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"In Polish retaliatory actions conducted in early 1944, the Ukrainian villages of Prykhorile, Mentke, Sakhryn, Shykhoviche, and Terebin were destroyed." - this sentence is in the section "Galicia". The localities above are not Galician. This is region called Kholmchyna or (better) Lublin voivodship. GlaubePL ( talk) 19:56, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
"Father Ludwik Wrodarczyk from the village of Okop was crucified by the Ukrainians, father Stanislaw Dobrzanski from the village of Ostrowka beheaded (967 local Poles were killed with him) and father Karol Baran from the village of Korytnica was cut in half by a saw." - it should be in the section "Volhynia" and not "Galicia" because all the localities are in Volhynia. GlaubePL ( talk) 13:07, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
"In the night of February 5–6, 1944, Ukrainian groups attacked the Polish village of Barycz, near Buchach. 126 Poles were massacred, including women and children. A few days later on February 12–13, a local group of OUN under Petro Chamchuk attacked the Polish settlement of Puźniki, killing around 100 people and burning houses. Those who survived moved mostly to Prudnik." - The dates are wrong, the massacres in Barycz and Puźniki happened in 1945 and not 1944. GlaubePL ( talk) 13:10, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Why not forking the Galicia part to a separate article. Has this been discussed ? -- Lysy talk 16:10, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Don't forget to put it through the page rename process, it is not as simple as deciding amongst yourselves that a new name will be better, you need to find consensus on it as well. Chaosdruid ( talk) 03:07, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Compared to Volhynia and Galicia, the Lublin part of the story is fairly minor, so I think it's ok if it doesn't get mentioned separately. Honestly, my view on this is that I don't care that much whether it's covered in one article ("Volhynia and Galicia") or two articles ("Volyhynia" and "Galicia") as long as it is covered well and neutrally. I do see some sense in having some kind of a disambiguation/meta/general page for ... "early 20th century" Polish-Ukrainian conflicts which would direct readers to this article, as well as to Operation Vistula and other related articles. But if we do that, we should be careful that we don't start POV-forking stuff. VolunteerMarek 04:00, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
[ [1]] Bandurist ( talk) 16:39, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 03:57, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia →
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia –
This article originally covered incidents in Volhynia (a region of Poland before WW2 and currently a region of Ukraine). The scope of the article has expanded to cover Eastern Galicia (similarly a former region of Poland and now Ukraine).
Options considered have included:
There is no need to further oppose the above options. If you oppose this move, please state your propsed solution.
Op47 (
talk) 14:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
OK, now that is sort of over, I have realised that this is possibly a largely POV page. Unfotunately I did not have much spare time, as well as having no electricity for 4 days, and did not get here in time to comment.
"Ukrainian casualties at the hands of Poles during the conflict range from 2,000 to 20,000 in Volhynia,[14][15] and 20,000 for the two regions combined."
Is there a corresponding "Massacres of Ukrainians in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia" article?
If not, then can we not name it something more neutral as this seems to cover both sides. I believe it should be something like "Massacres in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia 1943-1944" Chaosdruid ( talk) 23:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
That is where you went wrong, this thread is about the article title - yet it has turned into heated discussion over how many rather than POV title
I began by suggesting that the title needs to be less pointy, less POV and more neutral in tone. I agree that "Massacre" is correct, and that the new title does cover the geographical area. What I do not agree about is that the article contains a significant number of Ukrainians massacred and yet the title suggests that only Poles were massacred.
I want you to talk about that one and only point, to find consensus, and to discuss what, if anything, can be done. If you can do that without trying to make me look like I am attacking you, then all will be fine. Chaosdruid ( talk) 15:28, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
VolunteerMarek 23:13, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Do any serious scholars make an opinion on these claims either way? All I've seen is Katchanovski refuse it.-- Львівське ( говорити) 22:34, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
All Polish historiography calls it genocide - see for example Motyka and Hryciuk, not mentioning Kresy-historians. "One commission" mentioned by Lvivskie is Polish Head Commission for investigations of war crimes and it is the body competent to apply juridical qualification. GlaubePL ( talk) 20:30, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
There is an image on the page with the caption "The mass grave discovered during the second exhumation in Wola Ostrowiecka (August 2011)". Can we confirm that this image is related to this article? The File Page says nothing of it, and inserting a random or unattributed exhumation in this article is WP:SYN (ie. murders happened in volyn, this image is of murders in volyn, therefore it must be from this event). For all we know it could be Nazi or NKVD victims-- Львівське ( говорити) 23:30, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
The version based on Magosci and misquoted Marples (in fact onesided Serchiichuk)...
Who started the cycle of massacres remains a subject of controversy and dispute. The killing of Ukrainians by Poles predated the Volhynian massacres in both Lublin and Krakow, with the 1942 massacre of Ukrainians in Chelm being the earliest such instance that would spark reprisals.
...is radical POV based on OUN-UPA propaganda. I propose more accurate version, in new section. I have it im my sandbox: [10] GlaubePL ( talk) 21:58, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
[The brochure] had clearly propagandic character thus treating it as neutral source, as it is done sometimes, has to be considered as a serious methodological error.
I see little interest here to change status quo which is extreme POV (proved by Motyka). So, sources have to speak. GlaubePL ( talk) 19:57, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
"According to Polish historian Piotr Łossowski, the method used in most of the attacks was the same. At first, local Poles were assured that nothing would happen to them. Then, at dawn, a village was surrounded by armed members of the UPA, behind whom were peasants with axes, hammers, knives, and saws. All the Poles encountered were murdered; sometimes they were herded into one spot, to make it easier. After a massacre, all goods were looted, including clothes, grain, and furniture. The final part of an attack was setting fire to the village.[90]"
One source, even attributed, is insufficient for encyclopedic documentation of WWII atrocities. For example, there are ostensibly reputable sources that state Lithuanians bludgeoned Jews to death, then sang folk songs as they sat on piles of their still-warm bodies. Utterly false. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 19:08, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
In the external links - (Polish) Genocide in Volhynia - http://www.bj.uj.edu.pl/~plok/genocide/index.html - you have a site with falsely acreditted photographs that Polish jounalists have shown were incorrectly labeled.
Fot. 12. Zdjęcie ze zbiorów dr Aleksandra Kormana z wyjaśnieniem: ŁOBOZOWA (?), pow. Tarnopol, jesień 1943 lub 1944 roku. Terroryści OUN-UPA dokonali okrutnego mordu na polskich dzieciach. W alei starych drzew, do każdego drzewa przybijali wokół małe dzieci, tworząc tzw. "wianuszki" Aleję tę, na rozwieszonym transparencie nazwali "drogą do samostijnej Ukrainy". Na zdjęciu jedno z drzew, na którym przybito czworo małych dzieci. Zdjęcie to publikuje J. Węgierski, informując, że pochodzi ono ze zbioru M. Domiszewskiego.
Which although the children are acreditted to having been killed by OUN-UPA and wrapped in barbed wire, were infact killed by their Gypsy mother some ten years earlier and the arbed wire is folds in the photograph.
I feel that this sort of site should be removed from the list.
Bandurist ( talk) 18:50, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
http://www.rzeczpospolita.pl/news.rol?newsId=1680 To nie są polskie dzieci Twierdzimy tak, ponieważ posiadamy niezaprzeczalne dowody, że wspomniane zdjęcie — pierwowzór projektu pomnika — przedstawia zupełnie inne wydarzenie. Miało ono miejsce w nocy z 11 na 12 grudnia 1923 r., cztery ofiary to dzieci cygańskie, a zabójcą była ich obłąkana matka, 32-letnia M.D. Zdarzenie jest szczegółowo opisane w pracy wydanej drukiem w 1928 r. (a zapewne też w ówczesnej prasie). publikacji, która powoływała się na artykuł z roku 1928. Obydwa teksty są publikacjami z zakresu medycyny sądowej. Pierwszy to artykuł „Psychoza szałowo-posępnicza w kazuistyce sądowo-psychiatrycznej”, zamieszczony w „Roczniku Psychiatrycznym” z 1928 r. Jego autorem był Witold Łuniewski, wieloletni dyrektor zakładu w Tworkach. Druga publikacja to „Podręcznik medycyny sądowej dla studentów i lekarzy”, wydany w 1948 r. przez Wiktora Grzywo-Dąbrowskiego, profesora Uniwersytetu Warszawskiego i członka komitetu redakcyjnego „Rocznika Psychiatrycznego”. To właśnie fakt, że zabójcą dzieci była ich matka, przyciągnął uwagę uczonych. Nieszczęsna kobieta zabiła czworo dzieci w akcie rozpaczy po aresztowaniu męża i rozpadzie grupy cygańskiej, w której dotąd żyła, w przekonaniu, że grozi im niechybna śmierć głodowa. Następnego dnia zgłosiła się na policję. Z polecenia sądu została umieszczona w zakładzie psychiatrycznym, gdzie stwierdzono u niej „psychozę szałowo-posępniczą”, dziś powiedzielibyśmy zapewne o ciężkim przypadku depresji. Jak pisze Łuniewski, jej czyn „był psychopatologiczną próbą dokonania rozszerzonego samobójstwa, którego chora nie doprowadziła do końca”.
Obydwie wymienione publikacje zawierają fotografie z miejsca zbrodni. W „Podręczniku medycyny sądowej” zamieszczono zdjęcie, które oznaczyliśmy nr II. Nie jest ono takie samo jak zdjęcie nr I. Czytelnik dostrzeże, że zdjęcie I jest jego lustrzanym odbiciem. Fotografia zamieszczona w pracy Łuniewskiego, którą oznaczyliśmy nr III, jest innym zdjęciem — przedstawia niewątpliwie tę samą scenę, ale sfotografowaną z nieco innej strony. „Przejmujący grozą obraz tej zbrodni został sfotografowany przez urząd śledczy”, pisze Łuniewski, i zapewne wykonano kilka zdjęć z różnych perspektyw. Możliwe, że w archiwach sądowych lub policyjnych zachowały się inne jeszcze zdjęcia tej sceny. Ponadto zdjęcie I różni się od pozostałych ukośnymi jasnymi liniami, które kilku komentatorów wzięło błędnie za drut kolczasty. Są to zapewne ślady zgięć pierwotnej fotografii lub zarysowań na negatywie. Dwa lata później zdjęcie pojawia się w pracy J. Węgierskiego „Armia Krajowa w okręgach Stanisławów i Tarnopol ” z podpisem „zamordowane przez oddziały SS-Galicja dzieci polskie w rejonie Kozowej (pow. brzeżański) (ze zbioru W. Załogowicza)”. Aleksander Korman w pracy „Stosunek UPA do Polaków na ziemiach południowo-wschodnich II Rzeczypospolitej” (Wrocław 2002) zamieszcza najwięcej informacji o zdjęciu i zbrodni, którą ma ono przedstawiać. Twierdzi, że zdjęcie pochodzi ze wsi Kozowa lub Łozowa, pow. Tarnopol, zapewne z grudnia 1943 lub 1944 r., skąd grupa ocalałych z rzezi Polaków dostarczyła je na konspiracyjną placówkę 14. Pułku AK na przedmieściach Lwowa. Tam trafiło w ręce Władysława Załogowicza (na którego relację się powołuje), który wiele lat później przekazał je Krzaklewskiemu, a ten autorowi. Pisze też, że upowcy poczynili wiele takich „wianuszków” z dzieci, przybijając je do drzew w alei, którą nazwali „drogą do samostijnej Ukrainy”. Poznajemy nawet nazwisko przypuszczalnego dowódcy oddziału UPA, odpowiedzialnego za rzeź, i inne szczegóły zbrodni. W wydanym rok później wspomnianym już albumie Korman zamieszcza zdjęcie dwukrotnie, ponownie z informacją, że przedstawia jedno z drzew przy „drodze do samostijnej Ukrainy” w powiecie tarnopolskim. Z kolei w liczącym ponad 1100 stron tomie H. Komańskiego i Sz. Siekierki o ludobójstwie w województwie tarnopolskim (Wrocław 2004) czytamy, że zdjęcie pochodzi ze zbioru St. Krzaklewskiego, a wykonał je niemiecki fotograf wojskowy we wsi Kozówka, pow. Brzeżany, w listopadzie 1943 r. Choć praca ta ma bogatą bazę źródłową i rozbudowany aparat naukowy, nie podaje, na jakiej podstawie przypisano tę scenę do wsi Kozówka. Dodajmy, że od kilku lat zdjęcie I pojawia się w różnych publikacjach i w Internecie (np. w Wikipedii), a jego opis obrasta w coraz to nowe szczegóły rzekomej zbrodni. Bandurist ( talk) 19:33, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
the link for (Polish) a Polish website of Światowy Związek Żołnierzy Armii Krajowej doesn;t seem to work. Should be corrected or removed Bandurist ( talk) 19:40, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
The link for: (English) An abbreviated preface to the monographic book of Władysław Siemaszko and Ewa Siemaszko, November 2000. Doesn't work. Should be removed or corrected.
Bandurist (
talk) 19:43, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm just looking at Rudling source right now and at one point he says Despite statements by senior UPA commanders, such as Taras “Bul’ba” Borovets. Now, of course Taras Bulba-Borovets WAS a commander of UPA, but he was the commander of the ... original, DIFFERENT UPA. And in fact Borovets' UPA fought against Bandera/OUN-B's UPA. And (despite some fringe sources to the contrary) Borovets' UPA opposed, either passively or actively the massacre of Poles in Volhynia which were being carried out by the other, Bandera affiliated, UPA.
Rudling seems confused here. VolunteerMarek 01:46, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Ok, Rudling is basing this 20k number on Jan Maksymiuk's Radio Free Europe article. He also refers to the AK "nationalist underground partisan movement". Now, it was of course Polish, and sought Polish independence from Nazis, but it wasn't "nationalist", at least not in any way more "nationalist" than say the French Resistance[1]. I checked the archives for this article and can't find any info on who this Maksymiuk is (ec add: he seems to be the "Senior Multimedia Editor" at RFE). It's strange that a journal article would quote a more or less random newspaper article. Especially on which gives a number that is so greatly different with what actual consensus number is (2-3k). Again, this would be as if we included the Terles' 200k number for Poles killed in Volhynia, or the Siemaszko 300-400k number. If we're keeping out the Siemaszko's numbers because they represent outliers, for the same reason we should keep out the Maksymiuk number. VolunteerMarek 02:00, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
[1] Oh yeah the footnote - this just looks like Rudling being a typical snotty biased chauvinistic Westerner. If French people fight for a free France then they're "freedom fighters", but if Eastern Europeans do the same thing they're being "nationalistic". Ok, that's just my piece of OR right there. VolunteerMarek 02:02, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Okay pulling out my essay notes to see what I've got here. I think I fudged the sources on the article recently because it seems to be missing a few....but...
-- Львівське ( говорити) 02:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
* snyder says deaths in galicia limited to 25k poles - yes, this sounds right.
* snyder says as many ukrainians killed by UPA as poles in 1943 - where? page? Does not sound right. Maybe, maybe, if he's talking about all Ukrainians killed during this time, including those killed by Soviets and Nazis.
*magosci, 20k ukrainians killed "reasonable estimate" - in Volhynia alone? [Subsequent edit: according to the table above, this refers to "all regions"] - VM.
*marples, 12k ukrainians in eastern poland killed, 15-30k total - is this page 221 of this Marples [12]? I can't see the whole page but he appears to be describing some source not necessarily agreeing with it - I'd like to see the whole text. And he is giving 90k of Poles killed. Also I can only see the 12k killed in Eastern Poland, I can't see the 15-30k total part.
*rudling, 20k ukr killed in volyn by AK - he's just repeating the sketchy Maksymiuk source, as already addressed.
* snyder, 10k ukr killed by AK, nazi, soviet in 1943 - yes, I already referred to that. Note it includes those killed by the Soviets and Nazis.
* motyka, 2-3 in volyn and 10-20 in all areas (thus, 17-18k in eastern galicia, or EG + eastern poland?) - yes, which is also what I already said.
I'll have to look up Jilge, Oliner and Witt, but if those numbers are for "all regions" then they in no way contradict - in fact, support - what I've been saying here. VolunteerMarek 03:03, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Wait. Ok - is the disagreement over the "1,000-2,000 in Eastern Galicia" line in the lede? If so - I just noticed it - then I concur and support with changing that number as that is indeed wrong. I think it was the more accurate 10k to 20k before but somebody on the Polish side monkeyed with it. So I'll fix that one - just please don't try to change the other numbers as they are the accurate ones. Two wrongs don't make a right, they just make it more wrong, and all that. VolunteerMarek 03:13, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
OMG. Guys, you are twisting around. It seems you don't know even last works about this topic (nonetheless you discuss about them and give references). You have to know:
1. Research of these masssacres is quite young discipline as it was not allowed during communism phase in Poland and USSR. It was possible in the West, but the scholars did not have access to East archives, so their knowledge was limited. The research started seriously in late 1980-ties and practically still continues, mostly by Polish side.
2. In the condition of lack of serious research, there circulated a lot of mistakes, wrong theories or even mistifications. They are circulating even today. Presently we are writing an article about it in pl.wikipedia [13]
3. As the research continues, we have more and more updated informations. Some numbers given 5 years ago may be outdated now.
4. There IS NO Western scholar who is an expert of so called Polish-Ukrainian conflict, especially in the statistics of victims number. As you can see, they (Snyder, Himka, Rudling, Rossoliński, Katchanovski etc.) cite other authors when they give number of victims. Consequently, they cite sometimes outdated numbers or even not reliable sources (like Maksymiuk).
5. If you go more deeply in the question of Ukrainian victims, you will see, that little is known. The numbers of tens of thousands Ukrainians killed by AK have no serious base. Polish and Ukrainian historians in the conference "Polska-Ukraina" stated: Obecny stan badań ukraińskich nie pozwala także na dokładne sprecyzowanie liczby ofiar ukraińskich w poszczególnych regionach. Według wstępnych szacunków z rąk polskich w latach 1939-1947, w tym także w operacji "Wisła", zginęły tysiące Ukraińców. Również w historiografii polskiej, jak dotąd, nie podejmowano prób całościowego ustalenia strat ludności ukraińskiej. [in: Polska-Ukraina. Trudne pytania, t.9, Warszawa 2002, p.403]. Ihor Ilyushin writes: Brak oficjalnej informacji o liczbie zabitych Ukraińców można wyjaśnić tylko tym, że na Ukrainie podobnych do polskich badań i obliczeń nikt nigdy nie prowadził. Dopiero w ostatnim czasie, z inicjatywy Wołyńskiego Uniwersytetu Państwowego i Lwowskiego Instytutu Ukrainoznawstwa, rozpoczęły się takie prace. Ale dziś ukraińscy historycy nie są jeszcze niestety gotowi, by przedstawić własne podsumowania. [in: UPA i AK. Konflikt w Zachodniej Ukrainie (1939-1945), Warszawa 2009, p.37].
6. So, 20,000 Ukrainian victims, that created you so much troubles, was outdated estimation given by Motyka. It did not included only Volhynia and Western Galicia but also present eastern Poland (Lubelsczyzna, Rzeszowszczyzna). But Motyka corrected it in his last book: Wiele kontrowersji budzi ocena strat ukraińskich. Przed dziesięciu laty, bodajże jako pierwszy polski historyk, próbowałem je oszacować. Według mojej ówczesnej wiedzy uznałem, że w wyniku polskich działań zginęło 15-20 tysięcy Ukraińców. Dziś, w świetle najnowszych danych, skłonny byłbym liczbę ukraińskich ofiar nieco obniżyć. Z ręki polskiej na Wołyniu zginęło zapewne (nie licząc zabitych przez policję pomocniczą) od 2 do 3 tysięcy Ukraińców. W Galicji Wschodniej zostało zabitych 1-2 tysiące Ukraińców. Zupełnie inaczej wyglądała sytuacja na ziemiach dzisiejszej Polski. Zginęło tam w latach 1943-1947 więcej Ukraińćów niż Polaków, najpewniej 8-10 tysięcy (3-4 tysiące do lata 1944 roku i 5-6 tysięcy w okresie 1944-1947). Ogółem dawałoby to liczbę od 10-11 tysięcy do 15 tysięcy zabitych. Także w tym wypadku podawanie wyższych liczb nie ma żadnego umocowania w badaniach naukowych. Podkreślmy to wyraźnie - spotykane w ukraińskich podręcznikach liczby 30, 50 czy nawet 70 tysięcy zabitych Ukraińców są po prostu wzięte "z sufitu". [in: G.Motyka, Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji "Wisła", p.448].
So, please be conform with the most updated sources and do not cite mistakes and mistifications. GlaubePL ( talk) 12:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Here let me do it.
First one:
"The present state of Ukrainian studies does not make it possible to establish precisely the number of Ukrainian victims in various regions. According to preliminary estimates, during the years 1939-1947, including Operation Vistula, at the hands of Poles died thousands of Ukrainians. Also, in Polish historiography, until recently no attempts have been made to establish the victims among the Ukrainian population. (gives source)
Ihor Ilyushin:
"The lack of official information as to the number of Ukrainians killed can only be explained by the fact that in Ukraine studies and estimates like those carried out by Poles, have never been conducted. Only recently, on the initiative of the Volhynian State University and the Lviv Institute of Ukrainian Studies, has work (on this question - vm) began. However, currently Ukrainian historians are not yet ready to be able to present their own conclusions. (gives source)
Motyka (I have this book, and yes it is probably "the cutting edge" in research on this question.)
"A lot of controversy has been evoked by the question of Ukrainian losses. More than ten years ago, probably as the first Polish historian to do so, I tried to estimates these. According to the state of knowledge I possessed at the time I estimated that as a result of Polish actions, 15-20 thousand Ukrainians died. Today, in light of most recent studies, I would be inclined to lower this number somewhat. In Volhynia, most likely 2 to 3 thousand died (not counting those killed by the auxiliary police) by Polish hands. In Eastern Galicia 1 to 2 Ukrainians were killed (by Poles - vm). The situation was completely different on the territories of present day Poland. The number of Ukrainians killed there between 1943-1943, was greater than the number of Poles, most likely 8 to 10 thousand (3 to 4 thousand up until summer 1944, and 5 to 6 thousand in the period 1944-1947). In total that would give a number of 10-11 thousand to 15 thousand killed. Also in this case (he's referring to previous para - vm) the reporting of higher numbers has no basis in scientific scholarship. I wish to underline this explicitly - numbers encountered in some Ukrainian textbooks of 30, 50 or even 70 thousand killed Ukrainians are simply pulled out of thin air ("from the ceiling" - vm).
So basically Motyka has lowered his estimate for Eastern Galicia, and slightly lowered the overall number, from 20k to "10-11k to 15k". Again, this is for "all the regions combined", with the bulk of the deaths occurring in modern-day Poland - Lublin, Chelm and Zamosc regions (the last one was a bit more complicated too as it happened alongside the Zamosc Expulsions by the Germans) and Operation Vistula. For Volhynia and Eastern Galicia (and especially for the first one) the "conflict" was very much one sided - a massacre.
VolunteerMarek 19:11, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Back to Per Rudling for a moment. I'm going to have to read his paper a few times to digest it. Partiularly with regard to the Holocaust, this is an area where true collaboration, manufactured Nazi reports of collaboration by locals (the "Germanless" Holocaust) and Soviet manufacture of evidence against Ukrainian nationals particularly in the diaspora all come together. Hopefully his treatment of the Holocaust will also provide insight into the rest of his scholarship. As I said, it will take a few times reading through and following his sources to offer an opinion, so it's not going to be a casual exercise or quick. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 02:13, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Removing the entire part about Ukrainian victims from the lede now? Come on guys. Do we have consensus that it belongs there now so that this could be reverted or are we going to at least have a discussion prior to removing such a contentious piece? Jeez. Right after the "lede neutrality" template was inserted too :-/ -- Львівське ( говорити) 13:51, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Here are some thoughts:
Additionally, another two "tools" that the article could use is a timeline and some maps. We keep arguing about what happened where and how many people were killed in what region. Part of that results from the fact that several regions were affected at different times and it is a bit of a pain to constantly keep track of it all.
In regards to the maps, it'd be nice something that shows for readers where Volhynia is, where Eastern Galicia is, and where Lublin/Chelm/Zamosc is. This will also show how the overall conflict spread through time.
In regards to the timeline, I think I can do some work on that. For the purposes of this article I see February 1943 as the beginning of the massacres in Volhynia, which I think is a reasonable starting point. Where to end it though? Go all the way to Operation Vistula just to make sure to include it all? Thoughts?
VolunteerMarek 00:52, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, but you cannot play with sources like you did above. Snyder, Katchanovski - OK; Rudling, Himka, Rossoliński - not OK. What's the difference?! They all are scholars who research history of Polish-Ukrainian borderlands, but they all don't count the Polish victims. You reject the only person (maybe apart Motyka) who does it - namely Ewa Siemaszko. Rudling, Himka and Rossoliński cite her works, all of them are professionsl historians. Himka is a professor of history, Rudling is PhD. The latter improved much more, he does not cite Maksymiuk in the last works. GlaubePL ( talk) 20:52, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
@Vecrumba: In the interest of neutrality I think the timeline should go up to Operation Vistula. We could also have a "pre-1943" or a "1939-1943" entry in the timeline which just succinctly starts it of. @GlaubePL: Rudling, aside from making some basic mistakes in his paper, has a PhD in Public Policy and works in a Department of Political Science, not History. Up above, there were objections to including Piotrowski because he was a "Sociologist of history" rather than a historian. Same logic should apply to Rudling. I have not seen Rudling's latest work - do you have a link or a citation?
For Liebe-Rossolinski it's more of the fact that the source is actually NOT about the massacres/ethnic cleansing, only tangential to it. And he gives the figure in passing. I'm not sure about Himka - aside from the source given does he have other works on the subject?
Siemaszko - according to Motyka, while the Siemaszkos did great work of gathering documents and sources, the conclusions they drew from these were a little far fetched. (I've seem to misplaced my copy of the Motyka book "Od Rzezi...". I know it's either somewhere at home or at the office but I can't locate it for the life of me. I'm sure it will turn up soon). I guess we could include the Siemaszko number but note in the Notes section the objections to it that have been raised. VolunteerMarek 21:00, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Rudling is a historian and he works in the Department of History: [14]. You probably mistaken him with Katchanovski, who is a political scientist. GlaubePL ( talk) 21:16, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Last work of Rudling: [15] GlaubePL ( talk) 21:24, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I think we should differentiate when speaking between Western and Polish sources, rather than doing some OR and choosing what should win, or combining the two. With the Holodomor, for example, we differentiate between western, ukrainian, and soviet sources.-- Львівське ( говорити) 22:23, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Does really Magocsi write about number of Volhynian massacres' victims? In google.books there is nothing in page 681: [16] GlaubePL ( talk) 21:53, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Based on his PL wiki page alone, he seems like a huge source for this topic and someone we should track down. The article states ". Przemiany narodowościowe i ludnościowe w Galicji Wschodniej i na Wołyniu w latach 1931–1948" is a highly regarded book on the topic.
Katchanovski cites Hrytsiuk “Vtraty naselennia na Volyni u 1941-1944rr.” Ukraina-Polshcha: Vazhki Pytannia, Vol. 5. Warsaw: Tyrsa, 2001. I ran a Google for it and nothing, so I tried it in Ukrainian (Втрати населення на Волині в 1941–1947 pp.) and found this by Stepan Makarchuk (Source: Ukraine - Poland: difficult questions. T. 5. - Warsaw, 1999). So same Name (different years), same journal, volume; 1999 instead of 2001.
"Polish memoirists and historians have not always agreed with some information about the Polish population of Volhynia in 1939, 1941 and 1944 pp. Unfortunately, Ukrainian historians have studied the above questions is not enough. Publicists are referred to the Polish researchers Czeslaw Madaychyka, Edward Prus, and others. Yes Basil Yevtushenko repeated by C. Madaychykom that OUN members killed almost 40 thousand Poles 37" He also provides a nice list of massacre sites of Ukrainians by Poles, which isn't something we normally find in our sources de jour. (ref 37 = A. Yevtushenko, Banderovschyna [in:] "Thank Rodynы" (newspaper Prykarpatskoho voennoho vicinity), 1990, March 17.) "Many acts of commissions are lists of victims by nationality, but does not state on whose hands they suffered death, often are "people shot by the German invaders and their accomplices." Since information about the killers of civilians remained in the acts of a few areas, like the mention of nationality is also executed in rare cases, the output even approximate the number of deceased Ukrainian population due to the Polish-Ukrainian armed struggle seems impossible." Also says 50k Poles in Volhynia (based on post-German population numbers, so 50k gone, not specifically UPA, some could have fled, some from nazis or soviets, etc. 50k Poles died in Volhynia during German occupation) and 120k Ukrainians (again, not pinning it on anyone, just from the war in general)-- Львівське ( говорити) 06:45, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Need help translating this from the Kalischuk article, "яких 35 700–60 тис. – жертви українських нападів" (Hryciuk G. Przemiany narodowościowe i ludnościowe w Galicji Wschodniej i na Wołyniu w latach 1931-1948 / G. Hryciuk. - Toruń, 2005. - S. 279.)-- Львівське ( говорити) 07:17, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I just want to recommend everyone involved in the # fact checking to check out the Kalishchuk article PDF. It's in Ukrainian, but Google Translate is sufficient. She provides probably the best recounting of literally every source out there. Most notable is the Karta Research Cell findings presented in a table. As a whole though, she cites everyone we've got in the table and then some, and if we comb through this I think we'll exhaust the chart and have everyone covered.-- Львівське ( говорити) 17:01, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
UPDATE: Ends up I got the Magocsi 'A Historyf of Ukraine and its Peoples' (2nd edition) in the mail today and nobody decided to tell me. I have it now, what should I be double checking? For what I'm reading now: He doesn't state just Volhynia, his 50 figure refers to the entire conflict. He offers no direct citation, but has a large Further Reading section. He suggests Snyder "The Causes of..." and Reconstruction of Nations; Terles, Piotrowski, Lotnik/Preece, Dzemianczuk, and then Piotrowski again for a 3rd time (highly recommends Genocide and Rescue as the best work in the genre.-- Львівське ( говорити) 04:39, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Regarding alleged mass killings of Ukrainians in Chelm region in 1942, Magocsi resonates unfounded claims of Ukrainian historians. Motyka in his last book closed this topic: Unfortunatelly Ukrainian historians never attempted to prove this hypothesis, limiting themself to vague statements about thousands of dead Ukrainians and Polish atrocities. ("Od rzezi...", Warsaw 2011, p.284). Motyka and other Polish historians (Cz.Partacz, K. Lada, W. Filar) claim that in 1942 the Polish underground killed in Chelm region around 30 Ukrainians ("Od rzezi...", p.285) A document of Ukrainian Aid Commitee prove it. The myth of the beginning of mass killings in the Chelm region in 1942 by the Poles is the result of the propaganda of the OUN-B, which after starting the massacres in Volyn and Galicia (1943-1944) falsely announced that Poles began the mass murders in 1942. ("Od rzezi...", p 290-292, Partacz, Działalność nacjonalistów ukraińskich w Ziemi Chełmskiej i na Podlasiu 1939-1944 [in:] Stosunki polsko-ukraińskie w latach 1939-2004, Warsaw 2004, pp.65, 90)
This shows that Magocsi is not a reliable source on this topic. GlaubePL ( talk) 21:09, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
The Marples and Wolczuk are redundant - it's listing the same thing twice. VolunteerMarek 23:37, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
There is currently a sentence in the lede which absolutely should not be there. It is "However, according to G.Motyka, the estimation of 30,000 Ukrainian casualties is baseless." First off, this is giving way too much weight to Motyka and his opinions - in a lede - which should be neutral and reflective of a summary. It's not a place for interjections or arguments or editorializing. Calling reliable sources "baseless" to start off an article is very weasely. This quote belongs in the numbers section; where I placed it before I was reverted. If any scholar disputes figures, absolutely, include it, but it shouldn't be in the lede to mislead readers that all other scholars who think differently from Motyka are "baseless" in their claims. That's rubbish and blatant POV pushing. Should we include sources discussing how Polish historians inflate the numbers then in the lede, to even things out? I think I know the answer to that one from some editors here.-- Львівське ( говорити) 00:31, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Also, Pawel was so kind as to censor the following from the lede, "Who started the cycle of massacres remains a subject of controversy and dispute. [1]". This statement is the epitome if neutrality; acknowleding that there is a not a concrete answer to this question, and not leading the reader one way or the other, just simply informing them. If neutral statements like this are going to be removed, and matter-of-fact statements like the above (which disregard competing scholarship) are inserted, this article will remain a POVy mess forever. Come on, guys.-- Львівське ( говорити) 00:43, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 12 |
"In Polish retaliatory actions conducted in early 1944, the Ukrainian villages of Prykhorile, Mentke, Sakhryn, Shykhoviche, and Terebin were destroyed." - this sentence is in the section "Galicia". The localities above are not Galician. This is region called Kholmchyna or (better) Lublin voivodship. GlaubePL ( talk) 19:56, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
"Father Ludwik Wrodarczyk from the village of Okop was crucified by the Ukrainians, father Stanislaw Dobrzanski from the village of Ostrowka beheaded (967 local Poles were killed with him) and father Karol Baran from the village of Korytnica was cut in half by a saw." - it should be in the section "Volhynia" and not "Galicia" because all the localities are in Volhynia. GlaubePL ( talk) 13:07, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
"In the night of February 5–6, 1944, Ukrainian groups attacked the Polish village of Barycz, near Buchach. 126 Poles were massacred, including women and children. A few days later on February 12–13, a local group of OUN under Petro Chamchuk attacked the Polish settlement of Puźniki, killing around 100 people and burning houses. Those who survived moved mostly to Prudnik." - The dates are wrong, the massacres in Barycz and Puźniki happened in 1945 and not 1944. GlaubePL ( talk) 13:10, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Why not forking the Galicia part to a separate article. Has this been discussed ? -- Lysy talk 16:10, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Don't forget to put it through the page rename process, it is not as simple as deciding amongst yourselves that a new name will be better, you need to find consensus on it as well. Chaosdruid ( talk) 03:07, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Compared to Volhynia and Galicia, the Lublin part of the story is fairly minor, so I think it's ok if it doesn't get mentioned separately. Honestly, my view on this is that I don't care that much whether it's covered in one article ("Volhynia and Galicia") or two articles ("Volyhynia" and "Galicia") as long as it is covered well and neutrally. I do see some sense in having some kind of a disambiguation/meta/general page for ... "early 20th century" Polish-Ukrainian conflicts which would direct readers to this article, as well as to Operation Vistula and other related articles. But if we do that, we should be careful that we don't start POV-forking stuff. VolunteerMarek 04:00, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
[ [1]] Bandurist ( talk) 16:39, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 03:57, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia →
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia –
This article originally covered incidents in Volhynia (a region of Poland before WW2 and currently a region of Ukraine). The scope of the article has expanded to cover Eastern Galicia (similarly a former region of Poland and now Ukraine).
Options considered have included:
There is no need to further oppose the above options. If you oppose this move, please state your propsed solution.
Op47 (
talk) 14:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
OK, now that is sort of over, I have realised that this is possibly a largely POV page. Unfotunately I did not have much spare time, as well as having no electricity for 4 days, and did not get here in time to comment.
"Ukrainian casualties at the hands of Poles during the conflict range from 2,000 to 20,000 in Volhynia,[14][15] and 20,000 for the two regions combined."
Is there a corresponding "Massacres of Ukrainians in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia" article?
If not, then can we not name it something more neutral as this seems to cover both sides. I believe it should be something like "Massacres in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia 1943-1944" Chaosdruid ( talk) 23:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
That is where you went wrong, this thread is about the article title - yet it has turned into heated discussion over how many rather than POV title
I began by suggesting that the title needs to be less pointy, less POV and more neutral in tone. I agree that "Massacre" is correct, and that the new title does cover the geographical area. What I do not agree about is that the article contains a significant number of Ukrainians massacred and yet the title suggests that only Poles were massacred.
I want you to talk about that one and only point, to find consensus, and to discuss what, if anything, can be done. If you can do that without trying to make me look like I am attacking you, then all will be fine. Chaosdruid ( talk) 15:28, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
VolunteerMarek 23:13, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Do any serious scholars make an opinion on these claims either way? All I've seen is Katchanovski refuse it.-- Львівське ( говорити) 22:34, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
All Polish historiography calls it genocide - see for example Motyka and Hryciuk, not mentioning Kresy-historians. "One commission" mentioned by Lvivskie is Polish Head Commission for investigations of war crimes and it is the body competent to apply juridical qualification. GlaubePL ( talk) 20:30, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
There is an image on the page with the caption "The mass grave discovered during the second exhumation in Wola Ostrowiecka (August 2011)". Can we confirm that this image is related to this article? The File Page says nothing of it, and inserting a random or unattributed exhumation in this article is WP:SYN (ie. murders happened in volyn, this image is of murders in volyn, therefore it must be from this event). For all we know it could be Nazi or NKVD victims-- Львівське ( говорити) 23:30, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
The version based on Magosci and misquoted Marples (in fact onesided Serchiichuk)...
Who started the cycle of massacres remains a subject of controversy and dispute. The killing of Ukrainians by Poles predated the Volhynian massacres in both Lublin and Krakow, with the 1942 massacre of Ukrainians in Chelm being the earliest such instance that would spark reprisals.
...is radical POV based on OUN-UPA propaganda. I propose more accurate version, in new section. I have it im my sandbox: [10] GlaubePL ( talk) 21:58, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
[The brochure] had clearly propagandic character thus treating it as neutral source, as it is done sometimes, has to be considered as a serious methodological error.
I see little interest here to change status quo which is extreme POV (proved by Motyka). So, sources have to speak. GlaubePL ( talk) 19:57, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
"According to Polish historian Piotr Łossowski, the method used in most of the attacks was the same. At first, local Poles were assured that nothing would happen to them. Then, at dawn, a village was surrounded by armed members of the UPA, behind whom were peasants with axes, hammers, knives, and saws. All the Poles encountered were murdered; sometimes they were herded into one spot, to make it easier. After a massacre, all goods were looted, including clothes, grain, and furniture. The final part of an attack was setting fire to the village.[90]"
One source, even attributed, is insufficient for encyclopedic documentation of WWII atrocities. For example, there are ostensibly reputable sources that state Lithuanians bludgeoned Jews to death, then sang folk songs as they sat on piles of their still-warm bodies. Utterly false. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 19:08, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
In the external links - (Polish) Genocide in Volhynia - http://www.bj.uj.edu.pl/~plok/genocide/index.html - you have a site with falsely acreditted photographs that Polish jounalists have shown were incorrectly labeled.
Fot. 12. Zdjęcie ze zbiorów dr Aleksandra Kormana z wyjaśnieniem: ŁOBOZOWA (?), pow. Tarnopol, jesień 1943 lub 1944 roku. Terroryści OUN-UPA dokonali okrutnego mordu na polskich dzieciach. W alei starych drzew, do każdego drzewa przybijali wokół małe dzieci, tworząc tzw. "wianuszki" Aleję tę, na rozwieszonym transparencie nazwali "drogą do samostijnej Ukrainy". Na zdjęciu jedno z drzew, na którym przybito czworo małych dzieci. Zdjęcie to publikuje J. Węgierski, informując, że pochodzi ono ze zbioru M. Domiszewskiego.
Which although the children are acreditted to having been killed by OUN-UPA and wrapped in barbed wire, were infact killed by their Gypsy mother some ten years earlier and the arbed wire is folds in the photograph.
I feel that this sort of site should be removed from the list.
Bandurist ( talk) 18:50, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
http://www.rzeczpospolita.pl/news.rol?newsId=1680 To nie są polskie dzieci Twierdzimy tak, ponieważ posiadamy niezaprzeczalne dowody, że wspomniane zdjęcie — pierwowzór projektu pomnika — przedstawia zupełnie inne wydarzenie. Miało ono miejsce w nocy z 11 na 12 grudnia 1923 r., cztery ofiary to dzieci cygańskie, a zabójcą była ich obłąkana matka, 32-letnia M.D. Zdarzenie jest szczegółowo opisane w pracy wydanej drukiem w 1928 r. (a zapewne też w ówczesnej prasie). publikacji, która powoływała się na artykuł z roku 1928. Obydwa teksty są publikacjami z zakresu medycyny sądowej. Pierwszy to artykuł „Psychoza szałowo-posępnicza w kazuistyce sądowo-psychiatrycznej”, zamieszczony w „Roczniku Psychiatrycznym” z 1928 r. Jego autorem był Witold Łuniewski, wieloletni dyrektor zakładu w Tworkach. Druga publikacja to „Podręcznik medycyny sądowej dla studentów i lekarzy”, wydany w 1948 r. przez Wiktora Grzywo-Dąbrowskiego, profesora Uniwersytetu Warszawskiego i członka komitetu redakcyjnego „Rocznika Psychiatrycznego”. To właśnie fakt, że zabójcą dzieci była ich matka, przyciągnął uwagę uczonych. Nieszczęsna kobieta zabiła czworo dzieci w akcie rozpaczy po aresztowaniu męża i rozpadzie grupy cygańskiej, w której dotąd żyła, w przekonaniu, że grozi im niechybna śmierć głodowa. Następnego dnia zgłosiła się na policję. Z polecenia sądu została umieszczona w zakładzie psychiatrycznym, gdzie stwierdzono u niej „psychozę szałowo-posępniczą”, dziś powiedzielibyśmy zapewne o ciężkim przypadku depresji. Jak pisze Łuniewski, jej czyn „był psychopatologiczną próbą dokonania rozszerzonego samobójstwa, którego chora nie doprowadziła do końca”.
Obydwie wymienione publikacje zawierają fotografie z miejsca zbrodni. W „Podręczniku medycyny sądowej” zamieszczono zdjęcie, które oznaczyliśmy nr II. Nie jest ono takie samo jak zdjęcie nr I. Czytelnik dostrzeże, że zdjęcie I jest jego lustrzanym odbiciem. Fotografia zamieszczona w pracy Łuniewskiego, którą oznaczyliśmy nr III, jest innym zdjęciem — przedstawia niewątpliwie tę samą scenę, ale sfotografowaną z nieco innej strony. „Przejmujący grozą obraz tej zbrodni został sfotografowany przez urząd śledczy”, pisze Łuniewski, i zapewne wykonano kilka zdjęć z różnych perspektyw. Możliwe, że w archiwach sądowych lub policyjnych zachowały się inne jeszcze zdjęcia tej sceny. Ponadto zdjęcie I różni się od pozostałych ukośnymi jasnymi liniami, które kilku komentatorów wzięło błędnie za drut kolczasty. Są to zapewne ślady zgięć pierwotnej fotografii lub zarysowań na negatywie. Dwa lata później zdjęcie pojawia się w pracy J. Węgierskiego „Armia Krajowa w okręgach Stanisławów i Tarnopol ” z podpisem „zamordowane przez oddziały SS-Galicja dzieci polskie w rejonie Kozowej (pow. brzeżański) (ze zbioru W. Załogowicza)”. Aleksander Korman w pracy „Stosunek UPA do Polaków na ziemiach południowo-wschodnich II Rzeczypospolitej” (Wrocław 2002) zamieszcza najwięcej informacji o zdjęciu i zbrodni, którą ma ono przedstawiać. Twierdzi, że zdjęcie pochodzi ze wsi Kozowa lub Łozowa, pow. Tarnopol, zapewne z grudnia 1943 lub 1944 r., skąd grupa ocalałych z rzezi Polaków dostarczyła je na konspiracyjną placówkę 14. Pułku AK na przedmieściach Lwowa. Tam trafiło w ręce Władysława Załogowicza (na którego relację się powołuje), który wiele lat później przekazał je Krzaklewskiemu, a ten autorowi. Pisze też, że upowcy poczynili wiele takich „wianuszków” z dzieci, przybijając je do drzew w alei, którą nazwali „drogą do samostijnej Ukrainy”. Poznajemy nawet nazwisko przypuszczalnego dowódcy oddziału UPA, odpowiedzialnego za rzeź, i inne szczegóły zbrodni. W wydanym rok później wspomnianym już albumie Korman zamieszcza zdjęcie dwukrotnie, ponownie z informacją, że przedstawia jedno z drzew przy „drodze do samostijnej Ukrainy” w powiecie tarnopolskim. Z kolei w liczącym ponad 1100 stron tomie H. Komańskiego i Sz. Siekierki o ludobójstwie w województwie tarnopolskim (Wrocław 2004) czytamy, że zdjęcie pochodzi ze zbioru St. Krzaklewskiego, a wykonał je niemiecki fotograf wojskowy we wsi Kozówka, pow. Brzeżany, w listopadzie 1943 r. Choć praca ta ma bogatą bazę źródłową i rozbudowany aparat naukowy, nie podaje, na jakiej podstawie przypisano tę scenę do wsi Kozówka. Dodajmy, że od kilku lat zdjęcie I pojawia się w różnych publikacjach i w Internecie (np. w Wikipedii), a jego opis obrasta w coraz to nowe szczegóły rzekomej zbrodni. Bandurist ( talk) 19:33, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
the link for (Polish) a Polish website of Światowy Związek Żołnierzy Armii Krajowej doesn;t seem to work. Should be corrected or removed Bandurist ( talk) 19:40, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
The link for: (English) An abbreviated preface to the monographic book of Władysław Siemaszko and Ewa Siemaszko, November 2000. Doesn't work. Should be removed or corrected.
Bandurist (
talk) 19:43, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm just looking at Rudling source right now and at one point he says Despite statements by senior UPA commanders, such as Taras “Bul’ba” Borovets. Now, of course Taras Bulba-Borovets WAS a commander of UPA, but he was the commander of the ... original, DIFFERENT UPA. And in fact Borovets' UPA fought against Bandera/OUN-B's UPA. And (despite some fringe sources to the contrary) Borovets' UPA opposed, either passively or actively the massacre of Poles in Volhynia which were being carried out by the other, Bandera affiliated, UPA.
Rudling seems confused here. VolunteerMarek 01:46, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Ok, Rudling is basing this 20k number on Jan Maksymiuk's Radio Free Europe article. He also refers to the AK "nationalist underground partisan movement". Now, it was of course Polish, and sought Polish independence from Nazis, but it wasn't "nationalist", at least not in any way more "nationalist" than say the French Resistance[1]. I checked the archives for this article and can't find any info on who this Maksymiuk is (ec add: he seems to be the "Senior Multimedia Editor" at RFE). It's strange that a journal article would quote a more or less random newspaper article. Especially on which gives a number that is so greatly different with what actual consensus number is (2-3k). Again, this would be as if we included the Terles' 200k number for Poles killed in Volhynia, or the Siemaszko 300-400k number. If we're keeping out the Siemaszko's numbers because they represent outliers, for the same reason we should keep out the Maksymiuk number. VolunteerMarek 02:00, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
[1] Oh yeah the footnote - this just looks like Rudling being a typical snotty biased chauvinistic Westerner. If French people fight for a free France then they're "freedom fighters", but if Eastern Europeans do the same thing they're being "nationalistic". Ok, that's just my piece of OR right there. VolunteerMarek 02:02, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Okay pulling out my essay notes to see what I've got here. I think I fudged the sources on the article recently because it seems to be missing a few....but...
-- Львівське ( говорити) 02:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
* snyder says deaths in galicia limited to 25k poles - yes, this sounds right.
* snyder says as many ukrainians killed by UPA as poles in 1943 - where? page? Does not sound right. Maybe, maybe, if he's talking about all Ukrainians killed during this time, including those killed by Soviets and Nazis.
*magosci, 20k ukrainians killed "reasonable estimate" - in Volhynia alone? [Subsequent edit: according to the table above, this refers to "all regions"] - VM.
*marples, 12k ukrainians in eastern poland killed, 15-30k total - is this page 221 of this Marples [12]? I can't see the whole page but he appears to be describing some source not necessarily agreeing with it - I'd like to see the whole text. And he is giving 90k of Poles killed. Also I can only see the 12k killed in Eastern Poland, I can't see the 15-30k total part.
*rudling, 20k ukr killed in volyn by AK - he's just repeating the sketchy Maksymiuk source, as already addressed.
* snyder, 10k ukr killed by AK, nazi, soviet in 1943 - yes, I already referred to that. Note it includes those killed by the Soviets and Nazis.
* motyka, 2-3 in volyn and 10-20 in all areas (thus, 17-18k in eastern galicia, or EG + eastern poland?) - yes, which is also what I already said.
I'll have to look up Jilge, Oliner and Witt, but if those numbers are for "all regions" then they in no way contradict - in fact, support - what I've been saying here. VolunteerMarek 03:03, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Wait. Ok - is the disagreement over the "1,000-2,000 in Eastern Galicia" line in the lede? If so - I just noticed it - then I concur and support with changing that number as that is indeed wrong. I think it was the more accurate 10k to 20k before but somebody on the Polish side monkeyed with it. So I'll fix that one - just please don't try to change the other numbers as they are the accurate ones. Two wrongs don't make a right, they just make it more wrong, and all that. VolunteerMarek 03:13, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
OMG. Guys, you are twisting around. It seems you don't know even last works about this topic (nonetheless you discuss about them and give references). You have to know:
1. Research of these masssacres is quite young discipline as it was not allowed during communism phase in Poland and USSR. It was possible in the West, but the scholars did not have access to East archives, so their knowledge was limited. The research started seriously in late 1980-ties and practically still continues, mostly by Polish side.
2. In the condition of lack of serious research, there circulated a lot of mistakes, wrong theories or even mistifications. They are circulating even today. Presently we are writing an article about it in pl.wikipedia [13]
3. As the research continues, we have more and more updated informations. Some numbers given 5 years ago may be outdated now.
4. There IS NO Western scholar who is an expert of so called Polish-Ukrainian conflict, especially in the statistics of victims number. As you can see, they (Snyder, Himka, Rudling, Rossoliński, Katchanovski etc.) cite other authors when they give number of victims. Consequently, they cite sometimes outdated numbers or even not reliable sources (like Maksymiuk).
5. If you go more deeply in the question of Ukrainian victims, you will see, that little is known. The numbers of tens of thousands Ukrainians killed by AK have no serious base. Polish and Ukrainian historians in the conference "Polska-Ukraina" stated: Obecny stan badań ukraińskich nie pozwala także na dokładne sprecyzowanie liczby ofiar ukraińskich w poszczególnych regionach. Według wstępnych szacunków z rąk polskich w latach 1939-1947, w tym także w operacji "Wisła", zginęły tysiące Ukraińców. Również w historiografii polskiej, jak dotąd, nie podejmowano prób całościowego ustalenia strat ludności ukraińskiej. [in: Polska-Ukraina. Trudne pytania, t.9, Warszawa 2002, p.403]. Ihor Ilyushin writes: Brak oficjalnej informacji o liczbie zabitych Ukraińców można wyjaśnić tylko tym, że na Ukrainie podobnych do polskich badań i obliczeń nikt nigdy nie prowadził. Dopiero w ostatnim czasie, z inicjatywy Wołyńskiego Uniwersytetu Państwowego i Lwowskiego Instytutu Ukrainoznawstwa, rozpoczęły się takie prace. Ale dziś ukraińscy historycy nie są jeszcze niestety gotowi, by przedstawić własne podsumowania. [in: UPA i AK. Konflikt w Zachodniej Ukrainie (1939-1945), Warszawa 2009, p.37].
6. So, 20,000 Ukrainian victims, that created you so much troubles, was outdated estimation given by Motyka. It did not included only Volhynia and Western Galicia but also present eastern Poland (Lubelsczyzna, Rzeszowszczyzna). But Motyka corrected it in his last book: Wiele kontrowersji budzi ocena strat ukraińskich. Przed dziesięciu laty, bodajże jako pierwszy polski historyk, próbowałem je oszacować. Według mojej ówczesnej wiedzy uznałem, że w wyniku polskich działań zginęło 15-20 tysięcy Ukraińców. Dziś, w świetle najnowszych danych, skłonny byłbym liczbę ukraińskich ofiar nieco obniżyć. Z ręki polskiej na Wołyniu zginęło zapewne (nie licząc zabitych przez policję pomocniczą) od 2 do 3 tysięcy Ukraińców. W Galicji Wschodniej zostało zabitych 1-2 tysiące Ukraińców. Zupełnie inaczej wyglądała sytuacja na ziemiach dzisiejszej Polski. Zginęło tam w latach 1943-1947 więcej Ukraińćów niż Polaków, najpewniej 8-10 tysięcy (3-4 tysiące do lata 1944 roku i 5-6 tysięcy w okresie 1944-1947). Ogółem dawałoby to liczbę od 10-11 tysięcy do 15 tysięcy zabitych. Także w tym wypadku podawanie wyższych liczb nie ma żadnego umocowania w badaniach naukowych. Podkreślmy to wyraźnie - spotykane w ukraińskich podręcznikach liczby 30, 50 czy nawet 70 tysięcy zabitych Ukraińców są po prostu wzięte "z sufitu". [in: G.Motyka, Od rzezi wołyńskiej do akcji "Wisła", p.448].
So, please be conform with the most updated sources and do not cite mistakes and mistifications. GlaubePL ( talk) 12:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Here let me do it.
First one:
"The present state of Ukrainian studies does not make it possible to establish precisely the number of Ukrainian victims in various regions. According to preliminary estimates, during the years 1939-1947, including Operation Vistula, at the hands of Poles died thousands of Ukrainians. Also, in Polish historiography, until recently no attempts have been made to establish the victims among the Ukrainian population. (gives source)
Ihor Ilyushin:
"The lack of official information as to the number of Ukrainians killed can only be explained by the fact that in Ukraine studies and estimates like those carried out by Poles, have never been conducted. Only recently, on the initiative of the Volhynian State University and the Lviv Institute of Ukrainian Studies, has work (on this question - vm) began. However, currently Ukrainian historians are not yet ready to be able to present their own conclusions. (gives source)
Motyka (I have this book, and yes it is probably "the cutting edge" in research on this question.)
"A lot of controversy has been evoked by the question of Ukrainian losses. More than ten years ago, probably as the first Polish historian to do so, I tried to estimates these. According to the state of knowledge I possessed at the time I estimated that as a result of Polish actions, 15-20 thousand Ukrainians died. Today, in light of most recent studies, I would be inclined to lower this number somewhat. In Volhynia, most likely 2 to 3 thousand died (not counting those killed by the auxiliary police) by Polish hands. In Eastern Galicia 1 to 2 Ukrainians were killed (by Poles - vm). The situation was completely different on the territories of present day Poland. The number of Ukrainians killed there between 1943-1943, was greater than the number of Poles, most likely 8 to 10 thousand (3 to 4 thousand up until summer 1944, and 5 to 6 thousand in the period 1944-1947). In total that would give a number of 10-11 thousand to 15 thousand killed. Also in this case (he's referring to previous para - vm) the reporting of higher numbers has no basis in scientific scholarship. I wish to underline this explicitly - numbers encountered in some Ukrainian textbooks of 30, 50 or even 70 thousand killed Ukrainians are simply pulled out of thin air ("from the ceiling" - vm).
So basically Motyka has lowered his estimate for Eastern Galicia, and slightly lowered the overall number, from 20k to "10-11k to 15k". Again, this is for "all the regions combined", with the bulk of the deaths occurring in modern-day Poland - Lublin, Chelm and Zamosc regions (the last one was a bit more complicated too as it happened alongside the Zamosc Expulsions by the Germans) and Operation Vistula. For Volhynia and Eastern Galicia (and especially for the first one) the "conflict" was very much one sided - a massacre.
VolunteerMarek 19:11, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Back to Per Rudling for a moment. I'm going to have to read his paper a few times to digest it. Partiularly with regard to the Holocaust, this is an area where true collaboration, manufactured Nazi reports of collaboration by locals (the "Germanless" Holocaust) and Soviet manufacture of evidence against Ukrainian nationals particularly in the diaspora all come together. Hopefully his treatment of the Holocaust will also provide insight into the rest of his scholarship. As I said, it will take a few times reading through and following his sources to offer an opinion, so it's not going to be a casual exercise or quick. VєсrumЬа ► TALK 02:13, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Removing the entire part about Ukrainian victims from the lede now? Come on guys. Do we have consensus that it belongs there now so that this could be reverted or are we going to at least have a discussion prior to removing such a contentious piece? Jeez. Right after the "lede neutrality" template was inserted too :-/ -- Львівське ( говорити) 13:51, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
Here are some thoughts:
Additionally, another two "tools" that the article could use is a timeline and some maps. We keep arguing about what happened where and how many people were killed in what region. Part of that results from the fact that several regions were affected at different times and it is a bit of a pain to constantly keep track of it all.
In regards to the maps, it'd be nice something that shows for readers where Volhynia is, where Eastern Galicia is, and where Lublin/Chelm/Zamosc is. This will also show how the overall conflict spread through time.
In regards to the timeline, I think I can do some work on that. For the purposes of this article I see February 1943 as the beginning of the massacres in Volhynia, which I think is a reasonable starting point. Where to end it though? Go all the way to Operation Vistula just to make sure to include it all? Thoughts?
VolunteerMarek 00:52, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, but you cannot play with sources like you did above. Snyder, Katchanovski - OK; Rudling, Himka, Rossoliński - not OK. What's the difference?! They all are scholars who research history of Polish-Ukrainian borderlands, but they all don't count the Polish victims. You reject the only person (maybe apart Motyka) who does it - namely Ewa Siemaszko. Rudling, Himka and Rossoliński cite her works, all of them are professionsl historians. Himka is a professor of history, Rudling is PhD. The latter improved much more, he does not cite Maksymiuk in the last works. GlaubePL ( talk) 20:52, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
@Vecrumba: In the interest of neutrality I think the timeline should go up to Operation Vistula. We could also have a "pre-1943" or a "1939-1943" entry in the timeline which just succinctly starts it of. @GlaubePL: Rudling, aside from making some basic mistakes in his paper, has a PhD in Public Policy and works in a Department of Political Science, not History. Up above, there were objections to including Piotrowski because he was a "Sociologist of history" rather than a historian. Same logic should apply to Rudling. I have not seen Rudling's latest work - do you have a link or a citation?
For Liebe-Rossolinski it's more of the fact that the source is actually NOT about the massacres/ethnic cleansing, only tangential to it. And he gives the figure in passing. I'm not sure about Himka - aside from the source given does he have other works on the subject?
Siemaszko - according to Motyka, while the Siemaszkos did great work of gathering documents and sources, the conclusions they drew from these were a little far fetched. (I've seem to misplaced my copy of the Motyka book "Od Rzezi...". I know it's either somewhere at home or at the office but I can't locate it for the life of me. I'm sure it will turn up soon). I guess we could include the Siemaszko number but note in the Notes section the objections to it that have been raised. VolunteerMarek 21:00, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Rudling is a historian and he works in the Department of History: [14]. You probably mistaken him with Katchanovski, who is a political scientist. GlaubePL ( talk) 21:16, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Last work of Rudling: [15] GlaubePL ( talk) 21:24, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I think we should differentiate when speaking between Western and Polish sources, rather than doing some OR and choosing what should win, or combining the two. With the Holodomor, for example, we differentiate between western, ukrainian, and soviet sources.-- Львівське ( говорити) 22:23, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Does really Magocsi write about number of Volhynian massacres' victims? In google.books there is nothing in page 681: [16] GlaubePL ( talk) 21:53, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Based on his PL wiki page alone, he seems like a huge source for this topic and someone we should track down. The article states ". Przemiany narodowościowe i ludnościowe w Galicji Wschodniej i na Wołyniu w latach 1931–1948" is a highly regarded book on the topic.
Katchanovski cites Hrytsiuk “Vtraty naselennia na Volyni u 1941-1944rr.” Ukraina-Polshcha: Vazhki Pytannia, Vol. 5. Warsaw: Tyrsa, 2001. I ran a Google for it and nothing, so I tried it in Ukrainian (Втрати населення на Волині в 1941–1947 pp.) and found this by Stepan Makarchuk (Source: Ukraine - Poland: difficult questions. T. 5. - Warsaw, 1999). So same Name (different years), same journal, volume; 1999 instead of 2001.
"Polish memoirists and historians have not always agreed with some information about the Polish population of Volhynia in 1939, 1941 and 1944 pp. Unfortunately, Ukrainian historians have studied the above questions is not enough. Publicists are referred to the Polish researchers Czeslaw Madaychyka, Edward Prus, and others. Yes Basil Yevtushenko repeated by C. Madaychykom that OUN members killed almost 40 thousand Poles 37" He also provides a nice list of massacre sites of Ukrainians by Poles, which isn't something we normally find in our sources de jour. (ref 37 = A. Yevtushenko, Banderovschyna [in:] "Thank Rodynы" (newspaper Prykarpatskoho voennoho vicinity), 1990, March 17.) "Many acts of commissions are lists of victims by nationality, but does not state on whose hands they suffered death, often are "people shot by the German invaders and their accomplices." Since information about the killers of civilians remained in the acts of a few areas, like the mention of nationality is also executed in rare cases, the output even approximate the number of deceased Ukrainian population due to the Polish-Ukrainian armed struggle seems impossible." Also says 50k Poles in Volhynia (based on post-German population numbers, so 50k gone, not specifically UPA, some could have fled, some from nazis or soviets, etc. 50k Poles died in Volhynia during German occupation) and 120k Ukrainians (again, not pinning it on anyone, just from the war in general)-- Львівське ( говорити) 06:45, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Need help translating this from the Kalischuk article, "яких 35 700–60 тис. – жертви українських нападів" (Hryciuk G. Przemiany narodowościowe i ludnościowe w Galicji Wschodniej i na Wołyniu w latach 1931-1948 / G. Hryciuk. - Toruń, 2005. - S. 279.)-- Львівське ( говорити) 07:17, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I just want to recommend everyone involved in the # fact checking to check out the Kalishchuk article PDF. It's in Ukrainian, but Google Translate is sufficient. She provides probably the best recounting of literally every source out there. Most notable is the Karta Research Cell findings presented in a table. As a whole though, she cites everyone we've got in the table and then some, and if we comb through this I think we'll exhaust the chart and have everyone covered.-- Львівське ( говорити) 17:01, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
UPDATE: Ends up I got the Magocsi 'A Historyf of Ukraine and its Peoples' (2nd edition) in the mail today and nobody decided to tell me. I have it now, what should I be double checking? For what I'm reading now: He doesn't state just Volhynia, his 50 figure refers to the entire conflict. He offers no direct citation, but has a large Further Reading section. He suggests Snyder "The Causes of..." and Reconstruction of Nations; Terles, Piotrowski, Lotnik/Preece, Dzemianczuk, and then Piotrowski again for a 3rd time (highly recommends Genocide and Rescue as the best work in the genre.-- Львівське ( говорити) 04:39, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Regarding alleged mass killings of Ukrainians in Chelm region in 1942, Magocsi resonates unfounded claims of Ukrainian historians. Motyka in his last book closed this topic: Unfortunatelly Ukrainian historians never attempted to prove this hypothesis, limiting themself to vague statements about thousands of dead Ukrainians and Polish atrocities. ("Od rzezi...", Warsaw 2011, p.284). Motyka and other Polish historians (Cz.Partacz, K. Lada, W. Filar) claim that in 1942 the Polish underground killed in Chelm region around 30 Ukrainians ("Od rzezi...", p.285) A document of Ukrainian Aid Commitee prove it. The myth of the beginning of mass killings in the Chelm region in 1942 by the Poles is the result of the propaganda of the OUN-B, which after starting the massacres in Volyn and Galicia (1943-1944) falsely announced that Poles began the mass murders in 1942. ("Od rzezi...", p 290-292, Partacz, Działalność nacjonalistów ukraińskich w Ziemi Chełmskiej i na Podlasiu 1939-1944 [in:] Stosunki polsko-ukraińskie w latach 1939-2004, Warsaw 2004, pp.65, 90)
This shows that Magocsi is not a reliable source on this topic. GlaubePL ( talk) 21:09, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
The Marples and Wolczuk are redundant - it's listing the same thing twice. VolunteerMarek 23:37, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
There is currently a sentence in the lede which absolutely should not be there. It is "However, according to G.Motyka, the estimation of 30,000 Ukrainian casualties is baseless." First off, this is giving way too much weight to Motyka and his opinions - in a lede - which should be neutral and reflective of a summary. It's not a place for interjections or arguments or editorializing. Calling reliable sources "baseless" to start off an article is very weasely. This quote belongs in the numbers section; where I placed it before I was reverted. If any scholar disputes figures, absolutely, include it, but it shouldn't be in the lede to mislead readers that all other scholars who think differently from Motyka are "baseless" in their claims. That's rubbish and blatant POV pushing. Should we include sources discussing how Polish historians inflate the numbers then in the lede, to even things out? I think I know the answer to that one from some editors here.-- Львівське ( говорити) 00:31, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
Also, Pawel was so kind as to censor the following from the lede, "Who started the cycle of massacres remains a subject of controversy and dispute. [1]". This statement is the epitome if neutrality; acknowleding that there is a not a concrete answer to this question, and not leading the reader one way or the other, just simply informing them. If neutral statements like this are going to be removed, and matter-of-fact statements like the above (which disregard competing scholarship) are inserted, this article will remain a POVy mess forever. Come on, guys.-- Львівське ( говорити) 00:43, 8 March 2012 (UTC)