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Previous discussions:
I've been observing these articles on Canadian monarchy for some time, but have chosen not to get involved due to my focus on other articles. Firstly, I believe that if there were copyvio issues with the previous version, then it should have been completely rewritten, not deleted. Secondly, I would like to urge all parties involved here to stick to the facts concerning the Canadian monarchy. Though an American, I am well acquainted with the Monarchist League to know that their positions do not generally deviate from the official positions of the Canadian government (despite potentially revisionist attempts first put into motion by the Trudeau government) concerning the status of the constitutional monarchy. For example, the Queen of Canada is just that - the Queen of Canada. This is a fact. I was greatly saddened to see that the Queen of Canada article was deleted and redirected to Monarchy in Canada, which explained in detail her distinctly Canadian position. This redirection is, in my view, an attempt to deny her position as Queen of Canada.
Again, I would like to reiterate that the Monarchist League is an organization which seeks to promote awareness and education of the Canadian monarchy - it's positions are not based upon mere opinion, but are firmly grounded in history - the same history which is also officially promoted (though often neglected, considering the current state of Canadian awareness concerning the monarchy) by the Canadian government. Canadian heritage should not be denied, no matter what anyone's politics might be. Canadian republicans can argue against the monarchy (and the Monarchist League), but IMHO, they should not promote their views as being fact (i.e. that the Canadian monarchy is actually British). SouthernComfort 5 July 2005 08:34 (UTC)
I think you've gotten things somewhat reversed. No one is saying that the article should assert *as fact* that the monarchy is British. Rather, the objection is to asserting, as fact, that the monarchy is *Canadian* when that is actually contested. What should be said is that some people believe that the monarchy is Canadian, others assert it is British ie we should be NPOV and not take a position. AndyL 5 July 2005 12:41 (UTC)
Legally Canadian, perhaps though Rouleau and the Royal Titles Act suggests more legally British than Canadian' in any meaningful sense "simultanesouly British, Canadian, Bahamian, New Zeladander" contestable, "distinctly Canadian" or with "distinct Canadian features" also debatable and not something most reasonable people would agree to. What the MLC advocates argue is "distinct" others would say is minutia. AndyL 5 July 2005 16:15 (UTC)
"Relying on decisions of Canadian courts of law and on Canadian legislation " both of which refer to the monarchy as British. The only thing gbambino could come up with in response was an Australian ruling from a court that has no jurisdiction in Canada. AndyL 5 July 2005 18:37 (UTC)
"Is there a post-Pearson/Trudeau source for this claim that the monarchy is British?"
Yes, scroll up and read the excerpts from the Rouleau decision made in 2003 in which the learned justice repeatedly refers to the "British Crown" that Canada is "under". Mandarins in the Department of Canadian Heritage can write what they like on their websites but they do not interpret the law or the constitution, that's left to judges. AndyL 5 July 2005 22:38 (UTC)
"I also think it best to stick to the current facts and state of Canadian monarchy, rather than relying on legally obsolete sources (big difference between Canada pre-1950s and post)."
Again, the Rouleau decision came down in 2003. I suggest that when you jump into the middle of the debate it's best to acquaint yourself with what's been said rather than assume you're up to speed. Please take a moment and read the entire talk page so that we don't have to cover the same ground again. AndyL 5 July 2005 22:45 (UTC)
"n other words, the Canadian monarchy was officially linked to the United Kingdom (as well as the French) in the past, but no longer is so (since the 1960s, if I am not mistaken)"
Sorry but you're mistaken. For one thing nothing happened in the 1960s that would have changed the constitutional relationship in question. Secondly, when something did happen in 1982, it changed the relationship but did not break it.
Again, read Rouleau and read the Schedule of the Constitution Act, 1982 and you'll find that we remain linked through the Act of Settlement amongst other constitutional documents. AndyL 5 July 2005 22:45 (UTC)
"It only states that the Crown is of British 'origin."
Where is the word "origin" used in Rouleau's decision?
I see:
He specifically refers to the Crown as "the British Crown" but I don't see the word "origin" anywhere. Do you? Or did you just interpolate the word? Earlier you asked "Is there a post-Pearson/Trudeau source for this claim that the monarchy is British?" Clearly Rouleau (above) says that the Crown is "the British Crown". He doesn't say we are united under the Candian Crown, or that there is a British Crown and a Candian Crown and that they're good friends but distinct from each other. No, he says that we and other Commonwealth nations are in a "Union under the British Crown". The phrase "British origin" is your invention; it exists no where in Rouleau's decision.
Then explain why the phrase "Canadian monarchy" or "Canadian Crown" does not appear at all in the judge's ruling while "British Crown" or "Crown of Great Britain" appears several times and not just in context to ruling over Britain but ruling over Canada? I'm sorry if this contradicts your preconceptions (or what you've read on some Ministry of Canadian Heritage website) but if you read what is actually there and not what you think it should say you'll see you're claims are completely false. AndyL 6 July 2005 00:35 (UTC)
As for the word mandarin, it's a synonym for civil servant. See for instance [1] or [2] or [3] AndyL 6 July 2005 00:16 (UTC)
Re mandarins, see also the first definition listed on wikipedia's mandarin page or the Mandarin (China) article which states:
AndyL 6 July 2005 00:27 (UTC)
" I wasn't trying to say that he himself used the word "origin."" You implied it. +
"He does not use the term to imply that the British monarchy rules over Canada" He explictly said that Canada is "under the the British Crown" How can you possibly interpret that to say the British monarchy does not rule over Canada?
" If that were true, then if the UK abolished the monarchy there, then Canada would also cease to have a monarchy. But that isn't the case."
Are you seriously suggesting that if Britain abolished the monarchy nothing would happen in Canada?
"the Queen does not rule over Canada as Queen of the UK, but as Queen of Canada." She is "Queen of Canada because she is Queen of the United Kingdom".
"The Canadian monarchy is separate from the British monarchy." If that were the case then the Queen of Canada would be free to be a Roman Catholic or marry one. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:15 (UTC)
"As for "Canadian Crown," Gbambino stated that the Canadian monarchy has no official name, which is why the judge used "British Crown" in the absence of an official name"
That is the most illogical thing I've ever read. The use of the term "British Crown" does not logically follow from the absence of an "official name" for the Canadian monarchy. It does not explain why the judge chose to use the phrase "British Crown" to the complete exclusion of the phrase "Canadian Crown". Gbambino is no authority, just because he makes up an explanation to rationalise away an inconvenient fact does not make it so. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:15 (UTC)
That is the whole point of reductio ad absurdum arguments, isn't it? I'm still waiting for you to tell me how you can read Rouleau's statement that we are "under the British Crown" as meaning the opposite of those words. I'm still waiting for you to explain where Rouleau says the Canadian and British monarchies are "seperate" and "distinct" when he says no such thing? I'm still waiting for you to explain how it is that the rules of succession to the position of monarch in Canada are determined by an arcance British law? Please explain to me why a Catholic cannot be Queen of Canada even though we have no state church and have a Charter of Rights that bans discrimination on the basis of religion? I'm waiting for you to expalin how all this can be when, at the same time, the monarchy is "not British"? I'm still waiting for you to explain how Canada can be a sovereign country independent of Britain and British laws when, at the same time, we cannot change the rules governing the succession to the "Canadian throne" without the consent of the British parliament? The British parliament, however, can unilaterally amend the preamble of the Statute of Westminster and then the Act of Settlement if it so wishes with or without our consent. How so? Because the Act of Settlement and Statute of Westminster are mere statute law in Britain and can simply be amended by the British Parliament while, in Canada, the Statute of Westminster is entrenched in our Constitution which is not statute law. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:37 (UTC)
"Such a claim, if true, would also mean that Canada is not really independent and sovereign that the government of the UK, in reality, controls Canada."
The British Crown and the British government are not the same thing. We are not ruled by the government of the UK. We are, however, reigned over by the British Crown. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:37 (UTC)
The Act of Settlement is not a "tradition", it's an act of the parliament at Westminster. Catholics are not barred from the throne out of "tradition", they are barred by law. [ And while Canadian or Australian courts cannot, it seems, strike down the Act of Settlement it is conceivable that a British (or European) court could if it rules that the Act is in violation with the EU's human rights charter. And, as I said, the British Parliament can unilaterally rescind the bar on Catholics while Canada's parliament cannot. So yes, the UK has more power over the Crown in Canada than Canada itself does. AndyL 6 July 2005 02:18 (UTC)
"Please see Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox"
The point is that the claim some are trying to put in the article that the Crown is "not British" is not an objective fact, rather it is POV and contestable. That is the entire point of my argument. The arguments you dismiss make that point as does your inability to rebut them. No where am I arguing that the wikipedia article(s) should state as fact that the Crown is not Canadian (meaning you are putting forward a
straw dog argument). If Britain were to change the rules of succession unilaterally, that would change the "Canadian Crown". If Canada were to somehow change the rules of succession uniltarally the converse would not be true.
AndyL 6 July 2005 02:30 (UTC)
And, as I said earlier, a UK or European court could conceivably strike down the Act of Settlement. A Canadian court cannot. AndyL 6 July 2005 02:50 (UTC)
Also note the following in the Rouleau decision: [33] As a result of the Statute of Westminster it was recognized that any alterations in the rules of succession would no longer be imposed by Great Britain and, if symmetry among commonwealth countries were to be maintained, any changes to the rules of succession would have to be agreed to by all members of the Commonwealth. This arrangement can be compared to a treaty among the Commonwealth countries to share the monarchy under the existing rules and not to change the rules without the agreement of all signatories. While Canada as a sovereign nation is free to withdraw from the arrangement and no longer be united through common allegiance to the Crown, it cannot unilaterally change the rules of succession for all Commonwealth countries. Unilateral changes by Canada to the rules of succession, whether imposed by the court or otherwise, would be contrary to the commitment given in the Statute of Westminster, would break symmetry and breach the principle of union under the British Crown set out in the preamble to the Constitution Act, 1867. Such changes would, for all intents and purposes, bring about a fundamental change in the office of the Queen without securing the authorizations required pursuant to s. 41 of the Constitution Act, 1982. Peter Grey 6 July 2005 04:39 (UTC)
I didn't say Canada could and indeed, as you point out (and as I argued) Canada is unable to amend the succession rules unilaterally. However, Britain can and that's my entire point! You've said nothing that disagrees with my point, indeed, everythig you says only further affirms it.
But they do in regards to Britain and that is my point. Let's say the European Court of Human Rights strikes down the sections of the Act of Settlement barring Catholics from the British throne. What would happen then? AndyL 6 July 2005 16:55 (UTC)
"But you see, what I am trying to convey is that for you to interpret "British Crown" as meaning that the British monarchy rules over Canada, that is your personal interpretation and opinion. You can't state that as fact and the Canadian government apparently disagrees with you, otherwise they would go around talking about the "British monarchy"" rather than "Canadian monarchy."
Gbambino has sufficiently explained these points (concerning the technicalities of the Crown) in this talk and Talk:Monarchy in Canada
Peter, I noticed you grouped all my points together and then failed to respond to any of them. Is that because you are conceding those points? Do you affirm or deny the following, for example: 1. (Rouleau) *did not* speak of separate or distinct crowns. I'm glad you agree. 2. (The Act of Settlement/exclusion of Catholics from the throne) is designed to meet historical British interests. There is no reason for Catholics to be excluded from the Canadian throne as the Church of England is not our state church. The only reason for this requirement is to meet the needs of Britain's constitutional arrangement. 3. The point is that we cannot have a Catholic Queen because it violates the precepts of the *British* constitution. There is no domestic reason for this requirement, the reason is entirely British yet it means that we have rules governing the succession to our throne which are anathama to Canadian values of religious equality. AndyL 6 July 2005 17:27 (UTC)
There are two principles in the succession of the Crown in Canada: the succession is unchanged from the constitutional situation in 1931, and the succession is identical in all the Commonwealth Realms. (Rouleau alluded to these.) The (highly unlikely) hypothetical situation you're discussing could, possibly, bring these principles into conflict. Rouleau made a useful analogy, that of an international treaty, and your scenario would be like the UK renegging on its obligations. As the UK is a sovereign state, Canada cannot prevent this (and vice versa). Either Canadian courts of law would resolve this, or Parliament (of Canada), or constitutional amendment would resolve the conflict, if it was determined there was one. You're suggesting the UK solution would be automatically adopted in Canada, which is obviously incorrect, not to mention original research. Peter Grey 6 July 2005 18:26 (UTC)
Automatic, no, virtually assured, yes. It is inconceivable that if the UK changed the Statute of Westminister or Act of Settlement on its own (and while for Canada's purposes the Statute may be "like a treaty" for Britain's purposes, it's a simple statute) Canada would want to go it alone and risk having its own resident monarchy. Indeed, Canada's political system has developed around the assumption that the monarch is an absentee monarch (hence the need for a Governor-General). Actually having a monarch permanently resident in Rideau Hall is simply not politically palatable either to the politicians or to the general population. Therefore, the practical reality is that if the UK were forced to or chose to unilaterally change the Act of Settlement, Canada would be bound to either accept that or ditch the monarchy entirely - the possibility of maintaining the succession rules as they are is so remote as to not be worth serious consideration. Also, if the UK were to decide to become a republic, the chances of Canada not following suit are so remote as to be neglible for the same reason - there is no appetite in Canada for a resident monarchy, the constitution is not designed for it, the political establishment would not want it and I suspect there'd be minimal support amongst the population and a great deal of opposition. We've had 50 years or so with a monarch who is only here 2% of the time and almost a century before that with monarchs who were around none of the time. Going from 2 miles an hour to 100 would be a shock the Canadian political system would not be prepared to undertake, I'm afraid. Conversely, if Canada were to become a republic tomorrow the impact on the UK would be zilch.
Even if you are not prepared to concede that if the UK became a republic, so would Canada, you have no choice but to admit that Britain becoming a republic would unleash a huge debate in Canada. Moreover, the coming of a resident monarchy would open up a hornet's nest of constitutional and political difficulties - even you have to admit that - since our constitution is designed with an absentee monarch in mind. AndyL 6 July 2005 19:03 (UTC)
I am acknowledging that whereas I am dealing with practical reality, you are dealing with fantasy and legal fictions. Are you willing to bet $10,000 that if the UK became a republic Canada would not follow suit? AndyL 6 July 2005 19:11 (UTC)
You also have to recognise that constitutions are informed by convention and the convention, I dare say, is that our succession rules will not diverge from the British succession rules. The notion that our monarchies are separate and distinct is a fantasy and Rouleau, does not say our monarchies are separate, quite the opposite, he speaks of unity "under the Crown of Great Britain" and that is what this debate is actually about, whether or not our Crown is "not British". You have presented no evidence that it isn't, you've only given us sophist theory that has a complete lack of grounding in reality or, for that matter, in constitutional law. AndyL 6 July 2005 19:11 (UTC)
Recently, it has not been the custom of the British government to consult with the Commonwealth realms on matters dealing with the monarchy. For instance, there was no consultation on the matter of Charles' divorce some years ago, nor was there any consultation on the whole question of Charles marrying Camilla Parker-Bowles or her future title.
In any case, you avoid the relevent question regarding the "Canadian Crown" being "not British". Do you stand by that? If not then it has no place in the article. AndyL 6 July 2005 19:57 (UTC)
As for "political speculation", you are speculating that if Britain were to become a republic it would have no impact on Canada's constitutional situation. Obviously that is wrong since our constitution is not designed for a resident monarch. A change in the UK monarchy impacts Canada, the opposite does not impact Britain; to say this is not "speculation", it's a realistic assesment based on our constitutional and political realities. Constitutions exist in the real world, not in text books. Simply saying discussion is out of bounds is not a refutation, rather it's an admission that you cannot refute the point being made. What has "no place" in wikipedia are the personal attacks you've descended to. AndyL
Yes, and I haven't objected to the article's current wording. AndyL
I agree, we've gone off on a tangent. AndyL
As for "original research", I wasn't suggesting that any of this go into the article, I was just explaining how it is incorrect to assert that the "Canadian monarchy" was distinct and separate from the British monarchy. AndyL 9 July 2005 13:22 (UTC)
Point 3 below refers to governments, not to "Crowns". AndyL 9 July 2005 13:49 (UTC)
I guess the drafters of the Statute of Westminster were incorrect then when they used the phrase "His Majesty's Governments" if the crown is part of the government. Indeed, I guess the phrase "His Majesty's government" and "Her Majesty's government" must be thrown out. Perhaps you should send an email to Buckingham Palace asking the Queen to be "more precise". Anyway, the Statute is in regards to the equality of the British dominions with Westminster, it does not deal with the Crown and does not imply there are seperate crowns rather than one (as the phrase "His Majesty's Governments" makes clear). Indeed, Rouleau makes it quite clear there is a British crown under which we are united. AndyL 9 July 2005 15:21 (UTC)
Stop being tedious. What do you *think* the Statute of Westminster meant by the phrase "His Majesty's Governments" and what do you think is usually meant by the phrase "Her Majesty's Government"? If you want to split hairs I suggest you go to a barber shop. AndyL 9 July 2005 16:02 (UTC)
"Read (1) and (2) below again." I was referring to (3) below which is an inprecise reading of what the Statute actually says. Anyway, you're getting into tediously arcane arguments, yet again which may hold great fascination for monarchists but bore the rest of us to tears. AndyL 9 July 2005 16:07 (UTC)
":Your statement was unrelated to (3)."
I find that hard to accept as my statement was: "Point 3 below refers to governments, not to "Crowns"."
Are you now going to start arguing with me about what the word "unrelated" means? Or perhaps the meaning of "was" or "statement" or "your"? AndyL 9 July 2005 16:28 (UTC)
In response to your picayune nit-picking, let me rephrase my original statement to "Point 3 (below) refers to Her Majesty's Governments existing concurrently in Britain and the various realms and not to the Crown itself. AndyL 22:52, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
That's your POV. AndyL 01:24, 10 July 2005 (UTC) - It's the definition of " equal". Peter Grey 04:46, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
There's also no indication in the Statute that there is a "both" ie that there is more than one crown. You are reading that in. 01:49, 10 July 2005 (UTC) - Not everything has to be in the Statute of Westminster. The person of the Queen is the Crown shared between the Commonwealth Realms, Canada Post is a Crown corporation, meaning Her Majesty in right of Canada is the sole shareholder, a Ward of the Crown is a responsibility of Her Majesty in right of a province. Peter Grey 04:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
The point is there is nothing in the Statute of Westminster that refers to there being different crowns in each country, let alone anything that comments on their status to each other ie nothing to contradict Rouleau's notion that we are all "under the British Crown". 67.70.21.67 05:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter, you're spouting trivia that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. 67.70.21.67 05:37, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Unquestioningly
A few points referred to elsewhere:
Peter Grey 6 July 2005 20:22 (UTC) Also, Wikipedia's article on monarchy makes this observation:
Peter Grey 9 July 2005 14:06 (UTC)
An anon editor keeps adding republican websites to the external links section - they don't belong in this article. Monarchist website links don't belong on Citizens for a Canadian Republic, and rightly so, and republican web links don't belong here. This article focuses on a single organization - Monarchist League of Canada. SouthernComfort 8 July 2005 10:38 (UTC)
Please cite policy stating that relevent external links to opposing organizations do not belong? I am not familiar with this policy. Are you saying "they do not belong" because it is against the rules or because you don't want it there? I'm afraid the two are not the same thing. AndyL 8 July 2005 10:53 (UTC)
Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.
Previous discussions:
I've been observing these articles on Canadian monarchy for some time, but have chosen not to get involved due to my focus on other articles. Firstly, I believe that if there were copyvio issues with the previous version, then it should have been completely rewritten, not deleted. Secondly, I would like to urge all parties involved here to stick to the facts concerning the Canadian monarchy. Though an American, I am well acquainted with the Monarchist League to know that their positions do not generally deviate from the official positions of the Canadian government (despite potentially revisionist attempts first put into motion by the Trudeau government) concerning the status of the constitutional monarchy. For example, the Queen of Canada is just that - the Queen of Canada. This is a fact. I was greatly saddened to see that the Queen of Canada article was deleted and redirected to Monarchy in Canada, which explained in detail her distinctly Canadian position. This redirection is, in my view, an attempt to deny her position as Queen of Canada.
Again, I would like to reiterate that the Monarchist League is an organization which seeks to promote awareness and education of the Canadian monarchy - it's positions are not based upon mere opinion, but are firmly grounded in history - the same history which is also officially promoted (though often neglected, considering the current state of Canadian awareness concerning the monarchy) by the Canadian government. Canadian heritage should not be denied, no matter what anyone's politics might be. Canadian republicans can argue against the monarchy (and the Monarchist League), but IMHO, they should not promote their views as being fact (i.e. that the Canadian monarchy is actually British). SouthernComfort 5 July 2005 08:34 (UTC)
I think you've gotten things somewhat reversed. No one is saying that the article should assert *as fact* that the monarchy is British. Rather, the objection is to asserting, as fact, that the monarchy is *Canadian* when that is actually contested. What should be said is that some people believe that the monarchy is Canadian, others assert it is British ie we should be NPOV and not take a position. AndyL 5 July 2005 12:41 (UTC)
Legally Canadian, perhaps though Rouleau and the Royal Titles Act suggests more legally British than Canadian' in any meaningful sense "simultanesouly British, Canadian, Bahamian, New Zeladander" contestable, "distinctly Canadian" or with "distinct Canadian features" also debatable and not something most reasonable people would agree to. What the MLC advocates argue is "distinct" others would say is minutia. AndyL 5 July 2005 16:15 (UTC)
"Relying on decisions of Canadian courts of law and on Canadian legislation " both of which refer to the monarchy as British. The only thing gbambino could come up with in response was an Australian ruling from a court that has no jurisdiction in Canada. AndyL 5 July 2005 18:37 (UTC)
"Is there a post-Pearson/Trudeau source for this claim that the monarchy is British?"
Yes, scroll up and read the excerpts from the Rouleau decision made in 2003 in which the learned justice repeatedly refers to the "British Crown" that Canada is "under". Mandarins in the Department of Canadian Heritage can write what they like on their websites but they do not interpret the law or the constitution, that's left to judges. AndyL 5 July 2005 22:38 (UTC)
"I also think it best to stick to the current facts and state of Canadian monarchy, rather than relying on legally obsolete sources (big difference between Canada pre-1950s and post)."
Again, the Rouleau decision came down in 2003. I suggest that when you jump into the middle of the debate it's best to acquaint yourself with what's been said rather than assume you're up to speed. Please take a moment and read the entire talk page so that we don't have to cover the same ground again. AndyL 5 July 2005 22:45 (UTC)
"n other words, the Canadian monarchy was officially linked to the United Kingdom (as well as the French) in the past, but no longer is so (since the 1960s, if I am not mistaken)"
Sorry but you're mistaken. For one thing nothing happened in the 1960s that would have changed the constitutional relationship in question. Secondly, when something did happen in 1982, it changed the relationship but did not break it.
Again, read Rouleau and read the Schedule of the Constitution Act, 1982 and you'll find that we remain linked through the Act of Settlement amongst other constitutional documents. AndyL 5 July 2005 22:45 (UTC)
"It only states that the Crown is of British 'origin."
Where is the word "origin" used in Rouleau's decision?
I see:
He specifically refers to the Crown as "the British Crown" but I don't see the word "origin" anywhere. Do you? Or did you just interpolate the word? Earlier you asked "Is there a post-Pearson/Trudeau source for this claim that the monarchy is British?" Clearly Rouleau (above) says that the Crown is "the British Crown". He doesn't say we are united under the Candian Crown, or that there is a British Crown and a Candian Crown and that they're good friends but distinct from each other. No, he says that we and other Commonwealth nations are in a "Union under the British Crown". The phrase "British origin" is your invention; it exists no where in Rouleau's decision.
Then explain why the phrase "Canadian monarchy" or "Canadian Crown" does not appear at all in the judge's ruling while "British Crown" or "Crown of Great Britain" appears several times and not just in context to ruling over Britain but ruling over Canada? I'm sorry if this contradicts your preconceptions (or what you've read on some Ministry of Canadian Heritage website) but if you read what is actually there and not what you think it should say you'll see you're claims are completely false. AndyL 6 July 2005 00:35 (UTC)
As for the word mandarin, it's a synonym for civil servant. See for instance [4] or [5] or [6] AndyL 6 July 2005 00:16 (UTC)
Re mandarins, see also the first definition listed on wikipedia's mandarin page or the Mandarin (China) article which states:
AndyL 6 July 2005 00:27 (UTC)
" I wasn't trying to say that he himself used the word "origin."" You implied it. +
"He does not use the term to imply that the British monarchy rules over Canada" He explictly said that Canada is "under the the British Crown" How can you possibly interpret that to say the British monarchy does not rule over Canada?
" If that were true, then if the UK abolished the monarchy there, then Canada would also cease to have a monarchy. But that isn't the case."
Are you seriously suggesting that if Britain abolished the monarchy nothing would happen in Canada?
"the Queen does not rule over Canada as Queen of the UK, but as Queen of Canada." She is "Queen of Canada because she is Queen of the United Kingdom".
"The Canadian monarchy is separate from the British monarchy." If that were the case then the Queen of Canada would be free to be a Roman Catholic or marry one. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:15 (UTC)
"As for "Canadian Crown," Gbambino stated that the Canadian monarchy has no official name, which is why the judge used "British Crown" in the absence of an official name"
That is the most illogical thing I've ever read. The use of the term "British Crown" does not logically follow from the absence of an "official name" for the Canadian monarchy. It does not explain why the judge chose to use the phrase "British Crown" to the complete exclusion of the phrase "Canadian Crown". Gbambino is no authority, just because he makes up an explanation to rationalise away an inconvenient fact does not make it so. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:15 (UTC)
That is the whole point of reductio ad absurdum arguments, isn't it? I'm still waiting for you to tell me how you can read Rouleau's statement that we are "under the British Crown" as meaning the opposite of those words. I'm still waiting for you to explain where Rouleau says the Canadian and British monarchies are "seperate" and "distinct" when he says no such thing? I'm still waiting for you to explain how it is that the rules of succession to the position of monarch in Canada are determined by an arcance British law? Please explain to me why a Catholic cannot be Queen of Canada even though we have no state church and have a Charter of Rights that bans discrimination on the basis of religion? I'm waiting for you to expalin how all this can be when, at the same time, the monarchy is "not British"? I'm still waiting for you to explain how Canada can be a sovereign country independent of Britain and British laws when, at the same time, we cannot change the rules governing the succession to the "Canadian throne" without the consent of the British parliament? The British parliament, however, can unilaterally amend the preamble of the Statute of Westminster and then the Act of Settlement if it so wishes with or without our consent. How so? Because the Act of Settlement and Statute of Westminster are mere statute law in Britain and can simply be amended by the British Parliament while, in Canada, the Statute of Westminster is entrenched in our Constitution which is not statute law. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:37 (UTC)
"Such a claim, if true, would also mean that Canada is not really independent and sovereign that the government of the UK, in reality, controls Canada."
The British Crown and the British government are not the same thing. We are not ruled by the government of the UK. We are, however, reigned over by the British Crown. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:37 (UTC)
The Act of Settlement is not a "tradition", it's an act of the parliament at Westminster. Catholics are not barred from the throne out of "tradition", they are barred by law. [ And while Canadian or Australian courts cannot, it seems, strike down the Act of Settlement it is conceivable that a British (or European) court could if it rules that the Act is in violation with the EU's human rights charter. And, as I said, the British Parliament can unilaterally rescind the bar on Catholics while Canada's parliament cannot. So yes, the UK has more power over the Crown in Canada than Canada itself does. AndyL 6 July 2005 02:18 (UTC)
"Please see Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox"
The point is that the claim some are trying to put in the article that the Crown is "not British" is not an objective fact, rather it is POV and contestable. That is the entire point of my argument. The arguments you dismiss make that point as does your inability to rebut them. No where am I arguing that the wikipedia article(s) should state as fact that the Crown is not Canadian (meaning you are putting forward a
straw dog argument). If Britain were to change the rules of succession unilaterally, that would change the "Canadian Crown". If Canada were to somehow change the rules of succession uniltarally the converse would not be true.
AndyL 6 July 2005 02:30 (UTC)
And, as I said earlier, a UK or European court could conceivably strike down the Act of Settlement. A Canadian court cannot. AndyL 6 July 2005 02:50 (UTC)
Also note the following in the Rouleau decision: [33] As a result of the Statute of Westminster it was recognized that any alterations in the rules of succession would no longer be imposed by Great Britain and, if symmetry among commonwealth countries were to be maintained, any changes to the rules of succession would have to be agreed to by all members of the Commonwealth. This arrangement can be compared to a treaty among the Commonwealth countries to share the monarchy under the existing rules and not to change the rules without the agreement of all signatories. While Canada as a sovereign nation is free to withdraw from the arrangement and no longer be united through common allegiance to the Crown, it cannot unilaterally change the rules of succession for all Commonwealth countries. Unilateral changes by Canada to the rules of succession, whether imposed by the court or otherwise, would be contrary to the commitment given in the Statute of Westminster, would break symmetry and breach the principle of union under the British Crown set out in the preamble to the Constitution Act, 1867. Such changes would, for all intents and purposes, bring about a fundamental change in the office of the Queen without securing the authorizations required pursuant to s. 41 of the Constitution Act, 1982. Peter Grey 6 July 2005 04:39 (UTC)
I didn't say Canada could and indeed, as you point out (and as I argued) Canada is unable to amend the succession rules unilaterally. However, Britain can and that's my entire point! You've said nothing that disagrees with my point, indeed, everythig you says only further affirms it.
But they do in regards to Britain and that is my point. Let's say the European Court of Human Rights strikes down the sections of the Act of Settlement barring Catholics from the British throne. What would happen then? AndyL 6 July 2005 16:55 (UTC)
"But you see, what I am trying to convey is that for you to interpret "British Crown" as meaning that the British monarchy rules over Canada, that is your personal interpretation and opinion. You can't state that as fact and the Canadian government apparently disagrees with you, otherwise they would go around talking about the "British monarchy"" rather than "Canadian monarchy."
Gbambino has sufficiently explained these points (concerning the technicalities of the Crown) in this talk and Talk:Monarchy in Canada
Peter, I noticed you grouped all my points together and then failed to respond to any of them. Is that because you are conceding those points? Do you affirm or deny the following, for example: 1. (Rouleau) *did not* speak of separate or distinct crowns. I'm glad you agree. 2. (The Act of Settlement/exclusion of Catholics from the throne) is designed to meet historical British interests. There is no reason for Catholics to be excluded from the Canadian throne as the Church of England is not our state church. The only reason for this requirement is to meet the needs of Britain's constitutional arrangement. 3. The point is that we cannot have a Catholic Queen because it violates the precepts of the *British* constitution. There is no domestic reason for this requirement, the reason is entirely British yet it means that we have rules governing the succession to our throne which are anathama to Canadian values of religious equality. AndyL 6 July 2005 17:27 (UTC)
There are two principles in the succession of the Crown in Canada: the succession is unchanged from the constitutional situation in 1931, and the succession is identical in all the Commonwealth Realms. (Rouleau alluded to these.) The (highly unlikely) hypothetical situation you're discussing could, possibly, bring these principles into conflict. Rouleau made a useful analogy, that of an international treaty, and your scenario would be like the UK renegging on its obligations. As the UK is a sovereign state, Canada cannot prevent this (and vice versa). Either Canadian courts of law would resolve this, or Parliament (of Canada), or constitutional amendment would resolve the conflict, if it was determined there was one. You're suggesting the UK solution would be automatically adopted in Canada, which is obviously incorrect, not to mention original research. Peter Grey 6 July 2005 18:26 (UTC)
Automatic, no, virtually assured, yes. It is inconceivable that if the UK changed the Statute of Westminister or Act of Settlement on its own (and while for Canada's purposes the Statute may be "like a treaty" for Britain's purposes, it's a simple statute) Canada would want to go it alone and risk having its own resident monarchy. Indeed, Canada's political system has developed around the assumption that the monarch is an absentee monarch (hence the need for a Governor-General). Actually having a monarch permanently resident in Rideau Hall is simply not politically palatable either to the politicians or to the general population. Therefore, the practical reality is that if the UK were forced to or chose to unilaterally change the Act of Settlement, Canada would be bound to either accept that or ditch the monarchy entirely - the possibility of maintaining the succession rules as they are is so remote as to not be worth serious consideration. Also, if the UK were to decide to become a republic, the chances of Canada not following suit are so remote as to be neglible for the same reason - there is no appetite in Canada for a resident monarchy, the constitution is not designed for it, the political establishment would not want it and I suspect there'd be minimal support amongst the population and a great deal of opposition. We've had 50 years or so with a monarch who is only here 2% of the time and almost a century before that with monarchs who were around none of the time. Going from 2 miles an hour to 100 would be a shock the Canadian political system would not be prepared to undertake, I'm afraid. Conversely, if Canada were to become a republic tomorrow the impact on the UK would be zilch.
Even if you are not prepared to concede that if the UK became a republic, so would Canada, you have no choice but to admit that Britain becoming a republic would unleash a huge debate in Canada. Moreover, the coming of a resident monarchy would open up a hornet's nest of constitutional and political difficulties - even you have to admit that - since our constitution is designed with an absentee monarch in mind. AndyL 6 July 2005 19:03 (UTC)
I am acknowledging that whereas I am dealing with practical reality, you are dealing with fantasy and legal fictions. Are you willing to bet $10,000 that if the UK became a republic Canada would not follow suit? AndyL 6 July 2005 19:11 (UTC)
You also have to recognise that constitutions are informed by convention and the convention, I dare say, is that our succession rules will not diverge from the British succession rules. The notion that our monarchies are separate and distinct is a fantasy and Rouleau, does not say our monarchies are separate, quite the opposite, he speaks of unity "under the Crown of Great Britain" and that is what this debate is actually about, whether or not our Crown is "not British". You have presented no evidence that it isn't, you've only given us sophist theory that has a complete lack of grounding in reality or, for that matter, in constitutional law. AndyL 6 July 2005 19:11 (UTC)
Recently, it has not been the custom of the British government to consult with the Commonwealth realms on matters dealing with the monarchy. For instance, there was no consultation on the matter of Charles' divorce some years ago, nor was there any consultation on the whole question of Charles marrying Camilla Parker-Bowles or her future title.
In any case, you avoid the relevent question regarding the "Canadian Crown" being "not British". Do you stand by that? If not then it has no place in the article. AndyL 6 July 2005 19:57 (UTC)
As for "political speculation", you are speculating that if Britain were to become a republic it would have no impact on Canada's constitutional situation. Obviously that is wrong since our constitution is not designed for a resident monarch. A change in the UK monarchy impacts Canada, the opposite does not impact Britain; to say this is not "speculation", it's a realistic assesment based on our constitutional and political realities. Constitutions exist in the real world, not in text books. Simply saying discussion is out of bounds is not a refutation, rather it's an admission that you cannot refute the point being made. What has "no place" in wikipedia are the personal attacks you've descended to. AndyL
Yes, and I haven't objected to the article's current wording. AndyL
I agree, we've gone off on a tangent. AndyL
As for "original research", I wasn't suggesting that any of this go into the article, I was just explaining how it is incorrect to assert that the "Canadian monarchy" was distinct and separate from the British monarchy. AndyL 9 July 2005 13:22 (UTC)
Point 3 below refers to governments, not to "Crowns". AndyL 9 July 2005 13:49 (UTC)
I guess the drafters of the Statute of Westminster were incorrect then when they used the phrase "His Majesty's Governments" if the crown is part of the government. Indeed, I guess the phrase "His Majesty's government" and "Her Majesty's government" must be thrown out. Perhaps you should send an email to Buckingham Palace asking the Queen to be "more precise". Anyway, the Statute is in regards to the equality of the British dominions with Westminster, it does not deal with the Crown and does not imply there are seperate crowns rather than one (as the phrase "His Majesty's Governments" makes clear). Indeed, Rouleau makes it quite clear there is a British crown under which we are united. AndyL 9 July 2005 15:21 (UTC)
Stop being tedious. What do you *think* the Statute of Westminster meant by the phrase "His Majesty's Governments" and what do you think is usually meant by the phrase "Her Majesty's Government"? If you want to split hairs I suggest you go to a barber shop. AndyL 9 July 2005 16:02 (UTC)
"Read (1) and (2) below again." I was referring to (3) below which is an inprecise reading of what the Statute actually says. Anyway, you're getting into tediously arcane arguments, yet again which may hold great fascination for monarchists but bore the rest of us to tears. AndyL 9 July 2005 16:07 (UTC)
":Your statement was unrelated to (3)."
I find that hard to accept as my statement was: "Point 3 below refers to governments, not to "Crowns"."
Are you now going to start arguing with me about what the word "unrelated" means? Or perhaps the meaning of "was" or "statement" or "your"? AndyL 9 July 2005 16:28 (UTC)
In response to your picayune nit-picking, let me rephrase my original statement to "Point 3 (below) refers to Her Majesty's Governments existing concurrently in Britain and the various realms and not to the Crown itself. AndyL 22:52, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
That's your POV. AndyL 01:24, 10 July 2005 (UTC) - It's the definition of " equal". Peter Grey 04:46, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
There's also no indication in the Statute that there is a "both" ie that there is more than one crown. You are reading that in. 01:49, 10 July 2005 (UTC) - Not everything has to be in the Statute of Westminster. The person of the Queen is the Crown shared between the Commonwealth Realms, Canada Post is a Crown corporation, meaning Her Majesty in right of Canada is the sole shareholder, a Ward of the Crown is a responsibility of Her Majesty in right of a province. Peter Grey 04:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
The point is there is nothing in the Statute of Westminster that refers to there being different crowns in each country, let alone anything that comments on their status to each other ie nothing to contradict Rouleau's notion that we are all "under the British Crown". 67.70.21.67 05:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter, you're spouting trivia that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. 67.70.21.67 05:37, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Unquestioningly
"Given all of the above it can be nothing but illogic to call the Crown in Right of Canada "British." "
Rouleau refers to it as the "British Crown" repeatedly and as nothing else so, evidently, it is not illogical to call it that. User:AndyL00:38, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
It can't be illogical since, as Rouleau pointed out, they are one and the same. Fact #1 in the summary.) Peter Grey 02:12, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
So we're in agreement. Excellent. You should come over to Talk:Commonwealth Realm where gbambino has lost himself in his arguments AndyL02:58, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
A few points referred to elsewhere:
Peter Grey 6 July 2005 20:22 (UTC) Also, Wikipedia's article on monarchy makes this observation:
Peter Grey 9 July 2005 14:06 (UTC)
An anon editor keeps adding republican websites to the external links section - they don't belong in this article. Monarchist website links don't belong on Citizens for a Canadian Republic, and rightly so, and republican web links don't belong here. This article focuses on a single organization - Monarchist League of Canada. SouthernComfort 8 July 2005 10:38 (UTC)
Please cite policy stating that relevent external links to opposing organizations do not belong? I am not familiar with this policy. Are you saying "they do not belong" because it is against the rules or because you don't want it there? I'm afraid the two are not the same thing. AndyL 8 July 2005 10:53 (UTC)
Mediation has been requested for this article. I am reviewing the sides currently. If there are any objections to my mediating, please say so.- SV| t 18:00, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Given that there are actually no current content disputes vis-a-vis the article it's unclear what there is to mediate. AndyL12:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Some of this (not all, just some) is coming down to mixing informal uses and precise legal language. "Crown", in legal documents in Canada, is the most general term, meaning the state as represented by the person of the monarch. It is with Crown that the Commonwealth Realms are in a personal union relationship. "Her Majesty in right of..." is the term used when precision is desired (or "Her Majesty" where context is sufficient). Thus British Crown vs. Canadian Crown is a meaningless discussion. (unless and until Canada, the UK, or both alter their constitutional law).
"Crown" is also used in an informal sense, meaning the institution of the monarchy or the person of the Sovereign acting as Head of State. "Canadian Crown" in this sense means the practical role of the Queen as exercised within Canada, possibly including the office of Governor-General of Canada, in whatever ways (maybe many, maybe few) it operates in a uniquely Canadian fashion. Peter Grey 20:23, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
The MLC as an organization has no affiliation with any political parties -- as the article states the League is non-partisan. If Paul Benoit is associated with a party, it is as an individual and not as an officer of the League, therefore it should ideally be mentioned in a biographical article about him, but barring that, simply as a brief mention in this article.
I wonder though, will the political leanings of Tom Freda, Pierre Vincent, et all, be included in the CCR article? -- gbambino 16:40, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the information regarding Benoit should be included in some form. I'm fine with your rendering - I couldn't find anything stating he took a leave of absence from the MLC executive (as would be usual for leaders of a non-partisan organization when running for a political party) which is why I wrote the section as I did.
As for your question, I think if Freda or Vincent were to run for public office or get a job as a political staffer for an MP or were to be employed by a political party that would merit mentioning in the CCR article. -- Homey 64.231.225.206 21:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm just wondering what the point of the Scandal section is? Since it refers only to personal matters of a member of the MLC, and does not directly involve the MLC, why is it even mentioned? And even if it was to remain on the article, why would it be called a "Scandal"? Unless someone wants to support keeping this section of the article, I will soon remove it. Please reply! PrinceAndrew 00:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
How can the organization be non-partisan if it promotes the retention of Canada as a realm of the British Crown? Certainly there are political parties in Canada which oppose this. 76.186.118.246 ( talk) 05:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Not to scare anybody. But, this article's fate is being mentioned at Wikipedia: Articles for deletion/Citizens for a Canadian Republic. -- GoodDay ( talk) 01:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
What does the League use their flag for? Do they fly it? Can anyone fly it or do you have to be in the group?
Regarding the chronology for the Young Monarchist Group- When was it started? Can this page, http://www.monarchist.ca/en/chronology, which lists a chronology of league events, be cited or incorporated in the section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sampsondecoder ( talk • contribs) 03:18, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
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Previous discussions:
I've been observing these articles on Canadian monarchy for some time, but have chosen not to get involved due to my focus on other articles. Firstly, I believe that if there were copyvio issues with the previous version, then it should have been completely rewritten, not deleted. Secondly, I would like to urge all parties involved here to stick to the facts concerning the Canadian monarchy. Though an American, I am well acquainted with the Monarchist League to know that their positions do not generally deviate from the official positions of the Canadian government (despite potentially revisionist attempts first put into motion by the Trudeau government) concerning the status of the constitutional monarchy. For example, the Queen of Canada is just that - the Queen of Canada. This is a fact. I was greatly saddened to see that the Queen of Canada article was deleted and redirected to Monarchy in Canada, which explained in detail her distinctly Canadian position. This redirection is, in my view, an attempt to deny her position as Queen of Canada.
Again, I would like to reiterate that the Monarchist League is an organization which seeks to promote awareness and education of the Canadian monarchy - it's positions are not based upon mere opinion, but are firmly grounded in history - the same history which is also officially promoted (though often neglected, considering the current state of Canadian awareness concerning the monarchy) by the Canadian government. Canadian heritage should not be denied, no matter what anyone's politics might be. Canadian republicans can argue against the monarchy (and the Monarchist League), but IMHO, they should not promote their views as being fact (i.e. that the Canadian monarchy is actually British). SouthernComfort 5 July 2005 08:34 (UTC)
I think you've gotten things somewhat reversed. No one is saying that the article should assert *as fact* that the monarchy is British. Rather, the objection is to asserting, as fact, that the monarchy is *Canadian* when that is actually contested. What should be said is that some people believe that the monarchy is Canadian, others assert it is British ie we should be NPOV and not take a position. AndyL 5 July 2005 12:41 (UTC)
Legally Canadian, perhaps though Rouleau and the Royal Titles Act suggests more legally British than Canadian' in any meaningful sense "simultanesouly British, Canadian, Bahamian, New Zeladander" contestable, "distinctly Canadian" or with "distinct Canadian features" also debatable and not something most reasonable people would agree to. What the MLC advocates argue is "distinct" others would say is minutia. AndyL 5 July 2005 16:15 (UTC)
"Relying on decisions of Canadian courts of law and on Canadian legislation " both of which refer to the monarchy as British. The only thing gbambino could come up with in response was an Australian ruling from a court that has no jurisdiction in Canada. AndyL 5 July 2005 18:37 (UTC)
"Is there a post-Pearson/Trudeau source for this claim that the monarchy is British?"
Yes, scroll up and read the excerpts from the Rouleau decision made in 2003 in which the learned justice repeatedly refers to the "British Crown" that Canada is "under". Mandarins in the Department of Canadian Heritage can write what they like on their websites but they do not interpret the law or the constitution, that's left to judges. AndyL 5 July 2005 22:38 (UTC)
"I also think it best to stick to the current facts and state of Canadian monarchy, rather than relying on legally obsolete sources (big difference between Canada pre-1950s and post)."
Again, the Rouleau decision came down in 2003. I suggest that when you jump into the middle of the debate it's best to acquaint yourself with what's been said rather than assume you're up to speed. Please take a moment and read the entire talk page so that we don't have to cover the same ground again. AndyL 5 July 2005 22:45 (UTC)
"n other words, the Canadian monarchy was officially linked to the United Kingdom (as well as the French) in the past, but no longer is so (since the 1960s, if I am not mistaken)"
Sorry but you're mistaken. For one thing nothing happened in the 1960s that would have changed the constitutional relationship in question. Secondly, when something did happen in 1982, it changed the relationship but did not break it.
Again, read Rouleau and read the Schedule of the Constitution Act, 1982 and you'll find that we remain linked through the Act of Settlement amongst other constitutional documents. AndyL 5 July 2005 22:45 (UTC)
"It only states that the Crown is of British 'origin."
Where is the word "origin" used in Rouleau's decision?
I see:
He specifically refers to the Crown as "the British Crown" but I don't see the word "origin" anywhere. Do you? Or did you just interpolate the word? Earlier you asked "Is there a post-Pearson/Trudeau source for this claim that the monarchy is British?" Clearly Rouleau (above) says that the Crown is "the British Crown". He doesn't say we are united under the Candian Crown, or that there is a British Crown and a Candian Crown and that they're good friends but distinct from each other. No, he says that we and other Commonwealth nations are in a "Union under the British Crown". The phrase "British origin" is your invention; it exists no where in Rouleau's decision.
Then explain why the phrase "Canadian monarchy" or "Canadian Crown" does not appear at all in the judge's ruling while "British Crown" or "Crown of Great Britain" appears several times and not just in context to ruling over Britain but ruling over Canada? I'm sorry if this contradicts your preconceptions (or what you've read on some Ministry of Canadian Heritage website) but if you read what is actually there and not what you think it should say you'll see you're claims are completely false. AndyL 6 July 2005 00:35 (UTC)
As for the word mandarin, it's a synonym for civil servant. See for instance [1] or [2] or [3] AndyL 6 July 2005 00:16 (UTC)
Re mandarins, see also the first definition listed on wikipedia's mandarin page or the Mandarin (China) article which states:
AndyL 6 July 2005 00:27 (UTC)
" I wasn't trying to say that he himself used the word "origin."" You implied it. +
"He does not use the term to imply that the British monarchy rules over Canada" He explictly said that Canada is "under the the British Crown" How can you possibly interpret that to say the British monarchy does not rule over Canada?
" If that were true, then if the UK abolished the monarchy there, then Canada would also cease to have a monarchy. But that isn't the case."
Are you seriously suggesting that if Britain abolished the monarchy nothing would happen in Canada?
"the Queen does not rule over Canada as Queen of the UK, but as Queen of Canada." She is "Queen of Canada because she is Queen of the United Kingdom".
"The Canadian monarchy is separate from the British monarchy." If that were the case then the Queen of Canada would be free to be a Roman Catholic or marry one. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:15 (UTC)
"As for "Canadian Crown," Gbambino stated that the Canadian monarchy has no official name, which is why the judge used "British Crown" in the absence of an official name"
That is the most illogical thing I've ever read. The use of the term "British Crown" does not logically follow from the absence of an "official name" for the Canadian monarchy. It does not explain why the judge chose to use the phrase "British Crown" to the complete exclusion of the phrase "Canadian Crown". Gbambino is no authority, just because he makes up an explanation to rationalise away an inconvenient fact does not make it so. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:15 (UTC)
That is the whole point of reductio ad absurdum arguments, isn't it? I'm still waiting for you to tell me how you can read Rouleau's statement that we are "under the British Crown" as meaning the opposite of those words. I'm still waiting for you to explain where Rouleau says the Canadian and British monarchies are "seperate" and "distinct" when he says no such thing? I'm still waiting for you to explain how it is that the rules of succession to the position of monarch in Canada are determined by an arcance British law? Please explain to me why a Catholic cannot be Queen of Canada even though we have no state church and have a Charter of Rights that bans discrimination on the basis of religion? I'm waiting for you to expalin how all this can be when, at the same time, the monarchy is "not British"? I'm still waiting for you to explain how Canada can be a sovereign country independent of Britain and British laws when, at the same time, we cannot change the rules governing the succession to the "Canadian throne" without the consent of the British parliament? The British parliament, however, can unilaterally amend the preamble of the Statute of Westminster and then the Act of Settlement if it so wishes with or without our consent. How so? Because the Act of Settlement and Statute of Westminster are mere statute law in Britain and can simply be amended by the British Parliament while, in Canada, the Statute of Westminster is entrenched in our Constitution which is not statute law. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:37 (UTC)
"Such a claim, if true, would also mean that Canada is not really independent and sovereign that the government of the UK, in reality, controls Canada."
The British Crown and the British government are not the same thing. We are not ruled by the government of the UK. We are, however, reigned over by the British Crown. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:37 (UTC)
The Act of Settlement is not a "tradition", it's an act of the parliament at Westminster. Catholics are not barred from the throne out of "tradition", they are barred by law. [ And while Canadian or Australian courts cannot, it seems, strike down the Act of Settlement it is conceivable that a British (or European) court could if it rules that the Act is in violation with the EU's human rights charter. And, as I said, the British Parliament can unilaterally rescind the bar on Catholics while Canada's parliament cannot. So yes, the UK has more power over the Crown in Canada than Canada itself does. AndyL 6 July 2005 02:18 (UTC)
"Please see Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox"
The point is that the claim some are trying to put in the article that the Crown is "not British" is not an objective fact, rather it is POV and contestable. That is the entire point of my argument. The arguments you dismiss make that point as does your inability to rebut them. No where am I arguing that the wikipedia article(s) should state as fact that the Crown is not Canadian (meaning you are putting forward a
straw dog argument). If Britain were to change the rules of succession unilaterally, that would change the "Canadian Crown". If Canada were to somehow change the rules of succession uniltarally the converse would not be true.
AndyL 6 July 2005 02:30 (UTC)
And, as I said earlier, a UK or European court could conceivably strike down the Act of Settlement. A Canadian court cannot. AndyL 6 July 2005 02:50 (UTC)
Also note the following in the Rouleau decision: [33] As a result of the Statute of Westminster it was recognized that any alterations in the rules of succession would no longer be imposed by Great Britain and, if symmetry among commonwealth countries were to be maintained, any changes to the rules of succession would have to be agreed to by all members of the Commonwealth. This arrangement can be compared to a treaty among the Commonwealth countries to share the monarchy under the existing rules and not to change the rules without the agreement of all signatories. While Canada as a sovereign nation is free to withdraw from the arrangement and no longer be united through common allegiance to the Crown, it cannot unilaterally change the rules of succession for all Commonwealth countries. Unilateral changes by Canada to the rules of succession, whether imposed by the court or otherwise, would be contrary to the commitment given in the Statute of Westminster, would break symmetry and breach the principle of union under the British Crown set out in the preamble to the Constitution Act, 1867. Such changes would, for all intents and purposes, bring about a fundamental change in the office of the Queen without securing the authorizations required pursuant to s. 41 of the Constitution Act, 1982. Peter Grey 6 July 2005 04:39 (UTC)
I didn't say Canada could and indeed, as you point out (and as I argued) Canada is unable to amend the succession rules unilaterally. However, Britain can and that's my entire point! You've said nothing that disagrees with my point, indeed, everythig you says only further affirms it.
But they do in regards to Britain and that is my point. Let's say the European Court of Human Rights strikes down the sections of the Act of Settlement barring Catholics from the British throne. What would happen then? AndyL 6 July 2005 16:55 (UTC)
"But you see, what I am trying to convey is that for you to interpret "British Crown" as meaning that the British monarchy rules over Canada, that is your personal interpretation and opinion. You can't state that as fact and the Canadian government apparently disagrees with you, otherwise they would go around talking about the "British monarchy"" rather than "Canadian monarchy."
Gbambino has sufficiently explained these points (concerning the technicalities of the Crown) in this talk and Talk:Monarchy in Canada
Peter, I noticed you grouped all my points together and then failed to respond to any of them. Is that because you are conceding those points? Do you affirm or deny the following, for example: 1. (Rouleau) *did not* speak of separate or distinct crowns. I'm glad you agree. 2. (The Act of Settlement/exclusion of Catholics from the throne) is designed to meet historical British interests. There is no reason for Catholics to be excluded from the Canadian throne as the Church of England is not our state church. The only reason for this requirement is to meet the needs of Britain's constitutional arrangement. 3. The point is that we cannot have a Catholic Queen because it violates the precepts of the *British* constitution. There is no domestic reason for this requirement, the reason is entirely British yet it means that we have rules governing the succession to our throne which are anathama to Canadian values of religious equality. AndyL 6 July 2005 17:27 (UTC)
There are two principles in the succession of the Crown in Canada: the succession is unchanged from the constitutional situation in 1931, and the succession is identical in all the Commonwealth Realms. (Rouleau alluded to these.) The (highly unlikely) hypothetical situation you're discussing could, possibly, bring these principles into conflict. Rouleau made a useful analogy, that of an international treaty, and your scenario would be like the UK renegging on its obligations. As the UK is a sovereign state, Canada cannot prevent this (and vice versa). Either Canadian courts of law would resolve this, or Parliament (of Canada), or constitutional amendment would resolve the conflict, if it was determined there was one. You're suggesting the UK solution would be automatically adopted in Canada, which is obviously incorrect, not to mention original research. Peter Grey 6 July 2005 18:26 (UTC)
Automatic, no, virtually assured, yes. It is inconceivable that if the UK changed the Statute of Westminister or Act of Settlement on its own (and while for Canada's purposes the Statute may be "like a treaty" for Britain's purposes, it's a simple statute) Canada would want to go it alone and risk having its own resident monarchy. Indeed, Canada's political system has developed around the assumption that the monarch is an absentee monarch (hence the need for a Governor-General). Actually having a monarch permanently resident in Rideau Hall is simply not politically palatable either to the politicians or to the general population. Therefore, the practical reality is that if the UK were forced to or chose to unilaterally change the Act of Settlement, Canada would be bound to either accept that or ditch the monarchy entirely - the possibility of maintaining the succession rules as they are is so remote as to not be worth serious consideration. Also, if the UK were to decide to become a republic, the chances of Canada not following suit are so remote as to be neglible for the same reason - there is no appetite in Canada for a resident monarchy, the constitution is not designed for it, the political establishment would not want it and I suspect there'd be minimal support amongst the population and a great deal of opposition. We've had 50 years or so with a monarch who is only here 2% of the time and almost a century before that with monarchs who were around none of the time. Going from 2 miles an hour to 100 would be a shock the Canadian political system would not be prepared to undertake, I'm afraid. Conversely, if Canada were to become a republic tomorrow the impact on the UK would be zilch.
Even if you are not prepared to concede that if the UK became a republic, so would Canada, you have no choice but to admit that Britain becoming a republic would unleash a huge debate in Canada. Moreover, the coming of a resident monarchy would open up a hornet's nest of constitutional and political difficulties - even you have to admit that - since our constitution is designed with an absentee monarch in mind. AndyL 6 July 2005 19:03 (UTC)
I am acknowledging that whereas I am dealing with practical reality, you are dealing with fantasy and legal fictions. Are you willing to bet $10,000 that if the UK became a republic Canada would not follow suit? AndyL 6 July 2005 19:11 (UTC)
You also have to recognise that constitutions are informed by convention and the convention, I dare say, is that our succession rules will not diverge from the British succession rules. The notion that our monarchies are separate and distinct is a fantasy and Rouleau, does not say our monarchies are separate, quite the opposite, he speaks of unity "under the Crown of Great Britain" and that is what this debate is actually about, whether or not our Crown is "not British". You have presented no evidence that it isn't, you've only given us sophist theory that has a complete lack of grounding in reality or, for that matter, in constitutional law. AndyL 6 July 2005 19:11 (UTC)
Recently, it has not been the custom of the British government to consult with the Commonwealth realms on matters dealing with the monarchy. For instance, there was no consultation on the matter of Charles' divorce some years ago, nor was there any consultation on the whole question of Charles marrying Camilla Parker-Bowles or her future title.
In any case, you avoid the relevent question regarding the "Canadian Crown" being "not British". Do you stand by that? If not then it has no place in the article. AndyL 6 July 2005 19:57 (UTC)
As for "political speculation", you are speculating that if Britain were to become a republic it would have no impact on Canada's constitutional situation. Obviously that is wrong since our constitution is not designed for a resident monarch. A change in the UK monarchy impacts Canada, the opposite does not impact Britain; to say this is not "speculation", it's a realistic assesment based on our constitutional and political realities. Constitutions exist in the real world, not in text books. Simply saying discussion is out of bounds is not a refutation, rather it's an admission that you cannot refute the point being made. What has "no place" in wikipedia are the personal attacks you've descended to. AndyL
Yes, and I haven't objected to the article's current wording. AndyL
I agree, we've gone off on a tangent. AndyL
As for "original research", I wasn't suggesting that any of this go into the article, I was just explaining how it is incorrect to assert that the "Canadian monarchy" was distinct and separate from the British monarchy. AndyL 9 July 2005 13:22 (UTC)
Point 3 below refers to governments, not to "Crowns". AndyL 9 July 2005 13:49 (UTC)
I guess the drafters of the Statute of Westminster were incorrect then when they used the phrase "His Majesty's Governments" if the crown is part of the government. Indeed, I guess the phrase "His Majesty's government" and "Her Majesty's government" must be thrown out. Perhaps you should send an email to Buckingham Palace asking the Queen to be "more precise". Anyway, the Statute is in regards to the equality of the British dominions with Westminster, it does not deal with the Crown and does not imply there are seperate crowns rather than one (as the phrase "His Majesty's Governments" makes clear). Indeed, Rouleau makes it quite clear there is a British crown under which we are united. AndyL 9 July 2005 15:21 (UTC)
Stop being tedious. What do you *think* the Statute of Westminster meant by the phrase "His Majesty's Governments" and what do you think is usually meant by the phrase "Her Majesty's Government"? If you want to split hairs I suggest you go to a barber shop. AndyL 9 July 2005 16:02 (UTC)
"Read (1) and (2) below again." I was referring to (3) below which is an inprecise reading of what the Statute actually says. Anyway, you're getting into tediously arcane arguments, yet again which may hold great fascination for monarchists but bore the rest of us to tears. AndyL 9 July 2005 16:07 (UTC)
":Your statement was unrelated to (3)."
I find that hard to accept as my statement was: "Point 3 below refers to governments, not to "Crowns"."
Are you now going to start arguing with me about what the word "unrelated" means? Or perhaps the meaning of "was" or "statement" or "your"? AndyL 9 July 2005 16:28 (UTC)
In response to your picayune nit-picking, let me rephrase my original statement to "Point 3 (below) refers to Her Majesty's Governments existing concurrently in Britain and the various realms and not to the Crown itself. AndyL 22:52, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
That's your POV. AndyL 01:24, 10 July 2005 (UTC) - It's the definition of " equal". Peter Grey 04:46, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
There's also no indication in the Statute that there is a "both" ie that there is more than one crown. You are reading that in. 01:49, 10 July 2005 (UTC) - Not everything has to be in the Statute of Westminster. The person of the Queen is the Crown shared between the Commonwealth Realms, Canada Post is a Crown corporation, meaning Her Majesty in right of Canada is the sole shareholder, a Ward of the Crown is a responsibility of Her Majesty in right of a province. Peter Grey 04:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
The point is there is nothing in the Statute of Westminster that refers to there being different crowns in each country, let alone anything that comments on their status to each other ie nothing to contradict Rouleau's notion that we are all "under the British Crown". 67.70.21.67 05:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter, you're spouting trivia that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. 67.70.21.67 05:37, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Unquestioningly
A few points referred to elsewhere:
Peter Grey 6 July 2005 20:22 (UTC) Also, Wikipedia's article on monarchy makes this observation:
Peter Grey 9 July 2005 14:06 (UTC)
An anon editor keeps adding republican websites to the external links section - they don't belong in this article. Monarchist website links don't belong on Citizens for a Canadian Republic, and rightly so, and republican web links don't belong here. This article focuses on a single organization - Monarchist League of Canada. SouthernComfort 8 July 2005 10:38 (UTC)
Please cite policy stating that relevent external links to opposing organizations do not belong? I am not familiar with this policy. Are you saying "they do not belong" because it is against the rules or because you don't want it there? I'm afraid the two are not the same thing. AndyL 8 July 2005 10:53 (UTC)
Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.
Previous discussions:
I've been observing these articles on Canadian monarchy for some time, but have chosen not to get involved due to my focus on other articles. Firstly, I believe that if there were copyvio issues with the previous version, then it should have been completely rewritten, not deleted. Secondly, I would like to urge all parties involved here to stick to the facts concerning the Canadian monarchy. Though an American, I am well acquainted with the Monarchist League to know that their positions do not generally deviate from the official positions of the Canadian government (despite potentially revisionist attempts first put into motion by the Trudeau government) concerning the status of the constitutional monarchy. For example, the Queen of Canada is just that - the Queen of Canada. This is a fact. I was greatly saddened to see that the Queen of Canada article was deleted and redirected to Monarchy in Canada, which explained in detail her distinctly Canadian position. This redirection is, in my view, an attempt to deny her position as Queen of Canada.
Again, I would like to reiterate that the Monarchist League is an organization which seeks to promote awareness and education of the Canadian monarchy - it's positions are not based upon mere opinion, but are firmly grounded in history - the same history which is also officially promoted (though often neglected, considering the current state of Canadian awareness concerning the monarchy) by the Canadian government. Canadian heritage should not be denied, no matter what anyone's politics might be. Canadian republicans can argue against the monarchy (and the Monarchist League), but IMHO, they should not promote their views as being fact (i.e. that the Canadian monarchy is actually British). SouthernComfort 5 July 2005 08:34 (UTC)
I think you've gotten things somewhat reversed. No one is saying that the article should assert *as fact* that the monarchy is British. Rather, the objection is to asserting, as fact, that the monarchy is *Canadian* when that is actually contested. What should be said is that some people believe that the monarchy is Canadian, others assert it is British ie we should be NPOV and not take a position. AndyL 5 July 2005 12:41 (UTC)
Legally Canadian, perhaps though Rouleau and the Royal Titles Act suggests more legally British than Canadian' in any meaningful sense "simultanesouly British, Canadian, Bahamian, New Zeladander" contestable, "distinctly Canadian" or with "distinct Canadian features" also debatable and not something most reasonable people would agree to. What the MLC advocates argue is "distinct" others would say is minutia. AndyL 5 July 2005 16:15 (UTC)
"Relying on decisions of Canadian courts of law and on Canadian legislation " both of which refer to the monarchy as British. The only thing gbambino could come up with in response was an Australian ruling from a court that has no jurisdiction in Canada. AndyL 5 July 2005 18:37 (UTC)
"Is there a post-Pearson/Trudeau source for this claim that the monarchy is British?"
Yes, scroll up and read the excerpts from the Rouleau decision made in 2003 in which the learned justice repeatedly refers to the "British Crown" that Canada is "under". Mandarins in the Department of Canadian Heritage can write what they like on their websites but they do not interpret the law or the constitution, that's left to judges. AndyL 5 July 2005 22:38 (UTC)
"I also think it best to stick to the current facts and state of Canadian monarchy, rather than relying on legally obsolete sources (big difference between Canada pre-1950s and post)."
Again, the Rouleau decision came down in 2003. I suggest that when you jump into the middle of the debate it's best to acquaint yourself with what's been said rather than assume you're up to speed. Please take a moment and read the entire talk page so that we don't have to cover the same ground again. AndyL 5 July 2005 22:45 (UTC)
"n other words, the Canadian monarchy was officially linked to the United Kingdom (as well as the French) in the past, but no longer is so (since the 1960s, if I am not mistaken)"
Sorry but you're mistaken. For one thing nothing happened in the 1960s that would have changed the constitutional relationship in question. Secondly, when something did happen in 1982, it changed the relationship but did not break it.
Again, read Rouleau and read the Schedule of the Constitution Act, 1982 and you'll find that we remain linked through the Act of Settlement amongst other constitutional documents. AndyL 5 July 2005 22:45 (UTC)
"It only states that the Crown is of British 'origin."
Where is the word "origin" used in Rouleau's decision?
I see:
He specifically refers to the Crown as "the British Crown" but I don't see the word "origin" anywhere. Do you? Or did you just interpolate the word? Earlier you asked "Is there a post-Pearson/Trudeau source for this claim that the monarchy is British?" Clearly Rouleau (above) says that the Crown is "the British Crown". He doesn't say we are united under the Candian Crown, or that there is a British Crown and a Candian Crown and that they're good friends but distinct from each other. No, he says that we and other Commonwealth nations are in a "Union under the British Crown". The phrase "British origin" is your invention; it exists no where in Rouleau's decision.
Then explain why the phrase "Canadian monarchy" or "Canadian Crown" does not appear at all in the judge's ruling while "British Crown" or "Crown of Great Britain" appears several times and not just in context to ruling over Britain but ruling over Canada? I'm sorry if this contradicts your preconceptions (or what you've read on some Ministry of Canadian Heritage website) but if you read what is actually there and not what you think it should say you'll see you're claims are completely false. AndyL 6 July 2005 00:35 (UTC)
As for the word mandarin, it's a synonym for civil servant. See for instance [4] or [5] or [6] AndyL 6 July 2005 00:16 (UTC)
Re mandarins, see also the first definition listed on wikipedia's mandarin page or the Mandarin (China) article which states:
AndyL 6 July 2005 00:27 (UTC)
" I wasn't trying to say that he himself used the word "origin."" You implied it. +
"He does not use the term to imply that the British monarchy rules over Canada" He explictly said that Canada is "under the the British Crown" How can you possibly interpret that to say the British monarchy does not rule over Canada?
" If that were true, then if the UK abolished the monarchy there, then Canada would also cease to have a monarchy. But that isn't the case."
Are you seriously suggesting that if Britain abolished the monarchy nothing would happen in Canada?
"the Queen does not rule over Canada as Queen of the UK, but as Queen of Canada." She is "Queen of Canada because she is Queen of the United Kingdom".
"The Canadian monarchy is separate from the British monarchy." If that were the case then the Queen of Canada would be free to be a Roman Catholic or marry one. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:15 (UTC)
"As for "Canadian Crown," Gbambino stated that the Canadian monarchy has no official name, which is why the judge used "British Crown" in the absence of an official name"
That is the most illogical thing I've ever read. The use of the term "British Crown" does not logically follow from the absence of an "official name" for the Canadian monarchy. It does not explain why the judge chose to use the phrase "British Crown" to the complete exclusion of the phrase "Canadian Crown". Gbambino is no authority, just because he makes up an explanation to rationalise away an inconvenient fact does not make it so. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:15 (UTC)
That is the whole point of reductio ad absurdum arguments, isn't it? I'm still waiting for you to tell me how you can read Rouleau's statement that we are "under the British Crown" as meaning the opposite of those words. I'm still waiting for you to explain where Rouleau says the Canadian and British monarchies are "seperate" and "distinct" when he says no such thing? I'm still waiting for you to explain how it is that the rules of succession to the position of monarch in Canada are determined by an arcance British law? Please explain to me why a Catholic cannot be Queen of Canada even though we have no state church and have a Charter of Rights that bans discrimination on the basis of religion? I'm waiting for you to expalin how all this can be when, at the same time, the monarchy is "not British"? I'm still waiting for you to explain how Canada can be a sovereign country independent of Britain and British laws when, at the same time, we cannot change the rules governing the succession to the "Canadian throne" without the consent of the British parliament? The British parliament, however, can unilaterally amend the preamble of the Statute of Westminster and then the Act of Settlement if it so wishes with or without our consent. How so? Because the Act of Settlement and Statute of Westminster are mere statute law in Britain and can simply be amended by the British Parliament while, in Canada, the Statute of Westminster is entrenched in our Constitution which is not statute law. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:37 (UTC)
"Such a claim, if true, would also mean that Canada is not really independent and sovereign that the government of the UK, in reality, controls Canada."
The British Crown and the British government are not the same thing. We are not ruled by the government of the UK. We are, however, reigned over by the British Crown. AndyL 6 July 2005 01:37 (UTC)
The Act of Settlement is not a "tradition", it's an act of the parliament at Westminster. Catholics are not barred from the throne out of "tradition", they are barred by law. [ And while Canadian or Australian courts cannot, it seems, strike down the Act of Settlement it is conceivable that a British (or European) court could if it rules that the Act is in violation with the EU's human rights charter. And, as I said, the British Parliament can unilaterally rescind the bar on Catholics while Canada's parliament cannot. So yes, the UK has more power over the Crown in Canada than Canada itself does. AndyL 6 July 2005 02:18 (UTC)
"Please see Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox"
The point is that the claim some are trying to put in the article that the Crown is "not British" is not an objective fact, rather it is POV and contestable. That is the entire point of my argument. The arguments you dismiss make that point as does your inability to rebut them. No where am I arguing that the wikipedia article(s) should state as fact that the Crown is not Canadian (meaning you are putting forward a
straw dog argument). If Britain were to change the rules of succession unilaterally, that would change the "Canadian Crown". If Canada were to somehow change the rules of succession uniltarally the converse would not be true.
AndyL 6 July 2005 02:30 (UTC)
And, as I said earlier, a UK or European court could conceivably strike down the Act of Settlement. A Canadian court cannot. AndyL 6 July 2005 02:50 (UTC)
Also note the following in the Rouleau decision: [33] As a result of the Statute of Westminster it was recognized that any alterations in the rules of succession would no longer be imposed by Great Britain and, if symmetry among commonwealth countries were to be maintained, any changes to the rules of succession would have to be agreed to by all members of the Commonwealth. This arrangement can be compared to a treaty among the Commonwealth countries to share the monarchy under the existing rules and not to change the rules without the agreement of all signatories. While Canada as a sovereign nation is free to withdraw from the arrangement and no longer be united through common allegiance to the Crown, it cannot unilaterally change the rules of succession for all Commonwealth countries. Unilateral changes by Canada to the rules of succession, whether imposed by the court or otherwise, would be contrary to the commitment given in the Statute of Westminster, would break symmetry and breach the principle of union under the British Crown set out in the preamble to the Constitution Act, 1867. Such changes would, for all intents and purposes, bring about a fundamental change in the office of the Queen without securing the authorizations required pursuant to s. 41 of the Constitution Act, 1982. Peter Grey 6 July 2005 04:39 (UTC)
I didn't say Canada could and indeed, as you point out (and as I argued) Canada is unable to amend the succession rules unilaterally. However, Britain can and that's my entire point! You've said nothing that disagrees with my point, indeed, everythig you says only further affirms it.
But they do in regards to Britain and that is my point. Let's say the European Court of Human Rights strikes down the sections of the Act of Settlement barring Catholics from the British throne. What would happen then? AndyL 6 July 2005 16:55 (UTC)
"But you see, what I am trying to convey is that for you to interpret "British Crown" as meaning that the British monarchy rules over Canada, that is your personal interpretation and opinion. You can't state that as fact and the Canadian government apparently disagrees with you, otherwise they would go around talking about the "British monarchy"" rather than "Canadian monarchy."
Gbambino has sufficiently explained these points (concerning the technicalities of the Crown) in this talk and Talk:Monarchy in Canada
Peter, I noticed you grouped all my points together and then failed to respond to any of them. Is that because you are conceding those points? Do you affirm or deny the following, for example: 1. (Rouleau) *did not* speak of separate or distinct crowns. I'm glad you agree. 2. (The Act of Settlement/exclusion of Catholics from the throne) is designed to meet historical British interests. There is no reason for Catholics to be excluded from the Canadian throne as the Church of England is not our state church. The only reason for this requirement is to meet the needs of Britain's constitutional arrangement. 3. The point is that we cannot have a Catholic Queen because it violates the precepts of the *British* constitution. There is no domestic reason for this requirement, the reason is entirely British yet it means that we have rules governing the succession to our throne which are anathama to Canadian values of religious equality. AndyL 6 July 2005 17:27 (UTC)
There are two principles in the succession of the Crown in Canada: the succession is unchanged from the constitutional situation in 1931, and the succession is identical in all the Commonwealth Realms. (Rouleau alluded to these.) The (highly unlikely) hypothetical situation you're discussing could, possibly, bring these principles into conflict. Rouleau made a useful analogy, that of an international treaty, and your scenario would be like the UK renegging on its obligations. As the UK is a sovereign state, Canada cannot prevent this (and vice versa). Either Canadian courts of law would resolve this, or Parliament (of Canada), or constitutional amendment would resolve the conflict, if it was determined there was one. You're suggesting the UK solution would be automatically adopted in Canada, which is obviously incorrect, not to mention original research. Peter Grey 6 July 2005 18:26 (UTC)
Automatic, no, virtually assured, yes. It is inconceivable that if the UK changed the Statute of Westminister or Act of Settlement on its own (and while for Canada's purposes the Statute may be "like a treaty" for Britain's purposes, it's a simple statute) Canada would want to go it alone and risk having its own resident monarchy. Indeed, Canada's political system has developed around the assumption that the monarch is an absentee monarch (hence the need for a Governor-General). Actually having a monarch permanently resident in Rideau Hall is simply not politically palatable either to the politicians or to the general population. Therefore, the practical reality is that if the UK were forced to or chose to unilaterally change the Act of Settlement, Canada would be bound to either accept that or ditch the monarchy entirely - the possibility of maintaining the succession rules as they are is so remote as to not be worth serious consideration. Also, if the UK were to decide to become a republic, the chances of Canada not following suit are so remote as to be neglible for the same reason - there is no appetite in Canada for a resident monarchy, the constitution is not designed for it, the political establishment would not want it and I suspect there'd be minimal support amongst the population and a great deal of opposition. We've had 50 years or so with a monarch who is only here 2% of the time and almost a century before that with monarchs who were around none of the time. Going from 2 miles an hour to 100 would be a shock the Canadian political system would not be prepared to undertake, I'm afraid. Conversely, if Canada were to become a republic tomorrow the impact on the UK would be zilch.
Even if you are not prepared to concede that if the UK became a republic, so would Canada, you have no choice but to admit that Britain becoming a republic would unleash a huge debate in Canada. Moreover, the coming of a resident monarchy would open up a hornet's nest of constitutional and political difficulties - even you have to admit that - since our constitution is designed with an absentee monarch in mind. AndyL 6 July 2005 19:03 (UTC)
I am acknowledging that whereas I am dealing with practical reality, you are dealing with fantasy and legal fictions. Are you willing to bet $10,000 that if the UK became a republic Canada would not follow suit? AndyL 6 July 2005 19:11 (UTC)
You also have to recognise that constitutions are informed by convention and the convention, I dare say, is that our succession rules will not diverge from the British succession rules. The notion that our monarchies are separate and distinct is a fantasy and Rouleau, does not say our monarchies are separate, quite the opposite, he speaks of unity "under the Crown of Great Britain" and that is what this debate is actually about, whether or not our Crown is "not British". You have presented no evidence that it isn't, you've only given us sophist theory that has a complete lack of grounding in reality or, for that matter, in constitutional law. AndyL 6 July 2005 19:11 (UTC)
Recently, it has not been the custom of the British government to consult with the Commonwealth realms on matters dealing with the monarchy. For instance, there was no consultation on the matter of Charles' divorce some years ago, nor was there any consultation on the whole question of Charles marrying Camilla Parker-Bowles or her future title.
In any case, you avoid the relevent question regarding the "Canadian Crown" being "not British". Do you stand by that? If not then it has no place in the article. AndyL 6 July 2005 19:57 (UTC)
As for "political speculation", you are speculating that if Britain were to become a republic it would have no impact on Canada's constitutional situation. Obviously that is wrong since our constitution is not designed for a resident monarch. A change in the UK monarchy impacts Canada, the opposite does not impact Britain; to say this is not "speculation", it's a realistic assesment based on our constitutional and political realities. Constitutions exist in the real world, not in text books. Simply saying discussion is out of bounds is not a refutation, rather it's an admission that you cannot refute the point being made. What has "no place" in wikipedia are the personal attacks you've descended to. AndyL
Yes, and I haven't objected to the article's current wording. AndyL
I agree, we've gone off on a tangent. AndyL
As for "original research", I wasn't suggesting that any of this go into the article, I was just explaining how it is incorrect to assert that the "Canadian monarchy" was distinct and separate from the British monarchy. AndyL 9 July 2005 13:22 (UTC)
Point 3 below refers to governments, not to "Crowns". AndyL 9 July 2005 13:49 (UTC)
I guess the drafters of the Statute of Westminster were incorrect then when they used the phrase "His Majesty's Governments" if the crown is part of the government. Indeed, I guess the phrase "His Majesty's government" and "Her Majesty's government" must be thrown out. Perhaps you should send an email to Buckingham Palace asking the Queen to be "more precise". Anyway, the Statute is in regards to the equality of the British dominions with Westminster, it does not deal with the Crown and does not imply there are seperate crowns rather than one (as the phrase "His Majesty's Governments" makes clear). Indeed, Rouleau makes it quite clear there is a British crown under which we are united. AndyL 9 July 2005 15:21 (UTC)
Stop being tedious. What do you *think* the Statute of Westminster meant by the phrase "His Majesty's Governments" and what do you think is usually meant by the phrase "Her Majesty's Government"? If you want to split hairs I suggest you go to a barber shop. AndyL 9 July 2005 16:02 (UTC)
"Read (1) and (2) below again." I was referring to (3) below which is an inprecise reading of what the Statute actually says. Anyway, you're getting into tediously arcane arguments, yet again which may hold great fascination for monarchists but bore the rest of us to tears. AndyL 9 July 2005 16:07 (UTC)
":Your statement was unrelated to (3)."
I find that hard to accept as my statement was: "Point 3 below refers to governments, not to "Crowns"."
Are you now going to start arguing with me about what the word "unrelated" means? Or perhaps the meaning of "was" or "statement" or "your"? AndyL 9 July 2005 16:28 (UTC)
In response to your picayune nit-picking, let me rephrase my original statement to "Point 3 (below) refers to Her Majesty's Governments existing concurrently in Britain and the various realms and not to the Crown itself. AndyL 22:52, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
That's your POV. AndyL 01:24, 10 July 2005 (UTC) - It's the definition of " equal". Peter Grey 04:46, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
There's also no indication in the Statute that there is a "both" ie that there is more than one crown. You are reading that in. 01:49, 10 July 2005 (UTC) - Not everything has to be in the Statute of Westminster. The person of the Queen is the Crown shared between the Commonwealth Realms, Canada Post is a Crown corporation, meaning Her Majesty in right of Canada is the sole shareholder, a Ward of the Crown is a responsibility of Her Majesty in right of a province. Peter Grey 04:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
The point is there is nothing in the Statute of Westminster that refers to there being different crowns in each country, let alone anything that comments on their status to each other ie nothing to contradict Rouleau's notion that we are all "under the British Crown". 67.70.21.67 05:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Peter, you're spouting trivia that has nothing to do with what we're talking about. 67.70.21.67 05:37, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Unquestioningly
"Given all of the above it can be nothing but illogic to call the Crown in Right of Canada "British." "
Rouleau refers to it as the "British Crown" repeatedly and as nothing else so, evidently, it is not illogical to call it that. User:AndyL00:38, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
It can't be illogical since, as Rouleau pointed out, they are one and the same. Fact #1 in the summary.) Peter Grey 02:12, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
So we're in agreement. Excellent. You should come over to Talk:Commonwealth Realm where gbambino has lost himself in his arguments AndyL02:58, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
A few points referred to elsewhere:
Peter Grey 6 July 2005 20:22 (UTC) Also, Wikipedia's article on monarchy makes this observation:
Peter Grey 9 July 2005 14:06 (UTC)
An anon editor keeps adding republican websites to the external links section - they don't belong in this article. Monarchist website links don't belong on Citizens for a Canadian Republic, and rightly so, and republican web links don't belong here. This article focuses on a single organization - Monarchist League of Canada. SouthernComfort 8 July 2005 10:38 (UTC)
Please cite policy stating that relevent external links to opposing organizations do not belong? I am not familiar with this policy. Are you saying "they do not belong" because it is against the rules or because you don't want it there? I'm afraid the two are not the same thing. AndyL 8 July 2005 10:53 (UTC)
Mediation has been requested for this article. I am reviewing the sides currently. If there are any objections to my mediating, please say so.- SV| t 18:00, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
Given that there are actually no current content disputes vis-a-vis the article it's unclear what there is to mediate. AndyL12:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Some of this (not all, just some) is coming down to mixing informal uses and precise legal language. "Crown", in legal documents in Canada, is the most general term, meaning the state as represented by the person of the monarch. It is with Crown that the Commonwealth Realms are in a personal union relationship. "Her Majesty in right of..." is the term used when precision is desired (or "Her Majesty" where context is sufficient). Thus British Crown vs. Canadian Crown is a meaningless discussion. (unless and until Canada, the UK, or both alter their constitutional law).
"Crown" is also used in an informal sense, meaning the institution of the monarchy or the person of the Sovereign acting as Head of State. "Canadian Crown" in this sense means the practical role of the Queen as exercised within Canada, possibly including the office of Governor-General of Canada, in whatever ways (maybe many, maybe few) it operates in a uniquely Canadian fashion. Peter Grey 20:23, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
The MLC as an organization has no affiliation with any political parties -- as the article states the League is non-partisan. If Paul Benoit is associated with a party, it is as an individual and not as an officer of the League, therefore it should ideally be mentioned in a biographical article about him, but barring that, simply as a brief mention in this article.
I wonder though, will the political leanings of Tom Freda, Pierre Vincent, et all, be included in the CCR article? -- gbambino 16:40, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I think the information regarding Benoit should be included in some form. I'm fine with your rendering - I couldn't find anything stating he took a leave of absence from the MLC executive (as would be usual for leaders of a non-partisan organization when running for a political party) which is why I wrote the section as I did.
As for your question, I think if Freda or Vincent were to run for public office or get a job as a political staffer for an MP or were to be employed by a political party that would merit mentioning in the CCR article. -- Homey 64.231.225.206 21:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm just wondering what the point of the Scandal section is? Since it refers only to personal matters of a member of the MLC, and does not directly involve the MLC, why is it even mentioned? And even if it was to remain on the article, why would it be called a "Scandal"? Unless someone wants to support keeping this section of the article, I will soon remove it. Please reply! PrinceAndrew 00:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
How can the organization be non-partisan if it promotes the retention of Canada as a realm of the British Crown? Certainly there are political parties in Canada which oppose this. 76.186.118.246 ( talk) 05:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Not to scare anybody. But, this article's fate is being mentioned at Wikipedia: Articles for deletion/Citizens for a Canadian Republic. -- GoodDay ( talk) 01:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
What does the League use their flag for? Do they fly it? Can anyone fly it or do you have to be in the group?
Regarding the chronology for the Young Monarchist Group- When was it started? Can this page, http://www.monarchist.ca/en/chronology, which lists a chronology of league events, be cited or incorporated in the section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sampsondecoder ( talk • contribs) 03:18, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
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