sources because most sources are vague and skip 550 years of history. What journal or book the info comes from is not always by itself the right criterion for this kind of problem.
Look up: https://cv.archives-ouvertes.fr/emma-aubin-boltanski
Two publications: one with details and abstract, and one with full text under "File":
1. https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00290664
Emma Aubin-Boltanski. Salâh al-Din, un héros à l'épreuve : Mythe et pèlerinage en Palestine. Annales. Histoire, Sciences sociales, Armand Colin, 2005, pp.91-107. ⟨hal-00290664⟩
2. https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00292258
Emma Aubin-Boltanski. La réinvention du mawsim de Nabî Sâlih : Les territoires palestiniens (1997-2000). Archives de Sciences Sociales des Religions, Éditions de l’EHESS, 2003, pp.103-120. ⟨hal-00292258⟩ Arminden ( talk) 21:00, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Is there any more scientific evidence to support the claims that MoSeH's (Musa's) body is in the Tomb at Nabi Musa? (one person having a dream and claiming it is there can be said to be evidence [witness, etc.] if that witness/evidence is substantiated by further credible proof; however, if not, then the person is not a credible witness.)
I noticed that with the Christian claim that his body is at the Tomb on the top of the mountain peak now called "Siyagha" that the tomb is found empty and, as far as I am aware, no biological materials have been discovered (blood, or tissue, etc.).
I am not aware of any Zionists, or Judaists making any claims similar.
Thank you for your time, and I hope this is approached peacefully.
Respectfully, Zion.BenYaHoshuWaH ( talk) 00:36, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
If you think it is helpful to make the entry more colorful and interesting 05:21, 20 April 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agmonsnir ( talk • contribs)
Is it fine for the area to be converted to acres or hectares? i feel these would be more familiar to the English speaking wiki Roboduckdragon ( talk) 22:09, 18 April 2024 (UTC)