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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The OED, MW, Collins and Random House all give the accented form as the primary spelling, or even direct the reader there from the unaccented form. As one editor who claims this is "incorrect" admits, it's also the form preferred by marketers. If marketing and the dictionaries agree on the spelling, it's hard to see how it's "incorrect", just because that's not how it's spelled in Spanish. This isn't Spanish Wikipedia, so the Spanish spelling is irrelevant. As for maté meaning something else in Spanish, that's again irrelevant, as the acute accent means something different in English and Spanish. In Spanish it means the vowel is stressed, but in English it just means the vowel is pronounced -- as in café, which in RP has the same vowels, and the same stress on the first syllable, as maté. (OED: café /ˈkæfeɪ/, maté /ˈmæteɪ/.) There was also a bit of POV in this article claiming the English form is incorrect because it's not Spanish, which is fine for an opinion piece but doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Of course, if the word is given as Spanish, rather than as English, it should be spelled as in Spanish. — kwami ( talk) 23:50, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Of course the Spanish entry doesn't mention the French. It doesn't mention the English either. The etymology is Quechua > Spanish > English and, in parallel, Spanish > French > English, just as many English words with international distribution are simultaneously from French and Italian, and we can't really be sure if English "tomate" (as it was originally spelled) came from Spanish, French or Portuguese. An etymology normally only gives where a word comes from, not where it's subsequently gone. If you think the editors of MW can't tell the difference between French and Spanish, you may be right, but to make that claim on WP you'll need a RS to back you up.
Quechua doesn't distinguish between /e/ and /i/. It's quite possible the Spaniards heard it as closer to their /e/. Also, stress is penultimate in most varieties of Quechua, so the form "matí" may be a later hypercorrection. Other sources give it as just "mati", and the French dict as "mate or mati".
The word has been used in English for 300 years. The variant spellings matte and mathè attest to its assimilation, as do compound words such as maté-cup for the calabash and maté mangosteen for Garcinia purpurea. — kwami ( talk) 00:47, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
It should be mate. Mate is still relatively unknown to the English speaking world, and just because some dumb marketers spelled it maté enough times to get it into the dictionary that way doesn't mean we have to accept this hypercorrected, annoying spelling. Sgtpepper43
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The OED, MW, Collins and Random House all give the accented form as the primary spelling, or even direct the reader there from the unaccented form. As one editor who claims this is "incorrect" admits, it's also the form preferred by marketers. If marketing and the dictionaries agree on the spelling, it's hard to see how it's "incorrect", just because that's not how it's spelled in Spanish. This isn't Spanish Wikipedia, so the Spanish spelling is irrelevant. As for maté meaning something else in Spanish, that's again irrelevant, as the acute accent means something different in English and Spanish. In Spanish it means the vowel is stressed, but in English it just means the vowel is pronounced -- as in café, which in RP has the same vowels, and the same stress on the first syllable, as maté. (OED: café /ˈkæfeɪ/, maté /ˈmæteɪ/.) There was also a bit of POV in this article claiming the English form is incorrect because it's not Spanish, which is fine for an opinion piece but doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Of course, if the word is given as Spanish, rather than as English, it should be spelled as in Spanish. — kwami ( talk) 23:50, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Of course the Spanish entry doesn't mention the French. It doesn't mention the English either. The etymology is Quechua > Spanish > English and, in parallel, Spanish > French > English, just as many English words with international distribution are simultaneously from French and Italian, and we can't really be sure if English "tomate" (as it was originally spelled) came from Spanish, French or Portuguese. An etymology normally only gives where a word comes from, not where it's subsequently gone. If you think the editors of MW can't tell the difference between French and Spanish, you may be right, but to make that claim on WP you'll need a RS to back you up.
Quechua doesn't distinguish between /e/ and /i/. It's quite possible the Spaniards heard it as closer to their /e/. Also, stress is penultimate in most varieties of Quechua, so the form "matí" may be a later hypercorrection. Other sources give it as just "mati", and the French dict as "mate or mati".
The word has been used in English for 300 years. The variant spellings matte and mathè attest to its assimilation, as do compound words such as maté-cup for the calabash and maté mangosteen for Garcinia purpurea. — kwami ( talk) 00:47, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
It should be mate. Mate is still relatively unknown to the English speaking world, and just because some dumb marketers spelled it maté enough times to get it into the dictionary that way doesn't mean we have to accept this hypercorrected, annoying spelling. Sgtpepper43