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More disruptive editing from Stupidus Maximus ( talk · contribs). The whole biography section lacks sourcing. Evidently, Stupidus must have had some source, but he isn't telling us about it. That's almost worse than writing on the basis of no source at all. Why did he do it: maybe because, as before, he's been plagiarising it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Are you saying that orthodox Bulgarians, Serbians, Armenians etc were Greeks? Don't bother to answer. Greek meaned orthodox christian, speaking Greek and prefering to be referred to as Greek. Bua's main language was Greek. Sources at hand.--
Euzen (
talk)
07:51, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
And when sources are added, they get deleted if they spoil the albanian soup.
Read this article by Maria-Luisa Ricciardi who studied the history of Bua in original sources and believes that he was Greek from Epirus. Ricciardi Maria Luisa (1989) Lorenzo Lotto: Il Gentiluome della Galleria Borghese, Artibus et Historiae, vol. 10, No 19, pp.85-106. Available through JSTOR. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Euzen (
talk •
contribs)
09:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Zjarri.. is either pretending or he never read that source. Lotto did not write anything. We are not even sure that this painting depicts M. Bua. The article is written by Ricciardi based on sources like the Diaries of Marco Sanudo and others. Can someone stop this aggression?-- Euzen ( talk) 14:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Let's see then if WP understands "Greek" of 15th c. as "orthodox Albanian" (sources please) and if information can be deleted on users' personal assumptions of what "Greek" means. This paragraph will be reverted soon. In the meanwhile please find the time to read the publication by Ricciardi. Fut.P is also requested to express his opinion on what "Greek" means and, if he doesn't mind, to asure us that he has no conflict of interest in articles related to Albania. Let me btw express here my personal opinion that in Middle Ages "Albanian" meaned "person born in the geographical area of Albania", although I don't think that WP articles should be modified in line with my opinion. I propose mediation. State here if you agree.-- Euzen ( talk) 17:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Let's apply the same argument on "Albanians" of other articles, e.g. Skanderbeg. You agree on mediation or not?-- Euzen ( talk) 19:44, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
The article of Maria Luisa Ricciardi (1989) is not an art critique but a historical investigation attempting to find out who is the "Gentilhuomo" of Lotto's painting. The "15th century diary" is a Venetian archive. Shall we assume that Bua's "Albanianness" is based on more serious sources?-- Euzen ( talk) 09:03, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
[3]. The passage from the Florange mémoirs is utterly unsuitable for two reasons: (1) it's apparently about a different person altogether. The guy Florange talks about is one Mercurio Rona, who was in the service of the King of France in 1507. I'm not seeing any evidence that he was related to our Bua (except if it's a misspelling – I'm now finding yet other references to one "Mercurio Bira", who seems to be the same guy as the "Rona" [4] [5].) (2) It's a primary source from the 16th century, hence unsuitable about a claim about what authors "consider" to be the case in the present tense; (3) If there's anything we should all have learned by now, it is the fact that "being Greek" and "being Albanian" weren't considered mutually exclusive properties prior to the late 19th century. It logically follows from that that any statement made by a pre-19th-century author – and here we are talking about somebody writing in the mid-16th century! – that calls a person either "A." or "G." cannot be used as a reference for a claim in the article that is couched in terms of a "dispute" involving an exclusive dichotomy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
The coordinated reaction of two user-names does not add credibility to the argument.
-- Euzen ( talk) 07:18, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
In this case you wouldn't object adding that "According to (Ricciardi, Sathas) he was Greek". This would also distanciate you from the "everybody is albanian" team. --
Euzen (
talk)
09:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Good effort, Mr Perfect. Some uneducated will buy this. You have the advandage of not having many notable persons to promote in WP and you press "undue weight" by war-editing around the word "Albanian". The fact is that there is no credible information that his family was "Albanian" or that M.B. was speaking Albanian or was fealing Albanian in ethnicity. Invercely, it is obvious that he was Greek speaker and his name is Greek, from the word "vous", a common part of many Greek and Serbian names (e.g.
Bo-ioannes, Bu-janic etc).
If you discover an notable person that is real "Albanian" let us know.--
Euzen (
talk)
07:51, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
The fact that M.B. was born in Greece doesn't make him Greek, that is to say a cat born in a kennel is a dog! Shpata is an Albanian name, and as all the Greeks here on the rabid race to deny everything Albanian already know, Greece was inhabited by Albanians already from the 10th century, who became a majority already in the 15th-16th century, as Ottoman defters, as well as countless travelers, CLEARLY show. So Greek-style lexical chicaneries and philosophy won't change that simple historical fact!! Etimo ( talk) 22:26, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
Spatha is a greek name, btw, from the ancient greek Σπάθη (sword) [6]. It became a surname after the byzantine official "σπαθάριος" [7]. Have a nice day.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 18:33, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
According to this source, there was also a Mercurio Bua who was active about half a century later than this one, during the " War of the Three Henrys" of 1587. Who can say more? This one too is described as a commander of Albanian/Stradioti mercenaries. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
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Mercurio Bua was a member of the Albanian Bua family who settled in Nauplia, they were not Greek. – Βατο ( talk) 11:02, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
ancestors migrated from Albania nearly 2 centuries agoas something with functional meaning you have to put forward something which contradicts the fact that his father was Peter Bua. It's a hard fact. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:07, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
both sides (Greek vs Albanian) have arguments to presentno, you have not hisotrical documentation for your claim, you base it just on myths. – Βατο ( talk) 18:31, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
It appears that [ [9]] the specific additon isn't supported by the correspondent citation:
Koronaios used as the language of his stradiot protagonist greghesco, a mixed Greek-Venetian variant which was employed in satirical plays of the 16th century in Venice
Their action is etched in the memory of the stradiots themselves. This is deduced, for example, from the epic poem Ανδραγαθ΄πηματα Μερκούριου Μπούα (La gesta de Mercurio Bua), composed in 1519 by the stradioti from Zante Tzane Koroneos. In this he hymned the deeds of his celebrated coleague Mercurio Bua from Napoli di Romania, who had served under the flag of Venice, of France, and the Holy Roman Empire. The adventures of the stradiots are likewise etched in the Venetian collective memory, through their penetration into Venetian dialect comedy (commedia dialettale). Since this is a comedy ofmorals, space was given in it to foreigners who gravitated to Venice for mainly professional reasons. The incomers spoke various languages and brought with them their own way of life. Time and again, we see in a series of sixteenth-century plays a cultivation of a Greek Venetian idiom, the so-called greghesso..
Il manoscritto dell’opera, composta da Tzane Koroneos ed ultimata presumibilmente nel 1519[10] Yet it's a fair point that there is a lack of direct link in the source. I will remove it for now and expand it again later.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 16:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
While I don't think anyone disputes he was of Albanian parentage,
WP:MOSETHNICITY states The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.
I don't see this requirement satisfied here. He is primarily notable as a Venetian condottiere, and having spent most of his life in Greece he would have been largely Hellenized. Furthermore, people back then did not identify with a particular nationality as they do now. I thus think it would be best to leave ethnicity out of the lede. Khirurg ( talk) 18:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
was proud for his Greek originsis not written in that poem - a poem by a Greek author written for a specific audience. It's WP:PRIMARY but what Alexikoua is putting forward is not mentioned in bibliography. It's WP:FRINGE to search for keywords and put forward a narrative based on them. I searched the Stradioti/Condotierri database and I found in the listing of Greek stradioti captain Andrea Mauresi:
Nel veronese, per controllare i movimenti degli avversari. Con Mercurio Bua (80 stradiotti e 100 cavalli leggeri coadiuvati da molti contadini) sconfigge a Frassine 100 cavalli; cattura Alfonso di Carvajal con 40 cavalli spagnoli. Si reca a Venezia con lettere del capitano generale Bartolomeo d’Alviano e dei provveditori generali; in Collegio dichiara che gli stradiotti greci non sono affatto inferiori a quelli di etnia albanese comandati da Mercurio Bua e che i suoi stradiotti vogliono una provvigione. Il doge Leonardo Loredan è largo di promesse e lo rimanda a Padova per la rassegna.Andrea Mauresi, a Greek stradioti captain, in 1513, complained to the Venetian administration about the wages of the Greek stradioti who were paid less although they were in no way inferior to the Albanian stradioti commanded by Mercurio Bua. What more should bibliography and archival material highlight about Mercurio Bua for the lede to call him an Albanian? Alexikoua is searching for keywords and then he's using them without any functional historical meaning as a means to devalue hard facts. @ Khirurg: If someone searches for Krokodeilos Kladas + Albanian they will find several sources that call him Albanian but responsible use of bibliography highlights that the hard historical facts don't confirm the use of the term Albanian as a term for ethnicity or cultural identity. Alexikoua's methodology is that of someone who would search for Kladas + Albanian and then ask from the community to not call Kladas Greek because
there are sources that call him AlbanianIt's very bad use of bibliography. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 20:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
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More disruptive editing from Stupidus Maximus ( talk · contribs). The whole biography section lacks sourcing. Evidently, Stupidus must have had some source, but he isn't telling us about it. That's almost worse than writing on the basis of no source at all. Why did he do it: maybe because, as before, he's been plagiarising it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Are you saying that orthodox Bulgarians, Serbians, Armenians etc were Greeks? Don't bother to answer. Greek meaned orthodox christian, speaking Greek and prefering to be referred to as Greek. Bua's main language was Greek. Sources at hand.--
Euzen (
talk)
07:51, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
And when sources are added, they get deleted if they spoil the albanian soup.
Read this article by Maria-Luisa Ricciardi who studied the history of Bua in original sources and believes that he was Greek from Epirus. Ricciardi Maria Luisa (1989) Lorenzo Lotto: Il Gentiluome della Galleria Borghese, Artibus et Historiae, vol. 10, No 19, pp.85-106. Available through JSTOR. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Euzen (
talk •
contribs)
09:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Zjarri.. is either pretending or he never read that source. Lotto did not write anything. We are not even sure that this painting depicts M. Bua. The article is written by Ricciardi based on sources like the Diaries of Marco Sanudo and others. Can someone stop this aggression?-- Euzen ( talk) 14:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Let's see then if WP understands "Greek" of 15th c. as "orthodox Albanian" (sources please) and if information can be deleted on users' personal assumptions of what "Greek" means. This paragraph will be reverted soon. In the meanwhile please find the time to read the publication by Ricciardi. Fut.P is also requested to express his opinion on what "Greek" means and, if he doesn't mind, to asure us that he has no conflict of interest in articles related to Albania. Let me btw express here my personal opinion that in Middle Ages "Albanian" meaned "person born in the geographical area of Albania", although I don't think that WP articles should be modified in line with my opinion. I propose mediation. State here if you agree.-- Euzen ( talk) 17:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Let's apply the same argument on "Albanians" of other articles, e.g. Skanderbeg. You agree on mediation or not?-- Euzen ( talk) 19:44, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
The article of Maria Luisa Ricciardi (1989) is not an art critique but a historical investigation attempting to find out who is the "Gentilhuomo" of Lotto's painting. The "15th century diary" is a Venetian archive. Shall we assume that Bua's "Albanianness" is based on more serious sources?-- Euzen ( talk) 09:03, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
[3]. The passage from the Florange mémoirs is utterly unsuitable for two reasons: (1) it's apparently about a different person altogether. The guy Florange talks about is one Mercurio Rona, who was in the service of the King of France in 1507. I'm not seeing any evidence that he was related to our Bua (except if it's a misspelling – I'm now finding yet other references to one "Mercurio Bira", who seems to be the same guy as the "Rona" [4] [5].) (2) It's a primary source from the 16th century, hence unsuitable about a claim about what authors "consider" to be the case in the present tense; (3) If there's anything we should all have learned by now, it is the fact that "being Greek" and "being Albanian" weren't considered mutually exclusive properties prior to the late 19th century. It logically follows from that that any statement made by a pre-19th-century author – and here we are talking about somebody writing in the mid-16th century! – that calls a person either "A." or "G." cannot be used as a reference for a claim in the article that is couched in terms of a "dispute" involving an exclusive dichotomy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
The coordinated reaction of two user-names does not add credibility to the argument.
-- Euzen ( talk) 07:18, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
In this case you wouldn't object adding that "According to (Ricciardi, Sathas) he was Greek". This would also distanciate you from the "everybody is albanian" team. --
Euzen (
talk)
09:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Good effort, Mr Perfect. Some uneducated will buy this. You have the advandage of not having many notable persons to promote in WP and you press "undue weight" by war-editing around the word "Albanian". The fact is that there is no credible information that his family was "Albanian" or that M.B. was speaking Albanian or was fealing Albanian in ethnicity. Invercely, it is obvious that he was Greek speaker and his name is Greek, from the word "vous", a common part of many Greek and Serbian names (e.g.
Bo-ioannes, Bu-janic etc).
If you discover an notable person that is real "Albanian" let us know.--
Euzen (
talk)
07:51, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
The fact that M.B. was born in Greece doesn't make him Greek, that is to say a cat born in a kennel is a dog! Shpata is an Albanian name, and as all the Greeks here on the rabid race to deny everything Albanian already know, Greece was inhabited by Albanians already from the 10th century, who became a majority already in the 15th-16th century, as Ottoman defters, as well as countless travelers, CLEARLY show. So Greek-style lexical chicaneries and philosophy won't change that simple historical fact!! Etimo ( talk) 22:26, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
Spatha is a greek name, btw, from the ancient greek Σπάθη (sword) [6]. It became a surname after the byzantine official "σπαθάριος" [7]. Have a nice day.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 18:33, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
According to this source, there was also a Mercurio Bua who was active about half a century later than this one, during the " War of the Three Henrys" of 1587. Who can say more? This one too is described as a commander of Albanian/Stradioti mercenaries. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Mercurio Bua. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Mercurio Bua was a member of the Albanian Bua family who settled in Nauplia, they were not Greek. – Βατο ( talk) 11:02, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
ancestors migrated from Albania nearly 2 centuries agoas something with functional meaning you have to put forward something which contradicts the fact that his father was Peter Bua. It's a hard fact. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:07, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
both sides (Greek vs Albanian) have arguments to presentno, you have not hisotrical documentation for your claim, you base it just on myths. – Βατο ( talk) 18:31, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
It appears that [ [9]] the specific additon isn't supported by the correspondent citation:
Koronaios used as the language of his stradiot protagonist greghesco, a mixed Greek-Venetian variant which was employed in satirical plays of the 16th century in Venice
Their action is etched in the memory of the stradiots themselves. This is deduced, for example, from the epic poem Ανδραγαθ΄πηματα Μερκούριου Μπούα (La gesta de Mercurio Bua), composed in 1519 by the stradioti from Zante Tzane Koroneos. In this he hymned the deeds of his celebrated coleague Mercurio Bua from Napoli di Romania, who had served under the flag of Venice, of France, and the Holy Roman Empire. The adventures of the stradiots are likewise etched in the Venetian collective memory, through their penetration into Venetian dialect comedy (commedia dialettale). Since this is a comedy ofmorals, space was given in it to foreigners who gravitated to Venice for mainly professional reasons. The incomers spoke various languages and brought with them their own way of life. Time and again, we see in a series of sixteenth-century plays a cultivation of a Greek Venetian idiom, the so-called greghesso..
Il manoscritto dell’opera, composta da Tzane Koroneos ed ultimata presumibilmente nel 1519[10] Yet it's a fair point that there is a lack of direct link in the source. I will remove it for now and expand it again later.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 16:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
While I don't think anyone disputes he was of Albanian parentage,
WP:MOSETHNICITY states The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.
I don't see this requirement satisfied here. He is primarily notable as a Venetian condottiere, and having spent most of his life in Greece he would have been largely Hellenized. Furthermore, people back then did not identify with a particular nationality as they do now. I thus think it would be best to leave ethnicity out of the lede. Khirurg ( talk) 18:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
was proud for his Greek originsis not written in that poem - a poem by a Greek author written for a specific audience. It's WP:PRIMARY but what Alexikoua is putting forward is not mentioned in bibliography. It's WP:FRINGE to search for keywords and put forward a narrative based on them. I searched the Stradioti/Condotierri database and I found in the listing of Greek stradioti captain Andrea Mauresi:
Nel veronese, per controllare i movimenti degli avversari. Con Mercurio Bua (80 stradiotti e 100 cavalli leggeri coadiuvati da molti contadini) sconfigge a Frassine 100 cavalli; cattura Alfonso di Carvajal con 40 cavalli spagnoli. Si reca a Venezia con lettere del capitano generale Bartolomeo d’Alviano e dei provveditori generali; in Collegio dichiara che gli stradiotti greci non sono affatto inferiori a quelli di etnia albanese comandati da Mercurio Bua e che i suoi stradiotti vogliono una provvigione. Il doge Leonardo Loredan è largo di promesse e lo rimanda a Padova per la rassegna.Andrea Mauresi, a Greek stradioti captain, in 1513, complained to the Venetian administration about the wages of the Greek stradioti who were paid less although they were in no way inferior to the Albanian stradioti commanded by Mercurio Bua. What more should bibliography and archival material highlight about Mercurio Bua for the lede to call him an Albanian? Alexikoua is searching for keywords and then he's using them without any functional historical meaning as a means to devalue hard facts. @ Khirurg: If someone searches for Krokodeilos Kladas + Albanian they will find several sources that call him Albanian but responsible use of bibliography highlights that the hard historical facts don't confirm the use of the term Albanian as a term for ethnicity or cultural identity. Alexikoua's methodology is that of someone who would search for Kladas + Albanian and then ask from the community to not call Kladas Greek because
there are sources that call him AlbanianIt's very bad use of bibliography. -- Maleschreiber ( talk) 20:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)