It could do with some expansion so it can be a summary of the article
By adding his naval rank, all parts of his life are touched on other than his early life and education. Do they need to be in the lead?--
Utahredrock (
talk)
12:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
The last two paragraphs could probably be merged since they both deal with his family
While the two currently separate paragraphs could be merged, Kelly's marriage and his notable brother are very different topics. Happy to merge if you think that's better.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
12:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
This section is pretty thin. Is there anything more published on his naval career? Promotions, deployments, commands? I can't imagine a naval aviator getting to the rank of captain without doing something interesting
Agree it's thin, but I haven't been able to find much more and I've looked. Kelly was a distinguished pilot including flying in combat, but that naval service isn't what makes him notable. If more sourced information becomes apparent, I'd like to see this section expanded as well. Does the fact that it's thin now affect whether or not it's a good article? Also, what if there just wasn't much published on this phase of his life? As far as his high rank now, it seems to be as a result of his high profile and distinguished service while on loan to a civilian agency (NASA). The particulars of that arrangement don't seem to be discussed in published materials.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
12:09, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Fair enough. If there's nothing more published, there's not much we can do. It won't hold you up at GA level, but it might if you were to take it further.
Yeah, this is common for astronaut biographies; often the only source on their early life is the brief NASA biography.
Mlm42 (
talk)
17:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
What is PD? While it was published on MSNBC, the photo is from the office of Congresswoman Giffords, which is indicated in Wikicommons. Is that not sufficient? It's also available via the Gabrielle Giffords Facebook page. Though her office released it, per MSNBC, I don't see the photo on her official congressional site.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
12:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Sorry, PD=Public Domain. The photo may have been published by Giffords' office, but my understanding was that {{PD-USGov}} and related templates only applied to images taken by employees of the Federal Government, which this doesn't appear to be.
HJ Mitchell |
Penny for your thoughts? 16:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
There's a lot of weight being given to his wife's shootings. I realise it's a significant event, but it might be worth trimming some of the detail to keep it proportionate, especially given that both the shooting and his wife have articles
It could always be cut back, however, this section was written specifically from Kelly's POV using sources to tell that story. I do not believe much of what's written here is repeated in other Wiki articles, though other details of the events certainly are. As a bio on Mark Kelly, details from this significant event are important and interesting--I believe. As long as it sticks to his involvement it seems pertinent.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
12:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
I also raised concerns recently on the article's talk page regarding the number of quotations used in this section. But I don't know if this would prevent it from being a GA.
Mlm42 (
talk)
17:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
That linkfarm will need trimming—most should be incorporated into references or removed
Just curious, the term linkfarm seems loaded. I tried to be careful to not include under external links items that are in the references. A lot of these links are to videos which arguably provide unique insights into the subject--allowing Wikipedia to leverage these other medias for people interested in the subject.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
12:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
One other comment on these external links, they include material that previously was included in the article directly, under the shooting section. To reduce the length of that section I removed the material but added some external links. One example is Kelly's statement on January 10.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
13:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
{{Template:Infobox astronaut}} does not allow for the "alt" field: if you look at other astronaut pages (e.g.,
Jim Lovell,
Sally Ride,
Scott Kelly, etc.), you'll see they all use the "type" field for caption and have no "alt".
Hmm, I'm not used to that template. I'll see if I can find out how to add alt text for the infobox image; meanwhile, the others all need it—it just needs to be a short description of the image, there are tips at
WP:ALT.
I see that a source was added for the middle name (I moved it to the end of the name because it's overkill to have it in the middle), but I am not convinced that sourcing is needed for this - most biographies that I've seen do not source middle names unless there's something unusual or controversial about the fact. Similarly, birthdates are not usually sourced in my experience. Location of birth is, parents' names are, etc., but not the date. I guess it's ok to do so, but I don't think it's required.
Well it needs to be referenced somewhere per
WP:V. It's not essential it be in the lead, but it's the most logical place (imo) for it.
I agree it needs sourcing. It should be noted that NASA doesn't give his middle name anywhere on their website, for example.
Mlm42 (
talk)
17:06, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
If there is no published source does it matter if we use his initial (which is published) vs. the name? I didn't change it to Edward and it doesn't seem important to the article, though having a middle initial distinguishes him from other Mark Kellys.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
17:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Actually
MOS:QUOTE calls for no quote marks at all with block quotes, so I've removed them, replaced the workaround with the {{quote| format, and rearranged a few of the photos to allow the STS-124 quote to properly indent. Tvoz/
talk08:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Edit made. I couldn't see what you meant until I went into the edit mode. On my screen they show up the same when the article is displaying.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
22:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
OK, I think the majority of my issues have been addressed. We still have the small matter of the citation for the DOB and
alt text for the images (don't worry about the infobox image for now). I still think it might be worth trimming some of the stuff on the Tucson shooting, but I'm not going to insist on that for GA. Once those are sorted, I'll be glad to pass this.
HJ Mitchell |
Penny for your thoughts? 22:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
I added alt text to all images. Seemed to have worked on first attempts! Also added DOB to early life section. Source for DOB is in his NASA bio and reference was already there at end of paragraph.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
23:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
It could do with some expansion so it can be a summary of the article
By adding his naval rank, all parts of his life are touched on other than his early life and education. Do they need to be in the lead?--
Utahredrock (
talk)
12:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
The last two paragraphs could probably be merged since they both deal with his family
While the two currently separate paragraphs could be merged, Kelly's marriage and his notable brother are very different topics. Happy to merge if you think that's better.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
12:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
This section is pretty thin. Is there anything more published on his naval career? Promotions, deployments, commands? I can't imagine a naval aviator getting to the rank of captain without doing something interesting
Agree it's thin, but I haven't been able to find much more and I've looked. Kelly was a distinguished pilot including flying in combat, but that naval service isn't what makes him notable. If more sourced information becomes apparent, I'd like to see this section expanded as well. Does the fact that it's thin now affect whether or not it's a good article? Also, what if there just wasn't much published on this phase of his life? As far as his high rank now, it seems to be as a result of his high profile and distinguished service while on loan to a civilian agency (NASA). The particulars of that arrangement don't seem to be discussed in published materials.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
12:09, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Fair enough. If there's nothing more published, there's not much we can do. It won't hold you up at GA level, but it might if you were to take it further.
Yeah, this is common for astronaut biographies; often the only source on their early life is the brief NASA biography.
Mlm42 (
talk)
17:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
What is PD? While it was published on MSNBC, the photo is from the office of Congresswoman Giffords, which is indicated in Wikicommons. Is that not sufficient? It's also available via the Gabrielle Giffords Facebook page. Though her office released it, per MSNBC, I don't see the photo on her official congressional site.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
12:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Sorry, PD=Public Domain. The photo may have been published by Giffords' office, but my understanding was that {{PD-USGov}} and related templates only applied to images taken by employees of the Federal Government, which this doesn't appear to be.
HJ Mitchell |
Penny for your thoughts? 16:04, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
There's a lot of weight being given to his wife's shootings. I realise it's a significant event, but it might be worth trimming some of the detail to keep it proportionate, especially given that both the shooting and his wife have articles
It could always be cut back, however, this section was written specifically from Kelly's POV using sources to tell that story. I do not believe much of what's written here is repeated in other Wiki articles, though other details of the events certainly are. As a bio on Mark Kelly, details from this significant event are important and interesting--I believe. As long as it sticks to his involvement it seems pertinent.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
12:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
I also raised concerns recently on the article's talk page regarding the number of quotations used in this section. But I don't know if this would prevent it from being a GA.
Mlm42 (
talk)
17:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
That linkfarm will need trimming—most should be incorporated into references or removed
Just curious, the term linkfarm seems loaded. I tried to be careful to not include under external links items that are in the references. A lot of these links are to videos which arguably provide unique insights into the subject--allowing Wikipedia to leverage these other medias for people interested in the subject.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
12:40, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
One other comment on these external links, they include material that previously was included in the article directly, under the shooting section. To reduce the length of that section I removed the material but added some external links. One example is Kelly's statement on January 10.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
13:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
{{Template:Infobox astronaut}} does not allow for the "alt" field: if you look at other astronaut pages (e.g.,
Jim Lovell,
Sally Ride,
Scott Kelly, etc.), you'll see they all use the "type" field for caption and have no "alt".
Hmm, I'm not used to that template. I'll see if I can find out how to add alt text for the infobox image; meanwhile, the others all need it—it just needs to be a short description of the image, there are tips at
WP:ALT.
I see that a source was added for the middle name (I moved it to the end of the name because it's overkill to have it in the middle), but I am not convinced that sourcing is needed for this - most biographies that I've seen do not source middle names unless there's something unusual or controversial about the fact. Similarly, birthdates are not usually sourced in my experience. Location of birth is, parents' names are, etc., but not the date. I guess it's ok to do so, but I don't think it's required.
Well it needs to be referenced somewhere per
WP:V. It's not essential it be in the lead, but it's the most logical place (imo) for it.
I agree it needs sourcing. It should be noted that NASA doesn't give his middle name anywhere on their website, for example.
Mlm42 (
talk)
17:06, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
If there is no published source does it matter if we use his initial (which is published) vs. the name? I didn't change it to Edward and it doesn't seem important to the article, though having a middle initial distinguishes him from other Mark Kellys.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
17:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Actually
MOS:QUOTE calls for no quote marks at all with block quotes, so I've removed them, replaced the workaround with the {{quote| format, and rearranged a few of the photos to allow the STS-124 quote to properly indent. Tvoz/
talk08:48, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
Edit made. I couldn't see what you meant until I went into the edit mode. On my screen they show up the same when the article is displaying.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
22:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
OK, I think the majority of my issues have been addressed. We still have the small matter of the citation for the DOB and
alt text for the images (don't worry about the infobox image for now). I still think it might be worth trimming some of the stuff on the Tucson shooting, but I'm not going to insist on that for GA. Once those are sorted, I'll be glad to pass this.
HJ Mitchell |
Penny for your thoughts? 22:51, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply
I added alt text to all images. Seemed to have worked on first attempts! Also added DOB to early life section. Source for DOB is in his NASA bio and reference was already there at end of paragraph.--
Utahredrock (
talk)
23:53, 4 March 2011 (UTC)reply