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The heading is not very descriptive. Someone stuck a WP:Synth editorial in here about the United States Government challenges to the validity of the Mandate. There is no supporting reference and there is no material in the cite on that subject.
The US Senate refused to recognize the validity of the system of Mandates and did not ratify the Versailles Treaty. When Great Britain, France, Italy, and Turkey did not ratify the Treaty of Sevres, the US Ambassador in London was instructed that the exercise of jurisdiction over American citizens by the local government and courts in Palestine contravened the rights of the United States under existing treaties and usages and could not be tolerated. That meant the Government of Palestine had no right to try Americans in its courts or collect taxes from them. The US continued to insist that the capitulations were valid until the Palestine Mandate Convention was ratified in 1925. It provided for their resumption when the temporary period of the Mandate was terminated. See for example D.P. O'Connell, H.Lauterpacht and A.D. McNair (eds), The Law of State Succession, Cambridge University, 1956, page 61. Here are examples from the FRUS:
The Italians held-up all of the A Mandates over similar concerns for Italians in the French Mandate.
The additional articles included in the US Mandate Conventions contained provisions that remained in effect after the dissolution of the League and stipulated that Great Britain and France could not alter the terms of the Mandates without US consent. The US was a signatory to the Treaty of Lausanne, so this snipped section is pretty much hogwash:
The United States, which was not a member of the League of Nations, and consequently was not required to officially state its position on the legality of the Palestinian Mandate. However, the US government accepted the de facto, if not de jure, status of the mandates and entered into individual treaties with the mandatory power to secure legal rights for its citizens and to protect property rights and business interests in the mandates. In the case of Palestine, in 1924, it entered into an understanding with Britain in the Palestine Mandate Convention, in which the United States "consents to the administration" (Article 1) and which dealt with eight issues of concern to the United States. [1]
harlan ( talk) 08:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Saying that portions of Transjordan were suggested to become part of the 1947-proposed Jewish state based on references to "Aqaba" is very misleading, to say the least. "Aqaba" is a name of port city, but also a common name to the Gulf on which it lies (in Israeli documents known as Gulf of Eilat since the 1950s or so). Some 10km along the gulf shore, between the outskirts of the city of Aqaba and Wadi Taba were under the British Jerusalem-based administration, so there was nothing peculiar in suggesting it would become part of the Jewish state in the partition plan. Back then, only a few huts used by Bedouin nomads were located in this small location known to locals as "Umm Rashrash". Today it is the site of the Israeli town of Eilat. The sources are ambiguous on whether Weizmann, when telling Truman about the importance of Aqaba, was referring to the port-city or to access to the gulf in general, so no far-fetched conclusions can be drawn from these words of his. 79.177.45.157 ( talk) 05:07, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
The Council of the League of Nations established the eastern border of Palestine when it approved a proposal from the the British government, dated September 16th, 1922 which said: "the territory known as Trans-Jordan, which comprises all territory lying to the east of a line drawn from a point two miles west of the town of Akaba [aka Aqaba] on the Gulf of that name up the centre of the Wady Araba, Dead Sea and River Jordan to its junction with the River Yarmuk ; thence up the centre of that river to the Syrian Frontier." See Mandate for Palestine together with a note by the Secretary-General relating to its application to the territory known as Trans-Jordan [6]
In 1947 the port was located at Aqaba in Transjordan, not at Um Rashrash in Palestine. You haven't mention any published sources which say that Um Rashrash was called "the port at Aqaba" in 1947.
John Snetsinger wrote that Chaim Weizmann visited President Truman on 19 November 1947 and discussed Jewish control of "the port at Aqaba". He said it was imperative that Aqaba be included in the Jewish state. In his 12 November 1947 memo, Secretary of State Marshall wrote that there had been frequent references about the desirability of including the "Port of Aqaba" in the Jewish state. [7]. In the same memo, Marshall pointed out that Aqaba was not located in Palestine. [8] You mentioned Donovan, but he actually cites Marshall's 12 November memo and does not mention Eilat or Um Rashrash at all. harlan ( talk) 15:38, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
There is an on-going discussion about the post-war treaties. They contained terms that governed recognition by other states, delineation and demarcation of boundaries, nationality, and administration of the "newly-created States" that acquired territories from Turkey. Those treaties were not part of the League of Nations Mandate instrument. Some of them also resulted in municipal ordinances, like the Treaty of Peace (Turkey) Ordinances of 1925-26.
If this article is going to be about the 28 articles of the League of Nations legal instrument, then the companion article should be about the Mandated State of Palestine. The introduction of the new Mandate Palestine article suggests that it was period of history in which the region became the territory of a legal instrument:
Mandate Palestine was a period in the history of the Middle East, roughly from 1917 until 14 May 1948, during which period Britain occupied and administered the region which in 1923 became the territory of the British Mandate for Palestine.
There is already an existing article about Transjordan. There is another about the region of Palestine which contained sections on its history:
That article uses the main article template and links to this this one. It says the boundaries of two new states were laid down within the territory of the British Mandate, Palestine and Transjordan. After the suggested clean-up, the {{sync}} tag needs to be applied to harmonize the contents of the various articles. harlan ( talk) 11:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Both articles now need to be tidied up as a result of the split. However, I would object to again introduce the word "State" in the title of the article. That would be to create the same issues as arise here.
I have one other observation. It seems to me that this article is again going off on a new tangent. This time it is in the termination of mandate section, with details of which territories is to be included in which entity. These are not things to do with the mandate, but with the post-mandate partition of the territory. This is covered already in numerous other articles. Those issues would be better dealt with in the partition plan article, for example. As I understand it, this article deals with the mandate document itself. Ewawer ( talk) 10:30, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
PS. The use of the term "region" in the intro was done after some thought. There was no established boundary for what became the mandate territory, with the boundaries of the territory only being determined in 1923. Please provide a better term/wording, other than "state". Ewawer ( talk) 10:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Basically what HW suggests is known in Wikipedia as "POV forking". It is a good idea to have a special article about Transjordan because it was an autonomous region that later developed into a new kingdom. What was then known as Palestine was under direct British rule according to the original mandate charter, so there is no need to treat it separately from the main article about the British Mandate. It seems to me that HW want the term "state" to be used so badly that he is willing to start a new article just for this purpose. 109.67.37.106 ( talk) 10:14, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
What is the reason for this split of the article? Seems to me that there is quite a bit of overlap between the articles. -- Frederico1234 ( talk) 16:12, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}}
I'm requesting this change because the article suggests the League of Nations originated the Mandate for Palestine when in fact they ratified the agreement already reached by the victorious allies of WWI
...June 1922, based on a draft by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War. The mandate formalised British rule in Palestine from 1917–1948.
...in June 1922, based on an agreement reached at the San Remo Conference by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War.
I'm requesting this change because the Mandatory was referred to as 'Britain' not the UK and as trustee they were the ones who decided to invoke Article 25 of the mandate to split Palestine East and West of the Jordan, each of which were to become Israel (23% of Palestine) and Jordan (77% of Palestine)
...the UK divided the Mandate territory into two administrative areas, Palestine, under direct British rule, and autonomous Transjordan,
...Britain divided the Mandate territory into two administrative areas, West Palestine, designated Homeland for the Jewish people, which later became democratic Israel and East Palestine autonomous Transjordan,
Copytopic1 ( talk) 22:06, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
---
Thanks for the info, i'm going to carefully put this together (with sources) to make sure it is reflective of the legally binding process. Your references are helpful, but i'd like this article to focus on that which was legally binding in accordance with the empowered parties at that time, the Allies who entered a legally binding agreement at San Remo, detailed the terms in the Treaty of Sevres and submitted to the League where it was unanimously approved by the 51 member nations at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Copytopic1 ( talk • contribs) 06:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC) Copytopic1 ( talk) 06:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
harlan ( talk) 07:39, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Copytopic1, the statement that West Palestine was intended as a national home for the Jewish people does not adequately summarize the content of the Mandate or the contents of the article regarding the Churchill White Paper of 1922. The League of Nations Permanent Mandates Commission took the position that the Mandate contained a dual obligation.
In 1932 the League of Nations Permanent Mandates Commission questioned the representative of the Mandatory on the demands made by the Arab population regarding the establishment of self-governing institutions, in accordance with various articles of the mandate, and in particular Article 2. The Chairman noted that "under the terms of the same article, the mandatory Power had long since set up the Jewish National Home." [28]
In March of 1930 Lord Passfield, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, had authored a Cabinet Paper CAB/24/211, formerly C.P. 108 (30), titled "PALESTINE: HIGH COMMISSIONERS VIEWS ON POLICY" which said:
He also noted:
I'll add that material to the article. harlan ( talk) 05:26, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Harlan - Article 4 of the Mandate is clear. The White Paper of 1922 is indicative, but in no way modifies the conditions of the Mandate including the dual obligations. Britain acted to meet this obligation when the Mandatory segmented Transjordan in August 1922. (The British government presented a memorandum to the League of Nations stating that Transjordan would be excluded from all the provisions dealing with Jewish settlement, and this memorandum was approved by the League on 12 August. From that point onwards, Britain administered the part west of the Jordan as Palestine, and the part east of the Jordan as Transjordan. Technically they remained one mandate, but most official documents referred to them as if they were two separate mandates. In May 1923 Transjordan was granted a degree of independence with Abdullah as ruler and Harry St. John Philby as chief representative.
The history of the region unfolds from this point and along the lines represented by the Mandatory to the League of Nations.
I think the dual obligation is fairly represented by my modifications; " Transjordan, intended [1] for rule under the Hashemite family from Hijaz.[2] and West Palestine intended as a national home for the Jewish people. The preamble of the mandate declared:"
Copytopic1 ( talk) 05:59, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
The phrase "West Palestine" is associated with the myths of Revisionist Zionism and is not acceptable here. Already from 1922 "Palestine" meant west of the Jordan and nothing else. Also there was no period of history during which the major part of Transjordan was considered Palestine; only the east side of the Jordan valley was. And one more thing, the Balfour Decl, Mandate text, etc, quite intentionally do not say that Palestine was intended as a National Home for the Jewish People. They only speak of a NHftJP in Palestine. This was not an accident but the result of careful deliberations that are well documented. Zero talk 07:30, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
The grandson of Lord Balfour made it clear at a talk at Balfour House in London (which I attended) that he knew from discussions with his grandfather that the creation of a Jewish state in the Biblical Land of Israel (Palestine/Judea) was the intention of the Balfour Declaration. By "in" he did not mean a part of it, but all of it! It's a pity he did not make this explicit in the Declaration and the Mandate documents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.216.20 ( talk) 14:41, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Harlan - thanks for the information it informs many facts, but denies a thorough review of the historical issue and therefore it lacks the integrity that this very sensitive subject requires. "Dual obligation" is a term introduced after the Allies established the Mandate. It's concept is embodied in the Mandate, but not specifically entitled "Dual obligation" so its easy to take this out of context.
Britain's engagement in the "Jewish national home" goes back to Chaim Weizmann [29] and one cannot ignore the Faisal-Weizmann agreement [30] that laid down the intentions of the parties. [31] - Surely you're not arguing that the others including Britain and the Allied Powers were blind to this agreement? It was referred to in the Paris Peace Conference [32] where it formed the basis on which the Mandate for Palestine was ultimately established. The intention of the Zionists were made very clear from the outset!
Ambiguity in the political process that crept into the execution of the intent to form a "Jewish national home" is introduced in Britain whose political leaders waiver throughout the period moving from the original understanding of intent that had been clearly established with the British origin political representatives and the basis on which the Allies formed the Mandate and Britain undertook to execute. The fact that Abdullah I [33] desired to alter that course occurs in the face of the foundation Weizmann-Faisal agreement, and the fact that Britain is complicit does not modify retrospective hindsight of the historical facts - and they can't and should not be ignored in this article.
We can't be blindsided when writing the history because we too become complicit, victims of the same innuendos that were introduced to divert Britain from its original Mandate.
I mean its very clear by 1947 that Britain has no idea how to handle the mess it got into, by its inability to carry out its Mandate. The conflict between the declared intention that it started out to achieve and the corrupted political reality, when Ernest Bevin makes his statement, says it all; [34]..." As far as Jewish development is concerned, everybody in this country, who has been associated with the affair, certainly up to 1931, assumed that it was a National Home for the Jews about which we were talking. I want to remind the House, however, that that is not the issue now. All that is over..."
In fact Bevin recognizes that because of the changed mood in Britain the Mandatory is effectively stripped of its power to do anything in the remainder of Palestine other than what the Mandate and the Allies intended and therefore he considers Britain to be impotent and he suggest that perhaps the United Nations now have the power to decide its fate - "...that, therefore, raises the issue which has got to be decided and we, as Mandatory Power, cannot solve that problem until the United Nations have recommended which of these three alternatives is to form the basis of the future organisation of Palestine. We, as Mandatory Power, have no power to make that decision. Nothing that I can find in any of the documents, either at the League of Nations, or in the discussions between the great Powers at Versailles and after, indicates that we have that power..."
Once Britain made the decision to segment Transjordon, West Palestine de facto became the Jewish National home. You can try and argue that any way you want, but it would be a denial of the facts.
This is supported by Bevin "...It has been suggested that we could do it by knitting in Transjordan, and it is argued that we carried out partition when we created Transjordan. That may be, but, if we try now, with Palestine as we know it today, to make it into two viable States, I say that we cannot do it..."
After Britain segmented Transjordan it attempted to change the Mandate in the remainder of Palestine, but they had no right to do so under the Mandate terms! "Dual obligation" was a politicized term.
"Mr. Davies Undoubtedly it was understood that in course of time such a state of affairs would come about that the Jews would be in control of their own affairs in Palestine. I cannot help feeling that a great part of this controversy would not have arisen today but for the fact that in the main those in charge of affairs in Palestine from 1922–39 never took that view Although they were advised by those who had more to do with it than anyone, namely, the present Leader of. the Opposition and Mr. Amery, they took. the other line entirely. I should say that their desire was to whittle down the Balfour Declaration as much as it could be whittled down. It ill becomes anybody to say now that there have not been changes of view, both in the Government and in this House."
There is no doubt inherent in the concept of a "Jewish national home" existed an obligation to all residents regardless of race or religion, therein lies the concept of "Dual Obligation". The obligation was placed on the Mandatory to ensure Jews empowered to govern the "Jewish national home" enacted a process that would respect the 'Dual obligations' of the Mandate. The correct meaning of "Dual obligation" cannot be taken out of context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Copytopic1 ( talk • contribs) 03:48, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Transjordan never was "an integral part of Palestine". They were separate mandated states under a joint mandate. The case of Syria and Lebanon is analogous. The text of the Palestine Mandate itself said that the boundaries had not yet been determined.
According to British Foreign Policy documents the river Jordan was the frontier between Palestine and Transjordan for all practical purposes from the establishment of the first OETA. See J. P. Bannerman editor, Palestine and Transjordan: 1914-1923, Issue 83 of Foreign policy documents, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, 1982, page 27. Suzanne Lalonde says that no official maps of the OETAs were ever published. She suggests that it is likely that the British used a 1918 map of Palestine and cites Yitzak Gil-Har's descriptions. See Suzanne Lalonde, Determining boundaries in a conflicted world: the role of uti possidetis, McGill-Queen's Press, 2002, ISBN 077352424X, page 94
Yitzhak Gil-Har said that "Palestine and Trans-Jordan emerged as states; This was in consequence of British War commitments to its allies during the First World War." According to Gil-Har "Great Britain had always treated Trans-Jordan as a political entity completely separate from Palestine. Its inclusion within the framework of the Palestine Mandate was an outcome of the political events following the fall of Faisal's government in July 1920. The Palestine–Trans-Jordan boundary served as a political barrier separating two states. Therefore, the postulation by some writers that the boundary was merely administrative in its character, delineating two territories subjected to the one British rule within the British Empire has no foundation in reality." Boundaries Delimitation: Palestine and Trans-Jordan, Yitzhak Gil-Har, Middle Eastern Studies, Vol. 36, No. 1 (Jan., 2000), pp. 68–81: [37]
The Transjordan region was part of the territory pledged to Hussein in 1915. See "British Commitments to King Husein, Political Intelligence Department, Foreign Office, November 1918, CAB 24/68 (formerly GT 6185)" Balfour wrote a memo in September of 1919 which indicated, at that time, that Palestine was the territory laying to the west of the Jordan river and that King Hussein of the Hedjaz was supposed to delineate the borders under the terms of the 1915 McMahon-Hussein agreement. See Memorandum by Mr. Balfour (Paris) respecting Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia' [132187/2117/44A], EL Woodward and Rohan Butler, Documents on British Foreign Policy, 1919-1939. (London: HM Stationery Office, 1952), pp 340-348. ISBN:0115915540
The Transjordan region had been allocated to an Arab State under the terms of the Sykes-Picot agreement and by the Versailles Peace Conference. The first formal attempt to establish interim boundaries was an "Aide-memoire in regard to the occupation of Syria, Palestine and Mesopotamia pending the decision in regard to Mandates, 13 September 1919" It divided the territory between the British, French, and Arab administered OETAs. It was premised upon the "principles of the Sykes-Picot agreement" and "the Sykes-Picot line". It mentions "the Arab State" that the British and French governments had committed to support in Zones A and B under the terms of Sykes-Picot and stipulates that the area was to be administered by the Arab forces under the control of the Emir Faisal. The Aide-memoire is available in J. C. Hurewitz (ed), The Middle East and North Africa in world politics: a documentary record ... [38] No Official maps of the OETAs were ever published.
The text of the draft mandate, as of August 1920, after San Remo Conference mentions the Treaty of Sevres; British "sovereignty"; but does not contain article 25 or any mention of the territory east of the Jordan river. See the 1920 Yearbook of the League of nations, Volume 1, [39]
Aaron Klieman wrote that the French formed a new Damascus state after the San Remo Cconference and the battle of Maysalun. As a result, Curzon instructed Vansittart (Paris) to leave the eastern boundary of Palestine undefined. On 21 March 1921, the Foreign and Colonial office legal advisers decided to introduce Article 25 into the Palestine Mandate. It was approved by Curzon on 31 March 1921, and the revised final draft of the mandate, which includied Transjordan in the mandate for the first time, was forwarded to the League of Nations on 22 July 1922. See Aaron S. Klieman, "Foundations of British Policy In The Arab World: The Cairo Conference of 1921",Johns Hopkins, 1970, ISBN 0-8018-1125-2, pages 228–234
In 1925 an arbitration court established by the Council of the League of Nations ruled that Palestine and Transjordan were separate states with entirely separate organisation. The Supreme Court of Palestine ruled in 1945 that Transjordan was a foreign state. See States as international persons, International Law Reports, By H. Lauterpacht, Cambridge University Press, 1994, ISBN 0-521-46357-2, page 17. harlan ( talk) 21:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Both maps have probems, but the 1920-1922 is the worst to the point of unacceptability. Many of the boundaries shown on the map did not exist at that time. The only definite section is the Palestine-Egypt boundary, which was defined in 1906. For the other boundaries:
This information is from the US State Dept "International Boundary Study" series [41]. The book of Biger describes it all in even more detail. In summary, the 1923+ map shows "final" boundaries for the mandate, which will be acceptable with a minor caption change (since these boundaries did not all exist in 1923; recall that the Mandate document refers to the "eastern boundary as ultimately determined", also "Saudi Arabia" didn't exist until 1932). The 1920-1922 map is mostly fantasy contradicted by better sources and is not acceptable. Zero talk 23:41, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Why in Wikipedia, clicking the flagicon of the British Mandate for Palestine redirects to "Palestinian Territories" and not "British Mandate for Palestine" ?
Live Example:
{{
flagicon|British Mandate for Palestine}}
now. I will be replacing all instances of the Mandate
variant of Country data Palestine, since that doesn't really make sense. —
Andrwsc (
talk ·
contribs)
18:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)You guys spend time discussing a lot of issues above, but there's not all that much directly on the actual justifications for splitting the article. My view is that there needs to be a much clearer differentiation of the functions and names of the two articles, and a lower degree of duplicative redundancy between them, to truly justify splitting the artiicle... AnonMoos ( talk) 15:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Reasons -
For the reasons stated above, I suggest renaming "Demographics of Palestine" to "Demographics of the British Mandate for Palestine". Please raise any relevant ideas and objections in the discussion. Greyshark09 ( talk) 15:38, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
There is a contradiction in sources I have about the official end time of the Mandate.
A. J. Sherman [in Mandate Days: British Lives in Palestine, 1918-1948. The Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 0801866200. (2001)] suggests that the Mandate ended at midnight London time on 14 May (that is, 12pm British Summer Time, 11pm Universal Time).
The Historama webpage Independence Day 1948 says that the Mandate ended at midnight Jerusalem time on the 14th, which I think would have been 9pm Universal Time or 10pm BST.
Overall, I think it is safer to go with the Historama page.
The meeting to announce Israeli independence occurred on the afternoon of the 14th at a time which allowed religiously observant attendees to be home by the start of the Sabbath. However, the declaration didn't come into effect until after the end of the Mandate. That is, right after midnight on the morning of the 15th. (see the Israeli Declaration of Independence document and the Letter From the Agent of the Provisional Government of Israel to the President of the United States)
← ZScarpia 00:37, 25 May 2011 (UTC) (expanded 02:17, 25 May 2011 (UTC))
The proposal is renaming Mandate Palestine into History of the Mandatory Palestine, due to lack of consistency with the lead. The lead says this article is a history article, yet it is presented as a clone of the British Mandate of Palestine, creating confusion. Please share your opinion on the talk page. Greyshark09 ( talk) 17:56, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
I think this article needs more detail about the debates over the text of the mandate. Presently the Partition Plan article has more detail than this one does. I that is backwards (and not because the partition plan has too much detail).
A source for the British component: http://books.google.com/books?id=RLYqAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA1008&ots=YCmhyVyiY5&dq=islington%20motion%20palestine&pg=PA1008#v=onepage&q=islington%20motion%20palestine&f=false
Jsolinsky ( talk) 13:35, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the use of "[sentimental]" in the quote. It appears to have been a Wikipedia addition. It is not present in the source. here is a link:
I have also removed some related surrounding text, and an old citation needed that had been attached to the surrounding text.
I do recall seeing this construction before, but it may have been inside of Wikipedia (or even in this article).
Nonetheless, it is certainly the case that any Wikipedia quotes should be as close as possible to the original.
I'm sure the editor who recently restored the word to the quote never imagined that it had been inserted by another editor and did not originate in the quoted source. Unfortunately, the same is probably true of Wikipedia readers. Jsolinsky ( talk) 15:10, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Merge, later possibly rename and split one or more subarticles upon consensus. Greyshark09 ( talk) 17:13, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
In 2010, the article "Mandate Palestine" was forked out of "British Mandate for Palestine" article, becoming an identical article since. Due to the preceding converstations (renaming not within consensus), an almost complete overlap (technically both articles describe a former Mandatory geopolitical entiry of Palestine under British rule, which has only one article in other languages) and ongoing confusion (ZScarpia insists that "British Mandate for Palestine" is just the name of a document and not a country), i propose to merge this article "Mandate Palestine" into British Mandate for Palestine, and make an additional article named British Mandate for Palestine (document) to prevent confusion between the document and the geopolitical entity. Please vote Merge or Keep with a proper reasoning. Greyshark09 ( talk) 15:44, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 9 |
The heading is not very descriptive. Someone stuck a WP:Synth editorial in here about the United States Government challenges to the validity of the Mandate. There is no supporting reference and there is no material in the cite on that subject.
The US Senate refused to recognize the validity of the system of Mandates and did not ratify the Versailles Treaty. When Great Britain, France, Italy, and Turkey did not ratify the Treaty of Sevres, the US Ambassador in London was instructed that the exercise of jurisdiction over American citizens by the local government and courts in Palestine contravened the rights of the United States under existing treaties and usages and could not be tolerated. That meant the Government of Palestine had no right to try Americans in its courts or collect taxes from them. The US continued to insist that the capitulations were valid until the Palestine Mandate Convention was ratified in 1925. It provided for their resumption when the temporary period of the Mandate was terminated. See for example D.P. O'Connell, H.Lauterpacht and A.D. McNair (eds), The Law of State Succession, Cambridge University, 1956, page 61. Here are examples from the FRUS:
The Italians held-up all of the A Mandates over similar concerns for Italians in the French Mandate.
The additional articles included in the US Mandate Conventions contained provisions that remained in effect after the dissolution of the League and stipulated that Great Britain and France could not alter the terms of the Mandates without US consent. The US was a signatory to the Treaty of Lausanne, so this snipped section is pretty much hogwash:
The United States, which was not a member of the League of Nations, and consequently was not required to officially state its position on the legality of the Palestinian Mandate. However, the US government accepted the de facto, if not de jure, status of the mandates and entered into individual treaties with the mandatory power to secure legal rights for its citizens and to protect property rights and business interests in the mandates. In the case of Palestine, in 1924, it entered into an understanding with Britain in the Palestine Mandate Convention, in which the United States "consents to the administration" (Article 1) and which dealt with eight issues of concern to the United States. [1]
harlan ( talk) 08:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Saying that portions of Transjordan were suggested to become part of the 1947-proposed Jewish state based on references to "Aqaba" is very misleading, to say the least. "Aqaba" is a name of port city, but also a common name to the Gulf on which it lies (in Israeli documents known as Gulf of Eilat since the 1950s or so). Some 10km along the gulf shore, between the outskirts of the city of Aqaba and Wadi Taba were under the British Jerusalem-based administration, so there was nothing peculiar in suggesting it would become part of the Jewish state in the partition plan. Back then, only a few huts used by Bedouin nomads were located in this small location known to locals as "Umm Rashrash". Today it is the site of the Israeli town of Eilat. The sources are ambiguous on whether Weizmann, when telling Truman about the importance of Aqaba, was referring to the port-city or to access to the gulf in general, so no far-fetched conclusions can be drawn from these words of his. 79.177.45.157 ( talk) 05:07, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
The Council of the League of Nations established the eastern border of Palestine when it approved a proposal from the the British government, dated September 16th, 1922 which said: "the territory known as Trans-Jordan, which comprises all territory lying to the east of a line drawn from a point two miles west of the town of Akaba [aka Aqaba] on the Gulf of that name up the centre of the Wady Araba, Dead Sea and River Jordan to its junction with the River Yarmuk ; thence up the centre of that river to the Syrian Frontier." See Mandate for Palestine together with a note by the Secretary-General relating to its application to the territory known as Trans-Jordan [6]
In 1947 the port was located at Aqaba in Transjordan, not at Um Rashrash in Palestine. You haven't mention any published sources which say that Um Rashrash was called "the port at Aqaba" in 1947.
John Snetsinger wrote that Chaim Weizmann visited President Truman on 19 November 1947 and discussed Jewish control of "the port at Aqaba". He said it was imperative that Aqaba be included in the Jewish state. In his 12 November 1947 memo, Secretary of State Marshall wrote that there had been frequent references about the desirability of including the "Port of Aqaba" in the Jewish state. [7]. In the same memo, Marshall pointed out that Aqaba was not located in Palestine. [8] You mentioned Donovan, but he actually cites Marshall's 12 November memo and does not mention Eilat or Um Rashrash at all. harlan ( talk) 15:38, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
There is an on-going discussion about the post-war treaties. They contained terms that governed recognition by other states, delineation and demarcation of boundaries, nationality, and administration of the "newly-created States" that acquired territories from Turkey. Those treaties were not part of the League of Nations Mandate instrument. Some of them also resulted in municipal ordinances, like the Treaty of Peace (Turkey) Ordinances of 1925-26.
If this article is going to be about the 28 articles of the League of Nations legal instrument, then the companion article should be about the Mandated State of Palestine. The introduction of the new Mandate Palestine article suggests that it was period of history in which the region became the territory of a legal instrument:
Mandate Palestine was a period in the history of the Middle East, roughly from 1917 until 14 May 1948, during which period Britain occupied and administered the region which in 1923 became the territory of the British Mandate for Palestine.
There is already an existing article about Transjordan. There is another about the region of Palestine which contained sections on its history:
That article uses the main article template and links to this this one. It says the boundaries of two new states were laid down within the territory of the British Mandate, Palestine and Transjordan. After the suggested clean-up, the {{sync}} tag needs to be applied to harmonize the contents of the various articles. harlan ( talk) 11:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Both articles now need to be tidied up as a result of the split. However, I would object to again introduce the word "State" in the title of the article. That would be to create the same issues as arise here.
I have one other observation. It seems to me that this article is again going off on a new tangent. This time it is in the termination of mandate section, with details of which territories is to be included in which entity. These are not things to do with the mandate, but with the post-mandate partition of the territory. This is covered already in numerous other articles. Those issues would be better dealt with in the partition plan article, for example. As I understand it, this article deals with the mandate document itself. Ewawer ( talk) 10:30, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
PS. The use of the term "region" in the intro was done after some thought. There was no established boundary for what became the mandate territory, with the boundaries of the territory only being determined in 1923. Please provide a better term/wording, other than "state". Ewawer ( talk) 10:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Basically what HW suggests is known in Wikipedia as "POV forking". It is a good idea to have a special article about Transjordan because it was an autonomous region that later developed into a new kingdom. What was then known as Palestine was under direct British rule according to the original mandate charter, so there is no need to treat it separately from the main article about the British Mandate. It seems to me that HW want the term "state" to be used so badly that he is willing to start a new article just for this purpose. 109.67.37.106 ( talk) 10:14, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
What is the reason for this split of the article? Seems to me that there is quite a bit of overlap between the articles. -- Frederico1234 ( talk) 16:12, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
{{ editsemiprotected}}
I'm requesting this change because the article suggests the League of Nations originated the Mandate for Palestine when in fact they ratified the agreement already reached by the victorious allies of WWI
...June 1922, based on a draft by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War. The mandate formalised British rule in Palestine from 1917–1948.
...in June 1922, based on an agreement reached at the San Remo Conference by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War.
I'm requesting this change because the Mandatory was referred to as 'Britain' not the UK and as trustee they were the ones who decided to invoke Article 25 of the mandate to split Palestine East and West of the Jordan, each of which were to become Israel (23% of Palestine) and Jordan (77% of Palestine)
...the UK divided the Mandate territory into two administrative areas, Palestine, under direct British rule, and autonomous Transjordan,
...Britain divided the Mandate territory into two administrative areas, West Palestine, designated Homeland for the Jewish people, which later became democratic Israel and East Palestine autonomous Transjordan,
Copytopic1 ( talk) 22:06, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
---
Thanks for the info, i'm going to carefully put this together (with sources) to make sure it is reflective of the legally binding process. Your references are helpful, but i'd like this article to focus on that which was legally binding in accordance with the empowered parties at that time, the Allies who entered a legally binding agreement at San Remo, detailed the terms in the Treaty of Sevres and submitted to the League where it was unanimously approved by the 51 member nations at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Copytopic1 ( talk • contribs) 06:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC) Copytopic1 ( talk) 06:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
harlan ( talk) 07:39, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Copytopic1, the statement that West Palestine was intended as a national home for the Jewish people does not adequately summarize the content of the Mandate or the contents of the article regarding the Churchill White Paper of 1922. The League of Nations Permanent Mandates Commission took the position that the Mandate contained a dual obligation.
In 1932 the League of Nations Permanent Mandates Commission questioned the representative of the Mandatory on the demands made by the Arab population regarding the establishment of self-governing institutions, in accordance with various articles of the mandate, and in particular Article 2. The Chairman noted that "under the terms of the same article, the mandatory Power had long since set up the Jewish National Home." [28]
In March of 1930 Lord Passfield, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, had authored a Cabinet Paper CAB/24/211, formerly C.P. 108 (30), titled "PALESTINE: HIGH COMMISSIONERS VIEWS ON POLICY" which said:
He also noted:
I'll add that material to the article. harlan ( talk) 05:26, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Harlan - Article 4 of the Mandate is clear. The White Paper of 1922 is indicative, but in no way modifies the conditions of the Mandate including the dual obligations. Britain acted to meet this obligation when the Mandatory segmented Transjordan in August 1922. (The British government presented a memorandum to the League of Nations stating that Transjordan would be excluded from all the provisions dealing with Jewish settlement, and this memorandum was approved by the League on 12 August. From that point onwards, Britain administered the part west of the Jordan as Palestine, and the part east of the Jordan as Transjordan. Technically they remained one mandate, but most official documents referred to them as if they were two separate mandates. In May 1923 Transjordan was granted a degree of independence with Abdullah as ruler and Harry St. John Philby as chief representative.
The history of the region unfolds from this point and along the lines represented by the Mandatory to the League of Nations.
I think the dual obligation is fairly represented by my modifications; " Transjordan, intended [1] for rule under the Hashemite family from Hijaz.[2] and West Palestine intended as a national home for the Jewish people. The preamble of the mandate declared:"
Copytopic1 ( talk) 05:59, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
The phrase "West Palestine" is associated with the myths of Revisionist Zionism and is not acceptable here. Already from 1922 "Palestine" meant west of the Jordan and nothing else. Also there was no period of history during which the major part of Transjordan was considered Palestine; only the east side of the Jordan valley was. And one more thing, the Balfour Decl, Mandate text, etc, quite intentionally do not say that Palestine was intended as a National Home for the Jewish People. They only speak of a NHftJP in Palestine. This was not an accident but the result of careful deliberations that are well documented. Zero talk 07:30, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
The grandson of Lord Balfour made it clear at a talk at Balfour House in London (which I attended) that he knew from discussions with his grandfather that the creation of a Jewish state in the Biblical Land of Israel (Palestine/Judea) was the intention of the Balfour Declaration. By "in" he did not mean a part of it, but all of it! It's a pity he did not make this explicit in the Declaration and the Mandate documents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.216.20 ( talk) 14:41, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Harlan - thanks for the information it informs many facts, but denies a thorough review of the historical issue and therefore it lacks the integrity that this very sensitive subject requires. "Dual obligation" is a term introduced after the Allies established the Mandate. It's concept is embodied in the Mandate, but not specifically entitled "Dual obligation" so its easy to take this out of context.
Britain's engagement in the "Jewish national home" goes back to Chaim Weizmann [29] and one cannot ignore the Faisal-Weizmann agreement [30] that laid down the intentions of the parties. [31] - Surely you're not arguing that the others including Britain and the Allied Powers were blind to this agreement? It was referred to in the Paris Peace Conference [32] where it formed the basis on which the Mandate for Palestine was ultimately established. The intention of the Zionists were made very clear from the outset!
Ambiguity in the political process that crept into the execution of the intent to form a "Jewish national home" is introduced in Britain whose political leaders waiver throughout the period moving from the original understanding of intent that had been clearly established with the British origin political representatives and the basis on which the Allies formed the Mandate and Britain undertook to execute. The fact that Abdullah I [33] desired to alter that course occurs in the face of the foundation Weizmann-Faisal agreement, and the fact that Britain is complicit does not modify retrospective hindsight of the historical facts - and they can't and should not be ignored in this article.
We can't be blindsided when writing the history because we too become complicit, victims of the same innuendos that were introduced to divert Britain from its original Mandate.
I mean its very clear by 1947 that Britain has no idea how to handle the mess it got into, by its inability to carry out its Mandate. The conflict between the declared intention that it started out to achieve and the corrupted political reality, when Ernest Bevin makes his statement, says it all; [34]..." As far as Jewish development is concerned, everybody in this country, who has been associated with the affair, certainly up to 1931, assumed that it was a National Home for the Jews about which we were talking. I want to remind the House, however, that that is not the issue now. All that is over..."
In fact Bevin recognizes that because of the changed mood in Britain the Mandatory is effectively stripped of its power to do anything in the remainder of Palestine other than what the Mandate and the Allies intended and therefore he considers Britain to be impotent and he suggest that perhaps the United Nations now have the power to decide its fate - "...that, therefore, raises the issue which has got to be decided and we, as Mandatory Power, cannot solve that problem until the United Nations have recommended which of these three alternatives is to form the basis of the future organisation of Palestine. We, as Mandatory Power, have no power to make that decision. Nothing that I can find in any of the documents, either at the League of Nations, or in the discussions between the great Powers at Versailles and after, indicates that we have that power..."
Once Britain made the decision to segment Transjordon, West Palestine de facto became the Jewish National home. You can try and argue that any way you want, but it would be a denial of the facts.
This is supported by Bevin "...It has been suggested that we could do it by knitting in Transjordan, and it is argued that we carried out partition when we created Transjordan. That may be, but, if we try now, with Palestine as we know it today, to make it into two viable States, I say that we cannot do it..."
After Britain segmented Transjordan it attempted to change the Mandate in the remainder of Palestine, but they had no right to do so under the Mandate terms! "Dual obligation" was a politicized term.
"Mr. Davies Undoubtedly it was understood that in course of time such a state of affairs would come about that the Jews would be in control of their own affairs in Palestine. I cannot help feeling that a great part of this controversy would not have arisen today but for the fact that in the main those in charge of affairs in Palestine from 1922–39 never took that view Although they were advised by those who had more to do with it than anyone, namely, the present Leader of. the Opposition and Mr. Amery, they took. the other line entirely. I should say that their desire was to whittle down the Balfour Declaration as much as it could be whittled down. It ill becomes anybody to say now that there have not been changes of view, both in the Government and in this House."
There is no doubt inherent in the concept of a "Jewish national home" existed an obligation to all residents regardless of race or religion, therein lies the concept of "Dual Obligation". The obligation was placed on the Mandatory to ensure Jews empowered to govern the "Jewish national home" enacted a process that would respect the 'Dual obligations' of the Mandate. The correct meaning of "Dual obligation" cannot be taken out of context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Copytopic1 ( talk • contribs) 03:48, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Transjordan never was "an integral part of Palestine". They were separate mandated states under a joint mandate. The case of Syria and Lebanon is analogous. The text of the Palestine Mandate itself said that the boundaries had not yet been determined.
According to British Foreign Policy documents the river Jordan was the frontier between Palestine and Transjordan for all practical purposes from the establishment of the first OETA. See J. P. Bannerman editor, Palestine and Transjordan: 1914-1923, Issue 83 of Foreign policy documents, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, 1982, page 27. Suzanne Lalonde says that no official maps of the OETAs were ever published. She suggests that it is likely that the British used a 1918 map of Palestine and cites Yitzak Gil-Har's descriptions. See Suzanne Lalonde, Determining boundaries in a conflicted world: the role of uti possidetis, McGill-Queen's Press, 2002, ISBN 077352424X, page 94
Yitzhak Gil-Har said that "Palestine and Trans-Jordan emerged as states; This was in consequence of British War commitments to its allies during the First World War." According to Gil-Har "Great Britain had always treated Trans-Jordan as a political entity completely separate from Palestine. Its inclusion within the framework of the Palestine Mandate was an outcome of the political events following the fall of Faisal's government in July 1920. The Palestine–Trans-Jordan boundary served as a political barrier separating two states. Therefore, the postulation by some writers that the boundary was merely administrative in its character, delineating two territories subjected to the one British rule within the British Empire has no foundation in reality." Boundaries Delimitation: Palestine and Trans-Jordan, Yitzhak Gil-Har, Middle Eastern Studies, Vol. 36, No. 1 (Jan., 2000), pp. 68–81: [37]
The Transjordan region was part of the territory pledged to Hussein in 1915. See "British Commitments to King Husein, Political Intelligence Department, Foreign Office, November 1918, CAB 24/68 (formerly GT 6185)" Balfour wrote a memo in September of 1919 which indicated, at that time, that Palestine was the territory laying to the west of the Jordan river and that King Hussein of the Hedjaz was supposed to delineate the borders under the terms of the 1915 McMahon-Hussein agreement. See Memorandum by Mr. Balfour (Paris) respecting Syria, Palestine, and Mesopotamia' [132187/2117/44A], EL Woodward and Rohan Butler, Documents on British Foreign Policy, 1919-1939. (London: HM Stationery Office, 1952), pp 340-348. ISBN:0115915540
The Transjordan region had been allocated to an Arab State under the terms of the Sykes-Picot agreement and by the Versailles Peace Conference. The first formal attempt to establish interim boundaries was an "Aide-memoire in regard to the occupation of Syria, Palestine and Mesopotamia pending the decision in regard to Mandates, 13 September 1919" It divided the territory between the British, French, and Arab administered OETAs. It was premised upon the "principles of the Sykes-Picot agreement" and "the Sykes-Picot line". It mentions "the Arab State" that the British and French governments had committed to support in Zones A and B under the terms of Sykes-Picot and stipulates that the area was to be administered by the Arab forces under the control of the Emir Faisal. The Aide-memoire is available in J. C. Hurewitz (ed), The Middle East and North Africa in world politics: a documentary record ... [38] No Official maps of the OETAs were ever published.
The text of the draft mandate, as of August 1920, after San Remo Conference mentions the Treaty of Sevres; British "sovereignty"; but does not contain article 25 or any mention of the territory east of the Jordan river. See the 1920 Yearbook of the League of nations, Volume 1, [39]
Aaron Klieman wrote that the French formed a new Damascus state after the San Remo Cconference and the battle of Maysalun. As a result, Curzon instructed Vansittart (Paris) to leave the eastern boundary of Palestine undefined. On 21 March 1921, the Foreign and Colonial office legal advisers decided to introduce Article 25 into the Palestine Mandate. It was approved by Curzon on 31 March 1921, and the revised final draft of the mandate, which includied Transjordan in the mandate for the first time, was forwarded to the League of Nations on 22 July 1922. See Aaron S. Klieman, "Foundations of British Policy In The Arab World: The Cairo Conference of 1921",Johns Hopkins, 1970, ISBN 0-8018-1125-2, pages 228–234
In 1925 an arbitration court established by the Council of the League of Nations ruled that Palestine and Transjordan were separate states with entirely separate organisation. The Supreme Court of Palestine ruled in 1945 that Transjordan was a foreign state. See States as international persons, International Law Reports, By H. Lauterpacht, Cambridge University Press, 1994, ISBN 0-521-46357-2, page 17. harlan ( talk) 21:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Both maps have probems, but the 1920-1922 is the worst to the point of unacceptability. Many of the boundaries shown on the map did not exist at that time. The only definite section is the Palestine-Egypt boundary, which was defined in 1906. For the other boundaries:
This information is from the US State Dept "International Boundary Study" series [41]. The book of Biger describes it all in even more detail. In summary, the 1923+ map shows "final" boundaries for the mandate, which will be acceptable with a minor caption change (since these boundaries did not all exist in 1923; recall that the Mandate document refers to the "eastern boundary as ultimately determined", also "Saudi Arabia" didn't exist until 1932). The 1920-1922 map is mostly fantasy contradicted by better sources and is not acceptable. Zero talk 23:41, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Why in Wikipedia, clicking the flagicon of the British Mandate for Palestine redirects to "Palestinian Territories" and not "British Mandate for Palestine" ?
Live Example:
{{
flagicon|British Mandate for Palestine}}
now. I will be replacing all instances of the Mandate
variant of Country data Palestine, since that doesn't really make sense. —
Andrwsc (
talk ·
contribs)
18:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)You guys spend time discussing a lot of issues above, but there's not all that much directly on the actual justifications for splitting the article. My view is that there needs to be a much clearer differentiation of the functions and names of the two articles, and a lower degree of duplicative redundancy between them, to truly justify splitting the artiicle... AnonMoos ( talk) 15:12, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Reasons -
For the reasons stated above, I suggest renaming "Demographics of Palestine" to "Demographics of the British Mandate for Palestine". Please raise any relevant ideas and objections in the discussion. Greyshark09 ( talk) 15:38, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
There is a contradiction in sources I have about the official end time of the Mandate.
A. J. Sherman [in Mandate Days: British Lives in Palestine, 1918-1948. The Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 0801866200. (2001)] suggests that the Mandate ended at midnight London time on 14 May (that is, 12pm British Summer Time, 11pm Universal Time).
The Historama webpage Independence Day 1948 says that the Mandate ended at midnight Jerusalem time on the 14th, which I think would have been 9pm Universal Time or 10pm BST.
Overall, I think it is safer to go with the Historama page.
The meeting to announce Israeli independence occurred on the afternoon of the 14th at a time which allowed religiously observant attendees to be home by the start of the Sabbath. However, the declaration didn't come into effect until after the end of the Mandate. That is, right after midnight on the morning of the 15th. (see the Israeli Declaration of Independence document and the Letter From the Agent of the Provisional Government of Israel to the President of the United States)
← ZScarpia 00:37, 25 May 2011 (UTC) (expanded 02:17, 25 May 2011 (UTC))
The proposal is renaming Mandate Palestine into History of the Mandatory Palestine, due to lack of consistency with the lead. The lead says this article is a history article, yet it is presented as a clone of the British Mandate of Palestine, creating confusion. Please share your opinion on the talk page. Greyshark09 ( talk) 17:56, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
I think this article needs more detail about the debates over the text of the mandate. Presently the Partition Plan article has more detail than this one does. I that is backwards (and not because the partition plan has too much detail).
A source for the British component: http://books.google.com/books?id=RLYqAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA1008&ots=YCmhyVyiY5&dq=islington%20motion%20palestine&pg=PA1008#v=onepage&q=islington%20motion%20palestine&f=false
Jsolinsky ( talk) 13:35, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the use of "[sentimental]" in the quote. It appears to have been a Wikipedia addition. It is not present in the source. here is a link:
I have also removed some related surrounding text, and an old citation needed that had been attached to the surrounding text.
I do recall seeing this construction before, but it may have been inside of Wikipedia (or even in this article).
Nonetheless, it is certainly the case that any Wikipedia quotes should be as close as possible to the original.
I'm sure the editor who recently restored the word to the quote never imagined that it had been inserted by another editor and did not originate in the quoted source. Unfortunately, the same is probably true of Wikipedia readers. Jsolinsky ( talk) 15:10, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was Merge, later possibly rename and split one or more subarticles upon consensus. Greyshark09 ( talk) 17:13, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
In 2010, the article "Mandate Palestine" was forked out of "British Mandate for Palestine" article, becoming an identical article since. Due to the preceding converstations (renaming not within consensus), an almost complete overlap (technically both articles describe a former Mandatory geopolitical entiry of Palestine under British rule, which has only one article in other languages) and ongoing confusion (ZScarpia insists that "British Mandate for Palestine" is just the name of a document and not a country), i propose to merge this article "Mandate Palestine" into British Mandate for Palestine, and make an additional article named British Mandate for Palestine (document) to prevent confusion between the document and the geopolitical entity. Please vote Merge or Keep with a proper reasoning. Greyshark09 ( talk) 15:44, 24 December 2011 (UTC)