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Please, add Hungarian goverment's statement:
As we all know, Pprune is not a RS, but it is a useful research tool. Post #369 on the discussion thread has some interesting links that give some background to the alleged possession of BUKs by the rebels. Will leave it open as to whether or not the info should be added to the article, Mjroots ( talk) 18:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The article quotes Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema as saying the militants don't have BUK systems. The original quote appeared in the Kyiv Post and actually said: "Members of illegal armed units have not seized air defense launchers of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Donetsk, Ukrainian Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema said".
That's a big difference from saying rebels don't have them at all. Instead he is saying they don't have Ukrainian BUK assets. The article should be updated to accurately reflect his quote.
ref: https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukrainian-prosecutor-general-says-militants-did-not-seize-ukrainian-air-defense-launchers-356619.html 154.20.228.233 ( talk) 19:14, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
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Here is a source for the Israeli victim [1] Bonus88 ( talk) 19:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Done –
United States Man (
talk) 19:27, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
This section seems unnecessary. There's just two times listed and unlikely to be many more noteworthy events. This isn't like MH370, where there were many events and such a listing is useful. On this article, those two times can be easily found in the article's text. AHeneen ( talk) 18:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I don't understand the edit warring. I know that this matter needs discussion. Whether the timeline of flight is useful should be discussed here. I don't want users to be banned or blocked over this matter. -- George Ho ( talk) 19:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
"However, the militants later denied free access to the crash site to OSCE team on August 18." Should that not read "July 18"? 184.147.239.218 ( talk) 20:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
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Here is a source for the Belgian victims: 6 belgian nationals: 4 belgian nationals resident in belgium, 1 belgian national resident in australia and 1 dual Belgian-Dutch national resident in Belgium (already counted by the dutch victims). [1] Neander1 ( talk) 19:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Done. -
84user (
talk) 20:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
As this source suggests, this seems to be the first time an airline crash has ever had to have been investigated in a war zone. Maybe this point should be made explicitly? Martinevans123 ( talk) 22:28, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
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Could someone please put flag icons in the "Reactions" section near the comments of each respective representative, and make sure they STAY THERE? Thanks, 24.201.213.251 ( talk) 19:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Several people have attempted to add a statement to Igor Girkin stating that he has taken claim for the attack, which so far hasn't been confirmed in any reliable source (all that's confirmed right now is that he had claimed on Facebook to have shot down an An-26 earlier today, but has since deleted this post). So any extra eyes on this BLP would be appreciated. SheepNotGoats ( talk) 18:56, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Could we not use european sources that are reliable? It is probably more than likely that Igor Girkin shot down the airplane as he shot down the Antonov An-26 half an hour earlier in the same area, but that post was later deleted by him. http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/805200-igor-girkin-commander-of-donetsk-peoples-army-igor-strelkov-says-they-shot-down-malaysia-airlines-mh17-photos/, so who knows should we wait for more US sources to put this out? Martinillo ( talk) 19:43, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
There's already been a lot of bad IP edits at Girkin's article (vandalism, unsourced, and badly-sourced stuff). As it's a BLP, is it worth semi-protecting it? (especially since there are far fewer people watching that article than there are here) SheepNotGoats ( talk) 20:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to draw some attention to the explanation posted in Girkin's group where the info about the downed plane originated from:
I hope someone will add this explanation to the article to clear some things up. Доктор Хаос ( talk) 22:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Strelkov dont have any site or any facebook/vk/etc accounts. He post some info and comments from beginning of conflict here http://forum-antikvariat.ru/topic/204348-%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5-%D1%81%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%81-%D1%8E%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D1%84%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0/ . This forum is linked to his hobby. All other sites take info from this forum. One month ago Strelkov made video statement ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBst_w0eOS0 ) about "official" site icorpus.ru . Site ikorpus.ru is fake. All facebook/vk are fake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.213.240.205 ( talk) 08:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I've removed the fatality/survivor count from the article, as it was reading "Fatalities: 295; Survivors: 295", which looks rather jarring. As we don't know anything yet, just the number of people on the plane is sufficient. Microchip08 ( talk) 16:32, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The number of Dutch dead is 192 [ [3]] One of the Dutch victems also has an american nationality. Sorced! [1] The Northaptonshire pins ( talk) 19:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC).
The current structure and order is convoluted and there is no authoritative Cause until the investigation is completed (personally, I've heard the tapes and think it was the militia). NPOV can be waaaay better than this and the article needs to be properly structured if it is to get better. JBVaughan ( talk) 23:06, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I have just added the following paragraph but it was reverted by @ John: as "badly written, badly sourced". Can you please explain in more details and fix the paragraph instead of deleting it? I attempted to collect the most prominent stories from Russian media as this is what is being reported on large scale in Russia right now. Pawel Krawczyk ( talk) 11:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
On 18 July Russian Defence Ministry declared that during the time of the crash "anti-aircraft units of Russian Federation did not operate in that area" but claimed that Ukrainian "Buk-M1" units were located north-west from Donetsk and that Russian units detected their radar activity.[1] RT suggested that air control should not have allowed MH17 through the conflict zone and additionally the route from 17 July was diverted by 200 km north compared to usual routes.[2] RIA suggested that similarities exist to Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 that was erroneously shot down by Ukrainian missile during anti-aircraft training in 2001.[3] DPR representatives changed their position, initially announcing that they shot down a military An-26 transport aircraft[4], then claiming they had no missiles to reach 10 km level when it became evident it was MH17[5], and then claimed that they had witnessed an Ukrainian fighter Su-25 shot down the Boeing.[6] Gazeta.ru pointed out inconsistencies in stories by other Russian media and wrote that both sides of the conflict, Ukraine and DNR, were in posession of "Buk" missiles and that the Su-25 theories are unreliable since the fighter's service ceiling is 5 km.[7]
Thanks to both of you - just adding reworked version. Pawel Krawczyk ( talk) 12:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Russia Today also reports that Ukrainian Buk was operational at the time when the airplane was downed ( Source).-- Kiril Simeonovski ( talk) 13:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
It's amazing that verified, soured and factual evidence is provided from multiple unbiased sources around the world show that Russian controlled separatist forces were responsible for the missile attack on a civilian passenger plane and yet you genuinely think solely Russian state media controlled sources, that even admit in many instances they have NO EVIDENCE TO VERIFY THEIR CLAIMS, should be included or even believed because they simply say "Ukraine forces were in the area! Sure we have no proof but you should trust us". 106.68.82.41 ( talk) 01:07, 19 July 2014 (UTC) Harlequin
Eyewitness accounts from the ground of what happens at 10,000 meters are rare...
Can I ask editors not to immediately put NPOV tags and the like on this article? Please propose your specific changes (with sources) here and discuss for at least 24 hours or so before resorting to this. Thank you. -- John ( talk) 13:11, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5NSSzYygk. User Causantin incorrect in assuming that radar on launch vehicle is enough to properly use full 3+ vehicle Buk system. See http://www.janes.com/article/40902/civilian-airliner-crashes-in-ukraine-believed-to-have-been-shot-down However, no major news outlets have picked up on the YT videos yet, and they are not normally good sources for Wikipedia. Oathed ( talk) 16:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The words "claim" and "alleged" appeared quite often in the article, I've replaced them with "said" as much as possible per WP:CLAIM. In one case the wording I used, in regards to the Ukrainian wiretaps, still implies some doubt. Geogene ( talk) 19:19, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Why was McCain's statement about "bringing hell to Russia" removed from the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.201.213.251 ( talk) 03:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
So John McCain is a minor politician which means you have a lot to learn about U.S. politics. Russia and Mr. Putin are very much involved with this tragedy. I noticed you are a recent college graduate so I understand that your are VERY naive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.12.111.217 ( talk) 00:28, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
There is a conspiracy theory that Putin's plane was the intended target, which was readded to the article. [11] This is based on similar colors and the planes supposedly having been close at some point (but which is itself apparently based on contradictory reports.) The RT ref notes that Putin (obviously) wouldn't be flying over Ukraine. I think it is WP:UNDUE to include in the article. 9kat ( talk) 16:22, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The report that Putin's plane was misidentified by Ukrainian jets appeared on Channel One Russia , the country's most popular TV network, so we should not call the sources fringe. They are, in fact, quite mainstream. But they can be both mainstream and unreliable if there is a deliberate state media propaganda effort at work.-- Brian Dell ( talk) 02:27, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
It equals 299 in the deaths by nationality box if you do the math, yet the infobox says 298. WikiWinters ( talk) 17:12, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I know what "pro-Russia" means: it means proponent or supporter of Russia. What exactly does "pro-Russian" mean? -- 50.46.245.232 ( talk) 02:07, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Is there any reason to call this an act of terrorism? The evidence suggests this was an unintentional downing of an airliner by pro-Russia separatists who mistook it for a An-26 or similar plane. What is fundamentally different about this incident compared to the incidents involving Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 or Iran Air Flight 655? I also don't think the category War crimes is appropriate for these reasons. -- 50.46.245.232 ( talk) 19:26, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
How did we get those figures? The current source says nothing about 149 Dutch, ...US, ...UK etc. These figures have no reference, they might as well have been put in at random. Can somebody show a link to a reliable source or are we presenting speculation as fact? Nathan121212 ( talk) 21:03, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
"Aan boord zaten 283 passagiers en 15 bemanningsleden. Van 47 mensen is de identiteit of de nationaliteit nog niet geweten. Aan boord waren zeker 154 Nederlanders en 4 Belgen. Verder zaten er 27 Australiërs aan boord, 23 Maleisiërs, 11 Indonesiërs, 6 Britten, 4 Duitsers, 3 Filipijnen en 1 Canadees." (translation: "On board were 283 passengers and 15 crew members. Of 47 people, the identity or nationality is not yet known. Aboard were at least 154 Dutch and 4 Belgians. Beyond that, there were 27 Australians on board, 23 Malaysians, 11 Indonesians, 6 Brits, 4 Germans, 3 Filipinos and a Canadian.") AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 21:10, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
There is no confirmation yet that any Americans were on board. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 23:03, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
A HKSAR passport holder was aboard on flight MH17 confirmed by Hong Kong Immigration Department. Please add it to the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevincmh71 ( talk • contribs) 05:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Julie Bishop (Australian Foreign Minister) just confirmed on a live news interview that 28 Australians were on the flight. I guess there will be an official announcement later today StuB63 ( talk) 06:12, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
www.adevarul.ro stated that the canadian victim was of Romanian nationality, having aquired the Canadian one later. They had a background check on the individual. The source of the article: http://adevarul.ro/locale/cluj-napoca/un-student-clujean-murit-accidentul-aviatic-ucraina-1_53c8fb4d0d133766a88ace9c/index.html
––––––You are right. He was studying at UMF in Cluj-Napoca, Romania. Cristi767 ( talk) 21:06, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
What about these freak coincidences do they desrve being mentioned, crew couple swapped flights oh MH17 and MH370 with colleagues http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/19/Stewardess-who-switched-with-colleague-lucky-but-not-hubby Australian family struck twice by MH incidents http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/18/MH17-aust-couple-also-lost-relatives-on-MH370. 175.110.222.144 ( talk) 05:13, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Confirmed. Can it be corrected in the article? Normalgirl ( talk) 23:00, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
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The table of nationalities is incorrect. According to the source listed, there were only 27 Austrailians, and no one from South Africa. Also, the numbers don't add up right now. The total of the people listed right now is 300, instead of 298. http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html 99.247.141.23 ( talk) 14:30, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
This should be added to the part next to the wiretap recordings. The article with video says: "Secret surveillance units of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry this morning have recorded a caterpillar tractor with the Buk missile system on it, moving via Krasnodon towards Russia," which is missing one missile. This has been picked up the media, examples: [12] [13] [14] [15] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yetyetnono ( talk • contribs) 23:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I believe the BUK was missing 2 missiles and was seen heading towards the Russian border at high speed. This would be consistent with the 2 planes(1 cargo and the other the passenger plane) being shot down. The pro Russian rebels have already claimed responsibility for the cargo plane shooting.
The "Minister of Defence" of such called Donbass republic Strelkov (Girkin) put in very popular russian social web-site Vkontakte the following posts (see here http://www.peeep.us/4857cec5 and here http://www.archive.today/gxzhN#selection-252.0-754.0. dead link He wrote: "Today we shoot down AN-26 airplane. We have told NOT to fly under our sky". Of course this post later was removed, but some people saved it. It is prove, that pro-russian-separratist are engaged in this incident. Of course, the statements on Russian, but you can easily translate it. M.Karelin ( talk) 20:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Excuse me. This profile in Vk.com is fake. Strelkov doesnt have any official accounts in social media (except one forum) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.68.183.184 ( talk) 21:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I removed the following from the article, because the Strelkov attribution seems false (even if cited in csmonitor). The claim doesn't really have much weight with attribution:
On July 17 near the village of Rassypnoye over the Torez city in Donetsk region an An-26 transport plane of Ukrainian Air Force was taken down, said the militia. According to them, the plane crashed somewhere near the "Progress" mine, away from residential areas. According to one of the militias, at approximately 17:30 local time an An-26 flew over the city. It was hit by a rocket, there was an explosion and the plane went to the ground, leaving a black smoke. Debris fell from the sky
The Strelkov post reads more like armchair speculation about what is shown in the video than an official communication from a commander. Dincidentone know where these videos can be seen? Chappell ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:41, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Sounds like a bit of wp:Original research and wp:speculation going on here. We have to go by what wp: Reliable sources say and this incident is only about <31 hours ago (1 day, 6 hours, ≈37 mins). so just about everything we 'know' about it may change in coming days.-- 220 of Borg 06:38, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
There was a link to a YouTube posting Ukraine's claimed wiretaps. That link was deleted just a short time ago by an editor that questioned its authenticity. Should we link to it, or not link to it? Geogene ( talk) 23:42, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
{{
YouTube}}
.
Dustin
(talk) 23:50, 18 July 2014 (UTC)I just totaled up the passenger count, and it adds to 303, NOT 298. Just curious to know if some of these are being counted twice due to "dual citizenship." Or is the count off (for a reason)? 173.188.166.203 ( talk) 04:03, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
In this edit the reaction of Romania was removed, together with that of Latvia. As Romania borders Ukraine, surely the inclusion of a reponse is quite relevant and appropriate. Is there a consensus as to what constitutes an "involved" country in this incident? Martinevans123 ( talk) 12:07, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Should we add in the response section that Ukrainian and Russian citizens spontaneously brought flowers to Dutch and Malaysian embassies in Kiev and Moscow. [18] [19] [20] [21] Arnoutf ( talk) 16:46, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
So, can the reaction of Romania, removed in this edit, be restored? Sweden and Latvia am less sure about. India has already been restored. Martinevans123 ( talk) 21:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, need to add my opinion as this article seems a bit bizarrely laid out in the response section, albeit I suspect this article will be heavily trafficed with edit wars. The international section as of the time I've seen it is bizarre - the countries involved are Malaysia, Ukraine and Russia, and a random person. What criteria are being used to decide which countries are in this section? Surely since most of the passengers were Dutch, and the plane took off from Holland, the Dutch opinion should be there? Also there is the strong suspicion that Russia is involved, can you prove it to the point that it is put in the countries involved section, or is this becoming POV? Last part (and I'm not an expert on Ukranian politics apart from random aprts I see on this news), why quote this Igor Girkin person - is he reliable? Or do you accept that the Donbass people's republic is a legitimate political entitity and so quote the leader of it instead? Some of the news suggests these people are Ukranian, but speak Russian, rather than Russian in Ukraine. These are all important points if you want to strive for impartiality and truth. On the other countries section there was a bit where India and China comment, and now not there - explanation to this? Again who judges who gets to get quoted on wikipedia? Especially when some of the reporting suggests that they are important in bearing pressure on Russia. Could it be further separated with countries with passengers on board, then other countries and international bodies (as the UN really isn't a country). - Master Of Ninja ( talk) 08:08, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
The separatists in question appear to have given their side of the story, extremely bizarrely (!) suggesting that the plane was already full of dead bodies before being shot down. (Source: [25]). Regardless of my personal opinion of the claims, we should probably add it somewhere to the page. 140.180.253.174 ( talk) 20:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Having had some experience as a taxidermist (of non-humans, that is), I can tell you that it is not the body itself that starts to decompose and smell, it is the food it has eaten and has started to digest. That starts to decompose and smell within a couple of hours, meat so much worse than vegetables. Much to my surprise, all of this is not commonly known. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.118.138 ( talk) 08:17, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Is it appropriate to separate dual citizens? The passengers by nationality table currently has one dual Dutch-Belgian citizen & the US state dept spokeswoman tweeted about a dual US-Dutch citizen. Are these people usually separated? Should they be included in the totals for each of their citizenship with a footnote (eg. "Includes persons with multiple citizenship"), although that would make the table not add up to the total at the bottom? AHeneen ( talk) 17:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Vavilevskii ( talk) 02:35, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
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Please, add the following infromation:
On 18 July Russian Defense Ministry spokesman reported to journalists that "Russian radar facilities during 17 July detected work of 9S18 "Kupol" (radar station of detection and targeting for 9K37-1 SAM "Buk-M1" squadron), stationed near ukrainian-controlled village Styla (30 km south of Donetsk)", and stressed, that MH17 was shot down in the affected area of the ukrainian SAM "Buk-M1" batteries, stationed at Avdiyivka (8 km north of Donetsk) and Gruzsko-Zaryanskoe (25 km east of Donetsk), while Russian air defense systems were not deployed in the border area that day and the air force did not commit sorties, adding that "This information is fully confirmed by means of objective control" [1]
It also remains unclear, even if the separatists were able to fix the captured 9K37-1 SAM "Buk-M1" and then not having 9S18 "Kupol" SDT system, which is separate facility of the squadron, could "Buk-M1" shoot at a target at an altitude of 10 km, using own onboard radar system 9C35, which is covering only ±60° in azimuth and 0-7° in elevation, as simple geometric calculations says that at this elevation angle "Buk-M1" had to be located at 80 km far from the aircraft, and the maximum missiles range is only 30 km (covers maximum altitude of ~3-3.5 km, and this number is indicated as the lowerest range distance of "Buk-M1"). Vavilevskii ( talk) 00:49, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
@ Iryna Harpy: The sources just mentioned that the radar of the launcher weaker than radar system "Kupol" and its range - less. But the exact technical data about altitude - contained nowhere. Probably because in Russia this type of old radars was never been used. Anyway, the missile is equipped with striking elements in the form of shrapnel, and more than 10 kg of explosives, so that traces of them in a variety must be found in cladding soon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vavilevskii ( talk • contribs) 02:35, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
What exactly is meant by the term "deadliest attack" involving a single aircraft in aviation history? If you're referring to the deliberate destruction of a commercial airliner, that distinction would fall to Air India Flight 182, which was blown up by a terrorist bomb, killing 329. It is the deadliest shoot-down of a commercial airliner in history (i.e brought down by a military or armed forces unit). - E. Brown
Any way to integrate what is being reported here into the Wikipedia article? Inthefastlane ( talk) 21:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
This should be added / noted shortly in the article or linked to a different article as it is indeed noteworthy/ newswothy and could be seen as an indication of any indirect or indirect involvement in the shotdown 46.7.56.247 ( talk) 21:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)M.
I found a second source: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/18/russia-edits-mh17-wikipedia-article . Ars Technica reposted the article on its site where I first found it. I am linking to the Wired UK link because that is the original version. Jesse Viviano ( talk) 00:06, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
"13 July 2014: Sergey Kurginyan declared that Buk launchers taken over from Ukrainian army were going to be fixed soon by specialists from Russia"
The only reference is a video on Youtube. I googled, and did not find something that confirmed in any "popular" site, only forums and 4chan. Keplerbr ( talk) 06:26, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
According to the BBC News site the UK AAIB is sending a team of six accident investigators that are due to arrive in Kiev on Saturday; [26] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.208.91 ( talk) 09:06, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
There is an Romanian-canadian on the Malaysia Airlines flifht 17. http://www.rri.ro/en_gb/july_18_2014_update-20092 http://www.mediafax.ro/social/pe-lista-pasagerilor-din-avionul-prabusit-in-ucraina-se-afla-un-roman-cu-dubla-cetatenie-student-in-anul-ii-la-umf-cluj-12941493 the second site is in romanian but translate with google translate in english.
I found myself to be eager to immediately alter the numbers on the "People on board by nationality" (the latest news over here, in the Netherlands, is that is 192 losses). However, I reckon it a guiding point for everyone over here, to take the numbers given by Malaysian Airlines. That also includes the nationality of those on board. I'd say we stick with what Malaysian Airlines realeses, concerning this. Unless multiple other sources say otherwise, may we agree on this?
Agreed. Also, is the American-Dutch counted in both the Netherlands and US count? If so, shouldn't the Malaysian-Hong Kong citizen be included in a Hong Kong section? If not, then again the numbers don't add up. Assuming the lower number for the disputed countries, the numbers add up to 302 not 298. Anthonyliu ( talk) 22:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
「Robster1983」 ☞ Life's short, talk fast ☜ 21:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
How to classify people with dual nationality? 1.9.122.144 ( talk) 22:19, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I think they are classified by whatever their current home country is.-- Empire of War ( talk) 22:24, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
In this case, how to confirm which is their home country if they have dual citizenship? For example, one has US citizenship and any other country citizenship? 1.9.122.144 ( talk) 22:32, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The reasonable thing to do is count the USAmerican-Dutch and Malaysian-PRChina(HK) citizens twice, and add a note to explain why the total of per-country numbers adds to more than the total number of people. Boud ( talk) 22:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Currently the Reactions section is split into 'Countries Involved', containing reactions from Malaysia, Netherlands, Russia, Ukraine, the Rebels and the EU, and 'International', containing reactions from Australia, Belgium, Canada, China, Germany, Hungary, India, Indonesia, New Zealand, Philippines, South Africa, Tanzania, UK, the US and the UN. I don't see why it even needs to be split into two sections, and in addition to this, the titles of the sub-sections are misleading because many of the countries in the 'International' section are actually involved in the disaster. I think there should be just one list of reactions, containing only countries from which relevant and notable reactions have been given. I'm not sure exactly how to define what should be included and what shouldn't, but countries which were home to victims would be a starting point and any other countries/organisations with a significant involvement in the events (such as Ukraine, Russia, UN...) could be added to it. But reactions from countries like India, Hungary, South Africa, and Tanzania aren't particularly notable and, unless it is revealed that they were home to victims, they should probably be removed because the section is becoming too long and unencyclopedic. Oakleigh Park 03:13, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Please, add Hungarian goverment's statement:
As we all know, Pprune is not a RS, but it is a useful research tool. Post #369 on the discussion thread has some interesting links that give some background to the alleged possession of BUKs by the rebels. Will leave it open as to whether or not the info should be added to the article, Mjroots ( talk) 18:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The article quotes Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema as saying the militants don't have BUK systems. The original quote appeared in the Kyiv Post and actually said: "Members of illegal armed units have not seized air defense launchers of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Donetsk, Ukrainian Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema said".
That's a big difference from saying rebels don't have them at all. Instead he is saying they don't have Ukrainian BUK assets. The article should be updated to accurately reflect his quote.
ref: https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukrainian-prosecutor-general-says-militants-did-not-seize-ukrainian-air-defense-launchers-356619.html 154.20.228.233 ( talk) 19:14, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
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Here is a source for the Israeli victim [1] Bonus88 ( talk) 19:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Done –
United States Man (
talk) 19:27, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
This section seems unnecessary. There's just two times listed and unlikely to be many more noteworthy events. This isn't like MH370, where there were many events and such a listing is useful. On this article, those two times can be easily found in the article's text. AHeneen ( talk) 18:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I don't understand the edit warring. I know that this matter needs discussion. Whether the timeline of flight is useful should be discussed here. I don't want users to be banned or blocked over this matter. -- George Ho ( talk) 19:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
"However, the militants later denied free access to the crash site to OSCE team on August 18." Should that not read "July 18"? 184.147.239.218 ( talk) 20:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
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Here is a source for the Belgian victims: 6 belgian nationals: 4 belgian nationals resident in belgium, 1 belgian national resident in australia and 1 dual Belgian-Dutch national resident in Belgium (already counted by the dutch victims). [1] Neander1 ( talk) 19:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Done. -
84user (
talk) 20:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
As this source suggests, this seems to be the first time an airline crash has ever had to have been investigated in a war zone. Maybe this point should be made explicitly? Martinevans123 ( talk) 22:28, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
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Could someone please put flag icons in the "Reactions" section near the comments of each respective representative, and make sure they STAY THERE? Thanks, 24.201.213.251 ( talk) 19:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Several people have attempted to add a statement to Igor Girkin stating that he has taken claim for the attack, which so far hasn't been confirmed in any reliable source (all that's confirmed right now is that he had claimed on Facebook to have shot down an An-26 earlier today, but has since deleted this post). So any extra eyes on this BLP would be appreciated. SheepNotGoats ( talk) 18:56, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Could we not use european sources that are reliable? It is probably more than likely that Igor Girkin shot down the airplane as he shot down the Antonov An-26 half an hour earlier in the same area, but that post was later deleted by him. http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/805200-igor-girkin-commander-of-donetsk-peoples-army-igor-strelkov-says-they-shot-down-malaysia-airlines-mh17-photos/, so who knows should we wait for more US sources to put this out? Martinillo ( talk) 19:43, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
There's already been a lot of bad IP edits at Girkin's article (vandalism, unsourced, and badly-sourced stuff). As it's a BLP, is it worth semi-protecting it? (especially since there are far fewer people watching that article than there are here) SheepNotGoats ( talk) 20:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I'd like to draw some attention to the explanation posted in Girkin's group where the info about the downed plane originated from:
I hope someone will add this explanation to the article to clear some things up. Доктор Хаос ( talk) 22:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Strelkov dont have any site or any facebook/vk/etc accounts. He post some info and comments from beginning of conflict here http://forum-antikvariat.ru/topic/204348-%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5-%D1%81%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%81-%D1%8E%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D1%84%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0/ . This forum is linked to his hobby. All other sites take info from this forum. One month ago Strelkov made video statement ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBst_w0eOS0 ) about "official" site icorpus.ru . Site ikorpus.ru is fake. All facebook/vk are fake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.213.240.205 ( talk) 08:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I've removed the fatality/survivor count from the article, as it was reading "Fatalities: 295; Survivors: 295", which looks rather jarring. As we don't know anything yet, just the number of people on the plane is sufficient. Microchip08 ( talk) 16:32, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
The number of Dutch dead is 192 [ [3]] One of the Dutch victems also has an american nationality. Sorced! [1] The Northaptonshire pins ( talk) 19:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC).
The current structure and order is convoluted and there is no authoritative Cause until the investigation is completed (personally, I've heard the tapes and think it was the militia). NPOV can be waaaay better than this and the article needs to be properly structured if it is to get better. JBVaughan ( talk) 23:06, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I have just added the following paragraph but it was reverted by @ John: as "badly written, badly sourced". Can you please explain in more details and fix the paragraph instead of deleting it? I attempted to collect the most prominent stories from Russian media as this is what is being reported on large scale in Russia right now. Pawel Krawczyk ( talk) 11:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
On 18 July Russian Defence Ministry declared that during the time of the crash "anti-aircraft units of Russian Federation did not operate in that area" but claimed that Ukrainian "Buk-M1" units were located north-west from Donetsk and that Russian units detected their radar activity.[1] RT suggested that air control should not have allowed MH17 through the conflict zone and additionally the route from 17 July was diverted by 200 km north compared to usual routes.[2] RIA suggested that similarities exist to Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 that was erroneously shot down by Ukrainian missile during anti-aircraft training in 2001.[3] DPR representatives changed their position, initially announcing that they shot down a military An-26 transport aircraft[4], then claiming they had no missiles to reach 10 km level when it became evident it was MH17[5], and then claimed that they had witnessed an Ukrainian fighter Su-25 shot down the Boeing.[6] Gazeta.ru pointed out inconsistencies in stories by other Russian media and wrote that both sides of the conflict, Ukraine and DNR, were in posession of "Buk" missiles and that the Su-25 theories are unreliable since the fighter's service ceiling is 5 km.[7]
Thanks to both of you - just adding reworked version. Pawel Krawczyk ( talk) 12:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Russia Today also reports that Ukrainian Buk was operational at the time when the airplane was downed ( Source).-- Kiril Simeonovski ( talk) 13:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
It's amazing that verified, soured and factual evidence is provided from multiple unbiased sources around the world show that Russian controlled separatist forces were responsible for the missile attack on a civilian passenger plane and yet you genuinely think solely Russian state media controlled sources, that even admit in many instances they have NO EVIDENCE TO VERIFY THEIR CLAIMS, should be included or even believed because they simply say "Ukraine forces were in the area! Sure we have no proof but you should trust us". 106.68.82.41 ( talk) 01:07, 19 July 2014 (UTC) Harlequin
Eyewitness accounts from the ground of what happens at 10,000 meters are rare...
Can I ask editors not to immediately put NPOV tags and the like on this article? Please propose your specific changes (with sources) here and discuss for at least 24 hours or so before resorting to this. Thank you. -- John ( talk) 13:11, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4HJmev5xg0 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5NSSzYygk. User Causantin incorrect in assuming that radar on launch vehicle is enough to properly use full 3+ vehicle Buk system. See http://www.janes.com/article/40902/civilian-airliner-crashes-in-ukraine-believed-to-have-been-shot-down However, no major news outlets have picked up on the YT videos yet, and they are not normally good sources for Wikipedia. Oathed ( talk) 16:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The words "claim" and "alleged" appeared quite often in the article, I've replaced them with "said" as much as possible per WP:CLAIM. In one case the wording I used, in regards to the Ukrainian wiretaps, still implies some doubt. Geogene ( talk) 19:19, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Why was McCain's statement about "bringing hell to Russia" removed from the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.201.213.251 ( talk) 03:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
So John McCain is a minor politician which means you have a lot to learn about U.S. politics. Russia and Mr. Putin are very much involved with this tragedy. I noticed you are a recent college graduate so I understand that your are VERY naive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.12.111.217 ( talk) 00:28, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
There is a conspiracy theory that Putin's plane was the intended target, which was readded to the article. [11] This is based on similar colors and the planes supposedly having been close at some point (but which is itself apparently based on contradictory reports.) The RT ref notes that Putin (obviously) wouldn't be flying over Ukraine. I think it is WP:UNDUE to include in the article. 9kat ( talk) 16:22, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The report that Putin's plane was misidentified by Ukrainian jets appeared on Channel One Russia , the country's most popular TV network, so we should not call the sources fringe. They are, in fact, quite mainstream. But they can be both mainstream and unreliable if there is a deliberate state media propaganda effort at work.-- Brian Dell ( talk) 02:27, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
It equals 299 in the deaths by nationality box if you do the math, yet the infobox says 298. WikiWinters ( talk) 17:12, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
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I know what "pro-Russia" means: it means proponent or supporter of Russia. What exactly does "pro-Russian" mean? -- 50.46.245.232 ( talk) 02:07, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Is there any reason to call this an act of terrorism? The evidence suggests this was an unintentional downing of an airliner by pro-Russia separatists who mistook it for a An-26 or similar plane. What is fundamentally different about this incident compared to the incidents involving Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 or Iran Air Flight 655? I also don't think the category War crimes is appropriate for these reasons. -- 50.46.245.232 ( talk) 19:26, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
How did we get those figures? The current source says nothing about 149 Dutch, ...US, ...UK etc. These figures have no reference, they might as well have been put in at random. Can somebody show a link to a reliable source or are we presenting speculation as fact? Nathan121212 ( talk) 21:03, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
"Aan boord zaten 283 passagiers en 15 bemanningsleden. Van 47 mensen is de identiteit of de nationaliteit nog niet geweten. Aan boord waren zeker 154 Nederlanders en 4 Belgen. Verder zaten er 27 Australiërs aan boord, 23 Maleisiërs, 11 Indonesiërs, 6 Britten, 4 Duitsers, 3 Filipijnen en 1 Canadees." (translation: "On board were 283 passengers and 15 crew members. Of 47 people, the identity or nationality is not yet known. Aboard were at least 154 Dutch and 4 Belgians. Beyond that, there were 27 Australians on board, 23 Malaysians, 11 Indonesians, 6 Brits, 4 Germans, 3 Filipinos and a Canadian.") AddWittyNameHere ( talk) 21:10, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
There is no confirmation yet that any Americans were on board. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 23:03, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
A HKSAR passport holder was aboard on flight MH17 confirmed by Hong Kong Immigration Department. Please add it to the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevincmh71 ( talk • contribs) 05:15, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Julie Bishop (Australian Foreign Minister) just confirmed on a live news interview that 28 Australians were on the flight. I guess there will be an official announcement later today StuB63 ( talk) 06:12, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
www.adevarul.ro stated that the canadian victim was of Romanian nationality, having aquired the Canadian one later. They had a background check on the individual. The source of the article: http://adevarul.ro/locale/cluj-napoca/un-student-clujean-murit-accidentul-aviatic-ucraina-1_53c8fb4d0d133766a88ace9c/index.html
––––––You are right. He was studying at UMF in Cluj-Napoca, Romania. Cristi767 ( talk) 21:06, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
What about these freak coincidences do they desrve being mentioned, crew couple swapped flights oh MH17 and MH370 with colleagues http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/19/Stewardess-who-switched-with-colleague-lucky-but-not-hubby Australian family struck twice by MH incidents http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/18/MH17-aust-couple-also-lost-relatives-on-MH370. 175.110.222.144 ( talk) 05:13, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Confirmed. Can it be corrected in the article? Normalgirl ( talk) 23:00, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
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The table of nationalities is incorrect. According to the source listed, there were only 27 Austrailians, and no one from South Africa. Also, the numbers don't add up right now. The total of the people listed right now is 300, instead of 298. http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html 99.247.141.23 ( talk) 14:30, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
This should be added to the part next to the wiretap recordings. The article with video says: "Secret surveillance units of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry this morning have recorded a caterpillar tractor with the Buk missile system on it, moving via Krasnodon towards Russia," which is missing one missile. This has been picked up the media, examples: [12] [13] [14] [15] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yetyetnono ( talk • contribs) 23:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I believe the BUK was missing 2 missiles and was seen heading towards the Russian border at high speed. This would be consistent with the 2 planes(1 cargo and the other the passenger plane) being shot down. The pro Russian rebels have already claimed responsibility for the cargo plane shooting.
The "Minister of Defence" of such called Donbass republic Strelkov (Girkin) put in very popular russian social web-site Vkontakte the following posts (see here http://www.peeep.us/4857cec5 and here http://www.archive.today/gxzhN#selection-252.0-754.0. dead link He wrote: "Today we shoot down AN-26 airplane. We have told NOT to fly under our sky". Of course this post later was removed, but some people saved it. It is prove, that pro-russian-separratist are engaged in this incident. Of course, the statements on Russian, but you can easily translate it. M.Karelin ( talk) 20:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Excuse me. This profile in Vk.com is fake. Strelkov doesnt have any official accounts in social media (except one forum) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.68.183.184 ( talk) 21:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I removed the following from the article, because the Strelkov attribution seems false (even if cited in csmonitor). The claim doesn't really have much weight with attribution:
On July 17 near the village of Rassypnoye over the Torez city in Donetsk region an An-26 transport plane of Ukrainian Air Force was taken down, said the militia. According to them, the plane crashed somewhere near the "Progress" mine, away from residential areas. According to one of the militias, at approximately 17:30 local time an An-26 flew over the city. It was hit by a rocket, there was an explosion and the plane went to the ground, leaving a black smoke. Debris fell from the sky
The Strelkov post reads more like armchair speculation about what is shown in the video than an official communication from a commander. Dincidentone know where these videos can be seen? Chappell ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 02:41, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Sounds like a bit of wp:Original research and wp:speculation going on here. We have to go by what wp: Reliable sources say and this incident is only about <31 hours ago (1 day, 6 hours, ≈37 mins). so just about everything we 'know' about it may change in coming days.-- 220 of Borg 06:38, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
There was a link to a YouTube posting Ukraine's claimed wiretaps. That link was deleted just a short time ago by an editor that questioned its authenticity. Should we link to it, or not link to it? Geogene ( talk) 23:42, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
{{
YouTube}}
.
Dustin
(talk) 23:50, 18 July 2014 (UTC)I just totaled up the passenger count, and it adds to 303, NOT 298. Just curious to know if some of these are being counted twice due to "dual citizenship." Or is the count off (for a reason)? 173.188.166.203 ( talk) 04:03, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
In this edit the reaction of Romania was removed, together with that of Latvia. As Romania borders Ukraine, surely the inclusion of a reponse is quite relevant and appropriate. Is there a consensus as to what constitutes an "involved" country in this incident? Martinevans123 ( talk) 12:07, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Should we add in the response section that Ukrainian and Russian citizens spontaneously brought flowers to Dutch and Malaysian embassies in Kiev and Moscow. [18] [19] [20] [21] Arnoutf ( talk) 16:46, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
So, can the reaction of Romania, removed in this edit, be restored? Sweden and Latvia am less sure about. India has already been restored. Martinevans123 ( talk) 21:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, need to add my opinion as this article seems a bit bizarrely laid out in the response section, albeit I suspect this article will be heavily trafficed with edit wars. The international section as of the time I've seen it is bizarre - the countries involved are Malaysia, Ukraine and Russia, and a random person. What criteria are being used to decide which countries are in this section? Surely since most of the passengers were Dutch, and the plane took off from Holland, the Dutch opinion should be there? Also there is the strong suspicion that Russia is involved, can you prove it to the point that it is put in the countries involved section, or is this becoming POV? Last part (and I'm not an expert on Ukranian politics apart from random aprts I see on this news), why quote this Igor Girkin person - is he reliable? Or do you accept that the Donbass people's republic is a legitimate political entitity and so quote the leader of it instead? Some of the news suggests these people are Ukranian, but speak Russian, rather than Russian in Ukraine. These are all important points if you want to strive for impartiality and truth. On the other countries section there was a bit where India and China comment, and now not there - explanation to this? Again who judges who gets to get quoted on wikipedia? Especially when some of the reporting suggests that they are important in bearing pressure on Russia. Could it be further separated with countries with passengers on board, then other countries and international bodies (as the UN really isn't a country). - Master Of Ninja ( talk) 08:08, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
The separatists in question appear to have given their side of the story, extremely bizarrely (!) suggesting that the plane was already full of dead bodies before being shot down. (Source: [25]). Regardless of my personal opinion of the claims, we should probably add it somewhere to the page. 140.180.253.174 ( talk) 20:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Having had some experience as a taxidermist (of non-humans, that is), I can tell you that it is not the body itself that starts to decompose and smell, it is the food it has eaten and has started to digest. That starts to decompose and smell within a couple of hours, meat so much worse than vegetables. Much to my surprise, all of this is not commonly known. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.166.118.138 ( talk) 08:17, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Is it appropriate to separate dual citizens? The passengers by nationality table currently has one dual Dutch-Belgian citizen & the US state dept spokeswoman tweeted about a dual US-Dutch citizen. Are these people usually separated? Should they be included in the totals for each of their citizenship with a footnote (eg. "Includes persons with multiple citizenship"), although that would make the table not add up to the total at the bottom? AHeneen ( talk) 17:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Vavilevskii ( talk) 02:35, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
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Please, add the following infromation:
On 18 July Russian Defense Ministry spokesman reported to journalists that "Russian radar facilities during 17 July detected work of 9S18 "Kupol" (radar station of detection and targeting for 9K37-1 SAM "Buk-M1" squadron), stationed near ukrainian-controlled village Styla (30 km south of Donetsk)", and stressed, that MH17 was shot down in the affected area of the ukrainian SAM "Buk-M1" batteries, stationed at Avdiyivka (8 km north of Donetsk) and Gruzsko-Zaryanskoe (25 km east of Donetsk), while Russian air defense systems were not deployed in the border area that day and the air force did not commit sorties, adding that "This information is fully confirmed by means of objective control" [1]
It also remains unclear, even if the separatists were able to fix the captured 9K37-1 SAM "Buk-M1" and then not having 9S18 "Kupol" SDT system, which is separate facility of the squadron, could "Buk-M1" shoot at a target at an altitude of 10 km, using own onboard radar system 9C35, which is covering only ±60° in azimuth and 0-7° in elevation, as simple geometric calculations says that at this elevation angle "Buk-M1" had to be located at 80 km far from the aircraft, and the maximum missiles range is only 30 km (covers maximum altitude of ~3-3.5 km, and this number is indicated as the lowerest range distance of "Buk-M1"). Vavilevskii ( talk) 00:49, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
@ Iryna Harpy: The sources just mentioned that the radar of the launcher weaker than radar system "Kupol" and its range - less. But the exact technical data about altitude - contained nowhere. Probably because in Russia this type of old radars was never been used. Anyway, the missile is equipped with striking elements in the form of shrapnel, and more than 10 kg of explosives, so that traces of them in a variety must be found in cladding soon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vavilevskii ( talk • contribs) 02:35, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
What exactly is meant by the term "deadliest attack" involving a single aircraft in aviation history? If you're referring to the deliberate destruction of a commercial airliner, that distinction would fall to Air India Flight 182, which was blown up by a terrorist bomb, killing 329. It is the deadliest shoot-down of a commercial airliner in history (i.e brought down by a military or armed forces unit). - E. Brown
Any way to integrate what is being reported here into the Wikipedia article? Inthefastlane ( talk) 21:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
This should be added / noted shortly in the article or linked to a different article as it is indeed noteworthy/ newswothy and could be seen as an indication of any indirect or indirect involvement in the shotdown 46.7.56.247 ( talk) 21:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)M.
I found a second source: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/18/russia-edits-mh17-wikipedia-article . Ars Technica reposted the article on its site where I first found it. I am linking to the Wired UK link because that is the original version. Jesse Viviano ( talk) 00:06, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
"13 July 2014: Sergey Kurginyan declared that Buk launchers taken over from Ukrainian army were going to be fixed soon by specialists from Russia"
The only reference is a video on Youtube. I googled, and did not find something that confirmed in any "popular" site, only forums and 4chan. Keplerbr ( talk) 06:26, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
According to the BBC News site the UK AAIB is sending a team of six accident investigators that are due to arrive in Kiev on Saturday; [26] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.208.91 ( talk) 09:06, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
There is an Romanian-canadian on the Malaysia Airlines flifht 17. http://www.rri.ro/en_gb/july_18_2014_update-20092 http://www.mediafax.ro/social/pe-lista-pasagerilor-din-avionul-prabusit-in-ucraina-se-afla-un-roman-cu-dubla-cetatenie-student-in-anul-ii-la-umf-cluj-12941493 the second site is in romanian but translate with google translate in english.
I found myself to be eager to immediately alter the numbers on the "People on board by nationality" (the latest news over here, in the Netherlands, is that is 192 losses). However, I reckon it a guiding point for everyone over here, to take the numbers given by Malaysian Airlines. That also includes the nationality of those on board. I'd say we stick with what Malaysian Airlines realeses, concerning this. Unless multiple other sources say otherwise, may we agree on this?
Agreed. Also, is the American-Dutch counted in both the Netherlands and US count? If so, shouldn't the Malaysian-Hong Kong citizen be included in a Hong Kong section? If not, then again the numbers don't add up. Assuming the lower number for the disputed countries, the numbers add up to 302 not 298. Anthonyliu ( talk) 22:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
「Robster1983」 ☞ Life's short, talk fast ☜ 21:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
How to classify people with dual nationality? 1.9.122.144 ( talk) 22:19, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I think they are classified by whatever their current home country is.-- Empire of War ( talk) 22:24, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
In this case, how to confirm which is their home country if they have dual citizenship? For example, one has US citizenship and any other country citizenship? 1.9.122.144 ( talk) 22:32, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The reasonable thing to do is count the USAmerican-Dutch and Malaysian-PRChina(HK) citizens twice, and add a note to explain why the total of per-country numbers adds to more than the total number of people. Boud ( talk) 22:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Currently the Reactions section is split into 'Countries Involved', containing reactions from Malaysia, Netherlands, Russia, Ukraine, the Rebels and the EU, and 'International', containing reactions from Australia, Belgium, Canada, China, Germany, Hungary, India, Indonesia, New Zealand, Philippines, South Africa, Tanzania, UK, the US and the UN. I don't see why it even needs to be split into two sections, and in addition to this, the titles of the sub-sections are misleading because many of the countries in the 'International' section are actually involved in the disaster. I think there should be just one list of reactions, containing only countries from which relevant and notable reactions have been given. I'm not sure exactly how to define what should be included and what shouldn't, but countries which were home to victims would be a starting point and any other countries/organisations with a significant involvement in the events (such as Ukraine, Russia, UN...) could be added to it. But reactions from countries like India, Hungary, South Africa, and Tanzania aren't particularly notable and, unless it is revealed that they were home to victims, they should probably be removed because the section is becoming too long and unencyclopedic. Oakleigh Park 03:13, 19 July 2014 (UTC)