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Why did Greece wait until 1988 to rename its northern province as Macedonia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.116.73 ( talk) 23:01, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Its a strategy that is used to confuse the world about the identity of the ethnic macedonians who are living in the macedonian province in greece. The ethnic macedonians are macedonians who are currently associated with the macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia. Greece is using the word macedonia for themselves to monopolize it when refering to their own greeks who live in the macedonian province. Thats why they took over 70 years to rename northern greece as macedonia. If Macedonian was a greek name they would of used it right away in 1913 as their own. There is a whole documentary about the issue which is going to be released soon about all of this. The documentary is called "A Name is a Name". Its directed by Sigurjon Einarsson, produced by Jason Miko and narration by Sir Andrew Motion. http://www.anameisaname.net/EN/index.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.34.6.245 ( talk) 18:50, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
if it was banned what is this?? http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2008/01/24/greek-encyclopaedia-helios-of-19th-dec-1947/
This is not an issue to be presented here. There are fora for such kinds of discussions. GK1973 ( talk) 13:58, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
It is obvious that F.Y.R.O.M's name cannot be changed to Macedonia...Whether its right or not it will cause many economical,ethnical,political issues.Can't both countries have this name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xleburas ( talk • contribs) 09:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
The Problem is that the former Slav and Ottoman region of Macedonia doesn't have any refference to the name. Greece has a continued use of the name since the 19th century war of independence as well as useage of the name Macedonia Bulgar, Serb, Avar, etc but not Macedonian. While the geographical region is correct the people who live there today are not -- Orestes1984 ( talk) 12:53, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
This is not an issue we are concerned with in Wikipedia. Leave politics to the politicians. GK1973 ( talk) 13:56, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
I erased the part about Macedon having been a local phylarch not because it is incorrect, but because it has to be sourced first to be sure that no mistake is made (for example, I think that the text where the phylarch Macedon was mentioned was not ancient, unless it was Strabo.... I am really not sure right now, but I am pretty sure that he was not described as a phylarch of the Makednoi, anyways, I just want to find the exact extract first and then we can add it back)
Nevertheless, I do not think that this "etymology" is appropriate as given. "Macedonia" means "land of the Macedonians". What we are giving here is the etymology of the word "Macedonian" and not "Macedonia". We could just redirect to the appropriate article to give a deeper etymology, but I think it does not belong here. GK1973 ( talk) 15:48, 12 February 2010 (UTC) MACEDONIA IS NOT PART OF GREECE, BUT GREECE IS PART OF BIG MACEDONIA. MACEDONIA IS NOT FYROM !!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.14.133 ( talk) 12:14, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
There is a misconception that "the name 'Macedonia' was forbidden in Greece prior to 1988" that is propagated over the internet. However, it is easy to disprove this by looking at any Greek map or encyclopedia of school book of this time. The Greeks did suppress the use of the word "μακεδονικός/ή" for the language or the ethnic group, but not the word "Μακεδονία" for the territory.
"Macedonia" (Μακεδονία) was a legitimate administrative region of Greece until the 1987 administrative reform. The Greek region (διαμέρισμα) in question was called officially "Μακεδονία", and was not known under any other name, until the administrative reform of 1987, when three new administrative divisions were formed, all three having the word Μακεδονία as part of thier name. The previous "Minister for Northern Greece" (until 2009 called " Minister for Macdenonia-Thrace" [7]) was responsible for two regions, Macedonia and Τhrace.
Here is a Greek map from 1919:
Here is a coin from 1963 [10] [11].
Map on a Greek school book of 1977 [12] (see legend at lower right corner).
Notice also that the popular Thessaloniki dayly Makedonia has been published under this name since 1911. Andreas (T) 01:46, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
We have an agreed and well-established formula for the names. We all respect it and we all revert people like user 79.125.225.52. Politis ( talk) 22:50, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Here is a school book on Greek geography [15], published in 1967 by the state-affiliated Organisation for the Publication of School Books. The chapter on Makedonia starts at page 102 with a map on page 103.
On page 103 you can read : "Ἀλλ’ ὅλην τὴν Μακεδονίαν δὲν τὴν κατέχει σήμερον ἡ ῾Ελλάς. Τὸ βόρειον μέρος της τὸ κατέχουν δύο ἄλλα κράτη, ἡ Νοτιοσλαβία καὶ ἡ Βουλγαρία." (My tranlsation: But Greece today does not containe the whole of Macedonia. Its northern Part is contained by two other states, Yugoslavia and Bulgaria).
Read also on page 122 that "Greek Macedonia has about 1,890,00 inhabitants. It is an Administrative Region and is divided into nine prefectures" (my translation). On page 214, you will find a map of the areas that were incorporated into the Greek state at various times. The 1939 edition [16] contains basically the same information. Andreas (T) 03:34, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
can you find a schoolbook of ethnic Macedonians from Greece on Greek Slavic from 1946 till present where it is written Macedonia for that specific region? tnx 89.205.7.164 ( talk) 13:28, 22 January 2011 (UTC) user:mak
The anonymous editors are just playing. I think that soon they will ask Andreas to send them copies of the book and a few of those silver 30 drachma coins :-) And they will still pretend that they want more proof. The fact is that the Greek state has, since 1913, called one of its northern provinces Macedonia. Politis ( talk) 23:32, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Phil, good idea to lock page for unregistered user and, I hope, for registered users of recent arrival. By the way, I think that quite a few editor who would identify as ethnic Macedonians must be against the vandalism of the anonymous editors. Politis ( talk) 17:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
To anyone interested in boosting the chronology of references here is a reference from a 1943 book by Athenian (Stephen Lavra), The Greek Miracle, published 1943, page 105, "Even in those provinces most exposed to attack [by Hitler's army], Thrace and Macedonia, the same enthusiasm and the same loyalty dominated the population" [17] Politis ( talk) 11:41, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
I think it is right to use only the term "Prefecture" instead of Province for the Greek Macedonia, because first of all it is the direct and more accurate translation of Νομός/Nomos, and secondly because "Pronince" implies a type of autonomy for a region in our times, i.e. like the Canadian "Provinces" vs Canadian "Territories", and compared to American "States". --Ἑλλαιβάριος/Ellaivarios 15:42, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
"Prefecture" is the conventional translation of "nomos", but Macedonia isn't a nomos; the nomos units are/were much smaller, and Macedonia consists of many of them. The relevant administrative division is at the "decentralized administrations" level (since 2010), or the "periphery" level (before 2010), or the " "diamerisma" level (prior to the 1980s). The trouble here is that Greek Macedonia isn't in fact any single administrative unit today at all – it is made up of two and a half "peripheries", and parts of three different "administrations". As for the old diamerisma of Macedonia, you could translate it as "department", or "province", or "region" (as our Regions of Greece article does). Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
I updated this section with the content from the press release of the UN's International Court of Justice. [18] I moved the political statements, some of which are not sourced, some of which are irrelevant (such as: "The EU has so far not commented" -what kind of information is that?!) to a sub-section. I took the content of the positions of the parties in front of the Court in full, as it is written in the press release, in order to maintain the correctness and impartiality (if any of the authors of this article is interested in such categories). Please do not delete this part, because it gives accurate information about the court proceeding, as it is viewed by the Court itself. Please discuss here prior to making any alterations. Crnorizec ( talk) 22:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
According to article: The ongoing dispute has not prevented the two countries from enjoying close trade links and investment levels (especially from Greece), but it has generated a great deal of political and academic debate on both sides.
According to BBC: Soon after Yugoslavia's southernmost republic declared itself independent under the name Republic of Macedonia in 1991, Greece imposed a trade embargo. The embargo was lifted when Macedonia agreed in 1995 to change its flag and constitution and apply to join international institutions under the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, while negotiations continued over the name.
So there was a trade embargo, so what the article says is not true.-- Bizso ( talk) 01:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I put in a tiny properly sourced price of the statue of Alexander the Great in the Macedonian capital Skopje with the sentence itself also mentioning it was Italian made. The price was $13 million or €9 million. I thought it was relevant to show how much this "Antiquisation" policy is costing the Macedonian people as even many Macedonians are unhappy with how much is being spent on this remodeling. Also the Philip II Statue opposite will be around the same price. The price edit was immediately removed by Taivo who said it was irrelevant (?) Does everyone else think the price of the statues is irrelevant to the "Antiquisation" policy section? What are your opinions? Reaper7 ( talk) 04:10, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
--- The price is not floated with no apparent tie to anything that preceded it. The statue is mentioned and I simply added the referenced price to give the reader an idea of howmuch this policy is costing the Macedonian public, which you deemed irrelevant and immediately removed. You could be right on this - that no one cares how much the statue/s is costing Macedonia or indeed the "Antiquisation" policy itself. I am just curious if others think it is relevant. Reaper7 ( talk) 13:47, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Original sentence: In 2011, a massive, 22m tall statue of Alexander the Great was inaugurated in Macedonia Square in Skopje, as part of of the Skopje 2014 remodeling of the city. [1]
My edit: In 2011, a massive, 22m tall statue of Alexander the Great costing Macedonia nine million euros ($13 million), was inaugurated in Macedonia Square in Skopje, as part of of the Skopje 2014 remodeling of the city. [2] [1]
The "newspaper" tag that was recently inserted by a POV pushing anonymous editor is simply another attempt in a long line of WP:POINTy editing attempts to push an anti-Macedonian point-of-view. -- Taivo ( talk) 22:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Since there aren't any official data available and many people are wondering, I've asked for information. I've just sent this to FM Poposki's office.
I believe that two weeks are enough for an answer (that's until the end of January). After all, they should readily know which countries recognise them using their name. If a) they don't respond, and b) nobody else has reliable, verifiable information, I will follow the appropriate editing procedures in February. Eldar73 ( talk) 21:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
RoM's MFA didn't respond. We have a single source, involved in the dispute, unable to verify the claim. What are your thoughts? Eldar73 ( talk) 14:34, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I haven't looked at the edits disputed above, but I have a remark about the issue at hand. Of course MFA claims like "133 countries do that" will look much better if the list is appended. Unfortunately they haven't provided such yet. And I doubt they will reply to an email asking for such list. If you really want to get this you should contact a journalist, who can semi-officially request the information - or simply confront the minister the next time he says "133 countries" with "which ones exactly?". Japinderum ( talk) 15:12, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Panama, Mexico, DR Congo - do we have sources do we have about these using FYROM? From the glimpse I made it seems that there is only a debunked Greek statement about that.
Vatican City - sources in the article (and [20]) point at FYROM. There is only one where RoM is utilized, but it seems of secondary passer-by nature.
Albania - sources in the article point at RoM. But there is one odd FYROM reference.
I don't say that we should move any of those, but only raise the point for others to look into. Japinderum ( talk) 14:29, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
We have conflicting Macedonian and Greek statements. We have Mexico MFA statement about using FYROM both in international and bilateral context. So, clearly - FYROM. Japinderum ( talk) 07:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
We have conflicting Macedonian and Greek statements. Macedonian refutal of Greek statement involves also Mexico (proven wrong) - is this sufficient to move conclude that Greek statement is correct also for Panama and DRCongo (e.g. move these from inconclusive to FYROM)? Japinderum ( talk) 07:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Almost all sources point to FYROM [21], [22], [23] (these include statements, lists of diplomatic relations, etc.) One single source [24] omits "former Yugoslav", but this is a shorthand in spoken language (it's a citation of a speech) - not in official diplomatic document. So, should we move Vatican from inconclusive to FYROM? Japinderum ( talk) 07:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Dead link sources unknown whether FYROM or RoM:
Irrelevant sources - such that are showing usage in international context (where it's FYROM even for states using RoM bilaterally)
Sources with FYROM:
Sources with RoM:
The only FYROM source is a web page (albeit on the Albanian MFA). The RoM sources are official international treaty and official document of Albania state protocol. So, should we move Albania from inconclusive to RoM? Japinderum ( talk) 07:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
There is a massive new/ancient style arch22 meter tall and an epic statue of Alexander the Great also 22 meters tall/. The project has cost so far half a billion Euros and it is an important state project to project the state's beliefs that it is indeed an ancient state associated with Ancient Macedonia. Why would it be inappropriate to mention it? Who would it offend? Greeks? I say we add it. Zeno77 ( talk) 20:24, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
I would like to point to the fact that the article lacks the very important role played on this issue by the other three countries occupying territory of the geographic region of Macedonia, namely by Bulgaria, Albania and Serbia. The article seems to have been reduced to a mere Greek-Fyrom dispute, although it certainly involves (I mean the pure naming diplomatic question) the above countries too.
What are their position and reaction with regard to the matter? For certainly there is one, at least in the case of Bulgaria, as far as I know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.65.45.85 ( talk) 23:14, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Check also this new source about the naming dispute. It is a Phd thesis (2011) from Umeå University / Sweden:
Erik Sjöberg (2011). Battlefields of Memory The Macedonian Conflict and Greek Historical Culture (PDF). Sweden: Umeå University - Phd Thesis. ISBN 978-91-7459-329-7.
Ggia ( talk) 13:20, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
In the section of the article Background: Controversy the Roman name for a part of the province is given as "Macedonia Salutaris" ("coinciding with most of the modern Greek region of Macedonia, and Macedonia Salutaris ("second Macedonia") in the north").
"Salutaris" is then translated as "second", which meaning for salutaris is not in A Latin Dictionary (Lewis & Short). The Wiki article Macedonia (Roman province) translates salutaris as "advantageous", which is a possible translation of salutaris according to A Latin Dictionary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.18.110.176 ( talk) 17:06, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
At least on my browser the section "Naming policies of foreign countries and organisations" renders badly since the image is pushing the list of countries off to the side. I don't know enough about MediaWiki to fix it, but I thought I'd bring it to someone's attention to see if someone more capable could fix it.
superman ( talk) 09:31, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
The admission of Macedonia to membership in the United Nations in April 1993 required the new member to be “provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as ‘the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’ pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State.” The term “difference” here refers to the dispute between Greece and Macedonia over the use of the applicant state’s name. In its Resolution 817 of April 7, 1993 (by which the applicant state was recommended for admission to the United Nations), the Security Council “urge[d] the parties to continue to cooperate with the Co-Chairmen of the Steering Committee of the International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia in order to arrive at a speedy settlement of their difference.” Thus, the admission of Macedonia to the United Nations was subject to its acceptance of being provisionally referred to as the “Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” (FYROM) and of negotiating with Greece over its name. The conditions for the admission of states were the subject of exhaustive political and legal deliberations at the United Nations during the 1940s when many states were applying for membership. During the first several years of the Organizations’ existence, admission to, and even representation in, the United Nations were subject to various conditions (outside the scope of those contained in Article 4 of the Charter), which in some cases required recognition of the applicant (as an international subject) prior to its admission to membership. In an effort to resolve the dilemmas regarding the legal aspects of the conditions required for admission to membership and to eliminate the various stalemates that were occurring in the admission process, the UN General Assembly, by Resolution 113 (II) of November 17, 1947, requested that the International Court of Justice give an advisory opinion on the following question: Is a Member of the United Nations which is called upon, in virtue of Article 4 of the Charter, to pronounce itself by its vote, either in the Security Council or in the General Assembly, on the admission of a State to membership in the United Nations, juridically entitled to make its consent to the admission dependent on conditions not expressly provided by paragraph 1 of the said Article? The following conditions are expressly set forth in Article 4, paragraph 1 of the UN Charter, which provides: “Membership in the United Nations is open to all other [i.e., other than the original UN members] peaceloving states which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter and, in the judgment of Organization, are able and willing to carry out these obligations.” The next paragraph of the article states the procedural rule that “[t]he admission of any such state to membership in the United Nations will be effected by a decision of the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council.” In its Advisory Opinion, Admission of a State to the United Nations, the Court first concluded that the question put to it in an abstract form had a legal nature. Consequently, the Court was required to provide an interpretation of Article 4, paragraph 1 of the Charter and, by virtue of Article 96 of the Charter and Article 65 of its Statute and as “the principal judicial organ of the United Nations,” it had the competence to give such an interpretation. The Court then observed that paragraph 1 of Article 4 in effect contains five conditions; to be admitted to membership in the United Nations, an applicant must (1) be a state; (2) be peace-loving; (3) accept the obligations of the UN Charter; (4) be able to carry out these obligations; and (5) be willing to do so. Further, the Court found that the question put to it by the General Assembly could be reduced to the following: are the conditions stated in paragraph 1 of Article 4 exhaustive in character in the sense that an affirmative reply would lead to the conclusion that a Member is not legally entitled to make admission dependent on conditions not expressly provided for in that Article, while a negative reply would, on the contrary, authorize a Member to make admission dependent also on other conditions.
After thorough consideration, the International Court of Justice formulated its advisory opinion stating that a member of the United Nations that is called upon, by virtue of Article 4 of the Charter, to pronounce itself by its vote, either in the Security Council or in the General Assembly, on the admission of a state to membership in the Organization, is not juridically entitled to make its consent dependent on conditions not expressly provided in paragraph 1 of that article. Among the most important arguments used by the Court in arriving at the above opinion were that (1) the UN Charter is a multilateral treaty whose provisions impose obligations on its members; (2) the text of paragraph 1 of Article 4, “by the enumeration which it contains and the choice of its terms, clearly demonstrates the intention of its authors to establish a legal rule which, while it fixes the conditions of admission, determines also the reasons for which admission may be refused”; and (3) the enumeration of the conditions in paragraph 1 of Article 4 is exhaustive (and “not merely stated by way of guidance or example”), which follows from the fact that if the opposite were the case, “[i]t would lead to conferring upon Members an indefinite and practically unlimited power of discretion in the imposition of new conditions.” In its deliberations, the Court specifically analyzed whether the political character of the organs responsible for admission (the Security Council and the General Assembly, by virtue of paragraph 2 of Article 4), or for the maintenance of world peace (the Security Council, pursuant to Article 24 of the Charter), engendered arguments leading to the contrary conclusion regarding the exhaustive character of the conditions enumerated in paragraph 1 of Article 4. The Court rejected this interpretation and held that “[t]he political character of an organ cannot release it from the observance of the treaty provisions established by the Charter when they constitute limitations on its powers or criteria for its judgment.”11 Thus, the Charter limits the freedom of political organs and no “political considerations” can be superimposed on, or added to, the conditions set forth in Article 4 that could prevent admission to membership. (The advisory opinion of the Court makes it apparent that, besides their exhaustive and explicit character, the conditions laid down in Article 4 of the Charter have two additional characteristics: (1) they must be fulfilled before admission is effected; and (2) once they are recognized as having been fulfilled, the applicant state acquires an unconditional right to UN membership. This last feature also follows from the “openness” to membership enshrined in Article 4, which comports with the universal character of the Organization.) The advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice was presented to the General Assembly at its third session, in December 1948. At that session the General Assembly adopted Resolution 197 (III), by which it “[r]ecommend[ed] that each member of the Security Council and of the General Assembly, in exercising its vote on the admission of new Members, should act in accordance with the foregoing opinion of the International Court of Justice.”
(This resolution and the Court’s advisory opinion have direct legal relevance to the issue of the admission of Macedonia to membership in the United Nations, since these documents interpret the Charter in a manner that limits the power of the UN organs to impose conditions on admission. The preamble to Security Council Resolution 817, by which Macedonia was recommended for admission, recognized that “the applicant fulfils the criteria for membership laid down in Article 4 of the Charter of the United Nations.” According to Admission of a State to the United Nations and General Assembly Resolution 197, this statement means that the applicant has fulfilled all the required conditions for admission to membership in the United Nations and that no other conditions may be imposed. Contrary to the usual wording of Security Council resolutions recommending admission of a state, Resolution 817, after recognizing the fulfillment of the conditions in Article 4, contains an additional consideration, “that a difference has arisen over the name of the State, which needs to be resolved in the interest of the maintenance of peaceful and good-neighbourly relations in the region.” This condition, which is found in the introductory part of the resolution, is reflected in its paragraph 2, which recommends the admission of the applicant state to membership in the United Nations. It describes “this State” as “being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as ‘the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’ pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State.” The Macedonian Government strongly objected to the use of this provisional name, stating that “under no circumstances” was it prepared to accept that designation as the name for the country. Nevertheless, the text of the resolution remained unchanged. As a consequence, the imposed obligation to accept this provisional denomination and the closely related obligation to negotiate over the name of the country served as additional conditions that it was required to satisfy so as to gain admission to the United Nations. These unusual conditions in Resolution 817 are extraneous to the limited list laid down in Article 4. Furthermore, these conditions transcend the act of admission in time. Since the Charter makes no provision for other conditions for admission, it appears that the conditions imposed on Macedonia have no legal basis. Certainly, the ICJ’s advisory opinion makes clear that all the conditions for admission to membership must be fulfilled before admission is effected. Since the conditions that were imposed represent purely political considerations, they are incompatible with the letter and spirit of the UN Charter.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.92.187.253 ( talk) 16:38, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
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There are 2 problems here - firstly the word "ethnic". This does not belong here - as someone notes in parenthesis. Firstly, the Greek people that 'identify themselves' as Macedonian do so not because of ethnicity (a convoluted term) but because of origin. In other words, simply put, they live in or hail from the Greek state of Macedonia. Secondly, using this word is highly politically charged giving the impression that they are an ethnic group in a region which is not their own or where they are in a minority. See [31] or [32]. The term is simply not needed.
The second problem: "identify themselves as" - again is highly convoluted and not needed. Again it is politically charged by implying a weak connection to the area of origin. I am from the county of Oxfordshire in the UK as this is where I was born and have lived my entire adult life. I would never say, or never be described as, "identifying myself as being from Oxfordshire" or that I identify myself as English.
I could be wrong, but this terminology looks politically motivated. I would propose the following (probably can be improved but you get the point):
Actually, not even that. The text in brackets ("unclear in what sense if not ethnic") is blatantly untrue. It should simply be replaced with "clearly in a regional sense only". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.44.209 ( talk) 16:28, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
The map is entitled "Geographic and political division of Macedonia" and yet there is a big grey line that covers the Republic of Macedonia and the Greek state called Modern Geographical Macedonia. This is neither a political division or a geographic division. Should this be on this map in this section? I suggest this should be in only the article on this subject. GoldenClockCar ( talk) 12:38, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
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The last sentence "Economic relations and cooperation have resumed to such an extent that Greece is now considered one of the Republic's most important foreign economic partners and investors.[46]" under the subsection "Stalemate" should therefore be removed as the reference (46) has expired, no longer exists and/or is irretrievable. 120.148.93.147 ( talk) 07:48, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
{{
dead link}}
to the cite.
Sam Sailor
Sing
10:57, 10 April 2014 (UTC)http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1347 example source 179: THAT RUSSIA-PERMANENT SECURITY COUNCIL MEMBER RECOGNISES MACEDONIA IN OFICIAL TEXT DOCUMENTS...>Leads to a random link about gynecology. Severely inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zergbot123 ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
I am a total stranger to this controversial article. I just read it and I see necessary a change: Template `Politics of Macedonia" should come before the template "Politics of Greece" as certainly the issue is a much more vital one for Macedonia than for Greece. Therefore I am changing their places, after 5 minutes. Please don't shoot me for this, if you think I am wrong just revert me and I will not begin an edit war on something I never edited before. (Indeed I wouldn't begin an edit war on anything, I hope. :-) -- Why should I have a User Name? ( talk) 11:45, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
<long rant by sock IP snipped> – 212.83.144.225 ( talk) 00:11, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Another sock attempt by Operahome ( talk · contribs). Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:42, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Browsing through the talk history I have only found remarks on the very poor verifiability of the list in the article and hardly anyone talking in support of it. I dare say there was actually a consensus that was never realized to delete this content and place a concentrated summary in its place. After a glance at the sources provided, it is evident of use of non-reliable webpages (even those are misrepresented) and no official sources are given at most cases. The whole section oozes of WP:synthesis. The undertaking of the wiki in making this enumeration that no-one else has enumerated reliably (so as to cite to as a source), means this section is original research. There is no official document by either of the two countries involved that enumerates the countries said to be supporting their respective clauses. The only strongly sourced part is a dated claim of a number (137?) supporting the one side (but no list) and only a couple of official documents with explicit identification of some country's position (e.g. a NATO document explicitly referring to Turkey's stance).
With this state of things is it in accordance with the wiki policies to leave this list here as it stands? We could more reliably find sources on the big ones positions and give a more readable and informative summary.
Besides this article has been tagged as too long; if we must absolutely have to have an exhaustive list of the position of all the countries in the whole world (and I don't see the reason we ought to), why not move that to a separate (main) article List of sovereign entities' positions on the Macedonia naming dispute or something like that so that it can take its rightful place in the boring part of the wiki, together with List of diplomatic missions of Palestine or the article International recognition of Kosovo which comprises mostly of a list of countries.
Keep also in mind that the citations section has grown to stupendous size mostly because of the appearance of this list and adds even more to the size of the article. Shadowmorph ^"^ 14:40, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
Just for curiosity: Why does "Republika Makedonija" translate as "Republic of Macedonia" and not "Macedonian Republic"? Where is the "of"? (I know that "Republic of Macedonia" is the common name in English, I just wonder why.) -- Why should I have a User Name? ( talk) 11:52, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
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The non-working reference on the UN interim agreement [29 "Interim Accord" (PDF). United Nations. 1995. Retrieved 2008-11-07.[dead link]] can be accessed here: [3] Bargme ( talk) 10:47, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Georgievski
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia) shows that no usage of FYROM allowed, plus there are guidelines for usage of Republic of... Anyone? Kirev ( talk) 12:01, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Kirev ( talk) 22:13, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
I believe that the chapter has nothing to do with the "Name dispute". Most scholars accept that the "Ancient Macedonian language", was related with the Ancient Greek language, and this is not a Greek invention. ( The names of the kings etc, are Greek). There is a propaganda that it was not Greek, just to show that there is not any continuity between the Greek Macedonia and the Ancient Macedonia. During the Ottoman empire, many languages were spoken in the region. A lot of people with Albanian origin became citizents of the new Greek state. Both sides are responsible for the "Name dispute", but it has nothing to do with the languages. Jestmoon(talk) 11:34, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
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Please change 'former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' to 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' to ensure it is correctly written as a proper noun naming the nation as it was entered into the UN. 124.169.131.203 ( talk) 15:12, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
The description "bankrupt southern neighbour" shows a fanatic character, not suitable to a scholar. Greece lost too much from the Macedonian problem. The problem is not the name ,but the existence of maps (also in Wikipedia), with a region called "Macedonia". This region includes Greek Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, and parts of Bulgaria, Albania and Serbia. During the Greek civil war, there was a plan for the establishment of an independent state with the name "Macedonia". This was the main reason for the population movements which followed. The citizents of Greek Macedonia, are not afraid of their neigbours or their name, but they are afraid of the "Great Powers", which will probably in future decide the establishment of an independent state in the hypothetical region "Macedonia". Historically, this region never existed, and nobody knows its borders. When USA bombed Yugoslavia, they said that the reason was not to take Kosovo from Yugoslavia. Now Kosovo is independent. Jestmoon(talk) 21:36, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
Why did Greece wait until 1988 to rename its northern province as Macedonia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.116.73 ( talk) 23:01, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Its a strategy that is used to confuse the world about the identity of the ethnic macedonians who are living in the macedonian province in greece. The ethnic macedonians are macedonians who are currently associated with the macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia. Greece is using the word macedonia for themselves to monopolize it when refering to their own greeks who live in the macedonian province. Thats why they took over 70 years to rename northern greece as macedonia. If Macedonian was a greek name they would of used it right away in 1913 as their own. There is a whole documentary about the issue which is going to be released soon about all of this. The documentary is called "A Name is a Name". Its directed by Sigurjon Einarsson, produced by Jason Miko and narration by Sir Andrew Motion. http://www.anameisaname.net/EN/index.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.34.6.245 ( talk) 18:50, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
if it was banned what is this?? http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2008/01/24/greek-encyclopaedia-helios-of-19th-dec-1947/
This is not an issue to be presented here. There are fora for such kinds of discussions. GK1973 ( talk) 13:58, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
It is obvious that F.Y.R.O.M's name cannot be changed to Macedonia...Whether its right or not it will cause many economical,ethnical,political issues.Can't both countries have this name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xleburas ( talk • contribs) 09:22, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
The Problem is that the former Slav and Ottoman region of Macedonia doesn't have any refference to the name. Greece has a continued use of the name since the 19th century war of independence as well as useage of the name Macedonia Bulgar, Serb, Avar, etc but not Macedonian. While the geographical region is correct the people who live there today are not -- Orestes1984 ( talk) 12:53, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
This is not an issue we are concerned with in Wikipedia. Leave politics to the politicians. GK1973 ( talk) 13:56, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
I erased the part about Macedon having been a local phylarch not because it is incorrect, but because it has to be sourced first to be sure that no mistake is made (for example, I think that the text where the phylarch Macedon was mentioned was not ancient, unless it was Strabo.... I am really not sure right now, but I am pretty sure that he was not described as a phylarch of the Makednoi, anyways, I just want to find the exact extract first and then we can add it back)
Nevertheless, I do not think that this "etymology" is appropriate as given. "Macedonia" means "land of the Macedonians". What we are giving here is the etymology of the word "Macedonian" and not "Macedonia". We could just redirect to the appropriate article to give a deeper etymology, but I think it does not belong here. GK1973 ( talk) 15:48, 12 February 2010 (UTC) MACEDONIA IS NOT PART OF GREECE, BUT GREECE IS PART OF BIG MACEDONIA. MACEDONIA IS NOT FYROM !!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.14.133 ( talk) 12:14, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
There is a misconception that "the name 'Macedonia' was forbidden in Greece prior to 1988" that is propagated over the internet. However, it is easy to disprove this by looking at any Greek map or encyclopedia of school book of this time. The Greeks did suppress the use of the word "μακεδονικός/ή" for the language or the ethnic group, but not the word "Μακεδονία" for the territory.
"Macedonia" (Μακεδονία) was a legitimate administrative region of Greece until the 1987 administrative reform. The Greek region (διαμέρισμα) in question was called officially "Μακεδονία", and was not known under any other name, until the administrative reform of 1987, when three new administrative divisions were formed, all three having the word Μακεδονία as part of thier name. The previous "Minister for Northern Greece" (until 2009 called " Minister for Macdenonia-Thrace" [7]) was responsible for two regions, Macedonia and Τhrace.
Here is a Greek map from 1919:
Here is a coin from 1963 [10] [11].
Map on a Greek school book of 1977 [12] (see legend at lower right corner).
Notice also that the popular Thessaloniki dayly Makedonia has been published under this name since 1911. Andreas (T) 01:46, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
We have an agreed and well-established formula for the names. We all respect it and we all revert people like user 79.125.225.52. Politis ( talk) 22:50, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Here is a school book on Greek geography [15], published in 1967 by the state-affiliated Organisation for the Publication of School Books. The chapter on Makedonia starts at page 102 with a map on page 103.
On page 103 you can read : "Ἀλλ’ ὅλην τὴν Μακεδονίαν δὲν τὴν κατέχει σήμερον ἡ ῾Ελλάς. Τὸ βόρειον μέρος της τὸ κατέχουν δύο ἄλλα κράτη, ἡ Νοτιοσλαβία καὶ ἡ Βουλγαρία." (My tranlsation: But Greece today does not containe the whole of Macedonia. Its northern Part is contained by two other states, Yugoslavia and Bulgaria).
Read also on page 122 that "Greek Macedonia has about 1,890,00 inhabitants. It is an Administrative Region and is divided into nine prefectures" (my translation). On page 214, you will find a map of the areas that were incorporated into the Greek state at various times. The 1939 edition [16] contains basically the same information. Andreas (T) 03:34, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
can you find a schoolbook of ethnic Macedonians from Greece on Greek Slavic from 1946 till present where it is written Macedonia for that specific region? tnx 89.205.7.164 ( talk) 13:28, 22 January 2011 (UTC) user:mak
The anonymous editors are just playing. I think that soon they will ask Andreas to send them copies of the book and a few of those silver 30 drachma coins :-) And they will still pretend that they want more proof. The fact is that the Greek state has, since 1913, called one of its northern provinces Macedonia. Politis ( talk) 23:32, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Phil, good idea to lock page for unregistered user and, I hope, for registered users of recent arrival. By the way, I think that quite a few editor who would identify as ethnic Macedonians must be against the vandalism of the anonymous editors. Politis ( talk) 17:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
To anyone interested in boosting the chronology of references here is a reference from a 1943 book by Athenian (Stephen Lavra), The Greek Miracle, published 1943, page 105, "Even in those provinces most exposed to attack [by Hitler's army], Thrace and Macedonia, the same enthusiasm and the same loyalty dominated the population" [17] Politis ( talk) 11:41, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
I think it is right to use only the term "Prefecture" instead of Province for the Greek Macedonia, because first of all it is the direct and more accurate translation of Νομός/Nomos, and secondly because "Pronince" implies a type of autonomy for a region in our times, i.e. like the Canadian "Provinces" vs Canadian "Territories", and compared to American "States". --Ἑλλαιβάριος/Ellaivarios 15:42, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
"Prefecture" is the conventional translation of "nomos", but Macedonia isn't a nomos; the nomos units are/were much smaller, and Macedonia consists of many of them. The relevant administrative division is at the "decentralized administrations" level (since 2010), or the "periphery" level (before 2010), or the " "diamerisma" level (prior to the 1980s). The trouble here is that Greek Macedonia isn't in fact any single administrative unit today at all – it is made up of two and a half "peripheries", and parts of three different "administrations". As for the old diamerisma of Macedonia, you could translate it as "department", or "province", or "region" (as our Regions of Greece article does). Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
I updated this section with the content from the press release of the UN's International Court of Justice. [18] I moved the political statements, some of which are not sourced, some of which are irrelevant (such as: "The EU has so far not commented" -what kind of information is that?!) to a sub-section. I took the content of the positions of the parties in front of the Court in full, as it is written in the press release, in order to maintain the correctness and impartiality (if any of the authors of this article is interested in such categories). Please do not delete this part, because it gives accurate information about the court proceeding, as it is viewed by the Court itself. Please discuss here prior to making any alterations. Crnorizec ( talk) 22:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
According to article: The ongoing dispute has not prevented the two countries from enjoying close trade links and investment levels (especially from Greece), but it has generated a great deal of political and academic debate on both sides.
According to BBC: Soon after Yugoslavia's southernmost republic declared itself independent under the name Republic of Macedonia in 1991, Greece imposed a trade embargo. The embargo was lifted when Macedonia agreed in 1995 to change its flag and constitution and apply to join international institutions under the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, while negotiations continued over the name.
So there was a trade embargo, so what the article says is not true.-- Bizso ( talk) 01:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I put in a tiny properly sourced price of the statue of Alexander the Great in the Macedonian capital Skopje with the sentence itself also mentioning it was Italian made. The price was $13 million or €9 million. I thought it was relevant to show how much this "Antiquisation" policy is costing the Macedonian people as even many Macedonians are unhappy with how much is being spent on this remodeling. Also the Philip II Statue opposite will be around the same price. The price edit was immediately removed by Taivo who said it was irrelevant (?) Does everyone else think the price of the statues is irrelevant to the "Antiquisation" policy section? What are your opinions? Reaper7 ( talk) 04:10, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
--- The price is not floated with no apparent tie to anything that preceded it. The statue is mentioned and I simply added the referenced price to give the reader an idea of howmuch this policy is costing the Macedonian public, which you deemed irrelevant and immediately removed. You could be right on this - that no one cares how much the statue/s is costing Macedonia or indeed the "Antiquisation" policy itself. I am just curious if others think it is relevant. Reaper7 ( talk) 13:47, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Original sentence: In 2011, a massive, 22m tall statue of Alexander the Great was inaugurated in Macedonia Square in Skopje, as part of of the Skopje 2014 remodeling of the city. [1]
My edit: In 2011, a massive, 22m tall statue of Alexander the Great costing Macedonia nine million euros ($13 million), was inaugurated in Macedonia Square in Skopje, as part of of the Skopje 2014 remodeling of the city. [2] [1]
The "newspaper" tag that was recently inserted by a POV pushing anonymous editor is simply another attempt in a long line of WP:POINTy editing attempts to push an anti-Macedonian point-of-view. -- Taivo ( talk) 22:54, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Since there aren't any official data available and many people are wondering, I've asked for information. I've just sent this to FM Poposki's office.
I believe that two weeks are enough for an answer (that's until the end of January). After all, they should readily know which countries recognise them using their name. If a) they don't respond, and b) nobody else has reliable, verifiable information, I will follow the appropriate editing procedures in February. Eldar73 ( talk) 21:11, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
RoM's MFA didn't respond. We have a single source, involved in the dispute, unable to verify the claim. What are your thoughts? Eldar73 ( talk) 14:34, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I haven't looked at the edits disputed above, but I have a remark about the issue at hand. Of course MFA claims like "133 countries do that" will look much better if the list is appended. Unfortunately they haven't provided such yet. And I doubt they will reply to an email asking for such list. If you really want to get this you should contact a journalist, who can semi-officially request the information - or simply confront the minister the next time he says "133 countries" with "which ones exactly?". Japinderum ( talk) 15:12, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Panama, Mexico, DR Congo - do we have sources do we have about these using FYROM? From the glimpse I made it seems that there is only a debunked Greek statement about that.
Vatican City - sources in the article (and [20]) point at FYROM. There is only one where RoM is utilized, but it seems of secondary passer-by nature.
Albania - sources in the article point at RoM. But there is one odd FYROM reference.
I don't say that we should move any of those, but only raise the point for others to look into. Japinderum ( talk) 14:29, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
We have conflicting Macedonian and Greek statements. We have Mexico MFA statement about using FYROM both in international and bilateral context. So, clearly - FYROM. Japinderum ( talk) 07:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
We have conflicting Macedonian and Greek statements. Macedonian refutal of Greek statement involves also Mexico (proven wrong) - is this sufficient to move conclude that Greek statement is correct also for Panama and DRCongo (e.g. move these from inconclusive to FYROM)? Japinderum ( talk) 07:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Almost all sources point to FYROM [21], [22], [23] (these include statements, lists of diplomatic relations, etc.) One single source [24] omits "former Yugoslav", but this is a shorthand in spoken language (it's a citation of a speech) - not in official diplomatic document. So, should we move Vatican from inconclusive to FYROM? Japinderum ( talk) 07:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Dead link sources unknown whether FYROM or RoM:
Irrelevant sources - such that are showing usage in international context (where it's FYROM even for states using RoM bilaterally)
Sources with FYROM:
Sources with RoM:
The only FYROM source is a web page (albeit on the Albanian MFA). The RoM sources are official international treaty and official document of Albania state protocol. So, should we move Albania from inconclusive to RoM? Japinderum ( talk) 07:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
There is a massive new/ancient style arch22 meter tall and an epic statue of Alexander the Great also 22 meters tall/. The project has cost so far half a billion Euros and it is an important state project to project the state's beliefs that it is indeed an ancient state associated with Ancient Macedonia. Why would it be inappropriate to mention it? Who would it offend? Greeks? I say we add it. Zeno77 ( talk) 20:24, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
I would like to point to the fact that the article lacks the very important role played on this issue by the other three countries occupying territory of the geographic region of Macedonia, namely by Bulgaria, Albania and Serbia. The article seems to have been reduced to a mere Greek-Fyrom dispute, although it certainly involves (I mean the pure naming diplomatic question) the above countries too.
What are their position and reaction with regard to the matter? For certainly there is one, at least in the case of Bulgaria, as far as I know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.65.45.85 ( talk) 23:14, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Check also this new source about the naming dispute. It is a Phd thesis (2011) from Umeå University / Sweden:
Erik Sjöberg (2011). Battlefields of Memory The Macedonian Conflict and Greek Historical Culture (PDF). Sweden: Umeå University - Phd Thesis. ISBN 978-91-7459-329-7.
Ggia ( talk) 13:20, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
In the section of the article Background: Controversy the Roman name for a part of the province is given as "Macedonia Salutaris" ("coinciding with most of the modern Greek region of Macedonia, and Macedonia Salutaris ("second Macedonia") in the north").
"Salutaris" is then translated as "second", which meaning for salutaris is not in A Latin Dictionary (Lewis & Short). The Wiki article Macedonia (Roman province) translates salutaris as "advantageous", which is a possible translation of salutaris according to A Latin Dictionary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.18.110.176 ( talk) 17:06, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
At least on my browser the section "Naming policies of foreign countries and organisations" renders badly since the image is pushing the list of countries off to the side. I don't know enough about MediaWiki to fix it, but I thought I'd bring it to someone's attention to see if someone more capable could fix it.
superman ( talk) 09:31, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
The admission of Macedonia to membership in the United Nations in April 1993 required the new member to be “provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as ‘the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’ pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State.” The term “difference” here refers to the dispute between Greece and Macedonia over the use of the applicant state’s name. In its Resolution 817 of April 7, 1993 (by which the applicant state was recommended for admission to the United Nations), the Security Council “urge[d] the parties to continue to cooperate with the Co-Chairmen of the Steering Committee of the International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia in order to arrive at a speedy settlement of their difference.” Thus, the admission of Macedonia to the United Nations was subject to its acceptance of being provisionally referred to as the “Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” (FYROM) and of negotiating with Greece over its name. The conditions for the admission of states were the subject of exhaustive political and legal deliberations at the United Nations during the 1940s when many states were applying for membership. During the first several years of the Organizations’ existence, admission to, and even representation in, the United Nations were subject to various conditions (outside the scope of those contained in Article 4 of the Charter), which in some cases required recognition of the applicant (as an international subject) prior to its admission to membership. In an effort to resolve the dilemmas regarding the legal aspects of the conditions required for admission to membership and to eliminate the various stalemates that were occurring in the admission process, the UN General Assembly, by Resolution 113 (II) of November 17, 1947, requested that the International Court of Justice give an advisory opinion on the following question: Is a Member of the United Nations which is called upon, in virtue of Article 4 of the Charter, to pronounce itself by its vote, either in the Security Council or in the General Assembly, on the admission of a State to membership in the United Nations, juridically entitled to make its consent to the admission dependent on conditions not expressly provided by paragraph 1 of the said Article? The following conditions are expressly set forth in Article 4, paragraph 1 of the UN Charter, which provides: “Membership in the United Nations is open to all other [i.e., other than the original UN members] peaceloving states which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter and, in the judgment of Organization, are able and willing to carry out these obligations.” The next paragraph of the article states the procedural rule that “[t]he admission of any such state to membership in the United Nations will be effected by a decision of the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council.” In its Advisory Opinion, Admission of a State to the United Nations, the Court first concluded that the question put to it in an abstract form had a legal nature. Consequently, the Court was required to provide an interpretation of Article 4, paragraph 1 of the Charter and, by virtue of Article 96 of the Charter and Article 65 of its Statute and as “the principal judicial organ of the United Nations,” it had the competence to give such an interpretation. The Court then observed that paragraph 1 of Article 4 in effect contains five conditions; to be admitted to membership in the United Nations, an applicant must (1) be a state; (2) be peace-loving; (3) accept the obligations of the UN Charter; (4) be able to carry out these obligations; and (5) be willing to do so. Further, the Court found that the question put to it by the General Assembly could be reduced to the following: are the conditions stated in paragraph 1 of Article 4 exhaustive in character in the sense that an affirmative reply would lead to the conclusion that a Member is not legally entitled to make admission dependent on conditions not expressly provided for in that Article, while a negative reply would, on the contrary, authorize a Member to make admission dependent also on other conditions.
After thorough consideration, the International Court of Justice formulated its advisory opinion stating that a member of the United Nations that is called upon, by virtue of Article 4 of the Charter, to pronounce itself by its vote, either in the Security Council or in the General Assembly, on the admission of a state to membership in the Organization, is not juridically entitled to make its consent dependent on conditions not expressly provided in paragraph 1 of that article. Among the most important arguments used by the Court in arriving at the above opinion were that (1) the UN Charter is a multilateral treaty whose provisions impose obligations on its members; (2) the text of paragraph 1 of Article 4, “by the enumeration which it contains and the choice of its terms, clearly demonstrates the intention of its authors to establish a legal rule which, while it fixes the conditions of admission, determines also the reasons for which admission may be refused”; and (3) the enumeration of the conditions in paragraph 1 of Article 4 is exhaustive (and “not merely stated by way of guidance or example”), which follows from the fact that if the opposite were the case, “[i]t would lead to conferring upon Members an indefinite and practically unlimited power of discretion in the imposition of new conditions.” In its deliberations, the Court specifically analyzed whether the political character of the organs responsible for admission (the Security Council and the General Assembly, by virtue of paragraph 2 of Article 4), or for the maintenance of world peace (the Security Council, pursuant to Article 24 of the Charter), engendered arguments leading to the contrary conclusion regarding the exhaustive character of the conditions enumerated in paragraph 1 of Article 4. The Court rejected this interpretation and held that “[t]he political character of an organ cannot release it from the observance of the treaty provisions established by the Charter when they constitute limitations on its powers or criteria for its judgment.”11 Thus, the Charter limits the freedom of political organs and no “political considerations” can be superimposed on, or added to, the conditions set forth in Article 4 that could prevent admission to membership. (The advisory opinion of the Court makes it apparent that, besides their exhaustive and explicit character, the conditions laid down in Article 4 of the Charter have two additional characteristics: (1) they must be fulfilled before admission is effected; and (2) once they are recognized as having been fulfilled, the applicant state acquires an unconditional right to UN membership. This last feature also follows from the “openness” to membership enshrined in Article 4, which comports with the universal character of the Organization.) The advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice was presented to the General Assembly at its third session, in December 1948. At that session the General Assembly adopted Resolution 197 (III), by which it “[r]ecommend[ed] that each member of the Security Council and of the General Assembly, in exercising its vote on the admission of new Members, should act in accordance with the foregoing opinion of the International Court of Justice.”
(This resolution and the Court’s advisory opinion have direct legal relevance to the issue of the admission of Macedonia to membership in the United Nations, since these documents interpret the Charter in a manner that limits the power of the UN organs to impose conditions on admission. The preamble to Security Council Resolution 817, by which Macedonia was recommended for admission, recognized that “the applicant fulfils the criteria for membership laid down in Article 4 of the Charter of the United Nations.” According to Admission of a State to the United Nations and General Assembly Resolution 197, this statement means that the applicant has fulfilled all the required conditions for admission to membership in the United Nations and that no other conditions may be imposed. Contrary to the usual wording of Security Council resolutions recommending admission of a state, Resolution 817, after recognizing the fulfillment of the conditions in Article 4, contains an additional consideration, “that a difference has arisen over the name of the State, which needs to be resolved in the interest of the maintenance of peaceful and good-neighbourly relations in the region.” This condition, which is found in the introductory part of the resolution, is reflected in its paragraph 2, which recommends the admission of the applicant state to membership in the United Nations. It describes “this State” as “being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as ‘the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’ pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State.” The Macedonian Government strongly objected to the use of this provisional name, stating that “under no circumstances” was it prepared to accept that designation as the name for the country. Nevertheless, the text of the resolution remained unchanged. As a consequence, the imposed obligation to accept this provisional denomination and the closely related obligation to negotiate over the name of the country served as additional conditions that it was required to satisfy so as to gain admission to the United Nations. These unusual conditions in Resolution 817 are extraneous to the limited list laid down in Article 4. Furthermore, these conditions transcend the act of admission in time. Since the Charter makes no provision for other conditions for admission, it appears that the conditions imposed on Macedonia have no legal basis. Certainly, the ICJ’s advisory opinion makes clear that all the conditions for admission to membership must be fulfilled before admission is effected. Since the conditions that were imposed represent purely political considerations, they are incompatible with the letter and spirit of the UN Charter.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.92.187.253 ( talk) 16:38, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
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There are 2 problems here - firstly the word "ethnic". This does not belong here - as someone notes in parenthesis. Firstly, the Greek people that 'identify themselves' as Macedonian do so not because of ethnicity (a convoluted term) but because of origin. In other words, simply put, they live in or hail from the Greek state of Macedonia. Secondly, using this word is highly politically charged giving the impression that they are an ethnic group in a region which is not their own or where they are in a minority. See [31] or [32]. The term is simply not needed.
The second problem: "identify themselves as" - again is highly convoluted and not needed. Again it is politically charged by implying a weak connection to the area of origin. I am from the county of Oxfordshire in the UK as this is where I was born and have lived my entire adult life. I would never say, or never be described as, "identifying myself as being from Oxfordshire" or that I identify myself as English.
I could be wrong, but this terminology looks politically motivated. I would propose the following (probably can be improved but you get the point):
Actually, not even that. The text in brackets ("unclear in what sense if not ethnic") is blatantly untrue. It should simply be replaced with "clearly in a regional sense only". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.44.209 ( talk) 16:28, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
The map is entitled "Geographic and political division of Macedonia" and yet there is a big grey line that covers the Republic of Macedonia and the Greek state called Modern Geographical Macedonia. This is neither a political division or a geographic division. Should this be on this map in this section? I suggest this should be in only the article on this subject. GoldenClockCar ( talk) 12:38, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
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The last sentence "Economic relations and cooperation have resumed to such an extent that Greece is now considered one of the Republic's most important foreign economic partners and investors.[46]" under the subsection "Stalemate" should therefore be removed as the reference (46) has expired, no longer exists and/or is irretrievable. 120.148.93.147 ( talk) 07:48, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
{{
dead link}}
to the cite.
Sam Sailor
Sing
10:57, 10 April 2014 (UTC)http://www.vlada.mk/?q=node/1347 example source 179: THAT RUSSIA-PERMANENT SECURITY COUNCIL MEMBER RECOGNISES MACEDONIA IN OFICIAL TEXT DOCUMENTS...>Leads to a random link about gynecology. Severely inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zergbot123 ( talk • contribs) 20:19, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
I am a total stranger to this controversial article. I just read it and I see necessary a change: Template `Politics of Macedonia" should come before the template "Politics of Greece" as certainly the issue is a much more vital one for Macedonia than for Greece. Therefore I am changing their places, after 5 minutes. Please don't shoot me for this, if you think I am wrong just revert me and I will not begin an edit war on something I never edited before. (Indeed I wouldn't begin an edit war on anything, I hope. :-) -- Why should I have a User Name? ( talk) 11:45, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
<long rant by sock IP snipped> – 212.83.144.225 ( talk) 00:11, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Another sock attempt by Operahome ( talk · contribs). Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:42, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Browsing through the talk history I have only found remarks on the very poor verifiability of the list in the article and hardly anyone talking in support of it. I dare say there was actually a consensus that was never realized to delete this content and place a concentrated summary in its place. After a glance at the sources provided, it is evident of use of non-reliable webpages (even those are misrepresented) and no official sources are given at most cases. The whole section oozes of WP:synthesis. The undertaking of the wiki in making this enumeration that no-one else has enumerated reliably (so as to cite to as a source), means this section is original research. There is no official document by either of the two countries involved that enumerates the countries said to be supporting their respective clauses. The only strongly sourced part is a dated claim of a number (137?) supporting the one side (but no list) and only a couple of official documents with explicit identification of some country's position (e.g. a NATO document explicitly referring to Turkey's stance).
With this state of things is it in accordance with the wiki policies to leave this list here as it stands? We could more reliably find sources on the big ones positions and give a more readable and informative summary.
Besides this article has been tagged as too long; if we must absolutely have to have an exhaustive list of the position of all the countries in the whole world (and I don't see the reason we ought to), why not move that to a separate (main) article List of sovereign entities' positions on the Macedonia naming dispute or something like that so that it can take its rightful place in the boring part of the wiki, together with List of diplomatic missions of Palestine or the article International recognition of Kosovo which comprises mostly of a list of countries.
Keep also in mind that the citations section has grown to stupendous size mostly because of the appearance of this list and adds even more to the size of the article. Shadowmorph ^"^ 14:40, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
Just for curiosity: Why does "Republika Makedonija" translate as "Republic of Macedonia" and not "Macedonian Republic"? Where is the "of"? (I know that "Republic of Macedonia" is the common name in English, I just wonder why.) -- Why should I have a User Name? ( talk) 11:52, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
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The non-working reference on the UN interim agreement [29 "Interim Accord" (PDF). United Nations. 1995. Retrieved 2008-11-07.[dead link]] can be accessed here: [3] Bargme ( talk) 10:47, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
References
Georgievski
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia) shows that no usage of FYROM allowed, plus there are guidelines for usage of Republic of... Anyone? Kirev ( talk) 12:01, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Kirev ( talk) 22:13, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
I believe that the chapter has nothing to do with the "Name dispute". Most scholars accept that the "Ancient Macedonian language", was related with the Ancient Greek language, and this is not a Greek invention. ( The names of the kings etc, are Greek). There is a propaganda that it was not Greek, just to show that there is not any continuity between the Greek Macedonia and the Ancient Macedonia. During the Ottoman empire, many languages were spoken in the region. A lot of people with Albanian origin became citizents of the new Greek state. Both sides are responsible for the "Name dispute", but it has nothing to do with the languages. Jestmoon(talk) 11:34, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
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Please change 'former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' to 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' to ensure it is correctly written as a proper noun naming the nation as it was entered into the UN. 124.169.131.203 ( talk) 15:12, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
The description "bankrupt southern neighbour" shows a fanatic character, not suitable to a scholar. Greece lost too much from the Macedonian problem. The problem is not the name ,but the existence of maps (also in Wikipedia), with a region called "Macedonia". This region includes Greek Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, and parts of Bulgaria, Albania and Serbia. During the Greek civil war, there was a plan for the establishment of an independent state with the name "Macedonia". This was the main reason for the population movements which followed. The citizents of Greek Macedonia, are not afraid of their neigbours or their name, but they are afraid of the "Great Powers", which will probably in future decide the establishment of an independent state in the hypothetical region "Macedonia". Historically, this region never existed, and nobody knows its borders. When USA bombed Yugoslavia, they said that the reason was not to take Kosovo from Yugoslavia. Now Kosovo is independent. Jestmoon(talk) 21:36, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
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