I think that Macedonians (ethnic group) are not necessary, since they are included in Macedonian dab page. For the same reason, we excluded them from the respective slavic article. If you really have to include them, though, then they must be mentioned as their wiki article name (and not without the "ethnic group" dab parentheses) and they clearly are not ...majority (wow! 2.5 million Greek Macedonians vs 1.6 million Slavomacedonians). NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 10:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
In Greek related articles there will be no mentioning of Republic of Macedonia, as it is insulting since it tries to acquire and monopolise the Greek self-identifying term. We will follow the Gdansk/ Danzig precedent (see Talk:Gdansk/Vote) where users voted with a smashing majority that the name would be identical to each side's views in each side's articles. If you need to specify RoM, then it must follow fYRoM and it must be unlinked and in parentheses. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 10:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Whether or not the Ancient Macedonians were Greek or not is unknown and a matter of dispute among historians today, so I don't see how wikipedia can pick sides and have an unneutral comment made unnoticed. Therefore I am adding a tag to let the reader know that there are unreliable POVs in the article. Macedonia 02:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The Argead dynasty in which Alexander III and Philip II belonged, officially recognised itself and was recognised by others as Greek (and participated in the Olympics). Period. Miskin 17:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The List of ancient Macedonians is already problematic, the Kings of Hellenistic Kingdoms were not recognised by anybody as "Macedonians", that's just a clear POV. See the citation in Koine Greek as an example of ancient account. Miskin 17:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Were they, in the modern sense of nationality, Greek? They were born in Thessalonica; they spoke Greek. They also spoke Slavonic. Methodius may well have learnt this as a job requirement, but it is difficult to make the same argument for Cyril.
This raises much deeper questions:
I would evade these questions by reducing this page to its proper purpose: listing the numerous Greeks of Macedonia in modern times, when the Greek national movement had come into existence, and Macedonia means, as it now means, the Ottoman administrative district.
No; I am not pro-FYROM. The Greek frontier is justified, and fully justified, by the ethnographic and military balance as of 1912. Ptolemy and the Byzantine Emperors have nothing to do with it, either way. Septentrionalis 00:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Greek = native Greek-speaker and Macedonian Greek = Greek born in Macedonia, it's as simple as that. If Pmanderson thinks that Greek = Greek national or holder of Greek passport, then that's just his POV. Hectorian made a point, Pmanderson's only issue is with Greek continuity and history in general. His views are not applied in wikipedia nor in any academic circle. The examples of Dante, Newton and Descartes being described as Italian, English and French respectively, sufficiently proves this. According to pmanderson's logic we have to change literally all pre-19th ethnic descriptions. Miskin 14:51, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Artistole was born in the Ionian city of Stageira, which was at the time part of Chalcidice, an independent political and geographical entity. Miskin 14:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Why did you remove the Macedonian monarchs Pmanderson? Do you deny that the Argead dynasty claimed royal Greek descend? Miskin 02:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not only Herodotus who says it, it's also Thucydides, Phillip II, Alexander III etc, basically it was common knowledge in antiquity. I'm going to add them back and remove Aristotle. Miskin 02:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Pmanderson I'm having difficulties to believe that you were being serious about those last edits of yours. Miskin 11:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
"This story was occasionally repeated in antiquity, although it was the practice of most sources to distinguish between Greeks and Macedonians; as Arrian does, in writing out the history of
Ptolemy I Soter. Modern Greek nationalists also consider this significant; although it is as irrelevant to the northern frontier of Greece, as the undoubtedly Greek foundation of
Syracuse,
Naples, and
Marseilles is to the western frontier."
If that edit was done by an anon I'd categorise it as sneaky vandalism. But the guy was serious about it.
Miskin
15:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Telex's revision consists of the note that the following people self-identified as Greek, and are from Macedonia.
This would be improved by sources that
I propose merging this page into Macedonia (Greece).
Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I have no ojection to move this information within Macedonia (Greece)#Demographics and to redirect this page there. The redirect will suffice for the evil propagandistic aims outlined above, and the section there will be expanded by the present information. :-) Niko Silver 12:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Another idea would be to merge the List of Macedonians (Greek) here. Niko Silver 15:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I think this article serves a useful purpose in the context of understanding the naming dispute. Like it or not, the Macedonians' regional identity is more distinctive and vigorously expressed because of it. Besides, it is not the only such article; Maniots is in a similar vein, contradicting FP's thesis that we don't do regional non-ethnic demographic articles. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 06:19, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
If we read the article, the content doesn't give reasons for a separate article about Greek Macedonians. It should include more details about the culture of these people, in order to exist as a distinct article from the Greek Macedonia. But I am, for one more time, suspicious about the motives of them who called for the merger. - Sthenel 16:45, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that Macedonians (ethnic group) are not necessary, since they are included in Macedonian dab page. For the same reason, we excluded them from the respective slavic article. If you really have to include them, though, then they must be mentioned as their wiki article name (and not without the "ethnic group" dab parentheses) and they clearly are not ...majority (wow! 2.5 million Greek Macedonians vs 1.6 million Slavomacedonians). NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 10:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
In Greek related articles there will be no mentioning of Republic of Macedonia, as it is insulting since it tries to acquire and monopolise the Greek self-identifying term. We will follow the Gdansk/ Danzig precedent (see Talk:Gdansk/Vote) where users voted with a smashing majority that the name would be identical to each side's views in each side's articles. If you need to specify RoM, then it must follow fYRoM and it must be unlinked and in parentheses. NikoSilver (T) @ (C) 10:40, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Whether or not the Ancient Macedonians were Greek or not is unknown and a matter of dispute among historians today, so I don't see how wikipedia can pick sides and have an unneutral comment made unnoticed. Therefore I am adding a tag to let the reader know that there are unreliable POVs in the article. Macedonia 02:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The Argead dynasty in which Alexander III and Philip II belonged, officially recognised itself and was recognised by others as Greek (and participated in the Olympics). Period. Miskin 17:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The List of ancient Macedonians is already problematic, the Kings of Hellenistic Kingdoms were not recognised by anybody as "Macedonians", that's just a clear POV. See the citation in Koine Greek as an example of ancient account. Miskin 17:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Were they, in the modern sense of nationality, Greek? They were born in Thessalonica; they spoke Greek. They also spoke Slavonic. Methodius may well have learnt this as a job requirement, but it is difficult to make the same argument for Cyril.
This raises much deeper questions:
I would evade these questions by reducing this page to its proper purpose: listing the numerous Greeks of Macedonia in modern times, when the Greek national movement had come into existence, and Macedonia means, as it now means, the Ottoman administrative district.
No; I am not pro-FYROM. The Greek frontier is justified, and fully justified, by the ethnographic and military balance as of 1912. Ptolemy and the Byzantine Emperors have nothing to do with it, either way. Septentrionalis 00:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Greek = native Greek-speaker and Macedonian Greek = Greek born in Macedonia, it's as simple as that. If Pmanderson thinks that Greek = Greek national or holder of Greek passport, then that's just his POV. Hectorian made a point, Pmanderson's only issue is with Greek continuity and history in general. His views are not applied in wikipedia nor in any academic circle. The examples of Dante, Newton and Descartes being described as Italian, English and French respectively, sufficiently proves this. According to pmanderson's logic we have to change literally all pre-19th ethnic descriptions. Miskin 14:51, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
By the way, Artistole was born in the Ionian city of Stageira, which was at the time part of Chalcidice, an independent political and geographical entity. Miskin 14:56, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Why did you remove the Macedonian monarchs Pmanderson? Do you deny that the Argead dynasty claimed royal Greek descend? Miskin 02:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not only Herodotus who says it, it's also Thucydides, Phillip II, Alexander III etc, basically it was common knowledge in antiquity. I'm going to add them back and remove Aristotle. Miskin 02:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Pmanderson I'm having difficulties to believe that you were being serious about those last edits of yours. Miskin 11:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
"This story was occasionally repeated in antiquity, although it was the practice of most sources to distinguish between Greeks and Macedonians; as Arrian does, in writing out the history of
Ptolemy I Soter. Modern Greek nationalists also consider this significant; although it is as irrelevant to the northern frontier of Greece, as the undoubtedly Greek foundation of
Syracuse,
Naples, and
Marseilles is to the western frontier."
If that edit was done by an anon I'd categorise it as sneaky vandalism. But the guy was serious about it.
Miskin
15:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Telex's revision consists of the note that the following people self-identified as Greek, and are from Macedonia.
This would be improved by sources that
I propose merging this page into Macedonia (Greece).
Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I have no ojection to move this information within Macedonia (Greece)#Demographics and to redirect this page there. The redirect will suffice for the evil propagandistic aims outlined above, and the section there will be expanded by the present information. :-) Niko Silver 12:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Another idea would be to merge the List of Macedonians (Greek) here. Niko Silver 15:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I think this article serves a useful purpose in the context of understanding the naming dispute. Like it or not, the Macedonians' regional identity is more distinctive and vigorously expressed because of it. Besides, it is not the only such article; Maniots is in a similar vein, contradicting FP's thesis that we don't do regional non-ethnic demographic articles. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 06:19, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
If we read the article, the content doesn't give reasons for a separate article about Greek Macedonians. It should include more details about the culture of these people, in order to exist as a distinct article from the Greek Macedonia. But I am, for one more time, suspicious about the motives of them who called for the merger. - Sthenel 16:45, 27 October 2007 (UTC)