![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Why was this source [1] removed [2] (Michał Klimecki (born 1952) - Polish historian [3])? - GizzyCatBella 🍁 17:07, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
that's hard to square with 10,000 Ukrainian civilians killed by Poles in 1943, according to Snyder. While Volunteer Marek's objection is that
Snyder did not say that. Not to be pedantic, but the WP:BURDEN to confirm the veracity of your claim actually rests on you. VM should not be expected to prove a negative. That is not a thing. El_C 03:08, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
He earlier clarifies that there are many Poles in both German police and Soviet partisans. It seems that Klimecki is writing about the AK, but the ethnic conflict is more general than that.Over the course of 1943, perhaps ten thousand Ukrainian civilians were killed by Polish self-defence units, Soviet partisans and German policemen: only a fifth of the number of Polish victims, and not killed in the name of the Polish nation, but enough to create the image of massive and senseless suffering and violence.87 The UPA found itself with new recruits: 'I was in the woods', as one Volhynian Ukrainian woman later recalled before her death at Auschwitz, 'to avenge my family'. (p. 224)
10,000 Ukrainian civilians killed by Poles in 1943. But from that passage, I still think Volunteer Marek is right that Snyder is not actually saying that. First, he is saying "perhaps," which I am reading as "as high as" 10,000. Then there's the matter of the two non-purely-Polish forces he includes: Soviet partisans and German policemen. Further, he completely neglects to provide (at least in that passage you cite) any qualifications about the relative scale of all three. Like relative size of each force, number of civilians killed by each, and indeed, also the number of Poles in each. And, yes, I'm seeing you trying to bolster your position by saying that Snyder
earlier clarifies that there [were] many Poles in both German police and Soviet partisans.But I hope you also see the problem in trying to quantify "many." I mean, 50 percent is many. So is 80 percent. Thus, taking the logical leap of: Poles (per se.)→10,000 killings, ends up stretching matters — maybe by a little, maybe by a lot. But some. I realize the problem of making sense of wartime historical demography. That's why all of you need to find a way to gauge those
different estimatesto arrive at something which you all can live with and is coherent to you. And if you need to go with very broad strokes and then qualify the shit out of that, then that's what you do. Absolutely agree with everything you say about the IPN. Hopefully, everyone treads carefully as far as using it as a scholarly resource. El_C 04:17, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Not sure how applicable it is to this discussion, but I just wanted to make sure everyone noticed my
note about the
APL sourcing requirement — in that it is not currently in effect for this page.
El_C
01:20, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
"to cover all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland.”link to motion --> [7] This article is about the Polish history during the World War II. I believe you were correct in a first place and not mistaken. This motion applies here....see below for the full text - GizzyCatBella 🍁 18:10, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
5) The sourcing expectations applied to the article Collaboration in German-occupied Poland are expanded and adapted to cover all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals, academically focused books by reputable publishers, and/or articles published by reputable institutions. English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance. Editors repeatedly failing to meet this standard may be topic-banned as an arbitration enforcement action.
..articles related to the history of Jews and antisemitism in Poland during World War II (1933–45), including the Holocaust in Poland.but the first one and sourcing expectations do apply. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 18:23, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
* Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals and academically focused books by reputable publishers. English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance. * Anyone found to be misrepresenting a source, either in the article or on the talk page, will be subject to escalating topic bans.link to that diff ---> [9] (note - I'm not quoting NeilN to "get Buidhe", it's just for reference, although I seriously think Buidhe should be warned about the consequences...maybe she is not aware.) I believe all of the above should be put together and in one place to be simple to find and avoid confusion. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 18:57, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Is there anyone who thinks that the article is better with the infobox? So far, no one has expressed such an opinion. ( t · c) buidhe 23:26, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Buidhe, I don't want to be a "pain in the butt", but why you just tagged Bogusław Paź from Wrocław University [10]/his book about the Volhynia massacres [11] and Lucyna Kulińska/ her book about the Volhynia massacres [12] as "unreliable sources" [13]?
− | ''Przemilczane w ukraińskiej historiografii przyczyny ludobójstwa popełnionego przez OUN-UPA na ludności polskiej'' ''Prawda historyczna na prawda polityczna w badaniach naukowych. Przykład ludobójstwa na Kresach Południowo-Wschodniej Polski w latach 1939–1946'', Bogusław Paź (edition), Wrocław | + | ''Przemilczane w ukraińskiej historiografii przyczyny ludobójstwa popełnionego przez OUN-UPA na ludności polskiej'' ''Prawda historyczna na prawda polityczna w badaniach naukowych. Przykład ludobójstwa na Kresach Południowo-Wschodniej Polski w latach 1939–1946'', Bogusław Paź (edition), Wrocław (unreliable source) |
− | Lucyna Kulińska "Dzieci Kresów III", Kraków 2009 | + | Lucyna Kulińska "Dzieci Kresów III", Kraków 2009 (unreliable source) |
- GizzyCatBella 🍁 06:09, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
killed by Ukrainian nationalists, 1939–1945?(bold is my emphasis). So, why was that stated with the uncertainty of a question? I wonder. Regardless, VM's translation above shows that the source's actual view about this is unambiguous. Indeed, flattening this somewhat uncertain description (question) into the pure agnosticism of
exact perpetrator not specifiedis a strange turn. One which I am struggling to explain. El_C 08:26, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
User:Buidhe, regarding this
[17] edit summary of yours --> quote: "restoring deleted information about Polish killings of Ukrainian civilians, which is essential to understanding the context and trigger of this event"
as well as your edit and other edits to this article. Please note, none of the sources present in this article and no historian (I'm aware of) claim that "Polish killings of Ukrainian civilians was a trigger of the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia". I mentioned you in my comment here
[18]. Please take note of that and be informed of it moving forward. Thank you. -
GizzyCatBella
🍁
23:03, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Text:
"others, including Waldemar Rezmer, use the word "Zagłada", originally applied to the Final Solution, to describe them.[179][180]"
clarification of sources:
"others[179]," (who?)
"including Waldemar Rezmer, use the word "Zagłada"[180],"
"originally applied to the Final Solution[179],"
"to describe them.[179][180]"
First problem:
important part "originally applied to the Final Solution" would be supported only by [179]
would be because:
source: "previously reserved to define the Nazi extermination of the Jews"
text: "originally applied to the Final Solution"
Do I need to explain difference of these two statements?
second problem:
"including Waldemar Rezmer, use the word "Zagłada"[180]" -
Does he really? Because source clearly says "zagłada" (lowercase) not "Zagłada" (capitalised word). There is "Zagłada Korościatyna" in the source, but that's by Fr. Tadeusz Isakowicz-Zaleski not Rezmer (And you cannot prove without doubt that he (Fr) used capitalised word, not that was just lowercase word that was capitalised by fact that it's a name of something).
The thing about source [179] here: it uses "Zagłada" very clearly with capital. Not "zagłada" which constitutes a common word (fact that the Polish language does not use articles does not help).
Wiedzosław ( talk) 15:04, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
How can you deny that the Volhynia Massacre was a genocide if in you're very article you have the following statement:
The decision of ethnic cleansing of the area east of the Bug River was taken by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army early in 1943. In March 1943, the OUN(B) (specifically Mykola Lebed[162]) imposed a collective death sentence of all Poles living in the former east of the Second Polish Republic, and a few months later, local units of the UPA were instructed to complete the operation soon.
A collective death sentence of all Poles. This explicitly implies that the massacre was a genocide. Or are you going to delate this passage as well? It's scandalous what has been done with this article in the recent years. Tim Ocean ( talk) 22:41, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Why is this page under "Wikipedia articles needing factual verification from July 2009"? I think it should be removed. -- Gustamons ( talk) 17:06, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The very last sentence of 'Eastern Galicia' section currently says The massacre is believed to be an act of retaliation for earlier alleged murders by Ukrainian Insurgent Army of 9 or 11 Poles in Pawłokoma and unspecified number of Poles killed by of the UPA in the neighboring villages. "by of the UPA" should be changed to something that makes sense, either remove "of" and just leave "by the UPA" or add some clarifying words, like "by forces of the UPA" or whatever is appropriate here. OlezhkaG ( talk) 16:41, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "by of the UPA" to "by the UPA" in this sentence: The author of the book, IPN's historian Romuald Niedzielko, documented 1341 cases in which Ukrainian civilians helped their Polish neighbours, which caused 384 Ukrainians to be executed by of the UPA. OlezhkaG ( talk) 16:53, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change 'knowingly' to 'knowing' in the following sentence: Many of their victims who were perceived as Poles, even despite not knowingly the Polish language, were murdered by СКВ along with the others. OlezhkaG ( talk) 16:50, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove "of" before "Sarny" here, probably can remove the capital C from "Counties" as well: According to Ukrainian sources, in October 1943 the Volhynian delegation of the Polish government estimated the number of Polish casualties in of Sarny, Kostopol, Równe and Zdołbunów Counties to exceed 15,000. OlezhkaG ( talk) 17:01, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
I do not know how to do this, but I find it disturbing that the first picture I see in this article is one of dead people lying on the ground from a massacre. This picture should at least have a content warning, as it can be deeply alarming, uncomfortable, and unsettling to some people. Please consider either removing the picture altogether or fixing it so that it is not the first thing that is seen on the desktop version of this article. I believe it to be deeply disrespectful to both the dead, and to survivors of this event and the families of both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.219.147.105 ( talk) 05:12, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Hello Kashmiri, there is no need to include lots of exclamation marks in your responses. I don't know if you have family members who were killed in these tragic events, or if you even belong to the same ethnic groups, but if you do not then I see no reason why you should feel so strongly about a differing opinion here. Moreover, I did not shout at or offend you, so I am asking you to please treat me with the same respect. Thank you.
As for the article itself, it deals with more than just what happened in Volhynia - as the very name of the whole page says, it is tackling "Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia". This is more than just Volhynia; we are speaking here, again as the article itself clearly states in the first paragraph, of: "Volhynia, Eastern Galicia, parts of Polesia and Lublin region". Volhynia is only one part of this cruel and bloody puzzle.
Finally, if you scroll down to the "Estimates" section of the article you will see around a dozen sources saying that up to or more than 100,000 Poles were slain during this genocide or ethnic cleansing or whatever one calls it. The highest reliable numbers reach 200,000, though Norman Davies mentions "hundreds of thousands" which would mean anywhere from 200,000 to 999,999. However, personally I do not include Davies as a reliable source as, despite his not being Polish, he is ridiculously supportive of Polish nationalism and a raging conservative. -- Samotny Wędrowiec ( talk) 19:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Also, if I was being disingenuous then I could make the argument that the death toll is actually at well over 1 million, as the UPA and Ukrainian SS and Nazi-collaborating police killed over 800,000 Polish citizens of the Jewish faith and Soviet Jews in 1942 alone. However, this is not what I am adding to the article, as its scope is clearly the period of 1943-1945 and the focus is on gentile Poles. Besides, we have pages like The Holocaust in Ukraine to deal with this. -- Samotny Wędrowiec ( talk) 19:35, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
The Polish version of this page clearly has a lot more information than this one. I would actually consider the English version a stub. 82.46.71.77 ( talk) 14:49, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In this sentence, "where" should be "were":
Although Polish families, as the most numerous ethnic minority and in some areas majority, where the main target of the killings, victims also included Jews, Russians, Czechs, Georgians, and any Ukrainians who were part of Polish families or opposed the UPA and sabotaged the genocide by hiding Polish escapees Semuros ( talk) 12:28, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Norman Davies claims that during WW2 Ukrainian nationalists killed between 200,000 and 500,000 Poles. This figure is surprising and rather at odds with the numbers reported in this article. I copy and paste the relevant extract here below. Davies provides sources (quoted below) that I have not been able to verify. I leave it to more competent editors to assess whether and how these numbers should be cited in this article.
Norman Davies on the killing of Poles in Western Ukraine
|
---|
|
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 21:26, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In "Classification as genocide - Polish view"," On 22 July 2016"should be " On 8 July 2016". Both resources were written on 8 July 2016. MINQI ( talk) 00:03, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Lede consists of 3 paragraphs, mid paragraph currently reads:
According to Timothy Snyder, the ethnic cleansing was a Ukrainian attempt to prevent the post-war Polish state from asserting its sovereignty over Ukrainian-majority areas that had been part of the prewar Polish state. Henryk Komański and Szczepan Siekierka write that the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose goal as specified at the Second Conference of the OUN-B on 17–23 February 1943 (March 1943 in some sources) was to purge all non-Ukrainians from the future Ukrainian state. The massacres led to a conflict between Polish resistance and Ukrainian insurgency in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish Home Army in Volhynia responding to the Ukrainian attacks, on a much smaller scale.
My reading of it is as an attempt to contrasts two views of the massacres.
I don't see how these views contrast nor how there is anything contentious in either statements. If they don't contrast and are not contentious, I don't see the need to namecheck authors or present them as such.
The purpose of the lede is to summarize.
Can we simplify to .....=>
The ethnic cleansing was a Ukrainian attempt to prevent the post-war Polish state from asserting its sovereignty over Ukrainian-majority areas that had been part of the prewar Polish state. The massacres led to a conflict between Polish resistance and Ukrainian insurgency in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish Home Army in Volhynia responding to the Ukrainian attacks, on a much smaller scale.
(It is already stated clearly in paragraph 1 that UPA were perpetrators of these atrocities). -- Jabbi ( talk) 18:13, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
"Many Ukrainians perceived the 2016 resolution as an "anti-Ukrainian gesture" in the context of Vladimir Putin's attempts to use the Volhynia issue to divide Poland and Ukraine in the context of the Russian–Ukrainian war" Because this is just a feeling/opinion of a closer unknown person. The source was also not given Bukajsamesz ( talk) 22:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
The Sejm’s resolution was interpreted by many Ukrainian politicians and journalists as an “anti-Ukrainian gesture” [19] adopted in the particularly unfavourable moment of the military conflict in the Donbas region and conscious attempts of the Kremlin to use Volhynian topic to further complicate Polish-Ukrainian relations.The source even sources it. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 15:07, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Remove sentence as Failed verification/WP:SYNTH: "Others, including Waldemar Rezmer, use the word "Zagłada", originally applied to the Final Solution, to describe the massacres." - cannot attribute to Rezmer in the sources - note clear use Zagłada in source for "originally applied" but (source) instead says "previously reserved" - . Also note that Rezmer is alive so this can be considered defamatory.
Please look into Archive(12): " "zagłada" and "Zagłada" - when Capitonym happens ".- for more Wiedzosław ( talk) 22:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
This article is literally appalling and misses out on every point literally. There are so much of disinformation here whitening out polish occupation of western Ukraine and hundreds of years of enslavement of Ukrainians by Polish invadors, no mentioning of the crimes and cleansing of Ukrainian people on Ukrainian lands occupied by Poland in 1918 by AK starting from 1941. Poland was nothing more than an invador who deprived Ukraine a chance to get independence in 1918. Polish people were not just a minority enhabiting our land but the occupants who exploited Ukraine. It doesn't mentionthe confirmed facts of Russians pretending to be Ukrainians conducting the acts of violence neither mentions the influence of nazi on this tragedy. it is a fully bias polish propaganda not worthy even one minute of attention. Let's start from the point 1 polish people were occupants on the territory of Ukraine same as Russians in Crimea now. You raising up this tragic history in a distorted way will bounce back on you, many countries have historical questions to Poland indeed. i request the authority of Wiki to investigate and protect the global intellectual community from the influx of polish propaganda on your website.
And lastly Wolyn tragedy Has never been acknowledged by any country as a genocide.and you claim that it is. 81.66.219.75 ( talk) 15:35, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
A major article section surveys estimates of 10,000 to 30,000 Ukrainian dead among victims, yet they are absent from the infobox, which treats the subject as a one-sided attack and not a conflict with mass killing of civilians by more than one side. Even if that were deemed acceptable, the text tells us that a very large number of Ukrainians were among the victims of UPA, but they are omitted.
There’s a disconnect, belying WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE “to summarize . . . key facts that appear in the article.” It’s like an infobox summarizing some other article, or restricted to only selected parts of this one. — Michael Z. 13:38, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Why was this source [1] removed [2] (Michał Klimecki (born 1952) - Polish historian [3])? - GizzyCatBella 🍁 17:07, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
that's hard to square with 10,000 Ukrainian civilians killed by Poles in 1943, according to Snyder. While Volunteer Marek's objection is that
Snyder did not say that. Not to be pedantic, but the WP:BURDEN to confirm the veracity of your claim actually rests on you. VM should not be expected to prove a negative. That is not a thing. El_C 03:08, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
He earlier clarifies that there are many Poles in both German police and Soviet partisans. It seems that Klimecki is writing about the AK, but the ethnic conflict is more general than that.Over the course of 1943, perhaps ten thousand Ukrainian civilians were killed by Polish self-defence units, Soviet partisans and German policemen: only a fifth of the number of Polish victims, and not killed in the name of the Polish nation, but enough to create the image of massive and senseless suffering and violence.87 The UPA found itself with new recruits: 'I was in the woods', as one Volhynian Ukrainian woman later recalled before her death at Auschwitz, 'to avenge my family'. (p. 224)
10,000 Ukrainian civilians killed by Poles in 1943. But from that passage, I still think Volunteer Marek is right that Snyder is not actually saying that. First, he is saying "perhaps," which I am reading as "as high as" 10,000. Then there's the matter of the two non-purely-Polish forces he includes: Soviet partisans and German policemen. Further, he completely neglects to provide (at least in that passage you cite) any qualifications about the relative scale of all three. Like relative size of each force, number of civilians killed by each, and indeed, also the number of Poles in each. And, yes, I'm seeing you trying to bolster your position by saying that Snyder
earlier clarifies that there [were] many Poles in both German police and Soviet partisans.But I hope you also see the problem in trying to quantify "many." I mean, 50 percent is many. So is 80 percent. Thus, taking the logical leap of: Poles (per se.)→10,000 killings, ends up stretching matters — maybe by a little, maybe by a lot. But some. I realize the problem of making sense of wartime historical demography. That's why all of you need to find a way to gauge those
different estimatesto arrive at something which you all can live with and is coherent to you. And if you need to go with very broad strokes and then qualify the shit out of that, then that's what you do. Absolutely agree with everything you say about the IPN. Hopefully, everyone treads carefully as far as using it as a scholarly resource. El_C 04:17, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Not sure how applicable it is to this discussion, but I just wanted to make sure everyone noticed my
note about the
APL sourcing requirement — in that it is not currently in effect for this page.
El_C
01:20, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
"to cover all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland.”link to motion --> [7] This article is about the Polish history during the World War II. I believe you were correct in a first place and not mistaken. This motion applies here....see below for the full text - GizzyCatBella 🍁 18:10, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
5) The sourcing expectations applied to the article Collaboration in German-occupied Poland are expanded and adapted to cover all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals, academically focused books by reputable publishers, and/or articles published by reputable institutions. English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance. Editors repeatedly failing to meet this standard may be topic-banned as an arbitration enforcement action.
..articles related to the history of Jews and antisemitism in Poland during World War II (1933–45), including the Holocaust in Poland.but the first one and sourcing expectations do apply. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 18:23, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
* Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals and academically focused books by reputable publishers. English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance. * Anyone found to be misrepresenting a source, either in the article or on the talk page, will be subject to escalating topic bans.link to that diff ---> [9] (note - I'm not quoting NeilN to "get Buidhe", it's just for reference, although I seriously think Buidhe should be warned about the consequences...maybe she is not aware.) I believe all of the above should be put together and in one place to be simple to find and avoid confusion. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 18:57, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Is there anyone who thinks that the article is better with the infobox? So far, no one has expressed such an opinion. ( t · c) buidhe 23:26, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Buidhe, I don't want to be a "pain in the butt", but why you just tagged Bogusław Paź from Wrocław University [10]/his book about the Volhynia massacres [11] and Lucyna Kulińska/ her book about the Volhynia massacres [12] as "unreliable sources" [13]?
− | ''Przemilczane w ukraińskiej historiografii przyczyny ludobójstwa popełnionego przez OUN-UPA na ludności polskiej'' ''Prawda historyczna na prawda polityczna w badaniach naukowych. Przykład ludobójstwa na Kresach Południowo-Wschodniej Polski w latach 1939–1946'', Bogusław Paź (edition), Wrocław | + | ''Przemilczane w ukraińskiej historiografii przyczyny ludobójstwa popełnionego przez OUN-UPA na ludności polskiej'' ''Prawda historyczna na prawda polityczna w badaniach naukowych. Przykład ludobójstwa na Kresach Południowo-Wschodniej Polski w latach 1939–1946'', Bogusław Paź (edition), Wrocław (unreliable source) |
− | Lucyna Kulińska "Dzieci Kresów III", Kraków 2009 | + | Lucyna Kulińska "Dzieci Kresów III", Kraków 2009 (unreliable source) |
- GizzyCatBella 🍁 06:09, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
killed by Ukrainian nationalists, 1939–1945?(bold is my emphasis). So, why was that stated with the uncertainty of a question? I wonder. Regardless, VM's translation above shows that the source's actual view about this is unambiguous. Indeed, flattening this somewhat uncertain description (question) into the pure agnosticism of
exact perpetrator not specifiedis a strange turn. One which I am struggling to explain. El_C 08:26, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
User:Buidhe, regarding this
[17] edit summary of yours --> quote: "restoring deleted information about Polish killings of Ukrainian civilians, which is essential to understanding the context and trigger of this event"
as well as your edit and other edits to this article. Please note, none of the sources present in this article and no historian (I'm aware of) claim that "Polish killings of Ukrainian civilians was a trigger of the Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia". I mentioned you in my comment here
[18]. Please take note of that and be informed of it moving forward. Thank you. -
GizzyCatBella
🍁
23:03, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
Text:
"others, including Waldemar Rezmer, use the word "Zagłada", originally applied to the Final Solution, to describe them.[179][180]"
clarification of sources:
"others[179]," (who?)
"including Waldemar Rezmer, use the word "Zagłada"[180],"
"originally applied to the Final Solution[179],"
"to describe them.[179][180]"
First problem:
important part "originally applied to the Final Solution" would be supported only by [179]
would be because:
source: "previously reserved to define the Nazi extermination of the Jews"
text: "originally applied to the Final Solution"
Do I need to explain difference of these two statements?
second problem:
"including Waldemar Rezmer, use the word "Zagłada"[180]" -
Does he really? Because source clearly says "zagłada" (lowercase) not "Zagłada" (capitalised word). There is "Zagłada Korościatyna" in the source, but that's by Fr. Tadeusz Isakowicz-Zaleski not Rezmer (And you cannot prove without doubt that he (Fr) used capitalised word, not that was just lowercase word that was capitalised by fact that it's a name of something).
The thing about source [179] here: it uses "Zagłada" very clearly with capital. Not "zagłada" which constitutes a common word (fact that the Polish language does not use articles does not help).
Wiedzosław ( talk) 15:04, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
How can you deny that the Volhynia Massacre was a genocide if in you're very article you have the following statement:
The decision of ethnic cleansing of the area east of the Bug River was taken by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army early in 1943. In March 1943, the OUN(B) (specifically Mykola Lebed[162]) imposed a collective death sentence of all Poles living in the former east of the Second Polish Republic, and a few months later, local units of the UPA were instructed to complete the operation soon.
A collective death sentence of all Poles. This explicitly implies that the massacre was a genocide. Or are you going to delate this passage as well? It's scandalous what has been done with this article in the recent years. Tim Ocean ( talk) 22:41, 6 August 2021 (UTC)
Why is this page under "Wikipedia articles needing factual verification from July 2009"? I think it should be removed. -- Gustamons ( talk) 17:06, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The very last sentence of 'Eastern Galicia' section currently says The massacre is believed to be an act of retaliation for earlier alleged murders by Ukrainian Insurgent Army of 9 or 11 Poles in Pawłokoma and unspecified number of Poles killed by of the UPA in the neighboring villages. "by of the UPA" should be changed to something that makes sense, either remove "of" and just leave "by the UPA" or add some clarifying words, like "by forces of the UPA" or whatever is appropriate here. OlezhkaG ( talk) 16:41, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change "by of the UPA" to "by the UPA" in this sentence: The author of the book, IPN's historian Romuald Niedzielko, documented 1341 cases in which Ukrainian civilians helped their Polish neighbours, which caused 384 Ukrainians to be executed by of the UPA. OlezhkaG ( talk) 16:53, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change 'knowingly' to 'knowing' in the following sentence: Many of their victims who were perceived as Poles, even despite not knowingly the Polish language, were murdered by СКВ along with the others. OlezhkaG ( talk) 16:50, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please remove "of" before "Sarny" here, probably can remove the capital C from "Counties" as well: According to Ukrainian sources, in October 1943 the Volhynian delegation of the Polish government estimated the number of Polish casualties in of Sarny, Kostopol, Równe and Zdołbunów Counties to exceed 15,000. OlezhkaG ( talk) 17:01, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
I do not know how to do this, but I find it disturbing that the first picture I see in this article is one of dead people lying on the ground from a massacre. This picture should at least have a content warning, as it can be deeply alarming, uncomfortable, and unsettling to some people. Please consider either removing the picture altogether or fixing it so that it is not the first thing that is seen on the desktop version of this article. I believe it to be deeply disrespectful to both the dead, and to survivors of this event and the families of both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.219.147.105 ( talk) 05:12, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Hello Kashmiri, there is no need to include lots of exclamation marks in your responses. I don't know if you have family members who were killed in these tragic events, or if you even belong to the same ethnic groups, but if you do not then I see no reason why you should feel so strongly about a differing opinion here. Moreover, I did not shout at or offend you, so I am asking you to please treat me with the same respect. Thank you.
As for the article itself, it deals with more than just what happened in Volhynia - as the very name of the whole page says, it is tackling "Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia". This is more than just Volhynia; we are speaking here, again as the article itself clearly states in the first paragraph, of: "Volhynia, Eastern Galicia, parts of Polesia and Lublin region". Volhynia is only one part of this cruel and bloody puzzle.
Finally, if you scroll down to the "Estimates" section of the article you will see around a dozen sources saying that up to or more than 100,000 Poles were slain during this genocide or ethnic cleansing or whatever one calls it. The highest reliable numbers reach 200,000, though Norman Davies mentions "hundreds of thousands" which would mean anywhere from 200,000 to 999,999. However, personally I do not include Davies as a reliable source as, despite his not being Polish, he is ridiculously supportive of Polish nationalism and a raging conservative. -- Samotny Wędrowiec ( talk) 19:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Also, if I was being disingenuous then I could make the argument that the death toll is actually at well over 1 million, as the UPA and Ukrainian SS and Nazi-collaborating police killed over 800,000 Polish citizens of the Jewish faith and Soviet Jews in 1942 alone. However, this is not what I am adding to the article, as its scope is clearly the period of 1943-1945 and the focus is on gentile Poles. Besides, we have pages like The Holocaust in Ukraine to deal with this. -- Samotny Wędrowiec ( talk) 19:35, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
The Polish version of this page clearly has a lot more information than this one. I would actually consider the English version a stub. 82.46.71.77 ( talk) 14:49, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In this sentence, "where" should be "were":
Although Polish families, as the most numerous ethnic minority and in some areas majority, where the main target of the killings, victims also included Jews, Russians, Czechs, Georgians, and any Ukrainians who were part of Polish families or opposed the UPA and sabotaged the genocide by hiding Polish escapees Semuros ( talk) 12:28, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Norman Davies claims that during WW2 Ukrainian nationalists killed between 200,000 and 500,000 Poles. This figure is surprising and rather at odds with the numbers reported in this article. I copy and paste the relevant extract here below. Davies provides sources (quoted below) that I have not been able to verify. I leave it to more competent editors to assess whether and how these numbers should be cited in this article.
Norman Davies on the killing of Poles in Western Ukraine
|
---|
|
Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 21:26, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In "Classification as genocide - Polish view"," On 22 July 2016"should be " On 8 July 2016". Both resources were written on 8 July 2016. MINQI ( talk) 00:03, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Lede consists of 3 paragraphs, mid paragraph currently reads:
According to Timothy Snyder, the ethnic cleansing was a Ukrainian attempt to prevent the post-war Polish state from asserting its sovereignty over Ukrainian-majority areas that had been part of the prewar Polish state. Henryk Komański and Szczepan Siekierka write that the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B) and its military arm, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose goal as specified at the Second Conference of the OUN-B on 17–23 February 1943 (March 1943 in some sources) was to purge all non-Ukrainians from the future Ukrainian state. The massacres led to a conflict between Polish resistance and Ukrainian insurgency in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish Home Army in Volhynia responding to the Ukrainian attacks, on a much smaller scale.
My reading of it is as an attempt to contrasts two views of the massacres.
I don't see how these views contrast nor how there is anything contentious in either statements. If they don't contrast and are not contentious, I don't see the need to namecheck authors or present them as such.
The purpose of the lede is to summarize.
Can we simplify to .....=>
The ethnic cleansing was a Ukrainian attempt to prevent the post-war Polish state from asserting its sovereignty over Ukrainian-majority areas that had been part of the prewar Polish state. The massacres led to a conflict between Polish resistance and Ukrainian insurgency in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish Home Army in Volhynia responding to the Ukrainian attacks, on a much smaller scale.
(It is already stated clearly in paragraph 1 that UPA were perpetrators of these atrocities). -- Jabbi ( talk) 18:13, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
"Many Ukrainians perceived the 2016 resolution as an "anti-Ukrainian gesture" in the context of Vladimir Putin's attempts to use the Volhynia issue to divide Poland and Ukraine in the context of the Russian–Ukrainian war" Because this is just a feeling/opinion of a closer unknown person. The source was also not given Bukajsamesz ( talk) 22:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
The Sejm’s resolution was interpreted by many Ukrainian politicians and journalists as an “anti-Ukrainian gesture” [19] adopted in the particularly unfavourable moment of the military conflict in the Donbas region and conscious attempts of the Kremlin to use Volhynian topic to further complicate Polish-Ukrainian relations.The source even sources it. ScottishFinnishRadish ( talk) 15:07, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Remove sentence as Failed verification/WP:SYNTH: "Others, including Waldemar Rezmer, use the word "Zagłada", originally applied to the Final Solution, to describe the massacres." - cannot attribute to Rezmer in the sources - note clear use Zagłada in source for "originally applied" but (source) instead says "previously reserved" - . Also note that Rezmer is alive so this can be considered defamatory.
Please look into Archive(12): " "zagłada" and "Zagłada" - when Capitonym happens ".- for more Wiedzosław ( talk) 22:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
This article is literally appalling and misses out on every point literally. There are so much of disinformation here whitening out polish occupation of western Ukraine and hundreds of years of enslavement of Ukrainians by Polish invadors, no mentioning of the crimes and cleansing of Ukrainian people on Ukrainian lands occupied by Poland in 1918 by AK starting from 1941. Poland was nothing more than an invador who deprived Ukraine a chance to get independence in 1918. Polish people were not just a minority enhabiting our land but the occupants who exploited Ukraine. It doesn't mentionthe confirmed facts of Russians pretending to be Ukrainians conducting the acts of violence neither mentions the influence of nazi on this tragedy. it is a fully bias polish propaganda not worthy even one minute of attention. Let's start from the point 1 polish people were occupants on the territory of Ukraine same as Russians in Crimea now. You raising up this tragic history in a distorted way will bounce back on you, many countries have historical questions to Poland indeed. i request the authority of Wiki to investigate and protect the global intellectual community from the influx of polish propaganda on your website.
And lastly Wolyn tragedy Has never been acknowledged by any country as a genocide.and you claim that it is. 81.66.219.75 ( talk) 15:35, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
A major article section surveys estimates of 10,000 to 30,000 Ukrainian dead among victims, yet they are absent from the infobox, which treats the subject as a one-sided attack and not a conflict with mass killing of civilians by more than one side. Even if that were deemed acceptable, the text tells us that a very large number of Ukrainians were among the victims of UPA, but they are omitted.
There’s a disconnect, belying WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE “to summarize . . . key facts that appear in the article.” It’s like an infobox summarizing some other article, or restricted to only selected parts of this one. — Michael Z. 13:38, 21 May 2023 (UTC)