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It seems to me that both User:Lvivske and User:GlaubePL have broken the WP:1RR restriction on this article (this needs double-checking to be sure). One option is to block both of them; another option is a period of full protection. Please comment if you have a recommendation of how to deal with this. The talk discussion is going fairly well but L. and G. are not waiting for it to reach a conclusion. EdJohnston ( talk) 22:13, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Let's not block anyone. Yet. Both users are participating in talk page discussion and the 1RR restriction was placed some time ago so it's very possible that 1RR was broken simply because people forgot/were not aware of it. At this point, a reminder (which is what this is) is sufficient. Also, I don't think protection is yet needed though that may become the case.
I would like to remind the participants that "he who wins" is not "he who reverts the most" but "he who reverts last". And reverting last means "convincing others that their view is supported by sources" and establishing consensus. VolunteerMarek 00:20, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
VM, there was absolutely no justification for this en-masse revert
[1]. The Huta part was one thing, we're discussing that now, but the other various edits being reverted in there under some guise of "he just doesn't like it" when all of them had summaries. Not to mention, there were other various copy edits, grammar, and other small changes included in there. To make matters worse, it hasn't even been 24 hours since your last attack on my edits, meaning you're now violating the 1RR on the article.
[2] --
Львівське (
говорити) 06:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
NOTE: John Paul Himka is not Ukrainian. I think born in Canada (French Canadian mother?)
Here is the current version (3/2/2012):
= Historian | = Poli Sci | = Research |
Author | Nat | Volhynia | Galicia | VOL+GAL | V+G+P | E. POL | Source | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Timothy Snyder |
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50k | - | - | - | In Past and Present | ||
"" "" | >40k | 10k | - | - | Memory and Power, 2002 | 10k is in March '44, >40k in July '43 | ||
"" "" | 40-60k in '43 | 25k | - | 5k | The Reconstruction of Nations, 2004 | 5k is Lublin and Rzeszów; "killed by UPA" | ||
Grzegorz Motyka |
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40-60k | - | - | 80-100k | 6-8k | W kręgu Łun w Bieszczadach, 2009, page 13 | net is from '43 to '47 |
"" "" | 40-60k | 30-40k | - | 100k | Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji "Wisła", 2011, pages 447-448 | |||
Ivan Katchanovski |
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35-60k | - | - | - | Terrorists or National Heroes? Politics of the OUN and the UPA in Ukraine | Katchanovski considers the lower bound 35k to be more likely; cited Snyder, Hrytsiuk | |
Grzegorz Hryciuk |
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35-60k | - | - | - | “Vtraty naselennia na Volyni u 1941-1944rr.” Ukraina-Polshcha: Vazhki Pytannia, Vol. 5. Warsaw: Tyrsa, 2001 | Cited by Katchanovski | |
"" "" | 35.7-60k | - | - | - | Hryciuk G. Przemiany narodowosciowe i ludnosciowe w Galicji Wschodniej i na Wolyniu w latach 1931–1948 / G. Hryciuk. – Torun, 2005. – S. 279. | Cited by Kalischuk | ||
"" "" | - | 20-24 | - | - | Straty ludnosci w Galicji Wschodniej w latach 1941–1945 / G. Hryciuk // Polska–Ukraina: trudne pytania. – Warszawa, 2000. – T. 6. – S. 279, 290, 294. | Cited by Kalischuk; from 43-46; 8820 in '43-mid'44; "according to relevant contemporary Polish sources" | ||
"" "" | 35.7-60k | 20-25k | - | G.Hryciuk, Przemiany narodowosciowe i ludnosciowe w Galicji Wschodniej i na Wolyniu w latach 1931–1948, Toruń 2005, pp.279,315 | for Galicia "primary balance" relied on "fragmentary and often incomplete documentation" and witnesses' testimonies | |||
P.R. Magocsi |
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- | - | - | 50k | Magocsi; A History of Ukraine, p 681 | “among the more reasonable estimates" | |
Niall Fergusson |
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- | - | 60-80k | - | The war of the world, 2007 citation needed | Fergusson is citing other authors (which ones?) | |
John Paul Himka |
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- | - | 100k | - | Interventions: Challenging the Myths of Twentieth-Century Ukrainian history, 2001 | ||
Per Anders Rudling |
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40-70k | - | - | 7k | Theory and Practice, 2006 | Problems with Rudling noted below | |
Rossolinki-Liebe | - | - | 70-100k | - | The Ukrainian national revolution (2011), Celebrating Fascism... (2010) | I'm having trouble finding the actual source - it may be referred to here. | ||
Ewa Siemaszko |
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60k | 70k | 130k | 133k | Bilans zbrodni, 2010 [4] | According Rudling it is most extensive study of the Polish casualties (Rudling, "The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust...", p.50) | |
Marek Jasiak |
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- | - | - | 60-70k | Redrawing Nations, p174 | "In Podole, Volhynia, and Lublin" | |
Terles | 50k | 60-70k | - | 100-200k | In Ethnic Cleansing p61 | |||
Karta |
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35k | 29.8k | - | - | 6.5k | "Polska-Ukraina", t.7, 2000, p.159, cited by Kalishchuk: here | Karta based mostly on: Siemaszko for Volhynia (documented number) and Cz.Blicharski for Tarnopol voivodsh. |
Katarina Wolczuk |
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- | - | - | 60-100k | “The Difficulties of Polish–Ukrainian Historical Reconciliation,” paper published by the Royal Institute of International Affairs, London, 2002, cited by Marples | ||
Alexander Gogun |
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25k+ | - | - | Деятельность вооружённых националистических формирований на террито-рии западных областей УССР (1943–1949), 2005 | Historian @ Postdam, Research fellow @ Harvard | ||
Common communicate of PL and UKR historians |
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50-60k | 20-25k | - | 5-6k | "Polska-Ukraina: trudne pytania", 2000, t. 9, p.403. | "Polish caualties acc. to Polish sources" | |
Ryszard Torzecki |
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30-40k | 30-40k | 80-100k | 10-20k (Polesie i Lublin) | R. Torzecki, Polacy i Ukraińcy. Sprawa ukraińska podczas II wojny światowej na terenie II Rzeczypospolitej, 1993, p. 267 | ||
IPN |
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60-80k | - | - | - | Oddziałowa Komisja w Lublinie, January 2012 | killed by Ukrainian nationalists, 1939-1945? | |
Norman Davies |
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- | - | - | hundreds of thousands | 'God's playground. A history of Poland', Oxford University Press, 2005, p. 350 | ethnic cleansing | |
Czesław Partacz |
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- | - | - | 134-200k | Przemilczane w ukraińskiej historiografii przyczyny ludobójstwa popełnionego przez OUN-UPA na ludności polskiej [in:] Prawda historyczna na prawda polityczna w badaniach naukowych. Przykład ludobójstwa na Kresach Południowo-Wschodniej Polski w latach 1939-1946, Bogusław Paź (edition), Wrocław 2011 | ||
Lucyna Kulińska |
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- | - | - | 150-200k | "Dzieci Kresów III", Kraków 2009, p.467 | ||
Anna M. Cienciala |
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- | - | 40-60k | The Rebirth of Poland. University of Kansas, lecture notes by professor Anna M. Cienciala, 2004 | During WWII, the Bandera faction of the Ukrainian Insurrectionary Army (UPA) murdered 40,000-60,000 Poles living in the villages of former Volhynia and former East Galicia | ||
Pertti Ahonen et al. | - | - | 100,000 | Pertti Ahonen, Gustavo Corni, Jerzy Kochanowski, Rainer Schulze, Tamás Stark, Barbara Stelzl-Marx, People on the Move: Population Transfers and Ethnic Cleansing Policies During World War II and Its Aftermath. Berg Publishers. 2008. p. 99. | 100,000 killed+300,000 refugees (in ethnic cleansing conducted by Ukrainian nationalists) |
Author | Nat | Volhynia | Galicia | VOL+GAL | V+G+P | E. POL | Source | Notes | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Grzegorz Motyka |
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2-3k | - | - | 10-20k | 8-12k | W kregu łun w Bieszczadach, Rytm 2009, page 13 | 1943-1947, The number for total includes those killed in Volhynia, Galicia, territories of present day (eastern) Poland | |
"" "" | 2-3k | 1-2k | - | 10/11-15k | 8-10k | Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji "Wisła", 2011, page 448 | 1943-1947; According to Motyka, numbers of Ukrainian casualties from hands of Poles >= 30k are "simply pulled out of thin air". | ||
"" "" | - | - | 8.3k | 15-20k | 10-12k | "Polish reaction to the actions of the UPA: the scope and course of punitive" p28 2003 verification needed | Cited by Kalishchuk; period 1943-1948 | ||
P.A. Rudling |
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20k | - | +11k | in "Historical Representation of the Wartime Accounts of the Activities of the OUN..." | Cites Maksymiuk “Ukraine, Poland Seek Reconciliation
Over Grisly History.” citation needed | |||
P. R. Magocsi |
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- | - | 20k | Magocsi; A History of Ukraine, p 681 | “among the more reasonable estimates" | |||
T. Snyder |
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10k | - | - | Past and Present citation needed | "Over the course of 1943, perhabs ten thousand Ukrainian civilians were killed by Polish self-defence units, Soviet partisans, Nazi policemen". | |||
"" "" | - | - | - | +5k | The reconstruction of nations citation needed | in Lublin and Rzeszów | |||
Rossolinski-Liebe | - | - | 10-20k | Celebrating Fascism... citation needed | both UPA members and civilians, during and after the war. Rossolinski cites Motyka's estimation of 2006. | ||||
Katarina Wolczuk |
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- | - | 15-30k | UK scholar. Cited by Marples. | ||||
Katrina Witt | - | - | 15-30k | Ukrainian Memory and Victimhood, p101 | Cited Marples, who cites Wolczuk. | ||||
Karta |
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unknown | unknown | - | 7.5k | "Polska-Ukraina", t.7, 2000, p.159, cited by Kalishchuk: here | |||
Zashkilniak L. and M. Krykun |
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- | - | 35k | Zashkilniak L., M. Krykun History of Poland: from ancient times to the present day / L. Over- Shkilnyak - Lviv, 2002. - p. 527 | Cited by Kalishchuk. | |||
Alexander Gogun |
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10k+ | - | - | Деятельность вооружённых националистических формирований на террито-рии западных областей УССР (1943–1949), 2005 | Historian @ Postdam, Research fellow @ Harvard | |||
Anna M. Cienciala |
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- | - | - | 20k | - | The Rebirth of Poland. University of Kansas, lecture notes by professor Anna M. Cienciala, 2004 | ...the Poles killed some 20,000 Ukrainians, mostly in former East Galicia in reprisal. |
The article needs context -- what lead to the rise of OUN. Where are the citations re how Ukrainians were not afforded basic rights under Polish rule -- restrictions on property rights that left many Ukrainians in the most abject poverty (example: children in subcarpathia suffering from night blindness due to malnutrition). At the same time, the Polish governnment was settling Poles from the west in the region, giving them land. Polish police were in every village. Landowners lorded over locals with impunity. There were also severe limits to higher education for Ukrainians. In short, many Ukrainians saw no future for themselves as individuals or as a people within the Polish state. There was no chance of getting hired for a state job unless a Ukrainian converted to R.C. The article states "The political conflicts escalated in the Second Polish Republic during the interwar period, particularly in the 1930s as a result of a cycle of terrorist actions by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, formed in Poland, and the ensuing state repressions.[12]" -- I would say Political conflicts escalated as a result of gross social injustices and inequality between Ukrainians and Poles, and some Ukrainians were attracted to extremist positions. It doesn't excuse massacres to understand the desperation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zajchyk ( talk • contribs) 03:26, 17 August 2012 (UTC)<!- Zajchyk
I think everybody in this forum, including administration, should read Per Rudling's piece "The OUN, The UPA and the Holocaust" which is about Ukrainian nationalists war crimes' denial (already linked): [5]. Let me cite:
Denial of the fascist and anti-Semitic nature of the OUN, its war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and participation in the Holocaust have become central components of the intellectual history of the Ukrainian diaspora
(page20)
the narrative of denial and myth making around the OUN-UPA is now again mostly the preserve of the extreme right in the diaspora and Ukraine proper.
(page 38)
Additionally, for Polish reading people, examples how this denial looks in practise: [6] (article how Ukrainian nationalists denied crimes in Ostrówki and Wola Ostrowiecka). I think Wikipedia administration should understand that every massive crime has it's deniers and Volhynian slaughter is not an exception. GlaubePL ( talk) 22:10, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Simultaneously, steps were undertaken to eliminate "foreign elements" in Ukraine. OUN-B posters and leaflets incited the Ukrainian population to murder Poles and "Judeo-Muscovites". Since the majority of Jews in German-occuppied Ukraine had already perished at the hands of the Nazis, the OUN-B concentrated its assault on Poles. In February 1943 ,taking into account the possibility of Germany's defeat, the Third Conference of the OUN-B finalized its plans. Fearing that the Polish-Ukrainian conflict would compel Poles to gravitate toward an alliance with Soviet power-base in Western Ukraine, the OUN-B leadership also reasoned that the victorious Allies, who would determine the postwar border settlements, would be forced to recognize ethnically homogenous Ukrainian lands as a fait acompli. In the late winter and early spring of 1943 , the assault on Polish settlements began. Backed by peasant self-defence units, the OUN-B detachments attacked Polish villages at night or in the early morning, butchering all inhabitants regardless age or sex.
Another Lvivskie's edition:
[8]. The number of Polish victims in Galicia according to Snyder decreased from 25k to 20k while Snyder writes about 25k. Ukrainian casualties "in the region" Lvivskie stated as high as 2k-20k while cited source (Motyka "Od rzezi...") dismisses the number of 20k! (acc. to Motyka it was 10-15k). Besides, "the region" was not only Volhynia and Galicia, but also Lublin district. So, these editions had nothing to do with WER rules.
GlaubePL (
talk) 18:56, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Next Lvivskie's edition: [9]. The source says about 50-60,000 victims in Volhynia, Lwivskie wrote: 35,000. GlaubePL ( talk) 20:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
In terms of the figure in the lede and the infobox - what exactly is the objection here? The present figures reflect what sources say. The only alternative I see is changing them to the figures of Siemaszko (casualties of up to 140,000 Poles killed) which is the number given in some Western sources like Rudling. There is the Katchanovski number of "more than 35,000", but 1) Katchanovski is a public policy guy not a historian, 2) it's not clear what he's basing this on and 3) "more than 35,000" is very much consistent with the 40,000-60,000 for Volhynia given by other sources, 4) his numbers are for Volhynia alone.
So please, leave the numbers alone. VolunteerMarek 01:44, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry but these tags [13], [14], as well as some of the other ones you've been littering the article with are completely unwarranted. You're basically putting them in because you have been unable to force through your own version - unsupported by sources - of the article. That is not a good reason for including such tags. VolunteerMarek 00:49, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Demonizing the enemy is common practice, but has no place in an encyclopedia. Much of the information regarding brutality on both sides is all hearsay and cannot be backed up. Bandurist ( talk) 16:37, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes I will. BTW why was the {{Systemic bias|European slant |bias=the Polish historical narrative |date=March 2012}}
tag removed? 12:36, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
(Outdent) The article currently seems nuetral to me (though I alone do not represent consensus). Faustian ( talk) 14:39, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Massacre-porn? Volhynia sloughter was the worst genocide ever, I am not talking about the victim numbers but about cruelty madness in UPA side. Dont try to compare genocide made by Ukrainian nationalist with some "forced conversions". This proofs nothing. In II Rzeczpospolita Ukrainians had same rights as now Poles in Ukraina. But it was about 80 years ago! Now Poles even dont have any own house for minority in Lwów, most churches were converted to Greek Catholics churchers.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 19:11, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
So, the readers of Wikipedia are not allowed to know that Holy See was informed about Volhynian massacres, because Szych was biased according to you. We should inform the Pope. GlaubePL ( talk) 19:23, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Just a note but I removed a large chunk of text on a massacre that occurred. According to the text, it said that the SS Galizen and Nazis did it, not the UPA/OUN. On these grounds, I removed it as it is unrelated to the UPA massacres which are the topic of this article.-- Львівське ( говорити) 00:45, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
One of the most infamous massacres took place on February 28, 1944, in the Polish village of Huta Pieniacka, with over 1,000 inhabitants. The village served as a shelter for refugees including Polish Jews,[93] as well as a recuperation base for Polish and Communist partisans. One AK unit was active there. In the winter of 1944 a Soviet partisan unit numbering 1,000 was stationed in the village for two weeks.[93][94][94] Huta Pieniacka's villagers, although poor, organized a well-fortified and armed self-defense unit that fought off a Ukrainian and German reconnaissance attack on February 23, 1944.[95] Two soldiers of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Galicia (1st Ukrainian) Division of the Waffen-SS were killed and one wounded by the villagers. On February 28, elements of the Ukrainian Division from Brody returned with 500-600 men assisted by a group of civilian nationalists. The killing spree lasted all day. Kazimierz Wojciechowski, the commander of the Polish self-defense unit, was drenched with gasoline and burned alive at the main square. The village was utterly destroyed and all of its occupants killed.[94] The civilians, mostly women and children, were rounded up at a church, divided and locked in barns which were set on fire.[96] Estimates of casualties in the Huta Pieniacka massacre vary, and include 500 (Ukrainian archives),[97] over 1,000 (Tadeusz Piotrowski),[98] and 1,200 (Sol Littman).[99] Some historians deny the role of the Ukrainian 14th SS Galician Division in the killings, and attribute them entirely to German units, while others disagree.[93][verification needed] According to IPN investigation, the crime was committed by the 4th battalion of the Ukrainian 14th SS Division.[96] A military journal of the Ukrainian 14th SS Galician Division condemned the killing of Poles. In a March 2, 1944 article directed to the Ukrainian youth, written by military leaders, Soviet partisans were blamed for the murders of Poles and Ukrainians, and the authors stated that "If God forbid, among those who committed such inhuman acts, a Ukrainian hand was found, it will be forever excluded from the Ukrainian national community."[93] According to Yale historian Timothy Snyder, the Ukrainian 14th SS Galician Division's role in the ethnic cleansing of Poles from western Ukraine was marginal.[100]
-- Львівське ( говорити) 17:13, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
In Huta Pieniacka UPA SS-Galizien together made massacre of Poles.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 09:57, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Lvivske, read more. GlaubePL ( talk) 13:02, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
In this weird edit, why was the content from the OUN reports removed as "propaganda" (it was an internal military report, how is that propaganda? lol) but 'Polish underground reports' are left in without a problem. [21] This really speaks to the systemic Polish bias going on in this article. To make matters worse, the removed material was from Ilyushin, an historian, but the stuff left in has absolutely no source whatsoever. What's going on here? -- Львівське ( говорити) 06:31, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
There is no informations about anti-Polish (mosty against civilians) actions by UWO and OUN, pl:Pierwsze wystąpienie UWO, pl:Drugie wystąpienie UWO, pl:Organizacja_Ukraińskich_Nacjonalistów#Kalendarium_zamach.C3.B3w, pl:Dywersja OUN w 1939 roku. In 1939 about 2-3 thousand civilians died from OUN hands.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 09:18, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
According to the Ukrainian historian, [1] Yaroslav Tsaruk, [2] who studied the materials collected by Siemaszko from Polish villagers, the number of ethnic Poles given by them, in some of the villages he is familiar with, does not correspond with the Ukrainian statistical data. [3] According to Tsaruk, Siemaszko included in the number of Polish casualties those who emigrated before the commencement of these hostilities, and that Siemaszko in her book included colonies, subdivisions of villages and population points which were never separate administrative units, thus enlarging the number of Polish population points. [4] Siemaszko also minimized or fails to mention the murders of Ukrainian civilians. [5] Tsaruk stated that in the Volodymyr region initially there were attacks on Ukrainian villages by Polish-German police units which were retaliated in self-defence. According to Siemaszko 1915 Poles died there in the hands of Ukrainian Nationalists. According to Tsaruk - 430. [5] Siemaszko replied in her book by stating that Tsaruk's research is based on statements made by local Ukrainians long after the war and "explained by psychological defense mechanisms". [6] Ukrainian historian Ihor Ilyushin echoes Tsaruk's observations, questioning whether Siemaszko's approach, based on testimony from one side, can be truly scholarly, objective and impartial, and shows mistakes in Siemaszko's work. Ilyushin also states that because her father was a participant at the central time of the conflict he is not a credible witness. [7] Bandurist ( talk) 00:30, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Siemaszko's numbers of victims are supported by all historians - Polish and others, in Tsaruk side, even Ukrainians doubt about his reaserches.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 09:07, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Meanwhile, Ukraine badly needs critical and professional discussion on the OUN. The sole avoidance of open discussion on OUN and massacres of the civilian population, which it perpetrated, only more marginalizes Ukrainian historical science, outlying [?] it from the Western research...
[CIA was]assisting their creation of semiacademic institutions and/or academic postions at established universities. From these formal and informal networks the pronationalist scholars promoted, with some success, self-serving, apologetic accounts of the past of the OUN-UPA, and, in some cases, of their own wartime activities. The line between scholarship and diaspora politics was often blurred, as nationalist scholars combined propaganda and activism with scholarly work. Lebed’s circle never condemned the crimes or the mass murders of the OUN, let alone admitted that they had taken place. On the contrary, it made denial, obfuscation, and white-washing of the wartime activities of the OUN and the UPA a central aspect of its intellectual activities. [Rudling, "The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust...", p.19]
Following the establishment of academic institutions on an “ethnic” basis, the nationalists’ selective accounts of the past began appearing with established academic publishers and made inroads into the academic mainstream. From the 1970s, a new generation of nationalist academics, sympathetic to the OUN legacy, and mastering the language of political correctness, came to dominate the field of Ukrainian studies. Following the collapse of the USSR, apologetics for the OUN and UPA were increasingly articulated in terms of anti-colonialism, as the voice of the subaltern, and, in Canada, under the aegis of official multiculturalism. The pronationalist historians have generally failed to treat their nationalist heroes as objects of inquiry and instead used them as platforms to defend the nationalist mythologies into which they were socialized. Until recently, there were almost no critical studies of the Ukrainian research institutes themsleves. ["The OUN..., p.20]
This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations, and the editors achieve consensus on the neutrality. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 17:23, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
After the Soviet "liberation" some Poles joined Istrebitelni otriady NKVD and particpated in crimes. Xx236 ( talk) 10:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Any reliable source for those? I'll wait before removing them. Faustian ( talk) 14:22, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Ukraine, Poland Seek Reconciliation Over Grisly History, Jan Maksymiuk, RFE/RL, May 12, 2006
Who is Jan Maksymiuk? Xx236 ( talk) 09:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
With all due respect Jan Maksymiuk is a Belarus activist. I don't know about his UPA research. "According to Ukrainian estimates, the AK may have killed in retaliation as many as 20,000 Ukrainians in Volhynia." - "May have". Xx236 ( talk) 08:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC) Rudling quotes Maksymiuk, who quotes unknown Ukrainian sources using words "May have". Rudling's line should be removed from the table, it's Ukrainian POV of unknown origins. Xx236 ( talk) 08:55, 30 April 2013 (UTC) [26] Ukrainian source says "21 000 - 24 000 of Ukrainians in all areas". Xx236 ( talk) 09:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
New "Więź" publishes an article [32] by an Ukrainian author uk:Портнов Андрій Володимирович (історик). I don't have the article, perhaps someone does and would be so kind to summarize it? A shorter version in Ukrainian [33] Xx236 ( talk) 07:09, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
We don't have an article about Портнов Андрій Володимирович. Xx236 ( talk) 07:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Twice almost the same text. Xx236 ( talk) 07:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Why to quote an obsolete (2000) text? Xx236 ( talk) 10:26, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
The paragraph doesn't infom about Ukrainian victims of Ukrainian formations. According to Timothy Snyder the number of Ukrainian victims of Ukrainians was comparable to the number of Polish victims in 1943. Xx236 ( talk) 10:29, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Do you continue the dispute or the tag should be removed? Xx236 ( talk) 09:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
The article needs improvement, unless it is indeed propaganda, e.g. Why have entire OUN section duplicating another article? Xobbitua ( talk) 11:40, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
The current title of the article reflects a translation of what Polish historiography calls the event, and only concerns the Polish point of view of the event. Is there not a neutral, descriptive title that can be used, or a common use english title? It seems to be partisan to choose "Volhynian Massacre" over the Ukrainian title "Volyn Tragedy", or to ignore Ukrainian deaths to prop up Polish losses. -- Львівське ( говорити) 21:42, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
I think the most recent past discussion on this matter is here [35], though I think there has been half a dozen of them. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 06:23, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Seems this article is still under 'ownership' and only allowed to represent the NPOV Polish-centric narrative with VM deleting other users' edits which show competing historiography. VM, I like you, but not these POVy edits against myself and others. -- LeVivsky ( ಠ_ಠ) 20:27, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
It seems to me that both User:Lvivske and User:GlaubePL have broken the WP:1RR restriction on this article (this needs double-checking to be sure). One option is to block both of them; another option is a period of full protection. Please comment if you have a recommendation of how to deal with this. The talk discussion is going fairly well but L. and G. are not waiting for it to reach a conclusion. EdJohnston ( talk) 22:13, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Let's not block anyone. Yet. Both users are participating in talk page discussion and the 1RR restriction was placed some time ago so it's very possible that 1RR was broken simply because people forgot/were not aware of it. At this point, a reminder (which is what this is) is sufficient. Also, I don't think protection is yet needed though that may become the case.
I would like to remind the participants that "he who wins" is not "he who reverts the most" but "he who reverts last". And reverting last means "convincing others that their view is supported by sources" and establishing consensus. VolunteerMarek 00:20, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
VM, there was absolutely no justification for this en-masse revert
[1]. The Huta part was one thing, we're discussing that now, but the other various edits being reverted in there under some guise of "he just doesn't like it" when all of them had summaries. Not to mention, there were other various copy edits, grammar, and other small changes included in there. To make matters worse, it hasn't even been 24 hours since your last attack on my edits, meaning you're now violating the 1RR on the article.
[2] --
Львівське (
говорити) 06:25, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
NOTE: John Paul Himka is not Ukrainian. I think born in Canada (French Canadian mother?)
Here is the current version (3/2/2012):
= Historian | = Poli Sci | = Research |
Author | Nat | Volhynia | Galicia | VOL+GAL | V+G+P | E. POL | Source | Notes |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Timothy Snyder |
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50k | - | - | - | In Past and Present | ||
"" "" | >40k | 10k | - | - | Memory and Power, 2002 | 10k is in March '44, >40k in July '43 | ||
"" "" | 40-60k in '43 | 25k | - | 5k | The Reconstruction of Nations, 2004 | 5k is Lublin and Rzeszów; "killed by UPA" | ||
Grzegorz Motyka |
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40-60k | - | - | 80-100k | 6-8k | W kręgu Łun w Bieszczadach, 2009, page 13 | net is from '43 to '47 |
"" "" | 40-60k | 30-40k | - | 100k | Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji "Wisła", 2011, pages 447-448 | |||
Ivan Katchanovski |
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35-60k | - | - | - | Terrorists or National Heroes? Politics of the OUN and the UPA in Ukraine | Katchanovski considers the lower bound 35k to be more likely; cited Snyder, Hrytsiuk | |
Grzegorz Hryciuk |
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35-60k | - | - | - | “Vtraty naselennia na Volyni u 1941-1944rr.” Ukraina-Polshcha: Vazhki Pytannia, Vol. 5. Warsaw: Tyrsa, 2001 | Cited by Katchanovski | |
"" "" | 35.7-60k | - | - | - | Hryciuk G. Przemiany narodowosciowe i ludnosciowe w Galicji Wschodniej i na Wolyniu w latach 1931–1948 / G. Hryciuk. – Torun, 2005. – S. 279. | Cited by Kalischuk | ||
"" "" | - | 20-24 | - | - | Straty ludnosci w Galicji Wschodniej w latach 1941–1945 / G. Hryciuk // Polska–Ukraina: trudne pytania. – Warszawa, 2000. – T. 6. – S. 279, 290, 294. | Cited by Kalischuk; from 43-46; 8820 in '43-mid'44; "according to relevant contemporary Polish sources" | ||
"" "" | 35.7-60k | 20-25k | - | G.Hryciuk, Przemiany narodowosciowe i ludnosciowe w Galicji Wschodniej i na Wolyniu w latach 1931–1948, Toruń 2005, pp.279,315 | for Galicia "primary balance" relied on "fragmentary and often incomplete documentation" and witnesses' testimonies | |||
P.R. Magocsi |
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- | - | - | 50k | Magocsi; A History of Ukraine, p 681 | “among the more reasonable estimates" | |
Niall Fergusson |
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- | - | 60-80k | - | The war of the world, 2007 citation needed | Fergusson is citing other authors (which ones?) | |
John Paul Himka |
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- | - | 100k | - | Interventions: Challenging the Myths of Twentieth-Century Ukrainian history, 2001 | ||
Per Anders Rudling |
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40-70k | - | - | 7k | Theory and Practice, 2006 | Problems with Rudling noted below | |
Rossolinki-Liebe | - | - | 70-100k | - | The Ukrainian national revolution (2011), Celebrating Fascism... (2010) | I'm having trouble finding the actual source - it may be referred to here. | ||
Ewa Siemaszko |
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60k | 70k | 130k | 133k | Bilans zbrodni, 2010 [4] | According Rudling it is most extensive study of the Polish casualties (Rudling, "The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust...", p.50) | |
Marek Jasiak |
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- | - | - | 60-70k | Redrawing Nations, p174 | "In Podole, Volhynia, and Lublin" | |
Terles | 50k | 60-70k | - | 100-200k | In Ethnic Cleansing p61 | |||
Karta |
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35k | 29.8k | - | - | 6.5k | "Polska-Ukraina", t.7, 2000, p.159, cited by Kalishchuk: here | Karta based mostly on: Siemaszko for Volhynia (documented number) and Cz.Blicharski for Tarnopol voivodsh. |
Katarina Wolczuk |
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- | - | - | 60-100k | “The Difficulties of Polish–Ukrainian Historical Reconciliation,” paper published by the Royal Institute of International Affairs, London, 2002, cited by Marples | ||
Alexander Gogun |
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25k+ | - | - | Деятельность вооружённых националистических формирований на террито-рии западных областей УССР (1943–1949), 2005 | Historian @ Postdam, Research fellow @ Harvard | ||
Common communicate of PL and UKR historians |
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50-60k | 20-25k | - | 5-6k | "Polska-Ukraina: trudne pytania", 2000, t. 9, p.403. | "Polish caualties acc. to Polish sources" | |
Ryszard Torzecki |
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30-40k | 30-40k | 80-100k | 10-20k (Polesie i Lublin) | R. Torzecki, Polacy i Ukraińcy. Sprawa ukraińska podczas II wojny światowej na terenie II Rzeczypospolitej, 1993, p. 267 | ||
IPN |
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60-80k | - | - | - | Oddziałowa Komisja w Lublinie, January 2012 | killed by Ukrainian nationalists, 1939-1945? | |
Norman Davies |
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- | - | - | hundreds of thousands | 'God's playground. A history of Poland', Oxford University Press, 2005, p. 350 | ethnic cleansing | |
Czesław Partacz |
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- | - | - | 134-200k | Przemilczane w ukraińskiej historiografii przyczyny ludobójstwa popełnionego przez OUN-UPA na ludności polskiej [in:] Prawda historyczna na prawda polityczna w badaniach naukowych. Przykład ludobójstwa na Kresach Południowo-Wschodniej Polski w latach 1939-1946, Bogusław Paź (edition), Wrocław 2011 | ||
Lucyna Kulińska |
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- | - | - | 150-200k | "Dzieci Kresów III", Kraków 2009, p.467 | ||
Anna M. Cienciala |
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- | - | 40-60k | The Rebirth of Poland. University of Kansas, lecture notes by professor Anna M. Cienciala, 2004 | During WWII, the Bandera faction of the Ukrainian Insurrectionary Army (UPA) murdered 40,000-60,000 Poles living in the villages of former Volhynia and former East Galicia | ||
Pertti Ahonen et al. | - | - | 100,000 | Pertti Ahonen, Gustavo Corni, Jerzy Kochanowski, Rainer Schulze, Tamás Stark, Barbara Stelzl-Marx, People on the Move: Population Transfers and Ethnic Cleansing Policies During World War II and Its Aftermath. Berg Publishers. 2008. p. 99. | 100,000 killed+300,000 refugees (in ethnic cleansing conducted by Ukrainian nationalists) |
Author | Nat | Volhynia | Galicia | VOL+GAL | V+G+P | E. POL | Source | Notes | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Grzegorz Motyka |
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2-3k | - | - | 10-20k | 8-12k | W kregu łun w Bieszczadach, Rytm 2009, page 13 | 1943-1947, The number for total includes those killed in Volhynia, Galicia, territories of present day (eastern) Poland | |
"" "" | 2-3k | 1-2k | - | 10/11-15k | 8-10k | Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji "Wisła", 2011, page 448 | 1943-1947; According to Motyka, numbers of Ukrainian casualties from hands of Poles >= 30k are "simply pulled out of thin air". | ||
"" "" | - | - | 8.3k | 15-20k | 10-12k | "Polish reaction to the actions of the UPA: the scope and course of punitive" p28 2003 verification needed | Cited by Kalishchuk; period 1943-1948 | ||
P.A. Rudling |
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20k | - | +11k | in "Historical Representation of the Wartime Accounts of the Activities of the OUN..." | Cites Maksymiuk “Ukraine, Poland Seek Reconciliation
Over Grisly History.” citation needed | |||
P. R. Magocsi |
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- | - | 20k | Magocsi; A History of Ukraine, p 681 | “among the more reasonable estimates" | |||
T. Snyder |
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10k | - | - | Past and Present citation needed | "Over the course of 1943, perhabs ten thousand Ukrainian civilians were killed by Polish self-defence units, Soviet partisans, Nazi policemen". | |||
"" "" | - | - | - | +5k | The reconstruction of nations citation needed | in Lublin and Rzeszów | |||
Rossolinski-Liebe | - | - | 10-20k | Celebrating Fascism... citation needed | both UPA members and civilians, during and after the war. Rossolinski cites Motyka's estimation of 2006. | ||||
Katarina Wolczuk |
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- | - | 15-30k | UK scholar. Cited by Marples. | ||||
Katrina Witt | - | - | 15-30k | Ukrainian Memory and Victimhood, p101 | Cited Marples, who cites Wolczuk. | ||||
Karta |
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unknown | unknown | - | 7.5k | "Polska-Ukraina", t.7, 2000, p.159, cited by Kalishchuk: here | |||
Zashkilniak L. and M. Krykun |
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- | - | 35k | Zashkilniak L., M. Krykun History of Poland: from ancient times to the present day / L. Over- Shkilnyak - Lviv, 2002. - p. 527 | Cited by Kalishchuk. | |||
Alexander Gogun |
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10k+ | - | - | Деятельность вооружённых националистических формирований на террито-рии западных областей УССР (1943–1949), 2005 | Historian @ Postdam, Research fellow @ Harvard | |||
Anna M. Cienciala |
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- | - | - | 20k | - | The Rebirth of Poland. University of Kansas, lecture notes by professor Anna M. Cienciala, 2004 | ...the Poles killed some 20,000 Ukrainians, mostly in former East Galicia in reprisal. |
The article needs context -- what lead to the rise of OUN. Where are the citations re how Ukrainians were not afforded basic rights under Polish rule -- restrictions on property rights that left many Ukrainians in the most abject poverty (example: children in subcarpathia suffering from night blindness due to malnutrition). At the same time, the Polish governnment was settling Poles from the west in the region, giving them land. Polish police were in every village. Landowners lorded over locals with impunity. There were also severe limits to higher education for Ukrainians. In short, many Ukrainians saw no future for themselves as individuals or as a people within the Polish state. There was no chance of getting hired for a state job unless a Ukrainian converted to R.C. The article states "The political conflicts escalated in the Second Polish Republic during the interwar period, particularly in the 1930s as a result of a cycle of terrorist actions by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, formed in Poland, and the ensuing state repressions.[12]" -- I would say Political conflicts escalated as a result of gross social injustices and inequality between Ukrainians and Poles, and some Ukrainians were attracted to extremist positions. It doesn't excuse massacres to understand the desperation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zajchyk ( talk • contribs) 03:26, 17 August 2012 (UTC)<!- Zajchyk
I think everybody in this forum, including administration, should read Per Rudling's piece "The OUN, The UPA and the Holocaust" which is about Ukrainian nationalists war crimes' denial (already linked): [5]. Let me cite:
Denial of the fascist and anti-Semitic nature of the OUN, its war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and participation in the Holocaust have become central components of the intellectual history of the Ukrainian diaspora
(page20)
the narrative of denial and myth making around the OUN-UPA is now again mostly the preserve of the extreme right in the diaspora and Ukraine proper.
(page 38)
Additionally, for Polish reading people, examples how this denial looks in practise: [6] (article how Ukrainian nationalists denied crimes in Ostrówki and Wola Ostrowiecka). I think Wikipedia administration should understand that every massive crime has it's deniers and Volhynian slaughter is not an exception. GlaubePL ( talk) 22:10, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Simultaneously, steps were undertaken to eliminate "foreign elements" in Ukraine. OUN-B posters and leaflets incited the Ukrainian population to murder Poles and "Judeo-Muscovites". Since the majority of Jews in German-occuppied Ukraine had already perished at the hands of the Nazis, the OUN-B concentrated its assault on Poles. In February 1943 ,taking into account the possibility of Germany's defeat, the Third Conference of the OUN-B finalized its plans. Fearing that the Polish-Ukrainian conflict would compel Poles to gravitate toward an alliance with Soviet power-base in Western Ukraine, the OUN-B leadership also reasoned that the victorious Allies, who would determine the postwar border settlements, would be forced to recognize ethnically homogenous Ukrainian lands as a fait acompli. In the late winter and early spring of 1943 , the assault on Polish settlements began. Backed by peasant self-defence units, the OUN-B detachments attacked Polish villages at night or in the early morning, butchering all inhabitants regardless age or sex.
Another Lvivskie's edition:
[8]. The number of Polish victims in Galicia according to Snyder decreased from 25k to 20k while Snyder writes about 25k. Ukrainian casualties "in the region" Lvivskie stated as high as 2k-20k while cited source (Motyka "Od rzezi...") dismisses the number of 20k! (acc. to Motyka it was 10-15k). Besides, "the region" was not only Volhynia and Galicia, but also Lublin district. So, these editions had nothing to do with WER rules.
GlaubePL (
talk) 18:56, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Next Lvivskie's edition: [9]. The source says about 50-60,000 victims in Volhynia, Lwivskie wrote: 35,000. GlaubePL ( talk) 20:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
In terms of the figure in the lede and the infobox - what exactly is the objection here? The present figures reflect what sources say. The only alternative I see is changing them to the figures of Siemaszko (casualties of up to 140,000 Poles killed) which is the number given in some Western sources like Rudling. There is the Katchanovski number of "more than 35,000", but 1) Katchanovski is a public policy guy not a historian, 2) it's not clear what he's basing this on and 3) "more than 35,000" is very much consistent with the 40,000-60,000 for Volhynia given by other sources, 4) his numbers are for Volhynia alone.
So please, leave the numbers alone. VolunteerMarek 01:44, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry but these tags [13], [14], as well as some of the other ones you've been littering the article with are completely unwarranted. You're basically putting them in because you have been unable to force through your own version - unsupported by sources - of the article. That is not a good reason for including such tags. VolunteerMarek 00:49, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Demonizing the enemy is common practice, but has no place in an encyclopedia. Much of the information regarding brutality on both sides is all hearsay and cannot be backed up. Bandurist ( talk) 16:37, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes I will. BTW why was the {{Systemic bias|European slant |bias=the Polish historical narrative |date=March 2012}}
tag removed? 12:36, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
(Outdent) The article currently seems nuetral to me (though I alone do not represent consensus). Faustian ( talk) 14:39, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Massacre-porn? Volhynia sloughter was the worst genocide ever, I am not talking about the victim numbers but about cruelty madness in UPA side. Dont try to compare genocide made by Ukrainian nationalist with some "forced conversions". This proofs nothing. In II Rzeczpospolita Ukrainians had same rights as now Poles in Ukraina. But it was about 80 years ago! Now Poles even dont have any own house for minority in Lwów, most churches were converted to Greek Catholics churchers.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 19:11, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
So, the readers of Wikipedia are not allowed to know that Holy See was informed about Volhynian massacres, because Szych was biased according to you. We should inform the Pope. GlaubePL ( talk) 19:23, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Just a note but I removed a large chunk of text on a massacre that occurred. According to the text, it said that the SS Galizen and Nazis did it, not the UPA/OUN. On these grounds, I removed it as it is unrelated to the UPA massacres which are the topic of this article.-- Львівське ( говорити) 00:45, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
One of the most infamous massacres took place on February 28, 1944, in the Polish village of Huta Pieniacka, with over 1,000 inhabitants. The village served as a shelter for refugees including Polish Jews,[93] as well as a recuperation base for Polish and Communist partisans. One AK unit was active there. In the winter of 1944 a Soviet partisan unit numbering 1,000 was stationed in the village for two weeks.[93][94][94] Huta Pieniacka's villagers, although poor, organized a well-fortified and armed self-defense unit that fought off a Ukrainian and German reconnaissance attack on February 23, 1944.[95] Two soldiers of the 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Galicia (1st Ukrainian) Division of the Waffen-SS were killed and one wounded by the villagers. On February 28, elements of the Ukrainian Division from Brody returned with 500-600 men assisted by a group of civilian nationalists. The killing spree lasted all day. Kazimierz Wojciechowski, the commander of the Polish self-defense unit, was drenched with gasoline and burned alive at the main square. The village was utterly destroyed and all of its occupants killed.[94] The civilians, mostly women and children, were rounded up at a church, divided and locked in barns which were set on fire.[96] Estimates of casualties in the Huta Pieniacka massacre vary, and include 500 (Ukrainian archives),[97] over 1,000 (Tadeusz Piotrowski),[98] and 1,200 (Sol Littman).[99] Some historians deny the role of the Ukrainian 14th SS Galician Division in the killings, and attribute them entirely to German units, while others disagree.[93][verification needed] According to IPN investigation, the crime was committed by the 4th battalion of the Ukrainian 14th SS Division.[96] A military journal of the Ukrainian 14th SS Galician Division condemned the killing of Poles. In a March 2, 1944 article directed to the Ukrainian youth, written by military leaders, Soviet partisans were blamed for the murders of Poles and Ukrainians, and the authors stated that "If God forbid, among those who committed such inhuman acts, a Ukrainian hand was found, it will be forever excluded from the Ukrainian national community."[93] According to Yale historian Timothy Snyder, the Ukrainian 14th SS Galician Division's role in the ethnic cleansing of Poles from western Ukraine was marginal.[100]
-- Львівське ( говорити) 17:13, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
In Huta Pieniacka UPA SS-Galizien together made massacre of Poles.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 09:57, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Lvivske, read more. GlaubePL ( talk) 13:02, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
In this weird edit, why was the content from the OUN reports removed as "propaganda" (it was an internal military report, how is that propaganda? lol) but 'Polish underground reports' are left in without a problem. [21] This really speaks to the systemic Polish bias going on in this article. To make matters worse, the removed material was from Ilyushin, an historian, but the stuff left in has absolutely no source whatsoever. What's going on here? -- Львівське ( говорити) 06:31, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
There is no informations about anti-Polish (mosty against civilians) actions by UWO and OUN, pl:Pierwsze wystąpienie UWO, pl:Drugie wystąpienie UWO, pl:Organizacja_Ukraińskich_Nacjonalistów#Kalendarium_zamach.C3.B3w, pl:Dywersja OUN w 1939 roku. In 1939 about 2-3 thousand civilians died from OUN hands.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 09:18, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
According to the Ukrainian historian, [1] Yaroslav Tsaruk, [2] who studied the materials collected by Siemaszko from Polish villagers, the number of ethnic Poles given by them, in some of the villages he is familiar with, does not correspond with the Ukrainian statistical data. [3] According to Tsaruk, Siemaszko included in the number of Polish casualties those who emigrated before the commencement of these hostilities, and that Siemaszko in her book included colonies, subdivisions of villages and population points which were never separate administrative units, thus enlarging the number of Polish population points. [4] Siemaszko also minimized or fails to mention the murders of Ukrainian civilians. [5] Tsaruk stated that in the Volodymyr region initially there were attacks on Ukrainian villages by Polish-German police units which were retaliated in self-defence. According to Siemaszko 1915 Poles died there in the hands of Ukrainian Nationalists. According to Tsaruk - 430. [5] Siemaszko replied in her book by stating that Tsaruk's research is based on statements made by local Ukrainians long after the war and "explained by psychological defense mechanisms". [6] Ukrainian historian Ihor Ilyushin echoes Tsaruk's observations, questioning whether Siemaszko's approach, based on testimony from one side, can be truly scholarly, objective and impartial, and shows mistakes in Siemaszko's work. Ilyushin also states that because her father was a participant at the central time of the conflict he is not a credible witness. [7] Bandurist ( talk) 00:30, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Siemaszko's numbers of victims are supported by all historians - Polish and others, in Tsaruk side, even Ukrainians doubt about his reaserches.-- Paweł5586 ( talk) 09:07, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Meanwhile, Ukraine badly needs critical and professional discussion on the OUN. The sole avoidance of open discussion on OUN and massacres of the civilian population, which it perpetrated, only more marginalizes Ukrainian historical science, outlying [?] it from the Western research...
[CIA was]assisting their creation of semiacademic institutions and/or academic postions at established universities. From these formal and informal networks the pronationalist scholars promoted, with some success, self-serving, apologetic accounts of the past of the OUN-UPA, and, in some cases, of their own wartime activities. The line between scholarship and diaspora politics was often blurred, as nationalist scholars combined propaganda and activism with scholarly work. Lebed’s circle never condemned the crimes or the mass murders of the OUN, let alone admitted that they had taken place. On the contrary, it made denial, obfuscation, and white-washing of the wartime activities of the OUN and the UPA a central aspect of its intellectual activities. [Rudling, "The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust...", p.19]
Following the establishment of academic institutions on an “ethnic” basis, the nationalists’ selective accounts of the past began appearing with established academic publishers and made inroads into the academic mainstream. From the 1970s, a new generation of nationalist academics, sympathetic to the OUN legacy, and mastering the language of political correctness, came to dominate the field of Ukrainian studies. Following the collapse of the USSR, apologetics for the OUN and UPA were increasingly articulated in terms of anti-colonialism, as the voice of the subaltern, and, in Canada, under the aegis of official multiculturalism. The pronationalist historians have generally failed to treat their nationalist heroes as objects of inquiry and instead used them as platforms to defend the nationalist mythologies into which they were socialized. Until recently, there were almost no critical studies of the Ukrainian research institutes themsleves. ["The OUN..., p.20]
This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations, and the editors achieve consensus on the neutrality. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 17:23, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
After the Soviet "liberation" some Poles joined Istrebitelni otriady NKVD and particpated in crimes. Xx236 ( talk) 10:41, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Any reliable source for those? I'll wait before removing them. Faustian ( talk) 14:22, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
Ukraine, Poland Seek Reconciliation Over Grisly History, Jan Maksymiuk, RFE/RL, May 12, 2006
Who is Jan Maksymiuk? Xx236 ( talk) 09:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
With all due respect Jan Maksymiuk is a Belarus activist. I don't know about his UPA research. "According to Ukrainian estimates, the AK may have killed in retaliation as many as 20,000 Ukrainians in Volhynia." - "May have". Xx236 ( talk) 08:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC) Rudling quotes Maksymiuk, who quotes unknown Ukrainian sources using words "May have". Rudling's line should be removed from the table, it's Ukrainian POV of unknown origins. Xx236 ( talk) 08:55, 30 April 2013 (UTC) [26] Ukrainian source says "21 000 - 24 000 of Ukrainians in all areas". Xx236 ( talk) 09:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
New "Więź" publishes an article [32] by an Ukrainian author uk:Портнов Андрій Володимирович (історик). I don't have the article, perhaps someone does and would be so kind to summarize it? A shorter version in Ukrainian [33] Xx236 ( talk) 07:09, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
We don't have an article about Портнов Андрій Володимирович. Xx236 ( talk) 07:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Twice almost the same text. Xx236 ( talk) 07:45, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Why to quote an obsolete (2000) text? Xx236 ( talk) 10:26, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
The paragraph doesn't infom about Ukrainian victims of Ukrainian formations. According to Timothy Snyder the number of Ukrainian victims of Ukrainians was comparable to the number of Polish victims in 1943. Xx236 ( talk) 10:29, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
Do you continue the dispute or the tag should be removed? Xx236 ( talk) 09:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
The article needs improvement, unless it is indeed propaganda, e.g. Why have entire OUN section duplicating another article? Xobbitua ( talk) 11:40, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
The current title of the article reflects a translation of what Polish historiography calls the event, and only concerns the Polish point of view of the event. Is there not a neutral, descriptive title that can be used, or a common use english title? It seems to be partisan to choose "Volhynian Massacre" over the Ukrainian title "Volyn Tragedy", or to ignore Ukrainian deaths to prop up Polish losses. -- Львівське ( говорити) 21:42, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
I think the most recent past discussion on this matter is here [35], though I think there has been half a dozen of them. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 06:23, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Seems this article is still under 'ownership' and only allowed to represent the NPOV Polish-centric narrative with VM deleting other users' edits which show competing historiography. VM, I like you, but not these POVy edits against myself and others. -- LeVivsky ( ಠ_ಠ) 20:27, 10 June 2014 (UTC)