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At around 62k this article is now weighing in around or above what is probably the acceptable limit. It may be a problem for a future GA nomination, we'll need to look and see what can be pruned / made more concise.-- cjllw | TALK 08:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Erm, is there any interest in converting Image:Mayan Language Tree in colour.png into a table, with individual entries wikilinked? It'd be a pain, but I'm thinking it's doable. I also think it would be kinda handy. -- Ling.Nut 19:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
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Alternate version of clickable table. Can add colors. Sometimes doesn't load completely (?) so reload:
Proto-Mayan | Huastecan Branch |
Wastek | ||||
Chiomuceltec | ||||||
Yucatecan Branch | ||||||
Yucatec (Maya) | ||||||
Mopan | ||||||
Itza' | ||||||
Lakantun | ||||||
Western Branch | Ch'olan | Ch'ol Proper | Chontal | |||
Ch'ol | ||||||
Ch'orti' | ||||||
Tzeltalan | Tzeltal | |||||
Tzotzil | ||||||
Q'anjobalan | Chujean | Chuj | ||||
Tojolab'al | ||||||
Q'anjobalan Proper | Q'anjob'al | |||||
Akatek | ||||||
Jakaltek(Popti') | ||||||
Mocho' | ||||||
Eastern Branch | Mamean | Mamean | Mam | |||
Tekiteko | ||||||
Ixilean | Ixil | |||||
Awakatek | ||||||
Quichean | Uspantek | |||||
Quichean Proper | ||||||
Kaqchikel | ||||||
Tz'utujil | ||||||
K'iche' | ||||||
Sakapultek | ||||||
Sipakapense | ||||||
Achi | ||||||
Poqom | Poqomchi' | |||||
Poqomam | ||||||
Q'eqchi' |
-- Ling.Nut 04:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Maunus, ptcamn, cjllwright (and others I may not yet have met):
Y'all are the Mayan folks. :-) Y'all decide whether you want the version ptcamn made, the one I made, or neither. His is a bit more perspicuous, I think; mine takes up a bit less vertical real estate and could potentially include colored cells. Later! -- Ling.Nut 16:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
~2000 BC | ~1000 BC | 1 AD | ~1000 AD | ~2000 AD | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Wastek | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Chiomuceltec
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Yucatec (Maya) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Mopan | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Itza' | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Lakantun | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Chontal | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Ch'ol
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Ch'orti'
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Tzeltal | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Tzotzil
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Chuj | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Tojolab'al
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Q'anjob'al | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Akatek | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Jakaltek (Popti')
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Mocho'
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Mam | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Tekiteko
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Ixil | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Awakatek
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Q'eqchi' | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Uspantek | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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K'iche' | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Achi
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Kaqchikel | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Tz'utujil | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Sakapultek | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Sipakapense | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Poqomchi | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Poqomam
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~2000 BC | ~1000 BC | 1 AD | ~1000 AD | ~2000 AD |
Regarding making this clickable, I'm not sure it's worth the work, not only to set it up but also to maintain it. The separate languages are clickable within the article itself, and the general policy is to link the word only once within the article. So, anyway, where are we at here?? Last I checked, I was going to rework the table to put the chronology along the horizontal axis, keeping the "curly brackets". Is this OK? Madman 21:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
As mentioned, I'e been thinking about re-doing the Migration map (as beautiful as it is). I have begun work but I am confused. The Migration map's arrow shows "Proto-Cholan" moving southeast (toward the Atlantic coast) but when I look at the language distribution map, I see Ch'ol and almost all of the other Western Branches, except Cho'rti', being closer to the old Olmec heartland area. Perhaps the Migration Map's "Proto-Cholan" should be "Proto-Cho'rti'"?? Any insight? Madman 23:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Its most important information is as follows:
DO you think you can work this into something decent Madman? ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 13:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Per discussion on my talk pg, it is probably time to give the FA nom for this a shot. Maybe 1 or 2 things to determine before proceeding:
It would also be good to ensure that once nominated the major contributors Maunus, Homunq, Madman et al are generally available at the time to address any concerns which might be forthcoming. Anyone else got final comments?-- cjllw | TALK 03:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Here's a rather obvious question. The infobox prominently lists Mayance as an alternate name for the language family (it almost looks like it's ment to be a superfamily) but the text doesn't mention it at all, only commenting on the Maya/Mayan debate. A quick google search shows that it is a real term but little used. [1] calls it a failed proposal. I'll see if I can track down a reliable source but it should probably be in the text as well as (or even rather than) bolded in the infobox. Eluchil404 07:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Maunus, you removed the following:
The wide influence of the Mayan culture and languages during this period is demonstrated by the etymology of the English word " hurricane". At the root of "hurricane" is the name of a Classic Mayan deity associated with tempests called Jun Raqan "one leg"; [1] but the word came into English indirectly, probably through Carib via Spanish. This suggests that Classic Maya traders had spread their influence beyond Mesoamerica to the Caribbean region.
...I agree it's unsourced, so fine; but I liked it, so I'm leaving it here in case anyone can find the source on it. -- Homunq 02:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
References
The article states that in K'iche'an-Mamean, [ŋ] became [x]. However, in the table on the evolution of [tʲaʔŋ], Mam, K'iche', and Kaqchikel were shown as having "X" for Proto-Mayan [ŋ], which I had interpreted as a uvular fricative, and changed to [χ] accordingly...is this incorrect? What's the story here? -- Miskwito 22:01, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
While I'm asking questions, I'll also point out two things in the Morphosyntactic Alignment tables that caught my eye:
Thanks in advance, -- Miskwito 22:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
This article is undergoing review for FA status. One reviewer has suggested that it needs copyediting. Any help would be appreciated. -- Homunq 00:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I've never heard tonal Tzotzil... where is that dialect? Also, I've been told by various people that Mam is tonal, yet that's not mentioned. -- Homunq 14:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I won't add it myself since I don't have a source for it, but it should probably be noted somewhere that the names of several of the Mayan languages (Acatec, Aguacatec, Chicomuceltec, Huastec, Jacaltec, Sacapultec, Tectitec, Uspantec, and probably Yucatec) are actually Nahuatl, and what the Mayan names for them are (e.g. Huastec speakers call their language Tenek, etc.) -- Ptcamn 06:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we make the reflist smaller and possibly into two columns? ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 21:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I was gonna edit this article some, perhaps adding cquotes (the big blue quotation marks which I think are extremely visually appealing, but some folks snobbishly refer to as "cartoon quotes") for a long quotation, but since it's FAC I'll let its dedicated editors make the call. :-) Portions of this quote look useful to me:
“ | In the recent Mayan cultural activism, maintenance of Mayan languages has been promoted in an attempt to support "unified Mayan identity" (Fischer and Brown 1996). However, there is a complex array of perceptions about Mayan language and identity among Mayans who I researched in Momostenango, a highland Mayan community in Guatemala. On the one hand, Mayans denigrate K’iche’ and have doubts about its potential to continue as a viable language because the command of Spanish is an economic and political necessity. On the other hand, they do recognize the value of Mayan language when they wish to claim the ‘authentic Mayan identity’. It is this conflation of conflicting and ambivalent ideologies that inform language choice... | ” |
Lather, rinse, repeat: I dunno what you do or don't want in article, so will post q's that look useful here on talk page:
“ | "In the words of a Mayan leader:'Guatemala is culturally a nation, but it is politically divided, atomized, so that all the indigenous people in Guatemala are Maya, and so is their collective memory. We are alive, but we need symbols because we do not have a community yet since the government divided us as Mayan people' (Cojtí 1991) [Note from Ling.Nut:This should perhaps be Cojtí Cuxil 1991] The term Maya is problematic because Mayan peoples do not constitute a homogenous identity. Maya, rather, has become a strategy of self-representation for the Mayan movements and its followers. The Academia de Lenguas Mayas de Guatemala (ALMG) finds twenty-one distinct Mayan languages" (Fabri 2003:61 n1). | ” |
Hey: you guys said ALMG formed in '96; this says '86:
[BOOK] The Maya Tropical Forest: People, Parks and Ancient Cities
JD Nations - 2006 - ... The Academia de Lenguas Mayas de Guatemala (ALMG), formed in Guatemala in 1986, is dedicated to the preservation and revitalization of Maya languages. ...
-- Ling.Nut 21:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
(undent) Maunus, I emailed you a note/ref 'cause I couldn't edit wikipedia, but now it seems to be working, so I added them to the article. Have a look at the note about Grenoble & Whaley (I think it's #14) to see if it fits the article's needs. Cheers! -- Ling.Nut 00:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The notes are small, but then the refs sections has normal text size again... would smaller look better? Something like this would work:
<div id="articlerefs" style="width:100%;font-size:85%">
</div>
The construction of this section bothers me. First it relies on the opinions of a small number of linguists to present a simplified, uncontested, story of the evolution and divergence of the many maya languages. I see too much of a reliance on the SIL (throught the ethnologue.com references) idea of how languages relate without any acknowledgement that much of this is contested by other scholars. The one that got me, though, was the statement, attributed to Lyle Campbell, that the Maya languages dominated the Xinca and Lenca because loan words flowed from Maya to these languages. Gee, loan words indicate contact and do not by themselves indicate domination. Rsheptak 19:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I dunno about the recent inclusion of a brief mention about this Mayan-lang. historical doc in the text. Partly since it's more relevant to something like Mesoamerican literature, but mostly because its authenticity (as a genuine and faithful copy of some earlier doc and oral history) has been open to dispute. While it may or may not be genuine, it would probably take up too much unwarranted space here to go into an explanation of it. I think we should have an article on this doc (although the present version needs complete rewriting as it is taken from another site, even if the site's author and the article's are one and the same), but given its unclear status I'd rather not see it rolled into other articles on equal footing as (say) the Popol Vuh.-- cjllw | TALK 03:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
(Under "Yucatecan branch":) "It has a rich post-colonial literature, and remains common as the first and even second language in rural areas in Yucatán."
First of all, shouldn't it be something like "remains common as the second and sometimes even the first language in rural areas..." since the sentence seems to be trying to prove how dominant the language is in its region. You wouldn't say something is first, even second if you were trying to prove how awesome it is... Would you? It seems very odd to me.
Second of all, there's no source for it.
Maybe this info is in another source in the article, but it needs the citation next to it. I'm just too afraid to alter anything in a featured article on a subject I can only barely begin to understand. Grand master ka 09:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm surprised that neither Yuri Knorosov nor Tatiana Proskouriakoff are mentioned in the article. Just another anti-Russian conspiracy, I suppose... :) -- Ghirla -трёп- 06:45, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Why aren't featured articles freaking protected?
Do you think that Wikipedia:Main Page featured article protection should be redrafted or not? Please help form consensus at Wikipedia talk:Main Page featured article protection#Consensus. DrKay 09:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Someone put a {{check}} template ("verification needed") in the "Core Quichean" section. I was going to remove it, but then I poked around a bit on Ethnologue. I couldn't find Quetzaltenango listed with these languages; only with Southern Mam. Y'all would know better than I would... Ling.Nut 17:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
The color coding in this article needs to conform with Wikipedia:MOS#Color coding. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, there is a good reason why the references are formatted that way. Ironically, it's to make it easier for a reader to identify a particular entry in a lengthy bibliographical listing. For much the same reasons that we use spacesinbetweenwords, paragraphs to break up slabs of text, and why we offset/indent successive comments on talk pages: so that it is easier to pick out where one conceptual unit ends and other begins. Most of the citations here run longer than a single line, and would not be readily differentiated one from the other without some visual cue.
You do not read a bibliography in the same way as you read 'normal' paragraphs of text- the object of a bibliography is to be able to find and identify a given reference. Take a look at any non-fiction book that you may have, that contains a bibliography- I practically guarantee you that it will be formatted by some sort of typographical device —hanging indents, caps, bolding, positioning & spacing, or some combination of these— in such a way that (a) each entry is visually distinct, and (b) the identifying keywords the reader will be looking for (ie, primarily authors' names) can be picked out from the sorted list. Using caps (actually, they are Smallcaps) to highlight keywords obviously serves a different purpose and does not carry the same meaning as when it is done in a NORMAL SENTENCE, like THIS.
There are limitations to what can be achieved through wiki formatting options without making the coding too complicated, and differences in appearance browser-to-browser that exist anyway; may not be a perfect solution, but no one format is going to please everyone. -- cjllw ʘ TALK 04:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Nahuatl#Stylistics is a good section, most of the phenomena it describes are applicable to Mayan languages as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.175.189 ( talk) 20:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Nahuatl#Stylistics is a good section, most of the phenomena it describes are applicable to Mayan languages as well. It would also be interesting to know if this style predates the Aztec or is their contribution to the Mesoamerican Linguistic Area - I'd suspect the former, given the prevalence in colonial Mayan literature, but I know nothing of mayan epigraphics so I cannot say for sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.175.189 ( talk) 20:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
The Mayan Languages- A Comparative Vocabulary, by John Dienhart, is a compilation of over 400 years of Mayan dictionaries in around 30 languages, with over 45,000 entries. I have just gotten explicit permission from Kristina Dienhart, the daughter of John Dienhart, and from a representative of Southern Denmark University, the copyright owner, to use this data, which exists in electronic form, under CC-BY-SA or GFDL. My intention is to massage this data into usable form (for instance, update the orthography); upload it to OmegaWiki; and create pedagogical material such that it can be used (edited) in primary-school classrooms, especially with XO computers. I hope that 1500 of these computers will soon be in the hands of mostly K'iche' students in Totonicapan, and that hundreds will be in Mayan areas in Belize and Mexico.
I am a programmer and a teacher, not a professional mayanist by any stretch of the imagination, but some of you may remember me from back when Maya languages reached FA. I would love the help of anyone knowledgeable about Mayan linguistics, especially the Mexican Mayan languages, about which I know less than the Guatemalan ones. I would also be especially happy if someone could help me find funding for all or part of this work (I'm happy to work for Guatemalan programmer wages, in the range of $1000-$1500 a month; this project could be anywhere from 2 to 6 months, depending on scope). If you or someone you know would be able to help me, please get in touch with me via "email this user".
Thank you,
Homunq ( talk) 05:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
(cross-posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mesoamerica)
The ISO codes for the regional dialects of a given language name were decimated. See talk there for details. Homunq ( talk) 05:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
I have used the List of Mayan languages to create the new template of Mayan languages at the bottom of the page. Do you think it will be alright since it is based on the page previously mentioned? — Iudæus ( talk) 23:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
The use of the phrase "Ixil Triangle" is frowned upon by the residents of the Ixil Community. That is the proper terminology in this recently bloody region. The name "Ixil Triangle" is one given by the outside world of the Guatemalan Central government of the time and its paramilitary troops who raided and indiscriminately killed members of nearly every family.
The proper usage and proper designation of this section and all that refer to it (such as Mayan Languages) should use the proper term, Ixil Community.
Also the use of "Maya" (singular, plural, masculine, feminine) to designate a person or persons is preferable to using "Mayan" as in "The Maya have 21 known variants of Mayan languages" where Mayan is used only as an adjective. This is a small matter of respect for the Maya. Terrydarc ( talk) 03:59, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The article Chan Santa Cruz had some good content added but it uses old Mayan orthography that needs to be updated. This assists in making wiki links more simple and reliable and prevents the creation of multiple new pages for the different spellings. Some of you have the skills so please go to it. -- YakbutterT ( talk) 23:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I reverted AmericanGringo's edits to because the previous description of the distinction between the usage of Mayan (used only in linguistics) and Maya used in oher fields among them Anthropology (and notably also as an adjective) was more precise. Also he changed Belize with Honduras there are many more maya speakers in Belize than in Honduras (I assume you are referring to the dwindling speakers of Chorti'?) - but both could be mentioned. Also your statement about 31 maya languages was contradictory since guatemala recognizes 21 and mexico 8. We are only referring to luving langauges so cholti and chicomuceltec don't count. ·Maunus·ƛ· 16:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I just came across this paper [3] (if the site is still down you may be able to view a google cache here). I just skimmed it briefly (in machine translation I must admit) but the gist is clear: Robertson and Houston argue that Wastek was not the first Mayan language to branch off as a separate family and should instead be grouped with the "Western" languages of Ch'olan and Tzeltalan. I saw the paper after seeing it cited aspprovingly here. If it has some currency it should probably be mentioned in the article as an alternate theory but I don't have a good feel for how well known or respected it is in the field, so I am not sure of the best way to express it in the article. Eluchil404 ( talk) 04:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Anyone have a good source on the colonial alphabets? It would be nice to have a table of the main variants, like we do for modern. I added a few words in the hope that s.o. will expand it. — kwami ( talk) 02:50, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Populations have risen quite abit as shown in this table inserted into the article of 2012 speaker numbers. However the table contradicts the rest of the article and List of Mayan languages. We should update all of the articles speaker numbers so that there isn't any internal contradiction. Also we should use a table format that floats to the right so we don't break the page formatting. ·ʍaunus· snunɐw· 12:30, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Language | Number of speakers (2012) |
---|---|
K’iche’ | 2,330,000 |
Yucatec | 1,202,000 |
Q’eqchi’ | 823,500 |
Mam | 537,980 |
Kaqchikel | 451,000 |
Tzeltal | 372,000 |
Tzotzil | 330,000 |
Chol | 145,000 |
Ixil language | 135,000 |
Huastec | 131,000 |
Jakaltek | 100,000 |
Poqomchi’ | 92,200 |
Achi | 85,600 |
Tz’utujil | 84,000 |
Q’anjob’al | 77,700 |
Akatek | 60,000 |
Chuj | 50,000 |
Poqomam | 49,000 |
Chontal | 38,500 |
Tojolabal | 34,300 |
Ch’orti’ | 30,010 |
Awakateko | 18,000 |
Sakapultek | 15,000 |
Mopan | 14,200 |
Sipakapa | 8,000 |
Tektitek | 6,000 |
Uspanteko | 3,000 |
Lacandon | 1,000+ |
Mocho’ | 170 |
Itza’ | 12 |
The population of Jakaltek has been reduced by a factor of ten between E16 and E17. I thought this was an error, that the two ISO codes were merged without merging the populations, but evidently the number was changed after merging. Maybe one of the E16 figures spurious? — kwami ( talk) 21:11, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Hofling (2008) reports 9,000–12,000 native Mopan Maya speakers. Ethnologue says "9,200 in Belize (2006). Population total all countries: 14,200." Actually Hofling's specific quote is: "In Guatemala, Mopan speakers number between three and four thousand, according to the statistics gathered by the Mopan branch of the Academia de Lenguas Mayas de Guatemala (ALMG pers. comm. 2008). The population in Belize is larger, perhaps six to eight thousand (Grimes 2000)." I wonder why Ethnologue's estimates are so much higher. Kaldari ( talk) 03:09, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Hofling's Mopan Maya-Spanish-English Dictionary (2011) gives different IPA values for some of the ALMG orthography. Specifically, he gives ä = [ɨ] and j = [h], both of which are very different than the values given in our table here. Hofling's ALMG orthography also uses apostrophes instead of diacritics. Unfortunately, we don't have any references for our ALMG orthography and I haven't been able to find a primary source for it yet. Does anyone know where we got our table from? Kaldari ( talk) 21:02, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
This article has a ton of "citation needed" tags and large amounts of uncited text without them. I don't believe it meets the FA criteria as a result. Tezero ( talk) 19:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Couldn't the Proto-Mayan palatal stops also be notated as [c] [cʼ] or /c/ /cʼ/? That would not only be a graphic simplification but also look more symmetric. Or is there any particular reason not to do this? The phonetic distinction between [tʲ] and [c] is very subtle – I'm not even sure if any language distinguishes both. I mean, technically speaking, a palatal stop in IPA is [c], not [tʲ], which is a palatalised alveolar stop. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 04:13, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
The article will likely need a complete overhaul as soon as this book comes out later this year: Aissen, Judith and England, Nora C. and Maldonado, Roberto Zavala (eds.), The Mayan Languages, 1-20. London: Routledge. One chapter , the historical linguistics one by Lyle Cmapbell, is available in preprint from Lyle Cmapbell's researchgate profile. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:45, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
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==1. Overall==
==2 (History)==
==4 (Subdivision)==
==5. (Overview)==
==7. (grammar)==
==8. (writing)==
Do you mean something like this?:
... Or do you mean we should try to model our chart on this one:
... The latter seems like overkill, but, if you say so... (Also, I've seen ALMG lists many times, the convention among native speakers is to do them vowel/consonant alphabetically, as we've done here.) -- Homunq 21:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
==11. References==
==List of unresolved issues== ===Addressed, but you be the judge.=== 1a, 1b, 1g 2e 6e These tend to relate to prose quality, a subjective matter. ===Contested.===
1h
4b,c
5a
===Unresolved, uncontested.=== 3h,m,n,p These all have to do with sourcing in the history section. Needs work. 7c Another sourcing concern, but an easier one of adding page numbers of existing sources to cite individual facts throughout the grammar section. I've removed most of the resolved (or marked as such) content in preparation for a second reading. Circeus 01:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC) == Second reading == About citing: The trick is generally that every fact in the article should be traceable to a specific source, which is why FAs tend to have lots and lots of footnotes. As such, it is reasonable that every paragraph has at least one citation covering the entirety of it.
Phonology
Glyphic writing
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Last edited at 23:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 23:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
The article states that "ejective /tʼ/ and the non-ejective sequence /tʔ/ (previously t' and t7) are both written t'". This is not true when you follow the rules proposed by the Academia de las Lenguas Mayas de Guatemala. The ALMG uses hyphens to distinguish these cases, writing /tʼa/ as "t'a" and /tʔa/ as "t-a". For example in Q'eqchi', nat'an /natʼan/ (he topples it) versus xat-atin /ʃatʔatin/ (you bathed). This rule is quite visible when conjugating intransitive verbs that start with a vowel: xin'atin, xat-atin, x'atin, xoo'atin, xex'atin, xe'atin. Note the hyphen in the second person singular. All legal documents and most other documents published in Guatemala follow this rule.
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You didn't include page numbers - there are many attributions in the article - go back and fix, please. 50.111.54.42 ( talk) 14:10, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
The following maps seem are unsourced:
A455bcd9 ( talk) 16:01, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
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At around 62k this article is now weighing in around or above what is probably the acceptable limit. It may be a problem for a future GA nomination, we'll need to look and see what can be pruned / made more concise.-- cjllw | TALK 08:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Erm, is there any interest in converting Image:Mayan Language Tree in colour.png into a table, with individual entries wikilinked? It'd be a pain, but I'm thinking it's doable. I also think it would be kinda handy. -- Ling.Nut 19:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
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Alternate version of clickable table. Can add colors. Sometimes doesn't load completely (?) so reload:
Proto-Mayan | Huastecan Branch |
Wastek | ||||
Chiomuceltec | ||||||
Yucatecan Branch | ||||||
Yucatec (Maya) | ||||||
Mopan | ||||||
Itza' | ||||||
Lakantun | ||||||
Western Branch | Ch'olan | Ch'ol Proper | Chontal | |||
Ch'ol | ||||||
Ch'orti' | ||||||
Tzeltalan | Tzeltal | |||||
Tzotzil | ||||||
Q'anjobalan | Chujean | Chuj | ||||
Tojolab'al | ||||||
Q'anjobalan Proper | Q'anjob'al | |||||
Akatek | ||||||
Jakaltek(Popti') | ||||||
Mocho' | ||||||
Eastern Branch | Mamean | Mamean | Mam | |||
Tekiteko | ||||||
Ixilean | Ixil | |||||
Awakatek | ||||||
Quichean | Uspantek | |||||
Quichean Proper | ||||||
Kaqchikel | ||||||
Tz'utujil | ||||||
K'iche' | ||||||
Sakapultek | ||||||
Sipakapense | ||||||
Achi | ||||||
Poqom | Poqomchi' | |||||
Poqomam | ||||||
Q'eqchi' |
-- Ling.Nut 04:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Maunus, ptcamn, cjllwright (and others I may not yet have met):
Y'all are the Mayan folks. :-) Y'all decide whether you want the version ptcamn made, the one I made, or neither. His is a bit more perspicuous, I think; mine takes up a bit less vertical real estate and could potentially include colored cells. Later! -- Ling.Nut 16:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
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Chontal | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Ch'ol
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Mocho'
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Tekiteko
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Achi
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~2000 BC | ~1000 BC | 1 AD | ~1000 AD | ~2000 AD |
Regarding making this clickable, I'm not sure it's worth the work, not only to set it up but also to maintain it. The separate languages are clickable within the article itself, and the general policy is to link the word only once within the article. So, anyway, where are we at here?? Last I checked, I was going to rework the table to put the chronology along the horizontal axis, keeping the "curly brackets". Is this OK? Madman 21:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
As mentioned, I'e been thinking about re-doing the Migration map (as beautiful as it is). I have begun work but I am confused. The Migration map's arrow shows "Proto-Cholan" moving southeast (toward the Atlantic coast) but when I look at the language distribution map, I see Ch'ol and almost all of the other Western Branches, except Cho'rti', being closer to the old Olmec heartland area. Perhaps the Migration Map's "Proto-Cholan" should be "Proto-Cho'rti'"?? Any insight? Madman 23:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Its most important information is as follows:
DO you think you can work this into something decent Madman? ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 13:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Per discussion on my talk pg, it is probably time to give the FA nom for this a shot. Maybe 1 or 2 things to determine before proceeding:
It would also be good to ensure that once nominated the major contributors Maunus, Homunq, Madman et al are generally available at the time to address any concerns which might be forthcoming. Anyone else got final comments?-- cjllw | TALK 03:57, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Here's a rather obvious question. The infobox prominently lists Mayance as an alternate name for the language family (it almost looks like it's ment to be a superfamily) but the text doesn't mention it at all, only commenting on the Maya/Mayan debate. A quick google search shows that it is a real term but little used. [1] calls it a failed proposal. I'll see if I can track down a reliable source but it should probably be in the text as well as (or even rather than) bolded in the infobox. Eluchil404 07:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Maunus, you removed the following:
The wide influence of the Mayan culture and languages during this period is demonstrated by the etymology of the English word " hurricane". At the root of "hurricane" is the name of a Classic Mayan deity associated with tempests called Jun Raqan "one leg"; [1] but the word came into English indirectly, probably through Carib via Spanish. This suggests that Classic Maya traders had spread their influence beyond Mesoamerica to the Caribbean region.
...I agree it's unsourced, so fine; but I liked it, so I'm leaving it here in case anyone can find the source on it. -- Homunq 02:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
References
The article states that in K'iche'an-Mamean, [ŋ] became [x]. However, in the table on the evolution of [tʲaʔŋ], Mam, K'iche', and Kaqchikel were shown as having "X" for Proto-Mayan [ŋ], which I had interpreted as a uvular fricative, and changed to [χ] accordingly...is this incorrect? What's the story here? -- Miskwito 22:01, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
While I'm asking questions, I'll also point out two things in the Morphosyntactic Alignment tables that caught my eye:
Thanks in advance, -- Miskwito 22:17, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
This article is undergoing review for FA status. One reviewer has suggested that it needs copyediting. Any help would be appreciated. -- Homunq 00:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I've never heard tonal Tzotzil... where is that dialect? Also, I've been told by various people that Mam is tonal, yet that's not mentioned. -- Homunq 14:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I won't add it myself since I don't have a source for it, but it should probably be noted somewhere that the names of several of the Mayan languages (Acatec, Aguacatec, Chicomuceltec, Huastec, Jacaltec, Sacapultec, Tectitec, Uspantec, and probably Yucatec) are actually Nahuatl, and what the Mayan names for them are (e.g. Huastec speakers call their language Tenek, etc.) -- Ptcamn 06:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Can we make the reflist smaller and possibly into two columns? ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 21:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I was gonna edit this article some, perhaps adding cquotes (the big blue quotation marks which I think are extremely visually appealing, but some folks snobbishly refer to as "cartoon quotes") for a long quotation, but since it's FAC I'll let its dedicated editors make the call. :-) Portions of this quote look useful to me:
“ | In the recent Mayan cultural activism, maintenance of Mayan languages has been promoted in an attempt to support "unified Mayan identity" (Fischer and Brown 1996). However, there is a complex array of perceptions about Mayan language and identity among Mayans who I researched in Momostenango, a highland Mayan community in Guatemala. On the one hand, Mayans denigrate K’iche’ and have doubts about its potential to continue as a viable language because the command of Spanish is an economic and political necessity. On the other hand, they do recognize the value of Mayan language when they wish to claim the ‘authentic Mayan identity’. It is this conflation of conflicting and ambivalent ideologies that inform language choice... | ” |
Lather, rinse, repeat: I dunno what you do or don't want in article, so will post q's that look useful here on talk page:
“ | "In the words of a Mayan leader:'Guatemala is culturally a nation, but it is politically divided, atomized, so that all the indigenous people in Guatemala are Maya, and so is their collective memory. We are alive, but we need symbols because we do not have a community yet since the government divided us as Mayan people' (Cojtí 1991) [Note from Ling.Nut:This should perhaps be Cojtí Cuxil 1991] The term Maya is problematic because Mayan peoples do not constitute a homogenous identity. Maya, rather, has become a strategy of self-representation for the Mayan movements and its followers. The Academia de Lenguas Mayas de Guatemala (ALMG) finds twenty-one distinct Mayan languages" (Fabri 2003:61 n1). | ” |
Hey: you guys said ALMG formed in '96; this says '86:
[BOOK] The Maya Tropical Forest: People, Parks and Ancient Cities
JD Nations - 2006 - ... The Academia de Lenguas Mayas de Guatemala (ALMG), formed in Guatemala in 1986, is dedicated to the preservation and revitalization of Maya languages. ...
-- Ling.Nut 21:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
(undent) Maunus, I emailed you a note/ref 'cause I couldn't edit wikipedia, but now it seems to be working, so I added them to the article. Have a look at the note about Grenoble & Whaley (I think it's #14) to see if it fits the article's needs. Cheers! -- Ling.Nut 00:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The notes are small, but then the refs sections has normal text size again... would smaller look better? Something like this would work:
<div id="articlerefs" style="width:100%;font-size:85%">
</div>
The construction of this section bothers me. First it relies on the opinions of a small number of linguists to present a simplified, uncontested, story of the evolution and divergence of the many maya languages. I see too much of a reliance on the SIL (throught the ethnologue.com references) idea of how languages relate without any acknowledgement that much of this is contested by other scholars. The one that got me, though, was the statement, attributed to Lyle Campbell, that the Maya languages dominated the Xinca and Lenca because loan words flowed from Maya to these languages. Gee, loan words indicate contact and do not by themselves indicate domination. Rsheptak 19:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I dunno about the recent inclusion of a brief mention about this Mayan-lang. historical doc in the text. Partly since it's more relevant to something like Mesoamerican literature, but mostly because its authenticity (as a genuine and faithful copy of some earlier doc and oral history) has been open to dispute. While it may or may not be genuine, it would probably take up too much unwarranted space here to go into an explanation of it. I think we should have an article on this doc (although the present version needs complete rewriting as it is taken from another site, even if the site's author and the article's are one and the same), but given its unclear status I'd rather not see it rolled into other articles on equal footing as (say) the Popol Vuh.-- cjllw | TALK 03:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
(Under "Yucatecan branch":) "It has a rich post-colonial literature, and remains common as the first and even second language in rural areas in Yucatán."
First of all, shouldn't it be something like "remains common as the second and sometimes even the first language in rural areas..." since the sentence seems to be trying to prove how dominant the language is in its region. You wouldn't say something is first, even second if you were trying to prove how awesome it is... Would you? It seems very odd to me.
Second of all, there's no source for it.
Maybe this info is in another source in the article, but it needs the citation next to it. I'm just too afraid to alter anything in a featured article on a subject I can only barely begin to understand. Grand master ka 09:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm surprised that neither Yuri Knorosov nor Tatiana Proskouriakoff are mentioned in the article. Just another anti-Russian conspiracy, I suppose... :) -- Ghirla -трёп- 06:45, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Why aren't featured articles freaking protected?
Do you think that Wikipedia:Main Page featured article protection should be redrafted or not? Please help form consensus at Wikipedia talk:Main Page featured article protection#Consensus. DrKay 09:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Someone put a {{check}} template ("verification needed") in the "Core Quichean" section. I was going to remove it, but then I poked around a bit on Ethnologue. I couldn't find Quetzaltenango listed with these languages; only with Southern Mam. Y'all would know better than I would... Ling.Nut 17:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
The color coding in this article needs to conform with Wikipedia:MOS#Color coding. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, there is a good reason why the references are formatted that way. Ironically, it's to make it easier for a reader to identify a particular entry in a lengthy bibliographical listing. For much the same reasons that we use spacesinbetweenwords, paragraphs to break up slabs of text, and why we offset/indent successive comments on talk pages: so that it is easier to pick out where one conceptual unit ends and other begins. Most of the citations here run longer than a single line, and would not be readily differentiated one from the other without some visual cue.
You do not read a bibliography in the same way as you read 'normal' paragraphs of text- the object of a bibliography is to be able to find and identify a given reference. Take a look at any non-fiction book that you may have, that contains a bibliography- I practically guarantee you that it will be formatted by some sort of typographical device —hanging indents, caps, bolding, positioning & spacing, or some combination of these— in such a way that (a) each entry is visually distinct, and (b) the identifying keywords the reader will be looking for (ie, primarily authors' names) can be picked out from the sorted list. Using caps (actually, they are Smallcaps) to highlight keywords obviously serves a different purpose and does not carry the same meaning as when it is done in a NORMAL SENTENCE, like THIS.
There are limitations to what can be achieved through wiki formatting options without making the coding too complicated, and differences in appearance browser-to-browser that exist anyway; may not be a perfect solution, but no one format is going to please everyone. -- cjllw ʘ TALK 04:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Nahuatl#Stylistics is a good section, most of the phenomena it describes are applicable to Mayan languages as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.175.189 ( talk) 20:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Nahuatl#Stylistics is a good section, most of the phenomena it describes are applicable to Mayan languages as well. It would also be interesting to know if this style predates the Aztec or is their contribution to the Mesoamerican Linguistic Area - I'd suspect the former, given the prevalence in colonial Mayan literature, but I know nothing of mayan epigraphics so I cannot say for sure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.175.189 ( talk) 20:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
The Mayan Languages- A Comparative Vocabulary, by John Dienhart, is a compilation of over 400 years of Mayan dictionaries in around 30 languages, with over 45,000 entries. I have just gotten explicit permission from Kristina Dienhart, the daughter of John Dienhart, and from a representative of Southern Denmark University, the copyright owner, to use this data, which exists in electronic form, under CC-BY-SA or GFDL. My intention is to massage this data into usable form (for instance, update the orthography); upload it to OmegaWiki; and create pedagogical material such that it can be used (edited) in primary-school classrooms, especially with XO computers. I hope that 1500 of these computers will soon be in the hands of mostly K'iche' students in Totonicapan, and that hundreds will be in Mayan areas in Belize and Mexico.
I am a programmer and a teacher, not a professional mayanist by any stretch of the imagination, but some of you may remember me from back when Maya languages reached FA. I would love the help of anyone knowledgeable about Mayan linguistics, especially the Mexican Mayan languages, about which I know less than the Guatemalan ones. I would also be especially happy if someone could help me find funding for all or part of this work (I'm happy to work for Guatemalan programmer wages, in the range of $1000-$1500 a month; this project could be anywhere from 2 to 6 months, depending on scope). If you or someone you know would be able to help me, please get in touch with me via "email this user".
Thank you,
Homunq ( talk) 05:06, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
(cross-posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mesoamerica)
The ISO codes for the regional dialects of a given language name were decimated. See talk there for details. Homunq ( talk) 05:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
I have used the List of Mayan languages to create the new template of Mayan languages at the bottom of the page. Do you think it will be alright since it is based on the page previously mentioned? — Iudæus ( talk) 23:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
The use of the phrase "Ixil Triangle" is frowned upon by the residents of the Ixil Community. That is the proper terminology in this recently bloody region. The name "Ixil Triangle" is one given by the outside world of the Guatemalan Central government of the time and its paramilitary troops who raided and indiscriminately killed members of nearly every family.
The proper usage and proper designation of this section and all that refer to it (such as Mayan Languages) should use the proper term, Ixil Community.
Also the use of "Maya" (singular, plural, masculine, feminine) to designate a person or persons is preferable to using "Mayan" as in "The Maya have 21 known variants of Mayan languages" where Mayan is used only as an adjective. This is a small matter of respect for the Maya. Terrydarc ( talk) 03:59, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The article Chan Santa Cruz had some good content added but it uses old Mayan orthography that needs to be updated. This assists in making wiki links more simple and reliable and prevents the creation of multiple new pages for the different spellings. Some of you have the skills so please go to it. -- YakbutterT ( talk) 23:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I reverted AmericanGringo's edits to because the previous description of the distinction between the usage of Mayan (used only in linguistics) and Maya used in oher fields among them Anthropology (and notably also as an adjective) was more precise. Also he changed Belize with Honduras there are many more maya speakers in Belize than in Honduras (I assume you are referring to the dwindling speakers of Chorti'?) - but both could be mentioned. Also your statement about 31 maya languages was contradictory since guatemala recognizes 21 and mexico 8. We are only referring to luving langauges so cholti and chicomuceltec don't count. ·Maunus·ƛ· 16:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
I just came across this paper [3] (if the site is still down you may be able to view a google cache here). I just skimmed it briefly (in machine translation I must admit) but the gist is clear: Robertson and Houston argue that Wastek was not the first Mayan language to branch off as a separate family and should instead be grouped with the "Western" languages of Ch'olan and Tzeltalan. I saw the paper after seeing it cited aspprovingly here. If it has some currency it should probably be mentioned in the article as an alternate theory but I don't have a good feel for how well known or respected it is in the field, so I am not sure of the best way to express it in the article. Eluchil404 ( talk) 04:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Anyone have a good source on the colonial alphabets? It would be nice to have a table of the main variants, like we do for modern. I added a few words in the hope that s.o. will expand it. — kwami ( talk) 02:50, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Populations have risen quite abit as shown in this table inserted into the article of 2012 speaker numbers. However the table contradicts the rest of the article and List of Mayan languages. We should update all of the articles speaker numbers so that there isn't any internal contradiction. Also we should use a table format that floats to the right so we don't break the page formatting. ·ʍaunus· snunɐw· 12:30, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
Language | Number of speakers (2012) |
---|---|
K’iche’ | 2,330,000 |
Yucatec | 1,202,000 |
Q’eqchi’ | 823,500 |
Mam | 537,980 |
Kaqchikel | 451,000 |
Tzeltal | 372,000 |
Tzotzil | 330,000 |
Chol | 145,000 |
Ixil language | 135,000 |
Huastec | 131,000 |
Jakaltek | 100,000 |
Poqomchi’ | 92,200 |
Achi | 85,600 |
Tz’utujil | 84,000 |
Q’anjob’al | 77,700 |
Akatek | 60,000 |
Chuj | 50,000 |
Poqomam | 49,000 |
Chontal | 38,500 |
Tojolabal | 34,300 |
Ch’orti’ | 30,010 |
Awakateko | 18,000 |
Sakapultek | 15,000 |
Mopan | 14,200 |
Sipakapa | 8,000 |
Tektitek | 6,000 |
Uspanteko | 3,000 |
Lacandon | 1,000+ |
Mocho’ | 170 |
Itza’ | 12 |
The population of Jakaltek has been reduced by a factor of ten between E16 and E17. I thought this was an error, that the two ISO codes were merged without merging the populations, but evidently the number was changed after merging. Maybe one of the E16 figures spurious? — kwami ( talk) 21:11, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Hofling (2008) reports 9,000–12,000 native Mopan Maya speakers. Ethnologue says "9,200 in Belize (2006). Population total all countries: 14,200." Actually Hofling's specific quote is: "In Guatemala, Mopan speakers number between three and four thousand, according to the statistics gathered by the Mopan branch of the Academia de Lenguas Mayas de Guatemala (ALMG pers. comm. 2008). The population in Belize is larger, perhaps six to eight thousand (Grimes 2000)." I wonder why Ethnologue's estimates are so much higher. Kaldari ( talk) 03:09, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Hofling's Mopan Maya-Spanish-English Dictionary (2011) gives different IPA values for some of the ALMG orthography. Specifically, he gives ä = [ɨ] and j = [h], both of which are very different than the values given in our table here. Hofling's ALMG orthography also uses apostrophes instead of diacritics. Unfortunately, we don't have any references for our ALMG orthography and I haven't been able to find a primary source for it yet. Does anyone know where we got our table from? Kaldari ( talk) 21:02, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
This article has a ton of "citation needed" tags and large amounts of uncited text without them. I don't believe it meets the FA criteria as a result. Tezero ( talk) 19:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Couldn't the Proto-Mayan palatal stops also be notated as [c] [cʼ] or /c/ /cʼ/? That would not only be a graphic simplification but also look more symmetric. Or is there any particular reason not to do this? The phonetic distinction between [tʲ] and [c] is very subtle – I'm not even sure if any language distinguishes both. I mean, technically speaking, a palatal stop in IPA is [c], not [tʲ], which is a palatalised alveolar stop. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 04:13, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
The article will likely need a complete overhaul as soon as this book comes out later this year: Aissen, Judith and England, Nora C. and Maldonado, Roberto Zavala (eds.), The Mayan Languages, 1-20. London: Routledge. One chapter , the historical linguistics one by Lyle Cmapbell, is available in preprint from Lyle Cmapbell's researchgate profile. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:45, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
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The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Mayan languages/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
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==1. Overall==
==2 (History)==
==4 (Subdivision)==
==5. (Overview)==
==7. (grammar)==
==8. (writing)==
Do you mean something like this?:
... Or do you mean we should try to model our chart on this one:
... The latter seems like overkill, but, if you say so... (Also, I've seen ALMG lists many times, the convention among native speakers is to do them vowel/consonant alphabetically, as we've done here.) -- Homunq 21:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
==11. References==
==List of unresolved issues== ===Addressed, but you be the judge.=== 1a, 1b, 1g 2e 6e These tend to relate to prose quality, a subjective matter. ===Contested.===
1h
4b,c
5a
===Unresolved, uncontested.=== 3h,m,n,p These all have to do with sourcing in the history section. Needs work. 7c Another sourcing concern, but an easier one of adding page numbers of existing sources to cite individual facts throughout the grammar section. I've removed most of the resolved (or marked as such) content in preparation for a second reading. Circeus 01:10, 2 March 2007 (UTC) == Second reading == About citing: The trick is generally that every fact in the article should be traceable to a specific source, which is why FAs tend to have lots and lots of footnotes. As such, it is reasonable that every paragraph has at least one citation covering the entirety of it.
Phonology
Glyphic writing
|
Last edited at 23:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 23:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
The article states that "ejective /tʼ/ and the non-ejective sequence /tʔ/ (previously t' and t7) are both written t'". This is not true when you follow the rules proposed by the Academia de las Lenguas Mayas de Guatemala. The ALMG uses hyphens to distinguish these cases, writing /tʼa/ as "t'a" and /tʔa/ as "t-a". For example in Q'eqchi', nat'an /natʼan/ (he topples it) versus xat-atin /ʃatʔatin/ (you bathed). This rule is quite visible when conjugating intransitive verbs that start with a vowel: xin'atin, xat-atin, x'atin, xoo'atin, xex'atin, xe'atin. Note the hyphen in the second person singular. All legal documents and most other documents published in Guatemala follow this rule.
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You didn't include page numbers - there are many attributions in the article - go back and fix, please. 50.111.54.42 ( talk) 14:10, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
The following maps seem are unsourced:
A455bcd9 ( talk) 16:01, 19 November 2022 (UTC)