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The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga ( talk • mail) 06:48, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia → Murder of Poles and Jews in Volhynia and Galicia. Also discussed → Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Galicia. – Please read my detailed explanation from above. "Eastern Galicia" (as oppose to New Galicia) was an administrative unit of the Monarchy before World War One. – It is not a geographic region per se. The phrase "Volhynia and Galicia" as the epicentre of the massacres is supported by book authors Ivan Katchanovski et alii (above), Alexander Statiev, [1] Stephen Rapawy, [2] Timothy Snyder, [3], Ray Brandon & Wendy Lower, [4] Omer Bartov, [5] and numerous other historians. Poeticbent talk 14:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. — Amakuru ( talk) 20:07, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
UPA partisans murdered tens of thousands of Poles, most of them women and children ... Jews who had taken shelter with Polish families were also killed.Poeticbent talk 18:38, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Poeticbent talk 19:58, 1 September 2016 (UTC)In addition to conducting the ethnic cleansing of the Polish population, the UPA, together with the OUN-B and especially the SB of the OUN-B, murdered Jews. The majority of the Jews killed in 1943 and 1944 by the Ukrainian nationalists had escaped from the ghettos in order to avoid the transports to Bełżec or being shot in front of mass graves. They hid in bunkers, or camps in the woods, or in peasant houses. Some of these Jews were killed as the UPA murdered Poles and destroyed their houses.[195] The survivors of these attacks frequently described the perpetrators as "Banderites" and considered them to be Ukrainian nationalists.(page 272)
Adam Easton (a guy who hates Poland because he had hoped to become a correspondent in Honolulu instead of Warsaw) wrote in 2013 this manipulative article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23267472 It states that UPA killed 40 000 Poles and then the Poles "(...) retaliated and the conflict killed up to 100,000 people in total." It reads as if Ukrainians were the main victims in Volyn massacre. The reason I mention this is that maybe the wikiarticle should include a paragraph on notable examples of bad reporting on the issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.29.230.57 ( talk • contribs) 18:39, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Background section starts with sentence that Galicia and Volhynia were formed as disputed territories... This is based on whose definition?? And how exactly territories are formed in order to exist as "disputed territories"? Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 21:22, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
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In the beginning of the article, the phrase "the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose goal as specified at the Second Conference of the OUN-B on 17–23 February 1943 (or March 1943 according to other sources) was to purge all non-Ukrainians from the future Ukrainian state.[10]" refers to the book by Henryk Komański and Szczepan Siekierka, Ludobójstwo dokonane przez nacjonalistów ukraińskich na Polakach w województwie tarnopolskim w latach 1939–1946 (2006), at pg. 203.
Page 203 of Ref. [10] says nothing about the Second Conference of the OUN-B. This should be corrected or removed, if correction is impossible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.57.82.134 ( talk) 16:01, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
"The Institute of National Remembrance estimates that between 74,000 and 104,000 Poles were killed" this number is long obsolete. Most likely, 100,000 Poles were killed in Volhynia, Eastern Galicia, Polesie, and the Lublin region. This number is supported by Grzegorz Motyka and IPN. http://volhyniamassacre.eu/zw2/history/179,The-Effects-of-the-Volhynian-Massacres.html
"Some extreme assessments of the number of Polish people as high as 300,000" This number is exaggerated. This number is based on an old source from 1990. In my opinion, this should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mat0018 ( talk • contribs) 15:37, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Some Ukrainians were murdered by Ukrainian nationalist because they helped Poles or refused to kill their Polish family memebers. Sluzhba Bezpeky is sometimes accused. Xx236 ( talk) 10:28, 10 July 2018 (UTC) According to he book Genocide and Rescue in Wołyń: Recollections of the Ukrainian Nationalist Ethnic Cleansing Campaign Against the Poles During World War II there exists a list of 9,018 of names. Xx236 ( talk) 10:33, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
What did the Uniate clergy do? Xx236 ( talk) 10:37, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
"In April they moved to the area of Krzemieniec, Rivne, Dubno and Lutsk.[73] Between late March and early April 1943, killing approximately 7,000 unarmed men, women, and children in its first days.[74]"
I not understand!-- Adûnâi ( talk) 16:58, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
History is History and cannot be changed. No matter how much you would want to
For years russian accounts were operating online to demonize both Ukraine and Poland. Articles were severely edited against Ukraine.
It's however important to keep in mind - Polish-Ukraine peace pact - Treaty of Warsaw (1920) when two brother countries stood together
After that, Russia got involved - invaded Ukraine and Belarus. And Poland broke the agreement (Treaty of Warsaw) by signing Peace of Riga.
So Poland disregarded a 1920 ToW act and occupied Ukrainan territory despite promise not to, in favor of Russia. Poland didnt keep promise
What had been Poles doing in occupied part of Ukraine? Sure - you may not like to hear that as it will not be different from Volhynia case.
We both made mistakes. We must make sure not to make them again. As the only beneficiary of our bad relationships is now Russia.
Poland and Ukraine must stand together. 178.92.184.117 ( talk) 17:23, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
Re: [11]. I agree this may be a controversial label, but I don't think should remove mentions that some scholars call it such from the article entirely. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Actions taken in Polish-occupied parts of Ukraine Most sources used in this article are not reliable — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.94.86.34 ( talk) 01:13, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
The massacre actually did happened in IIWW. Then, German-occupied parts of Poland (Wołyń). Facts first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.246.67.159 ( talk) 23:42, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Ping User:Faustian, could you review this? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:15, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Which article describes the murder of Volhynian Jews mentioned but not hyperlinked from this article? - - GI
If it is inadmissible to use non-peer reviewed sources to cover contemporary memory of the events, then you will have to axe most of the info about the Polish government's commemoration as well, since that is cited to news articles. ( t · c) buidhe 10:23, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
The article states: [12]
In other words, the “anti-Polish operation” of the UPA was based on the nationalist logic to claim rights to land on the basis of ethnic purity and additionally inspired by the anti-Polish sentiments and experience of discriminatory politics of the interwar Polish state where people of Ukrainian origin had reasons to feel themselves “second-class citizens”.[4]
The note states:
[4] Inter-war Poland failed to fulfill its international promise to open the Ukrainian University in L`viv, tended to cut down Ukrainian language schools, in late 1930s even destroyed more than one hundred Orthodox churches. See more in Ryszard Torzecki, Kwestia ukraińska w Polsce w latach 1923–1929 (Kraków, 1989); Jerzy Tomaszewski, Ojczyzna nie tylko Polaków: Mniejszości narodowe w Polsce w latach 1918–1939 (Warszawa, 1985); Mirosława Papierzyńska-Turek, Sprawa ukraińska w Drugiej Rzeczypospolitej, 1922–1926 (Kraków, 1979).
Seems to me that this sentence doesn't make sense unless he meant to write "anti-Ukrainian sentiments". It's also doubtful that there was much anti-Polish prejudice in interwar Poland, a country run by Poles on rather ethnocentric lines.
This is the only source cited so far to support anti-Polish prejudice as a cause of this event. As opposed to various peer-reviewed articles per above which don't mention it at all. At minimum, this is awfully shaky ground to pin the #1 cause according to Wikipedia. ( t · c) buidhe 19:11, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
User:Buidhe keeps trying to remove/shame tag the statement that these killings were motivated by anti Polish ethnic prejudice [13]
First, they ask for a source in info box, even though the claim is already sourced in the text
Then, they claim that a source that they themselves added is not sufficient. This is at best moving goal posts.
Then they claim that the source, which, again, they themselves added, “made an error”. Apparently only in this part of the article because they’re happy to use other parts of the article. . They then make a strange claim about “Snyder”. I presume this means the historian Timothy Snyder. Timothy Snyder is not mentioned on this page anywhere. I have no idea what specific article or work by Snyder Buidhe is referring to. You can’t revert and make edits on the basis of sources you haven’t bothered to provide.
From the context it seems like Buidhe has in mind some source - which they haven’t provided - which doesn’t mention anti Polish prejudice explicitly and instead goes into detail on other aspects of the killing. Ok. But “source doesn’t mention X” is not the same as “source says it’s not X”. I can’t comment further on this since Buidhe hasn’t even bothered to provide the source in question. Volunteer Marek 19:26, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
By saying that the reason was "anti Polish ethnic prejudice", we implicitly assume some nations are good (devoid of ethnic prejudices), and some nations are bad. That is not what we are allowed to do here. Obviously, "anti Polish ethnic prejudice" could not be an ultimate reason (if VM doesn't want to say Ukrainians are bad guys), it by itself was a consequence of past historical events. Without diving too deeply into XVI-XVIII centuries history, a more immediate reason is obvious: the ultranationalistic policy of the Second Polish republic, which suppressed all ethnic groups except ethnic Poles was quite sufficient to provoke strong anti-Polish prejudice in non-Poles.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 23:15, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
::The immediate cause was
Pacification of Ukrainians in Eastern Galicia,
Repression of Ukrainians in Volhynia in Polish 1935-39 re-vindication campaign. Polish authorities destroyed Ukrainian churches, punitively punished the Ukrainian populace, and colonized Volhynia with ethnic Polish military settlers who took land from Ukrainians by force.--
Alpha Pasha (
talk)
04:51, 23 December 2020 (UTC) (blocked sockpuppet)
::::Snyder and other sources see the Ukrainian action as a reaction to the preceding ethnic cleansing by the Polish government. The Polish government ethnically cleansed surviving Ukrainians after the war also.--
Alpha Pasha (
talk)
05:39, 23 December 2020 (UTC)(blocked sockpuppet)
With that distraction out of the way and with that particular sock back in the drawer (for now), let me say this: I take a dim view of the edit warring and the communicating via edit summaries, Volunteer Marek and Buidhe. VM, for you, especially, this is not a good look so soon after the Committee has rescinded your ban. I realize that you are not a strong believer in WP:ONUS and the general supremacy of longstanding text in the course of content disputes (no idea which of you it favours here, btw), but there's not really a way around it. I could always just Consensus required the shit out of these pages, so you all may as well go with the flow. El_C 07:03, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
history of Jews and antisemitism in Poland during World War II (1933–45), including the Holocaust in Poland.But the subject only seems to mention Jews in passing — there isn't even a section devoted to them in the article.
A big problem with the theory that anti-Polish sentiment specifically is the main cause of the events, other minority groups such as Jews and Volhynian Czechs were also killed by OUN. [1] (McBride does not refer to "anti-Polish sentiment" or any variation in his paper). He also states, " Compelled by the fascist movements of central Europe, these leaders envisioned not a democratic Ukraine that would include longstanding Jewish, Polish, and German historical minorities, but an ethnically homogenous Ukraine instead. OUN theoreticians like Mykola Stsibors΄kyi prophesized in 1939 that “foreign parasitic growth” in the Ukrainian nation such as the “large part of the Russian, Polish, and other immigrants” were to be killed early in the forthcoming national revolution... Although the OUN-B had envisioned the removal of Poles from western Ukraine as necessary for creating a Ukrainian state for over a decade, it was the following circumstances in Volhynia in 1943 that enabled it to come to fruition. [mentions three events, none of which have anything to do with anti-Polish sentiment]."
Snyder's paper "The Causes of Ukrainian-Polish Ethnic Cleansing 1943", states:
The OUN-B, true as ever to its radicalism, interpreted the party programme in a more decisive fashion than the OUN-M, and followed a more ruthless strategy. It meant to pre-empt the return of Polish statehood by expelling the Poles from west Ukraine before the war was over. A guideline for OUN-B task forces composed just before the German invasion of the Soviet Union, in May 1941, indicates the desirability of the removal of 'Poles in the western Ukrainian regions, who have not aban- doned their dreams of rebuilding a Greater Poland at the expense of Ukrainian lands'.44 By 1941, having experienced Soviet occupation, the OUN-B no longer saw Poles as the main enemy: but they were still to be removed, as potential allies of Soviet power. The OUN-B was also more willing than the OUN-M to kill Ukrainians in pursuit of its goals, and by this means and others it had monopolized political life in Volhynia by 1943... If we ask why ethnic cleansing took place in western Ukraine rather than in western Belarus, the answer must be pre-war nationalism. Ukrainian nationalists believed that Poles, as a national group, were a hindrance to the project of building a Ukrainian state. The Poles were defined not as a racial but as a political collectivity, expected to behave according to a predictably anti-Ukrainian political logic, therefore to be removed to achieve the political end of Ukrainian statehood. [2]
During a presentation on the ethnic cleansing in Volhynia, "Snyder ended by saying that “ethnic cleansing” is a matter of political history rather than ancient hatreds, and that all factors must be addressed when examining how it occurs." [18]
John-Paul Himka states, "The radical nationalism of the OUN during wartime led its members to participation in the Holocaust and to ethnic cleansing of the Polish population." [19]
I've cited sources that cite Ukrainian nationalism, especially the desire to incorporate disputed territories into a future, homogenous Ukrainian state, as the main cause of ethnic cleansing. It's up to you to provide equally authoritative sources that say something else is the main cause. ( t · c) buidhe 11:32, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
Maybe, it may be helpful to check now other articles about mass killing describe motives? Actually, "motive" and "cause" are different terms, the former more related the perpetrator's perception, whereas the latter describes the actual driving force. -- Paul Siebert ( talk) 19:03, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
Buidhe, look. You commented above ---> quote: "There's no general requirement for any article or type of article to have or not have an infobox. It is usually decided on each talk page by local consensus." [20] Then you go into the article and remove info-box without reaching the consensus. [21] Why? Why you did that despite recognizing yourself that "It is usually decided on each talk page by local consensus"?? I'm not getting that... - GizzyCatBella 🍁 00:24, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Okay Buidhe, I see no consensus so far to remove the info-box so let’s move to another thing.... in the same diff in which you removed that box [23] at the very bottom, you added ---> quote "wider conflict between Polish and Ukrainian forces in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish Home Army in Volhynia, as well as Poles in German units and Soviet partisans, responding to the Ukrainian attacks."
− | The massacres led to a wider conflict between Polish and Ukrainian forces in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish [[27th Home Army Infantry Division (Poland)|Home Army]] in | + | The massacres led to a wider conflict between Polish and Ukrainian forces in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish [[27th Home Army Infantry Division (Poland)|Home Army]] in Volhynia, as well as Poles in German units and Soviet partisans, responding to the Ukrainian attacks. |
You provided these two references to back up the text you inserted claiming that there were "Poles in German units" fighting the Ukrainians.... ----> this one [24] and this one [25] I carefully checked these two references. There is nothing about "Poles in German units" fighting the Ukrainians that I can see. Could you explain that? Where "Poles in German units" came from?? Thank you. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 02:42, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
References
OUN-UPA leaders often used the term "likvidovuvaty" (likvidirovat΄ in Russian) or "liquidate" as a euphemism for murder, not only for the murder of Poles, but also other victims, including Jews, Czechs, and Ukrainians.
( t · c) buidhe 12:40, 24 December 2020 (UTC)Matters were much worse than this. The Germans recruited about 1,200 fresh Polish policemen in April 1943 to replace the Ukrainian deserters. Polish motives were local and personal: to defend themselves or take revenge.85 Once they joined, Poles could not easily change their mind: sixty who tried to resign on 10 April 1943 were summarily shot. Yet regardless of individual motivations, this response to UPA attacks accelerated a fateful escalation. Poles now aided German policemen as they pacified Ukrainian villages. (p.233)
It's splitting hairs. Is any nationalism really that easy to separate from ethnocentric views about being superior than one's neigbhours (i.e. anti-neighbour views)? The only question is to what degree a given country's nationalism focuses on antagonism towards particular neighbours, which is related to how bad their history was (often related to how much one had to struggle against invasions and like). Polish nationalism, for example, seems much more anti-German and anti-Russian than anti-Czech, anti-Baltic or anti-Scandinavian (with anti-Ukranian attitude being somewhere in the middle, mostly stoked as a response to anti-Polish sentiments in Ukraine). Ukrainian nationalism is very clearly heavily anti-Polish (and I'd think anti-Russian) since Ukrainian struggle for independence was primarily against those two neighbours (colonial masters...). So trying to separate Ukrainian nationalism from anti-Polish sentiment is mostly futile, it's the chicken and an egg problem. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:00, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Ok, now we can try to work out how to salvage this sentence "The massacres led to a wider conflict between Polish and Ukrainian forces in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish Home Army in Volhynia, as well as Poles in German units and Soviet partisans, responding to the Ukrainian attacks" (I hope the yellow highlighting is ok here?). I see several problems with the disputed part (highlighted). Setting aside whether it is a correct summary of the source (I need to reread it carefully, and I am a bit busy right now), few comments come to mind. First, the agency should not be equivalent for Polish Home Army and Poles in German units. Home Army was its own master, more or less, whereas I assume Poles in German units went where the Germans told them too. Also, did Soviet partisans really "respond" to Ukrainian attacks? It might be better not to discuss the collaboratoring auxiliaries and the Soviets in the lead, or at least not in this sentence, as I think it muddles the waters more than it helps. Lastly - a question for User:Buidhe. You mentioned and quoted Ukrainian participation in the German forces here, but in the article, you only add (to the lead) information about Polish participation in the German forces. Considering the context (massacres of Poles), isn't Ukrainian collaboration a more relevant issue to discuss in the lead than Polish? As far as I know, Polish collaboration with the Nazis was much less of a relevant factor in this conflict than Ukrainian (and both were relatively minor compared to the fact that both sides were effectively set up one another by the Germans, per divide and conquer logic - and I'd expect the Soviets to do the same, rather than to side with Poles, as the problematic sentence implied). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:05, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
Buidhe, slow down.
First thing’s first. What is “Snyder 2003a”. Can you please at least provide a proper title and journal source? Volunteer Marek 04:15, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
Second, can you please stop making dramatic and obviously controversial changes to the article without first bringing it up on the talk page? Several editors have expressed concerns with both the content of your edits and how you source them, not to mention the unilateral way in which you make them. Volunteer Marek 04:16, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
If “Snyder 2003a” is suppose to refer to the article in Past and Present then
1) you need to provide that information rather than have other editors guessing
2) more importantly your text is not at all what the source says! Snyder DOES NOT say the “massacres resulted from escalating tensions between Polish and Ukrainian forces over the course of 1943.” That would in fact be absurd since the massacres started in February of 1943! In fact the whole point of Snyder’s article is that the Polish reprisals were a RESPONSE to the massacres, not their cause, although OUN’s propaganda tried to turn that around. Your edit effectively repeats OUN propaganda even though The Who,e point of the article is that it was false.
I’m sorry but I’m reverting this as it, again, grossly misrepresents the source. Volunteer Marek 04:27, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help) (nowiki: {{cite journal |last1=Snyder |first1=Timothy |title=The Causes of Ukrainian-Polish Ethnic Cleansing 1943 |journal=Past & Present |date=2003 |issue=179 |pages=197–234 |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/3600827 |issn=0031-2746 ||ref={{sfnref|Snyder2003a}}}}). Click it and see. This is basic Wikipedia referencing, I shouldn't have to explain it to you.References
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( non-admin closure) Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga ( talk • mail) 06:48, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia → Murder of Poles and Jews in Volhynia and Galicia. Also discussed → Massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Galicia. – Please read my detailed explanation from above. "Eastern Galicia" (as oppose to New Galicia) was an administrative unit of the Monarchy before World War One. – It is not a geographic region per se. The phrase "Volhynia and Galicia" as the epicentre of the massacres is supported by book authors Ivan Katchanovski et alii (above), Alexander Statiev, [1] Stephen Rapawy, [2] Timothy Snyder, [3], Ray Brandon & Wendy Lower, [4] Omer Bartov, [5] and numerous other historians. Poeticbent talk 14:28, 24 August 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. — Amakuru ( talk) 20:07, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
UPA partisans murdered tens of thousands of Poles, most of them women and children ... Jews who had taken shelter with Polish families were also killed.Poeticbent talk 18:38, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
Poeticbent talk 19:58, 1 September 2016 (UTC)In addition to conducting the ethnic cleansing of the Polish population, the UPA, together with the OUN-B and especially the SB of the OUN-B, murdered Jews. The majority of the Jews killed in 1943 and 1944 by the Ukrainian nationalists had escaped from the ghettos in order to avoid the transports to Bełżec or being shot in front of mass graves. They hid in bunkers, or camps in the woods, or in peasant houses. Some of these Jews were killed as the UPA murdered Poles and destroyed their houses.[195] The survivors of these attacks frequently described the perpetrators as "Banderites" and considered them to be Ukrainian nationalists.(page 272)
Adam Easton (a guy who hates Poland because he had hoped to become a correspondent in Honolulu instead of Warsaw) wrote in 2013 this manipulative article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-23267472 It states that UPA killed 40 000 Poles and then the Poles "(...) retaliated and the conflict killed up to 100,000 people in total." It reads as if Ukrainians were the main victims in Volyn massacre. The reason I mention this is that maybe the wikiarticle should include a paragraph on notable examples of bad reporting on the issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.29.230.57 ( talk • contribs) 18:39, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
Background section starts with sentence that Galicia and Volhynia were formed as disputed territories... This is based on whose definition?? And how exactly territories are formed in order to exist as "disputed territories"? Aleksandr Grigoryev ( talk) 21:22, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
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In the beginning of the article, the phrase "the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, whose goal as specified at the Second Conference of the OUN-B on 17–23 February 1943 (or March 1943 according to other sources) was to purge all non-Ukrainians from the future Ukrainian state.[10]" refers to the book by Henryk Komański and Szczepan Siekierka, Ludobójstwo dokonane przez nacjonalistów ukraińskich na Polakach w województwie tarnopolskim w latach 1939–1946 (2006), at pg. 203.
Page 203 of Ref. [10] says nothing about the Second Conference of the OUN-B. This should be corrected or removed, if correction is impossible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.57.82.134 ( talk) 16:01, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
"The Institute of National Remembrance estimates that between 74,000 and 104,000 Poles were killed" this number is long obsolete. Most likely, 100,000 Poles were killed in Volhynia, Eastern Galicia, Polesie, and the Lublin region. This number is supported by Grzegorz Motyka and IPN. http://volhyniamassacre.eu/zw2/history/179,The-Effects-of-the-Volhynian-Massacres.html
"Some extreme assessments of the number of Polish people as high as 300,000" This number is exaggerated. This number is based on an old source from 1990. In my opinion, this should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mat0018 ( talk • contribs) 15:37, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Some Ukrainians were murdered by Ukrainian nationalist because they helped Poles or refused to kill their Polish family memebers. Sluzhba Bezpeky is sometimes accused. Xx236 ( talk) 10:28, 10 July 2018 (UTC) According to he book Genocide and Rescue in Wołyń: Recollections of the Ukrainian Nationalist Ethnic Cleansing Campaign Against the Poles During World War II there exists a list of 9,018 of names. Xx236 ( talk) 10:33, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
What did the Uniate clergy do? Xx236 ( talk) 10:37, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
"In April they moved to the area of Krzemieniec, Rivne, Dubno and Lutsk.[73] Between late March and early April 1943, killing approximately 7,000 unarmed men, women, and children in its first days.[74]"
I not understand!-- Adûnâi ( talk) 16:58, 18 August 2018 (UTC)
History is History and cannot be changed. No matter how much you would want to
For years russian accounts were operating online to demonize both Ukraine and Poland. Articles were severely edited against Ukraine.
It's however important to keep in mind - Polish-Ukraine peace pact - Treaty of Warsaw (1920) when two brother countries stood together
After that, Russia got involved - invaded Ukraine and Belarus. And Poland broke the agreement (Treaty of Warsaw) by signing Peace of Riga.
So Poland disregarded a 1920 ToW act and occupied Ukrainan territory despite promise not to, in favor of Russia. Poland didnt keep promise
What had been Poles doing in occupied part of Ukraine? Sure - you may not like to hear that as it will not be different from Volhynia case.
We both made mistakes. We must make sure not to make them again. As the only beneficiary of our bad relationships is now Russia.
Poland and Ukraine must stand together. 178.92.184.117 ( talk) 17:23, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
Re: [11]. I agree this may be a controversial label, but I don't think should remove mentions that some scholars call it such from the article entirely. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Actions taken in Polish-occupied parts of Ukraine Most sources used in this article are not reliable — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.94.86.34 ( talk) 01:13, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
The massacre actually did happened in IIWW. Then, German-occupied parts of Poland (Wołyń). Facts first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.246.67.159 ( talk) 23:42, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Ping User:Faustian, could you review this? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:15, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Which article describes the murder of Volhynian Jews mentioned but not hyperlinked from this article? - - GI
If it is inadmissible to use non-peer reviewed sources to cover contemporary memory of the events, then you will have to axe most of the info about the Polish government's commemoration as well, since that is cited to news articles. ( t · c) buidhe 10:23, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
The article states: [12]
In other words, the “anti-Polish operation” of the UPA was based on the nationalist logic to claim rights to land on the basis of ethnic purity and additionally inspired by the anti-Polish sentiments and experience of discriminatory politics of the interwar Polish state where people of Ukrainian origin had reasons to feel themselves “second-class citizens”.[4]
The note states:
[4] Inter-war Poland failed to fulfill its international promise to open the Ukrainian University in L`viv, tended to cut down Ukrainian language schools, in late 1930s even destroyed more than one hundred Orthodox churches. See more in Ryszard Torzecki, Kwestia ukraińska w Polsce w latach 1923–1929 (Kraków, 1989); Jerzy Tomaszewski, Ojczyzna nie tylko Polaków: Mniejszości narodowe w Polsce w latach 1918–1939 (Warszawa, 1985); Mirosława Papierzyńska-Turek, Sprawa ukraińska w Drugiej Rzeczypospolitej, 1922–1926 (Kraków, 1979).
Seems to me that this sentence doesn't make sense unless he meant to write "anti-Ukrainian sentiments". It's also doubtful that there was much anti-Polish prejudice in interwar Poland, a country run by Poles on rather ethnocentric lines.
This is the only source cited so far to support anti-Polish prejudice as a cause of this event. As opposed to various peer-reviewed articles per above which don't mention it at all. At minimum, this is awfully shaky ground to pin the #1 cause according to Wikipedia. ( t · c) buidhe 19:11, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
User:Buidhe keeps trying to remove/shame tag the statement that these killings were motivated by anti Polish ethnic prejudice [13]
First, they ask for a source in info box, even though the claim is already sourced in the text
Then, they claim that a source that they themselves added is not sufficient. This is at best moving goal posts.
Then they claim that the source, which, again, they themselves added, “made an error”. Apparently only in this part of the article because they’re happy to use other parts of the article. . They then make a strange claim about “Snyder”. I presume this means the historian Timothy Snyder. Timothy Snyder is not mentioned on this page anywhere. I have no idea what specific article or work by Snyder Buidhe is referring to. You can’t revert and make edits on the basis of sources you haven’t bothered to provide.
From the context it seems like Buidhe has in mind some source - which they haven’t provided - which doesn’t mention anti Polish prejudice explicitly and instead goes into detail on other aspects of the killing. Ok. But “source doesn’t mention X” is not the same as “source says it’s not X”. I can’t comment further on this since Buidhe hasn’t even bothered to provide the source in question. Volunteer Marek 19:26, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
By saying that the reason was "anti Polish ethnic prejudice", we implicitly assume some nations are good (devoid of ethnic prejudices), and some nations are bad. That is not what we are allowed to do here. Obviously, "anti Polish ethnic prejudice" could not be an ultimate reason (if VM doesn't want to say Ukrainians are bad guys), it by itself was a consequence of past historical events. Without diving too deeply into XVI-XVIII centuries history, a more immediate reason is obvious: the ultranationalistic policy of the Second Polish republic, which suppressed all ethnic groups except ethnic Poles was quite sufficient to provoke strong anti-Polish prejudice in non-Poles.-- Paul Siebert ( talk) 23:15, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
::The immediate cause was
Pacification of Ukrainians in Eastern Galicia,
Repression of Ukrainians in Volhynia in Polish 1935-39 re-vindication campaign. Polish authorities destroyed Ukrainian churches, punitively punished the Ukrainian populace, and colonized Volhynia with ethnic Polish military settlers who took land from Ukrainians by force.--
Alpha Pasha (
talk)
04:51, 23 December 2020 (UTC) (blocked sockpuppet)
::::Snyder and other sources see the Ukrainian action as a reaction to the preceding ethnic cleansing by the Polish government. The Polish government ethnically cleansed surviving Ukrainians after the war also.--
Alpha Pasha (
talk)
05:39, 23 December 2020 (UTC)(blocked sockpuppet)
With that distraction out of the way and with that particular sock back in the drawer (for now), let me say this: I take a dim view of the edit warring and the communicating via edit summaries, Volunteer Marek and Buidhe. VM, for you, especially, this is not a good look so soon after the Committee has rescinded your ban. I realize that you are not a strong believer in WP:ONUS and the general supremacy of longstanding text in the course of content disputes (no idea which of you it favours here, btw), but there's not really a way around it. I could always just Consensus required the shit out of these pages, so you all may as well go with the flow. El_C 07:03, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
history of Jews and antisemitism in Poland during World War II (1933–45), including the Holocaust in Poland.But the subject only seems to mention Jews in passing — there isn't even a section devoted to them in the article.
A big problem with the theory that anti-Polish sentiment specifically is the main cause of the events, other minority groups such as Jews and Volhynian Czechs were also killed by OUN. [1] (McBride does not refer to "anti-Polish sentiment" or any variation in his paper). He also states, " Compelled by the fascist movements of central Europe, these leaders envisioned not a democratic Ukraine that would include longstanding Jewish, Polish, and German historical minorities, but an ethnically homogenous Ukraine instead. OUN theoreticians like Mykola Stsibors΄kyi prophesized in 1939 that “foreign parasitic growth” in the Ukrainian nation such as the “large part of the Russian, Polish, and other immigrants” were to be killed early in the forthcoming national revolution... Although the OUN-B had envisioned the removal of Poles from western Ukraine as necessary for creating a Ukrainian state for over a decade, it was the following circumstances in Volhynia in 1943 that enabled it to come to fruition. [mentions three events, none of which have anything to do with anti-Polish sentiment]."
Snyder's paper "The Causes of Ukrainian-Polish Ethnic Cleansing 1943", states:
The OUN-B, true as ever to its radicalism, interpreted the party programme in a more decisive fashion than the OUN-M, and followed a more ruthless strategy. It meant to pre-empt the return of Polish statehood by expelling the Poles from west Ukraine before the war was over. A guideline for OUN-B task forces composed just before the German invasion of the Soviet Union, in May 1941, indicates the desirability of the removal of 'Poles in the western Ukrainian regions, who have not aban- doned their dreams of rebuilding a Greater Poland at the expense of Ukrainian lands'.44 By 1941, having experienced Soviet occupation, the OUN-B no longer saw Poles as the main enemy: but they were still to be removed, as potential allies of Soviet power. The OUN-B was also more willing than the OUN-M to kill Ukrainians in pursuit of its goals, and by this means and others it had monopolized political life in Volhynia by 1943... If we ask why ethnic cleansing took place in western Ukraine rather than in western Belarus, the answer must be pre-war nationalism. Ukrainian nationalists believed that Poles, as a national group, were a hindrance to the project of building a Ukrainian state. The Poles were defined not as a racial but as a political collectivity, expected to behave according to a predictably anti-Ukrainian political logic, therefore to be removed to achieve the political end of Ukrainian statehood. [2]
During a presentation on the ethnic cleansing in Volhynia, "Snyder ended by saying that “ethnic cleansing” is a matter of political history rather than ancient hatreds, and that all factors must be addressed when examining how it occurs." [18]
John-Paul Himka states, "The radical nationalism of the OUN during wartime led its members to participation in the Holocaust and to ethnic cleansing of the Polish population." [19]
I've cited sources that cite Ukrainian nationalism, especially the desire to incorporate disputed territories into a future, homogenous Ukrainian state, as the main cause of ethnic cleansing. It's up to you to provide equally authoritative sources that say something else is the main cause. ( t · c) buidhe 11:32, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
Maybe, it may be helpful to check now other articles about mass killing describe motives? Actually, "motive" and "cause" are different terms, the former more related the perpetrator's perception, whereas the latter describes the actual driving force. -- Paul Siebert ( talk) 19:03, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
Buidhe, look. You commented above ---> quote: "There's no general requirement for any article or type of article to have or not have an infobox. It is usually decided on each talk page by local consensus." [20] Then you go into the article and remove info-box without reaching the consensus. [21] Why? Why you did that despite recognizing yourself that "It is usually decided on each talk page by local consensus"?? I'm not getting that... - GizzyCatBella 🍁 00:24, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Okay Buidhe, I see no consensus so far to remove the info-box so let’s move to another thing.... in the same diff in which you removed that box [23] at the very bottom, you added ---> quote "wider conflict between Polish and Ukrainian forces in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish Home Army in Volhynia, as well as Poles in German units and Soviet partisans, responding to the Ukrainian attacks."
− | The massacres led to a wider conflict between Polish and Ukrainian forces in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish [[27th Home Army Infantry Division (Poland)|Home Army]] in | + | The massacres led to a wider conflict between Polish and Ukrainian forces in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish [[27th Home Army Infantry Division (Poland)|Home Army]] in Volhynia, as well as Poles in German units and Soviet partisans, responding to the Ukrainian attacks. |
You provided these two references to back up the text you inserted claiming that there were "Poles in German units" fighting the Ukrainians.... ----> this one [24] and this one [25] I carefully checked these two references. There is nothing about "Poles in German units" fighting the Ukrainians that I can see. Could you explain that? Where "Poles in German units" came from?? Thank you. - GizzyCatBella 🍁 02:42, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
References
OUN-UPA leaders often used the term "likvidovuvaty" (likvidirovat΄ in Russian) or "liquidate" as a euphemism for murder, not only for the murder of Poles, but also other victims, including Jews, Czechs, and Ukrainians.
( t · c) buidhe 12:40, 24 December 2020 (UTC)Matters were much worse than this. The Germans recruited about 1,200 fresh Polish policemen in April 1943 to replace the Ukrainian deserters. Polish motives were local and personal: to defend themselves or take revenge.85 Once they joined, Poles could not easily change their mind: sixty who tried to resign on 10 April 1943 were summarily shot. Yet regardless of individual motivations, this response to UPA attacks accelerated a fateful escalation. Poles now aided German policemen as they pacified Ukrainian villages. (p.233)
It's splitting hairs. Is any nationalism really that easy to separate from ethnocentric views about being superior than one's neigbhours (i.e. anti-neighbour views)? The only question is to what degree a given country's nationalism focuses on antagonism towards particular neighbours, which is related to how bad their history was (often related to how much one had to struggle against invasions and like). Polish nationalism, for example, seems much more anti-German and anti-Russian than anti-Czech, anti-Baltic or anti-Scandinavian (with anti-Ukranian attitude being somewhere in the middle, mostly stoked as a response to anti-Polish sentiments in Ukraine). Ukrainian nationalism is very clearly heavily anti-Polish (and I'd think anti-Russian) since Ukrainian struggle for independence was primarily against those two neighbours (colonial masters...). So trying to separate Ukrainian nationalism from anti-Polish sentiment is mostly futile, it's the chicken and an egg problem. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:00, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
Ok, now we can try to work out how to salvage this sentence "The massacres led to a wider conflict between Polish and Ukrainian forces in the German-occupied territories, with the Polish Home Army in Volhynia, as well as Poles in German units and Soviet partisans, responding to the Ukrainian attacks" (I hope the yellow highlighting is ok here?). I see several problems with the disputed part (highlighted). Setting aside whether it is a correct summary of the source (I need to reread it carefully, and I am a bit busy right now), few comments come to mind. First, the agency should not be equivalent for Polish Home Army and Poles in German units. Home Army was its own master, more or less, whereas I assume Poles in German units went where the Germans told them too. Also, did Soviet partisans really "respond" to Ukrainian attacks? It might be better not to discuss the collaboratoring auxiliaries and the Soviets in the lead, or at least not in this sentence, as I think it muddles the waters more than it helps. Lastly - a question for User:Buidhe. You mentioned and quoted Ukrainian participation in the German forces here, but in the article, you only add (to the lead) information about Polish participation in the German forces. Considering the context (massacres of Poles), isn't Ukrainian collaboration a more relevant issue to discuss in the lead than Polish? As far as I know, Polish collaboration with the Nazis was much less of a relevant factor in this conflict than Ukrainian (and both were relatively minor compared to the fact that both sides were effectively set up one another by the Germans, per divide and conquer logic - and I'd expect the Soviets to do the same, rather than to side with Poles, as the problematic sentence implied). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:05, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
Buidhe, slow down.
First thing’s first. What is “Snyder 2003a”. Can you please at least provide a proper title and journal source? Volunteer Marek 04:15, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
Second, can you please stop making dramatic and obviously controversial changes to the article without first bringing it up on the talk page? Several editors have expressed concerns with both the content of your edits and how you source them, not to mention the unilateral way in which you make them. Volunteer Marek 04:16, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
If “Snyder 2003a” is suppose to refer to the article in Past and Present then
1) you need to provide that information rather than have other editors guessing
2) more importantly your text is not at all what the source says! Snyder DOES NOT say the “massacres resulted from escalating tensions between Polish and Ukrainian forces over the course of 1943.” That would in fact be absurd since the massacres started in February of 1943! In fact the whole point of Snyder’s article is that the Polish reprisals were a RESPONSE to the massacres, not their cause, although OUN’s propaganda tried to turn that around. Your edit effectively repeats OUN propaganda even though The Who,e point of the article is that it was false.
I’m sorry but I’m reverting this as it, again, grossly misrepresents the source. Volunteer Marek 04:27, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
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cite journal}}
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help) (nowiki: {{cite journal |last1=Snyder |first1=Timothy |title=The Causes of Ukrainian-Polish Ethnic Cleansing 1943 |journal=Past & Present |date=2003 |issue=179 |pages=197–234 |url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/3600827 |issn=0031-2746 ||ref={{sfnref|Snyder2003a}}}}). Click it and see. This is basic Wikipedia referencing, I shouldn't have to explain it to you.References