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User:Martinevans123, if anyone wants to start discussing an agenda then the first person to question is you. First you trolled me on the Elvis Presley talkpage and now you are doing the exact same here by attempting to create a red herring by claiming that people may assume I have a "small agenda" because I wish to include a paragraph about Thatcher's early political development which in essence was about reversing the socialist state, her political career was driven by Hayek's ideas and the idea of getting rid of socialism altogether. How is this not an improvement? Thatcher is one of the most famous anti-socialists in the world. However, I have also found this may be of interest, when she was asked to define socialism in 1978 Campbell on p.95 wrote:
she was at a loss to reply. What in fact she meant was Government support for inefficient industries, punitive taxation, regulation of the labour market, price controls – everything that interfered with the functioning of the free economy.
Thus, we have three central points to possibly focus on to include in the article:
Perhaps the paragraph could be short and sweet (no quotes) which includes all of the four basic points.
What does everyone think?-- James Joseph P. Smith ( talk) 16:29, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
The phrase " totally eliminate socialism" seems very clumsy. I'd avoid adding such a claim unless it could be sourced to a quote from a respected RS. Otherwise it looks a lot like WP:SYNTH, doesn't it?. Do you still defend your suggested addition? 22:32, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
Is there any reason for the image that is described as, "Thatcher in New Zealand with Māori children, 1976" to be included in the article? New Zealand is mentioned nowhere else in the article and I'm sure a more appropriate image could be used for the Leader of the Opposition: 1975–1979 section.-- James Joseph P. Smith ( talk) 22:13, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry but there is a major failure of English comprehension going on here. When it was reported in 2011 that Baroness Thatcher's "office in the House of Lords" had been closed, all that meant was that Baroness Thatcher no longer had a desk and staff based at the House of Lords to support her work in that House. No member of the House of Lords has to have any actual base there in order to be a member: the Lords is a 'part-time' House whose members come and go and might be absent for long periods. It has nothing to do with her membership of the House, which continued until her death even if she did not actually attend after July 2010. Sam Blacketer ( talk) 20:59, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
I think it will be appropriate to use the original form used in most of the articles, like William Whitelaw, 1st Viscount Whitelaw or William Hague, being a member is taking an office. We should find the official date of ennoblement and date of leaving the House of Lords (resignation, death, etc.). Just stating an ennoblement date doesn't look proper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PhDoctor ( talk • contribs) 10:49, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
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Dear @ Neveselbert, how are you! I would like to kindly request a resolve of dispute here.
You reverted my saying "Not helpful". I believe adding link to "Baroness" and nickname "the Iron lady" in the first sentence helps more people understand them. Please let me know what you think. Please take no offense in I revert your revert. I am open to be convinced. Thank you! Xinbenlv ( talk) 20:12, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Links should not be placed in the boldface reiteration of the title in the opening sentence of a lead. Her nickname is mentioned later in the same paragraph and there is no need whatsoever to include it twice. Your edits weren't helpful and were just unnecessary.-- Neve~ selbert: 20:17, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
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"She was the longest-serving British prime minister of the 20th century and the first woman."
The sentence seems incomplete. I suggest changing it to "... the first woman to hold that office", or whatever you see fit. 86.191.155.51 ( talk) 01:36, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I understood that M.Thatcher did a B.Sc. as a research degree (in Chemistry), which I believe it was at the time, and that her first degree was a B.A. (as virtually all first degrees were then at Oxbridge and Dublin (TCD), and possibly elsewhere). Could someone please check this about her B.Sc. and B.A., I think it's in one of the biographies. Similarly other Bachelor's degrees at Oxbridge are (still, I think) actually postgraduate degrees, for example the B.Litt., and the B.C.L. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donn300 ( talk • contribs) 20:03, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Did she really as claimed in https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/16/brexit-paranoid-fantasy-fintan-otoole -- Palosirkka ( talk) 07:17, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
"The lady's not for turning" was a pun upon the title of Christopher Fry's play: The Lady's Not for Burning — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.4.246.90 ( talk) 08:16, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
...the British wing of the Margaret Thatcher Foundation was dissolved in 2005 due to financial difficulties.
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Add mention of Section 28 and a general discussion of Thatcher's attitude towards gay rights. Eveolivia97 ( talk) 14:21, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
Add mention of Section 28Talk:Jill Knight is that way. Neveselbert ( talk · contribs · email) 21:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
I am so confused about the reason why She known as iron lady,thank you Nath on the way ( talk) 11:27, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
The format of the lead image should be JPEG, not PNG, per this message. The JPEG version of Margaret Thatcher's portrait is sharper and it has good exposure value. -- Wow ( talk) 01:56, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
The passage about this chronologically wrong. It mentions first Thatcher's effort to torpedo the partial reunification of Germany and ends with her approving the opening of the wall. But these event came in the opposite order. First the wall was opened and only after that event the eminent German Chancellor Kohl had to overcome the resistance of Mitterrand and the entrenched Germano-phobic ennemity of Thatcher. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:5CE2:3400:F40A:C5A2:C42:F914 ( talk) 07:34, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Maggie (politician). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Neveselbert ( talk · contribs · email) 06:21, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
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I request to change the spelling and grammar in the article as I have noticed a few reading through. TacoCatSupreme ( talk) 11:53, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
As a non-native speaker, I am only marginally familiar with the issue of gender neutrality in English. I wonder if there is a reason why Thatcher is defined as a stateswoman in the lead but described as a spokesman afterwards. To me, this seems like an odd mix of old and new practices. Surtsicna ( talk) 15:49, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
Per WP:JOBTITLES — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mechanical Keyboarder ( talk • contribs) 21:32, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
The article says she was given a Bachelor of Science degree by Oxford Univeristy. But Oxford did not award Bachelor of Science degrees at that time. All first degrees in Arts and Sciences are Bachelor of Arts. I fear making a change to this article but someone should correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gobanian ( talk • contribs) 06:38, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
Title of subsection is misleading as it suggests further education beyond undergraduate. 'Early Career: 1947-1951' would be more appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.200.183.194 ( talk) 11:25, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
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Between the recent revelations about Peter Morrison (see https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/abuse-inquiry-mp-peter-morrison-backed-by-thatcher-despite-claims-against-him-3jbnw9095) and the documented relationship with Jimmy Savile should we not add something about how the subject of this page repeatedly covered up Child Sex Abuse? 83.218.151.178 ( talk) 09:54, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Neveselbert:, what issue is there with the added details to the lead? The existing lead splits legacy between the introductory paragraph and the fourth paragraph and ignores the majority of her early life, career and early political career. Alex ( talk) 18:16, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Margaret Hilda Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher, LG, OM, DStJ, PC, FRS, HonFRSC ( née Roberts; 13 October 1925 – 8 April 2013) was a British stateswoman and politician who served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1979 to 1990 and Leader of the Conservative Party from 1975 to 1990.
The daughter of a grocer, Thatcher was born in Grantham and educated at the grammar school Kesteven and Grantham Girls' School after receiving a scholarship. She then studied chemistry at Somerville College, Oxford and worked briefly as a research chemist before qualifying for the bar and becoming a barrister specialising in taxation. After unsuccessfully contesting Dartford in 1950 and 1951, she was elected Member of Parliament for Finchley at the 1959 general election. She joined Edward Heath's Shadow Cabinet as Shadow Education and Science Secretary and he later appointed her as Secretary of State for Education and Science in his 1970–74 government. When the Conservative Party returned to Opposition in 1974, Heath made her Shadow Environment Secretary. In 1975, she defeated Heath in the Conservative Party leadership election to become Leader of the Opposition, the first woman to lead a major political party in the United Kingdom.
On becoming Prime Minister after winning the 1979 general election, Thatcher introduced a series of economic policies intended to reverse high unemployment and Britain's struggles in the wake of the Winter of Discontent and an ongoing recession. [nb 1] Her political philosophy and economic policies emphasised deregulation (particularly of the financial sector), flexible labour markets, the privatisation of state-owned companies and reducing the power and influence of trade unions. Her popularity in her first years in office waned amid recession and rising unemployment, until victory in the 1982 Falklands War and the recovering economy brought a resurgence of support, resulting in her landslide re-election in 1983. She survived an assassination attempt by the Provisional IRA in the 1984 Brighton hotel bombing and achieved a political victory against the National Union of Mineworkers in the 1984–85 miners' strike. She was re-elected for a third term with another landslide in 1987, but her subsequent support for the Community Charge (dubbed the "poll tax") was widely unpopular and her increasingly Eurosceptic views on the European Community were not shared by others in her Cabinet. She resigned as prime minister and party leader in November 1990, after Michael Heseltine launched a challenge to her leadership. [nb 2] After retiring from the Commons in 1992, she was given a life peerage as Baroness Thatcher, of Kesteven in the County of Lincolnshire, which entitled her to sit in the House of Lords. In 2013, she died of a stroke at the Ritz Hotel in London, at the age of 87.
Thatcher was the longest-serving prime minister of the 20th century and the first woman to hold that office. A Soviet journalist dubbed her the "Iron Lady", a nickname that became associated with her uncompromising politics and leadership style. Although a controversial figure in British political culture, she is nonetheless viewed favourably in historical rankings of prime ministers. Her tenure constituted a realignment towards neoliberal policies in the United Kingdom and debate over the complicated legacy of her politics, known as Thatcherism, persists into the 21st century.
References
- ^ In her foreword to the Conservative manifesto of 1979, she wrote of "a feeling of helplessness, that we are a once great nation that has somehow fallen behind". [1]
- ^ Her fall has been characterised as "a rare coup d'état at the top of the British politics: the first since Lloyd George sawed Asquith off at the knees in 1916." [2]
References
- ^ "1979 Conservative Party General Election Manifesto". PoliticalStuff.co.uk. Retrieved 28 July 2009.
- ^ Heffer, Simon (29 October 2019). "The rats and cowards who brought down a Titan". The Critic Magazine. Retrieved 18 July 2020.
Margaret Thatcher was well known for her prejudice against Germans. This became all too apparent during the question of German reunification in 1990. British historian John Campbell in his book Margaret Thatcher Volume Two: The Iron Lady wrote on page 634:
Yet forty years later she was still consumed by an ‘atavistic fear of Germany and [a] suspicion of the German people qua people.’ Equally curious is the fact that her animus was reinforced by Charles Powell. Sixteen years younger, a sophisticated former diplomat with an Italian wife, Powell should not have been prey to the same prejudice, but he was - as was embarrassingly revealed when Mrs Thatcher held one of her Chequers seminars on the subject of Germany in March 1990, attended by a clutch of her favourite British historians – Lord Dacre (Hugh Trevor-Roper), Norman Stone, George Urban and Timothy Garton-Ash, plus two distinguished Americans, Gordon Craig and Fritz Stern. Powell wrote an introductory paper which was subsequently leaked to the Independent on Sunday. Maybe he was just trying to please his mistress; but it was a shocking compendium of what Urban called ‘saloon bar clichés‘ about the German character, including ‘angst, aggressiveness, assertiveness, bullying, egotism, inferiority complex [and] sentimentality’. The historians were appalled to find Mrs Thatcher apparently unaware of the Germans’ crippling sense of guilt or the efforts that the postwar generation had been making for thirty years to expunge the shame of their fathers. In her view they had not changed and could not change. ‘I do not believe in collective guilt,’ she wrote in her memoirs. ‘But I do believe in national character.’ When Dacre reminded her that NATO had always supported German reunification - ‘We should rejoice, because we’ve won’ - she vehemently disagreed. When Urban argued that a United Germany would help restore the whole of Central Europe, she retorted angrily, ‘What you’re saying is “suck up to rich uncle, so that he is nice to you”. No, no.’
Now, of course the whole quote does not need to be used, but I do believe that her views on the German people should be mentioned.-- LeftiePete ( talk) 11:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Neveselbert: Should the "Shadowing" parameter not be removed from the infobox per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, which details how an infobox should be concise? Alex ( talk) 16:57, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
|module2 = {{Collapsed infobox section begin |[[Shadow Cabinet]] offices
|titlestyle=border:1px dashed lightgrey; |cont=yes}}{{Infobox officeholder |embed=yes
|office5 = [[Shadow Secretary of State for the Environment]]
|term_start5 = 5 March 1974
|term_end5 = 11 February 1975
|leader5 = Edward Heath
|1blankname5 = [[wikt:shadow minister|Shadowing]]
|1namedata5 = [[Anthony Crosland]]
|predecessor5 = Anthony Crosland
|successor5 = [[Timothy Raison]]
|office6 = [[Shadow Secretary of State for Education and Science]]
|term_start6 = 10 January 1967
|term_end6 = 20 June 1970
|leader6 = Edward Heath
|1blankname6 = Shadowing
|1namedata6 = {{Unbulleted list
|[[Anthony Crosland]]
|[[Patrick Gordon Walker]]
|[[Edward Short, Baron Glenamara|Edward Short]]}}
|predecessor6 = [[Richard Crossman]]
|successor6 = Edward Short{{Collapsed infobox section end}}}}
{{
Infobox officeholder}}
that itself has 17 parameters, of which one (|embed=yes
) is isolated, and the rest fall into two groups of eight. Is the intention to remove the two groups in their entirety, in which case retaining the other code is pointless; or simply to remove the |1blankname5=[[wikt:shadow minister|Shadowing]]
and |1blankname6=Shadowing
parameters, which would put some of the rest out of context? --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk) 08:55, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
|1blankname5=[[wikt:shadow minister|Shadowing]]
and |1blankname6=Shadowing
parameters. Again, this would be per my interpretation of
WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE.
Alex (
talk) 09:18, 13 December 2020 (UTC)First sentence, second paragraph: "Thatcher spent her childhood in Grantham, where her father owned ..."
Should "Thatcher" be replaced with "Roberts" to be consistent with the other paragraphs in that section? i.e.: "Roberts spent her childhood in Grantham, where her father owned ..."
I thought it better to ask here first rather than just edit it (and annoy many people in the process!) Best regards, Gricharduk ( talk) 09:20, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
I recently added that Thatcher was the Chancellor of William & Mary in her infobox, but it was reverted by @ Neveselbert:, who directed me to the talk page. It seems to me that it should be included in the infobox, as most other chancellors include it in theirs. -- Politicsfan4 ( talk) 02:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Two experienced editors have a dispute on this page. Simply reverting posts is not helpful. One problem is that the controversial edit is large and encompasses several areas. Some points are no-brainers, such as making 'Monarch Queen Elizabeth' a link, but others need validation. I suggest that we put in the easy ones and then discuss the other points here and insert those for which there is consensus. OrewaTel ( talk) 22:44, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
An edit about Thatcher's resignation by Politicsnerd123 had been reverted. Thatcher resigned 22 November from both leadership of the Conservative Party and Prime Minister. The resignation was to take effect when a successor was appointed.John Major became Tory leader 27 November and was appointed Prime Minister by the Queen the following day. This means that the reverted edit was actually correct and I am re-instating it with a citation. OrewaTel ( talk) 03:11, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
The noun stateswoman is defined as a: a skilled, experienced, and respected female political leader or figure.
Although Baroness Thatcher was both a skilled and experienced politician, she is also a highly divisive political figure in British history who is both loved and loathed. Since she does not garner respect from the vast majority of the British population, it is in my opinion that stateswoman isn’t the correct term in this instance and should instead be replaced with politician. TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 16:49, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
There are countless reliable sources that support negative public opinion toward Baroness Thatcher. I have included some below although I am happy to find more if that would help:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-46611049
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/9982143/Margaret-Thatcher-why-is-she-still-so-demonised.html TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 17:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
The by-line in the Telegraph article sums up my point well: “It’s impossible to think of any other politician arousing such a degree of public hated” [1] TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 17:09, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
References
I have changed the lead to "politician" over "stateswoman" again. One editor has reverted this several times, which IMO is incorrect for a few reasons:
You have not cited any reliable secondary sources which state, in neutral terms, that she was a stateswoman.see "Thatcher, Margaret". Lexico UK English Dictionary. Oxford University Press. n.d. ‑‑ Neveselbert ( talk · contribs · email) 03:46, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Of note, according to wikipedia Thatcher is the only statesman prime minister of the UK since Stanley Baldwin.
82.5.42.19 (
talk) 12:34, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
It is stated that, "...while also serving as chancellor of the private University of Buckingham from 1992 to 1998,[293][294] a university she had formally opened in 1976 as the then education secretary..." That cannot be correct - in 1976 Mrs T was Leader of the Opposition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.200.235.244 ( talk • contribs) 20:41, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
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Can a module be included within the infobox detailing Thatcher's scientific career, like on the right 81.147.76.243 ( talk) 17:05, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
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can i please edit her date of death for i couple minutes so margaret thatcher isnt dead Ineedalawyer ( talk) 01:29, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
I changed the sub-heading from Falklands to South Atlantic, which OrewaTel then reverted, claiming it to be the wrong name, although I am not sure what this means. I think it is more accurate to say the crisis was in the South Atlantic rather than the Falklands. The whole section needs a tidy but I have left it as is for now. Thoughts? Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 20:56, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
The Falklands invasion was only part of a wider problem with Argentina, admittedly by far the most obvious. However, this Argentine military problem had begun much earlier such as with Argentine forces on the Antarctic peninsular in 1952. Argentina had established a base on the South Sandwich islands in 1976 that had led the UK to send down a small naval force. And then there was the landing on South Georgia in March 1982 that also led the UK to send marines from the Falklands and warships down to the south atlantic, all before the 2 April invasion of the Falklands. Argenine sabre rattling still continues in an around the Antarctica and the South atlantic, large parts of which it claims as its sovereign territory, of which the Falklands are only a part. I know most of the media coverage was focussed on the Falklands War, but there was, and still is, more to it than just the 2 April invasion of the Falkland Islands. That is why I think 'Crisis in the South Atlantic' is a better heading. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 10:12, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
There are also articles on the Invasion of South Georgia and Operation Paraquet. Lord Carrington resigned because of that government's mishandling of messages being sent to Argenina, which involved the Falklands and the dependencies not just the Falklands themselves. The ship Endurance, that was being withdrawn, was the UK presence in the South Atlantic, not just for the Falklands, even though Stanley was its base. The first military action in 1982 was on South Georgia, not the Falklands, which resulted in the notable announcement outside number 10. Although I am not trying to minimise the importance and later media coverage of the Falkland Islands, I think there is a case now, after forty years, in acknowledging the bigger picture. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 21:03, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
In a talk point I raised during 2013, now archived in Archive 22, I raised a question about activities of the then Margaret Roberts who was criticised in much later press correspondence for not having served or done ancillary war work (and implicitly being hypocritical about her enthusiasm for defence matters), although of age to in WWII, while others postponed or put studies on hold to volunteer or be drafted. I have been rereading a booklet Oxford's Famous Faces by John Dougill, published 1987, while she was PM, which mentions that while studying she 'worked twice a week in the forces canteen' but no indication where it was and what organisation ran it. I have seen no mention of it in authorised biographies published since that. If more detail could be found it would be interesting to mention. Dougill acknowledges her study of chemistry was encouraged as a way of nurturing potential scientific recruits to the munitions industry which could well have been employing her had the war not outlasted her university course. Cloptonson ( talk) 07:29, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
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Margaret Thatcher | |
---|---|
Leader of the Conservative Party | |
In office 11 February 1975 – 28 November 1990 | |
Deputy | The Viscount Whitelaw |
Chairman |
The Lord Thorneycroft Cecil Parkinson John Gummer Norman Tebbit Peter Brooke Kenneth Baker |
Preceded by | Edward Heath |
Succeeded by | John Major |
Can Chairmen of the Conservative Party who served under Thatcher be listed in her infobox, as they are with most Leaders of the Labour Party, and many Leaders of the Conservatives? 81.157.224.127 ( talk) 09:40, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
We have had several edits that tried to add the word, stateswoman. This has been rejected by several editors. The main reasons were:
OrewaTel ( talk) 12:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
The description of "stateswoman" is one that can have been afforded to few, if any, other British politicians on their death.This, I believe, should be noted somewhere in the article. ‑‑ Neveselbert ( talk · contribs · email) 18:36, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
The pullquotes in this article violate
MOS:PULLQUOTE (emphasis mine): Pull quotes do not belong in Wikipedia articles. These are the news and magazine style of "pulling" material already in the article to reuse it in attention-grabbing decorative quotations. This unencyclopedic approach is a form of editorializing, produces out-of-context and undue emphasis, and may lead the reader to conclusions not supported in the material.
I recently removed 3 pullquotes from the article in accordance with MOS:PULLQUOTE, but it was reverted and asked I bring the change to Talk. Generally at Wikipedia, consensus isn't required to make an article conform to MOS (while still respecting existing style, etc.). I intend on re-removing the pullquotes from the article in the future, but I will initiate the conversation about it here as requested. — sbb ( talk) 15:49, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
Why are the words "is a British politician" being excluded from the intro? It's in the intro of the other recent British prime ministers bios. What makes Maggie different? GoodDay ( talk) 15:35, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
British prime minister. Her role as a politician is implied from that description but can also be easily inferred from the final sentence of the same paragraph, which describes her as having
implemented policies, obviously making her a politician. Also, only BLP bios use
is a British politician, where using the past tense is discouraged per MOS:BLPTENSE. Personally, I would like us to introduce her once again with
was a British stateswoman, but unfortunately that description has been challenged by several editors (see § Stateswoman?). ‑‑ Neveselbert ( talk · contribs · email) 17:52, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
American presidentis informal;
US presidentis the preferred form. Ironically it seems to be the other way round in Britain, where
UK prime ministeris considered less preferable to
British prime minister. ‑‑ Neveselbert ( talk · contribs · email) 19:47, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
Although there’s nothing wrong with the source at the moment that is used as a reference for Thatcher’s distant Irish ancestry, I believe there’s a better source that also includes more of her ancestry. The source is The Ancestry of Baroness Thatcher. I propose to either replace the other source (a newspaper article) or include the source as well.-- FriendlyFerret9854 ( talk) 12:00, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
"Thatcher" should redirect to the Margaret Thatcher article. It covers all of the guidelines and requirements for a direct.-- FriendlyFerret9854 ( talk) 20:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Thatcher which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 21:48, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
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Archive 20 | ← | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 |
User:Martinevans123, if anyone wants to start discussing an agenda then the first person to question is you. First you trolled me on the Elvis Presley talkpage and now you are doing the exact same here by attempting to create a red herring by claiming that people may assume I have a "small agenda" because I wish to include a paragraph about Thatcher's early political development which in essence was about reversing the socialist state, her political career was driven by Hayek's ideas and the idea of getting rid of socialism altogether. How is this not an improvement? Thatcher is one of the most famous anti-socialists in the world. However, I have also found this may be of interest, when she was asked to define socialism in 1978 Campbell on p.95 wrote:
she was at a loss to reply. What in fact she meant was Government support for inefficient industries, punitive taxation, regulation of the labour market, price controls – everything that interfered with the functioning of the free economy.
Thus, we have three central points to possibly focus on to include in the article:
Perhaps the paragraph could be short and sweet (no quotes) which includes all of the four basic points.
What does everyone think?-- James Joseph P. Smith ( talk) 16:29, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
The phrase " totally eliminate socialism" seems very clumsy. I'd avoid adding such a claim unless it could be sourced to a quote from a respected RS. Otherwise it looks a lot like WP:SYNTH, doesn't it?. Do you still defend your suggested addition? 22:32, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
Is there any reason for the image that is described as, "Thatcher in New Zealand with Māori children, 1976" to be included in the article? New Zealand is mentioned nowhere else in the article and I'm sure a more appropriate image could be used for the Leader of the Opposition: 1975–1979 section.-- James Joseph P. Smith ( talk) 22:13, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry but there is a major failure of English comprehension going on here. When it was reported in 2011 that Baroness Thatcher's "office in the House of Lords" had been closed, all that meant was that Baroness Thatcher no longer had a desk and staff based at the House of Lords to support her work in that House. No member of the House of Lords has to have any actual base there in order to be a member: the Lords is a 'part-time' House whose members come and go and might be absent for long periods. It has nothing to do with her membership of the House, which continued until her death even if she did not actually attend after July 2010. Sam Blacketer ( talk) 20:59, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
I think it will be appropriate to use the original form used in most of the articles, like William Whitelaw, 1st Viscount Whitelaw or William Hague, being a member is taking an office. We should find the official date of ennoblement and date of leaving the House of Lords (resignation, death, etc.). Just stating an ennoblement date doesn't look proper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PhDoctor ( talk • contribs) 10:49, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:00, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Dear @ Neveselbert, how are you! I would like to kindly request a resolve of dispute here.
You reverted my saying "Not helpful". I believe adding link to "Baroness" and nickname "the Iron lady" in the first sentence helps more people understand them. Please let me know what you think. Please take no offense in I revert your revert. I am open to be convinced. Thank you! Xinbenlv ( talk) 20:12, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
Links should not be placed in the boldface reiteration of the title in the opening sentence of a lead. Her nickname is mentioned later in the same paragraph and there is no need whatsoever to include it twice. Your edits weren't helpful and were just unnecessary.-- Neve~ selbert: 20:17, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
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"She was the longest-serving British prime minister of the 20th century and the first woman."
The sentence seems incomplete. I suggest changing it to "... the first woman to hold that office", or whatever you see fit. 86.191.155.51 ( talk) 01:36, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I understood that M.Thatcher did a B.Sc. as a research degree (in Chemistry), which I believe it was at the time, and that her first degree was a B.A. (as virtually all first degrees were then at Oxbridge and Dublin (TCD), and possibly elsewhere). Could someone please check this about her B.Sc. and B.A., I think it's in one of the biographies. Similarly other Bachelor's degrees at Oxbridge are (still, I think) actually postgraduate degrees, for example the B.Litt., and the B.C.L. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donn300 ( talk • contribs) 20:03, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Did she really as claimed in https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/16/brexit-paranoid-fantasy-fintan-otoole -- Palosirkka ( talk) 07:17, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
"The lady's not for turning" was a pun upon the title of Christopher Fry's play: The Lady's Not for Burning — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.4.246.90 ( talk) 08:16, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
...the British wing of the Margaret Thatcher Foundation was dissolved in 2005 due to financial difficulties.
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Add mention of Section 28 and a general discussion of Thatcher's attitude towards gay rights. Eveolivia97 ( talk) 14:21, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
Add mention of Section 28Talk:Jill Knight is that way. Neveselbert ( talk · contribs · email) 21:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
I am so confused about the reason why She known as iron lady,thank you Nath on the way ( talk) 11:27, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
The format of the lead image should be JPEG, not PNG, per this message. The JPEG version of Margaret Thatcher's portrait is sharper and it has good exposure value. -- Wow ( talk) 01:56, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
The passage about this chronologically wrong. It mentions first Thatcher's effort to torpedo the partial reunification of Germany and ends with her approving the opening of the wall. But these event came in the opposite order. First the wall was opened and only after that event the eminent German Chancellor Kohl had to overcome the resistance of Mitterrand and the entrenched Germano-phobic ennemity of Thatcher. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:5CE2:3400:F40A:C5A2:C42:F914 ( talk) 07:34, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Maggie (politician). Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Neveselbert ( talk · contribs · email) 06:21, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
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I request to change the spelling and grammar in the article as I have noticed a few reading through. TacoCatSupreme ( talk) 11:53, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
As a non-native speaker, I am only marginally familiar with the issue of gender neutrality in English. I wonder if there is a reason why Thatcher is defined as a stateswoman in the lead but described as a spokesman afterwards. To me, this seems like an odd mix of old and new practices. Surtsicna ( talk) 15:49, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
Per WP:JOBTITLES — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mechanical Keyboarder ( talk • contribs) 21:32, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
The article says she was given a Bachelor of Science degree by Oxford Univeristy. But Oxford did not award Bachelor of Science degrees at that time. All first degrees in Arts and Sciences are Bachelor of Arts. I fear making a change to this article but someone should correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gobanian ( talk • contribs) 06:38, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
Title of subsection is misleading as it suggests further education beyond undergraduate. 'Early Career: 1947-1951' would be more appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.200.183.194 ( talk) 11:25, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 09:53, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Between the recent revelations about Peter Morrison (see https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/abuse-inquiry-mp-peter-morrison-backed-by-thatcher-despite-claims-against-him-3jbnw9095) and the documented relationship with Jimmy Savile should we not add something about how the subject of this page repeatedly covered up Child Sex Abuse? 83.218.151.178 ( talk) 09:54, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
@ Neveselbert:, what issue is there with the added details to the lead? The existing lead splits legacy between the introductory paragraph and the fourth paragraph and ignores the majority of her early life, career and early political career. Alex ( talk) 18:16, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Margaret Hilda Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher, LG, OM, DStJ, PC, FRS, HonFRSC ( née Roberts; 13 October 1925 – 8 April 2013) was a British stateswoman and politician who served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1979 to 1990 and Leader of the Conservative Party from 1975 to 1990.
The daughter of a grocer, Thatcher was born in Grantham and educated at the grammar school Kesteven and Grantham Girls' School after receiving a scholarship. She then studied chemistry at Somerville College, Oxford and worked briefly as a research chemist before qualifying for the bar and becoming a barrister specialising in taxation. After unsuccessfully contesting Dartford in 1950 and 1951, she was elected Member of Parliament for Finchley at the 1959 general election. She joined Edward Heath's Shadow Cabinet as Shadow Education and Science Secretary and he later appointed her as Secretary of State for Education and Science in his 1970–74 government. When the Conservative Party returned to Opposition in 1974, Heath made her Shadow Environment Secretary. In 1975, she defeated Heath in the Conservative Party leadership election to become Leader of the Opposition, the first woman to lead a major political party in the United Kingdom.
On becoming Prime Minister after winning the 1979 general election, Thatcher introduced a series of economic policies intended to reverse high unemployment and Britain's struggles in the wake of the Winter of Discontent and an ongoing recession. [nb 1] Her political philosophy and economic policies emphasised deregulation (particularly of the financial sector), flexible labour markets, the privatisation of state-owned companies and reducing the power and influence of trade unions. Her popularity in her first years in office waned amid recession and rising unemployment, until victory in the 1982 Falklands War and the recovering economy brought a resurgence of support, resulting in her landslide re-election in 1983. She survived an assassination attempt by the Provisional IRA in the 1984 Brighton hotel bombing and achieved a political victory against the National Union of Mineworkers in the 1984–85 miners' strike. She was re-elected for a third term with another landslide in 1987, but her subsequent support for the Community Charge (dubbed the "poll tax") was widely unpopular and her increasingly Eurosceptic views on the European Community were not shared by others in her Cabinet. She resigned as prime minister and party leader in November 1990, after Michael Heseltine launched a challenge to her leadership. [nb 2] After retiring from the Commons in 1992, she was given a life peerage as Baroness Thatcher, of Kesteven in the County of Lincolnshire, which entitled her to sit in the House of Lords. In 2013, she died of a stroke at the Ritz Hotel in London, at the age of 87.
Thatcher was the longest-serving prime minister of the 20th century and the first woman to hold that office. A Soviet journalist dubbed her the "Iron Lady", a nickname that became associated with her uncompromising politics and leadership style. Although a controversial figure in British political culture, she is nonetheless viewed favourably in historical rankings of prime ministers. Her tenure constituted a realignment towards neoliberal policies in the United Kingdom and debate over the complicated legacy of her politics, known as Thatcherism, persists into the 21st century.
References
- ^ In her foreword to the Conservative manifesto of 1979, she wrote of "a feeling of helplessness, that we are a once great nation that has somehow fallen behind". [1]
- ^ Her fall has been characterised as "a rare coup d'état at the top of the British politics: the first since Lloyd George sawed Asquith off at the knees in 1916." [2]
References
- ^ "1979 Conservative Party General Election Manifesto". PoliticalStuff.co.uk. Retrieved 28 July 2009.
- ^ Heffer, Simon (29 October 2019). "The rats and cowards who brought down a Titan". The Critic Magazine. Retrieved 18 July 2020.
Margaret Thatcher was well known for her prejudice against Germans. This became all too apparent during the question of German reunification in 1990. British historian John Campbell in his book Margaret Thatcher Volume Two: The Iron Lady wrote on page 634:
Yet forty years later she was still consumed by an ‘atavistic fear of Germany and [a] suspicion of the German people qua people.’ Equally curious is the fact that her animus was reinforced by Charles Powell. Sixteen years younger, a sophisticated former diplomat with an Italian wife, Powell should not have been prey to the same prejudice, but he was - as was embarrassingly revealed when Mrs Thatcher held one of her Chequers seminars on the subject of Germany in March 1990, attended by a clutch of her favourite British historians – Lord Dacre (Hugh Trevor-Roper), Norman Stone, George Urban and Timothy Garton-Ash, plus two distinguished Americans, Gordon Craig and Fritz Stern. Powell wrote an introductory paper which was subsequently leaked to the Independent on Sunday. Maybe he was just trying to please his mistress; but it was a shocking compendium of what Urban called ‘saloon bar clichés‘ about the German character, including ‘angst, aggressiveness, assertiveness, bullying, egotism, inferiority complex [and] sentimentality’. The historians were appalled to find Mrs Thatcher apparently unaware of the Germans’ crippling sense of guilt or the efforts that the postwar generation had been making for thirty years to expunge the shame of their fathers. In her view they had not changed and could not change. ‘I do not believe in collective guilt,’ she wrote in her memoirs. ‘But I do believe in national character.’ When Dacre reminded her that NATO had always supported German reunification - ‘We should rejoice, because we’ve won’ - she vehemently disagreed. When Urban argued that a United Germany would help restore the whole of Central Europe, she retorted angrily, ‘What you’re saying is “suck up to rich uncle, so that he is nice to you”. No, no.’
Now, of course the whole quote does not need to be used, but I do believe that her views on the German people should be mentioned.-- LeftiePete ( talk) 11:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Neveselbert: Should the "Shadowing" parameter not be removed from the infobox per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, which details how an infobox should be concise? Alex ( talk) 16:57, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
|module2 = {{Collapsed infobox section begin |[[Shadow Cabinet]] offices
|titlestyle=border:1px dashed lightgrey; |cont=yes}}{{Infobox officeholder |embed=yes
|office5 = [[Shadow Secretary of State for the Environment]]
|term_start5 = 5 March 1974
|term_end5 = 11 February 1975
|leader5 = Edward Heath
|1blankname5 = [[wikt:shadow minister|Shadowing]]
|1namedata5 = [[Anthony Crosland]]
|predecessor5 = Anthony Crosland
|successor5 = [[Timothy Raison]]
|office6 = [[Shadow Secretary of State for Education and Science]]
|term_start6 = 10 January 1967
|term_end6 = 20 June 1970
|leader6 = Edward Heath
|1blankname6 = Shadowing
|1namedata6 = {{Unbulleted list
|[[Anthony Crosland]]
|[[Patrick Gordon Walker]]
|[[Edward Short, Baron Glenamara|Edward Short]]}}
|predecessor6 = [[Richard Crossman]]
|successor6 = Edward Short{{Collapsed infobox section end}}}}
{{
Infobox officeholder}}
that itself has 17 parameters, of which one (|embed=yes
) is isolated, and the rest fall into two groups of eight. Is the intention to remove the two groups in their entirety, in which case retaining the other code is pointless; or simply to remove the |1blankname5=[[wikt:shadow minister|Shadowing]]
and |1blankname6=Shadowing
parameters, which would put some of the rest out of context? --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk) 08:55, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
|1blankname5=[[wikt:shadow minister|Shadowing]]
and |1blankname6=Shadowing
parameters. Again, this would be per my interpretation of
WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE.
Alex (
talk) 09:18, 13 December 2020 (UTC)First sentence, second paragraph: "Thatcher spent her childhood in Grantham, where her father owned ..."
Should "Thatcher" be replaced with "Roberts" to be consistent with the other paragraphs in that section? i.e.: "Roberts spent her childhood in Grantham, where her father owned ..."
I thought it better to ask here first rather than just edit it (and annoy many people in the process!) Best regards, Gricharduk ( talk) 09:20, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
I recently added that Thatcher was the Chancellor of William & Mary in her infobox, but it was reverted by @ Neveselbert:, who directed me to the talk page. It seems to me that it should be included in the infobox, as most other chancellors include it in theirs. -- Politicsfan4 ( talk) 02:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Two experienced editors have a dispute on this page. Simply reverting posts is not helpful. One problem is that the controversial edit is large and encompasses several areas. Some points are no-brainers, such as making 'Monarch Queen Elizabeth' a link, but others need validation. I suggest that we put in the easy ones and then discuss the other points here and insert those for which there is consensus. OrewaTel ( talk) 22:44, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
An edit about Thatcher's resignation by Politicsnerd123 had been reverted. Thatcher resigned 22 November from both leadership of the Conservative Party and Prime Minister. The resignation was to take effect when a successor was appointed.John Major became Tory leader 27 November and was appointed Prime Minister by the Queen the following day. This means that the reverted edit was actually correct and I am re-instating it with a citation. OrewaTel ( talk) 03:11, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
The noun stateswoman is defined as a: a skilled, experienced, and respected female political leader or figure.
Although Baroness Thatcher was both a skilled and experienced politician, she is also a highly divisive political figure in British history who is both loved and loathed. Since she does not garner respect from the vast majority of the British population, it is in my opinion that stateswoman isn’t the correct term in this instance and should instead be replaced with politician. TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 16:49, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
There are countless reliable sources that support negative public opinion toward Baroness Thatcher. I have included some below although I am happy to find more if that would help:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-46611049
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/9982143/Margaret-Thatcher-why-is-she-still-so-demonised.html TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 17:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
The by-line in the Telegraph article sums up my point well: “It’s impossible to think of any other politician arousing such a degree of public hated” [1] TobiasRagg2001 ( talk) 17:09, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
References
I have changed the lead to "politician" over "stateswoman" again. One editor has reverted this several times, which IMO is incorrect for a few reasons:
You have not cited any reliable secondary sources which state, in neutral terms, that she was a stateswoman.see "Thatcher, Margaret". Lexico UK English Dictionary. Oxford University Press. n.d. ‑‑ Neveselbert ( talk · contribs · email) 03:46, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Of note, according to wikipedia Thatcher is the only statesman prime minister of the UK since Stanley Baldwin.
82.5.42.19 (
talk) 12:34, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
It is stated that, "...while also serving as chancellor of the private University of Buckingham from 1992 to 1998,[293][294] a university she had formally opened in 1976 as the then education secretary..." That cannot be correct - in 1976 Mrs T was Leader of the Opposition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.200.235.244 ( talk • contribs) 20:41, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
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Can a module be included within the infobox detailing Thatcher's scientific career, like on the right 81.147.76.243 ( talk) 17:05, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
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can i please edit her date of death for i couple minutes so margaret thatcher isnt dead Ineedalawyer ( talk) 01:29, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
I changed the sub-heading from Falklands to South Atlantic, which OrewaTel then reverted, claiming it to be the wrong name, although I am not sure what this means. I think it is more accurate to say the crisis was in the South Atlantic rather than the Falklands. The whole section needs a tidy but I have left it as is for now. Thoughts? Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 20:56, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
The Falklands invasion was only part of a wider problem with Argentina, admittedly by far the most obvious. However, this Argentine military problem had begun much earlier such as with Argentine forces on the Antarctic peninsular in 1952. Argentina had established a base on the South Sandwich islands in 1976 that had led the UK to send down a small naval force. And then there was the landing on South Georgia in March 1982 that also led the UK to send marines from the Falklands and warships down to the south atlantic, all before the 2 April invasion of the Falklands. Argenine sabre rattling still continues in an around the Antarctica and the South atlantic, large parts of which it claims as its sovereign territory, of which the Falklands are only a part. I know most of the media coverage was focussed on the Falklands War, but there was, and still is, more to it than just the 2 April invasion of the Falkland Islands. That is why I think 'Crisis in the South Atlantic' is a better heading. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 10:12, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
There are also articles on the Invasion of South Georgia and Operation Paraquet. Lord Carrington resigned because of that government's mishandling of messages being sent to Argenina, which involved the Falklands and the dependencies not just the Falklands themselves. The ship Endurance, that was being withdrawn, was the UK presence in the South Atlantic, not just for the Falklands, even though Stanley was its base. The first military action in 1982 was on South Georgia, not the Falklands, which resulted in the notable announcement outside number 10. Although I am not trying to minimise the importance and later media coverage of the Falkland Islands, I think there is a case now, after forty years, in acknowledging the bigger picture. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 21:03, 4 August 2021 (UTC)
In a talk point I raised during 2013, now archived in Archive 22, I raised a question about activities of the then Margaret Roberts who was criticised in much later press correspondence for not having served or done ancillary war work (and implicitly being hypocritical about her enthusiasm for defence matters), although of age to in WWII, while others postponed or put studies on hold to volunteer or be drafted. I have been rereading a booklet Oxford's Famous Faces by John Dougill, published 1987, while she was PM, which mentions that while studying she 'worked twice a week in the forces canteen' but no indication where it was and what organisation ran it. I have seen no mention of it in authorised biographies published since that. If more detail could be found it would be interesting to mention. Dougill acknowledges her study of chemistry was encouraged as a way of nurturing potential scientific recruits to the munitions industry which could well have been employing her had the war not outlasted her university course. Cloptonson ( talk) 07:29, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
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Margaret Thatcher | |
---|---|
Leader of the Conservative Party | |
In office 11 February 1975 – 28 November 1990 | |
Deputy | The Viscount Whitelaw |
Chairman |
The Lord Thorneycroft Cecil Parkinson John Gummer Norman Tebbit Peter Brooke Kenneth Baker |
Preceded by | Edward Heath |
Succeeded by | John Major |
Can Chairmen of the Conservative Party who served under Thatcher be listed in her infobox, as they are with most Leaders of the Labour Party, and many Leaders of the Conservatives? 81.157.224.127 ( talk) 09:40, 28 October 2021 (UTC)
We have had several edits that tried to add the word, stateswoman. This has been rejected by several editors. The main reasons were:
OrewaTel ( talk) 12:43, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
The description of "stateswoman" is one that can have been afforded to few, if any, other British politicians on their death.This, I believe, should be noted somewhere in the article. ‑‑ Neveselbert ( talk · contribs · email) 18:36, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
The pullquotes in this article violate
MOS:PULLQUOTE (emphasis mine): Pull quotes do not belong in Wikipedia articles. These are the news and magazine style of "pulling" material already in the article to reuse it in attention-grabbing decorative quotations. This unencyclopedic approach is a form of editorializing, produces out-of-context and undue emphasis, and may lead the reader to conclusions not supported in the material.
I recently removed 3 pullquotes from the article in accordance with MOS:PULLQUOTE, but it was reverted and asked I bring the change to Talk. Generally at Wikipedia, consensus isn't required to make an article conform to MOS (while still respecting existing style, etc.). I intend on re-removing the pullquotes from the article in the future, but I will initiate the conversation about it here as requested. — sbb ( talk) 15:49, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
Why are the words "is a British politician" being excluded from the intro? It's in the intro of the other recent British prime ministers bios. What makes Maggie different? GoodDay ( talk) 15:35, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
British prime minister. Her role as a politician is implied from that description but can also be easily inferred from the final sentence of the same paragraph, which describes her as having
implemented policies, obviously making her a politician. Also, only BLP bios use
is a British politician, where using the past tense is discouraged per MOS:BLPTENSE. Personally, I would like us to introduce her once again with
was a British stateswoman, but unfortunately that description has been challenged by several editors (see § Stateswoman?). ‑‑ Neveselbert ( talk · contribs · email) 17:52, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
American presidentis informal;
US presidentis the preferred form. Ironically it seems to be the other way round in Britain, where
UK prime ministeris considered less preferable to
British prime minister. ‑‑ Neveselbert ( talk · contribs · email) 19:47, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
Although there’s nothing wrong with the source at the moment that is used as a reference for Thatcher’s distant Irish ancestry, I believe there’s a better source that also includes more of her ancestry. The source is The Ancestry of Baroness Thatcher. I propose to either replace the other source (a newspaper article) or include the source as well.-- FriendlyFerret9854 ( talk) 12:00, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
"Thatcher" should redirect to the Margaret Thatcher article. It covers all of the guidelines and requirements for a direct.-- FriendlyFerret9854 ( talk) 20:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Thatcher which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 21:48, 18 January 2022 (UTC)