![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
If the edit warrring continues, I'll protect this article. Please discuss things on talk, not just edit war.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
A perfect collections – isn’t:
While a “wrong history” removed without explanation
Simply because they not allow to perpetrate a hoax in WP for cooperative of editors.
As you’ve point out – no discussion intent exist – simply provocative messages Jo0doe ( talk) 19:28, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Taking into account the recent edits - I can conlcude what affort were given to hoax the WP by distorting the facts and give a wrong emphasis to events -- Jo0doe ( talk) 07:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
So – just another “Austrian officer” case. So here article which reflected the OUN-B activities [Massacres of Poles in Volhynia ], [Ukrainian Insurgent Army ] [Proclamation of Ukrainian statehood, 1941] allegedly claimed as “Ukrainian topic” – not – it actually should be placed as Galician’s Fascist activities category – it’s may be for some extremists look like Ukrainian, but that is not true. As regards hoaxing – see a short list of such http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army/Archive_03#WP:NOHOAXES – most of them perpetrated by editor recently nominated me as “troll” and “clown”. All edit warring as spin around explained in War Criminality: A Blank Spot in the Collective Memory of the Ukrainian Diaspora by J O H N - P A U L H I M K A
OUN -B General Instruction adopted in 1941 “ Fights and activities during the war” stated “enemies to us are: moskali (Russians), Poles, Jews…” and thus them must be“… exterminated in fight, especially whom which protect regime: remove to their land, assassinate, predominantly intelligentsia… Jews assimilation is impossible.” [Massacres of Poles in Volhynia ], There exist a several documented cases when such redistributed arms to Poles self-defense units were confiscated by Nazi’s and such Polish settlements were immediately after exterminated by OUN/UPA. Some survived Poles found shelter near the Soviet partisan’s camps. [35] In second half of 1943 in some areas they together with polish self defense units conducted cooperative actions against UPA; in 1944 such actions reached a larger scale. [36]
In these instructions to his chief henchmen Rosenberg outlines the political aims and purposes of the attack. …. The Ukraine shall become an independent state in alliance with Germany
We greet the victorious German Army as deliver from enemy. We render our obedient homage to the government which has been erected. We recognize Mr.Yaroslav Stetsko as Head of State Administration of the Ukraine. The pastoral letter was read over the radio by chaplain of Nachtigall Battalion Father Hryn’okh the same morning. It appeared to have removed any doubts which may have been lingering in the mind of most prominent Ukrainians in Lviv concerning the origin of the Stets’ko government. [12
Indeed it can’t be found at Ukrainian Diaspora source what OUN/UPA adopt a Hitler salute as official greetings
But WP is not Ukrainian Diaspora Online property – so cooperative effort to hoax WP [5] by Blank Spots in the Collective Memory of the Ukrainian Diaspora should be limited Jo0doe ( talk) 16:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainian nationalism incorporated little modern anti- Semitic ideology
It's a articles about past not modern. Read carefully "Blank spot" article-- Jo0doe ( talk) 08:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
A classic example of article disruption by Jo0doe ( talk) . Here is the reversion: [7]. Wikipedia is based on secondary sources. The article, referenced to secondary sources such as Timothy Snyder, states that: "During 1939-1941 1.450 million inhabitants were deported by the Soviet authorities, of whom 63.1% were Poles, and 7.4% were Jews.[6] Others escaped from the Soviet-occupied territories to the areas controlled by Germans. Several hundred thousand Poles died at the hands of Soviets, including Polish officers from Sovietannexed territories murdered by NKVD in the Katyn massacre, and others.[7] [8] The deportations and murders deprived the Poles of their community leaders."
Jo0doe ( talk) apparently decided that the reliable secondary sources indicated that the Soviets were too brutal, so he tried to add archival data to contradict the conclusions of the secondary source [8]: According to declassified NKVD data 309-321 thousands of Poland citizens were deported in 1940-41 from annexed by USSR Poland territory, of those 10864 was died by July 1, 1941. Amongst them non less then 80 thousands were Jews refugees. From captured and interned in 1939-40 130 242 of Polish Army military personnel 42 400 were released , approximately 43 thousands transferred to occupied by Germans territory, 15131 were executed in 1940. While according to Timothy Snyder, several hundred thousand Poles died at the hands of Soviets, including the Polish officers from Soviet occupied Poland murdered by NKVD in the Katyn massacre, and others.[7] [8].
So, we see Jo0doe ( talk) using original research to try to discredit a reliable secondary source on an article page. This disuptive editor has beendoing such tricks on the UPA page and the Holodomor page for months, then engaging in low level revert wars to try to include his version. This has been going on for months. Because he has been allowed to continue, we see the pattern of his disruptions expanding into other articles such as this one. When will he finally be blocked? Any admins following this article? Faustian ( talk) 14:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
He has been trying to do the same in the Russian wiki and Ukrainian wiki. The reaction to him there has been swift and strong. Here people are too nice to him.
Bandurist (
talk)
16:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Editors now try spoil the WP:Credibility by including deliberately in it propaganda originated from student work - see
[9] and similar quality of other sources by cooperative of editor.-- Jo0doe ( talk) 14:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Collaboration in Eastern Galicia: The Ukrainian police and the Holocaust Gabriel N. Finder; Alexander V. Prusin
East European Jewish Affairs, Vol. 34, No. 2, Winter 2004, pp. 95–118 ISSN 1350-1674 (print); 1743-971X (online)
Some text would be useful for article.
The Soviet occupation of eastern Galicia from September 1939 to June 1941 reinforced Ukrainian national ambitions in the region. Since Soviet rule spelled the demise of the despised Polish state, a considerable number of Ukrainians initially welcomed the Soviets and occupied higher levels in the Soviet administration.
Ukrainian collaboration purposefully enabled the redistribution of social capital and space in the region in an effort to establish a nationally homogenous Ukrainian state, a ‘Ukraine for Ukrainians’. A Ukrainian police force was a cornerstone of this policy
While Ukrainian police forces distinguished themselves in Lwow, they were active helpers of the Germans throughout eastern Galicia, in the countryside as well as in towns. The Ukrainian police was also deployed in the repression of the area’s Polish population. For example, on 1 November 1941 Ukrainian policemen in Stanislawow took part in a mass round-up of the Polish intelligentsia (and the city’s Jews). The Ukrainian police actively participated in round-ups of Poles for forced labour in Germany. In their marching songs Ukrainian policemen would sing ‘death to the Lakhs [Poles] and the Judeo-Moscovite commune.’59 The brevity of this essay does not permit us to discuss the role of Ukrainian police forces in the persecution of ethnic Poles, but in this regard we would like to make one observation. Within the context of the Ukrainian restructuring of western Ukraine (eastern Galicia and Volhynia), Poles constituted a significant threat to Ukrainian aspirations of hegemony in the region. Thus in Volhynia in March 1943 and then in Galicia in August of the same year the leadership of OUN-B initiated the forcible mass removal of the Polish population in which deserters from the Ukrainian police force in Volhynia played a
conspicuous role.
and esppecially that conclusion
Violence generated by war and escalating to genocide became the tool of Ukrainian nationalist dreams, laying the foundations for a prospective – and chimerical – Ukrainian state on the basis of conquest, subjugation and, ultimately, the annihilation of Ukraine’s principal enemies in eastern Ukraine – Jews and Poles.
-- Jo0doe ( talk) 13:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Jo: You can get more pertenant information like this from the Flat Earth Society site here and discuss it on the forum here. They would appreciate your "scholarly" input and erudition. Bandurist ( talk) 13:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
The article says Cases where Polish police collaborating with the NKVD handed over documentation regarding the activities of Ukrainian nationalists were common. What Polish police was allowed to act in Volhynia under Soviet occupation ? I'm interested in the original context of this information in the source as I expect this sentence is misplaced in the article. -- Lysy talk 15:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
The current version seems to changed repeatedly by a Polish user in a way that seems to deliberately cloud issues involving certain Polish actions. With respect to the book Timothy Snyder, The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999, Yale University Press, ISBN 0-300-10586-X Google Books, Snyder states that Polish kapos murdered Bandera's brothers. He also stated that In the Chelm region, 394 Ukrainian community leaders were said to have been killed by the Poles on the grounds of Nazi collaboration. An editor unhappy with these facts places "Allegedly" before the first one and a "check" tag after the second, even though the second fact is referenced by the book and page number (it is incidentally in the first paragraph on that page). If we decide to do this kind of thing to facts we don't like, a Ukrainian editor with similar attitudes can just as easily add "alleged" in front of and "check" after any referenced fact about Ukrainian crimes. If a fact is referenced, please leave it alone. Faustian ( talk) 11:37, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Please see: [10]. Someone changed the article to state the 100 abandoned churches were converted, which is blatantly not what the source stated. Let's not let nationalism cloud one's edits. Faustian ( talk) 23:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
If the edit warrring continues, I'll protect this article. Please discuss things on talk, not just edit war.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:33, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
A perfect collections – isn’t:
While a “wrong history” removed without explanation
Simply because they not allow to perpetrate a hoax in WP for cooperative of editors.
As you’ve point out – no discussion intent exist – simply provocative messages Jo0doe ( talk) 19:28, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Taking into account the recent edits - I can conlcude what affort were given to hoax the WP by distorting the facts and give a wrong emphasis to events -- Jo0doe ( talk) 07:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
So – just another “Austrian officer” case. So here article which reflected the OUN-B activities [Massacres of Poles in Volhynia ], [Ukrainian Insurgent Army ] [Proclamation of Ukrainian statehood, 1941] allegedly claimed as “Ukrainian topic” – not – it actually should be placed as Galician’s Fascist activities category – it’s may be for some extremists look like Ukrainian, but that is not true. As regards hoaxing – see a short list of such http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army/Archive_03#WP:NOHOAXES – most of them perpetrated by editor recently nominated me as “troll” and “clown”. All edit warring as spin around explained in War Criminality: A Blank Spot in the Collective Memory of the Ukrainian Diaspora by J O H N - P A U L H I M K A
OUN -B General Instruction adopted in 1941 “ Fights and activities during the war” stated “enemies to us are: moskali (Russians), Poles, Jews…” and thus them must be“… exterminated in fight, especially whom which protect regime: remove to their land, assassinate, predominantly intelligentsia… Jews assimilation is impossible.” [Massacres of Poles in Volhynia ], There exist a several documented cases when such redistributed arms to Poles self-defense units were confiscated by Nazi’s and such Polish settlements were immediately after exterminated by OUN/UPA. Some survived Poles found shelter near the Soviet partisan’s camps. [35] In second half of 1943 in some areas they together with polish self defense units conducted cooperative actions against UPA; in 1944 such actions reached a larger scale. [36]
In these instructions to his chief henchmen Rosenberg outlines the political aims and purposes of the attack. …. The Ukraine shall become an independent state in alliance with Germany
We greet the victorious German Army as deliver from enemy. We render our obedient homage to the government which has been erected. We recognize Mr.Yaroslav Stetsko as Head of State Administration of the Ukraine. The pastoral letter was read over the radio by chaplain of Nachtigall Battalion Father Hryn’okh the same morning. It appeared to have removed any doubts which may have been lingering in the mind of most prominent Ukrainians in Lviv concerning the origin of the Stets’ko government. [12
Indeed it can’t be found at Ukrainian Diaspora source what OUN/UPA adopt a Hitler salute as official greetings
But WP is not Ukrainian Diaspora Online property – so cooperative effort to hoax WP [5] by Blank Spots in the Collective Memory of the Ukrainian Diaspora should be limited Jo0doe ( talk) 16:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Ukrainian nationalism incorporated little modern anti- Semitic ideology
It's a articles about past not modern. Read carefully "Blank spot" article-- Jo0doe ( talk) 08:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
A classic example of article disruption by Jo0doe ( talk) . Here is the reversion: [7]. Wikipedia is based on secondary sources. The article, referenced to secondary sources such as Timothy Snyder, states that: "During 1939-1941 1.450 million inhabitants were deported by the Soviet authorities, of whom 63.1% were Poles, and 7.4% were Jews.[6] Others escaped from the Soviet-occupied territories to the areas controlled by Germans. Several hundred thousand Poles died at the hands of Soviets, including Polish officers from Sovietannexed territories murdered by NKVD in the Katyn massacre, and others.[7] [8] The deportations and murders deprived the Poles of their community leaders."
Jo0doe ( talk) apparently decided that the reliable secondary sources indicated that the Soviets were too brutal, so he tried to add archival data to contradict the conclusions of the secondary source [8]: According to declassified NKVD data 309-321 thousands of Poland citizens were deported in 1940-41 from annexed by USSR Poland territory, of those 10864 was died by July 1, 1941. Amongst them non less then 80 thousands were Jews refugees. From captured and interned in 1939-40 130 242 of Polish Army military personnel 42 400 were released , approximately 43 thousands transferred to occupied by Germans territory, 15131 were executed in 1940. While according to Timothy Snyder, several hundred thousand Poles died at the hands of Soviets, including the Polish officers from Soviet occupied Poland murdered by NKVD in the Katyn massacre, and others.[7] [8].
So, we see Jo0doe ( talk) using original research to try to discredit a reliable secondary source on an article page. This disuptive editor has beendoing such tricks on the UPA page and the Holodomor page for months, then engaging in low level revert wars to try to include his version. This has been going on for months. Because he has been allowed to continue, we see the pattern of his disruptions expanding into other articles such as this one. When will he finally be blocked? Any admins following this article? Faustian ( talk) 14:08, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
He has been trying to do the same in the Russian wiki and Ukrainian wiki. The reaction to him there has been swift and strong. Here people are too nice to him.
Bandurist (
talk)
16:14, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Editors now try spoil the WP:Credibility by including deliberately in it propaganda originated from student work - see
[9] and similar quality of other sources by cooperative of editor.-- Jo0doe ( talk) 14:30, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Collaboration in Eastern Galicia: The Ukrainian police and the Holocaust Gabriel N. Finder; Alexander V. Prusin
East European Jewish Affairs, Vol. 34, No. 2, Winter 2004, pp. 95–118 ISSN 1350-1674 (print); 1743-971X (online)
Some text would be useful for article.
The Soviet occupation of eastern Galicia from September 1939 to June 1941 reinforced Ukrainian national ambitions in the region. Since Soviet rule spelled the demise of the despised Polish state, a considerable number of Ukrainians initially welcomed the Soviets and occupied higher levels in the Soviet administration.
Ukrainian collaboration purposefully enabled the redistribution of social capital and space in the region in an effort to establish a nationally homogenous Ukrainian state, a ‘Ukraine for Ukrainians’. A Ukrainian police force was a cornerstone of this policy
While Ukrainian police forces distinguished themselves in Lwow, they were active helpers of the Germans throughout eastern Galicia, in the countryside as well as in towns. The Ukrainian police was also deployed in the repression of the area’s Polish population. For example, on 1 November 1941 Ukrainian policemen in Stanislawow took part in a mass round-up of the Polish intelligentsia (and the city’s Jews). The Ukrainian police actively participated in round-ups of Poles for forced labour in Germany. In their marching songs Ukrainian policemen would sing ‘death to the Lakhs [Poles] and the Judeo-Moscovite commune.’59 The brevity of this essay does not permit us to discuss the role of Ukrainian police forces in the persecution of ethnic Poles, but in this regard we would like to make one observation. Within the context of the Ukrainian restructuring of western Ukraine (eastern Galicia and Volhynia), Poles constituted a significant threat to Ukrainian aspirations of hegemony in the region. Thus in Volhynia in March 1943 and then in Galicia in August of the same year the leadership of OUN-B initiated the forcible mass removal of the Polish population in which deserters from the Ukrainian police force in Volhynia played a
conspicuous role.
and esppecially that conclusion
Violence generated by war and escalating to genocide became the tool of Ukrainian nationalist dreams, laying the foundations for a prospective – and chimerical – Ukrainian state on the basis of conquest, subjugation and, ultimately, the annihilation of Ukraine’s principal enemies in eastern Ukraine – Jews and Poles.
-- Jo0doe ( talk) 13:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Jo: You can get more pertenant information like this from the Flat Earth Society site here and discuss it on the forum here. They would appreciate your "scholarly" input and erudition. Bandurist ( talk) 13:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
The article says Cases where Polish police collaborating with the NKVD handed over documentation regarding the activities of Ukrainian nationalists were common. What Polish police was allowed to act in Volhynia under Soviet occupation ? I'm interested in the original context of this information in the source as I expect this sentence is misplaced in the article. -- Lysy talk 15:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
The current version seems to changed repeatedly by a Polish user in a way that seems to deliberately cloud issues involving certain Polish actions. With respect to the book Timothy Snyder, The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999, Yale University Press, ISBN 0-300-10586-X Google Books, Snyder states that Polish kapos murdered Bandera's brothers. He also stated that In the Chelm region, 394 Ukrainian community leaders were said to have been killed by the Poles on the grounds of Nazi collaboration. An editor unhappy with these facts places "Allegedly" before the first one and a "check" tag after the second, even though the second fact is referenced by the book and page number (it is incidentally in the first paragraph on that page). If we decide to do this kind of thing to facts we don't like, a Ukrainian editor with similar attitudes can just as easily add "alleged" in front of and "check" after any referenced fact about Ukrainian crimes. If a fact is referenced, please leave it alone. Faustian ( talk) 11:37, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Please see: [10]. Someone changed the article to state the 100 abandoned churches were converted, which is blatantly not what the source stated. Let's not let nationalism cloud one's edits. Faustian ( talk) 23:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC)