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This article was militantly merged into antitheism by User:Merzul, please discuss Talk:Antitheism#Dumped a lot of material. -- Merzul 15:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
There are 60,000 ghits for this term, it needs its own article. NBeale 09:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ttiotsw (and anyone else reading). It's great that we have another editor (from a different PoV) working on this article. I think we can make something fun and interesting and useful together. My thoughts on how this article might be structured are that we could roughly group them into:
What do people think? NBeale 13:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
NBeale 19:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there is evidence to say that this is usually used as a perjorative term (and I def wouldn't regard a citation by Mark Steyn as proof!) and in any case it's OR to say so. Lenin and Carmen Argibay and Joseph McCabe certainly don't use it in that sense. And no-one uses it to mean "people who are more outspoken than the general population on subjects which implicitly promote atheism". Can we stick to the neutral formulation in the lead-in please, and if you want to discuss the perjorative/descriptive aspect perhaps you could make a properly refed section? NBeale 19:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I see trouble ahead! POV wars here we come, unless we are extremely careful. This article could so easily become a name-calling roll-call. Admittedly it is only a stub, but the present structure is woeful - just a list of articles in newspapers in which the term has been bandied about, and those who have been described as "militant atheists", almost always pejoratively. It badly needs some historical background, some context, some explanation. I am therefore restoring something of the lead section which mentions the pejorative nature of the term. Also - what on earth is "See also anti-intellectualism" doing there? I will delete this weaselish link! Snalwibma 20:13, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Talking about "see also"... here are some:
Perhaps some of these could even be merged. -- Merzul 20:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I suggest moving it to Militant atheism (—ism rather than —ist), following Atheism, Theism, Monotheism etc. That way, it is also less likely to start looking like an exercise in name-calling! ;-P Snalwibma 20:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Renaming and merging will not so much avoid any POV pitfalls, but it would allow commentary on essentially the same phenomenon to be treated together. These terms are used interchangingly by both sides, so for example Kurtz's editorial equally applies to "militant atheism". I would prefer to see these two articles "militant atheism" and "evangelical atheism" redirect to perhaps big subsections within antitheism, where the historical context can be expanded. I mean, let's not be fooled by what people call themselves, I think the following are just as militant as other outspoken atheists:
It basically depends on what we want here, if we are going to focus very deeply on the usage of each term, then merging is inappropriate, but I don't really care about how these terms are exactly used, I think we can leave that kind of research to lexicographers, and instead focus on the more broader concept of people actively campaigning against theism. This would require some restructuring of the antitheism article, but I think it would end up a far more comprehensive entry for all three terms rather than having separate entries listing their usage. Anyway, now I'm really going off on a wikibreak! :) -- Merzul 09:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
There are 60k ghits for "Militant Atheist", 32k ghits for "Militant Atheism" and only 632 for "Atheistic Evangelism". So I think the re-titling is questionable and the merge to this scacely-used term would be quite wrong. NBeale 06:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
All the various terms used:
Each of these terms have been used in reference to Richard Dawkins. I would prefer a merge of them all into antitheism, which states "An alternative term for this stance is militant atheism but not in a violent militaristic way." On the other hand, have look at feminism... perhaps we should even have cyborg atheism. -- Merzul 13:49, 11 April 2007 (UTC) (I have taken the liberty of adding one to your list! Snalwibma)
I'd like to wait and see what hapens to these suggestions of renaming and/or merging before doing much to this article. But I am concerned about the section on "commentators". Most of this is a selection of stuff from the popular press which seems to amount to little more than name-calling by atheist and anti-atheist journalists. I don't think much of it meets the criteria for inclusion in a serious encyclopedia. So what if a London psychiatrist who has made a bit of a name for himself in the media applies the label to Richard Dawkins? So what if a Washington journalist writes a blog (and it is, as far as I can see, a blog) in which he uses the term "militant atheist" and possibly (though not very clearly) applies this label to another journalist called Polly Toynbee? Most of this stuff, IMHO, should be shown the door. If the article stays, we need a serious discussion about the use of the term in more noteworthy contexts, not a collection of "oh look, here's another one" selections from the ephemeral press! Snalwibma 12:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I have tagged this article with the wonderfully brilliant synthesis template. I think I created it specifically for this article, or perhaps it was for self-refuting idea :P But the point is again the same. We need sources who actually say things like "here are a few commentators that use the term", because it is not our job to pick such references ourselves. Once we have a few general sources on militant atheism, its history and usage, I think nobody will object to fleshing it out with a few little extras here and there, but what is disturbing is that this article doesn't have a single reference that would serve to discuss this at secondary level of analysis. -- Merzul 02:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Snalwibma, the questions you are asking are precisely what an entry on "Militant atheism" must cover and the direction you are taking the article is very good, I'm not against having this a separate article, if we can answer the questions you are asking and find the material you are looking for. Otherwise, merging doesn't mean we must lose much of the material, but to put it somewhere were such questions can be answered.
Responding to NBeale above. Policy isn't very clear on this issue, it does say "most articles should rely predominantly on secondary sources", but the guideline of neologisms is much clearer, especially this part with some added emphasis by myself:
The second reason is that articles on neologisms frequently attempt to track the emergence and use of the term as observed in communities of interest or on the internet — without attributing these claims to reliable secondary sources. If the article is not verifiable (see Reliable sources for neologisms, below) then it constitutes analysis, synthesis and original research and consequently cannot be accepted by Wikipedia. This is true even though there may be many examples of the term in use.
In any case, this is the appropriate way to do things, and it is not an infinite regress, the distinction is easy. Take the example with "new prog":
Naturally, this is a rough division, it is not always easy to say what is a primary or secondary source. Except some simple cases, e.g. The Bible is always a primary source. And we can naturally also draw from other tertiary sources like the Britannica, but we should not rely too much on creating a narrative by stringing together an original presentation based on such primary level usages of a term. -- Merzul 09:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
However we look at it, a term used by Lenin in 1923 cannot be described as a neologism! NBeale 11:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, it is hard to find, so let's post here if you do find something:
Ah, well, there might be hope for this. One source about the term's modern usage, but it is quite polemical. --
Merzul
13:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Seems to be a few sources, I would still very much prefer a merge, as I said above, people are using these terms completely interchangingly to refer to the same phenomenon, I don't see what is the purpose of keeping separate articles for essentially the same issues. This are fringe articles anyway, will remain rather stubby, as opposed to a proper treatment at one place so editor effort isn't dispersed, we don't have so much redundant information. Quality over quantity in short, and we have even section redirects so each term could be redirected to the appropriate section if need be. -- Merzul 14:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I have added an article and a book about Soviet militant atheism (neither of which I have seen). Snalwibma 14:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Who? If this person deserves to be added to the list, we at least need to know who he or she is. The wikilink leads to a disambig page with four or five people listed. Which one is the person in question? And where does he/she fit in to the story? The name is just chucked in, and it doesn't even make syntactical sense. Please (someone who knows) enlighten us and sort it out! Please don't just dump ill-formatted stuff and leave it for others to sort out. Snalwibma 21:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
(BTW - I do know who Feuerbach was, so there's no need to tell me here! Just trying to make a point... Snalwibma 06:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC))
And now someone called Charles Baker, from the 1920s but just tacked on at the end of the list, with no consideration for how (or whether) he fits in. Until NBeale comes here and discusses what is best for the article, I will start deleting all these pointless additions. Snalwibma 21:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Well it's Start Class so that's something at least. The reason I added Baker was because of the "definition" given. I was actually looking for the call by Engels that Lenin cites, but it seems no refs for that are available. I think however that we have essentially the same definition from 1923 and 2007 so we can regard it as an established term. I'd still suggest a structure that went:
This would give a logical and NPoV structure from which the article could grow organically. What do people think? NBeale 20:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, I reached consensus with myself that merging all of this into antitheism is the best way forward. They will all get their subsection to discuss whatever specific material about any particular term, but the above historic outline should be developed for all of them collectively. So there is still a lot of work, but now there is some hope for a quality article, please discuss how to integrate all this material here. Also, if this was too militant, then reverting is very easy, no need to scream at me for being bold, I think this was a genuinely good move, and it is not suppressing any information, it will all be there for everyone to see, but the history can now draw on a lot more sources. -- Merzul 15:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The present article has been developed in Antitheism but there is now a consensus that it does not belong there. We have a proper definition from Julian Baggini and plenty of examples. However I have had to remove the "generally used confrontationally" section because the ref does not support the statement at all. NBeale ( talk) 11:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
What we really need is a reputable dictionary's (or more likely, a philosophy/theology encyclopedia's) definition of militant atheism. In lieu of that, this topic barely qualifies as article-worthy (partly just because we don't know what to write about, beyond an aforementioned laundry list of disparate uses), and I still favor the dab version (which could easily be sourced if we felt the need, though there's zero OR in it). Articles like Feminazi and Islamofascism, by comparison, have articles only because various dictionaries do in fact list them. - Silence ( talk) 21:23, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Here's another definition:
In the ideological lexicon of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), atheism is a basic doctrine, which manifests in two major forms: scientific atheism and militant atheism. Scientific atheism, as the offspring of the European Enlightenment Movement, regards religion as illusory or false consciousness, non- scientific and backward; thus atheist propaganda is necessary to expunge religion. In contrast, militant atheism, as advocated by Lenin and the Russian Bolsheviks, treats religion as the dangerous opium and narcotic of the people, a wrong political ideology serving the interests of the anti-revolutionary forces; thus forces may be necessary to control or eliminate religion. Scientific atheism is the theoretical basis for tolerating religion while carrying out atheist propaganda, whereas militant atheism leads to antireligious measures.(p.103)
Source: Yang, Fenggang (2004). "Between Secularist Ideology and Desecularizing Reality: The Birth and Growth of Religious Research in Communist China", Sociology of Religion, Vol.65 (2), Summer, pp.101-119. [9]
--
Dannyno (
talk)
10:24, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Why do we need a separate section on Marxism-Leninism? NBeale ( talk) 15:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
As I've indicated before, at the moment this article is in danger of being a POV fork, with its completely inadequate opening citation of Baggini and all. If we want a serious article, we need to be clear about what the different concepts associated with the term are. First and foremost is the association with Lenin; then there are other applications of the term. -- Dannyno ( talk) 20:04, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Someone put a Neologism tag on. Given that there are 35 refs going back to 1894 this seems to me absurd. As for "not appropriate" - can someone at least sketch an argument why it might not be? NBeale ( talk) 18:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
I think what is meant by the tag is that it is a recent phenomenom to combine the two words to form one phrase, rather than to use the word "militant" as an adjective, or to more clearly describe the organised nature of a particular atheist movement. The phrase "militant atheist" as used in the current social atmosphere brings information about the user of the phrase as well as the recipient of the moniker, and as such is a neologism, since as a phrase it is best understood within the current context. Ninahexan ( talk) 00:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
It has far from become commonly used, and has not been accepted into the cultural lexicon yet. If you were to do a survey the vast majority of people would only understand it by using "militant" as an adjective (and their idea would most probably be very different from the definition given on this page). "Militant atheism" is not a unit in itself yet, and so in my mind is a neologism. Ninahexan ( talk) 10:49, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
It is not clear why Julian's definition is veiwed as more important than that of anyone else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.169.200.205 ( talk) 07:53, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
A few randomly-chosen bad examples:
Also, the fact that this term is typically a pejorative should be mentioned in the lede, not buried. Phil Spectre ( talk) 07:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps it's sometimes perjorative, but I don't think we can say "generally". Many of the examples are referring to people with approval as M.A. NBeale ( talk) 14:11, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Snalwibma may think that the murder of an untold number of believers because they were believers is not relevant to the topic of militant atheism, but I don't see how he can reasonable defend that position... but let him try, if he wishes here. And by the way, if you would like additional documentation on the subject of the mass murder of Christians at the hands of the militant Atheists in Russia, I have plenty of additional reliable sources that could be brought to bear here. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 12:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
The article is currently being stuffed with all sorts of references to the evils of the atheist Soviet regime, as evidenced by its killing of numerous theists/believers, and various items are being added to the “see also” and “external links” lists that are about the evils of the Soviet Union, not about the concept of militant atheism as such. Please someone tell me if I am wrong, but I think this represents a complete misreading of what this article is about. This is an article about militant atheism – the term, how it has been used, how the concept it describes differs from antitheism, plain vanilla atheism, etc. It is not an article whose purpose is to demonstrate how “militant” and therefore “evil” some atheists have been, in the opinion of certain Wikipedia editors. There is a world of difference between the concept of a ‘’militant atheist’’ (one who is “militant” in his atheism) and an atheist who is considered to be “militant” in the sense of attacking/killing/whatever other people. In particular, I object to the slanting of the article towards this second interpretation when the sole basis for doing so is the opinion of one or two Wikipedia editors. The Soviet Union described itself as militant[ly] atheist, and has been so described by others. Fine, let's include that information. We can also agree, I guess, that the Soviet Union's destruction of churches, murder of christians etc was bad - but unless there is a clear link between the "militant atheist" label and the evil deeds, to include an extensive catalogue of the latter is pure original research, synthesis, and POV-pushing. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 15:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
(e/c)I agree with Snalwibma. Militant atheism is clearly a disputed concept, but the article fails in most ways to make throw light on this dispute. The main aim of this article ought then to be to cover this dispute through reliable secondary sources discussing the theory behind this. The Julian Baggini definition and the section labeled "Concerns about the use of the term" is a start of what this article should be about, but the list of examples needs some weeding out. And yes the various "See also" with links to "Mass graves in the Soviet Union" and "religious persecution" are nothing but POV-pushing and needs to be removed. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 17:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
<I often don't agree with Smalwibma but he is a v experienced editor and I don't think he is likley to have voliated the letter or spirit of WP policy. There does seem to have been a bit of a flurry around this and I suggest we calm down. Certainly Militant Atheism isn't just a concept/term. At certain times in history Miliant Atheists have had considerable political power and it cannot be irrelevant to give links to articles which explore this in more detail. But we need to be careful not to go overboard. As for the definition: Baggini is a WP:RS and I think we should stick with this rather than try WP:SYN. NBeale ( talk) 20:39, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Ok NBeale that is in the collaborative spirit of wikipedia. LoveMonkey ( talk) 20:46, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
This whole discussion (or "discussion") shows why I have a big sense of unease about this article, and why I was quite pleased a couple of years ago when it was merged with antitheism - which is how it then stayed until a few months ago. The article is based on a phrase that has no clear meaning, and which is used (a) as a means of attacking an atheist with whom you particularly disagree (or by whom you feel particularly threatened), (b) occasionally as a kind of badge of honour by atheists who wish to proclaim something above and beyond "ordinary" atheism, (c) historically, in connection with a few specific individuals and movements (Hobbes, French revolution, Soviet revolution - more recently Dawkins et al., maybe). Given the lack of focus in the article, it tends to act as a magnet for those who wish to push an anti-atheist line - and I think this is precisely what is happening now. The term militant atheist becomes, not a label applied in particular ways in particular external sources and reported on by Wikipedia, but an invitation to Wikipedia editors to indulge in their own synthesis and original research. It's as if the article on Islamic fundamentalism was filled with material (all from reliable sources, no doubt) pointing out how offensive Islam in general is to people who do not share its beliefs, or as if the article on Fundamentalist Christianity was used as a platform from which to denounce the dangerous ideas of the more extreme elements of American conservatism. This article hasn't gone that far, but I am wary of it doing so. The article is in danger of turning into a soapbox. This is a tricky subject, and it needs sensitive handling. It has also proved pretty elusive over the years! There isn't in fact very much "out there" on the topic, bar a few key mentions - but often barely more than mentions, and that leads to people trying to "fill in the gaps" with some well-meant but unhelpful details brought in from sources that an editor thinks are relevant but which don't really help to address the central question - what is "militant atheism"? SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 21:26, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I thought you said that User talk:Snalwibma is not your friend. This is the second time you have posted your support. Why are you not holding him to the same standard as the rest of the editors you disagree with. LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
So if someone calls themselves a bigot why now are we to assume that the word or phrase has a different meaning when one person uses it over another. I mean if someone got on TV and said I am a bigot why should I assume that this person is now "not a bigot"? I mean Richard Darkins calls himself a militant atheist CNN calls Richard Dawkins a militant atheist. [12]. Either Dawkins is ignorant of what the terms has as a history (which means he is not informed?) or he willfully embraces the label and must accept the baggage that comes with his choice to express his allegiance. LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Since the intention of some editors here appears to be to write about the Soviet Union's repression of religion, and there is not much consensus on whether "militant atheism" means anything beyond the Soviet Union, why don't we do the obvious and merge what is worth saving here into the State Atheism article or the Religion in the Soviet Union article, or the Soviet Anti-Religious Legislation article or the Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union article. As it stands, this article is merely a POV fork for material that, if it belongs anywhere, belongs in one of those articles. We've just going to end up with yet another slant on the particular historical situation. -- Dannyno ( talk) 16:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
User:Snalwibma is edit warring. As a result of User:Snalwibma behavior this page is now protected. User:Snalwibma is being disruptive and not assuming Good faith. Here is but one example of User:Snalwibma and a comment just they just made.
User:Snalwibma is making counter-productive and inflammatory comments.
User:Snalwibma is attempting to establish an impossible criteria as the basis for this article. By posting comments like.
User:Snalwibma shows a bias toward whitewashing and protecting this term even at the expense of short changing and silencing, censoring actual history.
User:Snalwibma has apologists who are tag teaming and not holding User:Snalwibma and atheism to same standard as they are historical events instigated by militant atheists or just atheists. They are doing this by denying that the propagators of mass murder and repression of people freedoms clearly identified themselves as militant atheists and that these same propagators stated that they engaged in these murders and oppressions because of their belief in militant atheism. [19] User:Snalwibma and crew here know that the other atheism based articles and their page edit warring buddies (note the presents of Ttiotsw for example) will delete content wholesale and deny that the content they delete is appropriate from their understanding of the subject and then send the editor to other like subject articles. As User:Snalwibma is now completely reversing their position as they wrote.
User:Snalwibma then proceed to edit war and remove links and sourcing that showed exactly the connection they denied, requested and obviously don't like. This is defamatory and edit warring and destruction behavior. To say that they disagree because there is no established connection and then wholesale delete contributions that show that there is a connection and is sourced is behavior that should not be tolerated.
As to what happened to me when trying to add content to the
antitheism article. Edit warring. Wholesale removal of peer-reviewed articles and denial that the events and history related to the subject. Some stuff here.
Hypocrites decry censorship and then engage in removing history. Being critical of editors here and then engaging in behavior I have outlined in this entry. Behavior that has caused this article to be protected. Censors silence facts and historical events. No hair splitting nor pedantic wrangling will change to us what atheists did to our loved ones and friends in the name of atheism. Some editors on here exhibit those censoring, silencing and repressing characteristics and not giving people their right to be critical and tell what happened due to this movement and in the name of this movement. This is an encyclopedia not a dictionary. If Militant atheists in the name of militant atheism killed theists and repression their civil rights as a matter of historical fact then all of the events that can be validated deserve an entry in an encyclopedia. Why not this one.
LoveMonkey (
talk)
14:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not here nor is this article here to please, appease User:Snalwibma it is here to provide information of what a subject is and the history of that subject. Sourced content about the subject that meets wiki policy criteria belongs in the article regardless of if User:Snalwibma and his fellow editors like it or understand it or not.
LoveMonkey (
talk)
14:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
You have deleted factual information. You have deleted information sourced from a book published by an Oxford academic ( Kallistos Ware) you have used the flimsiest of justifications to engage in edit warring and violating the WP:3RR rule. You continue to deny your behavior and try and project your own unacceptable behavior onto editors you disagree with. I have noted and posted your behavior in a format used here at wikipedia. I did not violate the 3rr and then deny that I did that was you. You are still engaging in disruptive editing and appearing to not compromise one iota. Even in the face of documented peer reviewed sources that you have continued to remove, delete from the article. LoveMonkey ( talk) 18:11, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
OK, I accept that. Do you accept that if a group that called themselves militant atheists killed several million people and repressed peoples religious rights then what they did should be included in an article name militant atheism? There are criticism sections to various articles here on wiki correct. Like say Christianity for example. Why then are editors allowed to do edits like this one [25]? How is removing links critical of this subject justified under "not relevant"? How is that good editing how is that acceptable and how is it that this individual has yet to be called to task for this type of inexcusable disruptive edit warring behavior? LoveMonkey ( talk) 21:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
As for your comments above. The term definition that User:Snalwibma has already agree upon is in the lead. So your comment:"Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, so it has articles about topics, not entries about words or expressions. This article is trying to cover an expression with unclear meaning, not a topic. That's the fundamental problem." Is completely out of context with what has already transpired here between User:Snalwibma and User:NBeale. So no, there is already a definition agreed upon and sourced for the term in this article. You also state that you agree with the removal of the links but dodge the actual question. If you come across an extremely problematic article one that appears to have a dominate editor who is engaging in edit warring with other editors (just in case you missed User:Snalwibma 3rr vio is on another editors contributions not mine) do you try and write and add a complete section of content which would be deleted or do you do add a link. Small note here my question was should this article have a criticism section. You did not address that. As for your reasoning as to why my link should have been removed. You have two editors that disagree and therefore before doing 3 reverts on those links is edit warring and not engaging in dialog on the article talkpage. So I am attempting to clarify. I apologize if my points before unclear. Let me be real clear now. Should User:Snalwibma continue to revert and violate 3rr to remove those links or should he BEFORE reverting the links discuss there removal here on the talkpage. So which behavior for User:Snalwibma do you User:Hans Adler endorse? LoveMonkey ( talk) 14:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Ok what about the policy WP:Harrassment for example in specific -User space harassment. User:Snalwibma has now twice posted personal attacks and blunt denials that they violated WP:3RR to my talkpage. Does it not seem that splitting the article discussion and then seeding it to an editors talk page is disruptive and could be seen as an attempt to frustrate the editor that is being bombarded with now multiple locations of disagreement? Doing it twice is an obvious pattern and won't that kinda seem like harassing behavior? Just asking. Let alone that it also appears to attempt to make the issue or issues on personal by taking them to a persons talkpage. So User talk:Hans Adler what is your position on the WP:Harrassment policy and also if User behavior according to WP:EW is or is not edit warring? LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
On the issue of the actual content then the issue I see is that what killed people in the Soviets was a state actor that was based on some form of Communism. That people who subscribe to communism of Engels/Marx and Lenin are "atheists" is simply a side effect of the materialism in the dialectic materialism originally presented by Engels and Marx well before the Bolshevik revolution. There is an oft-mentioned figure of "100 million" that is associated with atheists but this number comes in part from The Black Book of Communism. On that Wikipedia article we doesn't actually mention "atheism" at all and even on the Red Terror article we also don't mention "atheism". This is for an obvious reason - the atheism isn't relevant. What *is* relevant is the dialectic materialism. If you follow the philosophy from the Communist Manifesto though you'll probably find that the materialism isn't one of nature verses the supernature but "the materialist conception of history". In modern times you obviously can now have supernature with Communism (vis-a-vis the Catholic Communists of Italy), but 150 years ago there were no political expressions of these new philosophies: it was only theory in books. The repeated attempts to turn this article into a coat-rack of abuses of communism makes as much sense as plastering an article on car engines with various high-profile car accidents because all cars have car engines and cars crash. We're discussing a component not the end product i.e. communism has traditionally promoted materialism of which atheism is one example of how this is expressed but we're discussing atheism and so whilst we can discuss materialism it is a bridge too far to then jump to the excesses of communism. Ttiotsw ( talk) 19:58, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
David Barrett, Todd Johnson, Justin Long
LoveMonkey ( talk) 21:13, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
"Ivan Fyodorovitch added in parenthesis that the whole natural law lies in that faith, and that if you were to destroy in mankind the belief in immortality, not only love but every living force maintaining the life of the world would at once be dried up. Moreover, nothing then would be immoral, everything would be lawful, even cannibalism. That's not all. He ended by asserting that for every individual, like ourselves, who does not believe in God or immortality, the moral law of nature must immediately be changed into the exact contrary of the former religious law, and that egoism, even to crime, must become not only lawful but even recognised as the inevitable, the most rational, even honourable outcome of his position. From this paradox, gentlemen, you can judge of the rest of our eccentric and paradoxical friend Ivan Fyodorovitch's theories."" The Brothers Karamazov, Ch. 11
""'Everything is lawful,' you mean? Everything is lawful, is that it?" Ivan scowled, and all at once turned strangely pale. "Ah, you've caught up yesterday's phrase, which so offended Muisov -- and which Dmitri pounced upon so naively and paraphrased!" he smiled queerly. "Yes, if you like, 'everything is lawful' since the word has been said, I won't deny it. And Mitya's version isn't bad."" The Brother Karamazov Ch. 36
"I asked him [Ivan], 'without God and immortal life? All things are lawful then, they can do what they like?'" Brothers Karamazov, Ch. 73
"If there is no God, then I am God." The Possessed, Ch. 6 Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 00:25, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Secondly, it is important to realise that Encyclopedia Britannica's relationship with the WCE is simply that the guy who did the latter's stats also did the EB's "review of the year" figures on religious affiliation. The EB does not in fact cite WCE's figures on "martyrdom".
To sum up: If this article has any legitimacy at all (debateable), then any figures it cites should come from from the historical consensus, not fringe sources. -- Dannyno ( talk) 17:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't think anyone is arguing that the article should contain no information on the fact that many people were killed in the name of the "militant atheist" communist/soviet state, and no one has (recently, at least) deleted this basic fact. But what has been deleted is excessive cataloguing of the evil deeds which goes far beyond what is clearly attributable to the "militant atheist" state, which brings the story to a historical point well beyond the end of anything going by the name of "militant atheism", and which is based on dubious sources. Let's mention it, but keep it in proportion to its place in this article (as opposed, for example, to Mass killings under Communist regimes), and let's also not lose sight of the other ways in which the phrase militant atheism is used. Or perhaps just turn the whole sorry mess back into a redirect to Antitheism. It's only a phrase, after all. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 14:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Sorry to disrupt the ongoing argument (which was mentioned at WP:AN/I, & led me to this article), but I'd like to make an edit which doesn't appear to touch on any topic under discussion: Would anyone object to adding a link in the "See also" section to anti-clericalism? I believe that subject is relevant to this one. -- llywrch ( talk) 21:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Spoon principle: We don't list all restaurants in the article " spoon" (or in the article " cook", but "spoon" is an inherently funny word, and is good for the name of the principle. )
List of all misdeeds of militant atheists of the Soviet Union belongs to the article
Religion in the Soviet Union (underdeveloiped, BTW), or, even better,
Persecution of religion in the Soviet Union. After filling this redlink, (it was a redlink at the moment of writing of this text) with the purpose to avoid
unnecessary duplication, the
wikipedia:Summary style advises that articles
Religion in the Soviet Union,
Militant atheism, and even
Vladimir Lenin, may have sections, variously titled, to match the logic of the text, which summarize the article
Persecution of religion in the Soviet Union and begin with template {{main|Persecution of religion in the Soviet Union}}.
Sorry I don't have enough time to write a nice essay to prove mu suggestion, but I hope this should satisfy all sides: both these who want this article to concentrate on the concept of "militant atheism" and these who want to show in full all possible consequences of this concept. - Altenmann >t 02:26, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Mr Guettarda your post reminds me of the problem of induction. In that the bad Christians and or theists get all of the force and exploitation of the anti-theist and get front page news. So the problem of induction says it is not a hard and fast rule if one bad apple can ruin the lot. Funny how the whole thing takes on a bizarre uniqueness when people try and apply the same standard used by the anti-theist to the anti-theist. And I wonder how an atheist activist like Mao Zedong should be represented here. There is a sequence in the movie Seven Years in Tibet, the one where the monks have made a Sandpainting on the floor in their temple. Of course if you've seen the movie you know what the Chinese soldier said to them when he destroyed it. That religion is the opiate of society. Funny how these concerns (like this one in that movie) seem to get treated as delusions. LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Sure, it's a derogatory label applied to Atheists who speak out about their beliefs. But beyond this, the literal breakdown of the phrase, to me, goes like this:
Militant = "competitive: showing a fighting disposition" (Source: Princeton.edu)
Atheism = Atheism can be either the rejection of theism, or the conviction that deities do not exist. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. (source wikipedia)
Clearly, "Militant-Atheism" would mean someone who is a hostile atheist. However, what I think the main article fails to mention is that there is a difference between Atheism and Anti-Theism. Atheism is a BELIEF held in your mind (or in conversation, debate and literature). Anti-Theism while it's also a way of expressing a simple rejection to organized religion, it is also the active oppositional engagement with theism whether politically, economically, financially, or even physically (eg. Bible Burning). If Richard Dawkins engages in any of these forms, he's being militant but from what I've seen, he's not reached past discussion and public donations to scientific institutions. But hey, the militant-THEISTS guest list would, in my guess, be much longer simply due to the fact there are less Atheists in the world but there doesn't seem to be a Wikipedia page for Militant-Theist.
This whole article, in my opinion, attempts to smear other Atheists as if their being an Atheist had anything to do with religion or theism, when clearly ATHEISM is about [the lack of belief in] God... not a man-made theism. God and Religion are two separate things. Start there and the rest is easy. If you reject theism, you are a non-theist. If you don't believe in the existence of a deity, then you are an Atheist.
Militant-Atheism IS Anti-Theism. But it's just inappropriate labeling and to be honest, slightly hurtful to the average atheist. It would be similar to me (an American) calling every person who was born south of the United States a "Mexican" just because their skin is brown. This whole page is a disambiguation and, to me, it's not necessary. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
ItsText (
talk •
contribs)
02:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
May be it is a derogatory label in some contexts, but in the context of Communism, used by Communists, it was a label of pride. In fact, the whole idea of Communism is militant. There is no peaceful ways of transition from capitalism to communism in theoretical Communism. ItsText, I would suggest you not to do originsl resesrch trying to derive gthe meaning of the term "militant atheism" from the meanings of the separate words. In fact from the introduction of the term and until the demise of the Soviet Union the term "militant atheism" meant the active, propagating, "crusading" (pardon my oxymoron) atheism, which fiercely fights religion, rather than passive atheism, kinda, "uhm... there are no Gods. Are you saying there are? Well, good for you, I don't care." For example, Leo Taxil was a prominent case of fiercely militant atheist (wikipedia article sucks, but still you can see this). - Altenmann >t 06:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
This above tactics is one that has repeatedly been used to try to deny the obvious. This is unacceptable hairsplitting and a criteria no article could live up to as it is a fallacy (i.e. argument from silence). One, it denies that militant atheists would engage in antireligious, anticlerical and antitheism behavior (why is that?). Two it insists that these ideas are distinct, different and share no commonality and are separate and have no relation. Three, it implies that by insisting that the concepts are different separate and share no common ground then unless data and sourcing meet this strict and narrow criteria of being word exactly how this editor wants(who is not basing this criteria on wikipedia policy) then this editor by their criteria, not wikipedias, will continue to not allow any of the datas inclusion. LoveMonkey ( talk) 21:06, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
After reading this talk page and the article itself, here is another thing to be done: the article must clearly distinguish two usages of the term: the usage in its direct meaning, and the pejorative usage. First of all, the intro definition must not contain any judgements (pejorative or not), just a definition. The second sentence must address the two aspects of the usage, with refernces (from scholarly treatments of thye subject, not just quotations of the usage). Accordingly, there must be two major sections devoted to the two meanings, each of them may have their own structure: history, per country,etc.
Rationale: the word "communist" may be used in these two meanings in exactly the same way: communists use it with pride, while their opponents insult each other by calling each other "communists" due to minor shift in left-right-wingedness. Nevertheless, we don't write in the intro of " communism" that the main meaning of the word "communist" is pejorative, despite the fact that the "mainstream usage" is pejorative: I bet there is ratio of 1000:1 for non-communists:communists.
In addition, the coatrack section must be treated similarly to WP:TRIVIA rules. Significant cases must be insorporated into smooth text. Trivial utterances, like, "John Doe called Jane Nobody militant atheistess", must go: they add nothing to understanding of the concept, unless these facts are used in scholarly sources as an illustration of some details of the topic. - Altenmann >t 07:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
(←) Hmmm. There are surely different connotations, and the precise words used in the neutral definition may slant things one way or the other – that's the problem as I see it, but I'm sure it's not insurmountable. I assume you mean the "pejorative" idea should not be in the lead sentence, rather than that it should not be in the lead paragraph/section. Perhaps we should rough out some possible wordings. I wonder whether the lead sentences of this version or this one (both from almost three years ago) might have something to offer. Here is a suggested revised opening (stripped of references and wikilinks), plus an outline of the way the article could be structured:
I have included the "pejorative" comment in the lead because I think it helps to make sense of the counter-use of the term as a badge of honour. Any comments? SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 12:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
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This article was militantly merged into antitheism by User:Merzul, please discuss Talk:Antitheism#Dumped a lot of material. -- Merzul 15:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
There are 60,000 ghits for this term, it needs its own article. NBeale 09:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Ttiotsw (and anyone else reading). It's great that we have another editor (from a different PoV) working on this article. I think we can make something fun and interesting and useful together. My thoughts on how this article might be structured are that we could roughly group them into:
What do people think? NBeale 13:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
NBeale 19:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there is evidence to say that this is usually used as a perjorative term (and I def wouldn't regard a citation by Mark Steyn as proof!) and in any case it's OR to say so. Lenin and Carmen Argibay and Joseph McCabe certainly don't use it in that sense. And no-one uses it to mean "people who are more outspoken than the general population on subjects which implicitly promote atheism". Can we stick to the neutral formulation in the lead-in please, and if you want to discuss the perjorative/descriptive aspect perhaps you could make a properly refed section? NBeale 19:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I see trouble ahead! POV wars here we come, unless we are extremely careful. This article could so easily become a name-calling roll-call. Admittedly it is only a stub, but the present structure is woeful - just a list of articles in newspapers in which the term has been bandied about, and those who have been described as "militant atheists", almost always pejoratively. It badly needs some historical background, some context, some explanation. I am therefore restoring something of the lead section which mentions the pejorative nature of the term. Also - what on earth is "See also anti-intellectualism" doing there? I will delete this weaselish link! Snalwibma 20:13, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Talking about "see also"... here are some:
Perhaps some of these could even be merged. -- Merzul 20:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I suggest moving it to Militant atheism (—ism rather than —ist), following Atheism, Theism, Monotheism etc. That way, it is also less likely to start looking like an exercise in name-calling! ;-P Snalwibma 20:40, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Renaming and merging will not so much avoid any POV pitfalls, but it would allow commentary on essentially the same phenomenon to be treated together. These terms are used interchangingly by both sides, so for example Kurtz's editorial equally applies to "militant atheism". I would prefer to see these two articles "militant atheism" and "evangelical atheism" redirect to perhaps big subsections within antitheism, where the historical context can be expanded. I mean, let's not be fooled by what people call themselves, I think the following are just as militant as other outspoken atheists:
It basically depends on what we want here, if we are going to focus very deeply on the usage of each term, then merging is inappropriate, but I don't really care about how these terms are exactly used, I think we can leave that kind of research to lexicographers, and instead focus on the more broader concept of people actively campaigning against theism. This would require some restructuring of the antitheism article, but I think it would end up a far more comprehensive entry for all three terms rather than having separate entries listing their usage. Anyway, now I'm really going off on a wikibreak! :) -- Merzul 09:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
There are 60k ghits for "Militant Atheist", 32k ghits for "Militant Atheism" and only 632 for "Atheistic Evangelism". So I think the re-titling is questionable and the merge to this scacely-used term would be quite wrong. NBeale 06:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
All the various terms used:
Each of these terms have been used in reference to Richard Dawkins. I would prefer a merge of them all into antitheism, which states "An alternative term for this stance is militant atheism but not in a violent militaristic way." On the other hand, have look at feminism... perhaps we should even have cyborg atheism. -- Merzul 13:49, 11 April 2007 (UTC) (I have taken the liberty of adding one to your list! Snalwibma)
I'd like to wait and see what hapens to these suggestions of renaming and/or merging before doing much to this article. But I am concerned about the section on "commentators". Most of this is a selection of stuff from the popular press which seems to amount to little more than name-calling by atheist and anti-atheist journalists. I don't think much of it meets the criteria for inclusion in a serious encyclopedia. So what if a London psychiatrist who has made a bit of a name for himself in the media applies the label to Richard Dawkins? So what if a Washington journalist writes a blog (and it is, as far as I can see, a blog) in which he uses the term "militant atheist" and possibly (though not very clearly) applies this label to another journalist called Polly Toynbee? Most of this stuff, IMHO, should be shown the door. If the article stays, we need a serious discussion about the use of the term in more noteworthy contexts, not a collection of "oh look, here's another one" selections from the ephemeral press! Snalwibma 12:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I have tagged this article with the wonderfully brilliant synthesis template. I think I created it specifically for this article, or perhaps it was for self-refuting idea :P But the point is again the same. We need sources who actually say things like "here are a few commentators that use the term", because it is not our job to pick such references ourselves. Once we have a few general sources on militant atheism, its history and usage, I think nobody will object to fleshing it out with a few little extras here and there, but what is disturbing is that this article doesn't have a single reference that would serve to discuss this at secondary level of analysis. -- Merzul 02:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Snalwibma, the questions you are asking are precisely what an entry on "Militant atheism" must cover and the direction you are taking the article is very good, I'm not against having this a separate article, if we can answer the questions you are asking and find the material you are looking for. Otherwise, merging doesn't mean we must lose much of the material, but to put it somewhere were such questions can be answered.
Responding to NBeale above. Policy isn't very clear on this issue, it does say "most articles should rely predominantly on secondary sources", but the guideline of neologisms is much clearer, especially this part with some added emphasis by myself:
The second reason is that articles on neologisms frequently attempt to track the emergence and use of the term as observed in communities of interest or on the internet — without attributing these claims to reliable secondary sources. If the article is not verifiable (see Reliable sources for neologisms, below) then it constitutes analysis, synthesis and original research and consequently cannot be accepted by Wikipedia. This is true even though there may be many examples of the term in use.
In any case, this is the appropriate way to do things, and it is not an infinite regress, the distinction is easy. Take the example with "new prog":
Naturally, this is a rough division, it is not always easy to say what is a primary or secondary source. Except some simple cases, e.g. The Bible is always a primary source. And we can naturally also draw from other tertiary sources like the Britannica, but we should not rely too much on creating a narrative by stringing together an original presentation based on such primary level usages of a term. -- Merzul 09:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
However we look at it, a term used by Lenin in 1923 cannot be described as a neologism! NBeale 11:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, it is hard to find, so let's post here if you do find something:
Ah, well, there might be hope for this. One source about the term's modern usage, but it is quite polemical. --
Merzul
13:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Seems to be a few sources, I would still very much prefer a merge, as I said above, people are using these terms completely interchangingly to refer to the same phenomenon, I don't see what is the purpose of keeping separate articles for essentially the same issues. This are fringe articles anyway, will remain rather stubby, as opposed to a proper treatment at one place so editor effort isn't dispersed, we don't have so much redundant information. Quality over quantity in short, and we have even section redirects so each term could be redirected to the appropriate section if need be. -- Merzul 14:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I have added an article and a book about Soviet militant atheism (neither of which I have seen). Snalwibma 14:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Who? If this person deserves to be added to the list, we at least need to know who he or she is. The wikilink leads to a disambig page with four or five people listed. Which one is the person in question? And where does he/she fit in to the story? The name is just chucked in, and it doesn't even make syntactical sense. Please (someone who knows) enlighten us and sort it out! Please don't just dump ill-formatted stuff and leave it for others to sort out. Snalwibma 21:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
(BTW - I do know who Feuerbach was, so there's no need to tell me here! Just trying to make a point... Snalwibma 06:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC))
And now someone called Charles Baker, from the 1920s but just tacked on at the end of the list, with no consideration for how (or whether) he fits in. Until NBeale comes here and discusses what is best for the article, I will start deleting all these pointless additions. Snalwibma 21:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Well it's Start Class so that's something at least. The reason I added Baker was because of the "definition" given. I was actually looking for the call by Engels that Lenin cites, but it seems no refs for that are available. I think however that we have essentially the same definition from 1923 and 2007 so we can regard it as an established term. I'd still suggest a structure that went:
This would give a logical and NPoV structure from which the article could grow organically. What do people think? NBeale 20:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, I reached consensus with myself that merging all of this into antitheism is the best way forward. They will all get their subsection to discuss whatever specific material about any particular term, but the above historic outline should be developed for all of them collectively. So there is still a lot of work, but now there is some hope for a quality article, please discuss how to integrate all this material here. Also, if this was too militant, then reverting is very easy, no need to scream at me for being bold, I think this was a genuinely good move, and it is not suppressing any information, it will all be there for everyone to see, but the history can now draw on a lot more sources. -- Merzul 15:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The present article has been developed in Antitheism but there is now a consensus that it does not belong there. We have a proper definition from Julian Baggini and plenty of examples. However I have had to remove the "generally used confrontationally" section because the ref does not support the statement at all. NBeale ( talk) 11:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
What we really need is a reputable dictionary's (or more likely, a philosophy/theology encyclopedia's) definition of militant atheism. In lieu of that, this topic barely qualifies as article-worthy (partly just because we don't know what to write about, beyond an aforementioned laundry list of disparate uses), and I still favor the dab version (which could easily be sourced if we felt the need, though there's zero OR in it). Articles like Feminazi and Islamofascism, by comparison, have articles only because various dictionaries do in fact list them. - Silence ( talk) 21:23, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Here's another definition:
In the ideological lexicon of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), atheism is a basic doctrine, which manifests in two major forms: scientific atheism and militant atheism. Scientific atheism, as the offspring of the European Enlightenment Movement, regards religion as illusory or false consciousness, non- scientific and backward; thus atheist propaganda is necessary to expunge religion. In contrast, militant atheism, as advocated by Lenin and the Russian Bolsheviks, treats religion as the dangerous opium and narcotic of the people, a wrong political ideology serving the interests of the anti-revolutionary forces; thus forces may be necessary to control or eliminate religion. Scientific atheism is the theoretical basis for tolerating religion while carrying out atheist propaganda, whereas militant atheism leads to antireligious measures.(p.103)
Source: Yang, Fenggang (2004). "Between Secularist Ideology and Desecularizing Reality: The Birth and Growth of Religious Research in Communist China", Sociology of Religion, Vol.65 (2), Summer, pp.101-119. [9]
--
Dannyno (
talk)
10:24, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
Why do we need a separate section on Marxism-Leninism? NBeale ( talk) 15:20, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
As I've indicated before, at the moment this article is in danger of being a POV fork, with its completely inadequate opening citation of Baggini and all. If we want a serious article, we need to be clear about what the different concepts associated with the term are. First and foremost is the association with Lenin; then there are other applications of the term. -- Dannyno ( talk) 20:04, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
Someone put a Neologism tag on. Given that there are 35 refs going back to 1894 this seems to me absurd. As for "not appropriate" - can someone at least sketch an argument why it might not be? NBeale ( talk) 18:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
I think what is meant by the tag is that it is a recent phenomenom to combine the two words to form one phrase, rather than to use the word "militant" as an adjective, or to more clearly describe the organised nature of a particular atheist movement. The phrase "militant atheist" as used in the current social atmosphere brings information about the user of the phrase as well as the recipient of the moniker, and as such is a neologism, since as a phrase it is best understood within the current context. Ninahexan ( talk) 00:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
It has far from become commonly used, and has not been accepted into the cultural lexicon yet. If you were to do a survey the vast majority of people would only understand it by using "militant" as an adjective (and their idea would most probably be very different from the definition given on this page). "Militant atheism" is not a unit in itself yet, and so in my mind is a neologism. Ninahexan ( talk) 10:49, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
It is not clear why Julian's definition is veiwed as more important than that of anyone else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.169.200.205 ( talk) 07:53, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
A few randomly-chosen bad examples:
Also, the fact that this term is typically a pejorative should be mentioned in the lede, not buried. Phil Spectre ( talk) 07:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps it's sometimes perjorative, but I don't think we can say "generally". Many of the examples are referring to people with approval as M.A. NBeale ( talk) 14:11, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Snalwibma may think that the murder of an untold number of believers because they were believers is not relevant to the topic of militant atheism, but I don't see how he can reasonable defend that position... but let him try, if he wishes here. And by the way, if you would like additional documentation on the subject of the mass murder of Christians at the hands of the militant Atheists in Russia, I have plenty of additional reliable sources that could be brought to bear here. Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 12:36, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
The article is currently being stuffed with all sorts of references to the evils of the atheist Soviet regime, as evidenced by its killing of numerous theists/believers, and various items are being added to the “see also” and “external links” lists that are about the evils of the Soviet Union, not about the concept of militant atheism as such. Please someone tell me if I am wrong, but I think this represents a complete misreading of what this article is about. This is an article about militant atheism – the term, how it has been used, how the concept it describes differs from antitheism, plain vanilla atheism, etc. It is not an article whose purpose is to demonstrate how “militant” and therefore “evil” some atheists have been, in the opinion of certain Wikipedia editors. There is a world of difference between the concept of a ‘’militant atheist’’ (one who is “militant” in his atheism) and an atheist who is considered to be “militant” in the sense of attacking/killing/whatever other people. In particular, I object to the slanting of the article towards this second interpretation when the sole basis for doing so is the opinion of one or two Wikipedia editors. The Soviet Union described itself as militant[ly] atheist, and has been so described by others. Fine, let's include that information. We can also agree, I guess, that the Soviet Union's destruction of churches, murder of christians etc was bad - but unless there is a clear link between the "militant atheist" label and the evil deeds, to include an extensive catalogue of the latter is pure original research, synthesis, and POV-pushing. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 15:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
(e/c)I agree with Snalwibma. Militant atheism is clearly a disputed concept, but the article fails in most ways to make throw light on this dispute. The main aim of this article ought then to be to cover this dispute through reliable secondary sources discussing the theory behind this. The Julian Baggini definition and the section labeled "Concerns about the use of the term" is a start of what this article should be about, but the list of examples needs some weeding out. And yes the various "See also" with links to "Mass graves in the Soviet Union" and "religious persecution" are nothing but POV-pushing and needs to be removed. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 17:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
<I often don't agree with Smalwibma but he is a v experienced editor and I don't think he is likley to have voliated the letter or spirit of WP policy. There does seem to have been a bit of a flurry around this and I suggest we calm down. Certainly Militant Atheism isn't just a concept/term. At certain times in history Miliant Atheists have had considerable political power and it cannot be irrelevant to give links to articles which explore this in more detail. But we need to be careful not to go overboard. As for the definition: Baggini is a WP:RS and I think we should stick with this rather than try WP:SYN. NBeale ( talk) 20:39, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Ok NBeale that is in the collaborative spirit of wikipedia. LoveMonkey ( talk) 20:46, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
This whole discussion (or "discussion") shows why I have a big sense of unease about this article, and why I was quite pleased a couple of years ago when it was merged with antitheism - which is how it then stayed until a few months ago. The article is based on a phrase that has no clear meaning, and which is used (a) as a means of attacking an atheist with whom you particularly disagree (or by whom you feel particularly threatened), (b) occasionally as a kind of badge of honour by atheists who wish to proclaim something above and beyond "ordinary" atheism, (c) historically, in connection with a few specific individuals and movements (Hobbes, French revolution, Soviet revolution - more recently Dawkins et al., maybe). Given the lack of focus in the article, it tends to act as a magnet for those who wish to push an anti-atheist line - and I think this is precisely what is happening now. The term militant atheist becomes, not a label applied in particular ways in particular external sources and reported on by Wikipedia, but an invitation to Wikipedia editors to indulge in their own synthesis and original research. It's as if the article on Islamic fundamentalism was filled with material (all from reliable sources, no doubt) pointing out how offensive Islam in general is to people who do not share its beliefs, or as if the article on Fundamentalist Christianity was used as a platform from which to denounce the dangerous ideas of the more extreme elements of American conservatism. This article hasn't gone that far, but I am wary of it doing so. The article is in danger of turning into a soapbox. This is a tricky subject, and it needs sensitive handling. It has also proved pretty elusive over the years! There isn't in fact very much "out there" on the topic, bar a few key mentions - but often barely more than mentions, and that leads to people trying to "fill in the gaps" with some well-meant but unhelpful details brought in from sources that an editor thinks are relevant but which don't really help to address the central question - what is "militant atheism"? SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 21:26, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I thought you said that User talk:Snalwibma is not your friend. This is the second time you have posted your support. Why are you not holding him to the same standard as the rest of the editors you disagree with. LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
So if someone calls themselves a bigot why now are we to assume that the word or phrase has a different meaning when one person uses it over another. I mean if someone got on TV and said I am a bigot why should I assume that this person is now "not a bigot"? I mean Richard Darkins calls himself a militant atheist CNN calls Richard Dawkins a militant atheist. [12]. Either Dawkins is ignorant of what the terms has as a history (which means he is not informed?) or he willfully embraces the label and must accept the baggage that comes with his choice to express his allegiance. LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Since the intention of some editors here appears to be to write about the Soviet Union's repression of religion, and there is not much consensus on whether "militant atheism" means anything beyond the Soviet Union, why don't we do the obvious and merge what is worth saving here into the State Atheism article or the Religion in the Soviet Union article, or the Soviet Anti-Religious Legislation article or the Persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union article. As it stands, this article is merely a POV fork for material that, if it belongs anywhere, belongs in one of those articles. We've just going to end up with yet another slant on the particular historical situation. -- Dannyno ( talk) 16:54, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
User:Snalwibma is edit warring. As a result of User:Snalwibma behavior this page is now protected. User:Snalwibma is being disruptive and not assuming Good faith. Here is but one example of User:Snalwibma and a comment just they just made.
User:Snalwibma is making counter-productive and inflammatory comments.
User:Snalwibma is attempting to establish an impossible criteria as the basis for this article. By posting comments like.
User:Snalwibma shows a bias toward whitewashing and protecting this term even at the expense of short changing and silencing, censoring actual history.
User:Snalwibma has apologists who are tag teaming and not holding User:Snalwibma and atheism to same standard as they are historical events instigated by militant atheists or just atheists. They are doing this by denying that the propagators of mass murder and repression of people freedoms clearly identified themselves as militant atheists and that these same propagators stated that they engaged in these murders and oppressions because of their belief in militant atheism. [19] User:Snalwibma and crew here know that the other atheism based articles and their page edit warring buddies (note the presents of Ttiotsw for example) will delete content wholesale and deny that the content they delete is appropriate from their understanding of the subject and then send the editor to other like subject articles. As User:Snalwibma is now completely reversing their position as they wrote.
User:Snalwibma then proceed to edit war and remove links and sourcing that showed exactly the connection they denied, requested and obviously don't like. This is defamatory and edit warring and destruction behavior. To say that they disagree because there is no established connection and then wholesale delete contributions that show that there is a connection and is sourced is behavior that should not be tolerated.
As to what happened to me when trying to add content to the
antitheism article. Edit warring. Wholesale removal of peer-reviewed articles and denial that the events and history related to the subject. Some stuff here.
Hypocrites decry censorship and then engage in removing history. Being critical of editors here and then engaging in behavior I have outlined in this entry. Behavior that has caused this article to be protected. Censors silence facts and historical events. No hair splitting nor pedantic wrangling will change to us what atheists did to our loved ones and friends in the name of atheism. Some editors on here exhibit those censoring, silencing and repressing characteristics and not giving people their right to be critical and tell what happened due to this movement and in the name of this movement. This is an encyclopedia not a dictionary. If Militant atheists in the name of militant atheism killed theists and repression their civil rights as a matter of historical fact then all of the events that can be validated deserve an entry in an encyclopedia. Why not this one.
LoveMonkey (
talk)
14:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not here nor is this article here to please, appease User:Snalwibma it is here to provide information of what a subject is and the history of that subject. Sourced content about the subject that meets wiki policy criteria belongs in the article regardless of if User:Snalwibma and his fellow editors like it or understand it or not.
LoveMonkey (
talk)
14:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
You have deleted factual information. You have deleted information sourced from a book published by an Oxford academic ( Kallistos Ware) you have used the flimsiest of justifications to engage in edit warring and violating the WP:3RR rule. You continue to deny your behavior and try and project your own unacceptable behavior onto editors you disagree with. I have noted and posted your behavior in a format used here at wikipedia. I did not violate the 3rr and then deny that I did that was you. You are still engaging in disruptive editing and appearing to not compromise one iota. Even in the face of documented peer reviewed sources that you have continued to remove, delete from the article. LoveMonkey ( talk) 18:11, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
OK, I accept that. Do you accept that if a group that called themselves militant atheists killed several million people and repressed peoples religious rights then what they did should be included in an article name militant atheism? There are criticism sections to various articles here on wiki correct. Like say Christianity for example. Why then are editors allowed to do edits like this one [25]? How is removing links critical of this subject justified under "not relevant"? How is that good editing how is that acceptable and how is it that this individual has yet to be called to task for this type of inexcusable disruptive edit warring behavior? LoveMonkey ( talk) 21:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
As for your comments above. The term definition that User:Snalwibma has already agree upon is in the lead. So your comment:"Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, so it has articles about topics, not entries about words or expressions. This article is trying to cover an expression with unclear meaning, not a topic. That's the fundamental problem." Is completely out of context with what has already transpired here between User:Snalwibma and User:NBeale. So no, there is already a definition agreed upon and sourced for the term in this article. You also state that you agree with the removal of the links but dodge the actual question. If you come across an extremely problematic article one that appears to have a dominate editor who is engaging in edit warring with other editors (just in case you missed User:Snalwibma 3rr vio is on another editors contributions not mine) do you try and write and add a complete section of content which would be deleted or do you do add a link. Small note here my question was should this article have a criticism section. You did not address that. As for your reasoning as to why my link should have been removed. You have two editors that disagree and therefore before doing 3 reverts on those links is edit warring and not engaging in dialog on the article talkpage. So I am attempting to clarify. I apologize if my points before unclear. Let me be real clear now. Should User:Snalwibma continue to revert and violate 3rr to remove those links or should he BEFORE reverting the links discuss there removal here on the talkpage. So which behavior for User:Snalwibma do you User:Hans Adler endorse? LoveMonkey ( talk) 14:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Ok what about the policy WP:Harrassment for example in specific -User space harassment. User:Snalwibma has now twice posted personal attacks and blunt denials that they violated WP:3RR to my talkpage. Does it not seem that splitting the article discussion and then seeding it to an editors talk page is disruptive and could be seen as an attempt to frustrate the editor that is being bombarded with now multiple locations of disagreement? Doing it twice is an obvious pattern and won't that kinda seem like harassing behavior? Just asking. Let alone that it also appears to attempt to make the issue or issues on personal by taking them to a persons talkpage. So User talk:Hans Adler what is your position on the WP:Harrassment policy and also if User behavior according to WP:EW is or is not edit warring? LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
On the issue of the actual content then the issue I see is that what killed people in the Soviets was a state actor that was based on some form of Communism. That people who subscribe to communism of Engels/Marx and Lenin are "atheists" is simply a side effect of the materialism in the dialectic materialism originally presented by Engels and Marx well before the Bolshevik revolution. There is an oft-mentioned figure of "100 million" that is associated with atheists but this number comes in part from The Black Book of Communism. On that Wikipedia article we doesn't actually mention "atheism" at all and even on the Red Terror article we also don't mention "atheism". This is for an obvious reason - the atheism isn't relevant. What *is* relevant is the dialectic materialism. If you follow the philosophy from the Communist Manifesto though you'll probably find that the materialism isn't one of nature verses the supernature but "the materialist conception of history". In modern times you obviously can now have supernature with Communism (vis-a-vis the Catholic Communists of Italy), but 150 years ago there were no political expressions of these new philosophies: it was only theory in books. The repeated attempts to turn this article into a coat-rack of abuses of communism makes as much sense as plastering an article on car engines with various high-profile car accidents because all cars have car engines and cars crash. We're discussing a component not the end product i.e. communism has traditionally promoted materialism of which atheism is one example of how this is expressed but we're discussing atheism and so whilst we can discuss materialism it is a bridge too far to then jump to the excesses of communism. Ttiotsw ( talk) 19:58, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
David Barrett, Todd Johnson, Justin Long
LoveMonkey ( talk) 21:13, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
"Ivan Fyodorovitch added in parenthesis that the whole natural law lies in that faith, and that if you were to destroy in mankind the belief in immortality, not only love but every living force maintaining the life of the world would at once be dried up. Moreover, nothing then would be immoral, everything would be lawful, even cannibalism. That's not all. He ended by asserting that for every individual, like ourselves, who does not believe in God or immortality, the moral law of nature must immediately be changed into the exact contrary of the former religious law, and that egoism, even to crime, must become not only lawful but even recognised as the inevitable, the most rational, even honourable outcome of his position. From this paradox, gentlemen, you can judge of the rest of our eccentric and paradoxical friend Ivan Fyodorovitch's theories."" The Brothers Karamazov, Ch. 11
""'Everything is lawful,' you mean? Everything is lawful, is that it?" Ivan scowled, and all at once turned strangely pale. "Ah, you've caught up yesterday's phrase, which so offended Muisov -- and which Dmitri pounced upon so naively and paraphrased!" he smiled queerly. "Yes, if you like, 'everything is lawful' since the word has been said, I won't deny it. And Mitya's version isn't bad."" The Brother Karamazov Ch. 36
"I asked him [Ivan], 'without God and immortal life? All things are lawful then, they can do what they like?'" Brothers Karamazov, Ch. 73
"If there is no God, then I am God." The Possessed, Ch. 6 Frjohnwhiteford ( talk) 00:25, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Secondly, it is important to realise that Encyclopedia Britannica's relationship with the WCE is simply that the guy who did the latter's stats also did the EB's "review of the year" figures on religious affiliation. The EB does not in fact cite WCE's figures on "martyrdom".
To sum up: If this article has any legitimacy at all (debateable), then any figures it cites should come from from the historical consensus, not fringe sources. -- Dannyno ( talk) 17:17, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't think anyone is arguing that the article should contain no information on the fact that many people were killed in the name of the "militant atheist" communist/soviet state, and no one has (recently, at least) deleted this basic fact. But what has been deleted is excessive cataloguing of the evil deeds which goes far beyond what is clearly attributable to the "militant atheist" state, which brings the story to a historical point well beyond the end of anything going by the name of "militant atheism", and which is based on dubious sources. Let's mention it, but keep it in proportion to its place in this article (as opposed, for example, to Mass killings under Communist regimes), and let's also not lose sight of the other ways in which the phrase militant atheism is used. Or perhaps just turn the whole sorry mess back into a redirect to Antitheism. It's only a phrase, after all. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 14:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Sorry to disrupt the ongoing argument (which was mentioned at WP:AN/I, & led me to this article), but I'd like to make an edit which doesn't appear to touch on any topic under discussion: Would anyone object to adding a link in the "See also" section to anti-clericalism? I believe that subject is relevant to this one. -- llywrch ( talk) 21:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Spoon principle: We don't list all restaurants in the article " spoon" (or in the article " cook", but "spoon" is an inherently funny word, and is good for the name of the principle. )
List of all misdeeds of militant atheists of the Soviet Union belongs to the article
Religion in the Soviet Union (underdeveloiped, BTW), or, even better,
Persecution of religion in the Soviet Union. After filling this redlink, (it was a redlink at the moment of writing of this text) with the purpose to avoid
unnecessary duplication, the
wikipedia:Summary style advises that articles
Religion in the Soviet Union,
Militant atheism, and even
Vladimir Lenin, may have sections, variously titled, to match the logic of the text, which summarize the article
Persecution of religion in the Soviet Union and begin with template {{main|Persecution of religion in the Soviet Union}}.
Sorry I don't have enough time to write a nice essay to prove mu suggestion, but I hope this should satisfy all sides: both these who want this article to concentrate on the concept of "militant atheism" and these who want to show in full all possible consequences of this concept. - Altenmann >t 02:26, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Mr Guettarda your post reminds me of the problem of induction. In that the bad Christians and or theists get all of the force and exploitation of the anti-theist and get front page news. So the problem of induction says it is not a hard and fast rule if one bad apple can ruin the lot. Funny how the whole thing takes on a bizarre uniqueness when people try and apply the same standard used by the anti-theist to the anti-theist. And I wonder how an atheist activist like Mao Zedong should be represented here. There is a sequence in the movie Seven Years in Tibet, the one where the monks have made a Sandpainting on the floor in their temple. Of course if you've seen the movie you know what the Chinese soldier said to them when he destroyed it. That religion is the opiate of society. Funny how these concerns (like this one in that movie) seem to get treated as delusions. LoveMonkey ( talk) 15:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Sure, it's a derogatory label applied to Atheists who speak out about their beliefs. But beyond this, the literal breakdown of the phrase, to me, goes like this:
Militant = "competitive: showing a fighting disposition" (Source: Princeton.edu)
Atheism = Atheism can be either the rejection of theism, or the conviction that deities do not exist. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities. (source wikipedia)
Clearly, "Militant-Atheism" would mean someone who is a hostile atheist. However, what I think the main article fails to mention is that there is a difference between Atheism and Anti-Theism. Atheism is a BELIEF held in your mind (or in conversation, debate and literature). Anti-Theism while it's also a way of expressing a simple rejection to organized religion, it is also the active oppositional engagement with theism whether politically, economically, financially, or even physically (eg. Bible Burning). If Richard Dawkins engages in any of these forms, he's being militant but from what I've seen, he's not reached past discussion and public donations to scientific institutions. But hey, the militant-THEISTS guest list would, in my guess, be much longer simply due to the fact there are less Atheists in the world but there doesn't seem to be a Wikipedia page for Militant-Theist.
This whole article, in my opinion, attempts to smear other Atheists as if their being an Atheist had anything to do with religion or theism, when clearly ATHEISM is about [the lack of belief in] God... not a man-made theism. God and Religion are two separate things. Start there and the rest is easy. If you reject theism, you are a non-theist. If you don't believe in the existence of a deity, then you are an Atheist.
Militant-Atheism IS Anti-Theism. But it's just inappropriate labeling and to be honest, slightly hurtful to the average atheist. It would be similar to me (an American) calling every person who was born south of the United States a "Mexican" just because their skin is brown. This whole page is a disambiguation and, to me, it's not necessary. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
ItsText (
talk •
contribs)
02:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
May be it is a derogatory label in some contexts, but in the context of Communism, used by Communists, it was a label of pride. In fact, the whole idea of Communism is militant. There is no peaceful ways of transition from capitalism to communism in theoretical Communism. ItsText, I would suggest you not to do originsl resesrch trying to derive gthe meaning of the term "militant atheism" from the meanings of the separate words. In fact from the introduction of the term and until the demise of the Soviet Union the term "militant atheism" meant the active, propagating, "crusading" (pardon my oxymoron) atheism, which fiercely fights religion, rather than passive atheism, kinda, "uhm... there are no Gods. Are you saying there are? Well, good for you, I don't care." For example, Leo Taxil was a prominent case of fiercely militant atheist (wikipedia article sucks, but still you can see this). - Altenmann >t 06:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
This above tactics is one that has repeatedly been used to try to deny the obvious. This is unacceptable hairsplitting and a criteria no article could live up to as it is a fallacy (i.e. argument from silence). One, it denies that militant atheists would engage in antireligious, anticlerical and antitheism behavior (why is that?). Two it insists that these ideas are distinct, different and share no commonality and are separate and have no relation. Three, it implies that by insisting that the concepts are different separate and share no common ground then unless data and sourcing meet this strict and narrow criteria of being word exactly how this editor wants(who is not basing this criteria on wikipedia policy) then this editor by their criteria, not wikipedias, will continue to not allow any of the datas inclusion. LoveMonkey ( talk) 21:06, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
After reading this talk page and the article itself, here is another thing to be done: the article must clearly distinguish two usages of the term: the usage in its direct meaning, and the pejorative usage. First of all, the intro definition must not contain any judgements (pejorative or not), just a definition. The second sentence must address the two aspects of the usage, with refernces (from scholarly treatments of thye subject, not just quotations of the usage). Accordingly, there must be two major sections devoted to the two meanings, each of them may have their own structure: history, per country,etc.
Rationale: the word "communist" may be used in these two meanings in exactly the same way: communists use it with pride, while their opponents insult each other by calling each other "communists" due to minor shift in left-right-wingedness. Nevertheless, we don't write in the intro of " communism" that the main meaning of the word "communist" is pejorative, despite the fact that the "mainstream usage" is pejorative: I bet there is ratio of 1000:1 for non-communists:communists.
In addition, the coatrack section must be treated similarly to WP:TRIVIA rules. Significant cases must be insorporated into smooth text. Trivial utterances, like, "John Doe called Jane Nobody militant atheistess", must go: they add nothing to understanding of the concept, unless these facts are used in scholarly sources as an illustration of some details of the topic. - Altenmann >t 07:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
(←) Hmmm. There are surely different connotations, and the precise words used in the neutral definition may slant things one way or the other – that's the problem as I see it, but I'm sure it's not insurmountable. I assume you mean the "pejorative" idea should not be in the lead sentence, rather than that it should not be in the lead paragraph/section. Perhaps we should rough out some possible wordings. I wonder whether the lead sentences of this version or this one (both from almost three years ago) might have something to offer. Here is a suggested revised opening (stripped of references and wikilinks), plus an outline of the way the article could be structured:
I have included the "pejorative" comment in the lead because I think it helps to make sense of the counter-use of the term as a badge of honour. Any comments? SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 12:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)