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? Alexander 007 08:05, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
There's no reference on the article, and the only google hits about it correspond to wp and copies of it. Also, the article has appeared translated in several wp, but by adhoc users, who have just wrote this single article... -- 83.35.138.2 11:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
It looks like a hoax, in which case it qualifies for speedy deletion. Searching in CSA Linguistics and Language Behavior Abstracts for 'lutescan', 'lutesc*', 'lutes*' or 'mysia' returns nothing; same for Bibliographie Linguistique online. If nothing real comes up I'll delete it tomorrow. — mark ✎ 16:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, thanks to Mark Dingemanse for alerting me to this interesting dilemma: Is this a hoax or not? When I first linked to this page (and fixed a typo in it) on December 11, it did not occur to me it might be a hoax (even though I had never heard of this language before) and here's why. I had linked to this page from Mysia. The article on Mysia — a region of ancient Asia Minor whose existence is not in question, although just what language or languages were spoken there, and at what times, is not quite clear — refers to this Lutescan language. The Mysia article currently says: "There are also a small number of references to a Lutescan language indigenous to Mysia in Aeolic Greek sources citation needed."
Now, if you review the history of the Mysia article, you will see that the reference to the Lutescan language has been added and removed more than once. For example, on May 16, an anonymous user removed it with this comment: There is no such thing as a "lutescan language". But the next day Radetzky22 restored it with this comment: Numerous references to a Lutescan language exist on other websites. I think we can be certain that it did exist.
The reference seems to have been originally added by Dbachmann on March 11 with the following text: "There is a small number of references to a Lutescan language indigenous to Mysia in Aeolic Greek sources citation needed"
In my experience, Dieter A. Bachmann of Zürich is no troll, so I'd be willing to take his word for it. However, it seems to me that either he or Radetzky22 or someone should provide more information on those Aeolic Greek sources. The coastal region of Aeolis in Asia Minor directly bordered on Mysia, so, if there are indeed Aeolic Greek sources that refer to a Lutescan language being spoken in Mysia, then clearly this article is legitimate.
In any case, the question to ask is not so much: Is this article a hoax or not?, but rather: Is the reference to a Lutescan language in the Mysia article legitimate or not? From the latter flows the former. Pasquale 17:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
When you talk about Dieter A. Bachmann you are wrong. In fact, what he did was: 1) removing all information from Lutescan language. 2) Redirecting it to Mysia, with the comment doesn't exist [1] 3) adding the only profitable line from the article to the Mysia one, with a fact template [2] . So, in fact, it really looks as he also thought it was a hoax. I'll ask him. -- 81.39.168.230 20:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
sorry about the semiprotection -- I might lift it soon, the troll that made me do this seems to have left for now. On topic, I dimly remember the edits discussed above. I did not verify this and decided to leave a line in article space graced with a {{ fact}} tag to inspire people to look after this. Which seems to be happening now :) I've never heard of the langauge, and I put to your consideration [3] and [4]. dab (𒁳) 11:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I have returned from Sevilla and I have the reference as I promised. The book is: Titchener, J.B. (1926), "Synopsis of Greek and Roman Civilization", Cambridge MA. The paragraph says:
"There are also Aeolian sources pertaining to a Lutescan language spoken in the Hellespontica area of Mysia. Although information on this language is sparse, it is possible that it may have been an Anatolian language, owing to certain phonetic similarities. The people who spoke it were largely nomadic, only settling on the shores of Lake Artynia ca. 1200BC. It is not thought that they reached as far as the southern Pergamene area, although this may have been possible. Once settled they were soon absorbed into the neighbouring Phrygian culture and the language died out, leaving very little trace. It is thought to have had little, if any, influence on the Phrygian language."
I hope this resolves this argument. The book is very rare and this is probably why it was not referenced before. Until next time I will try to find more sources and refernces to this language. Jordi25 23:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The only reference in this article (Titchener, J.B. (1926), "Synopsis of Greek and Roman Civilization", Cambridge MA) was added by User:Jordi25 who claims it is very rare. He begins by saying "I ask for the apologies, my English is not good." Looking at his contribs, he didn't edit for 4 years and then created a fairly negative biography of a controversial British political figure, in perfect English. Whilst I'd like to assume good faith, alarm bells are ringing here, especially as the IP above casts doubt on whether this Titchener book exists. -- Physics is all gnomes ( talk) 00:07, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Look, if the reference is reported accurately (I don't have access to it), we still just have one author back in 1926 coining this term, never again used in the 90 years since then. "Lutescan" must be an adjective formed after some placename. Latin "lutesco" means "to become muddy". In fact, lutescans is part of the binominal name of some plant species. If there was ever a tribal people of "Lutescans", google books certainly doesn't know about it. They must be known by some other name. Their "Lutescan language" is clearly unknown, but the title can redirect to the article about the people provided we find out what they are usually called. -- dab (𒁳) 09:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
I am beginning to think that Titchener, writing at a time when readers were still expected to have a full classical education, was in good faith just referring to "a language of the swamps", just converting to Latin on the fly a Greek term like λιμνήτης. So what he is possibly saying is that there are epigraphic references to a "language of the marshlands" which he thinks may have been Anatolian. So this would just be an early reference to the Mysian language. I'll make this page a disambiguation pointer to things called "marshy" in Latin. -- dab (𒁳) 10:30, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
JB Titchener was apparently a member of the "Illinois Greek Club" in the 1920s and 1930s. His Synopsis is all but forgotten. It was a booklet of 31 pages and probably self-published (what he did do was co-edit Onosander with Loeb in 1923). However he came round to calling the Mysian language "Lutescan" (a misprint? an error?), I suggest we can safely ignore it. -- dab (𒁳) 11:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
FWIW John Bradford Titchener autor of The manuscript-tradition of Plutarchs̕ Aetia Graeca and Aetia romana 1924 has an entry in Biographical dictionary of North American classicists ed. Ward W. Briggs, American Philological Association 1994. (doesn't change that the name of the language is a typo or mistake). In ictu oculi ( talk) 00:38, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
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? Alexander 007 08:05, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
There's no reference on the article, and the only google hits about it correspond to wp and copies of it. Also, the article has appeared translated in several wp, but by adhoc users, who have just wrote this single article... -- 83.35.138.2 11:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
It looks like a hoax, in which case it qualifies for speedy deletion. Searching in CSA Linguistics and Language Behavior Abstracts for 'lutescan', 'lutesc*', 'lutes*' or 'mysia' returns nothing; same for Bibliographie Linguistique online. If nothing real comes up I'll delete it tomorrow. — mark ✎ 16:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
First of all, thanks to Mark Dingemanse for alerting me to this interesting dilemma: Is this a hoax or not? When I first linked to this page (and fixed a typo in it) on December 11, it did not occur to me it might be a hoax (even though I had never heard of this language before) and here's why. I had linked to this page from Mysia. The article on Mysia — a region of ancient Asia Minor whose existence is not in question, although just what language or languages were spoken there, and at what times, is not quite clear — refers to this Lutescan language. The Mysia article currently says: "There are also a small number of references to a Lutescan language indigenous to Mysia in Aeolic Greek sources citation needed."
Now, if you review the history of the Mysia article, you will see that the reference to the Lutescan language has been added and removed more than once. For example, on May 16, an anonymous user removed it with this comment: There is no such thing as a "lutescan language". But the next day Radetzky22 restored it with this comment: Numerous references to a Lutescan language exist on other websites. I think we can be certain that it did exist.
The reference seems to have been originally added by Dbachmann on March 11 with the following text: "There is a small number of references to a Lutescan language indigenous to Mysia in Aeolic Greek sources citation needed"
In my experience, Dieter A. Bachmann of Zürich is no troll, so I'd be willing to take his word for it. However, it seems to me that either he or Radetzky22 or someone should provide more information on those Aeolic Greek sources. The coastal region of Aeolis in Asia Minor directly bordered on Mysia, so, if there are indeed Aeolic Greek sources that refer to a Lutescan language being spoken in Mysia, then clearly this article is legitimate.
In any case, the question to ask is not so much: Is this article a hoax or not?, but rather: Is the reference to a Lutescan language in the Mysia article legitimate or not? From the latter flows the former. Pasquale 17:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
When you talk about Dieter A. Bachmann you are wrong. In fact, what he did was: 1) removing all information from Lutescan language. 2) Redirecting it to Mysia, with the comment doesn't exist [1] 3) adding the only profitable line from the article to the Mysia one, with a fact template [2] . So, in fact, it really looks as he also thought it was a hoax. I'll ask him. -- 81.39.168.230 20:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
sorry about the semiprotection -- I might lift it soon, the troll that made me do this seems to have left for now. On topic, I dimly remember the edits discussed above. I did not verify this and decided to leave a line in article space graced with a {{ fact}} tag to inspire people to look after this. Which seems to be happening now :) I've never heard of the langauge, and I put to your consideration [3] and [4]. dab (𒁳) 11:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I have returned from Sevilla and I have the reference as I promised. The book is: Titchener, J.B. (1926), "Synopsis of Greek and Roman Civilization", Cambridge MA. The paragraph says:
"There are also Aeolian sources pertaining to a Lutescan language spoken in the Hellespontica area of Mysia. Although information on this language is sparse, it is possible that it may have been an Anatolian language, owing to certain phonetic similarities. The people who spoke it were largely nomadic, only settling on the shores of Lake Artynia ca. 1200BC. It is not thought that they reached as far as the southern Pergamene area, although this may have been possible. Once settled they were soon absorbed into the neighbouring Phrygian culture and the language died out, leaving very little trace. It is thought to have had little, if any, influence on the Phrygian language."
I hope this resolves this argument. The book is very rare and this is probably why it was not referenced before. Until next time I will try to find more sources and refernces to this language. Jordi25 23:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The only reference in this article (Titchener, J.B. (1926), "Synopsis of Greek and Roman Civilization", Cambridge MA) was added by User:Jordi25 who claims it is very rare. He begins by saying "I ask for the apologies, my English is not good." Looking at his contribs, he didn't edit for 4 years and then created a fairly negative biography of a controversial British political figure, in perfect English. Whilst I'd like to assume good faith, alarm bells are ringing here, especially as the IP above casts doubt on whether this Titchener book exists. -- Physics is all gnomes ( talk) 00:07, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
Look, if the reference is reported accurately (I don't have access to it), we still just have one author back in 1926 coining this term, never again used in the 90 years since then. "Lutescan" must be an adjective formed after some placename. Latin "lutesco" means "to become muddy". In fact, lutescans is part of the binominal name of some plant species. If there was ever a tribal people of "Lutescans", google books certainly doesn't know about it. They must be known by some other name. Their "Lutescan language" is clearly unknown, but the title can redirect to the article about the people provided we find out what they are usually called. -- dab (𒁳) 09:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
I am beginning to think that Titchener, writing at a time when readers were still expected to have a full classical education, was in good faith just referring to "a language of the swamps", just converting to Latin on the fly a Greek term like λιμνήτης. So what he is possibly saying is that there are epigraphic references to a "language of the marshlands" which he thinks may have been Anatolian. So this would just be an early reference to the Mysian language. I'll make this page a disambiguation pointer to things called "marshy" in Latin. -- dab (𒁳) 10:30, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
JB Titchener was apparently a member of the "Illinois Greek Club" in the 1920s and 1930s. His Synopsis is all but forgotten. It was a booklet of 31 pages and probably self-published (what he did do was co-edit Onosander with Loeb in 1923). However he came round to calling the Mysian language "Lutescan" (a misprint? an error?), I suggest we can safely ignore it. -- dab (𒁳) 11:06, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
FWIW John Bradford Titchener autor of The manuscript-tradition of Plutarchs̕ Aetia Graeca and Aetia romana 1924 has an entry in Biographical dictionary of North American classicists ed. Ward W. Briggs, American Philological Association 1994. (doesn't change that the name of the language is a typo or mistake). In ictu oculi ( talk) 00:38, 28 April 2011 (UTC)