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Considering that "The international community considers Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law. According to human rights organization B'Tselem, the state of Israel itself acknowledges that much of the Ofra civilian settlement is built on privately owned Palestinian land, which is unlawful according to Israeli law." ( /info/en/?search=Ofra) I see it as an unnessecary political statement to subtitle the Photo with children in Ofra baking Matzo. How about just removing the "in Ofra" or chosing a different photo from an undisputed location, if the location is important to anyone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.64.144.77 ( talk) 20:56, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm interested in the ingredients and preperation of Matzo, not in zionism. Zionistic phrases contained in the article: "...millennia of of exile...", "However as the people of Israel return to their ancient homeland...". These have no place in the article, and are clearly an attempt push an agenda that has nothing to do with Matzo whatsoever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.110.246.219 ( talk) 06:57, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
So I go and buy a packet of matzos at the supermarket because dad likes them. Personally i think they are the most bland thing you can eat next to cardboard (at least put some salt in them FFS!). I look it up on wikipedia to see why on earth anyone would want to make these things and, importantly, what these things are as a food. THESE ARE FOOD. Yes there's a whole Jewish/Christian thing behind them, but shouldn't most of that stuff go in religious topics, not cuisine? All i need to know is the very basics of where they come from, varieties, how they are made, nutrition info and uses in cuisine. Again, this is an article about FOOD not religion! Please keep all your religious stuff (NOTE: religion is differnet to national culture!) in another article. Thankyou.
Try this: I added yeast to my nana's matzo recipe. Delish! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.115.159.54 ( talk) 17:44, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
NO SIR THIS IS A RITUALISTIC BREAD THAT IS TAKEN WITH RESPECT AND ONLY EATEN IN THE TIME OF THE PASSOVER. SAINT THOMAS CHRISTIANS OF KERALA IN INDIA ARE VERY STRICT ABOUT THE MAKING AND CONSUMPTION...IT SHOULD BE MADE IN THE HOUSE ITSELF....IT MUST BE TREATED RESPECTFULLY AND SHOULD BE CUT BY THE HEAD OF THE FAMILY....NOT TO ODFFEND ANYONE BUT THIS IS OUR SYRIAN CHRISTIAN CULTURE AS ACCORDING TO LEGEND WE WERE DIRECTLY CONVERTED BY THOMAS THE APOSTLE... — Preceding unsigned comment added by ARAVIND NAMBOOTHIRI ( talk • contribs) 19:33, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
Regardless the Sefaradi/Ashkenazi spelling, the Hagada(which is the official religious scroll for the passover, BY ALL JEW), refer to it as Matza(h). The Title should be changed.
Note: Haggada Note: Passover Seder Note: In Passover the edit used both spelling options.
Mazza is the spelling found on many boxes of various brands of machine-mazza to this day. Considering how the English word "pizza" is pronounced, it seems to me that this is still a valid spelling, and certainly one of the oldest and most venerable. It should AT LEAST be mentioned.
What the *** is Matzo? I've been an Ashkenazi Jew from a traditional family for half a century, in the diaspora and Israel, and have never heard the word, in liturgical-Ashkenazi or Sephardi-modern-Israeli Hebrew, nor seen it written like that in English (maybe Matza manufacturers in America spell it like that?). The word is Matza (or Matzah, if one wants to demonstrate that the third letter is heh, not alef, as in "found") and the plural is Matzot. As for the Google searches, they must have been searching something else. Maybe they were looking for the mountain near Larissa in Greece?). It's truly a ridiculous argument to dig one's heels in about. So, could somebody change the article's name to the correct one? The point which may have been missed is that even if a liturgical Ashkenazi were to pronounce the kamatz under the tzadi as "oh", it's still a kamatz! It's as if a Liverpudlian had spelt Sun Soohn (it was a soohny day) because that's how the word is pronounced in Merseyside. Whoever decided on Matzo must be an Diaspora Ashkenazi Jew with no knowledge of the Hebrew language (liturgical or modern) because the word מצו simply doesn't exist. But as stated, even in totally Ashkenazi English-speaking communities I have never heard the word pronounced that way, including my British Ashkenazi family, after scores of Seder nights together. And having said that, the largest number of Jews in the world live in Israel, where Sephardi Hebrew is spoken by everyone. So could this please be changed? As an editor very low on the Wiki food chain, I don't dare to do this myself (although I seem to have a phantom memory of doing so myself approximately 10-12 years ago, but I might be imagining this) Monosig ( talk) 15:34, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Bartlby's list "Matzo" as the official spelling [1] and "Matzoh" as the alternate spelling.
By the way, not sure what happened here, but this should almost certainly be "Matza" or "Matzah", because that is the neutral Hebrew term -- "Matzoh" reflects an Ashkenazi dialect which is not neutral. Sort of like a POV article name -- what must be done to get it changed? I don't know how to do this. 132.216.227.226 01:16, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
In Hebrew, which is the original source for this word, many matzha are "Matzoth"(מצות) and not "Matzo"(מצו)there is no such a word as מצו in Hebrew-and that's should be the rule, its not matter how people in the diaspora use to prenounce it, as the matzoth are a customary food for the entire Jewish people, and as the word didn't came from Yiddish.-- Gilisa 07:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Matzah is used by Artscroll. Matzo is an Americanised way of spelling. I will proceed to change? Chesdovi ( talk) 14:41, 7 April 2010 (UTC) Matzah is used by Artscroll. Matzo is an Americanised way of spelling. I will proceed to change? Chesdovi ( talk) 14:41, 7 April 2010 (UTC) I agree that Matzah is the right way to spell it. I don't know where the heck people got the idea of spelling it "Matzo," but it's wrong. Wrong. DanHakimi ( talk) 23:15, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
I hadn't seen this discussion when I did it, but I have radically changed the article in this respect. There are 3 basic pronunciations, Israeli/Sefaradi matza, Ashkenazi matzo, and Yiddish matze. As the first two are Hebrew words there are variant English transliterations (spellings); no less than 12 are given by OED2. So I have trimmed the first sentence and added a longish section on spelling, pronunciation, and usage. I'm sure this is the subject of many strongly-held opinions, and hope that I've been even-handed enough. I hope this doesn't meet with too much disapproval. Within the article all variants seem to be used, which is fine by me, I don't see any major reason to make it consistent. Pol098 ( talk) 17:02, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
i hate it that it's misspelled. it's, 'matzoth!' you need to put all the
various spellings IN the article. not everyone likes misspelled words when they do searches.
~ ^..^~ catlady87
I thought somebody here might know: An article on quartanzans was just created. Apparently, it's a cracker-like bread similar to matza, which is also eaten on Jewish holidays. But the term gets 0 Google hits, so I'm wondering if it's real, or a joke? Thanks. 68.81.231.127 10:35, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone tell me what matzo meal is made from? Thanks.
Matzo meal is simply matzo that has been ground up into crumbs. It is often used as a replacement for bread crumbs, such as when breading a cutlet. It can also be used for making a batter for frying pancakes and other foods. If the matzo is ground even further, to flour-like fineness, it is called "matzo cake meal" or just "cake meal", and can be used in making cakes. Because it has already been wet and baked, it no longer has many of the chemical proprties of regular flour. This is why it can be used on Passover, and for the same reason it cannot replace flour in recipes without some adjustment to the recipe; for example, cakes would have more egg to help it fluff better, but breads usually don't come out good at all. --
Keeves 3 July 2005 03:13 (UTC)
Excuse me? Blood of a Christian child? I thought that myth was over with since the beginning of the 20th century! It should be removed! (unsigned)
No Myth F-tard!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/08/wjews08.xml (unsigned)
There are processes in Wikipedia to deal with repeated vandalism. I strongly suggest you work this out in therapy, rather than making a fool of yourself in public. FiveRings 15:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure who posted the Telegraph article, but they should know that it's complete and utter nonsense. Amongst other glaring factual inaccuracies, the claim that Pesach is the Jewish Easter is idiotic. Since Easter commemorates Jesus's resurrection and Pesach commemorates the Israelites' escape from Egypt, this akin to calling Chanukah the Jewish Christmas, since they both concern events that happened in the same month. The fact that thousands of years (in the first case) or hundreds (in the second) is obviously a minor concern.-- Elmorell 14:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
There have been rumors, investigation, and intrigue into this matter for near a thousand years. Although I have seen no evidence that has refuted the blood case, which is very strange and unique. I think that it should be added in this article, perhaps as a side-note in the ingredients, that such claims were made.
206.172.193.136 02:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Having no evidence by the claimants is not an argument against notability of the claim. To the contrary, around here (Poland), blood libel is nearly synonymous with using the blood of christian babies as an ingredient of matzot. While no one sane would agree with the claim, it nevertheless caused lots of prosecution and murders over the thousand years. KiloByte ( talk) 21:54, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
You don't mention adding christian baby blood myth? A pity. 78.88.117.116 ( talk) 11:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Oy, that would've been kind of hard to come by in the earlier years wouldn't it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.149.81 ( talk) 23:41, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Matzo →
Matzah — Move per
WP:COMMONNAME. It was controversial a few years ago to make this move, but the near-ubiquity of the spelling "Matzah" among both Jews and non-Jews preempts the traditional
Ashkenazi pronunciation.
Kari Hazzard (
T |
C)
21:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stemonitis 06:39, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Since it was written as if all Ashk. don't eat egg matzah, I gathered aditional sources. Someone with some knoledge of the subject, please look at my edits. I cited Chabad. Anyways, I tried to provide some more background and reasoning into the subject. Epson291 02:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Ashkenazim allow egg mazza (on Passover) only for the elderly or infirm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.116.101 ( talk) 21:04, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Should me mentioned that soft mazza includes oil in the recipe. Laws relevant to the oil used for mazza are included in the beginning of the Me'am L'ez Hagaddah. for example.
I've been thinking about it, and after a professor who said that anything that ends in a "hey" (ה) should be transliterated ending with an "h", I think this page should be moved to Matzah. And if you're trying the google test, note that most of the results for Matza are people's names or the name of a place in the Star Wars Expanded Universe, so that's not very reliable at all. Valley2 city‽ 15:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
hallo, isn't the main picture in the article just a bit to much free advertising for the matze-company in question? -- Ajnem ( talk) 11:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved — innotata 16:18, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Matzo →
Matzah — Although many brands use matzo, I feel Matzah is the proper and more common English spelling.
Chesdovi (
talk)
15:15, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.It's called Matza in hebrew, not Matzo wich is in the ashkenazic dialects.
the israelites also called it "Matza" - flat, unleavend whole-grain bread. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.177.181.173 ( talk) 02:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I notice that the word is spelled מַצָּה . In my Hebrew book it says that the word מָצָה means "he/it found (out), reached, obtained", in the Qal form, and in the Niphal, "he/it was found sufficient". I note that the first vowel is different. Can anyone comment about whether the two words are forms of the same thing, and if so, whether some relevant information should go into the article? Thanks,
-- TimNelson ( talk) 08:14, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Blood libels, although false in premise, were a significant part of the persecution of the Jews in many countries, rooted in a Christain myth about Matzah. Due to its significance within the scope of Matzah, there should be at least some mention of Blood libels rather than no mention at all. Colt .55 ( talk) 21:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
As there seems to be such debate about the name of the article, maybe the title should reflect the two main pronunciations (pronunciation is, I think, more of an issue than spelling). So maybe the article should be called something like "Matzah/matzo" (matzah first purely alphabetically, or "matzo/matzah", or any other desired spellings). Or maybe "mozza", one of the OED spellings, which goes well with "pizza"... Pol098 ( talk) 17:14, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
"Mazza" is the spelling on some of the boxes of machine mazza. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.125.208.244 ( talk) 15:45, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Still 2 separate entries that need to be combined -- matzo should be subsumed into Matza because most Hebrew speakers in the world use that modern Israeli (so called Sephardic, but simply Israeli fusion) pronunciation. With note and disambiguation that matzo is Ashkenazic pronunciation. no such problem in https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%94 Yohananw ( talk) 11:36, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
"matzo" is also correct as transliteration of spoken Ashkenazi Hebrew (which dialect was the in majority before the Holocaust. Same as in Yiddish). As there are many duplicate matza/matzo recipes like matza ball / matzo ball... best to start with a disambiguation before move to under matza. I'll look up wiki help Yohananw ( talk) 11:50, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest that the"Forms of the word" section is best placed at the beginning of the article; most articles with an "etymology" or similar section do this. It is particularly important for this article as the use of different pronunciations by different groups of people (and throughout he article) is otherwise puzzling (the article should make sense to someone who knows nothing about the subject). I had originally placed it at the beginning, but it has been moved near the bottom. I don't think I should make this change; if there is consensus that it should be near the beginning I suggest that it be moved there. Pol098 ( talk) 23:54, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
In the Ingredients section, the third paragraph begins with "Biblically, five specific species of grain become chametz after wetting." Instead of "Biblically" would not "Halakhally" be more accurate as this assertion is based mostly on halakha, not directly from the biblical text? — al-Shimoni ( talk) 01:53, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
The section on the five grains that can become chametz includes the claim that all Triticum grains are forbidden, but three of the five listed (einkorn, emmer, and durum) are Triticum species. Can someone resolve this discrepancy? chrylis ( talk) 10:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
All of those grains will be forbidden UNLESS they are baked into mazza. Mazza may be made only from these grains. Only these grains can become true chometz. Once they are baked into mazza, they can no longer become chometz.
I don't care what the spelling is, and certainly don't care to get into that battle with anyone1 (which is why I'm not inclined to make the necessary changes myself), but it would be really nice if consistent spelling could be used throughout the article. As it stands right now, the title is "Matzo", the introductory paragraph lists "matza" as the primary spelling and "matzah" as the secondary, and throughout the article, "matza" and "matzah" are in free variation, ignoring "matzo" despite it being the title of the article. Also, though "matzot" is (correctly) listed as the plural, within that same paragraph, "matzos" (I'm not sure whether that's English plural -s or the Ashkenazi t > s sound change) is used as the plural. Meanwhile, the article on balls made of it is titled "Matzah balls", so even the titles aren't consistent with each other, making finding related articles confusing.
1 Though if anyone cares: I'm an Ashkenazi/Sephardi Jew and native speaker of American English with a bit of Yiddish; I usually spell it <matzoh> but occasionally fall back on <matzah> (how I spelled it when I was little); and pronounce it [ˈmɑ.ʦə]. I have never seen it spelled without a final <-h> by anyone I know (which includes Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Mizrahim, and Goyim), only on packaging or the internet; and have only heard it pronounced [ˈmɑ.ʦə] or [ˈmɑ.ʦi], the latter only by Lubavitchers. -- AudiblySilenced ( talk) 05:15, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Matza. This website has the possible etymology of matzoh. Komitsuki ( talk) 14:00, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Through a roundabout way, I read the article on spelt, then followed it here. The spelt article mentions that the usage of spelt in Ezekiel 4:9 is presumably a mistranslation, and should actually be emmer, as spelt wasn't grown in the area. For that matter, after reading the article on Chametz, rye and oats aren't native to Israel either.
I see nothing about this in this article, and I think there should be mention of the disagreement or uncertainty over the five grains. 68.12.195.143 ( talk) 16:51, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
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Hi -- the "matzo ball" links in the "Cooking with matzo" section don't link to the food article but instead link to the page "Matzo Ball" which is a Christmas Eve social event. I am new and don't make wikipedia edits; could someone with more experience correct these? This occurs both in the body of the section and in the image caption. I believe it is due to the spelling of "matzo" vs "matzah" that the links go to the incorrect page. 98.172.28.240 ( talk) 16:51, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved ( non-admin closure) >>> Extorc. talk 08:09, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Matzo → Matzah – This was last discussed 12 years ago, when "Matzo" was apparently the most common name. Google search now turns up more results for "Matzah", and Ngram shows a significant gap. The "Matzah" spelling is also closer to prevailing English models for Hebrew transliteration, including WP:HE. GordonGlottal ( talk) 04:03, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Pookerella: it would seem that the issue is deeper than simply an "incorrect" spelling of "matzah", wouldn't you think? Elizium23 ( talk) 21:10, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Soft matzah is produced commercially, and is sold frozen because of the short shelf life. 2A06:C701:440B:6B00:ECCC:749D:5A5:D5AF ( talk) 07:29, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
@ UtherSRG: hi.
I can see absolutely no reason for you removing "See also: Blood libel, antisemitic claim that matzah is baked with Christian children's blood".
The topic is directly connected.
Having an item with a horribly negative connotation, but directly related to the topic at hand, linked to it in an encyclopedia, does in no way "defile" the topic. It is very basic encyclopedic work. Cheers, Arminden ( talk) 19:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
The edit by our colleague @ Gossamers: (w/o summary), who has removed the tag at the top of the page sending users looking for the actress called Emma Matzo at birth to her own page, has driven my attention to the illogical redirect from "matzo" to "matzah". Illogical because there are 3 items called matzo or Matzo: the actress, the Matzo Ball and Matzo lasagna, plus 3 items starting with matzo-. I have therefore started a DAB page with these items, with matzah linked in the lead, the 3 exact matches listed underneath the lead, and a "See also" with the matzo- items. The invisible technical details will have to be added, if thought necessary, by those who know how.
My only issue is: the resulting talk page is still connecting to this one. Who can please fix that? Thanks, Arminden ( talk) 23:05, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
What is the Manischewitz company homepage doing at External links?! Arminden ( talk) 08:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, unleavened bread is the oldest type ever to be baked, the oldest sample was found at a Natufian site in Jordan's Black Desert and is 14,500 year old. But it could have been anywhere in the region, I guess, as that culture and previous ones spread across the Southern Levant and possibly a wider area of the Fertile Crescent. So the fellow editor who replaced Egypt with Canaan, but w/o a source, was onto something geographically speaking, but the term suggests a later civilization than the Epipalaeolithic (see Natufian), so not that accurate either. I've removed Ancient Egypt as place of origin, because that's unsupported in every way you look at it - both archaeologically (possible theoretically, but Jordan ain't Egypt not) and biblically (leavened bread was typically and symbolically the Egyptian "thing" to be left behind). Arminden ( talk) 11:42, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
Hi David, this might be something for you. It doesn't seem to be related to the English word ' meal'. Is it maybe Yiddish? In German, Mehl means 'flour', so maybe that's what it's derived from. If so, it shouldn't be used here w/o being introduced, as it's not English and the word meal already exists and has another meaning. That both words have to do with eating only makes it more, not less confusing.
Use Italics? A suggestion. Or at least single or full quotation marks. Arminden ( talk) 12:42, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
Considering that "The international community considers Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law. According to human rights organization B'Tselem, the state of Israel itself acknowledges that much of the Ofra civilian settlement is built on privately owned Palestinian land, which is unlawful according to Israeli law." ( /info/en/?search=Ofra) I see it as an unnessecary political statement to subtitle the Photo with children in Ofra baking Matzo. How about just removing the "in Ofra" or chosing a different photo from an undisputed location, if the location is important to anyone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.64.144.77 ( talk) 20:56, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm interested in the ingredients and preperation of Matzo, not in zionism. Zionistic phrases contained in the article: "...millennia of of exile...", "However as the people of Israel return to their ancient homeland...". These have no place in the article, and are clearly an attempt push an agenda that has nothing to do with Matzo whatsoever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.110.246.219 ( talk) 06:57, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
So I go and buy a packet of matzos at the supermarket because dad likes them. Personally i think they are the most bland thing you can eat next to cardboard (at least put some salt in them FFS!). I look it up on wikipedia to see why on earth anyone would want to make these things and, importantly, what these things are as a food. THESE ARE FOOD. Yes there's a whole Jewish/Christian thing behind them, but shouldn't most of that stuff go in religious topics, not cuisine? All i need to know is the very basics of where they come from, varieties, how they are made, nutrition info and uses in cuisine. Again, this is an article about FOOD not religion! Please keep all your religious stuff (NOTE: religion is differnet to national culture!) in another article. Thankyou.
Try this: I added yeast to my nana's matzo recipe. Delish! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.115.159.54 ( talk) 17:44, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
NO SIR THIS IS A RITUALISTIC BREAD THAT IS TAKEN WITH RESPECT AND ONLY EATEN IN THE TIME OF THE PASSOVER. SAINT THOMAS CHRISTIANS OF KERALA IN INDIA ARE VERY STRICT ABOUT THE MAKING AND CONSUMPTION...IT SHOULD BE MADE IN THE HOUSE ITSELF....IT MUST BE TREATED RESPECTFULLY AND SHOULD BE CUT BY THE HEAD OF THE FAMILY....NOT TO ODFFEND ANYONE BUT THIS IS OUR SYRIAN CHRISTIAN CULTURE AS ACCORDING TO LEGEND WE WERE DIRECTLY CONVERTED BY THOMAS THE APOSTLE... — Preceding unsigned comment added by ARAVIND NAMBOOTHIRI ( talk • contribs) 19:33, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
Regardless the Sefaradi/Ashkenazi spelling, the Hagada(which is the official religious scroll for the passover, BY ALL JEW), refer to it as Matza(h). The Title should be changed.
Note: Haggada Note: Passover Seder Note: In Passover the edit used both spelling options.
Mazza is the spelling found on many boxes of various brands of machine-mazza to this day. Considering how the English word "pizza" is pronounced, it seems to me that this is still a valid spelling, and certainly one of the oldest and most venerable. It should AT LEAST be mentioned.
What the *** is Matzo? I've been an Ashkenazi Jew from a traditional family for half a century, in the diaspora and Israel, and have never heard the word, in liturgical-Ashkenazi or Sephardi-modern-Israeli Hebrew, nor seen it written like that in English (maybe Matza manufacturers in America spell it like that?). The word is Matza (or Matzah, if one wants to demonstrate that the third letter is heh, not alef, as in "found") and the plural is Matzot. As for the Google searches, they must have been searching something else. Maybe they were looking for the mountain near Larissa in Greece?). It's truly a ridiculous argument to dig one's heels in about. So, could somebody change the article's name to the correct one? The point which may have been missed is that even if a liturgical Ashkenazi were to pronounce the kamatz under the tzadi as "oh", it's still a kamatz! It's as if a Liverpudlian had spelt Sun Soohn (it was a soohny day) because that's how the word is pronounced in Merseyside. Whoever decided on Matzo must be an Diaspora Ashkenazi Jew with no knowledge of the Hebrew language (liturgical or modern) because the word מצו simply doesn't exist. But as stated, even in totally Ashkenazi English-speaking communities I have never heard the word pronounced that way, including my British Ashkenazi family, after scores of Seder nights together. And having said that, the largest number of Jews in the world live in Israel, where Sephardi Hebrew is spoken by everyone. So could this please be changed? As an editor very low on the Wiki food chain, I don't dare to do this myself (although I seem to have a phantom memory of doing so myself approximately 10-12 years ago, but I might be imagining this) Monosig ( talk) 15:34, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
Bartlby's list "Matzo" as the official spelling [1] and "Matzoh" as the alternate spelling.
By the way, not sure what happened here, but this should almost certainly be "Matza" or "Matzah", because that is the neutral Hebrew term -- "Matzoh" reflects an Ashkenazi dialect which is not neutral. Sort of like a POV article name -- what must be done to get it changed? I don't know how to do this. 132.216.227.226 01:16, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
In Hebrew, which is the original source for this word, many matzha are "Matzoth"(מצות) and not "Matzo"(מצו)there is no such a word as מצו in Hebrew-and that's should be the rule, its not matter how people in the diaspora use to prenounce it, as the matzoth are a customary food for the entire Jewish people, and as the word didn't came from Yiddish.-- Gilisa 07:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Matzah is used by Artscroll. Matzo is an Americanised way of spelling. I will proceed to change? Chesdovi ( talk) 14:41, 7 April 2010 (UTC) Matzah is used by Artscroll. Matzo is an Americanised way of spelling. I will proceed to change? Chesdovi ( talk) 14:41, 7 April 2010 (UTC) I agree that Matzah is the right way to spell it. I don't know where the heck people got the idea of spelling it "Matzo," but it's wrong. Wrong. DanHakimi ( talk) 23:15, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
I hadn't seen this discussion when I did it, but I have radically changed the article in this respect. There are 3 basic pronunciations, Israeli/Sefaradi matza, Ashkenazi matzo, and Yiddish matze. As the first two are Hebrew words there are variant English transliterations (spellings); no less than 12 are given by OED2. So I have trimmed the first sentence and added a longish section on spelling, pronunciation, and usage. I'm sure this is the subject of many strongly-held opinions, and hope that I've been even-handed enough. I hope this doesn't meet with too much disapproval. Within the article all variants seem to be used, which is fine by me, I don't see any major reason to make it consistent. Pol098 ( talk) 17:02, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
i hate it that it's misspelled. it's, 'matzoth!' you need to put all the
various spellings IN the article. not everyone likes misspelled words when they do searches.
~ ^..^~ catlady87
I thought somebody here might know: An article on quartanzans was just created. Apparently, it's a cracker-like bread similar to matza, which is also eaten on Jewish holidays. But the term gets 0 Google hits, so I'm wondering if it's real, or a joke? Thanks. 68.81.231.127 10:35, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Can anyone tell me what matzo meal is made from? Thanks.
Matzo meal is simply matzo that has been ground up into crumbs. It is often used as a replacement for bread crumbs, such as when breading a cutlet. It can also be used for making a batter for frying pancakes and other foods. If the matzo is ground even further, to flour-like fineness, it is called "matzo cake meal" or just "cake meal", and can be used in making cakes. Because it has already been wet and baked, it no longer has many of the chemical proprties of regular flour. This is why it can be used on Passover, and for the same reason it cannot replace flour in recipes without some adjustment to the recipe; for example, cakes would have more egg to help it fluff better, but breads usually don't come out good at all. --
Keeves 3 July 2005 03:13 (UTC)
Excuse me? Blood of a Christian child? I thought that myth was over with since the beginning of the 20th century! It should be removed! (unsigned)
No Myth F-tard!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/08/wjews08.xml (unsigned)
There are processes in Wikipedia to deal with repeated vandalism. I strongly suggest you work this out in therapy, rather than making a fool of yourself in public. FiveRings 15:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure who posted the Telegraph article, but they should know that it's complete and utter nonsense. Amongst other glaring factual inaccuracies, the claim that Pesach is the Jewish Easter is idiotic. Since Easter commemorates Jesus's resurrection and Pesach commemorates the Israelites' escape from Egypt, this akin to calling Chanukah the Jewish Christmas, since they both concern events that happened in the same month. The fact that thousands of years (in the first case) or hundreds (in the second) is obviously a minor concern.-- Elmorell 14:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
There have been rumors, investigation, and intrigue into this matter for near a thousand years. Although I have seen no evidence that has refuted the blood case, which is very strange and unique. I think that it should be added in this article, perhaps as a side-note in the ingredients, that such claims were made.
206.172.193.136 02:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Having no evidence by the claimants is not an argument against notability of the claim. To the contrary, around here (Poland), blood libel is nearly synonymous with using the blood of christian babies as an ingredient of matzot. While no one sane would agree with the claim, it nevertheless caused lots of prosecution and murders over the thousand years. KiloByte ( talk) 21:54, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
You don't mention adding christian baby blood myth? A pity. 78.88.117.116 ( talk) 11:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Oy, that would've been kind of hard to come by in the earlier years wouldn't it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.149.81 ( talk) 23:41, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Matzo →
Matzah — Move per
WP:COMMONNAME. It was controversial a few years ago to make this move, but the near-ubiquity of the spelling "Matzah" among both Jews and non-Jews preempts the traditional
Ashkenazi pronunciation.
Kari Hazzard (
T |
C)
21:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stemonitis 06:39, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Since it was written as if all Ashk. don't eat egg matzah, I gathered aditional sources. Someone with some knoledge of the subject, please look at my edits. I cited Chabad. Anyways, I tried to provide some more background and reasoning into the subject. Epson291 02:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Ashkenazim allow egg mazza (on Passover) only for the elderly or infirm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.116.101 ( talk) 21:04, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Should me mentioned that soft mazza includes oil in the recipe. Laws relevant to the oil used for mazza are included in the beginning of the Me'am L'ez Hagaddah. for example.
I've been thinking about it, and after a professor who said that anything that ends in a "hey" (ה) should be transliterated ending with an "h", I think this page should be moved to Matzah. And if you're trying the google test, note that most of the results for Matza are people's names or the name of a place in the Star Wars Expanded Universe, so that's not very reliable at all. Valley2 city‽ 15:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
hallo, isn't the main picture in the article just a bit to much free advertising for the matze-company in question? -- Ajnem ( talk) 11:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved — innotata 16:18, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Matzo →
Matzah — Although many brands use matzo, I feel Matzah is the proper and more common English spelling.
Chesdovi (
talk)
15:15, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.It's called Matza in hebrew, not Matzo wich is in the ashkenazic dialects.
the israelites also called it "Matza" - flat, unleavend whole-grain bread. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.177.181.173 ( talk) 02:21, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I notice that the word is spelled מַצָּה . In my Hebrew book it says that the word מָצָה means "he/it found (out), reached, obtained", in the Qal form, and in the Niphal, "he/it was found sufficient". I note that the first vowel is different. Can anyone comment about whether the two words are forms of the same thing, and if so, whether some relevant information should go into the article? Thanks,
-- TimNelson ( talk) 08:14, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Blood libels, although false in premise, were a significant part of the persecution of the Jews in many countries, rooted in a Christain myth about Matzah. Due to its significance within the scope of Matzah, there should be at least some mention of Blood libels rather than no mention at all. Colt .55 ( talk) 21:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
As there seems to be such debate about the name of the article, maybe the title should reflect the two main pronunciations (pronunciation is, I think, more of an issue than spelling). So maybe the article should be called something like "Matzah/matzo" (matzah first purely alphabetically, or "matzo/matzah", or any other desired spellings). Or maybe "mozza", one of the OED spellings, which goes well with "pizza"... Pol098 ( talk) 17:14, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
"Mazza" is the spelling on some of the boxes of machine mazza. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.125.208.244 ( talk) 15:45, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Still 2 separate entries that need to be combined -- matzo should be subsumed into Matza because most Hebrew speakers in the world use that modern Israeli (so called Sephardic, but simply Israeli fusion) pronunciation. With note and disambiguation that matzo is Ashkenazic pronunciation. no such problem in https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%94 Yohananw ( talk) 11:36, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
"matzo" is also correct as transliteration of spoken Ashkenazi Hebrew (which dialect was the in majority before the Holocaust. Same as in Yiddish). As there are many duplicate matza/matzo recipes like matza ball / matzo ball... best to start with a disambiguation before move to under matza. I'll look up wiki help Yohananw ( talk) 11:50, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
I would suggest that the"Forms of the word" section is best placed at the beginning of the article; most articles with an "etymology" or similar section do this. It is particularly important for this article as the use of different pronunciations by different groups of people (and throughout he article) is otherwise puzzling (the article should make sense to someone who knows nothing about the subject). I had originally placed it at the beginning, but it has been moved near the bottom. I don't think I should make this change; if there is consensus that it should be near the beginning I suggest that it be moved there. Pol098 ( talk) 23:54, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
In the Ingredients section, the third paragraph begins with "Biblically, five specific species of grain become chametz after wetting." Instead of "Biblically" would not "Halakhally" be more accurate as this assertion is based mostly on halakha, not directly from the biblical text? — al-Shimoni ( talk) 01:53, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
The section on the five grains that can become chametz includes the claim that all Triticum grains are forbidden, but three of the five listed (einkorn, emmer, and durum) are Triticum species. Can someone resolve this discrepancy? chrylis ( talk) 10:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
All of those grains will be forbidden UNLESS they are baked into mazza. Mazza may be made only from these grains. Only these grains can become true chometz. Once they are baked into mazza, they can no longer become chometz.
I don't care what the spelling is, and certainly don't care to get into that battle with anyone1 (which is why I'm not inclined to make the necessary changes myself), but it would be really nice if consistent spelling could be used throughout the article. As it stands right now, the title is "Matzo", the introductory paragraph lists "matza" as the primary spelling and "matzah" as the secondary, and throughout the article, "matza" and "matzah" are in free variation, ignoring "matzo" despite it being the title of the article. Also, though "matzot" is (correctly) listed as the plural, within that same paragraph, "matzos" (I'm not sure whether that's English plural -s or the Ashkenazi t > s sound change) is used as the plural. Meanwhile, the article on balls made of it is titled "Matzah balls", so even the titles aren't consistent with each other, making finding related articles confusing.
1 Though if anyone cares: I'm an Ashkenazi/Sephardi Jew and native speaker of American English with a bit of Yiddish; I usually spell it <matzoh> but occasionally fall back on <matzah> (how I spelled it when I was little); and pronounce it [ˈmɑ.ʦə]. I have never seen it spelled without a final <-h> by anyone I know (which includes Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Mizrahim, and Goyim), only on packaging or the internet; and have only heard it pronounced [ˈmɑ.ʦə] or [ˈmɑ.ʦi], the latter only by Lubavitchers. -- AudiblySilenced ( talk) 05:15, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
Matza. This website has the possible etymology of matzoh. Komitsuki ( talk) 14:00, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Through a roundabout way, I read the article on spelt, then followed it here. The spelt article mentions that the usage of spelt in Ezekiel 4:9 is presumably a mistranslation, and should actually be emmer, as spelt wasn't grown in the area. For that matter, after reading the article on Chametz, rye and oats aren't native to Israel either.
I see nothing about this in this article, and I think there should be mention of the disagreement or uncertainty over the five grains. 68.12.195.143 ( talk) 16:51, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
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Hi -- the "matzo ball" links in the "Cooking with matzo" section don't link to the food article but instead link to the page "Matzo Ball" which is a Christmas Eve social event. I am new and don't make wikipedia edits; could someone with more experience correct these? This occurs both in the body of the section and in the image caption. I believe it is due to the spelling of "matzo" vs "matzah" that the links go to the incorrect page. 98.172.28.240 ( talk) 16:51, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved ( non-admin closure) >>> Extorc. talk 08:09, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Matzo → Matzah – This was last discussed 12 years ago, when "Matzo" was apparently the most common name. Google search now turns up more results for "Matzah", and Ngram shows a significant gap. The "Matzah" spelling is also closer to prevailing English models for Hebrew transliteration, including WP:HE. GordonGlottal ( talk) 04:03, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
@ Pookerella: it would seem that the issue is deeper than simply an "incorrect" spelling of "matzah", wouldn't you think? Elizium23 ( talk) 21:10, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Soft matzah is produced commercially, and is sold frozen because of the short shelf life. 2A06:C701:440B:6B00:ECCC:749D:5A5:D5AF ( talk) 07:29, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
@ UtherSRG: hi.
I can see absolutely no reason for you removing "See also: Blood libel, antisemitic claim that matzah is baked with Christian children's blood".
The topic is directly connected.
Having an item with a horribly negative connotation, but directly related to the topic at hand, linked to it in an encyclopedia, does in no way "defile" the topic. It is very basic encyclopedic work. Cheers, Arminden ( talk) 19:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
The edit by our colleague @ Gossamers: (w/o summary), who has removed the tag at the top of the page sending users looking for the actress called Emma Matzo at birth to her own page, has driven my attention to the illogical redirect from "matzo" to "matzah". Illogical because there are 3 items called matzo or Matzo: the actress, the Matzo Ball and Matzo lasagna, plus 3 items starting with matzo-. I have therefore started a DAB page with these items, with matzah linked in the lead, the 3 exact matches listed underneath the lead, and a "See also" with the matzo- items. The invisible technical details will have to be added, if thought necessary, by those who know how.
My only issue is: the resulting talk page is still connecting to this one. Who can please fix that? Thanks, Arminden ( talk) 23:05, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
What is the Manischewitz company homepage doing at External links?! Arminden ( talk) 08:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, unleavened bread is the oldest type ever to be baked, the oldest sample was found at a Natufian site in Jordan's Black Desert and is 14,500 year old. But it could have been anywhere in the region, I guess, as that culture and previous ones spread across the Southern Levant and possibly a wider area of the Fertile Crescent. So the fellow editor who replaced Egypt with Canaan, but w/o a source, was onto something geographically speaking, but the term suggests a later civilization than the Epipalaeolithic (see Natufian), so not that accurate either. I've removed Ancient Egypt as place of origin, because that's unsupported in every way you look at it - both archaeologically (possible theoretically, but Jordan ain't Egypt not) and biblically (leavened bread was typically and symbolically the Egyptian "thing" to be left behind). Arminden ( talk) 11:42, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
Hi David, this might be something for you. It doesn't seem to be related to the English word ' meal'. Is it maybe Yiddish? In German, Mehl means 'flour', so maybe that's what it's derived from. If so, it shouldn't be used here w/o being introduced, as it's not English and the word meal already exists and has another meaning. That both words have to do with eating only makes it more, not less confusing.
Use Italics? A suggestion. Or at least single or full quotation marks. Arminden ( talk) 12:42, 31 March 2024 (UTC)