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Heraldry has been nominated to be improved by Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. Vote for this article there if you want to contribute. -- Fenice 19:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
For DannyWilde "removed apparently bogus category "Japanese family"; please let me know if this category is necessary" , [1]
"Mon" are not a Japanese family, obviously, but they are linked to a family. I assume that the inclusion or non-inclusion of this category depends on how you understand the category. Rama 09:46, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Why are mon called 'crests' when crests in European heraldry serve a completely different function? Surely we can find a better word - 'badge' seems to me a lot closer. 130.132.143.49 06:57, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Fwiw, Jim_Lockhart 05:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)* (7) : an emblem, badge, device, or other object regularly used as a symbol (as of a family, tribe, or nation) -- usually used only of emblems employed among peoples who do not practice the European system of heraldry <the Indians ... mark off the hunting ground selected by them by blazing the trees with their crests -- American Anthrop. Association Memoir> [emphasis mine]
Calling the article "Mon (Japanese heraldry)" seems like the most sensible option. Then the article can go on to say that mons are unique to Japan and have no direct Western eqivalent, and say that many words like "crest" "badge" etc are used to describe it; the article could describe mons as "symbols" (probably the most general term unlikely to cuase controversy). The rest of the article can use the word mon (as it is now). 202.89.157.142 10:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Isn't the first pic a bit misleading? It never identifies where the chrysanthemums are in the image. Readers who know nothing about Japan could either take the entire badge to be the mon or take the central sun. I could be bold and edit, but I have no idea how I'd succinctly say that there are four depictions of the actual mon on the green wreath. Greentubing 11:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I've made three edits today—apologies, though, for doing them in three sessions instead of one. Personally, I prefer crest to badge, as I've explained above; but I didn't change the terminology because I think a consensus has to be reached first. I did add a comment to the effect that kamon are generally known as crests because I think we ignore this usage at our peril even if the ultimate consensus goes for badge. I rewrote the captions, especially the one under the graphic showing the Order of the Chrysanthemum, mostly because they were quite clumsily written.
Finally, I wonder whether the statements "Virtually all modern Japanese families have a mon, though modern usage is rare. Individuals, instead, use an inkan for official purposes and business transactions" are factually accurate. Without a definition of "modern family", the first is too much of a generalization; and I don't get the correlation implied by the second between family crests and inkan, since to my knowledge the two have absolutely nothing to do with one another, nor were they ever used interchangeably. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 06:50, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is an image of the Emperor's mon if anyone wants to include it. Greentubing 12:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Much thanks to the editor who posted images and names of a great many mon. However, there is no indication given of which mon belong to which clan... Adding that in would make this article far more useful. Thanks. LordAmeth 12:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I see this has been debated before but with no clear concensus. I've requested a rename to Mon (crest) for the following arguments:
1. "Crest" is simply the correct term for the Japanese mon. It is used universally in dictionaries, encyclopaedias and academic publications.
2. ...and the reason crest is prefered is that, firstly, mon originated from helmet decorations, thus similar to the meaning of crest in western heraldry;
3. ...and secondly, mon are generally held by clans rather than individuals, which again is similar to how crests in western heraldry are often shared by armigers of the same family.
Of course, Japanese mon and western heraldry are completely different things with non-interchangeable terminology. As such we should not call mon badges just for their superficial resemblance.
I have also proposed a merger from
Japanese heraldry to this page. To put it simply, there is no such thing as "Japanese heraldry" above and beyond the mon; mon is Japanese heraldry, and that page has no reason of existing.
o
22:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I was bold and moved the article. I will be moving the other one, too, because it just makes sense. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
At the end of the article there's this big list of "representative kamon". First of all, how are these mon representative? I doubt altogether the usefulness of having this list. To anyone who doesn't already know how mon are named (even to a Japanese speaker), these names are almost meaningless. If we can make a gallery, great, but if not this list just clutter up the page. I hesitate to remove them because I know it's somebody's work. But I just don't see the point. That said, I think it could be nice to expand on the naming of mon. o ( talk) 16:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I came here hoping for a full list of the kamon I saw while in a shop in the japanese countryside about a year ago. The "List of representative kamon" does not even contain half of the kamon they had. I even bought a wooden amulet there, containing the "kaminari" (thunder) kamon. It would seem logic to either list all of them or just the interesting ones, in which case we should explain why each of the ones we chose was of special interest.
The article also leaves me wondering, is there even a complete list? Does anyone know? JoaCHIP ( talk) 21:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
I see it was already discussed, but I have issue calling this a crest. It is not. I know many books refer to it as a crest, but that is because there is no word in Western culture that translates mon correctly. Crest was well understood when Western culture began writing on the subject, and the term was used merely to give Western readers a simple and known equivalent. It is not a badge either, which is another European heraldic device. It is an emblem, which is any pictorial device, so I am changing it to that out of correctness. Many sources mistakenly refer to seals, badges, coats of arms and other emblems as crests, but I see no reason to propagate these errors. [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 04:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
The opening paragraph states that "[w]hile mon is an encompassing term that may refer to any such device, kamon and mondokoro refer specifically to emblems used to identify a family", but is there any detail on semantic difference between the two terms? 所 in 紋所 (mondokoro) means "place", so I would take it that mondokoro refers more to an area than kamon, which is for a family? Can anyone elaborate on the meaning, or point me in the right direction? — Sasuke Sarutobi ( talk) 15:26, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
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![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Heraldry has been nominated to be improved by Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. Vote for this article there if you want to contribute. -- Fenice 19:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
For DannyWilde "removed apparently bogus category "Japanese family"; please let me know if this category is necessary" , [1]
"Mon" are not a Japanese family, obviously, but they are linked to a family. I assume that the inclusion or non-inclusion of this category depends on how you understand the category. Rama 09:46, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Why are mon called 'crests' when crests in European heraldry serve a completely different function? Surely we can find a better word - 'badge' seems to me a lot closer. 130.132.143.49 06:57, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Fwiw, Jim_Lockhart 05:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)* (7) : an emblem, badge, device, or other object regularly used as a symbol (as of a family, tribe, or nation) -- usually used only of emblems employed among peoples who do not practice the European system of heraldry <the Indians ... mark off the hunting ground selected by them by blazing the trees with their crests -- American Anthrop. Association Memoir> [emphasis mine]
Calling the article "Mon (Japanese heraldry)" seems like the most sensible option. Then the article can go on to say that mons are unique to Japan and have no direct Western eqivalent, and say that many words like "crest" "badge" etc are used to describe it; the article could describe mons as "symbols" (probably the most general term unlikely to cuase controversy). The rest of the article can use the word mon (as it is now). 202.89.157.142 10:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Isn't the first pic a bit misleading? It never identifies where the chrysanthemums are in the image. Readers who know nothing about Japan could either take the entire badge to be the mon or take the central sun. I could be bold and edit, but I have no idea how I'd succinctly say that there are four depictions of the actual mon on the green wreath. Greentubing 11:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I've made three edits today—apologies, though, for doing them in three sessions instead of one. Personally, I prefer crest to badge, as I've explained above; but I didn't change the terminology because I think a consensus has to be reached first. I did add a comment to the effect that kamon are generally known as crests because I think we ignore this usage at our peril even if the ultimate consensus goes for badge. I rewrote the captions, especially the one under the graphic showing the Order of the Chrysanthemum, mostly because they were quite clumsily written.
Finally, I wonder whether the statements "Virtually all modern Japanese families have a mon, though modern usage is rare. Individuals, instead, use an inkan for official purposes and business transactions" are factually accurate. Without a definition of "modern family", the first is too much of a generalization; and I don't get the correlation implied by the second between family crests and inkan, since to my knowledge the two have absolutely nothing to do with one another, nor were they ever used interchangeably. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 06:50, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is an image of the Emperor's mon if anyone wants to include it. Greentubing 12:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Much thanks to the editor who posted images and names of a great many mon. However, there is no indication given of which mon belong to which clan... Adding that in would make this article far more useful. Thanks. LordAmeth 12:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I see this has been debated before but with no clear concensus. I've requested a rename to Mon (crest) for the following arguments:
1. "Crest" is simply the correct term for the Japanese mon. It is used universally in dictionaries, encyclopaedias and academic publications.
2. ...and the reason crest is prefered is that, firstly, mon originated from helmet decorations, thus similar to the meaning of crest in western heraldry;
3. ...and secondly, mon are generally held by clans rather than individuals, which again is similar to how crests in western heraldry are often shared by armigers of the same family.
Of course, Japanese mon and western heraldry are completely different things with non-interchangeable terminology. As such we should not call mon badges just for their superficial resemblance.
I have also proposed a merger from
Japanese heraldry to this page. To put it simply, there is no such thing as "Japanese heraldry" above and beyond the mon; mon is Japanese heraldry, and that page has no reason of existing.
o
22:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I was bold and moved the article. I will be moving the other one, too, because it just makes sense. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
At the end of the article there's this big list of "representative kamon". First of all, how are these mon representative? I doubt altogether the usefulness of having this list. To anyone who doesn't already know how mon are named (even to a Japanese speaker), these names are almost meaningless. If we can make a gallery, great, but if not this list just clutter up the page. I hesitate to remove them because I know it's somebody's work. But I just don't see the point. That said, I think it could be nice to expand on the naming of mon. o ( talk) 16:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I came here hoping for a full list of the kamon I saw while in a shop in the japanese countryside about a year ago. The "List of representative kamon" does not even contain half of the kamon they had. I even bought a wooden amulet there, containing the "kaminari" (thunder) kamon. It would seem logic to either list all of them or just the interesting ones, in which case we should explain why each of the ones we chose was of special interest.
The article also leaves me wondering, is there even a complete list? Does anyone know? JoaCHIP ( talk) 21:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
I see it was already discussed, but I have issue calling this a crest. It is not. I know many books refer to it as a crest, but that is because there is no word in Western culture that translates mon correctly. Crest was well understood when Western culture began writing on the subject, and the term was used merely to give Western readers a simple and known equivalent. It is not a badge either, which is another European heraldic device. It is an emblem, which is any pictorial device, so I am changing it to that out of correctness. Many sources mistakenly refer to seals, badges, coats of arms and other emblems as crests, but I see no reason to propagate these errors. [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 04:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
The opening paragraph states that "[w]hile mon is an encompassing term that may refer to any such device, kamon and mondokoro refer specifically to emblems used to identify a family", but is there any detail on semantic difference between the two terms? 所 in 紋所 (mondokoro) means "place", so I would take it that mondokoro refers more to an area than kamon, which is for a family? Can anyone elaborate on the meaning, or point me in the right direction? — Sasuke Sarutobi ( talk) 15:26, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
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