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Quoting from Britannica (2006 edition):
"After the Mycenaean civilization declined, Epirus was the launching area of the Dorian invasions (1100–1000 BC) of Greece. The region's original inhabitants were driven southward by the Dorians, and out of the ensuing migrations three main clusters of Greek-speaking tribes emerged in Epirus: the Thesproti of southwestern Epirus, the Molossi of central Epirus, and the Chaones of northwestern Epirus. They lived in clusters of small villages, in contrast to most other Greeks, who lived in or around city-states." ...continues... "In the 5th century Epirus was still on the periphery of the Greek world. To the 5th-century historian Thucydides, the Epirotes were “barbarians.” The only Epirotes regarded as Greek were the Aeacidae, who were members of the Molossian royal house and claimed descent from Achilles"
According to the odds, the Molossians were Greek-speaking peoples who got gradually semi-barbarized and then re-Hellenized during the Hellenistic period. By any interpretation, they were originally a Greek (i.e. Greek-speaking) tribal people, most likely of Dorian blood. Miskin 02:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I feel quite funny to have to point the obvious to simple-minded people but what the hell, here goes.
A couple of points on how this encyclopedia works:
Arguing with you has in several occasions proved to be a case of mental masturbation, which is why I'm not affected by your petty attempts of delivering insult. If I'm a nationalist, then you're not so different from the simple-minded Macedonian Slav and Albanian editors whose only purpose is to put down other peoples in order to feel better about their pathetic existence. Your constant anthellenic attitude on historical articles has proven this. Miskin 16:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
This is a case where Wikipedia:Neutral point of view applies, because — despite Britannica and probably many other sources — the evidence is sparse and differing opinions among the scholars do not represent an insignificant minority. See Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial. Jimmy Wales: "The NPOV policy is absolute and non-negotiable." Alexander 007 19:48, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
How were my edits a "parrot" to Britannica? Britannica takes for granted that all Epirotes were originally Greek-speaking peoples, however I specifically included that this is not factual. What bothers you is the label of "Greek" when applied to the origin of various ancient peoples for which an alternative theory exists. You completely ignore the fact that a source like Britannica is supposed to reflect the most widely accepted opinion. What bothers me in turn in this biased attitude of yours. Miskin 22:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Don't try to intimidate me be parroting Jimmy Wales. I know what NPOV policy is about. Britannica is actually presented by WP:POLICY as an example of a neutral source ("Tertiary sources like reputable encyclopedias, such as the Encyclopædia Britannica" [3]). I wouldn't even take it that far, fallacies and biased content can be found everywhere, nevertheless, none of it is present on the specific article. Miskin 22:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
A different article states: "Toward the end of the Mycenaean period the Thessali entered the fertile plain from Thesprotía in southern Epirus and imposed an aristocratic rule on the older inhabitants. " [4] (on the origin of the Thessalians. Are all the ancient greek related articles biased and badly informed or maybe it's time for you to start accepting facts? Miskin 22:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I am satisfied with your latest revision of the lead sentence; it is accurate. I accept facts after I have reviewed the evidence, not because Britannica says this or that. Alexander 007 22:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I respect both of you and I really wish you could relax a bit here :) talk to +MATIA 22:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Any comment on Herodotus and the origin of some of the Athenians? talk to +MATIA 22:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that after mentioning the 12 cities of the Ionian League, he has a small comment about the ten "tribes" and relates some of them with Molossians (or a mythical descendant of Molossus). talk to +MATIA 23:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Guys, another more direct quotation of Herodotus of the Molossians as Hellenes are the paragraphs [6.126-7]:
126. Then in the next generation after this, Cleisthenes the despot of Sikyon exalted the family, so that it became of much more note among the Hellenes than it had been formerly. For Cleisthenes the son of Arisonymos, the son of Myron, the son of Andreas, had a daughter whose name was Agariste; and as to her he formed a desire to find out the best man of all the Hellenes and to assign her to him in marriage. So when the Olympic games were being held and Cleisthenes was victor in them with a four- horse chariot, he caused a proclamation to be made, that whosoever of the Hellenes thought himself worthy to be the son-in-law of Cleisthenes should come on the sixtieth day, or before that if he would, to Sikyon; for Cleisthenes intended to conclude the marriage within a year, reckoning from the sixtieth day. Then all those of the Hellenes who had pride either in themselves or in their high descent, came as wooers, and for them Cleisthenes had a running- course and a wrestling-place made and kept them expressly for their use.
127. From Italy came Smindyrides the son of Hippocrates of Sybaris, who of all men on earth reached the highest point of luxury (now Sybaris at this time was in the height of its prosperity), and Damasos of Siris, the son of that Amyris who was called the Wise; these came from Italy: from the Ionian gulf came Amphimnestos the son of Epistrophos of Epidamnos, this man from the Ionian gulf: from Aitolia came Males, the brother of that Titormos who surpassed all the Hellenes in strength and who fled from the presence of men to the furthest extremities of the Aitolian land: from Peloponnesus, Leokedes the son of Pheidon the despot of the Argives, that Pheidon who established for the Peloponnesians the measures which they use, and who went beyond all other Hellenes in wanton insolence, since he removed from their place the presidents of the games appointed by the Eleians and himself presided over the games at Olympia,--his son, I say, and Amiantos the son of Lycurgos an Arcadian from Trapezus, and Laphanes an Azanian from the city of Paios, son of that Euphorion who (according to the story told in Arcadia) received the Dioscuroi as guests in his house and from thenceforth was wont to entertain all men who came, and Onomastos the son of Agaios of Elis; these, I say, came from Peloponnesus itself: from Athens came Megacles the son of that Alcmaion who went to Crœsus, and besides him Hippocleides the son of Tisander, one who surpassed the other Athenians in wealth and in comeliness of form: from Eretria, which at that time was flourishing, came Lysanias, he alone from Eubœa: from Thessalia came Diactorides of Crannon, one of the family of the Scopadai: and from the Molossians, Alcon.
If some of the elder members want to put it in the main page plase do ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.48.23.92 ( talk) 02:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Quote: "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."
E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62
Quote: "We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 78
Quote:
"When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the
central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled
plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations."
E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 98
Quote:
"As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for
service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were
doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994
Quote: "Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks." Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece", Penguin Publ., 1996
EPIRUS ("Hpeiros", Mainland)
North-west area of Greece, from Acroceraunian point to Nicopolis, with harbours at Buthrotum and Glycys Limen (at Acheron's mouth); bordered on south by gulf of Ambracia, and on east by Pindus range with pass via Metsovo to Thessaly.
Three limestone ranges parallel to the coast and the Pindus range enclose narrow valleys and plateaux with good pasture and extensive woods; alluvial plains were formed near Buthrotum, Glycys Limen, and Ambracia.
Epirus had a humid climate and cold winters. In terrain and in history it resembled Upper Macedonia. Known in the 'Iliad' only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.
Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.
A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 ("Arx.Ef".1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC.
Dynastic troubles weakened the Molossian state, until Pyrrhus removed his fellow king and embarked on his adventurous career.
The most lasting of his achievements were the conquest of southern Illyria, the development of Ambracia as his capital, and the building of fortifications and theaters, especially the large one at Dodona.
His successors suffered from wars with Aetolia, Macedon, and Illyria, until in c.232 BC the Molossian monarchy fell.
An Epirote League with a federal citizenship was then created, and the meetings of its council were held probably by rotation at Dodona or Passaron in Molossis, at Gitana in Thesprotis, and at Phoenice in Chaonia.
It was soon involved in the wars between Rome and Macedon, and it split apart when the Molossian state alone supported Macedon and was sacked by the Romans in 167 BC, when 150,000 captives were deported.
Central Epirus never recovered; but northern Epirus prospered during the late republic, and Augustus celebrated his victory at Actium by founding a Roman colony at Nicopolis.
Under the empire a coastal road and a road through the interior were built from north to south, and Buthrotum was a Roman colony.
Ancient remains testify to the great prosperity of Epirus in Hellenistic times. N.G.L.Hammond, "Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.546,547
The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots." Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press, 1990.
Quote:
The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the
northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia....
Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge
University Press, 1997
Quote: Alexander was King Philip's eldest legitimate child. His mother, Olympias,came from the ruling clan of the northwestern Greek region of Epirus.
David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World", Oxford, 1995
Quote: Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect).
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994
the Satyres by Juvenal
Quote: The molossians were the most powerfull people of Epirus, whose kings had extended their dominion over the whole country. They traced their descent back to Pyrrhus, son of Acchilles.. Page 225
"The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew
Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking; Quote: Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking Page 284
"The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume 6, the Fourth Century BC" by D M Lewis, Martin Ostwald, Simon Hornblower, John Boardman
Quote: however, in central Epirus the only fortified places were in the plain of Ioannina, the centre of the Molossian state. Thus the North-west Greek-speaking tribes were at a half-way stage economically and politically, retaining the vigour of a tribal society and reaching out in a typically Greek manner towards a larger political organization. Quote: In 322 B.C when Antipater banished banished the anti-Macedonian leaders of the Greek states to live 'beyond the Ceraunian Mountains' (plut. Phoc. 29.3) he regarded Epirus as an integral part of the Greek-speaking mainland. Page 443
Quote: The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group. Page 423
A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography, Mythology and Geography" by William Smith
Quote: Molossi (Μολοσσοί), a people in Epirus, who inhabited a narrow slip of country, called after them Molossia (Μολοσσία) or Molossis, which extended from the Aous, along the western bank of the Arachthus, as far as the Ambracian Gulf. The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself. In their new abodes they intermingled with the original inhabitants of the land and with the neighbouring illyrian tribes of which they were regarded by the other Greeks as half barbarians. They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron,but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting.
That they [Dorians] were related to the North-West Dialects (of Phocis, Locris, Aetolia, Acarnania and Epirus) was not perceived clearly by the ancients History of the Language Sciences: I. Approaches to Gender II. Manifestations By Sylvain Auroux, page 439
Quote:
the western greek people (with affinities to the Epirotic tribes) in Orestis, Lyncus, and parts of Pelagonia;
"In the shadow of Olympus.." By Eugene Borza, page 74
Quote:
Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, was himself simply a military adventurer. He was none the less a soldier of fortune that he traced back his pedigree to Aeacus and Achilles
Quote:
He [Pyrrhus] has been compared to Alexander of Macedonia; and certainly the idea of founding a Hellenic empire of the west--which would have had as its core Epirus, Magna Graecia, and Sicily, would have commanded both the Italian seas, and would have reduced Rome and Carthage to the rank of barbarian peoples bordering on the Hellenistic state-system,like the Celts and the Indians--was analogous in greatness and boldness to the idea which led the Macedonian king over the Hellespont.
Quote: he was the first Greek that met the Romans in battle. With him began those direct relations between Rome and Hellas, on which the whole subsequent development of ancient, and an essential part of modern, civilization are based. Quote: this struggle between Rome and Hellenism was first fought out in the battles between Pyrrhus and the Roman generals; Quote: But while the Greeks were beaten in the battlefield as well as in the senate-hall, their superiority was none the less decided on every other field of rivalry than that of politics; and these very struggles already betokened that the victory of Rome over the Hellenes would be different from her victories over Gauls and Phoenicians, and that the charm of Aphrodite only begins to work when the lance is broken and the helmet and shield are laid aside. Theodor Mommsen History of Rome, From the Abolition of the Monarchy in Rome to the Union of Italy, The Historical Position Of Pyrrhus
Quote:
That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was NOWHERE suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;
Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking. "The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew ,page 284.
Quote:
The Epirotes, who may fairly be considered as Greeks by blood, long maintained a rugged independence under native chiefs, who were little more than leaders in war.
A Manual of Greek Antiquities
Book by Percy Gardner, Frank Byron Jevons; Charles Scribner's Sons, 1895, page 8
Why there was a need to change the "Greek" to "Greek speaker"? All the sources use the language of the Mollosians as an evidence of their origin. (I am not aware of any none Greek but Greek speaking population in archaic Greece.) Also the above sources are enough about the origin of the Epirotans in general. Seleukosa ( talk) 10:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
To quote Brill's New Pauly: Ancient authors saw the inhabitants of E[pirus] as bárbaroi (βάρβαροι, Thuc. 1,47,3; Scymn. 444f.; Str. 7,7,1) and as related to the Macedonians (Str. 7,7,8). This is disingenuous nationalism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
The map in this article uses blue to signify 'Thracian' tribes, and includes the Paeonians as such. Hammond in his 'Macedonian State' on page 40 makes it clear that the Paeonians had their own language and customs, while the Thracians were dominant east of Paeonia. I haven't edited the map out as it's the best available for the moment and the article is dealing more with the west than the east anyways, but it might be prudent to keep an eye out for something more accurate. Fimbria ( talk) 11:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I am placing the Albania TF tag and I hope no one will revert me. Since there is a lot of archaeological research in Albania about the Molossians (they lived in territories where Greeks and Albanians have coexisted, such as in the Gjin Bue Shpata state, or in the Pashalik of Janina state, or even now in some areas linked to the existence of Molossians. I think it's important to include this under the Albania TF. -- sulmues ( talk) 14:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I revert this edit which was made by an anonymous user identified as vandalism; the anonymous user changed the word "ancient Greek" with the word "Illyrian" contrary to the sources that state the opposite. The same user has vandalised the page in the same way many times before, see article's history. The Cat and the Owl ( talk) 19:51, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I've been moving through the article making minor grammatical and sentence-level changes. I am not an expert, or even well acquainted with the topic. I was considering removing the direct quote, the "inscription," mentioned in the section on "Molossian royalty." To me the quote is nearly incomprehensible, and I think it adds very little. However, I thought I would check to see if the editor who first added the quote could clarify it a little if he/she thought it appropriate. I realize that we cannot simply add punctuation or change the syntax of a direct quote; perhaps a summary of the contents would be more beneficial in this situation than a direct quote.
The people mentioned in the inscription (besides Alexander) are not mentioned elsewhere in the article. The article's preceding explanation illuminates the terms in the first part of the quote (assuming the reader groups the words correctly without the aid of punctuation), but the reader would probably have no understanding of the last bit about the descent line of Kreston. --
MattMauler (
talk) 14:10, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
I read that Molessians were greek?! What? Molossians were an Illyrian tribe. I have studied it a lot in Germany and what I am reading here is just wrong. I made some changes from greek to Illyrians.
I'm sorry but you need to explain your point and support it with wp:rs. As I can see the current version is well sourced, thus you need to provide strong arguments against a long established consensus. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:18, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
How about an etymolgy for the word "Molossian". ... > Molossós; "from Ancient Greek μολοσσός (molossós), properly "belonging to the Molossians", a people in the eastern part of Epirus." ... that it "belongs to the Molossians" is crystal clear. But simply not clear enough. What is the meaning of "Molossian"? LAGTON ( talk) 14:59, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
It would be UNDUE to term their origin as a "disputed" since the works of Nilsson (1951) and Meyer (1893) who supported an Illyrian origin are severely outdated. Not to mention they had not access to archaeological material unearthed post-1950s. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Nonetheless such views, which largely rely on subjective ancient testimonies are not supported by the earliest (and not only) epigraphic texts.. Nilsson is from...1909 for crying out loud. Case closed. Khirurg ( talk) 16:50, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Based on linguistic arguments, earlier historians of the standing Beloch, Wilamowitz, and Hammond were in favor of a Hellenic origin, whereas equally influential scholars including Nilsson and Meyer held that the Epirotes were of Illyrians stock. (...) Malkin, following Hammond, goes on to shows that Greek was spoken, at least from the 5th century BC on, by the Molossians, but is careful to note that the Molossians may have had Greek as a cultural language without actually being Greek.- so no, you're not removing Nilsson in any way, shape or form. If modern bibliography chooses to discuss his later work in comparison to that of Hammond, wikipedia will do so too.
Irad Malkin of Tel Aviv University followed Hammond and argued the Epirotes were Greek speakers, but left open the possibility that Greek might have been the prestige language which was spoken at least from the 5th century BC without the Molossians themselves necessarily being Greeks.That is not what the source says - so when I correct that I expect to not see any more revert-warring (you too have 5-6 reverts together in the past 24 hours) and I also expect from now on a closer reading of bibliography in order to not mess up references about different eras and make correction even more difficult afterwards.
The presentation of the inscriptions ends with a summary, including a comparative table of letter types and a table with a comprehensive presentation of the dating of the inscriptions. M. suggests that some of the most important inscriptions of Dodona date to the first half of the third and not to the fourth century B.C.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:05, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
"On top of this, one must also take into account the fact that while the earlierst texts normally come from Corinthian colonies like Ambracia or from Dodona, which were certainly not representative sites of the whole of Epirus; on the other hand, most epigraphic texts date to the late Classical/Hellenistic period...-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:51, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
some early oracular tablets from Dodona, may be related to Epirus[5]. Besides scholars know to differentiate the various inscriptions. If they were Illyrians, Illyrian onomastics dating from the Archaic period would have surely been found. Instead, there is no such evidence. Dodona was through and through a Greek sanctuary, and in fact considered the oldest Greek oracle. And it lay smack in the middle of Epirus. Khirurg ( talk) 03:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
due to Proxenos, who flattered the royal house with an unsurpassed and excessive abuse of mythology, and that apart from the native names of Tharyps and Arrybas "all other male members of the house have names take from the Trojan myth (...) This plundering of mythical names is contrary to the principles of Greek nomenclature in the classical age in which the heroic names were not given to living men. The whole story shows the overdone eagerness of a barbarian house to appear as heroic Greeks.So, what this Proxenos helped the Molossians do, was a very un-Greek thing (to the eyes of someone from Athens or Sparta). Actually, most of the people named Neoptolemos (after the Trojan figure) appear in the periphery of ancient Greece: from Neoptolemus I of Epirus to this Persian-Pontic figure, Neoptolemus (Pontic general). It's an evolution of Greekness, but it's not one single identity which maintained itself through ages. It became more inclusive. Just like, for example, the modern American identity is changing and becoming more inclusive. That is my "endgame": not to show that they were Illyrians or non-Greek per se, but to show the evolution of identity.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
I'm sure though that if the Illyrians lived in the periphery...Now how's that for original research. And the Illyrians did have many contacts with Greeks from the coastal colonies. Many became Hellenized, but not in the way you claim the Molossians did. And you know this. Khirurg ( talk) 03:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
due to Proxenos, who flattered the royal house with an unsurpassed and excessive abuse of mythology, and that apart from the native names of Tharyps and Arrybas "all other male members of the house have names take from the Trojan myth (...) This plundering of mythical names is contrary to the principles of Greek nomenclature in the classical age in which the heroic names were not given to living men. The whole story shows the overdone eagerness of a barbarian house to appear as heroic Greeks.and then you shifted the question towards "But why didn't the Illyrians do the same". That is an whataboutism which is not related at all to the first question. By this point, trying to argue about why the Molossians did so (we've got an answer) by asking "why didn't the Illyrians do" is irrelevant in relation to the original question. It's starting to get late here (my "here" at least), so we can continue tomorrow with papers from JSTOR.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 04:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
due to Proxenos, who flattered the royal house with an unsurpassed and excessive abuse of mythology, and that apart from the native names of Tharyps and Arrybas "all other male members of the house have names take from the Trojan myth (...) This plundering of mythical names is contrary to the principles of Greek nomenclature in the classical age in which the heroic names were not given to living men. The whole story shows the overdone eagerness of a barbarian house to appear as heroic Greeks.. If you want to construct your personal narratives, it's ok - but it's not something that can work in the context of wikipedia and historiography. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 01:23, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Should the lead include the following sentence about the subject of their historical origins:
Their ultimate origin is the subject of debate as various theories which place them as either ancient
Greeks,
Illyrians or semi-Hellenized tribes which underwent a process of
hellenization have been argued
. More about the issue, can be found in the article's bibliography, discussions already had and this discussion as it evolves. --
Maleschreiber (
talk) 23:39, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Oppose at outdated and Balkan nationalist POV-pushing, per my reasoning above
[6] and here. There is no such thing as "ultimate origin". What is the "ultimate origin" of any ethnic group? How many similar articles discuss the "ultimate origin" of this or that ethnic group in the lede? Does the article on
Ilyrians do so? on
Thracians? Nope. What is the "ultimate ethnic origin" of the Greeks? Of the Albanians? There is no such thing as "ultimate origin" of any ethnic group. This also carries 20th century blood-and-soil connotations, and has no place in a modern encyclopedia. The proposed sentence also relies on heavily outdated scholarship. Only sources from the 19th century to the early 20th century (e.g. Nilsson 1909, Meyer 1878) argue for any "Illyrian origin", while "semi-Hellenized" is based on a single source from 1983. On the other hand, modern scholarship is increasingly of the view that the Molossians and other Epirote tribes were Greek-speaking, as shown in this top notch source from 2018
[7], especially page 221-222
[8]. In particular I quote In spite of some ancient testimonies, the epigraphic evidence from the late Archaic period (6th-5th century BC) indicates that population of Epirus proper spoke a dialectical variety akin to the so-called North-West (NW) Doric, (or North-West Greek).
Also on p. 224
[9]: There is an overall consensus nowadays that the Greek-speaking populations of Epirus...spoke a North West Doric variety akin to numerous populations of Central and Western Greece
. Regarding the Illyrians:
[10] In fact, contact with non-Greek populations (Illyrians) in the northern part of Epirus...
., and on p. 241
[11]: The northern parts of Epirus, e.g. Chaonia, bordered on S. Illyrian territory
. In other words, the source makes it clear that Illyrians were neighbors and outsiders, and not Epirotes. This is a top notch academic source from 2018 that specializes on the subject and provides a review of the literature; it is as good a source as we could hope for. This is also the view of not just the linguistic community, but also the historical community, in particular Johannes Engels (2010) in the Oxford Companion to Macedonia, p. 83
[12]: Old genealogical links...strongly connected Epirus to the rest of Greece...and precluded any serious debate about the Greekness of the Epirotans. Epirotic language was regarded a primitive North-Western Greek dialect, but there was no discussion that it was basically Greek. Epirotans...lived an archaic way of life with old fashioned and some crude customs...Nevertheless there was never a sharp discussion of their Greekness.
and a vast body of historical literature, as shown here:
[13]. This is in stark contrast to sources such as Nilsson and Meyer, from over 100 years ago. This whole thing also has Balkan nationalist overtones, whereby Albanian nationalists try to claim an "Illyrian origin" so as to be able to claim the "rightful ownership" of the Molossians (since according to their logic they are the direct descendants of the Illyrians), or failing that, at least try to question the Greekness of the Molossians so as to "challenge" the Greek claim to Epirus (in their heads, at least). Lastly, regarding
WP:MOSLEAD, there is no "Origin" section in the article (and rightly so), but instead a culture section, which mainly discusses language and religion. Language and religion could be added to the lede, but the "origin" question is not lede material.
Khirurg (
talk) 00:01, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Support (personal comment after RfC question) Modern bibliography does consider it a subject of debate. Most of the epigraphic evidence has already existed for a long time - unfortunately little has been produced in terms of excavations in the last 40 years. Douzougli-Papadopoulos (2010):
write Based on linguistic arguments, earlier historians of the standing Beloch, Wilamowitz, and Hammond were in favor of a Hellenic origin, whereas equally influential scholars including Nilsson and Meyer held that the Epirotes were of Illyrians stock. (...) Malkin, following Hammond, goes on to shows that Greek was spoken, at least from the 5th century BC on, by the Molossians, but is careful to note that the Molossians may have had Greek as a cultural language without actually being Greek.
Filos (2018) discusses epigraphic evidence (inscriptions) in a later era while talking generally about Epirus (the first inscriptions are from Corintian colonies, not Epirote tribes in general or the Molossians in particular), thus they are not about the Epirote tribes "On top of this, one must also take into account the fact that while the earlierst texts normally come from Corinthian colonies like Ambracia or from Dodona, which were certainly not representative sites of the whole of Epirus; on the other hand, most epigraphic texts date to the late Classical/Hellenistic period...
.
Davies (2002) who has presented the last phase of epigraphic evidence writes that The ethnic mix of the region is being studied, will all appropriate reserve, both via the personal names attested epigraphically and via the mapping of the movements of peoples and crystallization of polities with the southern Balkan zone
and since 2014 epigraphic evidence has been redated in Meyer (2014) The Inscriptions of Dodona and a New History of Molossia. Stuttgart:Franz Steiner,2013. ISBN:978-3-515-10311-4. From Nakas (2014)
review: The presentation of the inscriptions ends with a summary, including a comparative table of letter types and a table with a comprehensive presentation of the dating of the inscriptions. M. suggests that some of the most important inscriptions of Dodona date to the first half of the third and not to the fourth century B.C.
(thus the chronological framework of epigraphic evidence is narrower) Winnifrith (1983) is a contemporary of the era of most archaeological material and considers these tribes
semi-hellenized. All this creates a very complex picture about a tribe that was enslaved by the Romans and left no other trace after 167 BC. The proposed sentence tries in terms of
WP:MOSLEAD to include some of that discussion - large part of which is in the body of the article - in the lead section. It's one sentence and doesn't address the issue with any modern bias IMO, nor does it attempt to deal with the subject in terms of a cohesive, monolingual, monoethnic identity - it rather tries to show the fluidity of identity in the ancient world.
cultural passport as Greeks.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 16:05, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Oppose as irrelevant and imprecise, and as per arguments of Khirurg. GPinkerton ( talk) 01:11, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Support per reasons outlined by Maleschreiber Alltan ( talk) 01:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. The sources backing "semi-hellenized" and/or "Illyrian" theories rely not only on extremely outdated scholarhip of the 20th Century, which does not serve the scope of Wikipedia which is to provide updated information, but also are contradicted by the far more recent discoveries about that group. I can't help it but I am very disturbed that the same editor whose contributions log show that he is pursuing the classic Albanian nationalist POV-pushing, is expanding his edits even on articles about historical groups that used to live in the region of Epirus, millenias ago. For those Wikipedians who are not familiar with the Albanian politics: there is a nationalist fever in the country's politics about a "rightful ownership" of Epirus and its ancient tribes - this is due to Albania's incapable politicians using the nationalist card as a means of distracting the people away from their own governorship shortcomings in dealing with the chronic but pressing issues plaguing Albania today, such as stragnant economy, political and judicial corruption, high poverty and unemployment, (these problems were reported by the Balkan Investigative Reporting Network (BIRN)) by presenting a "glorious ancient past" to their voters. Wikipedia should stay clear from such POV-pushing attempts and say a big NO to RfCs selectively picking from outdated sources just to promote a certain political narrative. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 02:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Comment. Per Khirurg's rationale, most support from sources goes to ancient Greece, so I would suggest highlighting that of the three origins, Greeks are the most likely. Instead of "Their ultimate origin is the subject of debate as various theories which place them as either ancient Greeks, Illyrians or semi-Hellenized tribes which underwent a process of hellenization have been argued," it should be "Their ultimate origin is probably ancient Greek [1], but some historians argue that they arose from Illyrians [2] or semi-Hellenized tribes [3] which underwent a process of hellenization. I included the citations within the sentence to avoid weasel words. BlacknoseDace( say something. I'm lonely!) [I'm not a reference!] 11:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
References
The Molossians were an ancient tribe which inhabited the region of Epirus on the periphery of Archaic and Classical Greece, and later became an important state during the Hellenistic area. Together with the Chaonians in the north and the Thesprotians in the south, they formed the main tribal groupings of northwestern Greece. Etc.This way you avoid telling whether they were "Greek" from the start. I also suggest calling them "Epirote" instead of Greek. The same wording could be used in all the articles related to Epirus before the Hellenistic era. T8612 (talk) 11:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Since Thucydides has already reported that though the citizens of Amphilochian Argos had brought in and Hellenized some of the neighbouring Amprakiotai, the other Amphilochoi are barbarians’ (2. 68. 5), we are meant to be left in no doubt that the Greek–barbarian boundary is real and close: the contrast with Aetolia, whose inhabitants Thucydides cannot quite bring himself to describe as barbarians,should tell us something about contemporary Athenian perceptions. Cf. also Hdt. 8. 47, clearly reflecting a sense that Thesprotia, the Acheron river, and Amprakia formed a cultural boundary; Eur. Phoen. 138 (Tydeus the Aetolian is meixobarbaros half-barbarian in his weaponry); and [Skylax] 33 (Thenceforward sc. from Ambrakia] Greece begins to be continuous as far as the Peneius river)-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 05:08, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
There is an overall consensus nowadays that the Greek-speaking population of Epirus...spoke a NorthWest Doric variety akin to that of the numerous neighboring populations of Central and Western Greece (Aetolia, Acarnania, Locris, Phocis, Doris...). This is the most recent, and most specialized source on the topic. Full stop. Khirurg ( talk) 00:02, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
In fact it was not Greek needs, ambitions or curiosity which eventually eliminated the barriers so much as a calculated effort by the ruling dynasty of one Epeirote people, the Molossoi, to manoeuvre themselves into a position of predominance within the region. (..) One truck was cultural - to present themselves as Greek (with a Trojan War ancestry) to take from Greek culture what could be turned to political use, and to manipulate the Greek political process in their own interest as best they could.There's much more nuance to this subject and few certainties in my opinion. That's all I'm trying to highlight and I'm not in favor of essentialist narratives. Before I started working on this article, it actually claimed as real history that a fictional genealogy constructed for political reasons by the ruling dynasty was real history. Even now there are editors who are trying to somehow keep that stuff in the article.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 22:17, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Support Considering that this is tribe from the Epirus area, information in this context would be desirable. If there are sources and similar informations, it should be in the articles about other Epirus tribes. It is a border area and certainly that tribes from Epirus area may be of different origins etc and this should be clearly emphasized. Mikola22 ( talk) 19:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Comment By the way, one thing I forgot to mention is that the main reason Albanian nationalists are so obsessed with the Molossians (trying to label them Illyrian or at least "not Greek"), is because Alexander the Great was half Molossian. Balkan politics at its finest. Khirurg ( talk) 16:56, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Comment What a comment about "Albanian nationalists" who "claim Alexander the Great" has to with this discussion remains unknown. Also, why would anyone want to "identify" him/herself with one conqueror/butcher/colonialist of the Eurasian plains like Alexander - in a long series of such figures? The fact the Balkan nationalisms sometimes compete for the same figures shows how common they are in fact. Now, allow the community to discuss the RfC without further interjections.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 20:15, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Oppose: I agree with the arguments put forward by Khirurg. Outdated information aside, with that rationale we may even suggest that they have an ultimate origin from Western Hunter-Gatherers, Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers, Early European Farmers, and Indo-Europeans, for the most part at least. An "ultimate origin" designation pertaining to them would be more appropriate and accurate, as is the case for most Balkan and European people likewise. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 07:22, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
I wonder how a "North-West Doric variety with distinct features" from Filos can be interpreted as a "NW Koine". It appears that all recent edits need to be checked and corrected since the sourced material isn't portrayed the correct way (inclusion of obsolete theories in lead etc.). Alexikoua ( talk)
..most epigraphic texts date to the late Classical/Hellenistic period i.e. to a time when the impact of a supraregional NW Doric koina was already felt, even though the Attic-Ionic koine eventually established itself in the region at a later time, i.e. in ca 1st c.AD.which you removed when you claimed that there was "source falsification" [18]. The exact edit in which you removed the term "NW koine" (koina in Doric) rm NW Koine: no such term in Greek linguistics. According to Filos (2017) at least it was exactly that. So, a self-revert is the correct path here IMO.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
References
Of course, scientists were astonished by this theory. In the same interwar period, the Bulgarian scholar Vladimir Georgiev maintained that the Ionians and the Achaeans were Thracians, not Greeks...So, yes, do be careful Alexikoua, about who you choose to rely on... -- Calthinus ( talk) 00:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
It appears you have an extremely POV taste of reliable material. Please do contort yourself into Picasso-level gymnastics to explain how that is not a personal attack, I'll take this sort of apology as a sign of affection. And I am glad you are learning something about when to not cite Georgiev. And thanks for the recommendation, but I'll pass, thankfully most people know not to seriously use Vlad the old commie who advocated theories to advance state interests -- and all of this about him is explicitly stated in available RS. As for the rest, I have good faith they will learn :). Cheers. -- Calthinus ( talk) 00:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Comment on original question The answer to the original question is "no". NW Doric was one variety of Greek, different variants of this variety were spoken in Epirus and in Aetolia and some other places. The NW koina was associated with the NW Doric of the Aetolian League. Which led to political connotations, because way back then, the Epirote state was not exactly buddy-buddy with the Aetolian League. However, the native Greek variety of Epirus was a dialect that was also closely related to this koina. -- Calthinus ( talk) 00:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
And it is known that only the royal households but also the tribes and cities of Epirus traced their origin or their foundation to Achaian heroes of the Mycenaean period.- that is some general information. The reason why he doesn't mention the Molossian dynasty is because the Molossian royal house didn't claim origin from any Achaean hero. It claimed dual Phthian (Thessalian via Achilles) and Trojan origin. It did so because of the political claims it gave them against their Thessalian adversaries - as is explained by Douzougli-Papadopoulos (2010) further down in the article. See, when we edit according to bibliography, logical and historical narratives emerge. When we don't do that, contradictions emerge.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 06:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
It appears that E. Meyer's suggestion on re-evaluating the date of some inscriptions is not widely accepted among book reviews. Some conclusions: "Not all historians will be convinced by the interpretations suggested in this account." "yet remain many unanswered questions." and 'further investigation is needed;. [ [21]]. If someone has access to this book it would be helpful to see Meyer's precise interpretation and which exactly inscriptions are re-dated according to her. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:42, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
The accepted view has been that this is King Alexander I (343-331 BC),1 and Meyer argues for them to be dated to the reign of King Alexander II (272-242 BC). She employs both the strong and weak criteria to show, convincingly in this reviewer’s opinion, that these inscriptions should be dated to Alexander II.. The other also embraces the newer redating. In the article, I highlighted that as
As of 2014, the previously seen as early 4th century inscriptions attributed to Neoptolemus I and his son, Alexander I of Epirus have been suggested for redating in the era of the Neoptolemus II of Epirus (about a century later) and Alexander II of Epirus respectively. This redating if accurate would have larger implications about the history of the Molossian state.Where's the controversy?-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 20:50, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
The inscription was dated, by Cabanes, in the years before 330 / 328 BC, the last years of AlexanderI.s reign. M. seems to trust in Hammond’s restoration of the name of the king (Neoptolemus, Alexander’s son) in the last line of the inscription: in fact, it is very unlikely (an unicum, in all epigraphic sources in Epirus) that the name of the king would be listed after the name of the prostatas and of the other officials (political, in common scholars’ opinion, or religious, as M. suggests).is what I've written in the article about Neoptolemus I & II. Also, don't quote bibliography in a selective manner. D'Allesandro doesn't disagree with Meyer (2014) about the dating of the inscriptions - her comments is about political interpretations that emerge from the redating - which is something that is not the in scope of my edits. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:02, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
As of 2014, the previously seen as early 4th century inscriptions attributed to Neoptolemus I and his son, Alexander I of Epirus have been suggested for redating in the era of the Neoptolemus II of Epirus (about a century later) and Alexander II of Epirus respectively. This redating if accurate would have larger implications about the history of the Molossian state.It's not an endorsement, it's not a certainty - it's how bibliography has appraised so far the redating - and we ought to report that. D'Alessandro refers to other aspects of the book (which the wiki-article doesn't discuss because we would need the book to do that), it doesn't have to do with the redating of the inscriptions which d'Alessandro also supports
The inscription was dated, by Cabanes, in the years before 330 / 328 BC, the last years of AlexanderI.s reign. M. seems to trust in Hammond’s restoration of the name of the king (Neoptolemus, Alexander’s son) in the last line of the inscription: in fact, it is very unlikely (an unicum, in all epigraphic sources in Epirus) that the name of the king would be listed after the name of the prostatas and of the other officials (political, in common scholars’ opinion, or religious, as M. suggests).I will not explain this again - read the bibliography closely.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:36, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
The irrelevant material from Chatzopoulos (1997) has been removed. It has been explained that you can't include material that doesn't refer to the subject of the article - the WP:SYNTH introduction of which also creates contradictions in the content.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:06, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
I believe the references to "Chatzopoulos" and "Chatzopoulos, 1997" are in regard to the following work:
If so, then the mention of "Chatzopoulos" in the article, and the cites of "Chatzopoulos, 1997", need to be fixed. And the corresponding entry in the "Sources" section should be modified to read as given above. Paul August ☎ 12:42, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
I'm not convinced. Greek academics sometimes have various ways of transliterating their names. Isn't "Ch" more usual for Romanization of χ? GPinkerton ( talk) 03:10, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
To reply in this [ [24]] (posted in a wrong talkpage). There is an unexplained attempt to consider Georgiev as FRINGE. Nevertheless his conclusion about the Proto-Greek area is in agreement with Hammond and Crossland about the location of the Proto-Greek area. I assume that even wp:TERTIARY summaries should be targeted as FRINGE [ [25]] according to this (yet unexplained) view. Alexikoua ( talk) 07:48, 17 August 2020 (UTC) 'NW Greece' is a wide term, so I'm leaving only that part that directly refers to Molossis/Molossians, in terms of phonetics. Alexikoua ( talk) 08:08, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help)) rightfully mentions MH because it is in the era c.2000-1550 BC that IE appeared in the Balkans. No IE language existed in the Balkans in "4000-3000" BCE. --
Maleschreiber (
talk) 09:17, 17 August 2020 (UTC)"settling in the vicinity of Servia in western Macedonia during the late Neolithic period and already speaking Ur-Greek he suggests that the founders of Mycenaea were of Kurgan origin". Alexikoua ( talk) 09:47, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
"Most scholars take an in-between position, believing that Greek or proto-Greek was certainly spoken in the Aegean area between 2000 and 1500 BC and probably earlier, though not before 2500 BCSo, it's another SYNTH/OR to say that Greek was in the Aegean in 2500 BCE. A good oveview of modern bibliography is Drews (1994), The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East, Princeton University Press. He writes (p.14):
Today the debate about "the coming of the Greeks" has become quite lively. The conventional date, as we have seen, has been the interface between Early and Middle Helladic, ca. 1900 BC, and some surveys still present this date without qualification or defense. But specialists have for some time been canvassing other possibilities. The several dates currently proposed for this event are, of course, all archaeologically based. The disruptions or "breaks" in the material record are here all-important, since the arrival of the Greeks is assumed to correspond to one of these breaks. All along, those few scholars who did not agree that the arrival of the Greeks occurred at the break between Early and Middle Helladic (c. 1900 BC) traditionally located it at the breaks between Middle and Late Helladic (ca. 1600 BC), or between Late Helladic IIIB and IIIC (ca. 1200 BC). And recently, a fourth possiblity has found a few strong advocates: the break between Early Helladic II and III (ca. 2100 BC). Let us briefly look at the evidence on which each of these variant proposals is based.So, sources and outdated theories that put forward WP:FRINGE ideas which - in our time - are popular only in nationalist sites are not what this article should be based on.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 22:06, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Madgearu and Gordon, The Wars of the Balkan Peninsula: Their Medieval Origins, " Of course, scientists were astonished by this theory. In the same interwar period, the Bulgarian scholar Vladimir Georgiev maintained that the Ionians and the Achaeans were Thracians, not Greeks..."
. Don't tell me, ask yourself, why do you think it is such a good idea to spend your time defending this... --
Calthinus (
talk) 15:28, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Linguist Vladimir Georgiev argues that northwestern Greece, including Molossia, was part of the proto-Greek region. This language was already formed in this area during the [[Neolithic_Greece#Late_Neolithic_(LN)_'''5300-4500_BC'''|Late Neolithic]], before the Late Bronze Age migrations. [1]. But guess what? It's still out of line with most theories about the spread of Indo-European. And also guess what? It's still multiple millennia out of scope because literally nobody claims the Molossians existed in 3000 BCE let alone 4000 BCE. How on earth are we even having this argument...? -- Calthinus ( talk) 16:15, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
The ancient Thracians had lived in this territory at least since the Early Neolithic Period.(in southeastern Bulgaria). That is around 7000-6000 BCE. Mallory, J.P. (2003). "The Homeland of the Indo-Europeans". In Blench, Roger; Spriggs, Matthew (eds.). Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations. Routledge. ISBN 1134828772. highlights why it's impossible for any IE language to have been in the Balkans in the Neolithic, Drews (1994) above gives an overview of the modern consensus which is set between 2100 BCE and 1200 BCE and Demand, Nancy (2012). The Mediterranean Context of Early Greek History. Wiley. p. 49. ISBN 1405155515. writes about the consensus:
Speakers of proto-Greek probably entered in the troubled period at the beginning of the Middle Bronze Age, traditionally held to have been the occasion for the arrival of Greek speakers-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 06:54, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
"Estimates as to the time of arrival (i.e in Aegean, not nw Greece) vary widely, from the early Neolithic to the end of the Bronze Age.".Georgiev meets fully wp:RS, he's a very specialized on Balkan linguistics. The academic community cites him frequently, I suggest you can do the same. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:07, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
References
The Proto Greek Region... Μολοσσία , Μολοττία , a derivative of the tribal name Μολοσσοί , and the personal name Μολοσσός ,
user:Khirurg how isn't this important piece of cultural shift toward hellenization of Epirus part of the culture? RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 16:06, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
The content that was introduced was somewhat problematic. I went ahead and reinstated Plutarch's account using a secondary source; albeit with a more accurate summary, and under a more appropriate section. I hope this resolves the dispute. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 04:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
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Quoting from Britannica (2006 edition):
"After the Mycenaean civilization declined, Epirus was the launching area of the Dorian invasions (1100–1000 BC) of Greece. The region's original inhabitants were driven southward by the Dorians, and out of the ensuing migrations three main clusters of Greek-speaking tribes emerged in Epirus: the Thesproti of southwestern Epirus, the Molossi of central Epirus, and the Chaones of northwestern Epirus. They lived in clusters of small villages, in contrast to most other Greeks, who lived in or around city-states." ...continues... "In the 5th century Epirus was still on the periphery of the Greek world. To the 5th-century historian Thucydides, the Epirotes were “barbarians.” The only Epirotes regarded as Greek were the Aeacidae, who were members of the Molossian royal house and claimed descent from Achilles"
According to the odds, the Molossians were Greek-speaking peoples who got gradually semi-barbarized and then re-Hellenized during the Hellenistic period. By any interpretation, they were originally a Greek (i.e. Greek-speaking) tribal people, most likely of Dorian blood. Miskin 02:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I feel quite funny to have to point the obvious to simple-minded people but what the hell, here goes.
A couple of points on how this encyclopedia works:
Arguing with you has in several occasions proved to be a case of mental masturbation, which is why I'm not affected by your petty attempts of delivering insult. If I'm a nationalist, then you're not so different from the simple-minded Macedonian Slav and Albanian editors whose only purpose is to put down other peoples in order to feel better about their pathetic existence. Your constant anthellenic attitude on historical articles has proven this. Miskin 16:52, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
This is a case where Wikipedia:Neutral point of view applies, because — despite Britannica and probably many other sources — the evidence is sparse and differing opinions among the scholars do not represent an insignificant minority. See Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial. Jimmy Wales: "The NPOV policy is absolute and non-negotiable." Alexander 007 19:48, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
How were my edits a "parrot" to Britannica? Britannica takes for granted that all Epirotes were originally Greek-speaking peoples, however I specifically included that this is not factual. What bothers you is the label of "Greek" when applied to the origin of various ancient peoples for which an alternative theory exists. You completely ignore the fact that a source like Britannica is supposed to reflect the most widely accepted opinion. What bothers me in turn in this biased attitude of yours. Miskin 22:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Don't try to intimidate me be parroting Jimmy Wales. I know what NPOV policy is about. Britannica is actually presented by WP:POLICY as an example of a neutral source ("Tertiary sources like reputable encyclopedias, such as the Encyclopædia Britannica" [3]). I wouldn't even take it that far, fallacies and biased content can be found everywhere, nevertheless, none of it is present on the specific article. Miskin 22:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
A different article states: "Toward the end of the Mycenaean period the Thessali entered the fertile plain from Thesprotía in southern Epirus and imposed an aristocratic rule on the older inhabitants. " [4] (on the origin of the Thessalians. Are all the ancient greek related articles biased and badly informed or maybe it's time for you to start accepting facts? Miskin 22:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I am satisfied with your latest revision of the lead sentence; it is accurate. I accept facts after I have reviewed the evidence, not because Britannica says this or that. Alexander 007 22:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I respect both of you and I really wish you could relax a bit here :) talk to +MATIA 22:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Any comment on Herodotus and the origin of some of the Athenians? talk to +MATIA 22:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that after mentioning the 12 cities of the Ionian League, he has a small comment about the ten "tribes" and relates some of them with Molossians (or a mythical descendant of Molossus). talk to +MATIA 23:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Hi Guys, another more direct quotation of Herodotus of the Molossians as Hellenes are the paragraphs [6.126-7]:
126. Then in the next generation after this, Cleisthenes the despot of Sikyon exalted the family, so that it became of much more note among the Hellenes than it had been formerly. For Cleisthenes the son of Arisonymos, the son of Myron, the son of Andreas, had a daughter whose name was Agariste; and as to her he formed a desire to find out the best man of all the Hellenes and to assign her to him in marriage. So when the Olympic games were being held and Cleisthenes was victor in them with a four- horse chariot, he caused a proclamation to be made, that whosoever of the Hellenes thought himself worthy to be the son-in-law of Cleisthenes should come on the sixtieth day, or before that if he would, to Sikyon; for Cleisthenes intended to conclude the marriage within a year, reckoning from the sixtieth day. Then all those of the Hellenes who had pride either in themselves or in their high descent, came as wooers, and for them Cleisthenes had a running- course and a wrestling-place made and kept them expressly for their use.
127. From Italy came Smindyrides the son of Hippocrates of Sybaris, who of all men on earth reached the highest point of luxury (now Sybaris at this time was in the height of its prosperity), and Damasos of Siris, the son of that Amyris who was called the Wise; these came from Italy: from the Ionian gulf came Amphimnestos the son of Epistrophos of Epidamnos, this man from the Ionian gulf: from Aitolia came Males, the brother of that Titormos who surpassed all the Hellenes in strength and who fled from the presence of men to the furthest extremities of the Aitolian land: from Peloponnesus, Leokedes the son of Pheidon the despot of the Argives, that Pheidon who established for the Peloponnesians the measures which they use, and who went beyond all other Hellenes in wanton insolence, since he removed from their place the presidents of the games appointed by the Eleians and himself presided over the games at Olympia,--his son, I say, and Amiantos the son of Lycurgos an Arcadian from Trapezus, and Laphanes an Azanian from the city of Paios, son of that Euphorion who (according to the story told in Arcadia) received the Dioscuroi as guests in his house and from thenceforth was wont to entertain all men who came, and Onomastos the son of Agaios of Elis; these, I say, came from Peloponnesus itself: from Athens came Megacles the son of that Alcmaion who went to Crœsus, and besides him Hippocleides the son of Tisander, one who surpassed the other Athenians in wealth and in comeliness of form: from Eretria, which at that time was flourishing, came Lysanias, he alone from Eubœa: from Thessalia came Diactorides of Crannon, one of the family of the Scopadai: and from the Molossians, Alcon.
If some of the elder members want to put it in the main page plase do ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.48.23.92 ( talk) 02:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Quote: "Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at different times during the Middle Bronze Age, with one group, the "northwest" Greeks, developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes."
E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 62
Quote: "We have seen that the "Makedones" or "highlanders" of mountainous western Macedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwest Greece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from which emerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established their regional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may have been related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become the historical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotes or Molossians. If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek, like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians, we would be on much firmer ground in this hypothesis." E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 78
Quote:
"When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the
central Macedonian plain and its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, and perhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled
plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks of Thessaly. The western mountains were peopled by the Molossians (the western Greeks of Epirus), tribes of non-Argead Macedonians, and other populations."
E.N.Borza "In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon" (revised edition, 1992), page 98
Quote:
"As subjects of the king the Upper Macedonians were henceforth on the same footing as the original Macedonians, in that they could qualify for
service in the King's Forces and thereby obtain the elite citizenship. At one bound the territory, the population and wealth of the kingdom were
doubled. Moreover since the great majority of the new subjects were speakers of the West Greek dialect, the enlarged army was Greek-speaking throughout."
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Gerald Duckword & Ltd, London, 1994
Quote: "Certainly the Thracians and the Illyrians were non-Greek speakers, but in the northwest, the peoples of Molossis {Epirot province}, Orestis and Lynkestis spoke West Greek. It is also accepted that the Macedonians spoke a dialect of Greek and although they absorbed other groups into their territory, they were essentially Greeks." Robert Morkot, "The Penguin Historical Atlas of Ancient Greece", Penguin Publ., 1996
EPIRUS ("Hpeiros", Mainland)
North-west area of Greece, from Acroceraunian point to Nicopolis, with harbours at Buthrotum and Glycys Limen (at Acheron's mouth); bordered on south by gulf of Ambracia, and on east by Pindus range with pass via Metsovo to Thessaly.
Three limestone ranges parallel to the coast and the Pindus range enclose narrow valleys and plateaux with good pasture and extensive woods; alluvial plains were formed near Buthrotum, Glycys Limen, and Ambracia.
Epirus had a humid climate and cold winters. In terrain and in history it resembled Upper Macedonia. Known in the 'Iliad' only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially.
Theopompus knew fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Chaones held the plain of Buthrotum, the Thesproti the plain of Acheron, and the Molossi the plain of Dodona, which forms the highland centre of Epirus with an outlet southwards to Ambracia.
A strong Molossian state, which included some Thesprotian tribes, existed in the reign of Neoptolemos c.370-368 ("Arx.Ef".1956, 1ff). The unification of Epirus in a symmachy led by the Molossian king was finally achieved by Alexander, brother-in-law of Philip II of Macedon. His conquests in southern Italy and his alliance with Rome showed the potentialities of the Epirote Confederacy, but he was killed in 330 BC.
Dynastic troubles weakened the Molossian state, until Pyrrhus removed his fellow king and embarked on his adventurous career.
The most lasting of his achievements were the conquest of southern Illyria, the development of Ambracia as his capital, and the building of fortifications and theaters, especially the large one at Dodona.
His successors suffered from wars with Aetolia, Macedon, and Illyria, until in c.232 BC the Molossian monarchy fell.
An Epirote League with a federal citizenship was then created, and the meetings of its council were held probably by rotation at Dodona or Passaron in Molossis, at Gitana in Thesprotis, and at Phoenice in Chaonia.
It was soon involved in the wars between Rome and Macedon, and it split apart when the Molossian state alone supported Macedon and was sacked by the Romans in 167 BC, when 150,000 captives were deported.
Central Epirus never recovered; but northern Epirus prospered during the late republic, and Augustus celebrated his victory at Actium by founding a Roman colony at Nicopolis.
Under the empire a coastal road and a road through the interior were built from north to south, and Buthrotum was a Roman colony.
Ancient remains testify to the great prosperity of Epirus in Hellenistic times. N.G.L.Hammond, "Oxford Classical Dictionary," 3rd ed. (1996), pp.546,547
The Molossians were the strongest and, decisive for Macedonia, most easterly of the three most important Epeirot tribes, which, like Macedonia but unlike the Thesprotians and the Chaonians, still retained their monarchy. They were Greeks, spoke a similar dialect to that of Macedonia, suffered just as much from the depredations of the Illyrians and were in principle the natural partners of the Macedonian king who wished to tackle the Illyrian problem at its roots." Malcolm Errington, "A History of Macedonia", California University Press, 1990.
Quote:
The West Greek dialect group denotes the dialects spoken in: (i) the
northwest Greek regions of Epeiros, Akarnania, Pthiotid Akhaia....
Johnathan M. Hall, "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity", Cambridge
University Press, 1997
Quote: Alexander was King Philip's eldest legitimate child. His mother, Olympias,came from the ruling clan of the northwestern Greek region of Epirus.
David Sacks, "A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World", Oxford, 1995
Quote: Epirus was a land of milk and animal products...The social unit was a small tribe, consisting of several nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, and these tribes, of which more than seventy names are known, coalesced into large tribal coalitions, three in number: Thesprotians, Molossians and Chaonians...We know from the discovery of inscriptions that these tribes were speaking the Greek language (in a West-Greek dialect).
NGL Hammond, "Philip of Macedon", Duckworth, London, 1994
the Satyres by Juvenal
Quote: The molossians were the most powerfull people of Epirus, whose kings had extended their dominion over the whole country. They traced their descent back to Pyrrhus, son of Acchilles.. Page 225
"The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew
Quote: That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was nowhere suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking; Quote: Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking Page 284
"The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume 6, the Fourth Century BC" by D M Lewis, Martin Ostwald, Simon Hornblower, John Boardman
Quote: however, in central Epirus the only fortified places were in the plain of Ioannina, the centre of the Molossian state. Thus the North-west Greek-speaking tribes were at a half-way stage economically and politically, retaining the vigour of a tribal society and reaching out in a typically Greek manner towards a larger political organization. Quote: In 322 B.C when Antipater banished banished the anti-Macedonian leaders of the Greek states to live 'beyond the Ceraunian Mountains' (plut. Phoc. 29.3) he regarded Epirus as an integral part of the Greek-speaking mainland. Page 443
Quote: The chaones as we will see were a group of Greek-speaking tribes, and the Dexari, or as they were called later the Dassarete, were the most northernly member of the group. Page 423
A New Classical Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography, Mythology and Geography" by William Smith
Quote: Molossi (Μολοσσοί), a people in Epirus, who inhabited a narrow slip of country, called after them Molossia (Μολοσσία) or Molossis, which extended from the Aous, along the western bank of the Arachthus, as far as the Ambracian Gulf. The Molossi were Greek people, who claimed descent from Molossus, the son of Pyrrhus (Neoptolemus) and Andromache, and are said to have emigrated from Thessaly into Epirus, under the guidance of Pyrrhus himself. In their new abodes they intermingled with the original inhabitants of the land and with the neighbouring illyrian tribes of which they were regarded by the other Greeks as half barbarians. They were, however, by far the most powerful people in Epirus, and their kings gradually extended their dominion over the whole of the country. The first of their kings, who took the title of King of Epirus, was Alexander, who perished in Italy B.C. 326. The ancient capital of the Molossi was Pasaron,but Ambracia afterward became their chief town, and the residence of their kings. The Molossian hounds were celebrated in antiquity, and were much prized for hunting.
That they [Dorians] were related to the North-West Dialects (of Phocis, Locris, Aetolia, Acarnania and Epirus) was not perceived clearly by the ancients History of the Language Sciences: I. Approaches to Gender II. Manifestations By Sylvain Auroux, page 439
Quote:
the western greek people (with affinities to the Epirotic tribes) in Orestis, Lyncus, and parts of Pelagonia;
"In the shadow of Olympus.." By Eugene Borza, page 74
Quote:
Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, was himself simply a military adventurer. He was none the less a soldier of fortune that he traced back his pedigree to Aeacus and Achilles
Quote:
He [Pyrrhus] has been compared to Alexander of Macedonia; and certainly the idea of founding a Hellenic empire of the west--which would have had as its core Epirus, Magna Graecia, and Sicily, would have commanded both the Italian seas, and would have reduced Rome and Carthage to the rank of barbarian peoples bordering on the Hellenistic state-system,like the Celts and the Indians--was analogous in greatness and boldness to the idea which led the Macedonian king over the Hellespont.
Quote: he was the first Greek that met the Romans in battle. With him began those direct relations between Rome and Hellas, on which the whole subsequent development of ancient, and an essential part of modern, civilization are based. Quote: this struggle between Rome and Hellenism was first fought out in the battles between Pyrrhus and the Roman generals; Quote: But while the Greeks were beaten in the battlefield as well as in the senate-hall, their superiority was none the less decided on every other field of rivalry than that of politics; and these very struggles already betokened that the victory of Rome over the Hellenes would be different from her victories over Gauls and Phoenicians, and that the charm of Aphrodite only begins to work when the lance is broken and the helmet and shield are laid aside. Theodor Mommsen History of Rome, From the Abolition of the Monarchy in Rome to the Union of Italy, The Historical Position Of Pyrrhus
Quote:
That the molossians, who were immediately adjacent to the Dodonaeans in the time of Hecataeus but engulfed them soon afterwards, spoke Illyrian or another barbaric tongue was NOWHERE suggested, although Aeschylus and Pindar wrote of Molossian lands. That they in fact spoke greek was implied by Herodotus' inclusion of Molossi among the greek colonists of Asia minor, but became demonstranable only when D. Evangelides published two long inscriptions of the Molossian State, set up p. 369 B.C at Dodona, in Greek and with Greek names, Greek patronymies and Greek tribal names such as Celaethi, Omphales, Tripolitae, Triphylae, etc. As the Molossian cluster of tribes in the time of Hecataeus included the Orestae, Pelagones, Lyncestae, Tymphaei and Elimeotae,as we have argued above, we may be confindent that they too were Greek-speaking;
Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking. "The Cambridge Ancient History - The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3" by P Mack Crew ,page 284.
Quote:
The Epirotes, who may fairly be considered as Greeks by blood, long maintained a rugged independence under native chiefs, who were little more than leaders in war.
A Manual of Greek Antiquities
Book by Percy Gardner, Frank Byron Jevons; Charles Scribner's Sons, 1895, page 8
Why there was a need to change the "Greek" to "Greek speaker"? All the sources use the language of the Mollosians as an evidence of their origin. (I am not aware of any none Greek but Greek speaking population in archaic Greece.) Also the above sources are enough about the origin of the Epirotans in general. Seleukosa ( talk) 10:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
To quote Brill's New Pauly: Ancient authors saw the inhabitants of E[pirus] as bárbaroi (βάρβαροι, Thuc. 1,47,3; Scymn. 444f.; Str. 7,7,1) and as related to the Macedonians (Str. 7,7,8). This is disingenuous nationalism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
The map in this article uses blue to signify 'Thracian' tribes, and includes the Paeonians as such. Hammond in his 'Macedonian State' on page 40 makes it clear that the Paeonians had their own language and customs, while the Thracians were dominant east of Paeonia. I haven't edited the map out as it's the best available for the moment and the article is dealing more with the west than the east anyways, but it might be prudent to keep an eye out for something more accurate. Fimbria ( talk) 11:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I am placing the Albania TF tag and I hope no one will revert me. Since there is a lot of archaeological research in Albania about the Molossians (they lived in territories where Greeks and Albanians have coexisted, such as in the Gjin Bue Shpata state, or in the Pashalik of Janina state, or even now in some areas linked to the existence of Molossians. I think it's important to include this under the Albania TF. -- sulmues ( talk) 14:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I revert this edit which was made by an anonymous user identified as vandalism; the anonymous user changed the word "ancient Greek" with the word "Illyrian" contrary to the sources that state the opposite. The same user has vandalised the page in the same way many times before, see article's history. The Cat and the Owl ( talk) 19:51, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I've been moving through the article making minor grammatical and sentence-level changes. I am not an expert, or even well acquainted with the topic. I was considering removing the direct quote, the "inscription," mentioned in the section on "Molossian royalty." To me the quote is nearly incomprehensible, and I think it adds very little. However, I thought I would check to see if the editor who first added the quote could clarify it a little if he/she thought it appropriate. I realize that we cannot simply add punctuation or change the syntax of a direct quote; perhaps a summary of the contents would be more beneficial in this situation than a direct quote.
The people mentioned in the inscription (besides Alexander) are not mentioned elsewhere in the article. The article's preceding explanation illuminates the terms in the first part of the quote (assuming the reader groups the words correctly without the aid of punctuation), but the reader would probably have no understanding of the last bit about the descent line of Kreston. --
MattMauler (
talk) 14:10, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
I read that Molessians were greek?! What? Molossians were an Illyrian tribe. I have studied it a lot in Germany and what I am reading here is just wrong. I made some changes from greek to Illyrians.
I'm sorry but you need to explain your point and support it with wp:rs. As I can see the current version is well sourced, thus you need to provide strong arguments against a long established consensus. Alexikoua ( talk) 19:18, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
How about an etymolgy for the word "Molossian". ... > Molossós; "from Ancient Greek μολοσσός (molossós), properly "belonging to the Molossians", a people in the eastern part of Epirus." ... that it "belongs to the Molossians" is crystal clear. But simply not clear enough. What is the meaning of "Molossian"? LAGTON ( talk) 14:59, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
It would be UNDUE to term their origin as a "disputed" since the works of Nilsson (1951) and Meyer (1893) who supported an Illyrian origin are severely outdated. Not to mention they had not access to archaeological material unearthed post-1950s. Alexikoua ( talk) 15:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Nonetheless such views, which largely rely on subjective ancient testimonies are not supported by the earliest (and not only) epigraphic texts.. Nilsson is from...1909 for crying out loud. Case closed. Khirurg ( talk) 16:50, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Based on linguistic arguments, earlier historians of the standing Beloch, Wilamowitz, and Hammond were in favor of a Hellenic origin, whereas equally influential scholars including Nilsson and Meyer held that the Epirotes were of Illyrians stock. (...) Malkin, following Hammond, goes on to shows that Greek was spoken, at least from the 5th century BC on, by the Molossians, but is careful to note that the Molossians may have had Greek as a cultural language without actually being Greek.- so no, you're not removing Nilsson in any way, shape or form. If modern bibliography chooses to discuss his later work in comparison to that of Hammond, wikipedia will do so too.
Irad Malkin of Tel Aviv University followed Hammond and argued the Epirotes were Greek speakers, but left open the possibility that Greek might have been the prestige language which was spoken at least from the 5th century BC without the Molossians themselves necessarily being Greeks.That is not what the source says - so when I correct that I expect to not see any more revert-warring (you too have 5-6 reverts together in the past 24 hours) and I also expect from now on a closer reading of bibliography in order to not mess up references about different eras and make correction even more difficult afterwards.
The presentation of the inscriptions ends with a summary, including a comparative table of letter types and a table with a comprehensive presentation of the dating of the inscriptions. M. suggests that some of the most important inscriptions of Dodona date to the first half of the third and not to the fourth century B.C.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:05, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
"On top of this, one must also take into account the fact that while the earlierst texts normally come from Corinthian colonies like Ambracia or from Dodona, which were certainly not representative sites of the whole of Epirus; on the other hand, most epigraphic texts date to the late Classical/Hellenistic period...-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:51, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
some early oracular tablets from Dodona, may be related to Epirus[5]. Besides scholars know to differentiate the various inscriptions. If they were Illyrians, Illyrian onomastics dating from the Archaic period would have surely been found. Instead, there is no such evidence. Dodona was through and through a Greek sanctuary, and in fact considered the oldest Greek oracle. And it lay smack in the middle of Epirus. Khirurg ( talk) 03:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
due to Proxenos, who flattered the royal house with an unsurpassed and excessive abuse of mythology, and that apart from the native names of Tharyps and Arrybas "all other male members of the house have names take from the Trojan myth (...) This plundering of mythical names is contrary to the principles of Greek nomenclature in the classical age in which the heroic names were not given to living men. The whole story shows the overdone eagerness of a barbarian house to appear as heroic Greeks.So, what this Proxenos helped the Molossians do, was a very un-Greek thing (to the eyes of someone from Athens or Sparta). Actually, most of the people named Neoptolemos (after the Trojan figure) appear in the periphery of ancient Greece: from Neoptolemus I of Epirus to this Persian-Pontic figure, Neoptolemus (Pontic general). It's an evolution of Greekness, but it's not one single identity which maintained itself through ages. It became more inclusive. Just like, for example, the modern American identity is changing and becoming more inclusive. That is my "endgame": not to show that they were Illyrians or non-Greek per se, but to show the evolution of identity.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 02:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
I'm sure though that if the Illyrians lived in the periphery...Now how's that for original research. And the Illyrians did have many contacts with Greeks from the coastal colonies. Many became Hellenized, but not in the way you claim the Molossians did. And you know this. Khirurg ( talk) 03:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
due to Proxenos, who flattered the royal house with an unsurpassed and excessive abuse of mythology, and that apart from the native names of Tharyps and Arrybas "all other male members of the house have names take from the Trojan myth (...) This plundering of mythical names is contrary to the principles of Greek nomenclature in the classical age in which the heroic names were not given to living men. The whole story shows the overdone eagerness of a barbarian house to appear as heroic Greeks.and then you shifted the question towards "But why didn't the Illyrians do the same". That is an whataboutism which is not related at all to the first question. By this point, trying to argue about why the Molossians did so (we've got an answer) by asking "why didn't the Illyrians do" is irrelevant in relation to the original question. It's starting to get late here (my "here" at least), so we can continue tomorrow with papers from JSTOR.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 04:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
due to Proxenos, who flattered the royal house with an unsurpassed and excessive abuse of mythology, and that apart from the native names of Tharyps and Arrybas "all other male members of the house have names take from the Trojan myth (...) This plundering of mythical names is contrary to the principles of Greek nomenclature in the classical age in which the heroic names were not given to living men. The whole story shows the overdone eagerness of a barbarian house to appear as heroic Greeks.. If you want to construct your personal narratives, it's ok - but it's not something that can work in the context of wikipedia and historiography. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 01:23, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Should the lead include the following sentence about the subject of their historical origins:
Their ultimate origin is the subject of debate as various theories which place them as either ancient
Greeks,
Illyrians or semi-Hellenized tribes which underwent a process of
hellenization have been argued
. More about the issue, can be found in the article's bibliography, discussions already had and this discussion as it evolves. --
Maleschreiber (
talk) 23:39, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
Oppose at outdated and Balkan nationalist POV-pushing, per my reasoning above
[6] and here. There is no such thing as "ultimate origin". What is the "ultimate origin" of any ethnic group? How many similar articles discuss the "ultimate origin" of this or that ethnic group in the lede? Does the article on
Ilyrians do so? on
Thracians? Nope. What is the "ultimate ethnic origin" of the Greeks? Of the Albanians? There is no such thing as "ultimate origin" of any ethnic group. This also carries 20th century blood-and-soil connotations, and has no place in a modern encyclopedia. The proposed sentence also relies on heavily outdated scholarship. Only sources from the 19th century to the early 20th century (e.g. Nilsson 1909, Meyer 1878) argue for any "Illyrian origin", while "semi-Hellenized" is based on a single source from 1983. On the other hand, modern scholarship is increasingly of the view that the Molossians and other Epirote tribes were Greek-speaking, as shown in this top notch source from 2018
[7], especially page 221-222
[8]. In particular I quote In spite of some ancient testimonies, the epigraphic evidence from the late Archaic period (6th-5th century BC) indicates that population of Epirus proper spoke a dialectical variety akin to the so-called North-West (NW) Doric, (or North-West Greek).
Also on p. 224
[9]: There is an overall consensus nowadays that the Greek-speaking populations of Epirus...spoke a North West Doric variety akin to numerous populations of Central and Western Greece
. Regarding the Illyrians:
[10] In fact, contact with non-Greek populations (Illyrians) in the northern part of Epirus...
., and on p. 241
[11]: The northern parts of Epirus, e.g. Chaonia, bordered on S. Illyrian territory
. In other words, the source makes it clear that Illyrians were neighbors and outsiders, and not Epirotes. This is a top notch academic source from 2018 that specializes on the subject and provides a review of the literature; it is as good a source as we could hope for. This is also the view of not just the linguistic community, but also the historical community, in particular Johannes Engels (2010) in the Oxford Companion to Macedonia, p. 83
[12]: Old genealogical links...strongly connected Epirus to the rest of Greece...and precluded any serious debate about the Greekness of the Epirotans. Epirotic language was regarded a primitive North-Western Greek dialect, but there was no discussion that it was basically Greek. Epirotans...lived an archaic way of life with old fashioned and some crude customs...Nevertheless there was never a sharp discussion of their Greekness.
and a vast body of historical literature, as shown here:
[13]. This is in stark contrast to sources such as Nilsson and Meyer, from over 100 years ago. This whole thing also has Balkan nationalist overtones, whereby Albanian nationalists try to claim an "Illyrian origin" so as to be able to claim the "rightful ownership" of the Molossians (since according to their logic they are the direct descendants of the Illyrians), or failing that, at least try to question the Greekness of the Molossians so as to "challenge" the Greek claim to Epirus (in their heads, at least). Lastly, regarding
WP:MOSLEAD, there is no "Origin" section in the article (and rightly so), but instead a culture section, which mainly discusses language and religion. Language and religion could be added to the lede, but the "origin" question is not lede material.
Khirurg (
talk) 00:01, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Support (personal comment after RfC question) Modern bibliography does consider it a subject of debate. Most of the epigraphic evidence has already existed for a long time - unfortunately little has been produced in terms of excavations in the last 40 years. Douzougli-Papadopoulos (2010):
write Based on linguistic arguments, earlier historians of the standing Beloch, Wilamowitz, and Hammond were in favor of a Hellenic origin, whereas equally influential scholars including Nilsson and Meyer held that the Epirotes were of Illyrians stock. (...) Malkin, following Hammond, goes on to shows that Greek was spoken, at least from the 5th century BC on, by the Molossians, but is careful to note that the Molossians may have had Greek as a cultural language without actually being Greek.
Filos (2018) discusses epigraphic evidence (inscriptions) in a later era while talking generally about Epirus (the first inscriptions are from Corintian colonies, not Epirote tribes in general or the Molossians in particular), thus they are not about the Epirote tribes "On top of this, one must also take into account the fact that while the earlierst texts normally come from Corinthian colonies like Ambracia or from Dodona, which were certainly not representative sites of the whole of Epirus; on the other hand, most epigraphic texts date to the late Classical/Hellenistic period...
.
Davies (2002) who has presented the last phase of epigraphic evidence writes that The ethnic mix of the region is being studied, will all appropriate reserve, both via the personal names attested epigraphically and via the mapping of the movements of peoples and crystallization of polities with the southern Balkan zone
and since 2014 epigraphic evidence has been redated in Meyer (2014) The Inscriptions of Dodona and a New History of Molossia. Stuttgart:Franz Steiner,2013. ISBN:978-3-515-10311-4. From Nakas (2014)
review: The presentation of the inscriptions ends with a summary, including a comparative table of letter types and a table with a comprehensive presentation of the dating of the inscriptions. M. suggests that some of the most important inscriptions of Dodona date to the first half of the third and not to the fourth century B.C.
(thus the chronological framework of epigraphic evidence is narrower) Winnifrith (1983) is a contemporary of the era of most archaeological material and considers these tribes
semi-hellenized. All this creates a very complex picture about a tribe that was enslaved by the Romans and left no other trace after 167 BC. The proposed sentence tries in terms of
WP:MOSLEAD to include some of that discussion - large part of which is in the body of the article - in the lead section. It's one sentence and doesn't address the issue with any modern bias IMO, nor does it attempt to deal with the subject in terms of a cohesive, monolingual, monoethnic identity - it rather tries to show the fluidity of identity in the ancient world.
cultural passport as Greeks.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 16:05, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Oppose as irrelevant and imprecise, and as per arguments of Khirurg. GPinkerton ( talk) 01:11, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Support per reasons outlined by Maleschreiber Alltan ( talk) 01:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. The sources backing "semi-hellenized" and/or "Illyrian" theories rely not only on extremely outdated scholarhip of the 20th Century, which does not serve the scope of Wikipedia which is to provide updated information, but also are contradicted by the far more recent discoveries about that group. I can't help it but I am very disturbed that the same editor whose contributions log show that he is pursuing the classic Albanian nationalist POV-pushing, is expanding his edits even on articles about historical groups that used to live in the region of Epirus, millenias ago. For those Wikipedians who are not familiar with the Albanian politics: there is a nationalist fever in the country's politics about a "rightful ownership" of Epirus and its ancient tribes - this is due to Albania's incapable politicians using the nationalist card as a means of distracting the people away from their own governorship shortcomings in dealing with the chronic but pressing issues plaguing Albania today, such as stragnant economy, political and judicial corruption, high poverty and unemployment, (these problems were reported by the Balkan Investigative Reporting Network (BIRN)) by presenting a "glorious ancient past" to their voters. Wikipedia should stay clear from such POV-pushing attempts and say a big NO to RfCs selectively picking from outdated sources just to promote a certain political narrative. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 02:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Comment. Per Khirurg's rationale, most support from sources goes to ancient Greece, so I would suggest highlighting that of the three origins, Greeks are the most likely. Instead of "Their ultimate origin is the subject of debate as various theories which place them as either ancient Greeks, Illyrians or semi-Hellenized tribes which underwent a process of hellenization have been argued," it should be "Their ultimate origin is probably ancient Greek [1], but some historians argue that they arose from Illyrians [2] or semi-Hellenized tribes [3] which underwent a process of hellenization. I included the citations within the sentence to avoid weasel words. BlacknoseDace( say something. I'm lonely!) [I'm not a reference!] 11:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
References
The Molossians were an ancient tribe which inhabited the region of Epirus on the periphery of Archaic and Classical Greece, and later became an important state during the Hellenistic area. Together with the Chaonians in the north and the Thesprotians in the south, they formed the main tribal groupings of northwestern Greece. Etc.This way you avoid telling whether they were "Greek" from the start. I also suggest calling them "Epirote" instead of Greek. The same wording could be used in all the articles related to Epirus before the Hellenistic era. T8612 (talk) 11:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Since Thucydides has already reported that though the citizens of Amphilochian Argos had brought in and Hellenized some of the neighbouring Amprakiotai, the other Amphilochoi are barbarians’ (2. 68. 5), we are meant to be left in no doubt that the Greek–barbarian boundary is real and close: the contrast with Aetolia, whose inhabitants Thucydides cannot quite bring himself to describe as barbarians,should tell us something about contemporary Athenian perceptions. Cf. also Hdt. 8. 47, clearly reflecting a sense that Thesprotia, the Acheron river, and Amprakia formed a cultural boundary; Eur. Phoen. 138 (Tydeus the Aetolian is meixobarbaros half-barbarian in his weaponry); and [Skylax] 33 (Thenceforward sc. from Ambrakia] Greece begins to be continuous as far as the Peneius river)-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 05:08, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
There is an overall consensus nowadays that the Greek-speaking population of Epirus...spoke a NorthWest Doric variety akin to that of the numerous neighboring populations of Central and Western Greece (Aetolia, Acarnania, Locris, Phocis, Doris...). This is the most recent, and most specialized source on the topic. Full stop. Khirurg ( talk) 00:02, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
In fact it was not Greek needs, ambitions or curiosity which eventually eliminated the barriers so much as a calculated effort by the ruling dynasty of one Epeirote people, the Molossoi, to manoeuvre themselves into a position of predominance within the region. (..) One truck was cultural - to present themselves as Greek (with a Trojan War ancestry) to take from Greek culture what could be turned to political use, and to manipulate the Greek political process in their own interest as best they could.There's much more nuance to this subject and few certainties in my opinion. That's all I'm trying to highlight and I'm not in favor of essentialist narratives. Before I started working on this article, it actually claimed as real history that a fictional genealogy constructed for political reasons by the ruling dynasty was real history. Even now there are editors who are trying to somehow keep that stuff in the article.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 22:17, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Support Considering that this is tribe from the Epirus area, information in this context would be desirable. If there are sources and similar informations, it should be in the articles about other Epirus tribes. It is a border area and certainly that tribes from Epirus area may be of different origins etc and this should be clearly emphasized. Mikola22 ( talk) 19:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Comment By the way, one thing I forgot to mention is that the main reason Albanian nationalists are so obsessed with the Molossians (trying to label them Illyrian or at least "not Greek"), is because Alexander the Great was half Molossian. Balkan politics at its finest. Khirurg ( talk) 16:56, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Comment What a comment about "Albanian nationalists" who "claim Alexander the Great" has to with this discussion remains unknown. Also, why would anyone want to "identify" him/herself with one conqueror/butcher/colonialist of the Eurasian plains like Alexander - in a long series of such figures? The fact the Balkan nationalisms sometimes compete for the same figures shows how common they are in fact. Now, allow the community to discuss the RfC without further interjections.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 20:15, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Oppose: I agree with the arguments put forward by Khirurg. Outdated information aside, with that rationale we may even suggest that they have an ultimate origin from Western Hunter-Gatherers, Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers, Early European Farmers, and Indo-Europeans, for the most part at least. An "ultimate origin" designation pertaining to them would be more appropriate and accurate, as is the case for most Balkan and European people likewise. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 07:22, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
I wonder how a "North-West Doric variety with distinct features" from Filos can be interpreted as a "NW Koine". It appears that all recent edits need to be checked and corrected since the sourced material isn't portrayed the correct way (inclusion of obsolete theories in lead etc.). Alexikoua ( talk)
..most epigraphic texts date to the late Classical/Hellenistic period i.e. to a time when the impact of a supraregional NW Doric koina was already felt, even though the Attic-Ionic koine eventually established itself in the region at a later time, i.e. in ca 1st c.AD.which you removed when you claimed that there was "source falsification" [18]. The exact edit in which you removed the term "NW koine" (koina in Doric) rm NW Koine: no such term in Greek linguistics. According to Filos (2017) at least it was exactly that. So, a self-revert is the correct path here IMO.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 23:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
References
Of course, scientists were astonished by this theory. In the same interwar period, the Bulgarian scholar Vladimir Georgiev maintained that the Ionians and the Achaeans were Thracians, not Greeks...So, yes, do be careful Alexikoua, about who you choose to rely on... -- Calthinus ( talk) 00:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
It appears you have an extremely POV taste of reliable material. Please do contort yourself into Picasso-level gymnastics to explain how that is not a personal attack, I'll take this sort of apology as a sign of affection. And I am glad you are learning something about when to not cite Georgiev. And thanks for the recommendation, but I'll pass, thankfully most people know not to seriously use Vlad the old commie who advocated theories to advance state interests -- and all of this about him is explicitly stated in available RS. As for the rest, I have good faith they will learn :). Cheers. -- Calthinus ( talk) 00:34, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Comment on original question The answer to the original question is "no". NW Doric was one variety of Greek, different variants of this variety were spoken in Epirus and in Aetolia and some other places. The NW koina was associated with the NW Doric of the Aetolian League. Which led to political connotations, because way back then, the Epirote state was not exactly buddy-buddy with the Aetolian League. However, the native Greek variety of Epirus was a dialect that was also closely related to this koina. -- Calthinus ( talk) 00:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
And it is known that only the royal households but also the tribes and cities of Epirus traced their origin or their foundation to Achaian heroes of the Mycenaean period.- that is some general information. The reason why he doesn't mention the Molossian dynasty is because the Molossian royal house didn't claim origin from any Achaean hero. It claimed dual Phthian (Thessalian via Achilles) and Trojan origin. It did so because of the political claims it gave them against their Thessalian adversaries - as is explained by Douzougli-Papadopoulos (2010) further down in the article. See, when we edit according to bibliography, logical and historical narratives emerge. When we don't do that, contradictions emerge.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 06:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
It appears that E. Meyer's suggestion on re-evaluating the date of some inscriptions is not widely accepted among book reviews. Some conclusions: "Not all historians will be convinced by the interpretations suggested in this account." "yet remain many unanswered questions." and 'further investigation is needed;. [ [21]]. If someone has access to this book it would be helpful to see Meyer's precise interpretation and which exactly inscriptions are re-dated according to her. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:42, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
The accepted view has been that this is King Alexander I (343-331 BC),1 and Meyer argues for them to be dated to the reign of King Alexander II (272-242 BC). She employs both the strong and weak criteria to show, convincingly in this reviewer’s opinion, that these inscriptions should be dated to Alexander II.. The other also embraces the newer redating. In the article, I highlighted that as
As of 2014, the previously seen as early 4th century inscriptions attributed to Neoptolemus I and his son, Alexander I of Epirus have been suggested for redating in the era of the Neoptolemus II of Epirus (about a century later) and Alexander II of Epirus respectively. This redating if accurate would have larger implications about the history of the Molossian state.Where's the controversy?-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 20:50, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
The inscription was dated, by Cabanes, in the years before 330 / 328 BC, the last years of AlexanderI.s reign. M. seems to trust in Hammond’s restoration of the name of the king (Neoptolemus, Alexander’s son) in the last line of the inscription: in fact, it is very unlikely (an unicum, in all epigraphic sources in Epirus) that the name of the king would be listed after the name of the prostatas and of the other officials (political, in common scholars’ opinion, or religious, as M. suggests).is what I've written in the article about Neoptolemus I & II. Also, don't quote bibliography in a selective manner. D'Allesandro doesn't disagree with Meyer (2014) about the dating of the inscriptions - her comments is about political interpretations that emerge from the redating - which is something that is not the in scope of my edits. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:02, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
As of 2014, the previously seen as early 4th century inscriptions attributed to Neoptolemus I and his son, Alexander I of Epirus have been suggested for redating in the era of the Neoptolemus II of Epirus (about a century later) and Alexander II of Epirus respectively. This redating if accurate would have larger implications about the history of the Molossian state.It's not an endorsement, it's not a certainty - it's how bibliography has appraised so far the redating - and we ought to report that. D'Alessandro refers to other aspects of the book (which the wiki-article doesn't discuss because we would need the book to do that), it doesn't have to do with the redating of the inscriptions which d'Alessandro also supports
The inscription was dated, by Cabanes, in the years before 330 / 328 BC, the last years of AlexanderI.s reign. M. seems to trust in Hammond’s restoration of the name of the king (Neoptolemus, Alexander’s son) in the last line of the inscription: in fact, it is very unlikely (an unicum, in all epigraphic sources in Epirus) that the name of the king would be listed after the name of the prostatas and of the other officials (political, in common scholars’ opinion, or religious, as M. suggests).I will not explain this again - read the bibliography closely.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:36, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
The irrelevant material from Chatzopoulos (1997) has been removed. It has been explained that you can't include material that doesn't refer to the subject of the article - the WP:SYNTH introduction of which also creates contradictions in the content.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:06, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
I believe the references to "Chatzopoulos" and "Chatzopoulos, 1997" are in regard to the following work:
If so, then the mention of "Chatzopoulos" in the article, and the cites of "Chatzopoulos, 1997", need to be fixed. And the corresponding entry in the "Sources" section should be modified to read as given above. Paul August ☎ 12:42, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
I'm not convinced. Greek academics sometimes have various ways of transliterating their names. Isn't "Ch" more usual for Romanization of χ? GPinkerton ( talk) 03:10, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
To reply in this [ [24]] (posted in a wrong talkpage). There is an unexplained attempt to consider Georgiev as FRINGE. Nevertheless his conclusion about the Proto-Greek area is in agreement with Hammond and Crossland about the location of the Proto-Greek area. I assume that even wp:TERTIARY summaries should be targeted as FRINGE [ [25]] according to this (yet unexplained) view. Alexikoua ( talk) 07:48, 17 August 2020 (UTC) 'NW Greece' is a wide term, so I'm leaving only that part that directly refers to Molossis/Molossians, in terms of phonetics. Alexikoua ( talk) 08:08, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help)) rightfully mentions MH because it is in the era c.2000-1550 BC that IE appeared in the Balkans. No IE language existed in the Balkans in "4000-3000" BCE. --
Maleschreiber (
talk) 09:17, 17 August 2020 (UTC)"settling in the vicinity of Servia in western Macedonia during the late Neolithic period and already speaking Ur-Greek he suggests that the founders of Mycenaea were of Kurgan origin". Alexikoua ( talk) 09:47, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
"Most scholars take an in-between position, believing that Greek or proto-Greek was certainly spoken in the Aegean area between 2000 and 1500 BC and probably earlier, though not before 2500 BCSo, it's another SYNTH/OR to say that Greek was in the Aegean in 2500 BCE. A good oveview of modern bibliography is Drews (1994), The Coming of the Greeks: Indo-European Conquests in the Aegean and the Near East, Princeton University Press. He writes (p.14):
Today the debate about "the coming of the Greeks" has become quite lively. The conventional date, as we have seen, has been the interface between Early and Middle Helladic, ca. 1900 BC, and some surveys still present this date without qualification or defense. But specialists have for some time been canvassing other possibilities. The several dates currently proposed for this event are, of course, all archaeologically based. The disruptions or "breaks" in the material record are here all-important, since the arrival of the Greeks is assumed to correspond to one of these breaks. All along, those few scholars who did not agree that the arrival of the Greeks occurred at the break between Early and Middle Helladic (c. 1900 BC) traditionally located it at the breaks between Middle and Late Helladic (ca. 1600 BC), or between Late Helladic IIIB and IIIC (ca. 1200 BC). And recently, a fourth possiblity has found a few strong advocates: the break between Early Helladic II and III (ca. 2100 BC). Let us briefly look at the evidence on which each of these variant proposals is based.So, sources and outdated theories that put forward WP:FRINGE ideas which - in our time - are popular only in nationalist sites are not what this article should be based on.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 22:06, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
Madgearu and Gordon, The Wars of the Balkan Peninsula: Their Medieval Origins, " Of course, scientists were astonished by this theory. In the same interwar period, the Bulgarian scholar Vladimir Georgiev maintained that the Ionians and the Achaeans were Thracians, not Greeks..."
. Don't tell me, ask yourself, why do you think it is such a good idea to spend your time defending this... --
Calthinus (
talk) 15:28, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Linguist Vladimir Georgiev argues that northwestern Greece, including Molossia, was part of the proto-Greek region. This language was already formed in this area during the [[Neolithic_Greece#Late_Neolithic_(LN)_'''5300-4500_BC'''|Late Neolithic]], before the Late Bronze Age migrations. [1]. But guess what? It's still out of line with most theories about the spread of Indo-European. And also guess what? It's still multiple millennia out of scope because literally nobody claims the Molossians existed in 3000 BCE let alone 4000 BCE. How on earth are we even having this argument...? -- Calthinus ( talk) 16:15, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
The ancient Thracians had lived in this territory at least since the Early Neolithic Period.(in southeastern Bulgaria). That is around 7000-6000 BCE. Mallory, J.P. (2003). "The Homeland of the Indo-Europeans". In Blench, Roger; Spriggs, Matthew (eds.). Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations. Routledge. ISBN 1134828772. highlights why it's impossible for any IE language to have been in the Balkans in the Neolithic, Drews (1994) above gives an overview of the modern consensus which is set between 2100 BCE and 1200 BCE and Demand, Nancy (2012). The Mediterranean Context of Early Greek History. Wiley. p. 49. ISBN 1405155515. writes about the consensus:
Speakers of proto-Greek probably entered in the troubled period at the beginning of the Middle Bronze Age, traditionally held to have been the occasion for the arrival of Greek speakers-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 06:54, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
"Estimates as to the time of arrival (i.e in Aegean, not nw Greece) vary widely, from the early Neolithic to the end of the Bronze Age.".Georgiev meets fully wp:RS, he's a very specialized on Balkan linguistics. The academic community cites him frequently, I suggest you can do the same. Alexikoua ( talk) 09:07, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
References
The Proto Greek Region... Μολοσσία , Μολοττία , a derivative of the tribal name Μολοσσοί , and the personal name Μολοσσός ,
user:Khirurg how isn't this important piece of cultural shift toward hellenization of Epirus part of the culture? RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 16:06, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
The content that was introduced was somewhat problematic. I went ahead and reinstated Plutarch's account using a secondary source; albeit with a more accurate summary, and under a more appropriate section. I hope this resolves the dispute. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 04:58, 16 November 2023 (UTC)