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I think there are many points in this article worth mentioning in our article. Bus stop ( talk) 22:04, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
The New York Times Magazine: Have We Learned Anything From the Columbia Rape Case? (May 29, 2015). A detailed summary of the controversy. -- 82.113.98.168 ( talk) 13:30, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
I think that in this article we should be particularly interested in concrete commentary about the artwork. This can come from others but we should be particularly interested in the artist's commentary about her own artwork. An easy misassumption that we can fall into is thinking that the reader knows all there is to know about "Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight)". Anytime we shed light on how the artist regards the artwork, we are properly building this article. For instance, that she documented her daily "interactions with fellow students and strangers" in a "document, totaling 59,000 words (the length, more or less, of a novel) and typed up in Microsoft Word" sheds light on her approach to making an artwork. And that she has compassion towards a homeless man who is helping her with her artwork sheds light on her approach to her artwork. Aside from her stated aim of causing her alleged rapist off the campus she apparently did not harbor anger. She stated: "People think I was supposed to have this warlike relationship with it and it was supposed to be this object that I was angry with, but for me, that related to how people chose to read my piece rather than the way I lived with it. To me, the piece has very much represented [the fact that] a guy did a horrible thing to me and I tried to make something beautiful out of it." [1] Bus stop ( talk) 15:01, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
From the source: (redacted)'s parents, meanwhile, wrote in an email to me that “graduation was devastating.” They were especially upset by an exhibition at a university gallery, preceding graduation, that included Sulkowicz’s prints of a naked man with an obscenity and of a couple having sex, inked over a copy of a Times article about (redacted). “We cannot imagine a more humiliating experience,” Andreas Probosch, (redacted)’s father, told me via email after going to the exhibition. Sulkowicz wrote in an email that the images are cartoons. “What are the functions of cartoons?” she asked. “Do they depict the people themselves (a feat which, if you’ve done enough reading on art theory, you will realize is impossible), or do they illustrate the stories that have circulated about a person?”-- 88.70.11.79 ( talk) 17:35, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
You should include that court hearing is due to take place on June 25, 2015. Judge is Gregory H. Woods. Columbia's attorney is Roberta A. Kaplan. Source: [6].-- 82.113.99.79 ( talk) 14:10, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
-- Llaanngg ( talk) 21:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Several IPs or new accounts have arrived, some focusing mostly or entirely on this page, some or all from Germany, including Cyve, Darwinian Ape, JakobvS. Also:
Can you say whether the IPs are the same people as the accounts, or are you six separate people? Alternatively, if you don't want to identify an IP as yours, it would be helpful if you would stay logged in from now on. Sarah (SV) (talk) 17:01, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
I am not from Germany and those IP's aren't mine. I haven't been writing as an IP for a while now. So, there are at least two different people involved. Cheers! Darwinian Ape talk 19:14, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't know who the other Germans are, but an administrator should be able to check that I've been writing for Wikipedia for years under my name. For the German wikipedia as well as for the English one, which is much better than the former, probably due to the fact that many people from many countries are contributing to it. Apart from that, the debated case is indeed a topic in Germany, that's why you can read an article in a German newspaper about it. As for from where I exactly come from, I am from Hamburg-St. Pauli, Germany. I hope this information may help you in your investigation, Sarah.-- JakobvS ( talk) 07:41, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
(Nblund) its been established through several discussions that this entry is about the art piece, and not about the rape accusation.
I'm late to this party, so I wasn't aware of those discussions. If that's in fact the consensus here, the article is out of line with consensus and some of it needs to go. We could easily refer to "an alleged rape" a few times as necessary and omit any details, and much of the discussion on this page would become
WP:FORUM. If you're correct, we don't need any details about the rape controversy for NPOV, since the article is not about that. ―
Mandruss
☎
16:00, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
I think this conversation is an indicator of how limiting the article name is. I feel like the rape accusation is the broader topic and the art piece is just an element of it. After all, all the notability of the art piece comes from the accusation, forgive me for speculating, but I don't think a senior thesis of a student would likely merit an article in Wikipedia. And I think there are(and perhaps will be) more art works that stem from this accusation,(two of them currently mentioned in the article) and it will be difficult to add to the article since it's an article about a specific performance art piece. If we were to create another article for them, it's bound to be WP:CFORK since both will focus on the accusation. There might also be other news about the accusation itself(court rulings and such) that is hard to include to an art piece article. We can only stretch it so far. So I think a title that was suggested above in the talk page would be a better candidate, I already supported it before it has been hatted, and I would add this comment there too, if it weren't so. Darwinian Ape talk 22:24, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight) has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please add to the end of paragraph 4.1:
The accused student's parents criticized the work to be "extremely graphic" and "higly disturbing". [1]
82.113.121.234 ( talk) 19:28, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
82.113.121.234, can you first clarify whether you're also editing as 89.204.153.127 (and others in the same range) and Cyve? Sarah (SV) (talk) 19:39, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm wary of adding too much from the accused's parents, first because having his parents speak out a lot suggests that he's not an adult, and second because we don't quote Sulkowicz's parents, and too much of one will necessitate the other. Also, we don't know that his parents even saw it. Their statement isn't clear on that point. Sarah (SV) (talk) 23:45, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
His father did see it. [10] I wonder whether that should have been moved to its own section, given that it was her final thesis show. I had added it to the part where we quote the parents about Mattress, but it was moved out at some point. Is it a separate work? Sarah (SV) (talk) 23:56, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Novotny, Rudi (June 1, 2015), What Happened on the Mattress? (English version), Die Zeit Nº 22/2015: "A visit in New York with Paul (redacted), who was judged despite being cleared of any guilt." -- 88.70.11.79 ( talk) 15:46, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
In this article of Die Zeit pretty much evidence is mentioned that showed how Paul (redacted) is probably not guilty, while Emma Sulkowicz is probably guilty of making false accusations. Since claiming she is a victim is the central message of her art performance, the high probability that she indeed is the offender and Columbia University probably acted as her complice, is obligatory to be mentioned in the lead section - if you talk about the art. If you talk about the criminal case and you want to wait for a final verdict until you do so, that'd be understandable. But then you shouldn't let the article stand like an article about some great art performance, too. Then it's about a criminally relevant accusation, which therefore must not be praised as an art performance or culturally significant and progressive art controversy, while in fact it's an open criminal case.-- JakobvS ( talk) 08:05, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
That's the obvious purpose of carrying around the mattress, isn't it? Telling her story about what supposedly happened to her, showing where it happened, to construe the reality of what happened, to tell the world that she is the victim of a rapist, that she has to "carry that weight". Every source that is listed here says nothing else but this. So why do you ask?-- JakobvS ( talk) 13:41, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Oh well, the message of the art can be anything, e.g. that what's happening on matresses can be a heavy burden, or, more likely, a statement towards the supposed rapist as well as towards the public, that she deals with what the supposed rapist did to her in her own way, and thereby regains the sovereignty to interprete what happened to her, becoming a sovereign person again, even after supposedly being abused and objectified. But that's all besides the point. As it is stated in the lead section of this article, on her facebook page and in every newspaper cited here, this whole art performance began as her reaction to supposedly being raped. This legally would make her the victim of a crime. It makes her part of a criminal case. Either as the victim of rape, or as the offender, committing defamation or false accusation of rape. If the latter should turn out to be true - and it looks like that these days - it is mandatory to know that to understand the motives of the artist, the significance of the work of art, and the logic of its social consequences. After June 25th it should be clearified, but even now the whole affair can't be dealt like any art controversy, but as an action that opened a criminal case. This is a criminal case, not just some public discourse about art and/or sexism.-- JakobvS ( talk) 15:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
By the example of adverse impacts of the mattress performance activism at Columbia University Die Zeit journalist Novotny describes nearly fascist excesses of contemporary feminism in the United States. It is very surprising to read such an article in the reputable liberal and left-leaning newspaper Die Zeit (one of it's two publishers is the former German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt) and the article certainly has a strong influence to the German public opinion.-- Cyve ( talk) 16:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
This is a direct quote from the lead of our article. How can someone read this and not think that the purpose of the art performance is anything but telling the world she is the victim of this horrible crime. One may say that she is trying to raise awareness of rape in general, but she is doing it by using her own alleged victimization. Furthermore, per the quote I mentioned above, the accused is now an integral part of this performance art. One can not say that the art is not about him. Given that her case was rejected by authorities, and the accused has been found not responsible in all the hearings, I must agree that the lead should be more clear on, what is now beyond the presumption of innocence of the accused. The allegations are not just allegations, they are looked into and found without merit. Otherwise, our article serves as another avenue to defame the accused in public eye, nothing more. Darwinian Ape talk 17:19, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Nblund, defamation is, in fact, a crime in Colorado and at least a matter of civil litigation everywhere in the United States, as well as in most other Western countries. See United States defamation law.-- JakobvS ( talk) 21:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Nblund, as far as I understand the article of Die ZEIT lawyer Andrew Miltenberg is representing (redacted) in this case vs Sulkowicz, and that's what the verdict that is supposed to be spoken on June 25th is all about.-- JakobvS ( talk) 06:58, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Cyve and Bus stop, your arguments (concerning Die Zeit, and the impossibility to ever really know the truth, respectively) are just the major concerns of the article in Die Zeit. It is about a society in which you can be found not guilty by every level of jurisdiction and still be turned a social outcast. Let's say, I was a charismatic person who would find strong symbols to express what I want to say. Now I would state that you guys - like many others - had committed hate crimes, sexual abuse and massively violent acts against children, muslims, jews, blacks, women and disabled persons. Now you would ask a court to clearify that my statements are devoid of any truth, and the court would clearify that there is no evidence for my claims. But since both me and my story are strong symbols for a good cause and for many people, they label not only you, but also your supporters as child abusers/apologists of child abuse, anti-semites, islamophobes, racists, mysogynists, eugenicists. That's the problem Die Zeit is just concerned with. Die Zeit asks if we want to live in such a society. Where not only real victims may have lost their confidence in the rule of law and seek the own ways to regain the sovereingty to interprete what happened to them - but also major scenes of activists, artists, discourse-elites have lost their belief in the rule of law - since how could it ever represent the real 100% of truth? - as well as in the presumption of innocence. Instead they belief in massive public campaigns, in proclaiming their "absolute truth" regardless of any legal arguments. This perspective is so relevant for the whole social process and the ongoing criminal case we all witness here, it should be mentioned in the article.-- JakobvS ( talk) 21:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps I worded it wrong, let me try to clarify it again; The default position for the accused is innocence, therefor I am not claiming to know some information others don't. I am merely stating the fact, and until there is evidence to prove the claims of the accuser, it will remain a fact. Quoting only the accused's response will not do, at the very least the lede should mention the decision of the district attorney. And we may also move the first sentence of the second paragraph of lede to the reception section. Darwinian Ape talk 22:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
That's absolutely the least, Sarah (SV). Like you said, we all won't ever know the full truth. And everyone of us is somehow biased, too, by his socialisation, biography or whatever. Knowing this, we must not judge neither about Sulkowicz nor (redacted). Maybe not even both of the involved will ever have the same interpretation/memories of what happened. But like Darwinian Ape said, that's why we have judicial verdicts we have to respect, and that is why we have to respect the presumption of innocence. If Wikipedia's policy was to ignore these fundamental agreements of the rule of law, Wikipedia would do politics and take sides in a controversial public discourse (and not the ones who accept the judicial verdicts as binding decisions about what is the truth - so much for the warning I received on my talk page). So at the latest if (redacted) would again be found not guilty by June 25th, this would have to be mentioned in the lead of our article, as a central contrast to the motives of the work of art. Further, if you look on pages like jezebel.com, on Sulkowicz's public facebook page, on the career of (redacted) after the art, if you have a look at this http://columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2015/02/09/why-i-believe-emma-sulkowicz#.VNpjcV6VDJg.facebook, or this http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/12/columbia-sexual-assault-investigation_n_6458872.html, you can clearly see that this work of art does and provokes politics. This has to be mentioned here, since it's a central part of the social effect and story of this work of art. At least the most important sides of the public discourse have to be mentioned - the concern of Die Zeit is one of them. -- JakobvS ( talk) 05:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
@ Nblund you said; "it is not an exoneration or declaration of innocence." I feel like I am repeating myself, but he doesn't need exoneration and he is innocent by default. People can believe, or claim anything they want without proof, there are 9/11 truthers who claim it was the government and Jews that attacked the twin towers. Without proof, however, we can not take any claim seriously. And that it would be a criminal, not a civil lawsuit, so the accuser can't decide not to "press the issue further" or even if she did, the prosecutor would bring charges against the accuser should there be enough evidence. And your comparison of hurricane with this case is false equivalency since the federal court decided to throw out the conviction. And this case didn't even go to trial.
Sarah, I am not arguing to delete the art response, but I feel like its place should be reception, not the lead. Darwinian Ape talk 09:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
As with all things on Wikipedia, we base our ledes and the rest of our articles on their coverage in reliable sources- I don't see why the release of this particular article would require such a dramatic change to the lede as is being suggested. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 09:19, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
A piece of art, however, doesn't only have artistic value, it may also have social consequences. Even if its artistic quality is debated. Rambo II helped the US to overcome their Vietnam trauma, for instance. Art may change public discourses, it may change the social opportunities of people. Our quite disciplined discussion here is part of these consequences, but there are more heated and more relevant discussions out there. Questions of guilt, proof, evidence, the presumption of innocence, the rule of law, empathy towards traumatized people, the impossibilty to call for a victim to behave like a 'perfect victim', and the "truth" or "deeper truth" of this whole incidence are debated, in the sense I was reffering to earlier. I find them socially relevant, symptomatical for how public discourses may socially overtop jurisdiction. Die Zeit, which is of course far from perfect but indeed is one of the top four quality newspapers in Germany, says the same and is a reliable source. So maybe these debates and their analysis can be mentioned in the article, too.-- JakobvS ( talk) 14:48, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
@ SlimVirgin: I'm upset to find you taking the position that "... we can't say anything that implies one or the other party is not telling the truth." There should be no confusion about this: only one party here is accused of committing a felony, and our main concern must be to protect his right to be presumed innocent. Since the topic is too notable to be removed from Wikipedia under BLPCRIME, this obligates us to include exculpatory evidence, even if it might be inferred that the accuser is lying. I also disagree with your assertion that "... no one has said, and no one is in a position to say (except the accused), that the allegations are without merit." The investigation of him concluded that "the accusations are unfounded." To say that we cannot write anything that might imply his innocence, because there is not and cannot be any incontrovertible scientific proof that he is innocent, is a disturbing contortion of BLP policy. -- Sammy1339 ( talk) 03:59, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Bus stop makes sense to me, what you're saying. So let's at least put in a reference or something that this topic (public discourse socially dominating jurisprudence) is discussed in the context of the artpiece and the incidents related to it.-- JakobvS ( talk) 08:04, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
PeterTheFourth, Sarah (SV) First, the article is protected, so we can't work on it. Second, we've got reliable sources that report how (redacted) was found not guilty by all instances. Third, the verdicts of these instances are binding, even for us. Later court decision might come to different verdicts, or some day investigative journalists or lawyyers might proof how a miscarriage of justice was done. A broad solidarity movement with the supposed victim, however, can't be the source and reason for what is to be read on Wikipedia on this incident, relativizing the official verdicts. That's what we're debating about since hours now, and you haven't come to any new arguments but "who will ever know the eternal truth?" Instead you're focusing on if there's something illegal about us to articulate our concerns about this article, which is possible since you as adminsitrators have the means and power to do so. Do you have reason, too?-- JakobvS ( talk) 08:04, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
This anonymous user-IP just made the point: they are all instances of one juridicial system, the instances that say a trial isn't even worth to be hold, as well as a trial itself.-- JakobvS ( talk) 15:56, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
@ Bus stop "But a brief sentence here can acknowledge a problem" sounds like a solution to me. -- JakobvS ( talk) 22:35, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Bus stop, we could refer to this passage on page 4/6 of the ZEIT-article Others are profiting from this. "'A victims’ industry made up of female activists, lawyers and therapists,' he [Andrew Miltenberg] said. 'The government has surrendered to interest groups who attack anyone who calls for fair proceedings.' Such as a Yale professor, who warned against the removal of the presumption of innocence, or the magazine writer Emily Yoffe, who castigated the new rules as just an overreaction. Furious activists said both of them were defending rapists. Paul’s complaint also mentions these interest groups. In December, 2014, Columbia student activists from No Red Tape and Carry That Weight, Becca Breslaw and Zoe Ridolfi-Starr, read a letter at President Bollinger’s office containing the following passage: '(Emma’s) serial rapist still remains on campus today.'". We could refer to the portrait of (redacted)'s lawyer lawyer Andrew Miltenberg vs Red Tape activist Becca Breslaw on that same page 4/6, you might also quote Becca Breslaw saying. "The legal system supports violence. We want a society without violence. We want to re-educate the criminals." And our short sentence in our Wikipedia article might be: "After several instances didn't find enough evidence to put the supposed rapist to trial, and activist organisations like Red Tape still felt legitimized by the 'carry that weight'-performance to continue with their accusations, lawyers, professors and newspapers like the German 'Die Zeit' began to see the affair as an example of how public activism might dramatically relativize the social bindingness of jurisprudence." Well, what can you do, I'm German, and we aren't meant to write short sentences. But something to that effect. Can we shorten it, do we have an idea where to put it?-- JakobvS ( talk) 09:41, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
In the "Reception" section, after referencing the lawsuit, the article says, Attorney Nicholas O'Donnell wrote in Art Law Report that the pleading raised eyebrows regarding the alleged sexual details included about Sulkowicz, when the lawsuit is about the university, not about the sexual allegations.
But there is nothing in the article that describes the "alleged sexual details about Sulkowicz" from the accused's complaint, so this sentence has no context and seems out of place. I also don't think the source is a reliable source - it is a law firm's blog. I'm removing the sentence and the source, but I'm open to further discussion.
Minor
4th
20:02, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
I wanted to add the following to the article in the section on responses. We have a quote from an activist group all the way out in the midwest and we already quote the guy from Creative Time who says that Mattress Piece amplified the conversation on campus rape:
Could we have a woman editor respond please this time? Oh no, all 9,989 men watching this page like hawks are offended.-- A21sauce ( talk) 21:28, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
@ A21sauce: Can you explain your revert? Edit summary just calls it "BS" and ends in an unfinished sentence. -- Sammy1339 ( talk) 03:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
@ BoboMeowCat: I only cited the sources for completely non-controversial information, but I see the concern you have with using some of them. I will restore this (tomorrow, since User:A21sauce has accused me of "edit warring" even though I did not violate 3RR and s/he simply didn't respond to the talk page), but with different sources. Just for clarity, which of the following do you consider unacceptable?
Ariel Kaminer (22 December 2014). "Accusers and the Accused, Crossing Paths at Columbia University". The New York Times. (This article doesn't take a position, and I cited it only for the accused's own quotes.)
Cathy Young (3 February 2015). "Columbia Student: I Didn't Rape Her", The Daily Beast. (This is not an op-ed, and doesn't take a position.)
Die Zeit article (This seems to reflect the mainstream view of German press.)
McArdle (Probably this is no good and it's redundant anyway, doesn't need to be cited at all. My bad on this one.)
I'm assuming the source for the Dear Colleague Letter is okay. -- Sammy1339 ( talk) 04:49, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
Some recent editing suggests that people are writing the article without having read it or the sources. I'm not talking only about today, but generally. The sequence of events is quite complex and they hang together. Removing one bit will make another bit not make sense, but adding it all will lead to serious BLP violations. That's why it was written the way it was. I will try now to make clear how the allegations hang together, but they're going to take the article in a direction that is best avoided, so ideally the article should be reverted to its previous state. Sarah (SV) (talk) 05:58, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
The additional allegations should be left out, as they are peripheral and marginal re: the subject of the article; their inclusion created a weight/undue issue without adding real value to the article. I'm not so sure that the BLP issues are so serious since the accused is not actually named or identified in the article. Minor 4th 19:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
It's clear that we won't reach a compromise position about this, but that there were multiple allegations has been in the article from the start, so I think you should seek consensus to remove it. I'll probably restore it when I next edit if can make clear that not all were rape allegations without being too wordy. Sarah (SV) (talk) 21:06, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi Bosstopher, you removed the pleading in this edit. [12] Did you also intend to remove PacerMonitor? It would be quite useful to retain that (including for the university lawyer's name), though it does contain the accused's name in the title, which may be why you removed it. Sarah (SV) (talk) 16:07, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't know a lot about this question. I've seen civil complaints cited directly in other articles, but this may be a different BLP situation. I'll try to find some time and motivation to dig into that deeper. It's worth pointing out, for the sake of other readers, that there are arguments for and against this document in #Cite (redacted) complaint?. To avoid confusion for anyone who cares to read it, I'll try to explain its context. Atlantacity wanted to add a cite for the (redacted) complaint, directly or indirectly through a Jezebel (?) article, unaware at the time that the article already cited the document, directly, four times. Some others in the discussion opposed the citation, also unaware that it was already in the article. Those four references were later removed here, which is where we stand now. ― Mandruss ☎ 13:39, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Inderdeed, I will no longer participate in this discussion. Apparently only a certain type of women is welcome to comment, namely those convinced of the accused's guilt. Moreover, at first I felt for the accused. Now I only feel for Sulkowicz, who is self-destructing before our very eyes. Atlantacity ( talk) 05:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
It's a text that Sulkowicz allegedly sentsince they are also allegations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EvergreenFir ( talk • contribs) 06:22, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Bus stop, you added: "Sulkowicz explains the work to be an endurance performance art piece that utilizes the elements of protest." You copied a source from elsewhere in the article: "For Watson Hall, Sulkowitzc, 2 September 2014, from c. 2:00 mins." Can you give a source for that statement? Also, do we need it given that we already say it's endurance art? Sarah (SV) (talk) 22:57, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
We currently refer to summer twice and winter once. MOS:SEASON advises against that, being as we should be sensitive to the needs of readers who live below the equator (it's not their fault). But I don't know what we would do with phrases like "She spent the summer of 2014 creating the rules of engagement", or "during the previous winter break". I don't think "during the previous winter break (summer in the Southern Hemisphere)" is a good answer. Anybody have any ideas or comments? Anybody care about MOS:SEASON? ― Mandruss ☎ 19:36, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
The article quoted the accused' attorney saying there would be no charges due to "lack of reasonable suspicion." It was redirected in the article to "probable cause." They are different standards so I presume the lawyer meant what he said plainly and I removed our redirect to probable cause and let it stand as a link to reasonable suspicion. "Reasonable suspicion" is the legal term used to describe the suspicion that a crime occurred. That is the first step in investigating crimes. The second step is to determine whether there is "probable cause" to arrest someone for that crime. The difference is significant and the lawyer is saying with that language that there was lack of evidence of a crime rather than lack of evidence for arrest and conviction.
Secondly, I am also concerned that the accused is mentioned prominently on the talk page by name. He is accused of a crime and doesn't appear to be notable for any other reason. Why is his name being used in talk page and not redacted? Am I missing the reason or should we be redacting it according to our BLP policy regarding persons accused of a crime? -- DHeyward ( talk) 10:53, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
a) the way art is related to wider social issues; b) the legal, personal and social ramifications of the art performance itself.are both very topical and useful points. The name of the accused doesn't need to be mentioned to make either of them. In fact the art was praised and related to those thing before his name was known to the press. -- DHeyward ( talk) 15:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
One BLPN discussion had qualified consensus to include his name if his "full defense" is addressed in article, but unfortunately his "full defense" includes multiple BLP violations: such as texts released out of context allegedly from Sulkowicz regarding prior alleged sexual assault and prior alleged sexually transmitted disease, etc. His defense also includes this inflammatory text sent the year prior to the alleged assault which reads "fuck me in the butt", which the accused presents as an invitation to the disputed activity, and which Sulkowicz said was an expression Freshman year to mean "I'm so annoyed." This BLPN discussion concluded we should err on side of caution and not name him.
Additionally, since that BLP with that very qualified consensus, new text has been added to the article regarding a performance art video which appears to be a rape reenactment of the alleged rape which he has been accused of. Talk page consensus was we would keep his name out of the article now, to avoid hits on his name being linked to a rape reenactment video, for an alleged rape he was never charged of or convicted of. [15] -- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 14:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I think there are many points in this article worth mentioning in our article. Bus stop ( talk) 22:04, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
The New York Times Magazine: Have We Learned Anything From the Columbia Rape Case? (May 29, 2015). A detailed summary of the controversy. -- 82.113.98.168 ( talk) 13:30, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
I think that in this article we should be particularly interested in concrete commentary about the artwork. This can come from others but we should be particularly interested in the artist's commentary about her own artwork. An easy misassumption that we can fall into is thinking that the reader knows all there is to know about "Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight)". Anytime we shed light on how the artist regards the artwork, we are properly building this article. For instance, that she documented her daily "interactions with fellow students and strangers" in a "document, totaling 59,000 words (the length, more or less, of a novel) and typed up in Microsoft Word" sheds light on her approach to making an artwork. And that she has compassion towards a homeless man who is helping her with her artwork sheds light on her approach to her artwork. Aside from her stated aim of causing her alleged rapist off the campus she apparently did not harbor anger. She stated: "People think I was supposed to have this warlike relationship with it and it was supposed to be this object that I was angry with, but for me, that related to how people chose to read my piece rather than the way I lived with it. To me, the piece has very much represented [the fact that] a guy did a horrible thing to me and I tried to make something beautiful out of it." [1] Bus stop ( talk) 15:01, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
From the source: (redacted)'s parents, meanwhile, wrote in an email to me that “graduation was devastating.” They were especially upset by an exhibition at a university gallery, preceding graduation, that included Sulkowicz’s prints of a naked man with an obscenity and of a couple having sex, inked over a copy of a Times article about (redacted). “We cannot imagine a more humiliating experience,” Andreas Probosch, (redacted)’s father, told me via email after going to the exhibition. Sulkowicz wrote in an email that the images are cartoons. “What are the functions of cartoons?” she asked. “Do they depict the people themselves (a feat which, if you’ve done enough reading on art theory, you will realize is impossible), or do they illustrate the stories that have circulated about a person?”-- 88.70.11.79 ( talk) 17:35, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
You should include that court hearing is due to take place on June 25, 2015. Judge is Gregory H. Woods. Columbia's attorney is Roberta A. Kaplan. Source: [6].-- 82.113.99.79 ( talk) 14:10, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
-- Llaanngg ( talk) 21:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Several IPs or new accounts have arrived, some focusing mostly or entirely on this page, some or all from Germany, including Cyve, Darwinian Ape, JakobvS. Also:
Can you say whether the IPs are the same people as the accounts, or are you six separate people? Alternatively, if you don't want to identify an IP as yours, it would be helpful if you would stay logged in from now on. Sarah (SV) (talk) 17:01, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
I am not from Germany and those IP's aren't mine. I haven't been writing as an IP for a while now. So, there are at least two different people involved. Cheers! Darwinian Ape talk 19:14, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't know who the other Germans are, but an administrator should be able to check that I've been writing for Wikipedia for years under my name. For the German wikipedia as well as for the English one, which is much better than the former, probably due to the fact that many people from many countries are contributing to it. Apart from that, the debated case is indeed a topic in Germany, that's why you can read an article in a German newspaper about it. As for from where I exactly come from, I am from Hamburg-St. Pauli, Germany. I hope this information may help you in your investigation, Sarah.-- JakobvS ( talk) 07:41, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
(Nblund) its been established through several discussions that this entry is about the art piece, and not about the rape accusation.
I'm late to this party, so I wasn't aware of those discussions. If that's in fact the consensus here, the article is out of line with consensus and some of it needs to go. We could easily refer to "an alleged rape" a few times as necessary and omit any details, and much of the discussion on this page would become
WP:FORUM. If you're correct, we don't need any details about the rape controversy for NPOV, since the article is not about that. ―
Mandruss
☎
16:00, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
I think this conversation is an indicator of how limiting the article name is. I feel like the rape accusation is the broader topic and the art piece is just an element of it. After all, all the notability of the art piece comes from the accusation, forgive me for speculating, but I don't think a senior thesis of a student would likely merit an article in Wikipedia. And I think there are(and perhaps will be) more art works that stem from this accusation,(two of them currently mentioned in the article) and it will be difficult to add to the article since it's an article about a specific performance art piece. If we were to create another article for them, it's bound to be WP:CFORK since both will focus on the accusation. There might also be other news about the accusation itself(court rulings and such) that is hard to include to an art piece article. We can only stretch it so far. So I think a title that was suggested above in the talk page would be a better candidate, I already supported it before it has been hatted, and I would add this comment there too, if it weren't so. Darwinian Ape talk 22:24, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
This
edit request to
Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight) has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please add to the end of paragraph 4.1:
The accused student's parents criticized the work to be "extremely graphic" and "higly disturbing". [1]
82.113.121.234 ( talk) 19:28, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
82.113.121.234, can you first clarify whether you're also editing as 89.204.153.127 (and others in the same range) and Cyve? Sarah (SV) (talk) 19:39, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm wary of adding too much from the accused's parents, first because having his parents speak out a lot suggests that he's not an adult, and second because we don't quote Sulkowicz's parents, and too much of one will necessitate the other. Also, we don't know that his parents even saw it. Their statement isn't clear on that point. Sarah (SV) (talk) 23:45, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
His father did see it. [10] I wonder whether that should have been moved to its own section, given that it was her final thesis show. I had added it to the part where we quote the parents about Mattress, but it was moved out at some point. Is it a separate work? Sarah (SV) (talk) 23:56, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Novotny, Rudi (June 1, 2015), What Happened on the Mattress? (English version), Die Zeit Nº 22/2015: "A visit in New York with Paul (redacted), who was judged despite being cleared of any guilt." -- 88.70.11.79 ( talk) 15:46, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
In this article of Die Zeit pretty much evidence is mentioned that showed how Paul (redacted) is probably not guilty, while Emma Sulkowicz is probably guilty of making false accusations. Since claiming she is a victim is the central message of her art performance, the high probability that she indeed is the offender and Columbia University probably acted as her complice, is obligatory to be mentioned in the lead section - if you talk about the art. If you talk about the criminal case and you want to wait for a final verdict until you do so, that'd be understandable. But then you shouldn't let the article stand like an article about some great art performance, too. Then it's about a criminally relevant accusation, which therefore must not be praised as an art performance or culturally significant and progressive art controversy, while in fact it's an open criminal case.-- JakobvS ( talk) 08:05, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
That's the obvious purpose of carrying around the mattress, isn't it? Telling her story about what supposedly happened to her, showing where it happened, to construe the reality of what happened, to tell the world that she is the victim of a rapist, that she has to "carry that weight". Every source that is listed here says nothing else but this. So why do you ask?-- JakobvS ( talk) 13:41, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Oh well, the message of the art can be anything, e.g. that what's happening on matresses can be a heavy burden, or, more likely, a statement towards the supposed rapist as well as towards the public, that she deals with what the supposed rapist did to her in her own way, and thereby regains the sovereignty to interprete what happened to her, becoming a sovereign person again, even after supposedly being abused and objectified. But that's all besides the point. As it is stated in the lead section of this article, on her facebook page and in every newspaper cited here, this whole art performance began as her reaction to supposedly being raped. This legally would make her the victim of a crime. It makes her part of a criminal case. Either as the victim of rape, or as the offender, committing defamation or false accusation of rape. If the latter should turn out to be true - and it looks like that these days - it is mandatory to know that to understand the motives of the artist, the significance of the work of art, and the logic of its social consequences. After June 25th it should be clearified, but even now the whole affair can't be dealt like any art controversy, but as an action that opened a criminal case. This is a criminal case, not just some public discourse about art and/or sexism.-- JakobvS ( talk) 15:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
By the example of adverse impacts of the mattress performance activism at Columbia University Die Zeit journalist Novotny describes nearly fascist excesses of contemporary feminism in the United States. It is very surprising to read such an article in the reputable liberal and left-leaning newspaper Die Zeit (one of it's two publishers is the former German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt) and the article certainly has a strong influence to the German public opinion.-- Cyve ( talk) 16:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
This is a direct quote from the lead of our article. How can someone read this and not think that the purpose of the art performance is anything but telling the world she is the victim of this horrible crime. One may say that she is trying to raise awareness of rape in general, but she is doing it by using her own alleged victimization. Furthermore, per the quote I mentioned above, the accused is now an integral part of this performance art. One can not say that the art is not about him. Given that her case was rejected by authorities, and the accused has been found not responsible in all the hearings, I must agree that the lead should be more clear on, what is now beyond the presumption of innocence of the accused. The allegations are not just allegations, they are looked into and found without merit. Otherwise, our article serves as another avenue to defame the accused in public eye, nothing more. Darwinian Ape talk 17:19, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Nblund, defamation is, in fact, a crime in Colorado and at least a matter of civil litigation everywhere in the United States, as well as in most other Western countries. See United States defamation law.-- JakobvS ( talk) 21:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Nblund, as far as I understand the article of Die ZEIT lawyer Andrew Miltenberg is representing (redacted) in this case vs Sulkowicz, and that's what the verdict that is supposed to be spoken on June 25th is all about.-- JakobvS ( talk) 06:58, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Cyve and Bus stop, your arguments (concerning Die Zeit, and the impossibility to ever really know the truth, respectively) are just the major concerns of the article in Die Zeit. It is about a society in which you can be found not guilty by every level of jurisdiction and still be turned a social outcast. Let's say, I was a charismatic person who would find strong symbols to express what I want to say. Now I would state that you guys - like many others - had committed hate crimes, sexual abuse and massively violent acts against children, muslims, jews, blacks, women and disabled persons. Now you would ask a court to clearify that my statements are devoid of any truth, and the court would clearify that there is no evidence for my claims. But since both me and my story are strong symbols for a good cause and for many people, they label not only you, but also your supporters as child abusers/apologists of child abuse, anti-semites, islamophobes, racists, mysogynists, eugenicists. That's the problem Die Zeit is just concerned with. Die Zeit asks if we want to live in such a society. Where not only real victims may have lost their confidence in the rule of law and seek the own ways to regain the sovereingty to interprete what happened to them - but also major scenes of activists, artists, discourse-elites have lost their belief in the rule of law - since how could it ever represent the real 100% of truth? - as well as in the presumption of innocence. Instead they belief in massive public campaigns, in proclaiming their "absolute truth" regardless of any legal arguments. This perspective is so relevant for the whole social process and the ongoing criminal case we all witness here, it should be mentioned in the article.-- JakobvS ( talk) 21:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps I worded it wrong, let me try to clarify it again; The default position for the accused is innocence, therefor I am not claiming to know some information others don't. I am merely stating the fact, and until there is evidence to prove the claims of the accuser, it will remain a fact. Quoting only the accused's response will not do, at the very least the lede should mention the decision of the district attorney. And we may also move the first sentence of the second paragraph of lede to the reception section. Darwinian Ape talk 22:24, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
That's absolutely the least, Sarah (SV). Like you said, we all won't ever know the full truth. And everyone of us is somehow biased, too, by his socialisation, biography or whatever. Knowing this, we must not judge neither about Sulkowicz nor (redacted). Maybe not even both of the involved will ever have the same interpretation/memories of what happened. But like Darwinian Ape said, that's why we have judicial verdicts we have to respect, and that is why we have to respect the presumption of innocence. If Wikipedia's policy was to ignore these fundamental agreements of the rule of law, Wikipedia would do politics and take sides in a controversial public discourse (and not the ones who accept the judicial verdicts as binding decisions about what is the truth - so much for the warning I received on my talk page). So at the latest if (redacted) would again be found not guilty by June 25th, this would have to be mentioned in the lead of our article, as a central contrast to the motives of the work of art. Further, if you look on pages like jezebel.com, on Sulkowicz's public facebook page, on the career of (redacted) after the art, if you have a look at this http://columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2015/02/09/why-i-believe-emma-sulkowicz#.VNpjcV6VDJg.facebook, or this http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/12/columbia-sexual-assault-investigation_n_6458872.html, you can clearly see that this work of art does and provokes politics. This has to be mentioned here, since it's a central part of the social effect and story of this work of art. At least the most important sides of the public discourse have to be mentioned - the concern of Die Zeit is one of them. -- JakobvS ( talk) 05:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
@ Nblund you said; "it is not an exoneration or declaration of innocence." I feel like I am repeating myself, but he doesn't need exoneration and he is innocent by default. People can believe, or claim anything they want without proof, there are 9/11 truthers who claim it was the government and Jews that attacked the twin towers. Without proof, however, we can not take any claim seriously. And that it would be a criminal, not a civil lawsuit, so the accuser can't decide not to "press the issue further" or even if she did, the prosecutor would bring charges against the accuser should there be enough evidence. And your comparison of hurricane with this case is false equivalency since the federal court decided to throw out the conviction. And this case didn't even go to trial.
Sarah, I am not arguing to delete the art response, but I feel like its place should be reception, not the lead. Darwinian Ape talk 09:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
As with all things on Wikipedia, we base our ledes and the rest of our articles on their coverage in reliable sources- I don't see why the release of this particular article would require such a dramatic change to the lede as is being suggested. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 09:19, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
A piece of art, however, doesn't only have artistic value, it may also have social consequences. Even if its artistic quality is debated. Rambo II helped the US to overcome their Vietnam trauma, for instance. Art may change public discourses, it may change the social opportunities of people. Our quite disciplined discussion here is part of these consequences, but there are more heated and more relevant discussions out there. Questions of guilt, proof, evidence, the presumption of innocence, the rule of law, empathy towards traumatized people, the impossibilty to call for a victim to behave like a 'perfect victim', and the "truth" or "deeper truth" of this whole incidence are debated, in the sense I was reffering to earlier. I find them socially relevant, symptomatical for how public discourses may socially overtop jurisdiction. Die Zeit, which is of course far from perfect but indeed is one of the top four quality newspapers in Germany, says the same and is a reliable source. So maybe these debates and their analysis can be mentioned in the article, too.-- JakobvS ( talk) 14:48, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
@ SlimVirgin: I'm upset to find you taking the position that "... we can't say anything that implies one or the other party is not telling the truth." There should be no confusion about this: only one party here is accused of committing a felony, and our main concern must be to protect his right to be presumed innocent. Since the topic is too notable to be removed from Wikipedia under BLPCRIME, this obligates us to include exculpatory evidence, even if it might be inferred that the accuser is lying. I also disagree with your assertion that "... no one has said, and no one is in a position to say (except the accused), that the allegations are without merit." The investigation of him concluded that "the accusations are unfounded." To say that we cannot write anything that might imply his innocence, because there is not and cannot be any incontrovertible scientific proof that he is innocent, is a disturbing contortion of BLP policy. -- Sammy1339 ( talk) 03:59, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Bus stop makes sense to me, what you're saying. So let's at least put in a reference or something that this topic (public discourse socially dominating jurisprudence) is discussed in the context of the artpiece and the incidents related to it.-- JakobvS ( talk) 08:04, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
PeterTheFourth, Sarah (SV) First, the article is protected, so we can't work on it. Second, we've got reliable sources that report how (redacted) was found not guilty by all instances. Third, the verdicts of these instances are binding, even for us. Later court decision might come to different verdicts, or some day investigative journalists or lawyyers might proof how a miscarriage of justice was done. A broad solidarity movement with the supposed victim, however, can't be the source and reason for what is to be read on Wikipedia on this incident, relativizing the official verdicts. That's what we're debating about since hours now, and you haven't come to any new arguments but "who will ever know the eternal truth?" Instead you're focusing on if there's something illegal about us to articulate our concerns about this article, which is possible since you as adminsitrators have the means and power to do so. Do you have reason, too?-- JakobvS ( talk) 08:04, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
This anonymous user-IP just made the point: they are all instances of one juridicial system, the instances that say a trial isn't even worth to be hold, as well as a trial itself.-- JakobvS ( talk) 15:56, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
@ Bus stop "But a brief sentence here can acknowledge a problem" sounds like a solution to me. -- JakobvS ( talk) 22:35, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Bus stop, we could refer to this passage on page 4/6 of the ZEIT-article Others are profiting from this. "'A victims’ industry made up of female activists, lawyers and therapists,' he [Andrew Miltenberg] said. 'The government has surrendered to interest groups who attack anyone who calls for fair proceedings.' Such as a Yale professor, who warned against the removal of the presumption of innocence, or the magazine writer Emily Yoffe, who castigated the new rules as just an overreaction. Furious activists said both of them were defending rapists. Paul’s complaint also mentions these interest groups. In December, 2014, Columbia student activists from No Red Tape and Carry That Weight, Becca Breslaw and Zoe Ridolfi-Starr, read a letter at President Bollinger’s office containing the following passage: '(Emma’s) serial rapist still remains on campus today.'". We could refer to the portrait of (redacted)'s lawyer lawyer Andrew Miltenberg vs Red Tape activist Becca Breslaw on that same page 4/6, you might also quote Becca Breslaw saying. "The legal system supports violence. We want a society without violence. We want to re-educate the criminals." And our short sentence in our Wikipedia article might be: "After several instances didn't find enough evidence to put the supposed rapist to trial, and activist organisations like Red Tape still felt legitimized by the 'carry that weight'-performance to continue with their accusations, lawyers, professors and newspapers like the German 'Die Zeit' began to see the affair as an example of how public activism might dramatically relativize the social bindingness of jurisprudence." Well, what can you do, I'm German, and we aren't meant to write short sentences. But something to that effect. Can we shorten it, do we have an idea where to put it?-- JakobvS ( talk) 09:41, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
In the "Reception" section, after referencing the lawsuit, the article says, Attorney Nicholas O'Donnell wrote in Art Law Report that the pleading raised eyebrows regarding the alleged sexual details included about Sulkowicz, when the lawsuit is about the university, not about the sexual allegations.
But there is nothing in the article that describes the "alleged sexual details about Sulkowicz" from the accused's complaint, so this sentence has no context and seems out of place. I also don't think the source is a reliable source - it is a law firm's blog. I'm removing the sentence and the source, but I'm open to further discussion.
Minor
4th
20:02, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
I wanted to add the following to the article in the section on responses. We have a quote from an activist group all the way out in the midwest and we already quote the guy from Creative Time who says that Mattress Piece amplified the conversation on campus rape:
Could we have a woman editor respond please this time? Oh no, all 9,989 men watching this page like hawks are offended.-- A21sauce ( talk) 21:28, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
@ A21sauce: Can you explain your revert? Edit summary just calls it "BS" and ends in an unfinished sentence. -- Sammy1339 ( talk) 03:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
@ BoboMeowCat: I only cited the sources for completely non-controversial information, but I see the concern you have with using some of them. I will restore this (tomorrow, since User:A21sauce has accused me of "edit warring" even though I did not violate 3RR and s/he simply didn't respond to the talk page), but with different sources. Just for clarity, which of the following do you consider unacceptable?
Ariel Kaminer (22 December 2014). "Accusers and the Accused, Crossing Paths at Columbia University". The New York Times. (This article doesn't take a position, and I cited it only for the accused's own quotes.)
Cathy Young (3 February 2015). "Columbia Student: I Didn't Rape Her", The Daily Beast. (This is not an op-ed, and doesn't take a position.)
Die Zeit article (This seems to reflect the mainstream view of German press.)
McArdle (Probably this is no good and it's redundant anyway, doesn't need to be cited at all. My bad on this one.)
I'm assuming the source for the Dear Colleague Letter is okay. -- Sammy1339 ( talk) 04:49, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
Some recent editing suggests that people are writing the article without having read it or the sources. I'm not talking only about today, but generally. The sequence of events is quite complex and they hang together. Removing one bit will make another bit not make sense, but adding it all will lead to serious BLP violations. That's why it was written the way it was. I will try now to make clear how the allegations hang together, but they're going to take the article in a direction that is best avoided, so ideally the article should be reverted to its previous state. Sarah (SV) (talk) 05:58, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
The additional allegations should be left out, as they are peripheral and marginal re: the subject of the article; their inclusion created a weight/undue issue without adding real value to the article. I'm not so sure that the BLP issues are so serious since the accused is not actually named or identified in the article. Minor 4th 19:48, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
It's clear that we won't reach a compromise position about this, but that there were multiple allegations has been in the article from the start, so I think you should seek consensus to remove it. I'll probably restore it when I next edit if can make clear that not all were rape allegations without being too wordy. Sarah (SV) (talk) 21:06, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi Bosstopher, you removed the pleading in this edit. [12] Did you also intend to remove PacerMonitor? It would be quite useful to retain that (including for the university lawyer's name), though it does contain the accused's name in the title, which may be why you removed it. Sarah (SV) (talk) 16:07, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't know a lot about this question. I've seen civil complaints cited directly in other articles, but this may be a different BLP situation. I'll try to find some time and motivation to dig into that deeper. It's worth pointing out, for the sake of other readers, that there are arguments for and against this document in #Cite (redacted) complaint?. To avoid confusion for anyone who cares to read it, I'll try to explain its context. Atlantacity wanted to add a cite for the (redacted) complaint, directly or indirectly through a Jezebel (?) article, unaware at the time that the article already cited the document, directly, four times. Some others in the discussion opposed the citation, also unaware that it was already in the article. Those four references were later removed here, which is where we stand now. ― Mandruss ☎ 13:39, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
Inderdeed, I will no longer participate in this discussion. Apparently only a certain type of women is welcome to comment, namely those convinced of the accused's guilt. Moreover, at first I felt for the accused. Now I only feel for Sulkowicz, who is self-destructing before our very eyes. Atlantacity ( talk) 05:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
It's a text that Sulkowicz allegedly sentsince they are also allegations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EvergreenFir ( talk • contribs) 06:22, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Bus stop, you added: "Sulkowicz explains the work to be an endurance performance art piece that utilizes the elements of protest." You copied a source from elsewhere in the article: "For Watson Hall, Sulkowitzc, 2 September 2014, from c. 2:00 mins." Can you give a source for that statement? Also, do we need it given that we already say it's endurance art? Sarah (SV) (talk) 22:57, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
We currently refer to summer twice and winter once. MOS:SEASON advises against that, being as we should be sensitive to the needs of readers who live below the equator (it's not their fault). But I don't know what we would do with phrases like "She spent the summer of 2014 creating the rules of engagement", or "during the previous winter break". I don't think "during the previous winter break (summer in the Southern Hemisphere)" is a good answer. Anybody have any ideas or comments? Anybody care about MOS:SEASON? ― Mandruss ☎ 19:36, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
The article quoted the accused' attorney saying there would be no charges due to "lack of reasonable suspicion." It was redirected in the article to "probable cause." They are different standards so I presume the lawyer meant what he said plainly and I removed our redirect to probable cause and let it stand as a link to reasonable suspicion. "Reasonable suspicion" is the legal term used to describe the suspicion that a crime occurred. That is the first step in investigating crimes. The second step is to determine whether there is "probable cause" to arrest someone for that crime. The difference is significant and the lawyer is saying with that language that there was lack of evidence of a crime rather than lack of evidence for arrest and conviction.
Secondly, I am also concerned that the accused is mentioned prominently on the talk page by name. He is accused of a crime and doesn't appear to be notable for any other reason. Why is his name being used in talk page and not redacted? Am I missing the reason or should we be redacting it according to our BLP policy regarding persons accused of a crime? -- DHeyward ( talk) 10:53, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
a) the way art is related to wider social issues; b) the legal, personal and social ramifications of the art performance itself.are both very topical and useful points. The name of the accused doesn't need to be mentioned to make either of them. In fact the art was praised and related to those thing before his name was known to the press. -- DHeyward ( talk) 15:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
One BLPN discussion had qualified consensus to include his name if his "full defense" is addressed in article, but unfortunately his "full defense" includes multiple BLP violations: such as texts released out of context allegedly from Sulkowicz regarding prior alleged sexual assault and prior alleged sexually transmitted disease, etc. His defense also includes this inflammatory text sent the year prior to the alleged assault which reads "fuck me in the butt", which the accused presents as an invitation to the disputed activity, and which Sulkowicz said was an expression Freshman year to mean "I'm so annoyed." This BLPN discussion concluded we should err on side of caution and not name him.
Additionally, since that BLP with that very qualified consensus, new text has been added to the article regarding a performance art video which appears to be a rape reenactment of the alleged rape which he has been accused of. Talk page consensus was we would keep his name out of the article now, to avoid hits on his name being linked to a rape reenactment video, for an alleged rape he was never charged of or convicted of. [15] -- BoboMeowCat ( talk) 14:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)