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There is an issue here with people failing to understand the difference between ethnicities and nationalities. Ethnically, Marko Boçari was an Arvanite, Christian albanophone Albanian. This was well documented by many authors of the time as well as today's historians. Ethnicities existed way before nations. The modern Greek nation consists of more than one ethnicity. One of those ethnicities is clearly Albanian-Arvanite to which Marko Boçari belonged to. He even created an Albanian-Greek dictionary due to lack of knowledge of Greek by Arvanites in the region at the time. It is true Marko Bocari fought against the Ottoman Empire for Greek independence for the newly established Greek state, however he was an Albanophone. Hiding this would be doing a great disservice to the truth and I don't believe wikipedia articles should be affected by Balkan politics. It is not all black and white. Please see contemporary "Tribes of Albania" by Robert Elsie p.225 where Marko Bocari's ethnic identity is clearly noted. JoeTBA ( talk) 23:15, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
JoeTBA On the one hand I can sympathize with your viewpoint to a degree -- yes, whether dead people personally identified as X or Y is not verifiable, and yes, how you feel does not determine what you are. Sure Botsaris/Bocari/whatever had Albanian descent, he and other Souliotes also fought alongside Greek-speaking Greeks for what became Greece, he's not around to be interviewed, one can legitimately call him either/both Greek or/and Albanian and not be totally wrong. But while it's fine to talk about Napoleon's Corsican/Italian heritage (we do), the same does not apply in Balkan topics. It's a slippery slope from "Markos Botsaris" to the resumption of fights over whether Skanderbeg should be renamed to Ivan/Ioannis/Cthulhu Kastriotic/Kastriotis/2020, plus other similar disputes (Dushan, Ataturk, Obilic, literally anyone from N-Macedonia 1800-1945, how could I forget Tesla, etc).
I'd recommend you move on to content creation (with reliable sources of course) on something that interests you, it'll be much more pleasant. -- Calthinus ( talk) 20:13, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
" In the Name of the Holy and indivisible Trinity. The Greek Nation, under the horrible ottoman rule, unable to carry the heaviest ... yoke ...". Co-signed by the Souli representatives Fotos Bomporis and Zois Panou (Ζώης Πάνου) [1]. Have a nice day.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 09:33, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
It seems that somebody doesn't like this part, or, why is it deleted?
The original manuscript of the dictionary is at the
National Library in
Paris (Supplément Grec 251). Botsaris titled his dictionary “Lexicon of the simple Romaic and Arbanitic language” (Λεξικόν της Ρωμαϊκοις και Αρβανητηκής Απλής (sic)). The Greek terms are in columns on the left of the pages, not in alphabetical order, and the Albanian words on the right, written in Greek letters. Apart from single words, the dictionary includes complexes of words or short phrases. The Greek entries are in total 1701 and the Albanian 1494.
On the first page there is a hand-written notice by Pouqueville: “Ce lexique est écrit de la main de Marc Botzari à Corfou 1809 devant moi.” This manuscript, which includes also a kind of Greek–Albanian self-teaching method with dialogues written by Ioannes Vilaras and a French-Albanian glossary by Pouqueville, was donated by the latter to the Library in 1819. The dictionary was dictated to the young M. Botsaris by his father Kitsos (1754–1813), his uncle Notis (1759–1841) and his father-in-law Christakis Kalogerou from Preveza. Titos Yochalas, a Greek historian who studied and edited the manuscript, noticing that some Greek words are translated into Albanian in more than one way, believes that M. Botsaris was writing the Greek words and the elders were translating into Albanian. As many of the entries seem unlikely to be useful either for the Suliots or the Albanians of that time and circumstances, Yochalas believes that the dictionary was composed after Pouqueville's initiative, possibly as a source for a future French-Albanian dictionary. He also observes that the Albanian phrases are syntaxed as if were Greek, concluding that either the mother tongue of the authors was the Greek or the Greek language had a very strong influence on the Albanian, if the latter was possibly spoken in Souli (Yochalas, p. 53). The Albanian idiom of the dictionary belongs to the Tosk dialect of south Albanian and retains many archaic elements, found also in the dialect spoken by the Greco-Albanian communities of South Italy and Sicily. In the Albanian entries there are many loans from Greek (approx. 510), as well as from Turkish (approx. 190) and Italian (21). Yochalas Titos (editor, 1980) The Greek-Albanian Dictionary of Markos Botsaris. Academy of Greece, Athens 1980 (in Greek), Γιοχάλας Π. Τίτος, Το ελληνο-αλβανικόν λεξικόν του Μάρκου Μπότσαρη (φιλολογική έκδοσις εκ του αυτογράφου), Ακαδημία Αθηνών, 1980.]
@ Deji Olajide1999: What I am "trying to do" is rewrite a poorly worded sentence. You also reverted my edit on Drachma because you didn't bother to check the changes made properly. No quote exists for the ridiculous claim that the Balkans had no ethnic groups in 1809, and even if it did it would be the opinion of a single author. Djks1 ( talk) 18:55, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Khirurg: The article on Souliotes literally describes them as Albanian by origin - Souliot is not an ethnicity, it is a regional identity of a peoples who spoke Albanian and were Albanian by blood due to their origins. The literal article which you refer to describes them as Albanian, there is nothing wrong with keeping that consistency here. I will post this on the TP's of Kitzos Tzavelas and Markos Botsaris where you have reverted me because I do not want to engage in an edit war, and you will explain exactly why this article cannot say the Souliots are Albanian by origin. I do not think placing the ethnicity of the Souliots is necessary in the lede because of obvious reasons, especially on characters such as Marko and Kitsos, but having it in the article is not harmful.
I am going to leave this here prior to making my edit because I highly doubt it will be without contention. Calling Boçari a Greek is misleading, and those who want to keep it there are insisting that being a Greek is more of an idea than an ethnic reality. Marko was a Souliote, which means that ethnically, he was of Albanian origin. I am tempted to add "of Albanian origin" too but it's all one step at a time, and the first thing that needs to be done is have "Greek" removed from the lede because that is not what he is. After the whole debacle at the Souliotes article, this is a necessary and warranting change - the lede there states "The Souliotes were an Orthodox Christian Albanian tribal community in the area of Souli in Epirus from the 16th century to the beginning of the 19th century, who via their participation in the Greek War of Independence came to identify with the Greek nation.", and since Marko was a Souliote, his lede should follow along these lines. Botushali ( talk) 22:24, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Also 'Greek Army general' means 'general of the Greek army'"
(unindent) Regarding the name, a search on Google Scholar for the Albanian variant returns 13 hits [4] for English language sources between 2000 and 2022. When the results are inspected closer, one of the hits is actually Albanian language [5] (only the abstract is in English), one is Italian one is German [https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/fbaf/124d45800209d3e74899c132029c52252b20.pdf, and one is some kind of wiki [6]. So the grand total of English language publications between 2000 and 2022 that just mention "Marko Bocari" is...9. In other words, totally undue for the lede. Khirurg ( talk) 00:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Doch bis dahin dominierte das albanische Element, und ihre Führer horchten eher auf die Namen Marko Boçari und Kiço Xhavella als auf Markos Botsaris und Kitsos Tzavelas, obwohl sie durchaus Griechisch sprachen.
He was an ethnic Albanianand there precisely is the problem. While he did have Albanian ancestry, he certainly did not conceive of himself as an "ethnic Albanian". The Souliotes identified as simply "Souliotes", not "ethnic Albanians". And judging by his actions, he wanted to be Greek, i.e. Greek by choice. Khirurg ( talk) 22:58, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Doch bis dahin dominierte das albanische Element, und ihre Führer horchten eher auf die Namen Marko Boçari und Kiço Xhavella als auf Markos Botsaris und Kitsos Tzavelas, obwohl sie durchaus Griechisch sprachen.
The clan of the subject was written as Botsaraioi (and Μποτσαραίοι ιin the native script) in both primary and secondary sources. Objections for that? Alexikoua ( talk) 02:08, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Avec 425 familles et 20 lignées : les Boçarenj , les Zervenj , les Dangëllinj , les Ducenj , les , Seanj , les Kallrenj , les Nikanj , les Zerbanj , les Karabinejt , les Velianj , les Thanasenj , les Kaskarenj , les Torenj[1]-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
References
"Pushtetin në bashkësi e kishte në dorë këshilli i Sulit që përbëhej nga të 47 krerët e farefiseve më të dëgjuara të vendit. Të tilla farefise ishin: Xhavellajt , Boçarajt , Dhrakajt , Dangëllinjtë , Beqajt , Nikajt , Pantazinjtë , Fotomarrajt , Shehajt , Bushbejtë , Kaskarejtë , Karamanët , Zarbajt , Velajt , Tutajt , Matajt , Shetajt , etj ."translation:
The power in the community was in the hands of the council of Suli, which consisted of the 47 heads of the most renowned clans of the country. Such clans were: Xhavellajt , Boçarajt , Dhrakajt , Dangëllinjtë , Beqajt , Nikajt , Pantazinjtë , Fotomarrajt , Shehajt , Bushbejtë , Kaskarejtë , Karamanët , Zarbajt , Velajt , Tutajt , Matajt , Shetajt , etc.; p. 165:
"Ata u larguan në ujdhesat e Jonit e që këtej u shpërndanë në grupe nëpër Greqi , me udhëheqës Boçarajt ( shumica ) , Xhavellajt , Makrinjtë , Fotomarrën , Kuconikën , Bejkon e të tjerë."translation:
They left towards the Ionian valleys and from here they were dispersed in groups throughout Greece, led by the Boçarajt (the majority), Xhavellajt , Makrinjtë , Fotomarrën , Kuconikën , Bejkon and others.I don't know whether it is also found in the Cham Albanian dialect, perhaps Maleschreiber, who seems to be more informed about that, is right. Nevertheless, the form Boçarajt is the most used in Albanian academic sources referring to this Souliot fara. For instance, Boçarajt is used for the entry of this fara in the Fjalor enciklopedik shqiptar (Albanian Ecyclopaedic Dictionary) of 1985 and 2008. As for the quote provided by Maleschreiber from Ulqini (Ethnographie Albanaise 15), he also refers to the clan with the form Boçaraj, p. 211:
"Le lignage était présidé par l'ancien , dont la fonction d'après certains exemple , devrait être héréditaire dans une famille déterminée , comme on voit pour certaines générations dans la maison des Boçaraj et des Xhavallaj."translation:
The lineage was presided over by the elder, whose function, according to certain examples, should be hereditary in a specific family, as we see for certain generations in the house of Boçaraj and Xhavallaj.– Βατο ( talk) 22:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
There isn't any WP rule saying that we can vote to violate the basic rules of historiography. So, inviting the usual group to support each-other is non-productive, and so is claims for "consensus". The name of the person and the family appears in greek, english and other languages in early 19th century. If Albanians and others transliterated it in their languages, is fine, but it has to come second, third and so on. (Unproven) claims of "Albanian" origin are irrelevant here, unless you find the name in Albanian before was written in Greek.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 20:34, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
I got news for you: Markos Botsaris' son Dimitrios, 12yo in Corfu (1826), is happy to announce to his mother (in perfect Greek) that in Corfu he has a teacher and is perfecting his knowledge of "the dialect of our ancestors" (3rd and 4th line). He doesn't specify the "dialect", so you can let your imagination free. (can someone downsize the picture, please).
"[Markos] was born into the most powerful Souliot fara, the Botsaris clan (Albanian: fara Boçari, Greek: γένος Μπότσαρη)", which up until the end of the Greek Revolution was known in Greek as "Botsarates" (Greek: Μποτσαράτες, Albanian: Boçarenjtë)I was very apprehensive about the edit-warring phase about which name should be first or second, hence for me a mention of the name in plural in Albanian is good enough as a piece which informs readers about this variant.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 22:06, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Poor boy! Having around him a mother, uncles, elders and other relatives, he couldn't wait another 200 years to learn from Psimouli and other WP "R.S." who his ancestors are and their language! Btw, for your info, M.B.'s lexicon includes many "katharevousa" words, because are not much different from the vernacular, and are easily understood even by the non-educated. Indeed, M.B. writes many words both in katharevousa and demotike, e.g. ελαία - ελιά, εωσφόρος - διάβολος etc. (Yohalas T., p. 64).-- Skylax30 ( talk) 18:02, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
This section in the info box is pure ethnic propaganda based on unreliable writers (who is that RICHARD SCHUBERT [23], who "studied cultural anthropology, philosophy, psychology and history in Vienna. [and] He wrote novels, comedies, essays, aphorisms, poetry, songs, screenplays and non-fiction." In how many years did he "study" all those subjects? Any CV or history bibliography of him? This is not a poetry project). "Native name" is not included in the standard template of info box. Can we have samples of other articles? Above all, is there anybody who actually heard M.Botsaris "answering" to a particular form of name? He signed as "Marko-Botsaris". For those who don't know greek, the omission of final "s" from the first name is not an indication of "foreign language" but a very greek phenomenon that occures when you combine two names in one. For example, Mitsotakis, from Mitsos+Takis. It couldn't be "Mitsostakis". Other example: Vardis Vardinogiannis from Vardis+Giannis (here a "no" has replaced the "s". So, you had short Greek lesson.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 08:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Ashmedai 119: "The Souliots were Albanian-speaking by origin" might imply that their "ethnic" origin was not Albanian i.e. they were non-Albanians who became Albanian speakers. Yeah it might sound weird but due to complex Balkan identity issues and controversial nationalist ideas, "X-speaker" is often used to imply that X-speakers speak X language but stem from another, say Y, population. In other words, Souliotes were Albanian in origin both "ethnically" and "linguistically", not only "linguistically". The article already says that Botsaris' mother language was the Souliote dialect of Albanian and as such he was called "Marko Boçari". Ktrimi991 ( talk) 21:24, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
How can we add a transcript of the signature? It cannot be read by someone who doesn't know Greek and we are in the english WP. Thanks.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 19:54, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
Doch bis dahin dominierte das albanische Element, und ihre Führer horchten eher auf die Namen Marko Boçari und Kiço Xhavella als auf Markos Botsaris und Kitsos Tzavelas, obwohl sie durchaus Griechisch sprachen. [Until then, however, the Albanian element was dominant and their leaders answered to the names Marko Boçari Kiço Xhavella rather than Markos Botsaris and Kitsos Tzavelas, although they did speak Greek.Botushali ( talk) 21:56, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
"Native" in what sense? Every "author" can publish pseudo-history, especially if he/she is paid well. Does any of them cite a source which proves the "native" language? On the other hand, even if the native language was Albanian, still it was not written, therefore the use of the modern Albanian (latin) script that was accepted in early 20th century, is OR. Other albanian texts of 19th c. are written in greek letters, including Botsaris' lexicon. Why not write his "native" name in Greek characters, translitterated in english, i.e. exactly the title of the article?-- Skylax30 ( talk) 08:23, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
Doch bis dahin dominierte das albanische Element, und ihre Führer horchten eher auf die Namen Marko Boçari und Kiço Xhavella als auf Markos Botsaris und Kitsos Tzavelas, obwohl sie durchaus Griechisch sprachen. [Until then, however, the Albanian element was dominant and their leaders answered to the names Marko Boçari Kiço Xhavella rather than Markos Botsaris and Kitsos Tzavelas, although they did speak Greek.]
“the Souliots were not monolingual, but had already been using Greek in their communication with the neighbouring populations they had subjected to their poweris the point I am trying to make. They used Greek with their neighbours, but the community in and of itself used Albanian with each other. The Souliotes became bilingual, that is true, but only to communicate with Greek communities; in their own society, Albanian was the dominant language, hence why Albanian is described by sources as the original and native language of the community. As such, Marko, who was born and raised in this community, had Albanian as a mother tongue. This is why it doesn’t make sense to me as to how the Greek name qualifies as native - the whole point of the Souliotes speaking Greek was to communicate with surrounding populations, not to create a way of communicating amongst themselves, although the heavy assimilation of Souliote families after the Greek Independence certainly changed that. Botushali ( talk) 06:50, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
Βατο, you are writing that Katsikas's assertion (as you correctly characterize it taking into account that it is presented without any accompanying evidence) is contrasted with my "opinion" and in your edit's description, adding Katsikas's assertion to the article, you wrote that its goes against "ahistorical original research". The encyclopedia's policy on "original research" is designed to avoid "new analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves". The conclusion that Greek may have been not merely one of the two languages he considered proper to his person, but the mother tongue of Marko Bozzaris (and of the other contributors in the composition of his Greek-Albanian dictionary) is not an "opinion" of mine, but is "clearly stated" by a source that discusses the Greek-Albanian dictionary, his -please do correct me if I am wrong- only extant text in Albanian, that is by Titos Jochalas's study, as you must have seen in a previous comment in the preceding discussion. How do you propose to take this into account in shaping the article? I think that Jochalas's interpretation should be mentioned alongside Katsikas's assertion and the Greek version of the name should be included in the infobox's field designed to state Bozzaris's name in his "own language".
I also want to add that I have a difficulty finding the exact quote that Βατο added. I am checking the article's current version, clicking on the link inserted in the footnote (n. 8) and directed to another footnote (n. 7), and, when checking the book, I do not find the quote in p. 42, but another quote in p. 40 (to which n. 7 refers) stating that "A number of major figures in the 1821 Greek uprising, for example Captain Markos Botsaris, Captain Kitsos Tzavelas, and female naval commander Laskarina Bouboulina, were Arvanites whose mother tongues were dialects of Albanian, not Greek."
In reply to what Botushali wrote above, I feel the need to clarify that I do not doubt that the Souliots were "Albanian speakers even at the onset of the Greek War of Independence", or even much, much later, if i may add -- see this addition I had made to the article on the Souliots. However, I want to draw again attention to the fact that, as I have written above, "The infobox template states that this field should state "the person's name in their own language"" -- not their "mother tongue". This makes sense as there are bilingual individuals: the relative infobox in Joseph Stalin's article, e.g., does state two forms of his name in Georgian and Russian in the "native name" field of the infobox, despite the fact that, per the article, "[e]thnically Georgian, Stalin grew up speaking the Georgian language, and did not begin learning Russian until the age of eight or nine". Even if Jochalas's interpretation of Bozzaris's structuring Albanian following Greek syntax as due to Bozzaris having Greek as his mother tongue were to be entirely discarded, the situation with Bozzaris's bilingualism is such as to warrant the inclusion of the Greek version of his name in the infobox's field stating his name in his "own language". Ashmedai 119 ( talk) 08:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
PS. I am sorry to see that the practice of introducing to the article claims that pass the bare minimum of being "sourced", i.e. attributed to a scholarly source, without any other consideration. To be specific, a claim has been inserted by Maleschreiber timing the Greek variants of the Souliots's names "when they moved south and joined the Greek ranks". The claim is produced without any evidence to support it in a book co-authored by two political scientists (not historians) and, as Maleschreiber himself surely knowns, having used Psimouli's book in the past, is belied by documents of the Souliots presented by Psimouli in her book on the Souliots (I can provide reference and quotes upon demand). What I find particularly ironic is that the authors state that Psimouli's book (whose documented evidence they contradict without providing any reason to do so) is "the best monograph to date" on the Souliots... This is added to Schuberth's quasi-scientific "story book" (per the concluding judgement of Oliver Schmitt that I referred to above), that does not seem to have been taken into account in shaping the article. Ashmedai 119 ( talk) 08:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
To be specific, a claim has been by Maleschreiber timing the Greek variants of the Souliots's names "when they moved south and joined the Greek ranks". The claim is produced without any evidence to support it in a book co-authored by two political scientists (not historians) and, as Maleschreiber himself surely knowns, having used Psimouli's book in the past, is belied by documents of the Souliots presented by Psimouli in her book on the SouliotsThe quote by Heraclides & Kromidha (2023) is
The addition of the ' s ' at the end of their names ( Botzaris , Tzavelas ) , common to most Greek names , appeared when they moved south and joined the Greek ranks.How does this statement contradict Psimouli in essence? The 1803 note does postdate the time the Bocari clan left from Souli and lived between the Arta region and the Ionian islands and the diary. According to Psimouli
Titos Jochalas notes that the Greek part of the dictionary lacks knowledge of grammatical structure of Greek, inexperience in writing and a generally limited formal education both from Marko and his relatives who assisted him. (...) Marko's education must have been based mainly in studying religious texts (...) A lack of knowledge of Greek (grammar and structure) as well as orthography is evident in the very few documents written by Souliots.and Psimouli also notes that even in 1823 he relied on sending letters in Greek to a secretary (Goudas). My point is that I don't see the contradiction with the source I added because the key point of the authors is that Souliots didn't use such surnames among each other, but they only came to be used in a Greek-speaking environment.
Unfortunately, Botsaris did not provide us with an extensive prose text in Greek with a corresponding rendering in Albanian, so that we could more easily check syntactic phenomena of a similar naturewhile in pp.63-64 Jochalas notes that the Greek part of the dictionary is influenced both by the Greek spoken in Epirus and by that of Corfu which Botsaris learnt in Corfu and the Ionian Islands where the lived for many years. I think that the summary of pp.63-64 is reflected in the quote by Psimouli.
An ignorant "political scientist" of Panteion University (the headquarters of the greek extreme Left) decided that the form "Marko Botsaris" is different from "Markos Botsaris" and the former is "Albanian". For those who care, here as a catalogue of surnames from Crete, showing some composite names similar to Markos+Botsaris, where the mid "s" is dropped, as it happens all over Greece: [25]
Markos+Giannakis => Markogiannakis (-akis is the usual suffix of Cretan surnames) Markos+Dimitrakis => Markodimitrakis. Markos+Michelakis (Michalis) => Markomichelakis. Similarly Markantonakis, Markomanolakis, and of course Mitsotakis who is from Crete. The same if the first part is Antonis: Antonogiannakis, Antonogiorgakis etc. The first part can be other than a name, e.g. a profession. The same: Daskalomarkakis (Teacher Markos/Markakis), Daskalantonakis etc. The wise professor (Heraklides) doesn't comment about the final "s" of "Botsaris". He seems to accept that this is "native albanian" too. In a word, ignoring simple Greek does not prevent you from teaching "political science", at least in Panteion. Skylax30 ( talk) 20:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
On August 28th Maleschreiber added in the infobox's "native name" field a second reference so support stating the Albanian version of Bozzari's name written in the modern Albanian alphabet. This was a reference to the book Greek-Albanian Entanglements since the Nineteenth Century: A History by Alexis Heraclides and Ylli Kromidha and the relevant quote that Maleschreiber added states that "The addition of the ' s ' at the end of their names ( Botzaris , Tzavelas ) , common to most Greek names , appeared when they moved south and joined the Greek ranks".
This is an assertion that is outright false and refuted by statements and primary sources cited in Vasso Psimouli's book on "Souli and Souliots" (Σούλι και Σουλιώτες [Athens: Hestia, 2006]). There are a few instances in the chapter on the Souliotic fara ("Τύπος γενών" in the Greek original), where Psimouli states that these names are documented with the final -s. She writes, e.g., in p. 159 that we have the first mention of the name "Tzavelos in an unpublished document of 1780 (or 1786)." "Πρώτη μνεία του ονόματος "Τζαβέλος" έχουμε σε ανέκδοτο έγγραφο του 1780 (ή 1786)". In the book's appendixes one can find primary documents that contradict what Heraclides and Krommidha assert (without any evidentiary support). For example, Psimouli cites in p. 504 of her book a document of "1801 φλεβαρίου -26" (=26th of February 1801) that states "φοτο τζαβέλας γράφι" [Foto Tzavelas] (added emphasis). In the case of Marko, in her biography (Μάρκος Μπότσαρης, 2010) Psimouli cites a note that Marko wrote in 1803 which he signs using his full name as "μάρκο μπότζιαρις" (again, the emphasis is mine). Reference to the note and the relevant quote from Psimouli's biography is already contained in the article having been added by myself on August 18th. What seems rather odd is that the authors (Heraclides and Kromidha) refer to this very same book, stating in the note immediately preceding the one about the final -s [!] that "the best monograph to date [on the Souliots] is by Vaso Psimouli, Souli kai Souliotes [...], but she does not cover the years of the Greek Revolution." They did not seem to bother to explain why the differentiate themselves from what they consider to be the "best monograph to date" on the Souliots. I wrote all this in summary form in the description of my edit removing this reference from the article.
Maleschreiber has since asked, however, "How does this statement [by Heraclides and Kromidha] contradict Psimouli in essence? The 1803 note does postdate the time the Bocari clan left from Souli and lived between the Arta region and the Ionian islands and the diary." I should like to draw the attention of Maleschreiber and other readers of this discussion to the fact that Heraclides and Krommidha postdate the appearance of the final -s in Souliotic surnames with reference to the Souliots "mov[ing] south *and* join[ing] the Greek ranks". The Souliots moved south and joined the Greek ranks during the Greek Revolution, after they abandoned Souli in 1822. They definitely hadn't joined "the Greek ranks" in 1803 when Marko was writing his note. In fact, the Botzaris clan had not joined the Greek ranks, but Ali's serves and they hadn't even moved south at the time: they were installed in Voulgareli, which -after checking a map- everyone can certify is located not southwards but eastwards of Souli. Moreover, even if this was not the case, as I stated in the preceding paragraph, but as was also mentioned in the edit description with which I had removed the inclusion of this false reference to the article and to which Maleschreiber was replying, Marko's 1803 note is not the only document with a final -s cited by Psimouli, but there are other, older documents [once again, please see above], also antedating by lengthier periods of time the fall of Souli, its clans heading southwards and their "join[ing] the Greek ranks", which only happened during the Revolution.
I also want to remark that neither Alexis Heraclides nor Ylli Kromidha are historians. They are both political scientists, Kromidha having recently received his PhD with Heraclides as his supervisor and a dissertation on "The role of preventive diplomacy in the maintenance of FYROM'S [sic] Unity: the dispute between Athens and Skopje and the conflict between Albanians and Slavomacedonians" (Greek title: "Ο ρόλος της προληπτικής διπλωματίας στην διατήρηση της ενότητας της ΠΓΔΜ: η διένεξη Αθήνας–Σκοπίων (1990-1995) και η εθνοτική σύγκρουση Αλβανών-Σλαβομακεδόνων (1991-2001)"), in other words his field is contemporary international relations.
Given that (a) the authors do not accompany their assertion with any evidence, (b) they are not established authorities on this aspect of 18th/19th century history, and that (c) the author they suggest as the most reliable authority on the matter contradicts their uncorroborated claim and cites primary sources that refute them, I think that this reference should be removed from the encyclopedia.
To avoid any possible misunderstanding of my intentions, I want to stress that I am not writing in order to have the form of Marko's name transcribed in modern Albanian removed from the infobox's native name -- in fact I had inserted a reference to a reliable source that has now been (IMHO wrongly) removed. I do, however, think that we should not include references to dubious scholarly works with uncorroborated assertions that contradict primary evidence and truly reliable secondary sources by specialists, as is the case with the book by Heraclides and Kromidha. Ashmedai 119 ( talk) 11:28, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
It is said in this wikipedia page that his name was Markos Botsaris. I am putting this up, because wikipedia is about the truth, and that is not true. Albanians say the last name as "Boçari", and Greeks as "Botsaris". Before we make any assumptions without evidence, we need to find out the meaning of this surname. The surname "Boçari" in Albanian is a common surname that can originate from the words "boçkë" or "boç". "Boçkë" means a small morsel, while "boç" can be used to describe a small cattle or a small animal. Hence the name 'Boçari' may be related to the word for small or diminutive animal. In Greek, "Boçari/Botsaris" may be related to the word "βόσκαρης" (vóskaris), which refers to a person who takes care of cattle in the mountains or forests. This word originates from the word "βόσκω" (vósko), which means "to herd" or "to tend cattle". Therefore, in this context, "Botsaris" can refer to a person who deals with animals in the countryside or in nature. Now, the surname can be said that it has meaning from both languages, but the surname Boçari/Botsaris is now usually only the surname of Chams, and Arvanites, and this surname is also common in some Albanian villages or small cities, including Mallakastër, but not by Greeks.
In the page of Markos Botsaris it specifically says in the first sentences that he was a Suliote, and not a Greek. In the first sentence of the page of Suliotes, it reads "The Souliotes were an Orthodox Christian Albanian tribal community in the area of Souli in Epirus from the 16th century to the beginning of the 19th century, who via their participation in the Greek War of Independence came to identify with the Greek nation." so if they identified as Greek due to their participation in the Greek war, they identified after Greece was independent and the wars stopped, but Marko Bocari was killed in a battle, well before he could identify as a Greek. Andi Atdhetari ( talk) 19:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
As this talk page shows, there has been an intractable debate on whether the subject should be described as Greek (or Albanian etc) and what spelling his name should have and connected questions. This RfC hopes to solve this issue. The issues are as follows:
Jtrrs0 ( talk) 12:23, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Παρόλο που οι παραπάνω επισημάνσεις σε μεγάλο βαθμό απηχούν πολιτικές θέσεις των συντακτών, η γλωσσική μετατόπιση προς τα ελληνικά σε χριστιανικούς αλλά ακόμη και μουσουλμανικούς πληθυσμούς, ισχύει όπως είδαμε τόσο στην περιφέρεια της αλβανόφωνης περιοχής όσο και σε μερικές κωμοπόλεις και πόλεις. Αντίθετα, το μεγαλύτερο τμήμα του αλβανόφωνου πληθυσμού, χριστιανικού και μουσουλμανικού, μιλούσε και κατανοούσε μόνο αλβανικά σε όλη τη διάρκεια του 19ου αιώνα. Η πραγματικότητα αυτή, που άλλωστε επιβεβαιώνεται από προσεκτικούς περιηγητές, συσκοτίζεται με αφορμή την υποτιθέμενη διγλωσσία των Σουλιωτών. Έτσι, παρά το γεγονός ότι η Ψιμούλη αναφέρεται εξαντλητικά στην αλβανοφωνία των Σουλιωτών, υπερτονίζει τη γνώση της ελληνικής από τους Σουλιώτες βασισμένη στα συμπεράσματα του Τίτου Γιοχάλα σε σχέση με το «δίγλωσσο λεξικό» του Μάρκου Μπότσαρη. Όπως έχει όμως αποδειχθεί, τα συμπεράσματα αυτά εδράζονται σε εντελώς λανθασμένη βάση." In essence Baltsiotis writes that throughout the 19th century most of the Muslim and Christian Albanian speaking population of the area spoke and understood only Albanian, a reality confirmed carefully by travellers of the day. Baltsiotis says that Psimouli has exhaustively referred to the Albanian language of the Souliots, and that the Souliots knowledge of Greek has been overemphasised by Psimouli who cites Tito Yochalas conclusion on Marko Botsaris' bilingual dictionary. Within the wider context, in sum Baltsiotis writes that such conclusions about Greek speech and the Souliots are based on a completely wrong basis. Hope it helps. Best. Resnjari ( talk) 23:32, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
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2A02:1388:414F:5860:8DA5:1CCA:4D5F:447 ( talk) 07:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC) Yes Markos Bocaris was a Greek Hero fought against Ottomans . And you say no vandalism ? You have already vandalized it 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
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Markos bocaris was Greek not Albanian 79.103.211.106 ( talk) 09:21, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
This article has many errors and it seems unable for someone to edit it.Why is Wikipedia allows so many errors? Adilaugh ( talk) 17:05, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
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There is an issue here with people failing to understand the difference between ethnicities and nationalities. Ethnically, Marko Boçari was an Arvanite, Christian albanophone Albanian. This was well documented by many authors of the time as well as today's historians. Ethnicities existed way before nations. The modern Greek nation consists of more than one ethnicity. One of those ethnicities is clearly Albanian-Arvanite to which Marko Boçari belonged to. He even created an Albanian-Greek dictionary due to lack of knowledge of Greek by Arvanites in the region at the time. It is true Marko Bocari fought against the Ottoman Empire for Greek independence for the newly established Greek state, however he was an Albanophone. Hiding this would be doing a great disservice to the truth and I don't believe wikipedia articles should be affected by Balkan politics. It is not all black and white. Please see contemporary "Tribes of Albania" by Robert Elsie p.225 where Marko Bocari's ethnic identity is clearly noted. JoeTBA ( talk) 23:15, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
JoeTBA On the one hand I can sympathize with your viewpoint to a degree -- yes, whether dead people personally identified as X or Y is not verifiable, and yes, how you feel does not determine what you are. Sure Botsaris/Bocari/whatever had Albanian descent, he and other Souliotes also fought alongside Greek-speaking Greeks for what became Greece, he's not around to be interviewed, one can legitimately call him either/both Greek or/and Albanian and not be totally wrong. But while it's fine to talk about Napoleon's Corsican/Italian heritage (we do), the same does not apply in Balkan topics. It's a slippery slope from "Markos Botsaris" to the resumption of fights over whether Skanderbeg should be renamed to Ivan/Ioannis/Cthulhu Kastriotic/Kastriotis/2020, plus other similar disputes (Dushan, Ataturk, Obilic, literally anyone from N-Macedonia 1800-1945, how could I forget Tesla, etc).
I'd recommend you move on to content creation (with reliable sources of course) on something that interests you, it'll be much more pleasant. -- Calthinus ( talk) 20:13, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
" In the Name of the Holy and indivisible Trinity. The Greek Nation, under the horrible ottoman rule, unable to carry the heaviest ... yoke ...". Co-signed by the Souli representatives Fotos Bomporis and Zois Panou (Ζώης Πάνου) [1]. Have a nice day.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 09:33, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
It seems that somebody doesn't like this part, or, why is it deleted?
The original manuscript of the dictionary is at the
National Library in
Paris (Supplément Grec 251). Botsaris titled his dictionary “Lexicon of the simple Romaic and Arbanitic language” (Λεξικόν της Ρωμαϊκοις και Αρβανητηκής Απλής (sic)). The Greek terms are in columns on the left of the pages, not in alphabetical order, and the Albanian words on the right, written in Greek letters. Apart from single words, the dictionary includes complexes of words or short phrases. The Greek entries are in total 1701 and the Albanian 1494.
On the first page there is a hand-written notice by Pouqueville: “Ce lexique est écrit de la main de Marc Botzari à Corfou 1809 devant moi.” This manuscript, which includes also a kind of Greek–Albanian self-teaching method with dialogues written by Ioannes Vilaras and a French-Albanian glossary by Pouqueville, was donated by the latter to the Library in 1819. The dictionary was dictated to the young M. Botsaris by his father Kitsos (1754–1813), his uncle Notis (1759–1841) and his father-in-law Christakis Kalogerou from Preveza. Titos Yochalas, a Greek historian who studied and edited the manuscript, noticing that some Greek words are translated into Albanian in more than one way, believes that M. Botsaris was writing the Greek words and the elders were translating into Albanian. As many of the entries seem unlikely to be useful either for the Suliots or the Albanians of that time and circumstances, Yochalas believes that the dictionary was composed after Pouqueville's initiative, possibly as a source for a future French-Albanian dictionary. He also observes that the Albanian phrases are syntaxed as if were Greek, concluding that either the mother tongue of the authors was the Greek or the Greek language had a very strong influence on the Albanian, if the latter was possibly spoken in Souli (Yochalas, p. 53). The Albanian idiom of the dictionary belongs to the Tosk dialect of south Albanian and retains many archaic elements, found also in the dialect spoken by the Greco-Albanian communities of South Italy and Sicily. In the Albanian entries there are many loans from Greek (approx. 510), as well as from Turkish (approx. 190) and Italian (21). Yochalas Titos (editor, 1980) The Greek-Albanian Dictionary of Markos Botsaris. Academy of Greece, Athens 1980 (in Greek), Γιοχάλας Π. Τίτος, Το ελληνο-αλβανικόν λεξικόν του Μάρκου Μπότσαρη (φιλολογική έκδοσις εκ του αυτογράφου), Ακαδημία Αθηνών, 1980.]
@ Deji Olajide1999: What I am "trying to do" is rewrite a poorly worded sentence. You also reverted my edit on Drachma because you didn't bother to check the changes made properly. No quote exists for the ridiculous claim that the Balkans had no ethnic groups in 1809, and even if it did it would be the opinion of a single author. Djks1 ( talk) 18:55, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
@ Khirurg: The article on Souliotes literally describes them as Albanian by origin - Souliot is not an ethnicity, it is a regional identity of a peoples who spoke Albanian and were Albanian by blood due to their origins. The literal article which you refer to describes them as Albanian, there is nothing wrong with keeping that consistency here. I will post this on the TP's of Kitzos Tzavelas and Markos Botsaris where you have reverted me because I do not want to engage in an edit war, and you will explain exactly why this article cannot say the Souliots are Albanian by origin. I do not think placing the ethnicity of the Souliots is necessary in the lede because of obvious reasons, especially on characters such as Marko and Kitsos, but having it in the article is not harmful.
I am going to leave this here prior to making my edit because I highly doubt it will be without contention. Calling Boçari a Greek is misleading, and those who want to keep it there are insisting that being a Greek is more of an idea than an ethnic reality. Marko was a Souliote, which means that ethnically, he was of Albanian origin. I am tempted to add "of Albanian origin" too but it's all one step at a time, and the first thing that needs to be done is have "Greek" removed from the lede because that is not what he is. After the whole debacle at the Souliotes article, this is a necessary and warranting change - the lede there states "The Souliotes were an Orthodox Christian Albanian tribal community in the area of Souli in Epirus from the 16th century to the beginning of the 19th century, who via their participation in the Greek War of Independence came to identify with the Greek nation.", and since Marko was a Souliote, his lede should follow along these lines. Botushali ( talk) 22:24, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Also 'Greek Army general' means 'general of the Greek army'"
(unindent) Regarding the name, a search on Google Scholar for the Albanian variant returns 13 hits [4] for English language sources between 2000 and 2022. When the results are inspected closer, one of the hits is actually Albanian language [5] (only the abstract is in English), one is Italian one is German [https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/fbaf/124d45800209d3e74899c132029c52252b20.pdf, and one is some kind of wiki [6]. So the grand total of English language publications between 2000 and 2022 that just mention "Marko Bocari" is...9. In other words, totally undue for the lede. Khirurg ( talk) 00:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)
Doch bis dahin dominierte das albanische Element, und ihre Führer horchten eher auf die Namen Marko Boçari und Kiço Xhavella als auf Markos Botsaris und Kitsos Tzavelas, obwohl sie durchaus Griechisch sprachen.
He was an ethnic Albanianand there precisely is the problem. While he did have Albanian ancestry, he certainly did not conceive of himself as an "ethnic Albanian". The Souliotes identified as simply "Souliotes", not "ethnic Albanians". And judging by his actions, he wanted to be Greek, i.e. Greek by choice. Khirurg ( talk) 22:58, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Doch bis dahin dominierte das albanische Element, und ihre Führer horchten eher auf die Namen Marko Boçari und Kiço Xhavella als auf Markos Botsaris und Kitsos Tzavelas, obwohl sie durchaus Griechisch sprachen.
The clan of the subject was written as Botsaraioi (and Μποτσαραίοι ιin the native script) in both primary and secondary sources. Objections for that? Alexikoua ( talk) 02:08, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Avec 425 familles et 20 lignées : les Boçarenj , les Zervenj , les Dangëllinj , les Ducenj , les , Seanj , les Kallrenj , les Nikanj , les Zerbanj , les Karabinejt , les Velianj , les Thanasenj , les Kaskarenj , les Torenj[1]-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 21:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
References
"Pushtetin në bashkësi e kishte në dorë këshilli i Sulit që përbëhej nga të 47 krerët e farefiseve më të dëgjuara të vendit. Të tilla farefise ishin: Xhavellajt , Boçarajt , Dhrakajt , Dangëllinjtë , Beqajt , Nikajt , Pantazinjtë , Fotomarrajt , Shehajt , Bushbejtë , Kaskarejtë , Karamanët , Zarbajt , Velajt , Tutajt , Matajt , Shetajt , etj ."translation:
The power in the community was in the hands of the council of Suli, which consisted of the 47 heads of the most renowned clans of the country. Such clans were: Xhavellajt , Boçarajt , Dhrakajt , Dangëllinjtë , Beqajt , Nikajt , Pantazinjtë , Fotomarrajt , Shehajt , Bushbejtë , Kaskarejtë , Karamanët , Zarbajt , Velajt , Tutajt , Matajt , Shetajt , etc.; p. 165:
"Ata u larguan në ujdhesat e Jonit e që këtej u shpërndanë në grupe nëpër Greqi , me udhëheqës Boçarajt ( shumica ) , Xhavellajt , Makrinjtë , Fotomarrën , Kuconikën , Bejkon e të tjerë."translation:
They left towards the Ionian valleys and from here they were dispersed in groups throughout Greece, led by the Boçarajt (the majority), Xhavellajt , Makrinjtë , Fotomarrën , Kuconikën , Bejkon and others.I don't know whether it is also found in the Cham Albanian dialect, perhaps Maleschreiber, who seems to be more informed about that, is right. Nevertheless, the form Boçarajt is the most used in Albanian academic sources referring to this Souliot fara. For instance, Boçarajt is used for the entry of this fara in the Fjalor enciklopedik shqiptar (Albanian Ecyclopaedic Dictionary) of 1985 and 2008. As for the quote provided by Maleschreiber from Ulqini (Ethnographie Albanaise 15), he also refers to the clan with the form Boçaraj, p. 211:
"Le lignage était présidé par l'ancien , dont la fonction d'après certains exemple , devrait être héréditaire dans une famille déterminée , comme on voit pour certaines générations dans la maison des Boçaraj et des Xhavallaj."translation:
The lineage was presided over by the elder, whose function, according to certain examples, should be hereditary in a specific family, as we see for certain generations in the house of Boçaraj and Xhavallaj.– Βατο ( talk) 22:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
There isn't any WP rule saying that we can vote to violate the basic rules of historiography. So, inviting the usual group to support each-other is non-productive, and so is claims for "consensus". The name of the person and the family appears in greek, english and other languages in early 19th century. If Albanians and others transliterated it in their languages, is fine, but it has to come second, third and so on. (Unproven) claims of "Albanian" origin are irrelevant here, unless you find the name in Albanian before was written in Greek.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 20:34, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
I got news for you: Markos Botsaris' son Dimitrios, 12yo in Corfu (1826), is happy to announce to his mother (in perfect Greek) that in Corfu he has a teacher and is perfecting his knowledge of "the dialect of our ancestors" (3rd and 4th line). He doesn't specify the "dialect", so you can let your imagination free. (can someone downsize the picture, please).
"[Markos] was born into the most powerful Souliot fara, the Botsaris clan (Albanian: fara Boçari, Greek: γένος Μπότσαρη)", which up until the end of the Greek Revolution was known in Greek as "Botsarates" (Greek: Μποτσαράτες, Albanian: Boçarenjtë)I was very apprehensive about the edit-warring phase about which name should be first or second, hence for me a mention of the name in plural in Albanian is good enough as a piece which informs readers about this variant.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 22:06, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
Poor boy! Having around him a mother, uncles, elders and other relatives, he couldn't wait another 200 years to learn from Psimouli and other WP "R.S." who his ancestors are and their language! Btw, for your info, M.B.'s lexicon includes many "katharevousa" words, because are not much different from the vernacular, and are easily understood even by the non-educated. Indeed, M.B. writes many words both in katharevousa and demotike, e.g. ελαία - ελιά, εωσφόρος - διάβολος etc. (Yohalas T., p. 64).-- Skylax30 ( talk) 18:02, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
This section in the info box is pure ethnic propaganda based on unreliable writers (who is that RICHARD SCHUBERT [23], who "studied cultural anthropology, philosophy, psychology and history in Vienna. [and] He wrote novels, comedies, essays, aphorisms, poetry, songs, screenplays and non-fiction." In how many years did he "study" all those subjects? Any CV or history bibliography of him? This is not a poetry project). "Native name" is not included in the standard template of info box. Can we have samples of other articles? Above all, is there anybody who actually heard M.Botsaris "answering" to a particular form of name? He signed as "Marko-Botsaris". For those who don't know greek, the omission of final "s" from the first name is not an indication of "foreign language" but a very greek phenomenon that occures when you combine two names in one. For example, Mitsotakis, from Mitsos+Takis. It couldn't be "Mitsostakis". Other example: Vardis Vardinogiannis from Vardis+Giannis (here a "no" has replaced the "s". So, you had short Greek lesson.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 08:09, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
@ Ashmedai 119: "The Souliots were Albanian-speaking by origin" might imply that their "ethnic" origin was not Albanian i.e. they were non-Albanians who became Albanian speakers. Yeah it might sound weird but due to complex Balkan identity issues and controversial nationalist ideas, "X-speaker" is often used to imply that X-speakers speak X language but stem from another, say Y, population. In other words, Souliotes were Albanian in origin both "ethnically" and "linguistically", not only "linguistically". The article already says that Botsaris' mother language was the Souliote dialect of Albanian and as such he was called "Marko Boçari". Ktrimi991 ( talk) 21:24, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
How can we add a transcript of the signature? It cannot be read by someone who doesn't know Greek and we are in the english WP. Thanks.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 19:54, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
Doch bis dahin dominierte das albanische Element, und ihre Führer horchten eher auf die Namen Marko Boçari und Kiço Xhavella als auf Markos Botsaris und Kitsos Tzavelas, obwohl sie durchaus Griechisch sprachen. [Until then, however, the Albanian element was dominant and their leaders answered to the names Marko Boçari Kiço Xhavella rather than Markos Botsaris and Kitsos Tzavelas, although they did speak Greek.Botushali ( talk) 21:56, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
"Native" in what sense? Every "author" can publish pseudo-history, especially if he/she is paid well. Does any of them cite a source which proves the "native" language? On the other hand, even if the native language was Albanian, still it was not written, therefore the use of the modern Albanian (latin) script that was accepted in early 20th century, is OR. Other albanian texts of 19th c. are written in greek letters, including Botsaris' lexicon. Why not write his "native" name in Greek characters, translitterated in english, i.e. exactly the title of the article?-- Skylax30 ( talk) 08:23, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
Doch bis dahin dominierte das albanische Element, und ihre Führer horchten eher auf die Namen Marko Boçari und Kiço Xhavella als auf Markos Botsaris und Kitsos Tzavelas, obwohl sie durchaus Griechisch sprachen. [Until then, however, the Albanian element was dominant and their leaders answered to the names Marko Boçari Kiço Xhavella rather than Markos Botsaris and Kitsos Tzavelas, although they did speak Greek.]
“the Souliots were not monolingual, but had already been using Greek in their communication with the neighbouring populations they had subjected to their poweris the point I am trying to make. They used Greek with their neighbours, but the community in and of itself used Albanian with each other. The Souliotes became bilingual, that is true, but only to communicate with Greek communities; in their own society, Albanian was the dominant language, hence why Albanian is described by sources as the original and native language of the community. As such, Marko, who was born and raised in this community, had Albanian as a mother tongue. This is why it doesn’t make sense to me as to how the Greek name qualifies as native - the whole point of the Souliotes speaking Greek was to communicate with surrounding populations, not to create a way of communicating amongst themselves, although the heavy assimilation of Souliote families after the Greek Independence certainly changed that. Botushali ( talk) 06:50, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
Βατο, you are writing that Katsikas's assertion (as you correctly characterize it taking into account that it is presented without any accompanying evidence) is contrasted with my "opinion" and in your edit's description, adding Katsikas's assertion to the article, you wrote that its goes against "ahistorical original research". The encyclopedia's policy on "original research" is designed to avoid "new analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves". The conclusion that Greek may have been not merely one of the two languages he considered proper to his person, but the mother tongue of Marko Bozzaris (and of the other contributors in the composition of his Greek-Albanian dictionary) is not an "opinion" of mine, but is "clearly stated" by a source that discusses the Greek-Albanian dictionary, his -please do correct me if I am wrong- only extant text in Albanian, that is by Titos Jochalas's study, as you must have seen in a previous comment in the preceding discussion. How do you propose to take this into account in shaping the article? I think that Jochalas's interpretation should be mentioned alongside Katsikas's assertion and the Greek version of the name should be included in the infobox's field designed to state Bozzaris's name in his "own language".
I also want to add that I have a difficulty finding the exact quote that Βατο added. I am checking the article's current version, clicking on the link inserted in the footnote (n. 8) and directed to another footnote (n. 7), and, when checking the book, I do not find the quote in p. 42, but another quote in p. 40 (to which n. 7 refers) stating that "A number of major figures in the 1821 Greek uprising, for example Captain Markos Botsaris, Captain Kitsos Tzavelas, and female naval commander Laskarina Bouboulina, were Arvanites whose mother tongues were dialects of Albanian, not Greek."
In reply to what Botushali wrote above, I feel the need to clarify that I do not doubt that the Souliots were "Albanian speakers even at the onset of the Greek War of Independence", or even much, much later, if i may add -- see this addition I had made to the article on the Souliots. However, I want to draw again attention to the fact that, as I have written above, "The infobox template states that this field should state "the person's name in their own language"" -- not their "mother tongue". This makes sense as there are bilingual individuals: the relative infobox in Joseph Stalin's article, e.g., does state two forms of his name in Georgian and Russian in the "native name" field of the infobox, despite the fact that, per the article, "[e]thnically Georgian, Stalin grew up speaking the Georgian language, and did not begin learning Russian until the age of eight or nine". Even if Jochalas's interpretation of Bozzaris's structuring Albanian following Greek syntax as due to Bozzaris having Greek as his mother tongue were to be entirely discarded, the situation with Bozzaris's bilingualism is such as to warrant the inclusion of the Greek version of his name in the infobox's field stating his name in his "own language". Ashmedai 119 ( talk) 08:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
PS. I am sorry to see that the practice of introducing to the article claims that pass the bare minimum of being "sourced", i.e. attributed to a scholarly source, without any other consideration. To be specific, a claim has been inserted by Maleschreiber timing the Greek variants of the Souliots's names "when they moved south and joined the Greek ranks". The claim is produced without any evidence to support it in a book co-authored by two political scientists (not historians) and, as Maleschreiber himself surely knowns, having used Psimouli's book in the past, is belied by documents of the Souliots presented by Psimouli in her book on the Souliots (I can provide reference and quotes upon demand). What I find particularly ironic is that the authors state that Psimouli's book (whose documented evidence they contradict without providing any reason to do so) is "the best monograph to date" on the Souliots... This is added to Schuberth's quasi-scientific "story book" (per the concluding judgement of Oliver Schmitt that I referred to above), that does not seem to have been taken into account in shaping the article. Ashmedai 119 ( talk) 08:21, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
To be specific, a claim has been by Maleschreiber timing the Greek variants of the Souliots's names "when they moved south and joined the Greek ranks". The claim is produced without any evidence to support it in a book co-authored by two political scientists (not historians) and, as Maleschreiber himself surely knowns, having used Psimouli's book in the past, is belied by documents of the Souliots presented by Psimouli in her book on the SouliotsThe quote by Heraclides & Kromidha (2023) is
The addition of the ' s ' at the end of their names ( Botzaris , Tzavelas ) , common to most Greek names , appeared when they moved south and joined the Greek ranks.How does this statement contradict Psimouli in essence? The 1803 note does postdate the time the Bocari clan left from Souli and lived between the Arta region and the Ionian islands and the diary. According to Psimouli
Titos Jochalas notes that the Greek part of the dictionary lacks knowledge of grammatical structure of Greek, inexperience in writing and a generally limited formal education both from Marko and his relatives who assisted him. (...) Marko's education must have been based mainly in studying religious texts (...) A lack of knowledge of Greek (grammar and structure) as well as orthography is evident in the very few documents written by Souliots.and Psimouli also notes that even in 1823 he relied on sending letters in Greek to a secretary (Goudas). My point is that I don't see the contradiction with the source I added because the key point of the authors is that Souliots didn't use such surnames among each other, but they only came to be used in a Greek-speaking environment.
Unfortunately, Botsaris did not provide us with an extensive prose text in Greek with a corresponding rendering in Albanian, so that we could more easily check syntactic phenomena of a similar naturewhile in pp.63-64 Jochalas notes that the Greek part of the dictionary is influenced both by the Greek spoken in Epirus and by that of Corfu which Botsaris learnt in Corfu and the Ionian Islands where the lived for many years. I think that the summary of pp.63-64 is reflected in the quote by Psimouli.
An ignorant "political scientist" of Panteion University (the headquarters of the greek extreme Left) decided that the form "Marko Botsaris" is different from "Markos Botsaris" and the former is "Albanian". For those who care, here as a catalogue of surnames from Crete, showing some composite names similar to Markos+Botsaris, where the mid "s" is dropped, as it happens all over Greece: [25]
Markos+Giannakis => Markogiannakis (-akis is the usual suffix of Cretan surnames) Markos+Dimitrakis => Markodimitrakis. Markos+Michelakis (Michalis) => Markomichelakis. Similarly Markantonakis, Markomanolakis, and of course Mitsotakis who is from Crete. The same if the first part is Antonis: Antonogiannakis, Antonogiorgakis etc. The first part can be other than a name, e.g. a profession. The same: Daskalomarkakis (Teacher Markos/Markakis), Daskalantonakis etc. The wise professor (Heraklides) doesn't comment about the final "s" of "Botsaris". He seems to accept that this is "native albanian" too. In a word, ignoring simple Greek does not prevent you from teaching "political science", at least in Panteion. Skylax30 ( talk) 20:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
On August 28th Maleschreiber added in the infobox's "native name" field a second reference so support stating the Albanian version of Bozzari's name written in the modern Albanian alphabet. This was a reference to the book Greek-Albanian Entanglements since the Nineteenth Century: A History by Alexis Heraclides and Ylli Kromidha and the relevant quote that Maleschreiber added states that "The addition of the ' s ' at the end of their names ( Botzaris , Tzavelas ) , common to most Greek names , appeared when they moved south and joined the Greek ranks".
This is an assertion that is outright false and refuted by statements and primary sources cited in Vasso Psimouli's book on "Souli and Souliots" (Σούλι και Σουλιώτες [Athens: Hestia, 2006]). There are a few instances in the chapter on the Souliotic fara ("Τύπος γενών" in the Greek original), where Psimouli states that these names are documented with the final -s. She writes, e.g., in p. 159 that we have the first mention of the name "Tzavelos in an unpublished document of 1780 (or 1786)." "Πρώτη μνεία του ονόματος "Τζαβέλος" έχουμε σε ανέκδοτο έγγραφο του 1780 (ή 1786)". In the book's appendixes one can find primary documents that contradict what Heraclides and Krommidha assert (without any evidentiary support). For example, Psimouli cites in p. 504 of her book a document of "1801 φλεβαρίου -26" (=26th of February 1801) that states "φοτο τζαβέλας γράφι" [Foto Tzavelas] (added emphasis). In the case of Marko, in her biography (Μάρκος Μπότσαρης, 2010) Psimouli cites a note that Marko wrote in 1803 which he signs using his full name as "μάρκο μπότζιαρις" (again, the emphasis is mine). Reference to the note and the relevant quote from Psimouli's biography is already contained in the article having been added by myself on August 18th. What seems rather odd is that the authors (Heraclides and Kromidha) refer to this very same book, stating in the note immediately preceding the one about the final -s [!] that "the best monograph to date [on the Souliots] is by Vaso Psimouli, Souli kai Souliotes [...], but she does not cover the years of the Greek Revolution." They did not seem to bother to explain why the differentiate themselves from what they consider to be the "best monograph to date" on the Souliots. I wrote all this in summary form in the description of my edit removing this reference from the article.
Maleschreiber has since asked, however, "How does this statement [by Heraclides and Kromidha] contradict Psimouli in essence? The 1803 note does postdate the time the Bocari clan left from Souli and lived between the Arta region and the Ionian islands and the diary." I should like to draw the attention of Maleschreiber and other readers of this discussion to the fact that Heraclides and Krommidha postdate the appearance of the final -s in Souliotic surnames with reference to the Souliots "mov[ing] south *and* join[ing] the Greek ranks". The Souliots moved south and joined the Greek ranks during the Greek Revolution, after they abandoned Souli in 1822. They definitely hadn't joined "the Greek ranks" in 1803 when Marko was writing his note. In fact, the Botzaris clan had not joined the Greek ranks, but Ali's serves and they hadn't even moved south at the time: they were installed in Voulgareli, which -after checking a map- everyone can certify is located not southwards but eastwards of Souli. Moreover, even if this was not the case, as I stated in the preceding paragraph, but as was also mentioned in the edit description with which I had removed the inclusion of this false reference to the article and to which Maleschreiber was replying, Marko's 1803 note is not the only document with a final -s cited by Psimouli, but there are other, older documents [once again, please see above], also antedating by lengthier periods of time the fall of Souli, its clans heading southwards and their "join[ing] the Greek ranks", which only happened during the Revolution.
I also want to remark that neither Alexis Heraclides nor Ylli Kromidha are historians. They are both political scientists, Kromidha having recently received his PhD with Heraclides as his supervisor and a dissertation on "The role of preventive diplomacy in the maintenance of FYROM'S [sic] Unity: the dispute between Athens and Skopje and the conflict between Albanians and Slavomacedonians" (Greek title: "Ο ρόλος της προληπτικής διπλωματίας στην διατήρηση της ενότητας της ΠΓΔΜ: η διένεξη Αθήνας–Σκοπίων (1990-1995) και η εθνοτική σύγκρουση Αλβανών-Σλαβομακεδόνων (1991-2001)"), in other words his field is contemporary international relations.
Given that (a) the authors do not accompany their assertion with any evidence, (b) they are not established authorities on this aspect of 18th/19th century history, and that (c) the author they suggest as the most reliable authority on the matter contradicts their uncorroborated claim and cites primary sources that refute them, I think that this reference should be removed from the encyclopedia.
To avoid any possible misunderstanding of my intentions, I want to stress that I am not writing in order to have the form of Marko's name transcribed in modern Albanian removed from the infobox's native name -- in fact I had inserted a reference to a reliable source that has now been (IMHO wrongly) removed. I do, however, think that we should not include references to dubious scholarly works with uncorroborated assertions that contradict primary evidence and truly reliable secondary sources by specialists, as is the case with the book by Heraclides and Kromidha. Ashmedai 119 ( talk) 11:28, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
It is said in this wikipedia page that his name was Markos Botsaris. I am putting this up, because wikipedia is about the truth, and that is not true. Albanians say the last name as "Boçari", and Greeks as "Botsaris". Before we make any assumptions without evidence, we need to find out the meaning of this surname. The surname "Boçari" in Albanian is a common surname that can originate from the words "boçkë" or "boç". "Boçkë" means a small morsel, while "boç" can be used to describe a small cattle or a small animal. Hence the name 'Boçari' may be related to the word for small or diminutive animal. In Greek, "Boçari/Botsaris" may be related to the word "βόσκαρης" (vóskaris), which refers to a person who takes care of cattle in the mountains or forests. This word originates from the word "βόσκω" (vósko), which means "to herd" or "to tend cattle". Therefore, in this context, "Botsaris" can refer to a person who deals with animals in the countryside or in nature. Now, the surname can be said that it has meaning from both languages, but the surname Boçari/Botsaris is now usually only the surname of Chams, and Arvanites, and this surname is also common in some Albanian villages or small cities, including Mallakastër, but not by Greeks.
In the page of Markos Botsaris it specifically says in the first sentences that he was a Suliote, and not a Greek. In the first sentence of the page of Suliotes, it reads "The Souliotes were an Orthodox Christian Albanian tribal community in the area of Souli in Epirus from the 16th century to the beginning of the 19th century, who via their participation in the Greek War of Independence came to identify with the Greek nation." so if they identified as Greek due to their participation in the Greek war, they identified after Greece was independent and the wars stopped, but Marko Bocari was killed in a battle, well before he could identify as a Greek. Andi Atdhetari ( talk) 19:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
As this talk page shows, there has been an intractable debate on whether the subject should be described as Greek (or Albanian etc) and what spelling his name should have and connected questions. This RfC hopes to solve this issue. The issues are as follows:
Jtrrs0 ( talk) 12:23, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
Παρόλο που οι παραπάνω επισημάνσεις σε μεγάλο βαθμό απηχούν πολιτικές θέσεις των συντακτών, η γλωσσική μετατόπιση προς τα ελληνικά σε χριστιανικούς αλλά ακόμη και μουσουλμανικούς πληθυσμούς, ισχύει όπως είδαμε τόσο στην περιφέρεια της αλβανόφωνης περιοχής όσο και σε μερικές κωμοπόλεις και πόλεις. Αντίθετα, το μεγαλύτερο τμήμα του αλβανόφωνου πληθυσμού, χριστιανικού και μουσουλμανικού, μιλούσε και κατανοούσε μόνο αλβανικά σε όλη τη διάρκεια του 19ου αιώνα. Η πραγματικότητα αυτή, που άλλωστε επιβεβαιώνεται από προσεκτικούς περιηγητές, συσκοτίζεται με αφορμή την υποτιθέμενη διγλωσσία των Σουλιωτών. Έτσι, παρά το γεγονός ότι η Ψιμούλη αναφέρεται εξαντλητικά στην αλβανοφωνία των Σουλιωτών, υπερτονίζει τη γνώση της ελληνικής από τους Σουλιώτες βασισμένη στα συμπεράσματα του Τίτου Γιοχάλα σε σχέση με το «δίγλωσσο λεξικό» του Μάρκου Μπότσαρη. Όπως έχει όμως αποδειχθεί, τα συμπεράσματα αυτά εδράζονται σε εντελώς λανθασμένη βάση." In essence Baltsiotis writes that throughout the 19th century most of the Muslim and Christian Albanian speaking population of the area spoke and understood only Albanian, a reality confirmed carefully by travellers of the day. Baltsiotis says that Psimouli has exhaustively referred to the Albanian language of the Souliots, and that the Souliots knowledge of Greek has been overemphasised by Psimouli who cites Tito Yochalas conclusion on Marko Botsaris' bilingual dictionary. Within the wider context, in sum Baltsiotis writes that such conclusions about Greek speech and the Souliots are based on a completely wrong basis. Hope it helps. Best. Resnjari ( talk) 23:32, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
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2A02:1388:414F:5860:8DA5:1CCA:4D5F:447 ( talk) 07:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC) Yes Markos Bocaris was a Greek Hero fought against Ottomans . And you say no vandalism ? You have already vandalized it 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
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07:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Markos bocaris was Greek not Albanian 79.103.211.106 ( talk) 09:21, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
This article has many errors and it seems unable for someone to edit it.Why is Wikipedia allows so many errors? Adilaugh ( talk) 17:05, 23 July 2024 (UTC)