This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Magic in the Greco-Roman world article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
}}
It seems that this article is merely a dump of a research paper. Peter O. ( Talk) 15:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Even if this page is overflowing with seemingly useless hyperlinks, it nevertheless yields in some part accurate information. In addition, the Hellenistic period needs to make references to the origins of Hermeticism to at least some extent. The organization and contextualization, however, are my chief concerns.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.24.148 ( talk • contribs)
The article works well as a template, continuing modifications should bring the article up to a good standard. (84.9.143.173)
Lol, good one Smith Jones, the irony is appreciated.(84.9.143.173)
It's slightly irritating me how long the content is. Can someone condense it? They don't have to have to have extensive knowledge on the topic, it's just summarising each topic, yes? I'm afraid I don't have the literary skill to do it myself. 90.202.14.46 ( talk) 20:41, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't say that the information is entirely accurate. I think that saying that the practice of magic was a part of everyday life is an overstatement. It was only practiced(if at all practiced) by marginal members of society. People went to sorcerers if they felt that their child had been bewitched. Magic was practiced by people who believed there were ways to control nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicoya730 ( talk • contribs) 06:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I would have to track down references, but to my knowledge the employment of magic was fairly widespread. To give you some idea, one of the most common applications for magic charms was not healing severe illness or any such extreme situation, but rather ensuring the success of the chariot team one supported in the regular chariot races. I believe the intro to the Greek Magical Papyri in Translation gives a bit more detail about this. Also, I don't think that the normal ritual procedures of the state religions are intended to be included under the definition of magic here, and in fact the article's lead section makes that explicit. If there's anything in the article that's actually referring to rituals of the state religion, then please point them out. Cheers, Fuzzypeg ★ 02:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
“ | It takes a lot of gall to insist I provide "something concrete to work with" when I have been the one providing references to works about the actual history of ancient Greece, Greek religion, and philosophy | ” |
If anything, the sources you quote support the opposite point (except generic ones like the Adkins book, which no Classical scholar would be caught dead citing above a freshman-level class, and even then it'd be dubious): That magical practices existed under most all eras of Greek and Roman civilization up through Christianity.
Also, you keep saying "what the Greeks saw as magic". What the Greeks saw is irrelevant here. Insisting on defining "magic" by what the Greeks themselves reckoned is by definition POV, so the one straying from NPOV tone here is you, not your detractors. Voudou practitioners might reject the idea that what they're doing is magic. It doesn't matter. Anthropologists will note but generally ignore a subject's opinion of themselves. I mean, it can be mentioned that XXXX is something the Greeks did not consider to be magic, but hey, if you are trying to effect change in the world (whether or not it is "guaranteed"), then what you are doing is magic, just the same as when priests claim that wine is turned into literal blood, that is magic. Ford MF ( talk) 14:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I started to examine the reference for this article, and I do not believe many of the sources were ever used in the creation of the article. This is not the first time I have noticed a large list of references created to bolster an article in hopes they will not be verified. I will give an opportunity to add page reverences to the individual works to specify where they re related to an this article before I begin deleting. One of the first sources I questioned and pulled made no reference at all to magic, or the assertions made in the article. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 15:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Reference 1 - links to a BNET article that no longer exists. The book listed has 5 volumes, none are listed in the reference, neither are page numbers, ok to delete as is misleading at best? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightowl89j ( talk • contribs) 01:18, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Also, the reference I wanted more information about, the 3rd century magician's kit, leads to Perseus Lookup Tool. And when I use this tool, I find nothing. 69.253.158.202 ( talk)Chezzo Osman — Preceding undated comment added 13:39, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
Amazon says he's boring, but surely essential to the article? Which I agree, it's an essay. Stubify, start all over. You can't rewrite an essay to make it encyclopedia. Doug Weller ( talk) 14:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Since you both are obviously interested and invested in the article, would either of you mind perhaps weighing in on the debate above, as it just seems to be going in circles and is desperately in need of new blood. Ford MF ( talk) 18:31, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
If we remove every instance of personal interpretation, labeling divine intervention and other acts in primary source material as magic, it leaves a thin and incoherent section. I believe it should be deleted. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 19:39, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
The article does not support its own claims. It identifies both Orpheus and Pythagoras as theois aner, which he reports to translate to "divine man", but can be more correctly translated to "man of God." This is in the same light as other miracle workers. The main source labeling Empedocles as a magus does not make such a statement. There is nothing there to salvage. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 20:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous editor has been deleting substantial sections of text. I'm not convinced that these deletions are all warranted. There are indeed problems with some of the text, but and in light of our discussions above I'm worried that these deletions may be overzealous, POV-pushing, or disruption to prove a WP:POINT. The removed sections are:
The last sentence is uncited and vaguely refers to the "central tenets" of a magician, which does indeed sound dodgy, but the rest of the text is still usable, since Thorndike mentions the History of Animals as evidence "that Greek science at its best was not untainted by magic." (Lynn Thorndike, Place of Magic in the Intellectual History of Europe, p. 62.) For a more recent reference regarding this, see Luck's Arcana Mundi p. 43, where he states that this work shows an Aristotelian belief in astrology, a system of sympathies and antipathies, and (in principle at least) deamons.
I was going to try to copy a number of the deleted sections out here and comment on them, but several are quite difficult to extricate from the surrounding text, and quite clearly deleted unnecessarily, so I'll try to do some fix-ups in the article. I may deposit some more questionable sections here for comment. Fuzzypeg ★ 00:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
References
I need some other editors to help out here! User:151.201.149.209 has been making some fairly extensive deletions from the article and is pushing for even more sweeping alterations, which seem to be based entirely on WP:OR (see discussion above). I've been trying to hold things together, with a little help from a couple of other editors, but there's a limit to how much time I can spend on this. If you have any knowledge/expertise in this area, please jump in and help me out! Thanks, Fuzzypeg ★ 02:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Can everyone please remember that "there is no deadline"? This article has been sitting here for ages. Yes, it should be tagged as problematic, but once we've done that, the reader is warned to use it with extra caution, and we can take our good time to fix it. This isn't easy, since it will eat a lot of expert time. Random blankings aren't helpful if you don't know what you are doing. If you have the expertise, by all means start plodding away. If you don't, you'll need to acquaint yourself with the relevant literature before being able to make judicious estimates. This isn't a topic you can learn about in college or on popular websites: you really need to go to the academic literature directly. -- dab (𒁳) 09:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
note the main sub-articles at Greek magical papyri, Curse tablet and Ephesia Grammata, which seem less prone to uninformed additions. The literature section at present is cluttered with too much tangential material. Luck (1985) sounds like a good starting point. Searching for "Hellenistic magic" on amazon, I find the following promising titles:
these less-than-a-decade old titles should be useful for coming to terms with the general outline of the topic as it presents itself in current academia. -- dab (𒁳) 09:56, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I think 151.201.149.209 is a bit too eager to delete things. The article needs a lot of work, yes, but the IP seems to be operating with an unduly restricted definition of magic. The Oxford Classical Dictionary article on magic (signed by Hank Versnel) gives Circe as an example of a witch (not really surprising to anyone who's read the Odyssey) and names other classical sources.
Hm. I see that people have already mentioned the books Magika Hiera and Arcana Mundi as good secondary sources, and our IP says that "This article, like the books Magika Hiera and Arcana Mundi, spends a good bit of time validating calling practices magic that are not seen as magic." Never mind that those books were written by experts in the topic of ancient Greek magical practices...I think, perhaps, the IP has an axe to grind. --Akhilleus ( talk) 13:59, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I had deleted the Wisdom of Solomon because the sources noted did not validate. Fuzzypeg restored it adding citations to Arcana Mundi. The fact that Fuzzypeg was able to "validate" the information with Arcana Mundi is because the information comes directly from Arcana Mundi pages 57-59. The original contributor had even plagiarized that same butchered quote of D. Winston, trans. of The Wisdom of Solomon, which Fuzzypeg has only added a citation pointing to Luck's butchered quote of the text. This provides additional proof this essay nothing but a synopsis of the chapter called Magic from Arcana Mundi. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 15:41, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
The citation of Dodds' work does not validate the statement, "According to the Greek philosopher Plotinus (205-270 CE) theurgy aims at establishing sympathy in the universe and uses the forces that flow through all things in order to be in touch with them." I deleted it once, but it was restored without validation. In fact, the only quote on that page is from Proclus' Theology of Plato, which was in the article already, with no mention of Plotinus at all. Also, on pages 286 & 287, Dodds seems is stating Plotinus is not a theurgist by arguing against points others have made he was. There are also many other works that indicate Plotinus saw theurgy as lesser to contemplation, and a form of spirituality for the masses who were not capable of independently initiating a divine experience. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 17:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
This was found with a line-by-line analysis of the "Further defining types of magic" section. One plagiarized line was already mentioned talking about Plotinus. Starting on page page 51 of Arcana Mundi.
Arcana Mundi: Our material permits a division of magical operations into two man kinds, theurgical and goetic.
Article: In some texts that discuss magical practices, there are some interesting differentiations made between theurgical and goetic uses of power.
Arcana Mundi: The word theurgia calls for a brief explanation. In some contexts it appears to be simply a glorified kind of magic practiced by a highly respected priestlike figure, not an obscure magician.
Article: The word theurgia in some contexts appears simply to try and glorify the kind of magic that is being practiced – usually a respectable priest-like figure is associated with the ritual.
Arcana Mundi: In a typical theurgical rite the divinity appears in one of two ways: (1) it is seen in a trance, in which case the soul of the theurgist or medium leaves the body, ascends to heaven, sees the divinity there, and then returns to describe the experience; (2) it descends to earth and is seen by the theurgist either in a dream or when he is fully awake.
Article: Further, in a typical theurgical rite the divinity appears in one of two ways: 1. The spirit is seen in a trance, and the soul of the theurgist leaves the body, ascends to heaven, sees the divinity, and then returns to recount the experience and the knowledge learned from it. 2. The spirit descends to earth and is seen by the theurgist either in a dream or when he is fully awake.
Arcana Mundi: The philosophers interested in magic describe themselves as theurgists, and the lower-class practitioners as magoi or goetes.
Article: Thus it is not surprising to see philosophers interested in magic describe themselves as theurgists, to try and distinguish themselves from the lower-class practitioners - the magoi or goetes.
Arcana Mundi: Hence, it could be argued that the term theuria of late antiquity, who would have been horrified to be called Magoi or goetes, especially the latter, since that term could also designate a juggler or chrlatan..."
Article: The term goetia by contrast is derogative, indicating low, specious or fraudulent mageia in Greek, just as theurgia is a more exalted form of magic.
I think this seals the deal on this article. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 17:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
It's great that you've found these uncited statements. Very sloppy work from the original editor. The correct way ahead is to cite them to Luck, and either ensure that they're sufficiently paraphrased or else slap quotation marks around them and ensure that they're identical wording. I'll have a look-see and fix what I can. Fuzzypeg ★ 20:56, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I originally suggested this section "Homeric magic," be deleted because it represented original research, but it in fact is another example of the plagiarizing of Luck's book, mostly from pages 39-40. From page 41 to 44 is the section "Magic in Classical Greece", and "Magic in the Hellenistic period" is taken primarily from pages 44 to 51. Even Luck's quotes of other works, and citations. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 19:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
There was this line in the introduction:
It was a small edit, but the as today was removed because in the editor's opinion it was "obviously wrong." Did this statement fail verification, or is this just a person's opinion? While a 2001 Gallop Poll showed that 73% of Americans believed in some form of paranormal (clairvoyance, telepathy, ESP), only 21% believe that witches are really real. Additionally, it does not take much effort to find news articles regarding dissemination against Wiccans and other Neopagans. One prominent concept about discrimination is that it can only be perpetuated by the majority against the minority. Are we making judgments of what is "obviously wrong" based on our own inner-circle? Should we not try to verify cited statements before editing them? -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 16:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm willing to give Luck his just due credit. He is a professor at Harvard University, holds the chairmanship of the Classics Department at Boston College, and held the editor position of the American Journal of Philology for a year. He has had a decent career in the academic world, but nothing one could point to as so outstanding as to define his as THE definitive authority on Greco-Roman history and religion. The fact is, I would have never found the plagiarism, in this article, if the sections I initially deleted for failing source verification were not restored by someone citing Luck's Arcana Mundi, and then I tried to verify the "new" citations. The original contributor used Luck's quotes and citations of other sources as his own, and they were failing verification. This article is already basically nothing but a {{ onesource}} essay. Regarding the newest edits to the intro, that cite Luck, I have several sources in front of me that make quite the opposite conclusion to the statement "magic seems to have borrowed from religion." I know there are people working on this article who don't want it reduced to "magic in the Greco-Roman world was practiced by the fringe and disenfranchised of ancient society," or "magic in the Greco-Roman world was defined as superstitious or unscrupulous irreligious ritual practices," and I am sensitive to that, but even the article as-is suggests that the ancient holy-men and philosophers (that this article wants identify as magicians) would have seriously rejected the ideas being promoted here, and that suggestion comes straight from Luck's book itself. If this article is to move way from being "a personal reflection or essay" to being a balanced and correctly weighted encyclopedic article, it will need serious editing, not just the addition of citations in an attempt to keep the article as-is, keeping the occultist worldview dominate. As is, this article " departs significantly from mainstream or orthodox theories" on Greek history, religion, and philosophy, despite what some may want to think. From Wikipedia's content guidelines: "Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikimedia principle and a cornerstone of Wikipedia; all significant views are represented fairly and without bias, with representation in proportion to their prominence." Note, with representation in proportion to their prominence. It is glaring obvious with some of the editing, such as the former the "Further defining types of magic" title being changed to "High and low magic", that undue weight is given both to the occultist worldview on this subject and (with other editing) to Luck's writing. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 13:38, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I have given the article a more adequate lead section, and restructured the early sections (before the main historical material). I have cut nothing out. Charles Matthews ( talk) 11:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Plotinus is a theurgist, people on the talk page think the first edition of Arcana Mundi is a primary source, Graf is dismsissed as 'Boring'. Ugh. Somebody needs to completely rewrite this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.152.40.98 ( talk) 04:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
In regard to this edit, Iao (the more common English spelling) is probably going to be hard to disambiguate. We don't have an article on Iao. We have bits and pieces scattered here and there as if Wikipedia editors are able to sort into distinct categories the wildly overlapping and confusing use of this name in antiquity. What we need is a single article that collects and explains all the uses (in magic, especially inscriptions; in Gnosticism; Varro's identification of Iao as the god of the Jews) in ways helpful to the confused reader without of course implying that these figures are all the same Iao. Summary sections could direct to further discussions. This would be fiendishly difficult to accomplish. Cynwolfe ( talk) 20:31, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Magic in the Graeco-Roman world. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:07, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Magic in the Greco-Roman world article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
}}
It seems that this article is merely a dump of a research paper. Peter O. ( Talk) 15:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Even if this page is overflowing with seemingly useless hyperlinks, it nevertheless yields in some part accurate information. In addition, the Hellenistic period needs to make references to the origins of Hermeticism to at least some extent. The organization and contextualization, however, are my chief concerns.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.24.148 ( talk • contribs)
The article works well as a template, continuing modifications should bring the article up to a good standard. (84.9.143.173)
Lol, good one Smith Jones, the irony is appreciated.(84.9.143.173)
It's slightly irritating me how long the content is. Can someone condense it? They don't have to have to have extensive knowledge on the topic, it's just summarising each topic, yes? I'm afraid I don't have the literary skill to do it myself. 90.202.14.46 ( talk) 20:41, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't say that the information is entirely accurate. I think that saying that the practice of magic was a part of everyday life is an overstatement. It was only practiced(if at all practiced) by marginal members of society. People went to sorcerers if they felt that their child had been bewitched. Magic was practiced by people who believed there were ways to control nature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicoya730 ( talk • contribs) 06:12, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I would have to track down references, but to my knowledge the employment of magic was fairly widespread. To give you some idea, one of the most common applications for magic charms was not healing severe illness or any such extreme situation, but rather ensuring the success of the chariot team one supported in the regular chariot races. I believe the intro to the Greek Magical Papyri in Translation gives a bit more detail about this. Also, I don't think that the normal ritual procedures of the state religions are intended to be included under the definition of magic here, and in fact the article's lead section makes that explicit. If there's anything in the article that's actually referring to rituals of the state religion, then please point them out. Cheers, Fuzzypeg ★ 02:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
“ | It takes a lot of gall to insist I provide "something concrete to work with" when I have been the one providing references to works about the actual history of ancient Greece, Greek religion, and philosophy | ” |
If anything, the sources you quote support the opposite point (except generic ones like the Adkins book, which no Classical scholar would be caught dead citing above a freshman-level class, and even then it'd be dubious): That magical practices existed under most all eras of Greek and Roman civilization up through Christianity.
Also, you keep saying "what the Greeks saw as magic". What the Greeks saw is irrelevant here. Insisting on defining "magic" by what the Greeks themselves reckoned is by definition POV, so the one straying from NPOV tone here is you, not your detractors. Voudou practitioners might reject the idea that what they're doing is magic. It doesn't matter. Anthropologists will note but generally ignore a subject's opinion of themselves. I mean, it can be mentioned that XXXX is something the Greeks did not consider to be magic, but hey, if you are trying to effect change in the world (whether or not it is "guaranteed"), then what you are doing is magic, just the same as when priests claim that wine is turned into literal blood, that is magic. Ford MF ( talk) 14:21, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I started to examine the reference for this article, and I do not believe many of the sources were ever used in the creation of the article. This is not the first time I have noticed a large list of references created to bolster an article in hopes they will not be verified. I will give an opportunity to add page reverences to the individual works to specify where they re related to an this article before I begin deleting. One of the first sources I questioned and pulled made no reference at all to magic, or the assertions made in the article. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 15:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Reference 1 - links to a BNET article that no longer exists. The book listed has 5 volumes, none are listed in the reference, neither are page numbers, ok to delete as is misleading at best? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightowl89j ( talk • contribs) 01:18, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Also, the reference I wanted more information about, the 3rd century magician's kit, leads to Perseus Lookup Tool. And when I use this tool, I find nothing. 69.253.158.202 ( talk)Chezzo Osman — Preceding undated comment added 13:39, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
Amazon says he's boring, but surely essential to the article? Which I agree, it's an essay. Stubify, start all over. You can't rewrite an essay to make it encyclopedia. Doug Weller ( talk) 14:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Since you both are obviously interested and invested in the article, would either of you mind perhaps weighing in on the debate above, as it just seems to be going in circles and is desperately in need of new blood. Ford MF ( talk) 18:31, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
If we remove every instance of personal interpretation, labeling divine intervention and other acts in primary source material as magic, it leaves a thin and incoherent section. I believe it should be deleted. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 19:39, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
The article does not support its own claims. It identifies both Orpheus and Pythagoras as theois aner, which he reports to translate to "divine man", but can be more correctly translated to "man of God." This is in the same light as other miracle workers. The main source labeling Empedocles as a magus does not make such a statement. There is nothing there to salvage. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 20:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous editor has been deleting substantial sections of text. I'm not convinced that these deletions are all warranted. There are indeed problems with some of the text, but and in light of our discussions above I'm worried that these deletions may be overzealous, POV-pushing, or disruption to prove a WP:POINT. The removed sections are:
The last sentence is uncited and vaguely refers to the "central tenets" of a magician, which does indeed sound dodgy, but the rest of the text is still usable, since Thorndike mentions the History of Animals as evidence "that Greek science at its best was not untainted by magic." (Lynn Thorndike, Place of Magic in the Intellectual History of Europe, p. 62.) For a more recent reference regarding this, see Luck's Arcana Mundi p. 43, where he states that this work shows an Aristotelian belief in astrology, a system of sympathies and antipathies, and (in principle at least) deamons.
I was going to try to copy a number of the deleted sections out here and comment on them, but several are quite difficult to extricate from the surrounding text, and quite clearly deleted unnecessarily, so I'll try to do some fix-ups in the article. I may deposit some more questionable sections here for comment. Fuzzypeg ★ 00:50, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
References
I need some other editors to help out here! User:151.201.149.209 has been making some fairly extensive deletions from the article and is pushing for even more sweeping alterations, which seem to be based entirely on WP:OR (see discussion above). I've been trying to hold things together, with a little help from a couple of other editors, but there's a limit to how much time I can spend on this. If you have any knowledge/expertise in this area, please jump in and help me out! Thanks, Fuzzypeg ★ 02:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Can everyone please remember that "there is no deadline"? This article has been sitting here for ages. Yes, it should be tagged as problematic, but once we've done that, the reader is warned to use it with extra caution, and we can take our good time to fix it. This isn't easy, since it will eat a lot of expert time. Random blankings aren't helpful if you don't know what you are doing. If you have the expertise, by all means start plodding away. If you don't, you'll need to acquaint yourself with the relevant literature before being able to make judicious estimates. This isn't a topic you can learn about in college or on popular websites: you really need to go to the academic literature directly. -- dab (𒁳) 09:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
note the main sub-articles at Greek magical papyri, Curse tablet and Ephesia Grammata, which seem less prone to uninformed additions. The literature section at present is cluttered with too much tangential material. Luck (1985) sounds like a good starting point. Searching for "Hellenistic magic" on amazon, I find the following promising titles:
these less-than-a-decade old titles should be useful for coming to terms with the general outline of the topic as it presents itself in current academia. -- dab (𒁳) 09:56, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I think 151.201.149.209 is a bit too eager to delete things. The article needs a lot of work, yes, but the IP seems to be operating with an unduly restricted definition of magic. The Oxford Classical Dictionary article on magic (signed by Hank Versnel) gives Circe as an example of a witch (not really surprising to anyone who's read the Odyssey) and names other classical sources.
Hm. I see that people have already mentioned the books Magika Hiera and Arcana Mundi as good secondary sources, and our IP says that "This article, like the books Magika Hiera and Arcana Mundi, spends a good bit of time validating calling practices magic that are not seen as magic." Never mind that those books were written by experts in the topic of ancient Greek magical practices...I think, perhaps, the IP has an axe to grind. --Akhilleus ( talk) 13:59, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I had deleted the Wisdom of Solomon because the sources noted did not validate. Fuzzypeg restored it adding citations to Arcana Mundi. The fact that Fuzzypeg was able to "validate" the information with Arcana Mundi is because the information comes directly from Arcana Mundi pages 57-59. The original contributor had even plagiarized that same butchered quote of D. Winston, trans. of The Wisdom of Solomon, which Fuzzypeg has only added a citation pointing to Luck's butchered quote of the text. This provides additional proof this essay nothing but a synopsis of the chapter called Magic from Arcana Mundi. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 15:41, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
The citation of Dodds' work does not validate the statement, "According to the Greek philosopher Plotinus (205-270 CE) theurgy aims at establishing sympathy in the universe and uses the forces that flow through all things in order to be in touch with them." I deleted it once, but it was restored without validation. In fact, the only quote on that page is from Proclus' Theology of Plato, which was in the article already, with no mention of Plotinus at all. Also, on pages 286 & 287, Dodds seems is stating Plotinus is not a theurgist by arguing against points others have made he was. There are also many other works that indicate Plotinus saw theurgy as lesser to contemplation, and a form of spirituality for the masses who were not capable of independently initiating a divine experience. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 17:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
This was found with a line-by-line analysis of the "Further defining types of magic" section. One plagiarized line was already mentioned talking about Plotinus. Starting on page page 51 of Arcana Mundi.
Arcana Mundi: Our material permits a division of magical operations into two man kinds, theurgical and goetic.
Article: In some texts that discuss magical practices, there are some interesting differentiations made between theurgical and goetic uses of power.
Arcana Mundi: The word theurgia calls for a brief explanation. In some contexts it appears to be simply a glorified kind of magic practiced by a highly respected priestlike figure, not an obscure magician.
Article: The word theurgia in some contexts appears simply to try and glorify the kind of magic that is being practiced – usually a respectable priest-like figure is associated with the ritual.
Arcana Mundi: In a typical theurgical rite the divinity appears in one of two ways: (1) it is seen in a trance, in which case the soul of the theurgist or medium leaves the body, ascends to heaven, sees the divinity there, and then returns to describe the experience; (2) it descends to earth and is seen by the theurgist either in a dream or when he is fully awake.
Article: Further, in a typical theurgical rite the divinity appears in one of two ways: 1. The spirit is seen in a trance, and the soul of the theurgist leaves the body, ascends to heaven, sees the divinity, and then returns to recount the experience and the knowledge learned from it. 2. The spirit descends to earth and is seen by the theurgist either in a dream or when he is fully awake.
Arcana Mundi: The philosophers interested in magic describe themselves as theurgists, and the lower-class practitioners as magoi or goetes.
Article: Thus it is not surprising to see philosophers interested in magic describe themselves as theurgists, to try and distinguish themselves from the lower-class practitioners - the magoi or goetes.
Arcana Mundi: Hence, it could be argued that the term theuria of late antiquity, who would have been horrified to be called Magoi or goetes, especially the latter, since that term could also designate a juggler or chrlatan..."
Article: The term goetia by contrast is derogative, indicating low, specious or fraudulent mageia in Greek, just as theurgia is a more exalted form of magic.
I think this seals the deal on this article. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 17:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
It's great that you've found these uncited statements. Very sloppy work from the original editor. The correct way ahead is to cite them to Luck, and either ensure that they're sufficiently paraphrased or else slap quotation marks around them and ensure that they're identical wording. I'll have a look-see and fix what I can. Fuzzypeg ★ 20:56, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I originally suggested this section "Homeric magic," be deleted because it represented original research, but it in fact is another example of the plagiarizing of Luck's book, mostly from pages 39-40. From page 41 to 44 is the section "Magic in Classical Greece", and "Magic in the Hellenistic period" is taken primarily from pages 44 to 51. Even Luck's quotes of other works, and citations. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 19:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
There was this line in the introduction:
It was a small edit, but the as today was removed because in the editor's opinion it was "obviously wrong." Did this statement fail verification, or is this just a person's opinion? While a 2001 Gallop Poll showed that 73% of Americans believed in some form of paranormal (clairvoyance, telepathy, ESP), only 21% believe that witches are really real. Additionally, it does not take much effort to find news articles regarding dissemination against Wiccans and other Neopagans. One prominent concept about discrimination is that it can only be perpetuated by the majority against the minority. Are we making judgments of what is "obviously wrong" based on our own inner-circle? Should we not try to verify cited statements before editing them? -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 16:18, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm willing to give Luck his just due credit. He is a professor at Harvard University, holds the chairmanship of the Classics Department at Boston College, and held the editor position of the American Journal of Philology for a year. He has had a decent career in the academic world, but nothing one could point to as so outstanding as to define his as THE definitive authority on Greco-Roman history and religion. The fact is, I would have never found the plagiarism, in this article, if the sections I initially deleted for failing source verification were not restored by someone citing Luck's Arcana Mundi, and then I tried to verify the "new" citations. The original contributor used Luck's quotes and citations of other sources as his own, and they were failing verification. This article is already basically nothing but a {{ onesource}} essay. Regarding the newest edits to the intro, that cite Luck, I have several sources in front of me that make quite the opposite conclusion to the statement "magic seems to have borrowed from religion." I know there are people working on this article who don't want it reduced to "magic in the Greco-Roman world was practiced by the fringe and disenfranchised of ancient society," or "magic in the Greco-Roman world was defined as superstitious or unscrupulous irreligious ritual practices," and I am sensitive to that, but even the article as-is suggests that the ancient holy-men and philosophers (that this article wants identify as magicians) would have seriously rejected the ideas being promoted here, and that suggestion comes straight from Luck's book itself. If this article is to move way from being "a personal reflection or essay" to being a balanced and correctly weighted encyclopedic article, it will need serious editing, not just the addition of citations in an attempt to keep the article as-is, keeping the occultist worldview dominate. As is, this article " departs significantly from mainstream or orthodox theories" on Greek history, religion, and philosophy, despite what some may want to think. From Wikipedia's content guidelines: "Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikimedia principle and a cornerstone of Wikipedia; all significant views are represented fairly and without bias, with representation in proportion to their prominence." Note, with representation in proportion to their prominence. It is glaring obvious with some of the editing, such as the former the "Further defining types of magic" title being changed to "High and low magic", that undue weight is given both to the occultist worldview on this subject and (with other editing) to Luck's writing. -- 151.201.149.209 ( talk) 13:38, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I have given the article a more adequate lead section, and restructured the early sections (before the main historical material). I have cut nothing out. Charles Matthews ( talk) 11:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Plotinus is a theurgist, people on the talk page think the first edition of Arcana Mundi is a primary source, Graf is dismsissed as 'Boring'. Ugh. Somebody needs to completely rewrite this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.152.40.98 ( talk) 04:00, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
In regard to this edit, Iao (the more common English spelling) is probably going to be hard to disambiguate. We don't have an article on Iao. We have bits and pieces scattered here and there as if Wikipedia editors are able to sort into distinct categories the wildly overlapping and confusing use of this name in antiquity. What we need is a single article that collects and explains all the uses (in magic, especially inscriptions; in Gnosticism; Varro's identification of Iao as the god of the Jews) in ways helpful to the confused reader without of course implying that these figures are all the same Iao. Summary sections could direct to further discussions. This would be fiendishly difficult to accomplish. Cynwolfe ( talk) 20:31, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Magic in the Graeco-Roman world. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:07, 2 July 2016 (UTC)