This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Má vlast article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Somebody changed "Bohemia" in this article to "Czechia". To be quite honest, I don't know which one is more correct, but I don't think we should use "Czechia" in the article because it's completely unfamiliar to English speakers - when I saw it, I assumed it was some state which later became a part of the Czech Republic (or perhaps rather Czechoslovakia) rather than a synonym for it, which it seems to be. If "Czechoslovakia" is correct, then lets say that, not "Czechia".
As I say, I'm really not sure what is correct - I've changed it back to Bohemia, partly to get rid of the unfamilar "Czechia" and partly because as far as I know Bohemia was the state in existence at that time, but then we describe Smetana as a "Czech" composer, so I don't know. -- Camembert
"Czechia" is correct. It means the Czech Lands or Czech state, then Bohemia, Moravia and partly Silesia together, now the Czech Rebublic, which is the political name of that country only since 1993, when Czechoslovakia (Czechia+Slovakia) dissolved. "Czechia" is the similar case as "Germany". There are Bavaria, Saxony e.c., but the whole area, the whole nation, is generally known as Germany. Czechia exists since 9th century. I thing Bohemia in this article isn't wrong, but if it refers to the whole country, then Czechia would be better. I strongly recommend two articles about "Czechia" here: Czech Republic
Yes, but Czechia is a special case. The word Czech is derived from the Czech word Čechy, which means Bohemia. Thus, Czech Republic essentially means Bohemian Republic, although the Czech Republic refers to more than just Bohemia. This has created some complicated problems among linguists, politicians, etc., as to how it should properly be treated. In the mean time, the Czech Republic has made a point of trying to promote the name Czechia to English speakers, as it is common to have a short name for a country; one rarely says the "Federal Republic of Germany," for example, or the "Kingdom of the Netherlands." In this case, however, Smetana was referring to his native land, Bohemia (which, as I mentioned, is Čechy in the Czech language). At that point in time, Bohemia was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and other than that was completely separate from Silesia and Moravia. -- Phil Bastian 20:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Correct term is either Bohemia or nowdays Czech Republic. viz Czech Republic constitution. 71.99.92.124 ( talk) 14:04, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
In Czech language the word "vlast" is not capitalized (see e.g. [1] - English tranlsation is "My Country", Czech "Má vlast"). I removed the tag asking to move it to "Má Vlast". Perhaps if the name got partially englicised. Pavel Vozenilek 20:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
A fine set of musical quotes as jpegs and midi files are available on the corresponding French page. I've copied only the most important example; anyone with time to do the rest is most welcome. Also given are durations of the numbers. Coughinink 03:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the translation to "My Country" here is appropriate. In Czech, the word country is translated Stát. I am not an expert on Czech, but in German (which, while not a Slavic language has definite cultural ties that influence language) the word Vaterland has a special meaning which is different from that of the word country. It tends to be more romantic, patriotic, etc. One would never refer to a foreign fatherland, for instance. It evokes a certain passion which is not present in the word country. I imagine that Smetana wanted to evoke this passion in the piece. -- Phil Bastian 20:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it'd be prudent to note that in recordings, Vltava is almost exclusively the only one that gets presented seperately (I've seen a couple with Vyšehrad or Z českých luhů a hájů, but none of the other three), and there are many recordings of the complete cycle. I can't figure out a good way to word it, or where it would go, though. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 16:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I edited the wording on the 'High Castle' section about Smetana's composing deaf. The piano manuscripts for the first movement were composed between 1872 and 1874. Smetana did not begin to noticeably lose hearing until the summer of 1874 and was completely deaf by the end of October. This means that the first movement was the only one to be (mostly) composed while he could still hear reasonably well. Vltava was also partially complete by the time that Smetana began to lose hearing. None of the symphonic poems were published until he was deaf (between 1880 and 1894). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.126.117.76 ( talk) 00:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC).
That picture of the score of 'Vltava' is wrong. The image shows the piece in G major, whereas the piece is in fact in E minor; furthermore, there are some inaccurate representations of rhythm. I recommend the image be either edited or removed. 141.157.81.43 20:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The climax of the piece is in G major, by the way. 70.60.41.50 17:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
In my studies of the Romantic and Classical music periods, I've seen some interesting things in compositions, but I'd like to confirm that this piece is really in E minor as opposed to G major, and moving to the relative minor over the progression of the symphonic poem? The bulk of the work is in the G major tonality, and moves to the minor tonality at key points. If the majority of the work is in a major tonality, shouldn't it be noted in the appropriate section as such? If there are no objections, I will note that it is in E minor, but is mostly major in tone. deadlyMETAL | Discuss? 22:28, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Given how the cite tag has been yoyoing in and out I thought it might be an idea to provide the reference myself. However, of my three recordings only one provides relevant commentary and that is rather different from what we have in the article. It iss the James Levine/Wiener Philharmoniker/DG recording 419 768-2 with bar code 0 28941 97682 6.
The English language notes by Jan Smaczny say
The splendid and evocative melody which runs through the composition, like the river it depicts flowing through the Bohemian landscape derives from a Swedish folksong. Ther may be another source, since a very similar theme in 3/4 time occurs in a Ballada in Karel Sebor's opera The Templars in Moravia premiered in 1865, which Smetana knew well.
(the S in Sebor's name should have an accent, but I cant easilly get it here.) Thats on page 11 of the booklet. Meanwhile on page 7, Kurt Honolka writes
Das einpraegsame Hauptthema so-smetanaisch-tschechisch es klingt, ist aus einer uralten europaeischen Wander melodoe abgeleitet, die, zum beispiel im deutschen Kinderlied >>Alle meine Entchen<< und in der Nationalhymne des jungen Staates Israel wiederkehrt, die aber auch mit der motivschen Keimzelle von Smetanas Oper >>Dalibor<< verwandt ist.
(I've flattened the umlauts into "e"s and the typography on the Germanic quotation marks are slightly different.) The French notes don't mention the origins of the theme and the Italian notes are a translation of Honalka's German.
We've got enough evidence here to say that the theme was widely used in folk songs but it strikes me that actually calling the theme La Mantovana needs separate support and referencing.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 11:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
This is bit dated, as del Biado's authorship has since been established. "...>From Jewish-Music, 12/29/99 The tune is *much* older than "The Moldau" from Smetana's "Ma Vlast," and seems to have come from further west. This is what, as a musicologist, I have been able to discover about the origin of the "Hatikvah" tune: "Hatikvah"/"La Montovana" FAQ (first written and posted in June, 1997) The first known appearance of the "HaTikvah" tune was in an intermedio of 1608, performed during celebrations of a Gonzaga wedding in Mantua. Several composers collaborated on the music for this performance: they were Claudio Monteverdi, his brother Giulio Cesare Monteverdi, Giovanni Gastoldi, and Salamone Rossi. Which composer used the tune is not known, although the fact that there are other tunes also called by some version of the name "Mantovana," and that some of them are known to be by Gastoldi, is suggestive. (The lutenist James Tyler attributes it to Gastoldi on stylistic grounds, and that seems plausible to me.) There is no evidence that this music was a setting of a pre-existent tune rather than a new composition -- we simply don't know. The tune became very popular: it was used for Italian madrigals (Cataneo), solo songs ("Giuseppino"), guitar settings (Pico), instrumental settings in Renaissance style (Zanetti, Giamberti, anonymous), violin divisions [i.e., variations] (anonymous), trio sonatas (Marini), and was published in England in Playford's collections of country dances. It is not known where Smetana (1824-1884) got the tune, but he seems to have believed that it was a Czech folk tune. It is also not known for sure where Naftali Herz Imber (1856-1909) got the tune, to which he wrote only the words (being a poet, not a composer). Edith Gerson-Kiwi, in "Grove" (Vol. 9, p. 359), refers to the tune as a "Romanian folksong." It is quite possible that Imber simply took the tune from the "Moldau" movement of Smetana's "Ma Vlast" (composed in 1874), and no evidence whatsoever that he did not do so. Hope Ehn <ehn (at) world(dot)std(dot)com> (M.M., music history, New England Conservatory; " - Galassi ( talk) 20:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
The recordings posted are perhaps free, but of highly dubious quality to say the least; if you can pass it through a proper wikipedia vote, be my guest. Until then, forget it.
Changed it back. Unfortunately, the "I'm a little tea pot" theme in the Moldau is one of those things that is so obvious and trivial that it is apparently beneath scholarly mention these days in anything google-searchable, like the fact the earth is round.
And yes, having been here for years and years, I know one can be challenged on the spherocity of the earth too. Unfortunately, the evidence for the latter is only indirect, whil one has only to listen to the moldau. However, there are lots of mentions on-line. Suggest it be left with a "citation-needed" tag so hopefully somebody can cite the obvious. Drjem3 ( talk) 21:31, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure I've also seen this as "Z českých luhův a hájův." Would that be a slightly archaic version (from Smetana's time, perhaps)? Kostaki mou ( talk) 23:55, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Má vlast. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:04, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
If multiple translations are to be used, normally only the one relevant to the current localization should be mentioned. i.e. why is there mention the german eqivalant in the English article? Is there some data to show that its a frequently used title in english speaking countries? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:1000:5710:69B:351A:195C:5BFC ( talk) 18:32, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
I've always heard it translated as My Homeland, but I see it's now been changed to My Fatherland, which I also think is somewhat undesirable. Are there any sources to guide this? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 23:00, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Má vlast article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Somebody changed "Bohemia" in this article to "Czechia". To be quite honest, I don't know which one is more correct, but I don't think we should use "Czechia" in the article because it's completely unfamiliar to English speakers - when I saw it, I assumed it was some state which later became a part of the Czech Republic (or perhaps rather Czechoslovakia) rather than a synonym for it, which it seems to be. If "Czechoslovakia" is correct, then lets say that, not "Czechia".
As I say, I'm really not sure what is correct - I've changed it back to Bohemia, partly to get rid of the unfamilar "Czechia" and partly because as far as I know Bohemia was the state in existence at that time, but then we describe Smetana as a "Czech" composer, so I don't know. -- Camembert
"Czechia" is correct. It means the Czech Lands or Czech state, then Bohemia, Moravia and partly Silesia together, now the Czech Rebublic, which is the political name of that country only since 1993, when Czechoslovakia (Czechia+Slovakia) dissolved. "Czechia" is the similar case as "Germany". There are Bavaria, Saxony e.c., but the whole area, the whole nation, is generally known as Germany. Czechia exists since 9th century. I thing Bohemia in this article isn't wrong, but if it refers to the whole country, then Czechia would be better. I strongly recommend two articles about "Czechia" here: Czech Republic
Yes, but Czechia is a special case. The word Czech is derived from the Czech word Čechy, which means Bohemia. Thus, Czech Republic essentially means Bohemian Republic, although the Czech Republic refers to more than just Bohemia. This has created some complicated problems among linguists, politicians, etc., as to how it should properly be treated. In the mean time, the Czech Republic has made a point of trying to promote the name Czechia to English speakers, as it is common to have a short name for a country; one rarely says the "Federal Republic of Germany," for example, or the "Kingdom of the Netherlands." In this case, however, Smetana was referring to his native land, Bohemia (which, as I mentioned, is Čechy in the Czech language). At that point in time, Bohemia was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and other than that was completely separate from Silesia and Moravia. -- Phil Bastian 20:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Correct term is either Bohemia or nowdays Czech Republic. viz Czech Republic constitution. 71.99.92.124 ( talk) 14:04, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
In Czech language the word "vlast" is not capitalized (see e.g. [1] - English tranlsation is "My Country", Czech "Má vlast"). I removed the tag asking to move it to "Má Vlast". Perhaps if the name got partially englicised. Pavel Vozenilek 20:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
A fine set of musical quotes as jpegs and midi files are available on the corresponding French page. I've copied only the most important example; anyone with time to do the rest is most welcome. Also given are durations of the numbers. Coughinink 03:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the translation to "My Country" here is appropriate. In Czech, the word country is translated Stát. I am not an expert on Czech, but in German (which, while not a Slavic language has definite cultural ties that influence language) the word Vaterland has a special meaning which is different from that of the word country. It tends to be more romantic, patriotic, etc. One would never refer to a foreign fatherland, for instance. It evokes a certain passion which is not present in the word country. I imagine that Smetana wanted to evoke this passion in the piece. -- Phil Bastian 20:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it'd be prudent to note that in recordings, Vltava is almost exclusively the only one that gets presented seperately (I've seen a couple with Vyšehrad or Z českých luhů a hájů, but none of the other three), and there are many recordings of the complete cycle. I can't figure out a good way to word it, or where it would go, though. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 16:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I edited the wording on the 'High Castle' section about Smetana's composing deaf. The piano manuscripts for the first movement were composed between 1872 and 1874. Smetana did not begin to noticeably lose hearing until the summer of 1874 and was completely deaf by the end of October. This means that the first movement was the only one to be (mostly) composed while he could still hear reasonably well. Vltava was also partially complete by the time that Smetana began to lose hearing. None of the symphonic poems were published until he was deaf (between 1880 and 1894). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.126.117.76 ( talk) 00:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC).
That picture of the score of 'Vltava' is wrong. The image shows the piece in G major, whereas the piece is in fact in E minor; furthermore, there are some inaccurate representations of rhythm. I recommend the image be either edited or removed. 141.157.81.43 20:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
The climax of the piece is in G major, by the way. 70.60.41.50 17:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
In my studies of the Romantic and Classical music periods, I've seen some interesting things in compositions, but I'd like to confirm that this piece is really in E minor as opposed to G major, and moving to the relative minor over the progression of the symphonic poem? The bulk of the work is in the G major tonality, and moves to the minor tonality at key points. If the majority of the work is in a major tonality, shouldn't it be noted in the appropriate section as such? If there are no objections, I will note that it is in E minor, but is mostly major in tone. deadlyMETAL | Discuss? 22:28, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Given how the cite tag has been yoyoing in and out I thought it might be an idea to provide the reference myself. However, of my three recordings only one provides relevant commentary and that is rather different from what we have in the article. It iss the James Levine/Wiener Philharmoniker/DG recording 419 768-2 with bar code 0 28941 97682 6.
The English language notes by Jan Smaczny say
The splendid and evocative melody which runs through the composition, like the river it depicts flowing through the Bohemian landscape derives from a Swedish folksong. Ther may be another source, since a very similar theme in 3/4 time occurs in a Ballada in Karel Sebor's opera The Templars in Moravia premiered in 1865, which Smetana knew well.
(the S in Sebor's name should have an accent, but I cant easilly get it here.) Thats on page 11 of the booklet. Meanwhile on page 7, Kurt Honolka writes
Das einpraegsame Hauptthema so-smetanaisch-tschechisch es klingt, ist aus einer uralten europaeischen Wander melodoe abgeleitet, die, zum beispiel im deutschen Kinderlied >>Alle meine Entchen<< und in der Nationalhymne des jungen Staates Israel wiederkehrt, die aber auch mit der motivschen Keimzelle von Smetanas Oper >>Dalibor<< verwandt ist.
(I've flattened the umlauts into "e"s and the typography on the Germanic quotation marks are slightly different.) The French notes don't mention the origins of the theme and the Italian notes are a translation of Honalka's German.
We've got enough evidence here to say that the theme was widely used in folk songs but it strikes me that actually calling the theme La Mantovana needs separate support and referencing.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 11:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
This is bit dated, as del Biado's authorship has since been established. "...>From Jewish-Music, 12/29/99 The tune is *much* older than "The Moldau" from Smetana's "Ma Vlast," and seems to have come from further west. This is what, as a musicologist, I have been able to discover about the origin of the "Hatikvah" tune: "Hatikvah"/"La Montovana" FAQ (first written and posted in June, 1997) The first known appearance of the "HaTikvah" tune was in an intermedio of 1608, performed during celebrations of a Gonzaga wedding in Mantua. Several composers collaborated on the music for this performance: they were Claudio Monteverdi, his brother Giulio Cesare Monteverdi, Giovanni Gastoldi, and Salamone Rossi. Which composer used the tune is not known, although the fact that there are other tunes also called by some version of the name "Mantovana," and that some of them are known to be by Gastoldi, is suggestive. (The lutenist James Tyler attributes it to Gastoldi on stylistic grounds, and that seems plausible to me.) There is no evidence that this music was a setting of a pre-existent tune rather than a new composition -- we simply don't know. The tune became very popular: it was used for Italian madrigals (Cataneo), solo songs ("Giuseppino"), guitar settings (Pico), instrumental settings in Renaissance style (Zanetti, Giamberti, anonymous), violin divisions [i.e., variations] (anonymous), trio sonatas (Marini), and was published in England in Playford's collections of country dances. It is not known where Smetana (1824-1884) got the tune, but he seems to have believed that it was a Czech folk tune. It is also not known for sure where Naftali Herz Imber (1856-1909) got the tune, to which he wrote only the words (being a poet, not a composer). Edith Gerson-Kiwi, in "Grove" (Vol. 9, p. 359), refers to the tune as a "Romanian folksong." It is quite possible that Imber simply took the tune from the "Moldau" movement of Smetana's "Ma Vlast" (composed in 1874), and no evidence whatsoever that he did not do so. Hope Ehn <ehn (at) world(dot)std(dot)com> (M.M., music history, New England Conservatory; " - Galassi ( talk) 20:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
The recordings posted are perhaps free, but of highly dubious quality to say the least; if you can pass it through a proper wikipedia vote, be my guest. Until then, forget it.
Changed it back. Unfortunately, the "I'm a little tea pot" theme in the Moldau is one of those things that is so obvious and trivial that it is apparently beneath scholarly mention these days in anything google-searchable, like the fact the earth is round.
And yes, having been here for years and years, I know one can be challenged on the spherocity of the earth too. Unfortunately, the evidence for the latter is only indirect, whil one has only to listen to the moldau. However, there are lots of mentions on-line. Suggest it be left with a "citation-needed" tag so hopefully somebody can cite the obvious. Drjem3 ( talk) 21:31, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm sure I've also seen this as "Z českých luhův a hájův." Would that be a slightly archaic version (from Smetana's time, perhaps)? Kostaki mou ( talk) 23:55, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Má vlast. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:04, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
If multiple translations are to be used, normally only the one relevant to the current localization should be mentioned. i.e. why is there mention the german eqivalant in the English article? Is there some data to show that its a frequently used title in english speaking countries? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:1000:5710:69B:351A:195C:5BFC ( talk) 18:32, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
I've always heard it translated as My Homeland, but I see it's now been changed to My Fatherland, which I also think is somewhat undesirable. Are there any sources to guide this? Thanks. Martinevans123 ( talk) 23:00, 22 January 2021 (UTC)