![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys8b.JPG or http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys5b.JPG Best regards
Let's take a photo from Polish version of this article - children nailed to the tree. I think it would be more "illustrative" about the real suffer.... Merewyn 13:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The Polish wiki page devoted to UPA relies on, to put it charitably, nonscientific sources of little value such as the works of Wiktor Poliszczuk and are hardly a model for this page, which is objective and of much higher quality. Faustian 14:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Rzeczpospolita new article is a good proof the image of the children is NOT related to this article. That said it may be notable to create an article on it (and/or the monument), and how the misconception arose.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The author is a sociologist, not a historian. When presenting such shocking information it seems that we ought to be extra careful about the source and limit ourselves to historians, encyclopedia, or such rather than self-published non-historians such as Poliszczuk or journalists. Piotrowski is less dubious than Wiktor Poliszczuk (whose claims I have removed from this article) but still, he is a professor of sociology rather than of history. There are many historians doing work on this subject (such as Torzecki or Rafal Wnuk of the Institute of National Remembrance ), why not use their information? Faustian 19:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
M. Siwicki (Zapysky siroho Volyniaka - Lviv 1996 - p.39) states that the census of 1931 was falsified. The Polish census stated that of the 2,085,574 people living in Volhyn only 1,428,341 (68.9%) were Ukrainian.
Siwicki further states Hernyk Josewski (Wspomnienia "Zeszyty historyczne' Paryz, 1982 nr 60 s. 72) stated that the true population was made up of Ukrainains 80%. Poles 16%. Significant numbers of Jews lived in the cities. There were some Russians and Czechs and Germans.
Education was in a terrible state. Basically the reverse of the population. In the middle schools 344 (14%) Ukrainians to 2599 Poles. Of the 80 Ukrainians who qualified to get into Tertiary studies only 3 were accepted in 1938/9. (Siwicki p.40)
The 1931 census gives 3,762,500 Orthodox christians in Vohlyn - 69% Ukrainian, 29 % Belorusan, 2-3% Russian, Czechs and Poles.
In 1926 at a conference regarding the Ukrainian problem the Polish minister of religion and education Antoni Sujkowski stated that that Volyn was 80% Ukrainian. (Siwicki p.63) In 1926 the Polish Policy called the "Volyn program" was announced by Josewski for the state assimilation of Volyn. The "Sokalski" administrative border was set up to stop the dissemination of literature from the more educated Ukrainians in Halychyna to Volyn.
Skorowidz miejscowosc Rzeczpospolitej Polskiej wedlug spisu z 30.IX.1921 r. wojewodstwo Wolynskie gives for the whole of Volyn: Roman Catholics - 1,666,512 Orthodox - 1,066,842 Poles - 240,922 Rusyns - 983,596
Siwicki (p 182) questions where 74, 410 Poles had appeared who were not Roman Catholic. From the statistics published Siwicki states that the accuracy of the 1931 census is in doubt.
Serhiychuk (Deportatsiya Poliakiv z Ukrainy Kyiv, 1999) gives population make up according to the Russian census for 1914 as: 1. Kovel area - P(oles) 4.59%, R(ussian) 3.83%, Ukr. 78.49%, Germ 0.90%, Jews 11.48%, other 5.79% 2. Kremenetz P=3%, R=3.37%, Uk=82.72, Jews=12.23, other 0.68% 3. Lutsk - P=9.7%, R=5.19%, Uk-59.96%, G-12%, Jews=14.13% other 2.02 4.Ostroh - P=6.61%, R=3.48%, Ukr 76.68%, Ger=8.94%, Jews=10.80. Other 1.94% 5. Rivne - P=9.19%, R=3.48%, Ukr=72/09%, Ger=8.94%, Jews 15.97% other 1.94% 6. Volodymyr Volynsk - P=9.19%, R. 3.48%, Ukr 72.09%, Ger 8.94%, jews 15.97, other 1.94 7. Dubno - P=6.51%, R=4.46%, Ukr 68.22, Ger 3.54, Jews 11.48, other 5.79%
altogether: 1. Kovel area - 4,100 Poles 2. Kremenetz - 9800 Poles 3. Lutsk - 13,300 Poles 4. Ostroh - 15,500 Poles 5. Rivne - 19,600 Poles 6. Volodymyr Volynsk - 22,000 Poles 7. Dubno - 9,900
Altogether 76,500 Poles in Volhyn (Serhiychuk p 4.)
Bandurist 11:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC) 01:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Reconciliation is a difficult topic to address, mainly because UPA (UIA) did not act on the orders of any Ukrainian government, and as a military formation has not been recognized by the current Ukrainain government. As a result officially there is nothing to apologise for as the current government of Ukraine has nothing directly to do with the actions. It is obviously sorry that such an act happened, but it was not responsible in any way. This should by all fairness be somehow mentioned in that section.
Keep in mind that there were 2 UPA's. The first was the Vohlynian organized by Taras Bulba-Borovetz and on the other side of the Sokalski border the Galician UPA which formed later and was under Bandera banner. Tey functioned and worked differently. Bandurist 11:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
If you review for example the citizenship of the victims and the proponents you have another view. The Visla action was done by Poles to other Polish citizens of a different ethnicity. The Nazi crimes were done by a people agains other ethnicities and religions. The Katyn massacres were done to "allies", ie not to their own citizens, but to foreign soldiers and disarmed ones. All these actions were done from a situation of power against people with no course of defence. The Volhyn tragedy was done by Polish citizens (in this case of Ukrainian ethnicity) against Polish citizens (of Polish ethnicity) as a direct result and consequence of the Polish government policies implemented after 1926. Please excuse me if I am trying to split hairs here, but to me there is a significant difference. Bandurist 18:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
On August 25, 1943, German occupational authorities ordered all Poles to leave villages and settlements and move to bigger towns. Yuryi Kirichuk wrote that the Germans were egging both sides on each other. Erich Koch once said: "We have to do everything possible so that a Pole, while meeting a Ukrainian, would be willing to kill him and conversely, a Ukrainian would be willing to kill a Pole". Also, Kirichuk quotes a German commissioner from Sarny who, when Poles complained about massacres, answered: "You want Sikorski, the Ukrainians want Bandura. Fight each other". [10].
I thing the quotation needs to be checked. A BAndura is a musical instrument. Maybe they want Bandera here? - However Bandera was virtually unknown in Volyn. Bulba-Borets was the leader there. Bandurist 19:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Even though this is an interesting subject, I think that too much attention was devoted to it in the article. This article is about Massacres, not about oppresion. Obviously, Oppression of Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic should be mentioned, but not to such a large degree, together with state of the Orthodox Church in pre-1939 Poland, which has little to do with the subject. IMHO a separate article should be created, using information presented here and obviously linked with massacres. Therefore, I want to trim this section, and I am hoping that some Ukrainian editors will come up with an article about Oppression of Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic. Waiting for opinions Tymek ( talk) 17:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
The article takes claim by Ukrainian historian that up to 300.000 Poles were settled in Volhyn alone. The Osadnik article writes that Soviets identified only 115.000 as osadnicy and they included even people who bought the land themselfs.-- Molobo ( talk) 14:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys8b.JPG or http://genocide007.webpark.pl/1024x768/rys5b.JPG Best regards
Let's take a photo from Polish version of this article - children nailed to the tree. I think it would be more "illustrative" about the real suffer.... Merewyn 13:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The Polish wiki page devoted to UPA relies on, to put it charitably, nonscientific sources of little value such as the works of Wiktor Poliszczuk and are hardly a model for this page, which is objective and of much higher quality. Faustian 14:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Rzeczpospolita new article is a good proof the image of the children is NOT related to this article. That said it may be notable to create an article on it (and/or the monument), and how the misconception arose.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 16:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
The author is a sociologist, not a historian. When presenting such shocking information it seems that we ought to be extra careful about the source and limit ourselves to historians, encyclopedia, or such rather than self-published non-historians such as Poliszczuk or journalists. Piotrowski is less dubious than Wiktor Poliszczuk (whose claims I have removed from this article) but still, he is a professor of sociology rather than of history. There are many historians doing work on this subject (such as Torzecki or Rafal Wnuk of the Institute of National Remembrance ), why not use their information? Faustian 19:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
M. Siwicki (Zapysky siroho Volyniaka - Lviv 1996 - p.39) states that the census of 1931 was falsified. The Polish census stated that of the 2,085,574 people living in Volhyn only 1,428,341 (68.9%) were Ukrainian.
Siwicki further states Hernyk Josewski (Wspomnienia "Zeszyty historyczne' Paryz, 1982 nr 60 s. 72) stated that the true population was made up of Ukrainains 80%. Poles 16%. Significant numbers of Jews lived in the cities. There were some Russians and Czechs and Germans.
Education was in a terrible state. Basically the reverse of the population. In the middle schools 344 (14%) Ukrainians to 2599 Poles. Of the 80 Ukrainians who qualified to get into Tertiary studies only 3 were accepted in 1938/9. (Siwicki p.40)
The 1931 census gives 3,762,500 Orthodox christians in Vohlyn - 69% Ukrainian, 29 % Belorusan, 2-3% Russian, Czechs and Poles.
In 1926 at a conference regarding the Ukrainian problem the Polish minister of religion and education Antoni Sujkowski stated that that Volyn was 80% Ukrainian. (Siwicki p.63) In 1926 the Polish Policy called the "Volyn program" was announced by Josewski for the state assimilation of Volyn. The "Sokalski" administrative border was set up to stop the dissemination of literature from the more educated Ukrainians in Halychyna to Volyn.
Skorowidz miejscowosc Rzeczpospolitej Polskiej wedlug spisu z 30.IX.1921 r. wojewodstwo Wolynskie gives for the whole of Volyn: Roman Catholics - 1,666,512 Orthodox - 1,066,842 Poles - 240,922 Rusyns - 983,596
Siwicki (p 182) questions where 74, 410 Poles had appeared who were not Roman Catholic. From the statistics published Siwicki states that the accuracy of the 1931 census is in doubt.
Serhiychuk (Deportatsiya Poliakiv z Ukrainy Kyiv, 1999) gives population make up according to the Russian census for 1914 as: 1. Kovel area - P(oles) 4.59%, R(ussian) 3.83%, Ukr. 78.49%, Germ 0.90%, Jews 11.48%, other 5.79% 2. Kremenetz P=3%, R=3.37%, Uk=82.72, Jews=12.23, other 0.68% 3. Lutsk - P=9.7%, R=5.19%, Uk-59.96%, G-12%, Jews=14.13% other 2.02 4.Ostroh - P=6.61%, R=3.48%, Ukr 76.68%, Ger=8.94%, Jews=10.80. Other 1.94% 5. Rivne - P=9.19%, R=3.48%, Ukr=72/09%, Ger=8.94%, Jews 15.97% other 1.94% 6. Volodymyr Volynsk - P=9.19%, R. 3.48%, Ukr 72.09%, Ger 8.94%, jews 15.97, other 1.94 7. Dubno - P=6.51%, R=4.46%, Ukr 68.22, Ger 3.54, Jews 11.48, other 5.79%
altogether: 1. Kovel area - 4,100 Poles 2. Kremenetz - 9800 Poles 3. Lutsk - 13,300 Poles 4. Ostroh - 15,500 Poles 5. Rivne - 19,600 Poles 6. Volodymyr Volynsk - 22,000 Poles 7. Dubno - 9,900
Altogether 76,500 Poles in Volhyn (Serhiychuk p 4.)
Bandurist 11:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC) 01:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Reconciliation is a difficult topic to address, mainly because UPA (UIA) did not act on the orders of any Ukrainian government, and as a military formation has not been recognized by the current Ukrainain government. As a result officially there is nothing to apologise for as the current government of Ukraine has nothing directly to do with the actions. It is obviously sorry that such an act happened, but it was not responsible in any way. This should by all fairness be somehow mentioned in that section.
Keep in mind that there were 2 UPA's. The first was the Vohlynian organized by Taras Bulba-Borovetz and on the other side of the Sokalski border the Galician UPA which formed later and was under Bandera banner. Tey functioned and worked differently. Bandurist 11:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
If you review for example the citizenship of the victims and the proponents you have another view. The Visla action was done by Poles to other Polish citizens of a different ethnicity. The Nazi crimes were done by a people agains other ethnicities and religions. The Katyn massacres were done to "allies", ie not to their own citizens, but to foreign soldiers and disarmed ones. All these actions were done from a situation of power against people with no course of defence. The Volhyn tragedy was done by Polish citizens (in this case of Ukrainian ethnicity) against Polish citizens (of Polish ethnicity) as a direct result and consequence of the Polish government policies implemented after 1926. Please excuse me if I am trying to split hairs here, but to me there is a significant difference. Bandurist 18:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
On August 25, 1943, German occupational authorities ordered all Poles to leave villages and settlements and move to bigger towns. Yuryi Kirichuk wrote that the Germans were egging both sides on each other. Erich Koch once said: "We have to do everything possible so that a Pole, while meeting a Ukrainian, would be willing to kill him and conversely, a Ukrainian would be willing to kill a Pole". Also, Kirichuk quotes a German commissioner from Sarny who, when Poles complained about massacres, answered: "You want Sikorski, the Ukrainians want Bandura. Fight each other". [10].
I thing the quotation needs to be checked. A BAndura is a musical instrument. Maybe they want Bandera here? - However Bandera was virtually unknown in Volyn. Bulba-Borets was the leader there. Bandurist 19:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Even though this is an interesting subject, I think that too much attention was devoted to it in the article. This article is about Massacres, not about oppresion. Obviously, Oppression of Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic should be mentioned, but not to such a large degree, together with state of the Orthodox Church in pre-1939 Poland, which has little to do with the subject. IMHO a separate article should be created, using information presented here and obviously linked with massacres. Therefore, I want to trim this section, and I am hoping that some Ukrainian editors will come up with an article about Oppression of Ukrainian minority in the Second Polish Republic. Waiting for opinions Tymek ( talk) 17:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
The article takes claim by Ukrainian historian that up to 300.000 Poles were settled in Volhyn alone. The Osadnik article writes that Soviets identified only 115.000 as osadnicy and they included even people who bought the land themselfs.-- Molobo ( talk) 14:15, 15 January 2008 (UTC)